May 12, 2025 — Police Oversight Panel Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:03] All right. Uh I think we are online and recording. Welcome everyone. Uh we'll call this meeting to order. We'll start with our land acknowledgement. Uh we acknowledge the Arapjo and Cheyenne tribes, the traditional custodians of the land on which the police oversight panel and Boulder Police Department operate and pay respects to their elders, past and Um, want to welcome our panel members and any members of the public, the community, and the media. Have anyone with us today? Thanks so much for being here. We're happy you're here. Um, please use the Q&A. If you have questions as we move through the meeting, um, we'll answer questions in the chat. Um, but any longer questions or comments you're can save for the public comment session which will happen hopefully about halfway through the

[1:00] meeting. Um, so we'll get to that in just a bit. Uh, and just a couple notes for other panel business. If you need to or would like to submit a complaint, um, you can do that on our website. Um, we can put the address in the chat for you. Give Selena, you're up for doing that. Um, you can also email the panel anytime. Uh, we'd love to hear from you. Police over panel bouldercol.gov. Um, if you have questions or suggestions or um any requests for for topics for us, we'd love to hear from you on that as well. Um, and a final reminder, our meetings are posted to the website, so you can watch any past meeting recordings later. And uh with that I will start our roll call. Are you able to help us with that? So I just went to the

[2:04] panelists roll. Okay. Absent. Jason here. Donnie present. Bill Alan here and here. All right, we have more than a quorum. So, we'll continue uh just a quick overview of our agenda to give everyone an idea of where we're heading today. Um we'll start by briefly checking over the minutes from our last meeting. Um then we'll go to our community outreach and engagement update

[3:00] from our committee chairs. We'll talk a little bit about our event at the Trident last month. Um then we'll go to Sherry for the independent police monitor reports. Uh following that, we'll go to kind of our panel updates and special business. We'll talk about the case review training manual. Um scheduling a second session. Um we'll talk through some training debrief and finally talk about our strategic workshop which is planned for May 17th. Um, and we will touch on some items having to do with our email responses. Um, after that, we'll go a public comment, uh, followed by likely a closed session. If panel members vote to do that, and we'll proceed into regular business, we'll do case review voting, um, assign cases, uh, and then close out for the night. Um, so, anyone have any additional agenda items or would anyone

[4:01] like to that we approve the agenda? Great. All in favor of approving the agenda. Anyone against? Great. Agenda is approved. Um, with that, we'll go to the minutes from last month. Does anyone have feedback or comments or changes from the minutes or do we have a motion to approve? So, move. Great. Uh, all in favor of approving the minutes. Great. Anyone against? All right. Minutes are approved. Um, with that, we'll go over to our community outreach and engagement team. Okay. So, um, we have a meeting on Thursday. 30. We'll be talking about some other events. Um, mostly more up and

[5:04] trying it with chiming. So I thought it went really well. So thanks for setting that up. He's the person in charge of he was really great to work with and the place cleared out when we started but then people came and filled it back in and there was a lot of really good questions I thought and people were pretty engaged in the conversations would love I know that you just end as well. Sure. Um I agree. I thought it was great. Um it was really smooth. They were great hosts. You guys did a fantastic job planning that out into the community. I thought

[6:01] it was really successful. Um, we had some great questions from community members, um, and some great sort of like suggestions for areas they were interested in that I think can help inform some of our strategic workshop items. Um, yeah, was great. That answered some tough questions, some good process questions. What was a tough question that got some question? Well, we had some like tough questions that were a little outside of our curfew as we always tend to get. Um, but in terms of like what was kind of in the range of stuff we could address. Um, we got some questions about policy changes that we've been able to suggest and actually kind of successfully achieve. um which gave us some good ideas for we're planning on putting all those in our annual report.

[7:00] that was helpful to know that that's like of course that's something you want to see not just know that we're out there reviewing pieces and um making recommendations but like what are we actually achieving with this group um how is what we're doing changing what we're seeing about yeah there were some people who were there specifically because they saw that it was on like the the schedule of events for Trident. So they there's that table in front. So they came with with questions and I talked with them afterwards. Um so yeah, that was that was really nice to know that there were people who saw it and wrote it on their own calendar and specifically to attend and ask questions. Yeah, it was especially because we had not advertised it in the same thing. So um that was um so that was great. that they try to actually

[8:00] advertising because otherwise it would have been um but yeah it was good that also students were were there they were working on their thing but they were listening as well um and so I thought that was good um I appreciated the fact that Kenne was there although I'm not sure that it did anything with I know that Jackie had to have like um something afterward like couldn't go get to it. So maybe I'll get back to you and see. But yeah, thank you for reminding me of that and thank you for organizing it. I had I was not familiar with the tri so I once it was happening this makes a lot of sense as a good place. So thank you for that idea and for initiating it and I think it might be good to do it on the regular basis there. It's relatively easy. uh and they know us have really

[9:01] conversations like that. So maybe it might be like something that we can do like maybe twice a year or something like that. I I was wondering I think I you said you need the the recording person but did you end up getting any pictures from from her from Jackie? Yeah. No, they didn't. I I they were going to send in recordings. So, um I'll reach out to them. Okay. Well, if you if you do have any other information I would love to ask because I realize I Yeah. Um yeah, I'll uh I'll call you. Anything you think we should do? Advertising. You like a sense how many people showed up just for that? probably five people. Well, two, four,

[10:00] five, maybe like seven. I think it was on the like on the city like event website, but I don't think people really look at that. You see it? You see it on the website? So, it was on the city um like there's like a city events website that it was on that I look at for other things. It was on there, but again, it's not it's not something that I, you know, think public typically goes and looks at as opposed to looking at like an Instagram or Facebook feed. Yeah. So, what would that look like if we were to market it? I think we could do like posters, you know? I mean, we did go around town and put posters in different places. Um I guess we could do also individually advertise it on our social media so we have links and then we should be putting it into

[11:02] it was in a newsletter. Okay. Was it I think I think the timing looked for that to be is like a citywide resource that would be for us. Um yeah, I mean I'm not Shannon the the person who's assigned to us from communications. she's the person who would know how to do that and I don't know what it takes to like get the um so BPD is super active on social media. So do you think that is something that the promote ask because they they they're super active Instagram and Facebook and people respond a lot to the posting. So maybe that would be you know that's a great idea because we didn't see our designated pio should probably

[12:01] um understand we have our designated did we submit it because they have a copy of the top I events. So that's something we should probably I know people watch look at those things about what's happening. So and I'm wondering also like community organizations um we should invite you know send it to the organizers or even to you know like EPA and Mstead um others like that. So I think maybe we should put our brains together to bring like a list of um of people organizations that we can market to places where I mean even having like a little image kind of so we can share our social media that

[13:01] is something that is more basic like Instagram like the image them in all and even advertising these meetings as well like the more the more that we continue to put ourselves out there weekly monthly then people will eventually look for it I don't think is there any advertisement for these meetings because they are open to the public they are they're posted at the daily camera they're in like the city's meetings every month or something but people but it's not like by itself That's what you're saying. Oh, yeah. Who knows? So maybe if we're all putting it on our socials and BPD's socials, then people see it. So we craft an email with everybody after a Thursday meeting about which groups that you're aware of, whether we start to build our own database and

[14:02] folks that we can just blast things out to. But really great first step. So, thanks very good um first opportunity and we'll just keep going. I think if we had had more people we would have been there for 20 hours. Oh yeah. The only thought I had was mostly like particularly but I like maybe us getting an idea of exactly what format of the event is and what that means for what we should prepare like a intro talking points and I should have and I we could have I could have used that side better. So maybe if we just we asked those questions. Did we know we were going to be like on stage with microphones like a panel? I didn't realize that and I'm sure that's on it was so it's it's a little bit about our how we function you

[15:02] and I functioning so differently like we were like let's flow with what what's given to us at the time. No, absolutely not. I need four days. So I apologize for that. I was like, "Okay, it's we're going to be talking to people and we're we'll blow with all that is." So, I apologize for that. This is why you guys are the chairs of the committee and well we'll make sure next time because you never know what questions. Yeah. So that was it and then we'll be building the connectors are finally

[16:00] reestablished. They have some meetings already scheduled. So we may not be able to have a joint meeting with them until August come together with them. So it's not just thing about how we'd like to interact with them as well. Yeah, that's it. And we Yeah, we'll talk about the different plans that Yeah, I think the invite's already 30. All right. Any other thoughts on community engagement outreach? All right, we'll go to if I may. I mean, I think an email about something that we're

[17:01] preparing for engagement that we're going to talk on Thursday, but our email or great point. You want to say anything about that tonight or do you want to save it for Thursday? Um, yeah, we're just going to wait till Thursday. Yeah, it's that very good addition. be ready to discuss monitors report for month of May 2025. Uh looking at uh case review data from April 2025, um there were zero uh case reviews completed. Um we have nine that are awaiting uh review and two of those are

[18:03] scheduled for the next two weeks that were completed. MI2 2025007 a commercial tenant and landlord attended mediation and engaged in a verbal altercation in the lobby. The landlord and his team exited the building and the landlord was closing the door behind him. The tenant followed and pushed against the closing door. Tenant contacted BPD and alleged that landlord slammed the door in her arm and provided photos of bruising to her arm. Officers interviewed involved parties and obtained the surveillance footage of the interaction at her left door. The surveillance footage clearly refutes the tenants's description of the altercation at the door. Um, and the left arm elbow was never slammed. It did not appear to contact any object. So the allegation against officer one rule one uh

[19:00] violation of general order 203 investigative responsibilities and case assignment failed to conduct a sufficient investigation. Uh I recommended that this be unfounded and the department agreed the finalation was unfounded. MI 205009 officers conducted a traffic stop on complaint vehicle due to not having a functioning license plate. During the stop, complaintant repeatedly remarked that officer one was harassing him by pulling him over. The evidence established that complainant's license plate light was not working and provided sufficient probable cause for conducting the traffic stop. Based on the fleet video footage, there is not support for complainant's allegation that officer 1's actions were intended to harass complainant. Officer one approached complainant's vehicle from the rear without observation of either the driver or the passenger. The monitor um observed officer one commit a traffic

[20:01] violation and BPD agreed to coach officer one of three. So allegation for officer one, rule five, police authority and public trust conducted a traffic stop absent probable cause. I recommended that it be unfounded and the department agreed. And for rule four, uh, respect for others harassment. I recommended that that be unfounded and the department agreed. Looking at some of our case statistics um for April 2025, uh the monitor classified 30 complaints. Of those, 13 were identified as misconduct investigations, one serious misconduct, two community inquiries, four community feedbacks, eight unspecified incidents, and two were referred referred to the conflict facilitation process, which is a mediation. I observed six interviews. There were zero critical incident scene responses.

[21:03] Um I deemed three cases thorough and complete and two cases were closed by um so as of May 8th the cases that are open between myself and um uh PSU are 41 cases. Of those 29 are classified, two of them were awaiting monitor classification and 10 of those were in uh PSU's preliminary investigation. I wanted to um share an update on the cases that remain open that were classified in 2015. Um so we have serious misconduct case uh 003. that case we are working on scheduling statements currently um MI2024-065 is in chain command review

[22:05] um MI2024-076 that is uh still in investigation for PSU um 078 is also in chain of command of review uh 082 the statements are ongoing um and and 083 we have have case review scheduled with a panel in the next week and 084 is also a chain of command group review. So hopefully several of these cases will either be closed or come to the panel in the next month or so for I wanted to provide an update on um a conversation that I was having with the the police department um starting last summer. uh this information is uh available to the panel in the SharePoint and it uh should be uploaded for the

[23:01] public to review. Um but basically last year uh in summertime through interviews with some police uh department members um I started asking them how how much how many years on the job they had and what their uh testimony and court experience was if they were relatively new officers. And the answers were basically zero zero uh court testimony or one time that they had testified in court. Um so I basically shared this information with the department recognizing that due to some of the situations in the Boulder criminal justice system, these officers aren't getting the normal feedback from states attorney and from the opportunity to testify in court. um which really pressure tests their not only their ability to testify but their report writing ability to make sure that they are uh getting that experience to make

[24:00] sure that their reports meet all the requirements that are going to be needed as we um upheld in court um and then the ability to testify. So, I brought that to the attention of BPD leadership and they um they were they're pretty agreeable and I asked for an official response from from Chief Redburn and he said that they are going to have training with the officers on courtroom test. It's going to be done by the um district attorney's office and that's scheduled for a quarter three training. following up with what actually happens in order. Um some of the um community engagement or other events that uh I was involved with in my month of April. Um I attended the Boulder County District Attorney's training for BPD um on the fourth and fifth amendment. And this was

[25:01] an eight-hour training that came about um in part because of recommendations from uh from the oversight system. So all of the officers of the department received that training. It was very informative. I also attended the training for the sergeants um regarding the Spanish traffic uh form that was uh shown to us at the chief. Um, we did uh uh PP panel training, uh panel case review training, and I presented at uh New Vista High School to their street law class. Uh I also attended uh Dr. Lord's declaration of respect that public presentation. uh tabled at the CU civic engagement event, attended the Boulder Climate Justice Forum, um and shared the stage with y'all at the Trident uh engagement event, and I also visited the Denver Office of the Independent Monitors to

[26:01] speak with some of the department heads about how they are handling issues. Thanks for your question. [Music] Interesting conversation. Um, yeah, they have I mean I knew this before, but listening to their community engagement, they have a very robust for community engagement. Um so they they do a lot of uh events with you like hours long training um that has like know your rights and oversight incorporated into it and they also their um Denver Police Academy recruits they they have a two week period not just with oversight but where they take them to some of the different neighborhoods to explain the history of different neighborhoods um and some of the

[27:00] cultures of different neighborhoods in in Denver. So, it seems like before the the Denver police get into what you think of this as more traditional police academy, they have more of a get to know Denver and these are some of your expectations. And the the monitor's office, I think, has a half day or a day. Um when uh we were at Napole last time um we uh we were talking with them like she definitely and kind of just helped them um and and then just um just talk with them and just learn from them as well because they have so many great ideas and so many great ways of doing things. I think it would be great for us to whoever to go there and

[28:02] actually I could definitely if you want to I can reach out to monitoring member or maybe I'll something on Is it gave me enough time to write down your later? I I think you know how to reach taking a little bit. Um, okay. Next on our agenda, panel updates. Yes, figures adoc items. Uh, so first, uh, of those is case review, training, manual, and

[29:01] scheduling the second session. Um, I would just like to share that I think was April 21st. I think we had um, our consultant Baron Muskin put together a training which many of you attended. I was using a piece from from Chicago. Do you plan on doing a second one? Um I guess this actually folds into the strategic workshop. Bring your calendars. Um because I I hope one of the things that we need to do is come out with some dates that might work for scheduling that second that second review meeting. If you did the first time, you don't need to do the second. In fact, probably um yeah, so my plan was also to I belatedly realized I should have invited the alternates to to join also.

[30:02] So for that second one, once we once we figure out a time that works with the panel members who have limited case review experience and miss the first one, then we'll get that on the calendar and I'll probably um next we have April 11th MPD training degree. It's a month already. It's like two years. All right. So um any thoughts uh anyone wants to share on how that training went you were the person who was probably the the most new experience. Yeah, I thought it went really well. It was really interesting to hear their way of approaching um situations um and how they look at force and

[31:01] understanding the the thought process that goes into how they classify an individual, what force comes with that classification. Um yeah, I thought it was good. thought it was really good to get people understanding that we did not because we even though we think we're building in time for questions, we never build enough time for questions. So, u defensive tactics is still something that's going to be tied at the police department. Um I have I have a there have been several requests from the panel. We can also we'll talk more about that on Saturday. Um, but I expect several different training models. The most important being defensive tactics at what about the the two of you who this wasn't your first time? Um, yeah. I just want to add that as

[32:00] um I want to say as usual but once again I think that for me the the theme is how differently we understand deescalation and um and I don't mean any criticism on this but rather like kind of being aware that the effort needs to be put on aligning those you know kind of the use of the for escalation and and of course for for for Boulder PD the escalation have kind of one meaning for members of the comm community the escalation looks entirely different so I think having that conversation again and kind of the understanding I think we're reaching a point where um it was clear at least in our conversation with Alistister that that they they also see how that um there's a difference in the use of the language So that for me is is something that we can build upon moving forward. I think

[33:02] like the conversation with Alistister at the end was like we need to find the police department needs to find a different ways of a new term for what is deescalation for them because they realize that not only in the community but everywhere else like everywhere else outside of it's called something else but it's it's a means something else. And so deescalation doesn't work. But but truth finding a term that truly works for what it is for is more complicated. And so that's where people together for what it is. I'm sorry. I think not I think BPD and law enforcement use deescalation in a consistent manner. Yeah.

[34:02] Exact. Yeah. Yeah. So basically even when BPD is responding with CERT which is the crisis response team so they are trained mental health professionals for them deescalation is a is a nonviolent approach right but for PD the escalation might be holding someone you know to the ground and preventing further engagement right so that that's kind of different so then when we talk about the escalation for for uh law enforcement is that of course we're discating and for us it's like well you're not disc this is not discating like putting ha for someone. So it's not just the word, it's always the whole concept and it's the tone and everything else that goes with it. How they view what they're training how they view the escalation and and I think mostly is that the the misalignment it's the misalignment of

[35:01] the of the the word they use is not in agreement with what everybody else one is physical and the other one's emotional. Yeah. And so it's not it's not the concept like we're basically we're not asking the police necessarily to be doing the work that certain is doing right but we're if they're going to take someone down and if the escalate if what is now deescalation is taking down someone and putting them in handcuffs so that they cannot harm anyone else that's valid but it cannot be deescalation because that person is very escalated and we have not agreed done violence, you know, by putting handouts on that person. And so it's really a matter of throwing a sp like it's it's really a matter of finding the right turn. Like it's not always a take down. It's not always, you know, but it is um

[36:02] uh I I just had a term, but it's it's really a So you're describing with power over. Okay. So you're so you're describing force like like the same. So finding a different word. How does that actually work though? Because the action is still the same. Yeah. I mean we're not trying to change the action. We're trying to change the meaning of the word deescalation. Because when police say to the police to the community members. We deescalated the situation. We think that, oh great, everybody care time, you know, everybody's happy and everybody is able to go their merry way, but that's not the case. That person might be in jail, right? So, when they're using the term deescalation, we understand something completely different. See, that's where I'm I'm I'm confused

[37:02] because when police use the word deescalation, I automatically know what they mean. You know that? Yeah, I know that it's going to involve some force and they're basically they're taking control of the environment by any means possible. I'll just say right the white community in Boulder doesn't understand the same thing. Deescalation is really let me talk to you. Tell me why you're in a crisis. Um, I mean this or this, but it's it's really like I don't think that when I think of when I think of police, when I think of counselors or teachers, you know, or I'm not even thinking white community. I'm thinking any conversation or anything that we have when we talk about deescalation in a community, it does mean something different. I understand that. But when you think about that with the police, I automatically think there's going to be force involved. And most people that I

[38:00] know think that that are white as well. Most people really they think it's going to mean something else with the police involved. That's interesting. I didn't know that. It seems to me that I went to the training last year and you know what struck me was they take sometimes an hour to get a situation under control without having to they do everything except lay them down or bring them cuffs or whatever they do. Yeah. And that was what was so impressive to me is they're very patient. The Boulder PD are very patient based on this training that I went through. But at the but at the same time, you know, if we're trying to figure out how this sector of this sector of the of the community looks at it versus another sector of the community, seems to me that's a a good rather than us sitting around thinking about this. What about if we, you know, sounds to me like a focus group question about uh what is

[39:00] what is show of force or what is DS to do anything. I'm just like we can if we think about a word we can suggest it. But see I don't think it's just a word. I think it's more of a story. Yeah, I think you have to come up with a better story about it because you know I have a totally have total different perspectives about that wer brown and um I don't get offended at all when I in fact even when I went on this police ride with this guy we had to de deescalate a couple situations and there were a lot of words involved with a lot yeah there's a lot of talking and there's a lot of at one pointing can we just stop talking and let's get out of here because we were there for like 45 minutes to an hour and I'm like I kind of think like I think the result is the same deescalation but I think like maybe it's just more descriptive whether it's verbal deescalation or some kind of a physical deescalation. So maybe just like an

[40:02] addition to the the deescalation word like it was verbal or or andor physical. is that I mean again I brought up the the concept because that's the conversation that we had at the end of the of the training with Alistister and and I think that there there is a common understanding that the use of deescalation by sir or by some community members is different than the use of the word deescalation for police and acknowledging that that might be a misalignment there is important because then when we talk with community members or when the police said, "Oh, we're escalating the situation and actually it doesn't look anything like uh the escalation for me that I work in victim advocacy." Um we can we can get to to a shared understanding of what we're talking about. So it's we're not

[41:01] challenging how anyone is doing anything. were just acknowledging that the use of the term dees the escalation might be different and sometimes might lead to misunderstanding and and I think that was for me that what I I'm trying to bring up from that is that acknowledging that is a huge step forward because then we're not talking about pears and pears and you're talking actually about strawberries and oh yeah the pears no we now know what we're talking about and we acknowledge there's difference and we can talk That's what I think like just adding Yeah. something as simple as adding like whether it's verbal deescalation versus some some of physical deescalation. Yeah. And I think if people if you say physical deescalation I think people might under like automatically understand that they had to you know put their hands on somebody to to get them to deescalate. Yeah. As opposed to they they talked this person down out of their whatever state they were in to

[42:00] more calm demeanor. And to that point also we we can acknowledge that we may have different expectations from the escalation. So for an incident ED might take two hours in the escalating situation while for me the escalate someone will should be you know we shouldn't be here five hours trying to solve this right so so I I think that the the the in my perspective um that acknowledgement is is a huge step forward you know we don't need to fix it we don't need to define things in a different way we just need to acknowledge that people refer to you know things um same word different meaning and and then we can build from there and we see that in complaints you know what do you want to build from there um just a sh understanding you know so I'm not questioning what they're doing

[43:00] challenging the use of the word deescalation just acknowledging that for me deescalation is a different thing and they are using it in a different way you And then what do we build from there? Um I has a common understanding that there are two different situations and different ways of using that word like at least once the community understands that deescalation is this and maybe physical deescalation is that or any other word then we we can actually start talking to each each other and understanding exactly what we're talking about because last year when we went through the training and they showed us the escalation on the mat, you know, I was shocked and I wasn't because I just figured that these are police, they're coming in to do something and if if the community,

[44:03] whoever they're coming to um arrest or deescalate or whatever, if they're offering any sort of resistance, what is their what is their um what are they supposed to do? Cuz that was the Matt scene because I was in there with you. Yeah. So that the person was offering resistance so they were deescalating in there with their badges and guns and everything else. No one got shot in that in that in that scene in that you know but what are people expecting if someone's offering resistance? What does deescalation mean? Not that I were expecting any other actions. It's that we're expecting not to do that work in particular. Okay. And then I've talked to lawyers who are doing criminal law, right? And when I said, do you know that what the definition of deescalation means for the police? They were actually shocked. They were like, oh, you're right. I need to pay attention to that because that's not

[45:01] the way they use it in Kola. And so that to me is really telling that even lawyers don't have the same definition, you know, and so that's that's why the word is important. Right. Okay. I understand now. I understand what you're saying. Yes. There when you put when you put attorneys in it for criminal defense, if they're not on the same page for you, then yeah, I understand that they should definitely be aligned. We got a little bit off with um the community part of it because the community we I don't know why it won't be confused there because their experiences. Chico has his hand up. T I was going to say that for for our purposes maybe the way forward would be to like somebody suggested that maybe we have the distinction of verbal versus physical deescalation. Would that suffice?

[46:06] I think it's not for us to solve this issue. I think we're just bringing it up to everybody's awareness. Alistister and um someone else who was there I forget who it was were talking about they need for themselves but we need to rethink how they use this relation so I don't think I don't think it's for us if we have an idea we can always suggest it but it's not something for us to necessarily work on but it's something to keep in mind and to pay attention to as we move forward and we might see um changes as as um Sterling was was suggesting, you know, um the alignment is important. So, it's a great thing that they're actually thinking about um strategizing or working on on finding

[47:00] uh a term or an explanation of um what that process The only other I think I would add is I don't think it's really uh only specific to law enforcement or like physical deescalation is I think I know like in schools um like it's called deescalation to to physically grab a student who is acting out to get them to try to calm down. Same thing in in hospital settings to physically grab a patient to their end goal is to deescalate them. So it's not specific to law enforcement that has that. No, I'm actually really interested in looking into the different ways. But again, I think just a little bit more descriptive might make really just recognizing like language that there's perceptual and actualization differences when we're

[48:01] talking about. We just need to be really clear what we're talking about in which scenario so that people who aren't sure what we're talking about police escalation. It could be something physical versus we're talking covering the escalation. It's more just emotionalizing. So yeah, so I don't think there's anything for us to do. It's just everybody has different perceptions. I have maybe a different perspective. Um and one let me just say that I don't think anybody made this decision but the idea is that I think sometimes I I always looked at the escalation. What do you do in order to avoid using okay and I well I chances

[49:00] that does ultimately deescalate. Um I don't think that's what we're trying to get to. We're trying to get to something else tonight. So I guess we could say physical non-physical deescalation, but I would just rather deescalation use force. I think that's the indication. I think anything where they cross over um I know this is a word that is somewhat loaded but it starts to co the word not so and what I've read about is talking about what I've read about the escalation where it came from none of it had to do with they all had to do is creating an environment where the person who we're worried about will agree with law enforcement on their own that's not

[50:09] so it's good we don't have to solve for we just make suggestions I think it's just the awareness oh we know that they're might be talking about two different points. Yeah. Anyway, let's uh strategic workshop May 17th. So, this is Saturday. Saturday morning. I have a question about that. So, they're going to be on um on Zoom also or no? Yeah, it needs to be a public meeting. So, there was an act for Okay. I'll be able to zoom in. What's the time of it? Uh 9 to 9. Yes. Is that just for like uh the idea is

[51:03] that like you know breakfast coffee get settled. Um one important just logistical thing that I don't think I can say or type enough is that the farmers market is happening. So these parking lots are likely to be filled up in the garages, right? I'm just if you think you're going to come in like, you know, drive by and be in the building in 30 seconds, so it's going to be here. Yes. Yeah. Yes. We use some. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so this was brought up by uh co-chairs and is, you know, having just a having it be an agenda item, you know, in a monthly meeting doesn't really allow for the deeper conversations for longer term prioritization planning. Uh, so that's that's one of the the main reasons for having the having the the workshop. Um

[52:02] and the the like three takeaways um or the three like pillars of takeaways. Um one is uh training training goals. What the panel feels like they want training happen in the next 12 months, ways to make training better. Um and then community engagement also. what are some of our main community engagement goals for in this next 12 months? What does that look like? What does this panel participation minute look like? Um and then most importantly, what are priorities? Um what what are the things that the panel outside of just regular case reviews wants to work forward, develop a plan, um and then put resources towards them. So it's not just like oh I had an idea or I I read that some other place was doing this but

[53:00] being more thoughtful about it. Um so that project management app not on not on Saturday but moving forward you can say these are the you know one to however many things that the panel really wants to dedicate their limited resources. Is that encapsulated chairs? Y so bring your ideas and definitely uh feel free and if you have events that you think it would be that the panel should consider then that's that's a great opportunity. Oh I considered that under the priorities but yes absolutely for Next, this is our side

[54:02] panel. Email response. How are we talking? I can see that I can't even remember what this was because the panel was another conversation that came out of the code meetings. um because the panel has recently received complaintants who've reached out directly to the police oversight panel and trying to find a way that is realistic for you all to respond if you choose to. Um but also not um like I I looked into um the suggestion was made to see if they could get like an automatic response, you know, like someone should get back to you within like 72 hours. I just got the response today from the IT ticket I submitted which was like that functionality is not available. Um, so I think I need to try to email back and see if there is something along that way because um, like if everyone put their message

[55:01] set to that, then I would get like 11 out of office or automatic responses, but it's trying to figure out how the panel can be responsive to members of the public who reach out, but also give them, you know, the expectation that you're not going to get, you know, because it might take a while for volunteers to experience and then what the response should be. So that's my understanding. Yeah. To refresh. So basically there's two two two topics on when we receive the email. One is a timely acknowledgement that we received an email. Um two or three should say. Two is how long you will actually send a meaningful response other than thank you for emailing us, we'll see you. And three is coming up with a way of responding in a timely manner in a

[56:01] meaningful way when the whole panel is um emailed. So, um, is that what we were letting you from the group of I don't respond any and I figured if there is a responsible like a designated person that responds co-chair co-chair. So providers we have to respond but I guess um what we were we were we were talking about is that we respond in representation of the whole panel. So wondering if the panel would like a time frame to provide input like what if we you know don't agree or or are we okay just letting the coaches take the response in a smile way uh

[57:00] especially when there's a complaint I guess there is a difference and we know what to do with certain emails that when there is a complaint itself we would refer them to the process of filing a complaint uh send it to Sherry One of them was all about kind of sheriff. That's not even our purview. Yeah. One was just some of these random. Yeah. I think the question is like would you all like any sort of insight into or feedback on or any participation directly in that or are you okay? I think it traditionally has been the co-chair is just trying to respond off thread. We don't CC the whole panel. Are we allowed? Would that be an issue that was a PCC? That's not if you guys would like us to PCC you all on a response just yeah I think it would be nice for us to know what their response is so that it has

[58:01] responded at least first or like if we're putting it in your hands and because you're with the co-chairs if it's something that you think needs our attention like sharing kind of does is this something that the panel really needs to be a part of because all of that we have to meet it. No, you know, but if it's something that you think the whole panel needs to weigh in on, then maybe that's when you share it, but not all of them need to be shared. Yeah. I'm wondering if you could send us your response to the person for feedback and then and then we either we and say, you know, we're going to send it tomorrow, 24 hours. That's a kind of a question. I guess maybe I I like maybe this is again asking us to make some judgment calls so you guys would comfortable with this but maybe if it's relatively standard business like the two email you mentioned I responded to one of those

[59:00] and said like you're emailing us we appreciate it here's some info right um if it's standard business maybe we respond and we see you guys stay as as in the loop or as you know as much or as little as you Okay. But if it's something with some substance, we do a 24-hour only if you would like for you on a on a response. Is that would that kind of meet everyone's needs? Maybe. My fear is that we'll get so many we'll be inundated as a group so many emails that we'll have to figure out what's important emails, what aren't important. Kind of like those school emails that we get over and over and over again. So if you guys are in charge of that and we trust you to to do this three or two two of the two then send us the ones that that you feel like this really needs to be a panel thing other than that like the sheriff thing.

[60:02] Why would you send I don't want to see that because then I'm going to think it's important. Yeah. Then I'm opening up email that has nothing to do with anything but you handled it you know. Yeah. That's really what we're just hoping to get group consensus on. Peace is not overwhelming. Like we don't get I haven't yet anyway since joining as a chair. I haven't gotten chair only emails that would go back to you. So, it's really you guys have seen the pace and it would be one more response for those and we could always adjust if we don't but like I'm totally open to either of those good solutions based on what I have strong feelings not because I don't trust you but that person has been taken care of We see you on everything and not I don't want to have special status. I'm okay

[61:01] with that. I am really okay with that. You tell me you responded to a consult for the next month to set like let's can we try the BCC and then next meeting say this is more than helpful back up. Does that work? subject for you maybe. I mean maybe you could put like read if you want like like something before like or important. Yeah. Not important, you know. BCC I don't want to put that. Yeah. I don't think a member of the public will be pretty minimal and obtrusive. I think see how it goes. Yeah. Well, the word timely since we're using different words these days, that word timely and we know that we have to look at it and get back in a timely fashion. Sure. But if it doesn't say timely,

[62:03] we fill it up. Let's see how the next month goes. Um, okay. So, let's keep moving. We have public comment right now. So, I'm gonna Do we have members of the public? No. No. Okay. Well, I'm going to say um so uh every member of the public will be asked if they like to comment and uh unmute to um provide the comment. They will get two uninterrupted minutes to comment. If there's an interruption or loss of connection, we will stop the clock. Uh co-chairs will give a verbal notice at 20 seconds to the end. and um the city staff facilitator will mute the theater to uh panelists may offer short responses at the end of the comment and the co-chairs will pause after each comment to facilitate. Um I don't see any members

[63:03] so I think [Music] there's proof right okay yeah there's nothing perfect thank you um uh the panel will get to take a five minute break and we return to close session and after that um that should take about 25 to 30 minutes after um close session we'll be back with regular business case review voting and assignments and then we will be ready to adjourn. So um should we vote? Oh yeah. Yeah. Let's vote in the close session. The last one for close session. Okay. Vote to go. Wait. I'm sorry. Who seconded? Sorry. Okay. So, we're voting. Everyone

[64:01] in favor. Okay. We're good. Except for Anna Chico. Voting. Yes. Okay. Uh Okay. So, let's take five minute break. Uh and go to close session afterwards. How long is close session for? Uh 30 minutes. 30. Okay. We're back into um regular business and um we're going to do case review voting. Keep going. So, please. Okay. Panel members uh on SM 2025002. Sherry. Um Lizzy. Yes. Jason, yes.

[65:01] Not here. Curtis, yes. Chico, yes. Bill, yes. Alan, yes. AB, yes. Solidadan, yes. Milan, yes. Okay. MI 2025 010. Lizzy, no. Uh, Jason, no. Curtis, no. Chico, no. No. Alan, no. AD, no. Solidad, no. No. Okay. MI 202501. Lind. Yes. Uh Jason, this is the delayed debug one, right?

[66:03] Seal court records, right? Chico. No Alan. No abolad. No, no. Okay. Um, MI25 012. No. Jason, no. Curtis. Chico. No. Bill. No. Alan, no. A. No. Solid. No. Yes. MI 2025013. Lizzy, yes. Jason,

[67:00] Curtis, yes. No. Bill, Alan, no. No. Yes. Milan, yes. Is that yeses? Four yeses and five. Okay. Um, MI 202514. Lizzy, no. Jason, no. Curtis, no. Chico, no. Sorry, can you slow down? Oh, I can't write that fast. I'm sorry. Curtis, what was that? I'm sorry. Trio said, "No." Okay. Bill, no. Alan, no.

[68:00] A no. Solidar. No. Nan, no. Okay. Uh, MI25015. No. Jason, no. Curtis, Chico, no. Bill, no. Alan, no. AB, no. Solid. No. Miller, no. Okay. MI 20250. Yes,

[69:02] Jason. Chico. No. Bill, no. Alan, no. AB, no. Solid. No. And yes. All right. 2025 017. No. No Curtis. No no no no MI 2025018 Lizzy

[70:00] Jason Yes. No. No. Yes. Yes. Am I 2020? Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Um, it was yes. Five yeses and four nos. Okay. Am I 2025 019? No. Jason, no. Curtis, no. Chica, no. No. No.

[71:08] No. No. Yeah. Okay. Am I 20250 20? Jason, yes. Chica, yes. AB, yes. Yes. Yes. Am I 2024? 325 and 01.

[72:40] No Alan. No sorry Bill. Okay. Um

[73:01] um Dale I see am I 2025 022 Lizzy? Yes. Jason. No. Curtis. Chica. No Bill. Yes. Yeah. So I have NO2, MI18 and NI. Yes,

[74:08] I have a question. So, I voted yes on some of these because, you know, so for example, on this last one, there's a recommendation that officer one receive coaching. So, I presume that's something that you're going to suggest anyway. Okay. Did we vote on the three cases? Uh, okay. So on SM 2025002 can you repeat what are we doing there? Uh 002 FM SM 2025002

[75:01] I'm raising my hand. I assume I assume you are picking people who now do I didn't get what you said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean we're assigning. So we have 80 million. You can add me as well. Yes, you're in. Thank you. Thank you. uh on MI 20258. Okay. [Music] Yeah, but nobody else. I would actually like four on this just because Curtis's first one would be and

[76:02] I just don't know what the sequence of one general size of this one. [Music] Um, I think two of the bes Um yeah, it's just that we could like we could tailor some evidence of like if they're talking to witnesses or things like that, you know, like if we just focus on then it could be um but normally PS you provide you know

[77:02] so that's do you say one one more? I mean I can I would of course any other volunteer to accompany us. So, Curtis, myself. Okay, thank you. Uh, okay. Last case, MI 2025 020. Okay. Bill Milan AB of course the whole Okay again. So AB Curtis Milan Lizzy Lizzy Bill A and Curtis. I mean when

[78:01] when there are more than three we need three people minimum nature sheet but if there's a situation where we have you know seven people sign up someone did at that time okay as long as we have confirmations [Music] Yeah. That is not I would assume that the first one coming from this group of cases just because my experiences that the experience in other cases they pushed it. So that's probably the first one.

[79:00] Okay. So we will wrap up. Uh we need a motion to second. Okay. Bill and Mad. Thank you everyone. Have a great night. Thank you Chico for joining us. Thank you. See you Saturday. See you Saturday. Thanks for doing this 30. That is masterful. You did that really well. Oh my god. Okay. Thank you. But thank you for the brilliant end walking.