November 17, 2021 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:05] Okay we're recording. Well, welcome to the hab November meeting and delighted to see you all here. We will, I will call the meeting to order and we'll do a roll call. So I believe that and let's start with the Juliet. yeah. And Terry pumps. Not here yet and Jen. here. It is here let's see. Danny. Danny it. Oh there's Terry Terry you hear so tell you hear. Her i'm in. A good Okay, I believe we have a quorum. And we can proceed.

[1:01] it's fine the agenda. So tonight will be going through your agenda review that's Item number two here for the MIC minutes from October will have public participation with two members of the public. presence and then we have a really very interesting presentation on the east boulder sub Community plan. To giving that a good hour it's an important subject and we have two staff members here present that and then Madison the Board will be reading a mobile ad you White Paper draft primarily prepared by Jacques. A letter to Council that's do December 15 and we'll talk about next steps on middle income strategies and potential recommendations. is determined that our retreat to be a top priority for this board in 2022 we will set our December me being excited number seven a debrief and hope to be done by.

[2:02] Nine o'clock. Any questions. I do, I have a motion to approve the October 27 minutes. The second. Second. All in favor say Aye. So. we're up to public participation, and I believe we have mark is that the right name of first. Okay you're able to hear me now. Yes, mark for your three two to three minutes left wondering.

[3:05] Okay well thanks for doing this and I just stumbled on your company's existence, I had no idea there wasn't a jb and i'm really glad you exist, I think it's very much a group that's needed and, in fact. On group I belong to almost 40 years ago proposed that this group exist, even though it wasn't called this we called for something called the Community housing panel. Back in the 80s. At that time I was the director of the boulder tenants Union. And this was one of many proposals we had made to the City Council at that time, and unfortunately wasn't taken up until apparently just recently. And we had proposed that this Community housing panel with to deal with, amongst other things, affordable housing and, as you might guess tenant landlord issues.

[4:11] Since I just stumbled on your website I the group i've been looking at your your mission and your responsibilities to better understand what you are doing and. As as, at least as Michael knows i've spoken with Jay oh about an hour and a half ago, two hours ago, so I could get more information. About you all my initial motivation for contacting you all is. The recent and somewhat divisive local election. My observation is that it further revealed a growing divide within our community on housing and where it should physically go or not go. Who should build it, such as see you and who should be occupying it concerning the occupancy registration restrictions.

[5:09] But, regardless of which side, people were on there seemed to be a strong consensus that we have an affordable housing crisis and boulder needs affordable housing and I make that observation, based on. A huge number of remarks and next door, and of course letters together and guess the tutorials in papers. Combined with the national and statewide affordable housing crisis obviously boulders hardly unique. And the pandemic skyrocketing housing prices, it feels like this is one of the best opportunities i've ever seen to significantly address affordable housing and have a lot more public support for it than i've seen in the past.

[6:00] As, of course, you all know, boulder is the undisputed leader in creating affordable housing. With But even with a goal of 50 if we get to 15% we're only halfway there. there's really no way to build our way out of this crisis. or excuse me mark. Here, time is expired, but do you have a. summary you'd like or pose a question. yeah I didn't realize I taken that long all right, so what i'm really here to do is i'm want the issue of rent control to be considered by the ha be. We are group boulder tenants Union brought this issue up 40 almost 40 years ago we were the ones, unfortunately, who triggered this horrible ban on rent control statewide I have a lot more to say about that. But it is one of the biggest impacts on affordable housing, that the city can do, and I would like to see some serious discussion and, as I said, I have more to say about it, but my time is up, so i'm going to leave it there, for the moment.

[7:06] Okay well feel free to comment over the email or come back next month and add on to those comments I personally am aware of that issue and potential progress on it and it took a good topic for the board, so thank you for that comment. And I believe we have. Lynn siegel up next. You need videos and don't tell me it's not your responsibility you're catching hell from the public, this is not Okay, I need to know who i'm dealing with here. I need to know who mark like I know mark from 30 years ago, but I don't know because I can't see him i've got some image up there that says ancestral something I don't know what that means I don't know if he's a staffer if the city of boulder. When i'm trying, I really wish you'd stick to the issue and not attack the other speaker.

[8:06] i'm not attacking in well. don't understand. me when I disagree on just. about everything, Michael, but I am not attacking mark he's a friend of mine. Well then, you know, please, please. me that you, you have no business making that assumption you don't know anything about me and mark fair and if it's the same person even but I wouldn't know what I. Because there's no video that's not okay not Okay, do you people understand that absolutely not this could go on for decades of this virus and we need to see each other and know who we are now. We can't build our way out of it it's like mark said. So forget East boulder East boulder working group.

[9:01] apple at $1,000 a square foot on commercial you think that's going to help Michael is that going to help I don't think so this housing Advisory Board is a farce. a farce, the first thing you need to do is say land disposal refuse the land disposal for see you sound. that's the starter, to help make things to well you're not going to improve affordability in boulder but you're going to stabilize. Affordability in boulder and you're not going to do that by building these folder into a huge another city and you're not going to do that by building a city at seems out on a floodplain it's not going to happen. You shouldn't be doing that you should be doing everything you can to see that the land disposal is not approved. I thought for open space i've paid for it and i'm not giving it up to build a bunch of stuff on a floodplain in South boulder so see you can expand.

[10:07] We need to cap enrollment you know what the millennium harvest house yes 295 student housing housing units there with a four story for three feet, because they're on the floodplain. This is outrageous high in every corner you turn at folsom and spruce up in North broadway there is no way you're going to be in to even. touch affordability in this town, you need to stop already do you hear me stop building and you can't do it yourself pass it on to the planning Board and the Council stop over building this Community it's a small town it's not friggin New York City stop. Your comment to duly noted i'm afraid you're at a time.

[11:01] Okay, we are into our main presentation welcome Jean gotta and gene Sandton we will be hearing a presentation on the east folder sub Community plan, so I think you can go right into it. Wonderful Thank you Michael. As you said, gina and I are here to give you an update about our what we're calling our 60% draft of the sub Community plan, we were last here and discussed. scenarios and recommendations with this board last March and y'all had some really great feedback at that time for us that have been included and have helped shape, where we are with this draft i'm going to go ahead and share screen. This going on. Come on.

[12:02] Alright how's that. that's that's. Very good, so you all received a memo with an overview of our recommendations and many links back to the materials that we have available on the project website. And we've been sharing with Community Members over the past few weeks to get feedback we do have a few questions for the board that are really around. Your level of support for the approach and the recommendations in this draft plan, and also to give us very feedback at this point we're really seeking very actionable feedback to make changes and to that to that draft plan to flesh it out and get to that 90% draft early next year. Just as a reminder quick refresher where the boundaries are for the East builder sub Community plan and reminder that I know currently.

[13:02] There are a few approved unit housing units within the sub community, but really the only existing housing is the sun laws or a mobile home park that's just adjacent to the city limits, but in our area to. As I mentioned, well as and, as you know, because we've. been able to have to share updates with this board periodically through the life of this project our last time was in this middle orange time and in March, and now we are. In the implementation planning phase with Community engagement going on right now with an intention that we would love to get a plan adopted. In the first quarter of next year. Are what we're calling our 60% draft or really are the big ideas, the big moves. includes the description of the vision, a land use plan connections plan and as as I also mentioned the feedback at this point will help us refine to the final plan and really help flush out that implementation strategy.

[14:13] As you know, we had a. Robust engagement window earlier this year and then also this past the these past few weeks, we held a series of open houses for nearby residents property owners business owners. And then, also a Community event on Monday that was really interesting some small breakout groups, we have a. questionnaire up on be heard boulder with a lot of information in it, and currently and we're looking to probably close that window in the next week or so. And again, you all had an. update earlier this year about the. General areas of change and the intentions around mixed use.

[15:01] and saw some of the we were able to share our feedback at that point at that time to have. A lot of the. Communication from the Community where to focus on select areas changing to mixed use with a lot of interest in. ways to provide housing in this area. That is really compatible with in the areas where it's compatible with the industrial uses to make sure that we're working to continuing to keep the opportunities for business for our local businesses and these thriving industrial areas so getting to that vision of. The sub Community evolving into a place that really is integrated working industrial spaces, but emphasizing. The direction that we have in our COMP plan around 15 minute neighborhoods a better diversity of uses and ways to address our critical need for housing.

[16:05] we've heard we've honed into the areas of change to the these yellow yellow ones that you see on the map. The primary place, especially for housing. For the inclusion of new housing is that 55th and arapaho stationary that you see as number one. The two neighborhoods that were calling belmont park sides, both East and West some good opportunities for housing in those areas as well, and then with the flat iron business park really emphasizing there at this point, a few. sites for potential housing along 55th but the rest of the flat iron park really focusing more on changes that would round out that mix of uses adding commercial especially walkability so folks don't have to be in their cars, all the time.

[17:04] Okay, and we talked about this, and this board had a lot of interesting comments I was looking back through the notes today, it was I remember it being a very good conversation. Around really looking to find unit types defines you know look for the examples in other places that are doing innovative mixed use to be able to successfully. incorporate housing into some of these industrial areas again not focusing on all of the areas, especially those that have somewhat more messy or impactful. General industrial types of uses, but you know, looking back some of this boards comments about some of the office or other uses where there are pretty large parking lots gene will describe some of the mobility. Improvements and recommendations that may help us be able to really think about how we how we might differently use parking areas.

[18:03] You all talked a lot about who would be living in these units, and you know, we want to do more, more assessment and conversation around. The range of income incomes that are of folks that are working in the area and being able to make sure that we have a range of housing types and affordability levels in the ways that we have to try to guide that. let's see Okay, moving on a little bit more about each of these areas change we'll just touch on briefly. The 55th and arapaho station area this area that you see in yellow is that neighborhood transit oriented development so. we're really working to define these areas in the future development to take advantage of the coming bus rapid transit and. Mobility improvements that will be in the area, because of that so really they in the yellow and the orange areas that are the.

[19:01] places for the neighborhood to D and the innovation to God and the orange that would have some more residential opportunities. These these next series of slides are some images that are our consultants for the station area, and I have put together that help illustrate. The coming improvements and some of the potential building styles and types were that we might be able to see on this one, this will be looking across the intersection of 55th and arapahoe or you see some of the. Various amenities of that station station area. And this one is looking North on. With some. Of the improvements and then I think this one's over here, and I believe it's kind of stoker so really illustrating that mix of uses and more vibrant type of public realm recommendations that are included in the planet.

[20:11] The belmont Park, east and west neighborhoods we as you're seeing these range of different. Type place types, is what we're calling it's that little step between boulder belly comprehensive plan land use and. zoning that helps inform those types of uses a lot of the feedback, or you know right, we were hoping for right now is to help guide how we flush this out and really what types of what the type of character we're going to be recommending in these areas, so. you'll see the Green is really thinking about a more housing forward that takes advantage of fronting on the on the park. And then okay that jumped.

[21:00] Again, and the belmont park Similarly, the green right here on 25th in this sort of Orange color the areas identified for opportunities for housing. And with that I will turn it over to gene sansone because she has some really great information about the mobility improvements and connections plan that will. really help support this change for housing and mixed use in these areas. Right, thank you, Jean so For those of you, I don't know my name is Jean Samson and i'm with the city's Department of Transportation and mobility. And i've been working closely with gene, and the whole project team on the east builder sub Community clam and I want to thank you for having us this evening first can everyone hear me, I should have asked. Okay, great good so i'm going to switch gears for a bit to talk about mobility and transportation as folder.

[22:00] And i'm going to take it go back to that prior slide Thank you. Thanks Jane and so you know these are just some photos of out nice boulder today, and today, when we think about this area, you know we recognize that. It was designed in a certain era where low density land uses were separated from each other, the automobile really govern how the streets were designed. And there are large swaths of parking lots that dominate the landscape as as Jeanne mentioned, and as a result, each folder today has long stretches of disconnected streets. has limited walking and biking facilities as compared to other areas around town and frankly less transit service in other areas of boulder so. You know Put simply, when you think about traveling nice boulder today it's generally more convenient to travel by car. You know, but the good news is that is that in the future, we think that traveling East folder will look quite different, the car obviously will continue to play a role, and how people move around East folder, but it will be complemented by other options so next slide gene.

[23:05] Thank you, so you know Jane was talking about plan land uses in this area, and we think about how that, how can you sit in this part of town. will change over time, with more people living in the area, working and shopping and recreating our transportation system needs to support this change and needs to underpin it. And so what this plan is calling for is a finer grained network of streets and pass needed to support this more compact urban form and the mix of uses that we hope to see. And, in some cases you'll see what these dashed lines these could be entirely new streets and pass and in other cases they're going to be upgrades to existing streets and facilities. So some of these improvements that you see on the map or projects that we've had on the books as part of the city's transportation master plan. Like the protected bike lanes along 55th street and Jean shared an image and illustrated image of what that could look like.

[24:00] Others are new projects that this plan will add to the transportation plan like new street connections in that park East in park West neighborhood that we were just looking at next fighting. So the plan also wants to looking to create places where a variety of transportation options are centrally located and we call these mobility hubs so throughout the East boulder said Community will. locate a network of mobility hubs that will be strategically placed to offer. Access to things like shared electric scooters and bikes what you're starting to see out there today. Things like lyft and uber pickup and drop off areas car share and robust local and regional transit service and these hubs are designed to be distributed throughout East boulder located at places like key intersections. at bus stops and either within or next to buildings parking garages and public spaces. So yeah next slide gene Thank you so the city is making a number of investments to upgrade the transportation system today you'll see lots of these orange tones there i'm sure they're familiar to we see them all over town.

[25:10] We do things like filling missing links in the sidewalk and pass system and we're doing things like piloting shared electric scooters and bicycles, as I mentioned. But we're also looking to make a number of larger upgrades in the east boulder area in the future, and we call these the big moves next slide please. So what you're looking at here is one of the most transformative of these moves it's the redesign of East arapahoe, which is one of our cities busiest travel corridors. into a complete street with better travel options for commuters and the people, the more people who are going to be living and working in these folders in the future. And so just real quickly a cornerstone of this investment will be high frequency high quality bus rapid transit service connecting boulder to communities out East all the way up to 25. It will include repurposing outside travel lanes for business and for business access and regional and local traffic.

[26:09] It will rewrite turns I should say, and it will also include will continue to include to to general purpose traffic lanes in each direction raise protected bike lanes. And enhancements to the street streetscape and public ground. And these improvements are going to be paired with enhance local transit service into East boulder either via the extension of the high frequency hot best service which currently serves central boulder. And it could look like a fixed route extension into East folder or it could look like something that's more of a flexible. Micro transit type of service, where travelers use their smartphones to match trip requests in real time with flexible routes to the area kind of like a a uber lyft bus type system similar to using types of ride hailing services so next slide.

[27:00] Just to wrap things up, you know what we're really looking to do is create an opportunity for more safe and walkable areas where people can easily travel by bike foot scooter high frequency transit. Car and vehicles, I mean we recognize that this is a very industrial area and we'd like to continue to maintain a lot of the industry and business out there, so ensuring that. Goods movement delivery and freight traffic can. easily and comfortably and safely navigate through these folders important to us, so at the end of the day, we want to allow for that movement, as well as to provide convenient and reliable travel options for the plan mix of new employees and residents and visitors to the area. So with that I will hand it back to Jean. Adrian yep just to recap really these big ideas, building on what what we've seen earlier, as the plan has progressed. Around a better mix of uses to foster those 15 minute 15 minute walkable mixed use neighborhoods more housing of different types better ways to get around without a car and lots of areas generally staying the same that provide are really important medical and other services.

[28:15] we've had, as I mentioned we've had a number of engagement opportunities over the past few weeks, really aimed at understanding people's level of support for these. For these what we're calling out those 60% drop the big rocks in the JAR and we'll then we'll be filling in lots of the little rocks as we move along. And I think that's it we'd love to take your questions and hear your feedback, the discussion questions that we have are around your level of support for these approaches and the locations for new housing and mixed use and specifically that to deeper than arapahoe station area. valid feedback on the balance of uses how we might further refine that and there are other changes that you might recommend where those would be.

[29:04] Great Thank you Thank you Jane and Jane and our newest Member gen live of itch has raised her hand first to respond to some of your questions. Oh i'm sorry you're muted Jen. sorry about that, thank you for presenting and I know this isn't light stage right, you would you would refer to this as. sort of brainstorming is I mean is that, where we're at here with this. No, I would say. I mean. As I mentioned we've we're about two years into this process we have and Jen welcome welcome to the board and it's nice to meet you. Nice team, I do I didn't do a lot of the other background, because we I. The other the rest of the board members have had a series of updates prior, but we have had we've been at this about two years, we have a Community working group about 20 members.

[30:06] That have been you know just troopers and hanging in there and helping us advise on all of these pieces we've done several engagement windows and focus groups. Virtual meetings questionnaires that have helped shape to where we are we've been to with our planning board and Hello pizza. lucky to seen several versions of this as a planning board member along the way, and our city council's so our most recent visit was with the transportation Advisory Board and the planning board. And then, also the city council on a separate meeting in July to share these recommendations, the those boards really were gave us a green light for sharing these with the Community and. Council particularly really on board with where these recommendations are going but but recognizing that this is really important time to get feedback from the Community to help refine them.

[31:05] Okay, I appreciate that Thank you. Sure yeah I am still going to ask a few questions all right um so. Jean you were talking about some of the. Different types of alternative transportation that what some of that could look like there, and so I I saw sign for wi fi like a wi fi zone. And that's great but i'm curious why we don't have wi fi directly on our buses. And that was how it, you know, maybe this is off topic, but I think it also is relevant and I didn't know if you could possibly answer that and then the only two other points, I was interested in making. Is. So if I look around boulder and I look at different pockets of boulder I can see where I hear a lot of conversation about increasing walkability and so when I think of walkability.

[32:14] I think of new urban ISM and. And so, if I look at North boulder. I can see some aspects of new organism, but then I can also see where some of that has missed the mark and so with this development here um. I know you can't speak for other businesses, but what I would like to see is a diverse representation of staple retailing stores in the area. I think I talked to somebody about this with hat on on the housing advisory board about North boulder there's not really.

[33:00] Economic and economically friendly shopping option for people who might be in that LM I i'm. Earning range, and so I just wanted a slide that in um because even though that is down. If you fit in arapaho I mean they're nurse stores King supers that's beyond 10 minutes, and so, when you want to increase walkability you want to make everything walkable and less than 10 minutes so. I think that's all I have, thank you. Great thanks Jen gene I don't know whether you can answer that the first question about the buses I think Jen just recognizing. Your your second I don't know if it was a question or a comment, but the recommendations around adding retail, we think, will help with the access to services and we have heard a lot about wanting to encourage ways that new retail would be more affordable.

[34:06] As you acknowledged very hard to control. And Jennifer related to your question about wi fi on buses that's something we've been advocating for with our TD, for many years and they have yet to provide that. Is I will say we're working very hard to electrify our bus fleet, the hot bus fleet and what what I was thinking when you ask that question is, do we need wi fi on the hot bus or why don't we have about wi fi and hot bus because that's actually. The one bus service in town that the city actually managed to see a using via as our operator, so I you know i'm i'm happy to circle back and get an answer for you on that, because I don't know myself as to why we wouldn't have them on our own buses. yeah I appreciate that I mean there's a lot of conversation about equity and the digital divide, and I feel like if we want to encourage people to use our transportation systems.

[35:07] We should be meeting people a little bit more where they are and providing them well free wi fi a that's all thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jan know. And a very quick comment and we'll take more questions about the affordable retail and these types of neighborhoods. My experiences as it requires a subsidy and a good example of that is what Denver housing authority is doing in their more recent mixed income neighborhoods where they subsidize something called choice markets in Sun valley and. contentment osage so it can be done, but it ain't easy in the market might not take care care of it. more questions. comments.

[36:03] Okay. Thank you, Terry. Thanks thanks for the presentation again follow up from the last one, which I think is great i'm kind of working big to small generally think I think he's folders an area that is ripe for new housing I think it's a great idea. A lot of what's out there as older. And they need a redevelopment, but I think the real challenge is going to be. From property owners perspective if you have a building or warehouse or whatever's out there office FLEX all the different product types of out there right now. If they're working which most of them are and more of them are working now better than ever motivating those property owners to change to wholesale change their their use, I eat you know. tear the buildings and rebuild something else or utilize their parking lots for housing that's a tough thing to do, because a lot of times property owners, especially out there now there's a lot of institutional owners or whatnot.

[37:08] You know if it's working and it's meeting their needs, financially from a return on investment, all that kind of stuff it's hard to get them to change. it's not impossible, but it's difficult, I think, maybe a strategy to get to start change out there is to look at the areas that don't have buildings don't have parking lots and stuff around the park and whatnot. And really motivate those property owners to do something really incentivize them to do something to at least get get the ball rolling. I think would be a good strategy. But overall, I think. Putting housing it out, there is great, I think that the neighborhood of the type of property that's out there in the type of housing that's going to go there. Maybe doesn't fit the kind of housing, that we probably need the most which has more middle income family housing and that's.

[38:02] Probably not what's going to be out there, but at least it'll be something, and we need, as we know, we need more of everything so even if it's more dense even it's more multifamily even if it's more condos it's still better than not. But I think that the challenge is going to be getting existing property owners that are doing fine to change our ways, but I like the idea I think it's great, thank you for the presentation. Thanks Terry. Thank you, Terry would like to go next. My God it looks like Danny and Jacques have hands up. Okay, just that just popped up on my screen anywhere to go first. i'll see the Florida zach.

[39:00] We go. Jackie makes Danny I had to I had to get the technology, instead of just the hand wave. I guess a couple of things one gina kind of wanted to follow up on terry's concern about getting property owners to you know shift use basically with their with their properties if they have an existing use and already a structure on it. How much of that is really being proposed out here is that do you have a sense of that. Well, as, as you know, these types of plans evolve over decades we're still seeing a lot of the implementation of the north boulder sub Community plan. But I think we have to recognize that to get that to do that motivation, we we probably need to work in some incentives, some of the things that have been discussed are around.

[40:04] A little more FA ir or some changes to the zoning that would help incentivize the or motivate the renovation, we know that a lot of these buildings also are really aging and. And so those some of those opportunities will be coming and then in the next decade or so Jean other thoughts, especially around the station area, we have some recommendations within that plan to. yeah I think you're right and and we recognize what a challenge this is. We were just having a conversation with our economic and market consultant who's helping us with the more detailed planning around the 55th and arapahoe area, and you know this is going to be a huge challenge, whether its. density bonuses FDR bonuses financial incentives, this is really the next part of this plan that we need to tackle to start defining what these what the direction will be to implement these these policies.

[41:06] And we're also and you know that's why we're having conversations with folks like you to to understand what what's palatable. And what you would all would like to start seeing out there. yeah it's it's certainly a challenge. I had, if I can keep going, I had a couple other questions one gene gets a gene is that when we had a meeting earlier one of the last updates you gave us. We talked about the there was discussion about the kind of housing units versus kind of jobs balance in this area has that shifted from those original. numbers, it seems like the 4400 new units seems to me to be a different number one we looked at, before I could be mistaken, but it struck me as being a higher number and where we add on that.

[42:08] I think when the last time we were here we have three different concepts and some of them had a little more different types of housing in different areas, I think we were one of the upper range of some of that modeling was around 6000 units and. included a few more sites, especially some that are currently in the hundred year flood plain so we've refined into this this approach, the the modeling is around up to about 4400 units, but you know again that's has a lot of assumption basis. type of unit size of units, how you know mix of the non residential to residential in the mixed use. If there's interest in the final plan for tipping that more we you know we can look at additional sites, we can look at additional types of.

[43:03] units, we can also think a little bit more about. Where where some of those incentives might be appropriate, as far as like another floor or additional additional density. But, again, I think. This moves the Needle, on jobs, housing balance obviously a lot for. housing, but we still there's still quite a bit of job potential in East boulder especially beyond the life of this plan, there are a lot of underutilized properties in East boulder that over the very long term could be redeveloped into a lot more jobs, we we typically forecast. You know, again about a one 1% growth rate in jobs, so the.

[44:06] Over the. Term of say 15 years, this would definitely make a big dent in the jobs, housing balance, especially especially a nice folder, for you know of that geography, since we have so limp such a limited number of units there today shark i'm not sure if I answered that question. yeah I mean, I think, is probably you know there's there's probably a lot more for for me to learn on that besides what we'll do tonight, but i'm just trying to get a sense, just because of the last time we did look at that. You know potential build out for employment and jobs was in the 10s of thousands and potential build out for housing was a quarter or less of that and. Just I guess i'm wondering, you know I always had that question if if if we're going to bring housing in these areas, I know, we need the light industrial to be kept as a part of our mix, but you know there's just a question around that and how we're doing on that on those numbers so.

[45:12] yeah and it's a good question for. That we're asking directly of our Community Members right now to and i'd love to hear your thoughts as far as what we're recommending helping that balance okay. The last one I have, and you probably don't have a direct answer to this, I have a feeling it's going to be a similar thing like as it builds out but have you proposed, or do you have a picture in your mind of the balance of housing types. Between townhomes apartments condos live work units and all of that is there is there any sense of that at this point in time. I think it was really important to the working group members to have a range of types of units so in each of those the colorful maps that you saw we do talk about the types of units.

[46:02] The park side, east and west have the most diversity of trying to look toward that townhouse type or the live work types of units, but will probably be seeing more of the condo or apartment types. I think in that 55th and arapahoe area as far as numbers or percentages I don't think we're quite quite there gene, would you, would you agree or or have others to other to add to that. No, I think that's right. Okay. i'll let somebody else go they'll come back to my others. Right, I think Danny this dude oh. Ah hi guys, thank you very much. This is very helpful, I really like to see this way this things progressing, I had a few comments and I guess a few questions, but I think you know the whole notion we're talking about a plan like this we're talking about a vision.

[47:03] I like having that higher housing number because again there's nothing in any sort of master plan document that's a mandate you know you're talking about goals and how you how you progress in that direction is really. A question of a long period of time, and you know some good fortunate, etc, so I like the way that you guys have that, because ultimately we're talking about a transition from what is, which is kind of the old school to something that will be. You know more modern in terms of where the needs are for the city, right now, etc, so I think that's all great, so I do like the whole notion of. The mix of zoning I do like the emphasis on the housing. One of the things that I like to see and and you know that very well, may be in there, but uh you know we've talked about in the past. The housing Advisory Board has, over the past few years about the notion of the role employers can and should play.

[48:05] And and overall housing solutions yeah and and I think it's it's really been a missing link for most communities that you see throughout the state pretty much everywhere. And I think something like this with the notion that the next big company that comes in a this would be an ideal place to develop some sort of campus right so. Where they're providing housing, you know I know that there was a lot of discussion on this when I think it's one of the reasons why. Amazon got the boot from New York City from Queens particularly riker up was because of the lack of. Addressing that issue, but you know something we say housing that's kind of integrated with the businesses really is is. I think, Jacques was saying, one of the things that we talked about as a great model for here whether that's upstairs downstairs you know. Employee unit business on the ground level whether that's a campus you know, the one thing that jumps out at me I just drove past there yesterday and bsd is right down the block.

[49:06] And they certainly have a lot of employees that can use housing closer to where they work, so I think that's something that i'd like to see but, overall, the vision, I absolutely love. I really liked the emphasis on what can we do transportation wise to really. augment how this plan goes and how it really is going to accommodate the needs. I do agree with Michael I think there are a lot of things that you can do they're always very challenging but I think there are things that you can do and master plan it's another place where you can maybe see it where you can kind of. Direct incentives towards the type of businesses that are really going to accommodate the vision that we have and again that's not a mandate. hardest thing in the world to do you know, been in land use for 25 years the hardest thing in the world to do. is to mandate commercial businesses because it just doesn't happen right, you know papers or thousand paper but i'm having some sort of array in this vision, I think of incentives, both for.

[50:07] The transition with housing, you know so, in other words like Terry was saying, you know, to get people. To move in that direction where they want to kind of maintain inertia, you know we can lay out all the different potential incentives we've talked about some of them here and, again, because this is a vision plan it's not. Regulation we can throw those out there, whether or not they're actually utilized, but it would be great to see those to see that we're you know contemplating those things ahead of time and then, however, it manifests so be it. But that's one thing i'd like to see, but overall, I mean the sets the sets the goalpost at a. Very good picture and a transition that I think is really useful and can really take advantage of this area, which is frankly I think under utilized in is continue in that direction now because so many people I talked to just aren't going back to the office to the same.

[51:04] The same contract that they were pre coven and and, this being an area. Full full of parking lots and full of office buildings, I think I love to see this and to get ahead of the curve is really great so i'm very supportive of it. i'll have some comments, I guess, when we put those questions back up yeah I think I answered most of them, but i'll answer those questions directly, you know when we put those up but. In terms of those questions I support you know the direction this is gone and and i'm very pleased and appreciative to see it. Great I think jack had some other questions, but I wanted to add a chance to choose anything coming on. um well as i've said before and I think Jen actually had her head her hand up again. There in the box, but i'm.

[52:00] i'm. and actually jack brought it up to, but the mix of housing types is really important, and making sure when we think about alleviating. Some of the crunch that we're seeing in certain demographic areas that were really focused on. Providing that housing type and not. As as much, I mean Terry made the point to economically the the high density housing and apartments and condos are probably going to make more sense to any developer that's trying to pencil this thing but. We may need more of that, but the stuff that I see out there 30th and Pearl that's market rate is very, very expensive it's not going to solve the affordability problem that we're seeing, so we are a capitalist society, so we have limitations on how we can develop but. The housing type is really important to align with that it aligned as much as possible with what we really need in in the city.

[53:10] So that we can continue to have our schools open because we've got families that have what they're looking for to. In the kinds of places they want to live with with their children. and allows our schools. Thank you, thank you Julia yeah not too happy, do you have another comment too shocking to name a few. i'm sorry. Oh, someone tell you that I missed your hand raised. yeah I did I wasn't sure if you said Jen so I didn't want to fight yeah well yeah I did have a few questions and I feel like i've missed some of this conversation, so if my questions. not relevant to this just tell me right away, I know that we are looking at i'm like.

[54:02] Focusing on middle class housing um when I hear mixed use um I think it makes us, so I think of. middle class, housing and I also think of LM I housing affordable housing so and we're talking about apartments perhaps and townhomes and. You know, and so what i'm wondering is if there's been a discussion like where we are at in discussion with what this type of excuse looks like and if there's been considerations and i'm for affordable housing ownership and this mixed use. affordable housing units. um. And then also. Some of these units, if they were deemed to be affordable housing or even affordable ownership, a home what is that what are the chances that some of those would be participating and voucher type programs.

[55:15] Thanks jenna very good questions, and I might look to Jay to help out to. Knowing that you know where we are in this type of plan we don't have a lot of control over the affordability levels of these of these types of units. There there's such a need in the Community, that I think we really want to try to emphasize within the plan and parts of our goals of having some of the affordable units in East boulder but. But again with the city not owning. The land or controlling the projects that's going to be much more limited. Jay other thoughts and how to answer that.

[56:00] There I can add just a little bit so you know Jen. So, think about this. Is these boulders up Community plan is sort of a just one step below the comprehensive plan, so the comprehensive plan really doesn't get into the detail of. Specific the super specific details like you're talking about of affordable home ownership affordable Rentals and how many where they go. to bed keep in mind everything that gets developed out here does have to adhere to the current regulations right so that 25% requirement for. Permanent affordable housing has to be met the commercial linkage fees will be getting funds and beginning units through redevelopment and Nice boulder. And I would just add you know the city will and, particularly, housing and human services folder housing partners. We will be looking for opportunities to build projects out here as well, the challenge with that is there weren't very many option sites that were available to build housing so.

[57:07] A big change with this sub Community plan is that they're going to be more opportunities for housing period so and then all those details are things that get figured out later in the development process does that help at all. Yes, thank you. Thanks Jane. We got Danny again. And I just say Jay for that reason that's why I think the having the plan and articulation of some of the incentives that might be in there. Right from the get go can be really, really helpful because it's going to orient things in that direction rally can't control private property, you can incentivize that type of development, we want to see and. Regulatory incentives can be a very powerful tool and you know really starts at the master planning level so i'd love to see that because yeah I agree with what you're saying I think that's a good way to you know hit the ground running.

[58:08] Great jack did you have something else. yeah just kind of. Had a housekeeping issue or question here on on the 60% plan. Gene when you were showing us the slideshow you had close up. diagrams of the different uses in the kind of you broke out the different areas there I didn't see those in the 60% I just saw one larger map with kind of small is that in the 60% land missing it or have they just not been added him yet. It is there's a little information in there and. You know, and we do have we do have a description of what were those are called the those different colors are called place types it's a little further further down in there again. A lot of this what we're working on now and will be reflected into the final draft will be working to to flesh to really try to differentiate between those and flush them out.

[59:10] yeah and I guess what I was getting at was you had kind of close ups of the like the stamp area and these other areas, and I only see the one map of the entire sub community. area. jack can I can I can. yeah if you have them if you can send them that'd be great because they're really helpful. And I would say, take a look at the executive summary from the stamp that I think you guys have the link German your memo as well. And i've got it cleared here I mean it's nice how it's all color coded for us so that's great. One other thing I just had, these are kind of like curiosity questions. And I guess. This may be for. The other gene it's transportation related to Tanzania she's still with us here somewhere okay um I just have questions on the hey There you are, on the.

[60:08] Mobility hubs. Is that something for transportation standpoint. Does the chicken or the egg come first, with how those are laid out versus the housing that's going to end up getting developed, in other words do those things if put in place first also impact, then kind of or incentivize development. You know of housing types so i'm just kind of curious about kind of if if you can just give me a really broad overview like what's the distance between these hubs when you talk about mobility hubs in general, like a guideline. yeah I think it's a little bit of both Doc To be honest, so those areas where we do have control of the right away, for example at bus stops or the planned.

[61:00] Bus rapid transit station we call it a station, but the but the the the vehicles are actually going to stay on street and pick up and drop off much like the flat iron fire does today long broadway. And so those areas where we have greater control the right away, where we can incorporate things like long term bike storage and even wi fi at some point in time. and other types of amenities areas for uber and lyft pick up and drop off those are areas that we can start to look at as we invest in those transit systems, today, I mean one of the things we're doing right now. is actually filling in gaps in the Multi use path on arapahoe today so we're actually in the process of trying to acquire a little bit more right away to make even just the bus stop that's out of 5050. Little more comfortable and provide more amenities for people, and that is the kind of thing that developers will look for right and. As they see these amenities coming then they'll be greater mixes of uses and people wanting to be in that area and to invest in that area and so it's really leveraging that public investment.

[62:01] And I would say that's probably where the largest public transportation investment will happen will be along that arapahoe quarter. When we're talking about those other types of mobility hubs I think of them as sort of smaller scale, like points where so you get off the. Bus rapid transit and you grab you know, an electric scooter and you take it and you drop it off at you know, whatever location you're going to North at the fighter and business park and then you connect to a really good path that takes you straight to your building. You know, or that sort of thing so i'm probably smaller scale, there are also hopefully be opportunities to incorporate these into. divot redevelopment, as it happens, so one of the things that we're going to be looking at what you're hoping to look at in the coming year is to. update our parking standards for one they're pretty antiquated and to hand in hand with. Like things like perhaps a parking maximum would be looking at things like a TD and ordinance to require developers to incorporate those types of amenities you'd want to see it, a mobility have so a little bit of everything yeah.

[63:07] Okay, thanks. Great we definitely have about eight minutes left but i'd like to propose we let this run a little longer, if need be so important good that's great so I got some comments, first of all. I think you all know, I was involved through a urban land institute technical advisory panel that happened in 2016 and although it was not a panelist I didn't insert my own opinion to it this. plan certainly reflects all of those ideas about place making making use of this increasing walkability and in transit so i'm pleased to see that certainly endorse the direction. i'm going to ask my questions one, at a time, one is really about boulder junction which is. i'd say fairly partway through a apparently similar transformation from strictly light industrial to mixed use.

[64:05] that's an area that's received a lot of criticism over the years, and I think a fair criticism now would be the lack of affordability. On the other hand, it is starting to come together as a place, and if you go walk the reason additions to boulder junction you can see the connectivity coming together. And the nicer streetscapes the public spaces and that's really encouraging sign and, of course, a goal as well, so the question is it a lessons learned from looking at a place like boulder junction or for them after. The holiday site that you could be applying are applying to the rabbit hole plan, I suppose that's a question 13. hey. Michael yeah. Go ahead, I was gonna say we, we definitely will be we've learned a ton from what we've done in boulder junction especially around the form based code and what the.

[65:00] outcomes from from that have been we've applied a lot of that learning to the recently adopted farm based kona at all fine balsam as well and use that area plan to help inform the new zoning for this. And I think that, again as we look toward implementation taking those learnings to apply to this plan to. Do you did you have something were to add. But you know, I was just going to add that you know, we very much are using. The district model, you know the access management of parking district model and boulder junction to other areas like Alpine balsam and eventually to. The 55th and arapahoe station area and there's certainly lessons learned about you know the mechanisms, mechanisms to develop those those districts and put them in place and. Unfortunately boulder junction suffering from having a closed our TD bus station at the moment right, so you know we're very dependent on our TV for a lot of.

[66:00] The plans and what is, you know what we hope to be a transit or car light community is is really suffering without transit service. I don't know if there's a lesson learned there but it's certainly something that we keep in mind as we think about the transit investments we're making in the area and looking at even alternative partnerships beyond our TD. Thank you, an implicit question seems to be coming up again, again, is where you start this thing and how do you get it rolling in the right direction, so i'm curious to know if there's any potential candidate site. Such as maybe a small parcel of public land or site that can be purchased as the 30 pro purchase segments purchase long ago. By the city or anytime a mechanism that could help organize development such as a business improvement district, and I realized this isn't strictly planning, but these are the practical points of implementing such a plan.

[67:04] And I guess that's routine either gene both jeans. yeah you get the pair of jeans tonight you know I had to sneak that in there. um I don't think we, you know, I think that we have a lot of opportunities with the city facilities, we have the belmont city Park, the city municipal. Service Center and various others that an airport that are. Wonderful Community amenities and and city on sites that are will be included in this plan, but we're not recommending huge changes to those areas. And as far as privately owned you know there's not an identified site so much yet gene you probably can speak to this more in the 55th and arapahoe area. I wish there was I wish. I wish we had some ownership in that area but, but at this point in time, we do not, but I would say that we have some major property owners in that area who are very invested in this process and interested in seeing the type of change that this plan and visions.

[68:15] and Michael to your point, I think, several, if not all of you have mentioned incentives, so I think if. What i've not heard as our necessarily recommended land use changes that we had in the discussion questions, but I would love to hear some more about your thoughts about incentives. mechanisms to, as you say, get the ball rolling that feel like they would be acceptable, or that we should be considering to be which will work into the implementation strategies. let's a big hairy issue i'm gonna Let me take that first. i'm. just throw a bunch of you we've talked in the past about the.

[69:04] height variance incentive for affordable housing. density and says for affordable housing I think can be it can be a really big tool. You know, a redevelopment allowance for, however, that might play out, you know it's going to be a little tricky over there, given the predominance of uses right now, and the direction we're going. I think there can be fiscal incentives, you know, one of the things that. I think you know as far as I know, like over the diagonal right is is one of the things that that's being explored over there, but I think is a really underutilized tool, as well as the whole notion of. You know lightly subsidized commercial see say if you know you certain kinds of businesses, you can subsidize them and then depending on how they do, especially if you have some sort of percentage rent structure. You can recoup some of that subsidy, but it also kind of helps direct the type of businesses that you're trying to see and get them going and get their feet off the ground and I don't think that's.

[70:05] Too anti capitalist to try to do things that way, I think it can be very useful um you know. I think I think that's that's just the start of it, but I really do think that there's a you know that could be. Exemptions from certain fees that go into it, though that's that's always a challenging. pandora's boxes Jay pointed out last month, but you know I think really the whole notion is list the array of incentives that have been used in the past and that might be used again. and have those in the master plan because or in the vision plan the sub Community plan, because it doesn't mean that you have to use them, it doesn't mean that anything's out there, but it, you know kind of hangs. hangs the worm on the hook there, so a lot of developers will start looking into it when they're doing their initial due diligence and planning if they're going to look at doing a project over there, because. You know if it's in front of them, I think it always makes it a lot more feasible for.

[71:05] A developer, I represent a lot of different developers and if you put in front of them right to begin with, rather than having them hope for something it's going to really increase the likelihood. That you'll see an implement they'd rather than them coming up with you know the do good incentives themselves so. yeah I like danny's idea of just maybe putting the laundry list in the planet that's feasible and you know I mean you're not just thinking about incentives and carrots and sticks right. The developers can and property owners can participate in ways that. cost them something, and they can get something back for doing the right thing you know that's a much bigger discussion, but I think a lot of people on this call are familiar with some of these techniques other comments. About gene gases question in particular.

[72:06] Okay, I have a couple more questions interesting to see this such a fluid situation where this potential of. apple coming in and bring many, many jobs into flat iron Park, which I guess could potentially lead to the sale of Florida and part. So i'm sure this is all moving a moving target. with potential for rising costs around that as well. let's see I I really like the transportation aspects and pushing for gene Samson or both you is has been presented a tab and what kind of reaction to do you get from them. It has been it has been presented to tab I think they've challenged us to include even more connections, which are reflected in this in the plan the connections plan that I shared with you, you know.

[73:05] In June, you can reflect on what you heard from tab as well and it's it's you know almost like we can't get there fast enough in terms of the types of transportation changes that we're looking to see in this area. or degree, Jean and I think we had a really nice we've had two really good sessions that combine both the tab and the planning board. Together, because the transportation improvements, support the land use and the land use supports the transportation improvements and had really good feedback from both around those I think. There were again questions, similar to the jock raised around, jobs, housing, balance and what these recommendations I just you know wanting to clarify. What these recommendations will will do, and I think to that point.

[74:02] It the outlining the the need for that critical mass to be able to support a lot of the transportation improvements and and help make them more viable so. it's important to think about those the nuances of the character and the balance as we move forward. And I, I would just to piggyback on that one other thought I had about our conversation with the transportation Advisory Board is they've really challenged us to make a more explicit link between our climate commitment. And these land use and transportation check changes, and so one of the things that working we're working on right now with our climate folks is. Using streetlight data which is bluetooth data that. We we use to determine volumes of traffic and where people are traveling to in France or their origin and destination, to understand what travel looks like today, based on. The amount of square footage of different types of uses and the population unemployment in the area.

[75:03] And then forecasting what those changes to vehicle miles traveled and therefore greenhouse gas emissions could be as we develop East boulder into more of a 15 minute neighborhood area so. we'll be sharing that information as it becomes available we're still in the midst of doing that technical analysis but it's an important question to ask and to be able to confirm that we, we can forecast positive change with these land use and transportation. investments. Great and I have one more question, and which is, what do you like our board to do regarding this doesn't comment at the moment. i'm sorry around. What are you asking our board for other than comment at this point anything else. I think it's been really wonderful comments and that's that's what we were looking for.

[76:00] Okay Danny. Do you want a directed answers to those three questions, we can give it a try I know it was a little challenging before but. you're right, I think that um. We I think y'all have covered several of them pretty well but but let's circle back because that makes sense to you. Because over deliver. More specifically. So the the first one was really about supporting the approach for new housing and mixed use in the east folder sub Community or the 55th and arapaho stationary and I think we heard. That there's a lot of support for what we've proposed but would love to hear if there's any nuance to that that you all would like to add feedback about the balance of uses and the recommended land use plan suggest our any suggested changes. i'll start you know be brief number one, yes, support the direction to be back, I think you got some of that.

[77:05] In general discussion ballet i'd love to see some element of an editor hey put this in a plan, but job preservation, because a lot of those laddie industrial very practical uses are parked so as we get 55th and wrap up I would hate to see. Those businesses just go away and be replaced by something else to do some way of incorporate. presenter or most of them into a future mixed use area that would be a positive. I don't have a comment I number three. What else. Are you ready, no. Sorry, can you hear me now. um yeah. I replicate michaels comments and I, the only other thing I throw in there is, as I was saying before I love to see incentives articulated a little bit more, so we have that, as part of the.

[78:07] kind of action plan moving forward on this, but outside of that you know very positive feedback I do support it and. You know, outside of that that one comment I think it's going the right direction, I like setting the goals high and then trying to get there, so. Thank you. Thank you, David some other raised hand and there's one jack. i'll go um yeah definitely you know. support this overall approach you know the balance of land uses again i'm just looking to I think shifted even farther into the housing direction if possible. And suggested changes to land use, you know, one of the things i'm just looking as I look at the mapping and I look at the flood zones. There are pieces of property that the city of boulder owns.

[79:05] And I know that they are parks related at the moment, but we have a massive area of park there and I don't question whether, for instance. The zone that's in the 500 year. Just to the east of older lumber. is not some land that maybe could be re engaged with and looked at. No dissing to the disc golfers I love disc golfers but. You know a few posts out there, great, but maybe that could be a realigned into some of that space anyway, and then the other one is the West portion of sterling at the dead end of sterling court. Which is directly on the east side of that belmont park zone. You know, I guess, again, I question they're. Just the balance of uses in the area in general, and if we couldn't carve out, as you know, with careful look at the floodplain issues Those are two that pop out, it is as possible spaces, where we could add a significant chunk of land and are owned by the city of boulder currently.

[80:17] that's it. Any other comments or response to the three questions. Okay, thanks for giving that electric time as well worth it's an important issue, but I think we can thank the jeans and move on to the next agenda item Julia. And Jay. I was just waving goodbye to the pair of jeans. I was saying, thanks pair jeans. That was so good.

[81:00] Again background like confused with rage and so a. lot of that going on. James you all so much for good conversation much appreciate it. yeah Thank you. Thanks. Jay did you have something to say. I was just going to recommend that we move up the ladder to Councils and stuff the most pressing issue that needs to be completed at this meeting. Okay. I just send it out, I apologize, I really thought I sent it, but it is very brief and folks I had a chance to look at it, I won't take one. yeah. I got it. Okay yeah this looks like the latest 111 to got it down to a page Council requested and we focus on one issue.

[82:10] And that's what I tried to do.

[83:26] Michael we just want to comment on it or. Yes, that would be a good start and. I got I have two comments, if I may. Sure i'm. The second paragraph, we talked about middle class that can no longer afford to buy or rent here. I think middle class afford to buy here is correct renting here I don't know, I think that there are a lot of rental options for people. Even the middle class, I don't know that we necessarily need to take it out, but I just want to point out that I think renting housing in boulder is.

[84:07] I think more affordable than a lot of people think, given the income levels of the people that live around here, so I don't know when you check it out, but I just want to point out that I think that buying here as tough ranting here is a lot easier. And then coming down to the four bullet points hosting a discipline listening sessions like good collaborate with other boards. I don't know if you've ever collaborated I think other boards have talk to us and make presentations and whatnot and I don't know of any White Papers we've done. But if we want to start doing that I guess that's possible but I, like the fourth one propose initiatives will support and expand middle income housing. So, in short, there the rental middle income housing I don't know that I totally agree with that. collaborate with other boards I guess that's kind of a nice feel good statement White Papers I don't know if we're doing any of that.

[85:01] And that's about it, otherwise it's great I really like the brevity of it and I like focusing on middle income because I think that's a big part of what we need. Okay, I apologize, I had to turn off my camera because of an unstable Internet those are good comments. I think actually looks really good it's kind of Nice. You know. A good question he raises, I want to go into a huge debate about it but. You know, is there a missing metal for rental or as a cover it is that something that's safe to. not mention your take out. i'm not passionate about taking it out, I just wanted to note that. there's a lot of rental opportunities here that are ridiculous crazy astronomical expensive like buying is so I don't know that we need to take it out, I just wanted to comment on it. Okay. As far as working with other boards that did come up in the last meeting the potential to do something and playing wherever collaborate might be.

[86:07] It could be just a better word there. and You know we've kind of gone back and forth on the White Papers thing because it's a difficult assignment for a group of volunteers to. really get right. i'm open to more discussion any of these is, this is a draft. status hand up. hold on yeah I was just going to say, I think, in general I I like the kind of brevity, and the focus on the middle income as we discussed and it's the right thing to do here. I kind of I like keeping the rent piece in there, a little bit contrast to Terry.

[87:00] I know that i've looked at renting and I definitely fall at the upper end of the middle income and it's hard to find something actually that you know I mean yeah there's stuff to find but, but the variety. And the you know the quality is pretty rough or along those lines, sometimes, especially for a family. So I would I would be happy to see that stay in there. And I think that. You know. The pieces that you have down there the hosting the additional says the listening sessions, the collaboration with other boards, I know that's kind of a broad wide open piece, but, and again I don't know if the term collaborates quite the right one, but I could. I would hope that we would start to engage. More in our in our public process here where boards can.

[88:00] work together, where there's significant crossover you know planning tab have. So I think I think I like to see that in there, exactly how it looks. Very maybe maybe engaged is going to read a little bit less committal. yeah maybe so yeah. yeah. And then you know. yeah I could I could barely get out two pages on the mobile ad us over six months or whatever it was so. yeah the researching and producing White Papers is challenging but I do think that it in a way. We you know, I would like to see us start to put more on on the plate, so to speak, to be considered, even if that's just within you know the board structure itself and never moves beyond it, but so I I like the energy of that otherwise that's all the comments I have.

[89:03] Any additional comment you have hand up. yeah. Go ahead, I. already know you're muted. Okay, I said there's that added gravity's of the Silhouette and a lawyer is great you wrapped a quite a bit of important parts into the one page and so from that the whole structure is terrific. yeah well I I do know retirees come from about the distinction between buying and renting it's absolutely true, I think one of the things I know josh talked about a lot in the past is. Not just buy or rent but stay here so maybe if we throw that in there, too, because that is part of middle income, you know we're talking about the US and stuff like that it absolutely is as well, so maybe buy rent or or stay here or maintain a home year or something like that, but. outside of that I thought it was great I think engage as much better than collaborate because it just you know kind of indicates what we did talk about last month.

[90:06] I agree that may be taken out the White Papers and maybe change that with. provide written recommendations to counsel, maybe that's a better way to go about it. Jay Ruby your input would be really helpful there, but I think instead of saying a White Paper, because that doesn't really say who is going through to just say provide written recommendations, a counselor or something like that and. outside of that I think it's great it's, to the point and it. sticks to the one main issue and then just talks about some of the tools that we want to use so. i'm supportive of you know I think some of those little modest changes can help, and I think it's ready to go. Great we do have some language generic about people putting down roots your suggestions train thing that are being more explicit. Oh yeah.

[91:01] Well, I mean, I guess, just the whole notion. That you know I, and I differ jock on this, but the whole notion that you know it's not just hard to get a House here, but then for a lot of people it's hard to be able to stay here. As as you need more room or just you know, a 40th day to day, whatever it may be, but. that's just one thing I just wanted to bring that up and throw that out on the floor because I know that's one of the things that we've talked about is absolutely a factor for middle income, housing, particularly. that's a really. a really good point. Other other comments. Okay. Can you guys see my editing. Am I sharing my screen properly. Oh there it is. yeah I see it. Now. Yes, yes.

[92:00] And that's it. I was just I. Just wanted you to know that I am i'm trying to capture what you're saying so that we can finalize it tonight. But the one thing I did want to bring up. So I think it's important to be clear about missing middle versus middle income. So. The way that everybody's been talking tonight, has been focused on middle income and not middle missing middle housing. So I just wanted to be clear, if you want to lead with missing middle housing or not. will give us the. Technical distinction, so we make sure we're on the right path. Sure, so missing middle is a housing time right, so what we've been talking about with town owns that theoretically should be more affordable. The problem is in boulder even missing middle housing types are not affordable to middle income households.

[93:00] So the challenge we have in boulder is that middle income households are what are the ones that are getting squeezed out right so they're getting replaced by higher income households and the challenge that we often hear the most is that when people who are renting and bolder. When they look to purchase at home they that's when they. run into difficulty and they find that they can get much more product larger yard or a yard. larger home for about for a much lower price in outside communities, and so you have to really want to live in boulder to accept that trade off anyway, so that is I help in terms of the distinction. So the city has been focused, we have a middle income housing strategy we don't have a missing middle housing strategy. That that is helpful.

[94:02] and boy you didn't. say. hey to remove the reference to rental. Okay, I know, we need to wrap this up, but what's the best way to do that, given the reading on the fly. that's fine I mean, as long as you all agree to that language changes I can just clean it up and then you can sign it. So there'll be it's okay to review it passing around the email Horn and. Now I mean you have to vote on a version tonight. Good devoto version of that make sense. I think how about that language for the. If we say can no longer afford to purchase or remain in housing here that way it's kinda.

[95:05] So put purchase in front. purchase or remain and housing here. class to income I don't think you want to be talking about our start class for. Your last word here good idea. Okay, given jays. direction here.

[96:01] hear any. edits additions changes. So we can get get to a vote on this. So what do you suggest Jay that we changed middle missing middle to. An old income. middle income housing. to your point because we. missed. I like missing middle housing, because even though our are missing middle is still more expensive than, then what one might think it is it's still what we're missing. Right, I thought to jay's point was we want to use missing middle and don't use middle income. yeah.

[97:00] I mean you could say ball. I mean, I think I. mean like you just said, Terry missing middle implies that it's somehow to be affordable to middle income. and your point being that the term that the city has been using that that will resonate with Council. Exactly yeah. you're good with that Julia. Oh yeah I just, I just wanted to make sure I understood what Jay was. saying to us yeah. With respect to the the bullet points, by the way, Michael, thank you for putting this together it's really nicely done and succinct. On the bullet points I would say sort of a foregone conclusion that we would we would research a recommendation made to counsel, so I don't know that we need that.

[98:05] As a bullet point, because if we're going to propose something. I think the expectation would be that we're proposing it based on research that we've done. Oh. you're proposing deleting bullet point three, or perhaps. yeah combined with. me, for I mean they know we're going to research, it I guess. yeah I don't think it's necessary, I think. it's it would be you know, an expectation of basic expectation that we would we wouldn't propose something unless we had. Right researched it so for the sake of brevity, I would just say delete that one. i'm i'm good with that. Your objections. Oh.

[99:00] With respect to engaging with other boards, maybe it's informing informing ourselves of. What other boards are working on and engaging with them, as appropriate, but maybe that's adding adding more words when we just tried to delete some so i'm fine with that too, leaving it. I think we, you know we talked about this a little bit the last meeting and. it's not it's non committal enough it doesn't get us on a corner, but it also suggest some action, we might take that we have not previously, so I like the way it is. cool. i'd like to make a motion to move move to send this letter to counsel. notice me a second that. i'll second. All in favor say Aye in region. I I. I.

[100:02] like this letter, a lot I think it's the best one we've seen. Thanks i'm going back to writing for lady living so that's a good sign. I just clarifying. Sorry, can I just clarify that you guys are all okay with me, adding middle income to missing middling are missing middle. yeah yep. I am. Alright, so I will put this on the fancy have letterhead. i'll get Michael to sign it will submit it and circulate to the group. Great. Well, that is good action medical board in in the same vein we're going to move on to the mobile ad you draft not really a White Paper, well, I guess, it is it's more of a recommendation, Jacques, in particular, has put a lot of time and energy in this, and I think we have a.

[101:05] Good a good proposal, and something else we get voted on tonight and move up our work plan for 2021 so maybe we can get that up as a share screen and make some comments on it and love to hear everyone's input. Jay can you put that up from your side if. you give me a minute. yep no worries. And while you're doing that i'll just jump in and just say. also got you know thanks for the whole board for considering this and Danny and Michael and Jay for helping me kind of. put together this this last piece. guys had helpful edits and they all kind of are along the same thing. i'm not going back to writing for making a living, that was.

[102:00] 20 years ago. I think. I don't think it's coming back. Yes, there's not I don't have your word document I only have the PDF. Okay, let me. I thought I sent the word to you after I set the PDF but. I should be able to pull it up here. Give me a second. There it is. All right, can I share a screen. Yes, you should be able to.

[103:00] yeah okay. Sorry, it comes up with the with the flood mapping in the background, there. Is that visible to everybody. yeah. You can make it bigger make it wider. Bigger wider yep. Hello. whoa. yeah I. received this before tonight's meeting. Unfortunately, sent it out, only a few hours before the meeting, so I don't know if everybody got a chance to look at it or not. But basically on. jays. guide us, I really focus this mostly on the concept of what we're trying to do, and in general the benefits that I perceive from doing this, if we can take this action and then.

[104:11] I think. You know the likelihood is that if. As we get around to a Jay you can help me out with this here, but as we get around to the at you. what's that call J update. Information evaluation. You know they're going to be a number of. Potential changes to the ordinance that might be suggested through that evaluation and that might be a. You know a good time to put this in the hopper with that as Jay mentioned, and, as we know, this one, of course, will require action from Council. and public participation and that whole process of course. Some of those other things that come up through the update or the evaluation may not, but nonetheless it seems like these should probably piggyback together in some some manner.

[105:10] So it seems like it's kind of good timing with that evaluation, hopefully Jay coming up this next year. And do you guys want well. How would you like to proceed with this do you want me to just scroll down through it, you can read or. Is there anybody who hasn't had a chance to read it yet. and wants to take time now to do that. I had to take that as a yes, we want to do that from all the eyes. I will slowly.

[107:00] keep going. i'll fix that alignment so that we're not. Here I just tried to touch on kind of the regulatory structure of a little bit. getting into too much detail. And this last bit is just kind of a quick assessment of.

[108:03] The flexibility kind of the options in. And this was one of jen's questions regarding you know how many different ways, these can be beneficial, you know owners can have just a pad pad and a unit, the size. The flexibility of keeping it on your property or not, if you decide you don't want it there anymore having somebody put one there or not. yeah. And then. Just some. Some of danny's contribution to. The verbiage, and some pictures that I put in and all of these are just fyi, the reason I put these pictures of units in one is they show some different styles, you know and architectural kind of can.

[109:12] join in with different properties over there, but also, these are all units that are on wheels So these are all mobile units. That, and you can kind of tell that by you can't it's hard to see in this picture, but you can see how far the siding goes down below there. You can see the skirting around here obvious skirting there, and this one, although the pad drops down into the hill a little bit so you can't really tell, but that was just wear a pad was created, with a little elevation change so that it could. kind of cheap up to grade, so to speak, so you know there's a lot of. Flexibility and how you can skirt these things and fit them into the environment not have them look like Dan rv or an airstream trailer.

[110:11] And I don't know if we want this or not Jay you know, and I just put this link here, there was an interesting article that was recently in CNN business just around tiny homes in general. You know, and it talks about some of the things that. I think both Jen and Juliet we're kind of leaning into a little bit, which is. You know what is this market look like for tiny homes and what's happening, and they are all you know. that's sales numbers are increasing significantly the number of people who are adopting is are increasing significantly the number of manufacturers are increasing in parallel with that so. You know it's it's definitely a growing a growing little market out there for tiny homes, both for new and resale.

[111:04] Anyway, so that's that does anybody have any questions about this or. comments. Danny. I just say that the pictures are are so compelling because you know we've had conversations in the past about. Was this like a mobile home is this like an rv know you dressed it it's one thing to address it with words but those pictures are so compelling about you know how visually is that these could be so I mean I think it's great a great kind of. Closing element of the White Paper or whatever we're going to call it, but. yeah I think it's great i'm supportive of this i'm glad to see this come to this this step and yeah i'm ready to roll with it for everybody else's. yeah.

[112:02] Real quick note. On those those pictures. Two of those in particular I looked at and price wise they're like right in the ballpark at first, I thought Oh, this might be really expensive ones, but they're in that 40 to 50 kind of K ballpark. For good looking units like that so it's you know it's it's doable Jan. And yeah so the photos that are. featured at the at the end there i'm just some really nice. tiny homes, is that the standard we are we, establishing a standard of what we want tiny homestead. To be or are we also going to include like potential rv I made where.

[113:01] Is there is there a specific static I guess we're looking for, or is this just anything that could be considered and katie you on a wheel. So. This specifically and I think we mentioned it in here somewhere that these are specifically not are these. These are manufactured homes that are on a on a trailer foundation so. You know I have kind of the same feeling with that you're getting at there also when I put these pictures in there, because obviously. Not all of them are going to look like this and I picked pictures of Nice ones, but I think for the purpose of this, the the concept, there is to show that they can be. And again, we you know we can't. You know, we can't account for taste very much.

[114:00] We try a little bit, but we can't really account for taste and the aesthetic of something. So you know what these will end up looking like is going to be just as wide as what any House will look like in boulder. As far as you know, the aesthetic and the style of it from an architectural perspective, I think the main thing that we're trying to show there is that a. They can be integrated in, and I think the real big piece of that is just the skirting just to show the piece, do you know with the skirting which I think is a a piece of the of the puzzle that will definitely be in place if we were to do this. You know that that that's what they look like that you're not looking at the undercarriage. Of the trailer and I think that's The main reason to put them in there, but also, I think a lot of people don't have a sense of what that looks like and as Danny says, I think that at the end of the day, it gives you a sense of possibility.

[115:04] So. I just I just one more thing, and so I might be a bit naive with this, but the tiny homes have yours like 2021 like models, I mean is that, if that if they do would that be. Something that could be integrated into this where, maybe we there was some type of a I don't know I don't want to call a standard but putting some type of limitation in um. So I mean you want to put something into a Community that's going to beautify it too, and so that's my concern. My understanding and Dr scroll is that this is explicitly exclude rv and yet these potentially you know handsome structures are also they can be picked up and moved if someone owns one and needs to find another spot for go ahead day.

[116:05] I was stressed we've talked about this in the past, but this isn't a regulatory structure, this is just catalyzing something that then we'll go to staff they're going to put together a whole set of. Guidance regulations and design guidelines i'm sure regarding these and it's going to blend into what's already there with a to us, so this is just kind of laying out. You know. Some of the the precepts as to why we think it's good to go that route and to make that effort, because you know, obviously staff, time is. pretty limited, but this is really just starting that so Jennifer a lot of those issues will invariably come up and very fine detail during the process of. turning this into. A regulatory structure, and I think a lot of its probably there with the EDU policies already, so this is just. getting started on this and I just want to stress that for everybody we've talked about it before this these aren't regulations, and I think one of the reasons why.

[117:06] We had shot put together the White Paper or whatever we're going to call it is because we didn't want to conflate this with the notion that we were drafting regulations which there was some of that confusion just from. The way the other one was laid out and the attachment of the Los Angeles regs to the back of that. So I think a lot of those questions can and will be answered, and probably not by us, but I just want to stress that for everybody that I think you know we're just getting started on this. And that's why I think this is good because it's not talking about all that that's really policy issues for staff and City Council, I would say. Right and, if you look at that last sentence of the first paragraph, you can see the explicit language about arby's and mobile homes. yeah just right there. yeah I think that you know that that is again an important piece, this is just this is something that we're proposing to counsel that's worth.

[118:08] Looking at and basically asking them to say okay yeah let's look at or they'll say no, we don't think we're going to do that, you know Council will either take it up or not. But as I said, that will and as Danny said that will be a whole process public engagement process that's going to you know occur along with any change of this type. We had two comments from our guests think are worth mentioning one is. Okay, James responded to one of them. I was kind of regarding that as a technical question from learn about whether this is even legal and by understanding it correctly. i'm not seeing that question what was it. It was in chat.

[119:01] Oh yeah I don't have access to have access to my chat now because i'm sharing screen I gotta find out where my chat with. yeah. So we're not. Using chat so I mean if you want to ask people in the audience if they have questions you're welcome to do that, but let's not use the chat and that way. yeah like I think that. That would be better, Michael if we could. Oh sorry that should be alive question was I saying. yeah or what i've instructed both mark and Lynn is if they want to communicate with the board, they send you an email the john Chen is only for. Asking technical questions about zoom if someone's having difficult. Oh ic ic so. it's it's very distracting the meeting that. People. Okay, I withdraw that suggestion and ask for other comments on this document.

[120:10] Do you guys Can I take this the document down now, or do you guys want to still have it have it up there. share. Anybody want me to keep it up, I will pull it down otherwise. i'm okay we're pulling it down, but whatever other thing. Going going gone. Okay. Okay. Well, we could discuss this more or we could. ask for emotion. Well, I would. I would, can I make the motion on this or this. Okay, well, I would make a motion that we.

[121:05] approve this. Recommendation for mobile accessory dwelling units. As recommendation to counsel to put on the. work plan for 2020 i'm sorry, what is it 2022. heads up, let me catch up. Just a little bit. I think if you trying to sneak it into 2021 but. Again i'll make a. move that we. Have. recommend this mobile accessory dwelling unit. change to the to the you ordinance. and put it on their work plan for 2022.

[122:02] Second. Okay, we have emotion. Oh, all in favor Aye. Aye. Aye. I think i'd. Be. Against. Okay, I can't afford one do we have an extension. me. Did you need to ask might be, you can see it on his face. He looks pain oh my gosh. I. turn it. over to the notion of. hers and everything and I just don't know. What send it off, we passed it. We pass it. yeah. yeah. Thank you. Okay, thanks everybody. Thank you job.

[123:00] Okay, the Item number C letter C and I have managed the Board is middle income next steps, I think we need to modify that language to maybe missing middle income next steps. I guess that's an open discussion about. What we might want to do since we're putting that as numero UNO on our work plan for 2022 are actually asking the Council to do news over 2020 2023. We could discuss. Some ideas come up recent past, or having a listening session, for example, but we're going to open that up to the entire board. Any. I just I kind of think at this juncture, maybe that's something better for us to wrestle with and in January, we have a feel for what direction we're going in terms of live meetings or zoom meetings and and some other you know policy matters here and stuff like that I think I think.

[124:11] You know January could probably be best utilize to be a scoping meeting for the whole year, to try to you know hit the ground running with that stuff, but I think that you know. The. kind of context that we'd have then would probably be the best time to wrestle with a lot of that I think now, it would just kind of be. You know stuff that might assuming we don't have that December meeting, which is next thing, but you know it might it might be lost by the wayside, a little bit by the time we get back in January anyhow, so I would probably. say this would be a good thing to bump the January just be my thought. I think I think we are going to have a December meeting but that's the topic coming coming up. So that's basically a plea for tabling it for now other other notes. I would agree, I think it's it's probably worth tabling for now, and you know waiting until January and seeing what the field looks like.

[125:11] I agree, I agree with was shocking and Danny and that. A lot of people with Turkey at thanksgiving on their minds with nothing wrong with that. Jenny to every comment. Now, I agree with everyone. Okay. So we'll put it out there for potential agenda item for December, if we have a December or. January. gosh, this is not on the agenda but remain maybe Jay would be okay and putting us under manager step i'd love to have a little debrief on the technical housing symposium that was held last week. That.

[126:01] James and staff had a lot to do with organizing we had a really interesting panel I don't have a great sense of the attendance was clearly more zooming than life, but I was technically sold out. That OK, with you Jay. yeah we can definitely do that next mean I added it to my list. Oh OK, I was saying, can we do it now because it's fresh. Absolutely yeah we have time yeah. that's what i'm thinking. who attended. Okay well that's. A discussion I like well i'll give you some feedback, I thought it was a good session, it was. me, have you all heard the clay fun or I think most of you heard the clay fine presentation on the history of racism in boulder real estate and he did a repeat command performance of that.

[127:00] The highlight for me was having the president of the minneapolis. The city council. speak about their zoning reforms and he was just wonderfully pragmatic and tough and also have a lot of good insights about. Ways of engaging the private sector to build more housing using those carrots and those steaks. I personally thought it overall could have been a little more solutions oriented, there was a lot of information about the problems and maybe maybe there could have been more more solutions, but we're able to lose them in from. The West Coast day. Oh yeah yeah I was running the zoom meeting or we did the nation, and I was the one funneling the questions from online to the moderator yeah no I would I would highly recommend everybody watch it. it's recorded. it's recorded if you go to that link it's it's I mean I would watch the full three hours because I think there's very good information to be shared and the intent really wasn't to focus on solutions, it was to really start the conversation or broader Community conversation.

[128:17] And I think you know there's a good article in the daily camera the next day. I think it's gotten some people's attention, and I think you know the one feedback we got, particularly from. You know our community of color is his excitement that you know that this issue is acknowledged and that the city is. is willing to have this conversation and willing to do some actually do something about it so anyway, I would encourage you to watch it it's well worth the time. All right, well i'm going to make that a homework assignment. For have board members and gay he would put it on the agenda, and maybe we can discuss.

[129:01] Next month. which I think gets us to matters from the staff happy to see her little her schedule and. I guess we'll have a discussion about the December meeting as well, what have you got Jay. yeah i'm going to suggest. framing the discussion about the housing equity symposium as what's happening rolling sort of the next steps has on time. Okay, so Moving on, so I just put the December meeting in there traditionally have. I can't remember the last time have had a December meeting. it's just a challenging time of year everybody's busy we usually get pretty poor attendance, the one year that we did have it we don't have a significant agenda actually don't have any agenda items, other than.

[130:01] Well, no, you guys wanted to talk about. middle income next steps in January, because there is a chance Council is toying with the idea of going back to in person. And they're going to have to have, I think that discussion last night actually and I don't know the outcome, yet, but i'll let you know, so the question for the Board is do you want to have a December meeting or do you want to take a break for the holidays. I take that as a yes. You just need an emotion and vote on it. I would do it i'm not got pressure anyone else to if I think it's too busy time of year. That was emotional second it.

[131:03] looks like a really positive emotion. I could go either way so. 1000 second or third it. i'm not even sure what a motion. Michael was motioning to have a meeting. Okay. I need to know what the agenda items are going to be, if you if you want to move forward with the meeting. more explicit said I would I personally would be I would attend a meeting, but I want to hear from folks if they think it'd be valuable or burdensome and before we vote on. Jay can we meet in person at the Rio is that an option. You absolutely can. Count canceling the meeting and meeting at the Rio. know. again. And all of us. would be.

[132:00] hugely in favor of that. As long as it's accidental we all end up there, accidental. yeah what are you doing here. Just notice it. Does i'd be into that December after this year, and last year. That i've ever went around anyway. Oh. No problem i'll buy all the drinks just. A second that motion. I think. I need. To do. I think I think it's a great idea let's make a public notice let's go somewhere that's a little more open than the real like. A Ray backs. yeah yeah and. If people want to come and they want to talk to us and we can get feedback and people are real just talk to each other. That sounds great. kind of an open meeting. I think. The main idea. holiday housing meeting. really needed. That.

[133:02] i'm fully vaccinated. Matters but. that's that and let's let's have an open discussion. With no agenda. Yes. yeah okay December 15 should we. Can we do it earlier, I mean it'll be cold. it's it's 20 degrees tonight. going to be probably five. You you can change it from you know, whatever time you want, I mean it could be four to six. Happy are. You. Know they're. limited to two hours, I would recommend calling it a retreat. And just where you're going to be say it's open. 15th because I have a blocked off. move it up a little bit to four o'clock and. You know, see what happens.

[134:02] I say move it up i'd say move it up a little bit. And I would also just suggest that you know we can be fluid in it, if you know. We don't have to. Everybody be punctual or everybody stay the whole time but you know we just have that blocked out and. yeah call it a it's a it's our listening session for the year, so to speak. Right. All right, I emotion that we need it Ray backs on Wednesday December 15 from four to 530. With no agenda. tacky. God. i'm not to be a wet blanket but I need to make sure that that's kosher. yeah. Okay dad. The car keys.

[135:01] Okay, we have seconds, we gotta vote. Coming yeah I was gonna make a comment on the 15th of December I should be important to Rico, so I will be with you guys in spirit, but in a much better warmer place. You can zoom in the data. Have a drink, though. i'd like to i'd like to suggest a friendly amendment. That we move the December 15 meeting to Puerto Rico. Exactly what I want to be there, but I know what i'm going to be the week before there, but that day, I still I have to find a place. To work but yeah that'll be fun. treat for sure. Thank you for that friendly amendment jack I think boat on the first.

[136:00] rejected I love the idea, all in favor of me or a back at 4pm and December 15 no. I I. Know right no i'm happy basis on that one that's good. Acting a gender let's see. Dun. da man had a thing debris debris from our meeting we actually got a lot done a fantastic presentation on a big topic comments. Think it's good. Do we want to do a calendar check for January. Oh yeah. 1926 what do we do. third, fourth week.

[137:02] or. My calendar. Was 26 yep okay. I think corey needs to get them into your calendars for next year. Great yeah. i'll remind her to do that. cool. So what I have on the agenda for January the. middle income missing the next steps and the housing equity symposium. Next steps as well habs role. We had talked about doing all the other school district presentation on school enrollment there was interested in that topic I can try to get my contact just show up for January or February, if you have a preference. I saw some Heads nodding there I can i'm happy to arrange that. Are the things that have been listed Jaffa the entitlement process.

[138:01] Getting a better understanding and that occupancy is another big topic. That I think is going to come around again. And then. What else. I think that's about it, so any preferences thoughts that's an admissions. Like of all. i'd like to I like the bsd the school piece it'd be interesting to get kind of wrap our heads around that and. I mean depending what we hear here in the next month, they occupancy piece, I think, is also valuable. Okay, and we're gonna. End it. yeah I agree, I think, maybe bsd in January and occupancy in February or even vice versa, but sounds like PBS these more teed up and. go from there. Jay if we were to do down the road a learning session entitlements he that rolling out be a staff person mean that or someone developers contour entitlement process where you think.

[139:12] it's really it's it's specific to cefas. This is before your title Boise. There was a lot of concern about the timing of tax credit deals and. And it's actually changed so i'm not sure is that relevant anymore again swallow covered it a little bit not in his presentation last year. Right. So used to be, you know, like php it would go after tax credits and get awarded tax credits for a certain density and certain number of units. And so, when they would go through the entitlement process, they would basically say, well, if you change the number of units then we're not going to be able to get our funding. And so, now they go through the entitlement process first and then go after their tax credit financing just to avoid that dynamic.

[140:02] So i'm not sure, but I mean it's still interesting to know more about it, but we would have someone from chapo come and talk about how they fund affordable housing projects, I guess that's the way I was thinking about it. yeah interesting but it doesn't sound like it's further stouffer. wrong. there's reason it's been on the word plan for two and a half years. yeah I think we'd have time to have the bb amp D presentation. And all depends on their availability right, I see. Any other calendar topics or debriefs in a meeting. or anything else going on at the city, you want to know more about. Well, you think the new Council will take up bedrooms on their own as legislation.

[141:03] My crystal ball is really hazy right now yeah. Nothing else I might ask for a motion to adjourn. Danny is motion to have a second Ken was doing something with the hand. jack second. All in favor of returning and wishing in shoulder happy thanksgiving. Okay, thank you both good meeting. You traveled. By. Car to December. yeah so. In person that yes, see you guys. Doubt yeah.