October 27, 2021 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:10] alright. I just started the recording. Okay, great welcome everybody we. confused because there's six of us now do we have a quorum Jane. um you have for. For the six items like a quorum. yeah you have a corn. Great well welcome everybody. The agenda. Okay. Welcome to the October meeting of the city of boulder having Advisory Board. we're going to start with a roll call called me daughter, and have a roll call and then we'll introduce a new member so Jacques.

[1:08] here. Terry Ramos. he's not here, I believe you sent a note today is he going to be absent. excused, he has good duty, so he made. Juliet. Hello. Danny. Everybody. Okay, well, I hope that Danny will join us shortly is the vice chair. going to start by welcoming Jennifer lubavitch our newest board member appointed by Council last week and Jennifer For starters, but I pronounce your name correctly.

[2:07] Yes, you did very. Well, how about. You know a little bit about you, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. so sure, my name is Jen lubavitch i've been in boulder for a little over nine years. i'm a non traditional student at Colorado State University on the cusp of graduating their undergraduate human services program and. i'm also a member of the downtown Community Advisory Board, I am very involved in homelessness in boulder and i'm happy to join all of you and serve the Community, thank you. we're very happy to have you and welcome your perspective, look forward to meeting, you will have coffee send i'll send you an invite and we'll find a time to do that.

[3:08] Right, thank you. yeah Thank you so quick review the agenda will be moving on in a moment to the approval of minutes which are attached in your packet will have. Public participation, after that, if any, members of the public would like to comment to get three minutes and then item six is matters from the board we've will have a presentation for the esteemed jade signet. who's initial as the same as his name I just noticed. And, for your information Jen we've. As a board i've been mentoring towards identifying the missing middle is a key issue, we can be influential on and we'll have more discussion about that later in this meeting, especially when we get through the letter.

[4:02] The mobile ad you discussion is to review a proposed some proposed ordinance language primarily developed by Jacques that would allow. Homeowners to create beds, to welcome mobile ad use. As a yet another tool in the box of affordability Jackson a lot of work on that and i'm hoping we can come to some. Resolution on that and then, once a year, we send a letter to Council which i've drafted, excuse me about a month ago, since then, we got some feedback from Council that they would like that letter to be. extruded 321 action item that they can look at in 2022. And we have a deadline, and I believe December 15. Seven metals from the staff and then we'll have a debrief and calendar check and adjourn by 9pm generally these meetings have been going to close tonight so we'll see how we do tonight.

[5:10] So I believe we've all had a chance to review the Minutes from September 22 2021 do I have a motion to approve the Minutes. Second. Any Thank you. May we vote on the approval of the Minutes from September 22 all in favor say Aye. Aye. Aye. So past. If we have any members of the public zoom in general information that members of public are invited, but there will not be on camera and now is the time for them to speak. hey my name is Fiona schlock there i'm here as a member of the public.

[6:02] Well, first of all thank you all for what you're doing it's a lot of important work for the city of the terror 25 years and appreciate where you're trying to take this. I reached out to you, via the HIV email address as in copy Jay a few weeks ago after your last meeting and I heard back from Jay it sounded like there might be an opportunity for some public participation in this, not as a board member, but maybe through a working group. After the last presentation about some interesting town and gown if you will. Housing in fairfax and charlottesville a sound like there's an opportunity for someone to maybe do some research and present to this group. Some findings that might be helpful, so I didn't know if this word would consider something like that, or if that's a possibility for members of the public to participate. Thank you. Thank you. I believe you are. My neighbor I love them street correct.

[7:00] I am. Oh Hello. My little dog. We could discuss that. I haven't completed resolve my own feelings about it, but I believe you part of the reason you volunteered to participate in some research is you didn't feel you might not have the time to participate as a board member is that right, you know. yeah I just retired this year and i'm planning to do some travel when I can so I didn't want to commit to. For any any board for four to five years i'm actually on a couple boards right now but definitely wanted to see if I could contribute in some way and that seemed like possibility if that that would work. Great well that's a really generous offer. In terms of retiring we are continuing to host these meetings by assuming definitely. i'm also retiring this year and we played plan on staying in some of those meetings from remote location so maybe that shouldn't hold you back.

[8:05] I was thinking about the idea that maybe you could apply for a shorter term, and actually be on the board. and believe that there's two year terms and i'm not sure exactly how those workouts at the Council discretion over you can request that and also open to hearing from other board members on how they. They feel about this. So can I just interject quickly and the and i'm really sorry I meant to get back to you before today. But the month that kind of got away from me, so I did forward your email to all the board members there isn't really a structure to have volunteer participate in a working group necessarily. So what I was hoping was that one of the one of our existing board members could work directly with you to help you basically would help them, and they would be the conduit to the rest of have for you, that was sort of the best solution that I could think of.

[9:11] Other than as as Michael was hinting it would be great if you actually did apply to be on on have full time so anyway, I just wanted to share that and I again I apologize for not getting back to you. as well. yeah I know this is limited, I don't want to take more time than that is allocated so i'm happy to. get back to you Jay offline Thank you I didn't realize that there were other seats I knew there was one open, and you know congratulations Jen on being appointed, but if there's another possibility, maybe I can explore that but i'll go stepping out of the agenda thanks everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Other comments from board members, I have another thought I could call it.

[10:01] Well, my only other thought about taking out of volunteers, would we be setting a precedent for anyone to volunteer to help the board to help the board. You know, in some cases I could be friendly or not. So just a slight concern in that regard, but always glad to see people willing to get involved with the Community. Well hey should we proceed J is that something that we should be voting on, or just continuing discussing. My recommendation is is if someone on the board is willing to take you up on her offer to meet with her and have a direct conversation with her. There isn't really a mechanism for her to volunteer for the full board.

[11:05] yeah I hope she applies. Yes, would be fantastic agree. yeah that makes the most sense yeah. No hinting that does make sense. So Jay if i'm correct what you're suggesting is that one of us as a board member can just contact her and work with her directly if we needed support on something we're trying to do, correct. Exactly. And if there's. interest as well. Okay, could. We make up and I understand. you've listened to several of our meetings I hope you'll. do so again tonight we're having an interesting conversation ahead, are there any other members of the public who care to comment. nope. i'm seeing in the list.

[12:02] Okay we're gonna move on to matters of the Board and JC net at our request. has prepared a presentation on middle income, housing and i'll just turn it over to Jay. All right, alright hey everybody so. I. think this should be familiar. I recognize that I just realized, when I was preparing this I was like wait, I think I just gave this presentation and it was actually in August. So i'm going to go through this really quickly, I did add a slide and that's where I want to spend most of the time, but I think it's a good reminder, because what one of the things that the Board was asking was Okay, what are the existing middle income policies. what's working what programs do we have what's working what's not working, what are the challenges, so I think it's good to just do a quick reminder and i'll go through it.

[13:04] What the study showed us what the goal is what the tools are we talked about this past, present or future. And just a reminder middle income we're talking about 80 to 150%. Those am on dollar figures are not correct. Unfortunately I. cannot find this the presentation were updated those numbers but anyway, you can imagine they're probably about I believe the 126 the high end free person was up to 104 is what I want to say it was. But anyway, you can go back and look at it just give you a sense of who those jobs include, and the reason we're looking at this and the reason Council has been looking at this, is that sherry has been dwindling over time remember so that. Since the 1980s it's basically the map that middle has been down six well the upper the higher income sipping displacing those middle incomes, but we've done very well in retaining the low and moderate income households in boulder.

[14:12] And we talked about. Schools and household sizes with that we'll talk about that more later just a little bit again just a reminder that the Rentals. In boulder 99% and I that, even though this is 2015 it still applies today vast majority of Rentals are affordable to middle income, so when we're talking about the missing middle. middle income we're talking about home ownership, when a family or household when they start to realize or decide that they want to purchase a home they're renting in boulder just fine what they find is what they can purchase in boulder. isn't quite what they can get in the outline jurisdictions, they can get a bigger yard, they can get more space they probably a little bit nicer product.

[15:04] So the challenges and it's and again we're talking about detached homes, is that mean detached homes because detached homes are largely out of reach in boulder right. So really what we're focused on is for sale attached homes. So the working group did look at modifying the current goal which they did, but then, if I with the tools are in the third thing that they were supposed to do remember was fine funding which they do. Which is very important to keep in mind. And the goal bill to preserve 3500 middle income homes. And they included market rate in the so The goal is really 1000 deed restricted permanently portable and included mercury, because they recognize that we can't. solve this problem entirely by ensuring deed restriction, at the same time it's really difficult to track market market rate middle income right because those changes prices fluctuate on a year to year basis.

[16:14] So these are the challenges, this is what I wanted to spend most of the time talking about in love it if you had some questions but keep in mind. We talked about this a little bit last time so that first bullet i'm going to focus on homeownership because remember rent Rentals are are attainable. Market over the past 10 years it's been producing almost entirely Rentals very few ownership units when you're talking about attached products condominium, so there are multitude of factors that we've talked about a little bit you know the construction defect law. But the real really reason, I believe, and what i've heard from others, is that it has to do with your performance.

[17:01] array I had a quick question. sure. About that first bullet point, yes, when you say the market is producing almost all Rentals is that, across all. Socio economic demographics, or is that just for the middle income when when you're talking about Rentals that are detached Rentals i'm sorry the attached townhomes is that what you're talking about are doing that all all housing. I would say in general, all housing so um so think about the market in terms of fluctuating over time so. You know, when we first started the program for inclusion airy housing and affordable housing program back in the 1990s pretty much everything that was getting built was ownership, it was all condos it was all single family and there were even memo I found some memos that Council.

[18:01] wrote or staff wrote to counsel, in which they were expressing Councils desire we're getting too much ownership, we need Rentals because people can't afford to live in boulder and now that sort of dynamic has shifted a little bit. We do get occasionally condo development but they're extremely high end so they don't have to worry about the construction defects it's typically it's really well constructed high end stuff. But, as I was about to say, and I think it has to do with the financing piece, and the the performance, they have a rental project person ownership project, so my understanding and talking to people is that right now in the cost of land is just so hard in boulder. The construction costs the permitting process, the time that it takes the uncertainty all those things add to the cost. And an ownership product you basically you build a product and you turn it over you sell it and you have to be able to get a rate of return.

[19:08] To make it worth your time right and the way that Rentals are more attractive it's because you have a much longer period of time, so you're gonna have renters paying rent for 20 or 30 years, and so you can work that into your performance and it looks more much more attractive. And, but again there's lots of other things that's probably a very simplistic way of looking at it, but the point I was trying to make is that you know it's difficult for the city to control the market. and say exactly what we want and so that's the third bullet, so we can see, we can't require ownership units we can't say well you know we're getting too many Rentals we'd rather have ownership, we can say that, but we can't regulate it. And then the other challenge, and you know a lot of this i'm talking about our again permanently affordable deed restricted, but the tools that we use to get those permanently affordable units, the low income housing tax credits, those are only available to low and moderate income households.

[20:13] You can't use a lighter or light tech to serve middle income, so our biggest tool in the toolbox to build affordable housing and boulder we can't use for middle income. So the fourth one has to do with the annexation so probably noticed, I mean, with the exception of see you South I mean there are definitely fewer annotations and the annexation is we're getting are much smaller. So we're not getting in northfield commons we're not getting holiday neighborhood. And so, these smaller annotations it's really difficult to require too much middle income, although that's more of the things that we've done is require more middle income ownership units, as part of annexation but we're just not getting amazing.

[21:02] And I think we talked about that, before as well. And then it's also it's pretty significant subsidy right so we're talking about ownership and we're talking about. allowing people to purchase a home in boulder that subsidy required to buy down the purchase price to make sure to make our you know say the median price of the home in boulder affordable to the middle income household. it's pretty significant I mean it can be upwards of 200,000 or even $300,000 for one unit. Whereas in our often our average substitute for a low and moderate income moderate income unit is you know ranges anywhere from 60 to just over 100 so pretty big difference and then it becomes a pretty significant. You know policy decisions like whoa which is more important for us to address in terms of our subsidy.

[22:03] And then the final bullet under ownership is is really that competition from the surrounding neighborhoods so like I said, even if we did provide. More middle income units if we're talking about deed restriction units their appreciation is limited and so someone who's earning you know 120,000 or or more. You know, are they going to want to make that choice to purchase a home and asset that's going to have a CAP depreciation. When they can spend a comparable amount of money and have a slightly longer commute and some people will make that choice I you know I definitely believe that but again it's it's questionable how how many are going to make that choice. So, as I talked about rental definitely are more attainable or they are attainable. And then, I just wanted to address a little bit in terms of the what we hear quite a bit, as you know, build it and they will come this idea that we if we just said, you must build in.

[23:08] You know missing middle housing types, that will be that will somehow help solve our problems, and it, you know just I have, I have difficulty. Believing that just because even the way because of land prices, the cost of construction Labor everything that i've talked about. Even an attached products. New construction it's not going to be attainable to middle income households, it may set that bill for the missing middle housing time. But I have a difficult time, believing that it's going to be actually market rate affordable to middle income households So those are the challenges that's the really the new slide. We can come back to that if you have more questions, but I did want to talk more about the tools and just a quick reminder, so we have the four key tools from the strategy i'm going to start with, to the cinema middle income Community benefits zoning so.

[24:13] That is something that we've done, we have a policy in place, it was applied to mount calvary most recently exclusionary housing, we have a new middle income tier that's required so 5% of all new housing has to be an income, the 20% is for. The additional Community benefit for annexation we talked about as well, so now middle income is more of an emphasis so we're getting more units that way. it's the land use and policy really that we haven't. made a whole lot of progress on and that's a really difficult one right, how do you make sort of this missing middle the easiest. cheapest thing to build up there, so that a developer is incentivized to build that type of housing that serves markets, we really want that would, in my opinion, requires significant overhaul of our zoning code all of our regulations to really.

[25:15] You know, get the to get the outcomes, we want I think we'd have to revisit how we regulate don't land you simple there again that's my opinion. But. there's. There is a B list preservation, so we have been doing a lot quite a bit of this we're getting older, housing partners has been. Purchasing middle income units, as part of acquisition and so they did that attention lakes there so middle income rental units power that housing donation legacy program we've gotten two homes through that Program. The h2o alone, this is a shared appreciation low, and this is from market rate homes and we extended that this year to beyond 80% am I, all the way up to 150% Am I so it's a basically up to a $50,000 loan that's not a back at.

[26:15] Basically, at the time of sale or refinance and basically basically sort of a down payment assistance Program. So that was done additional funding to district homes this when I talked about this in August we had just started this program. And we went under contracts, just last week for first condominium in South boulder that we purchased on the market, and then we will deed restrict it and sell it to someone in the program middle income and. So the idea is that once we sell that program we will take the proceeds from that sale and go out and purchase another home and so another way to increase our inventory of deed restricted middle income homes.

[27:04] And the rehab have I don't know why that didn't show up. That was the one to one ordinance that was adopted by Council. And then EDU ordinance, as I mentioned before, was part of the overall middle income as well, and then like I said down payment assistance. Is where we're really focusing our efforts for the market rate preservation like I just talked about purchasing that condiments folder. The modular factory we're getting still getting closer to that, but that will is one way where we can reduce our overall construction costs and hopefully be able to partner with. Our other affordable housing partners to build more more units more efficiently and at lower costs. And then, of course, continue to pursue funding and again just some examples of the middle income units that we do have today.

[28:06] Do have quite a bit of variety, we have the. velo and the airport airport way in the settle motel. At 1996, and so we have 14 middle income units at both of those projects. And we're probably this is going to be our best year in terms of producing middle income units in the history of the Program. Like just gives you a sense of how many we have in the program 111 the bedroom size, the type when they came into the Program. And I think. Anyway, I hope that wasn't too repetitive, but it's not maybe Jennifer would appreciate that a little bit to just a quick rehash. Any thoughts questions anything you want to call me on.

[29:00] Because I don't claim to have all the answers just based on my limited experience and, of course, this is all based on my. Experience my judgment, I don't claim to be infallible or know all the answers. And we definitely have not figured out how to solve this problem, and I think it's going to take a lot of people and a lot of thought and a lot of time to really make a significant dent, but I just wanted to share what we've been doing. Thank you Jay I think I see maybe three hands up so Julia we'll start with you. Thanks Jerry that was great. My well, I had a comment and a question something i've heard a lot is that. boulder real estate has started to attract the attention not started but it's fully attracted the attention of institutional investors. outside of this market and your point Jay about the returns, clearly, if you can create an asset that produces a revenue stream in perpetuity.

[30:11] That looks a whole lot better than just building something and selling it because the returns not going to be nearly the same it's not it's not a revenue stream for a long period of time, so. I don't know that I mean one of my questions is how do we make holder less attractive to institutional investors, because That to me is part of what squeezing people out. They have better access to capital they can they can get loans at a cheaper rate, they have better economies of scale when it comes to developing things, and they have a lot of savvy when it comes to real estate development expertise so. that's really a question is it does any of those tools address that issue, or are there things that older could do to address that issue as a community or is that, just like a socialist concert.

[31:12] Then i'm you know, asking and completely ridiculous in our country. I wouldn't say it's completely ridiculous, I mean I think it's more pronounced in other communities than boulder but doesn't mean it won't get worse here. Because it is an attractive place to invest in real estate, I mean I think that's been the case for quite some time older never seen a dip in real estate prices, where most of the rest of the country hands, it just flattens out and then keeps growing again. We have talked about you know what can we do. And we've consulted with the city attorney's office trying to figure out some creative solutions. And it's just it's really challenging it's like, how do you differentiate between you know, so I have a rental.

[32:04] And you know i'm sure several board members also probably have a rental, how do you differentiate from the people who have one or two Rentals that are helping you know put their kids through college versus being that industrial renter. or commercial record of that. is basically using other people's money to. As a business venture so yeah it does sort of the difficulty of regulating and is one piece, and then the question is, you said it sort of you know is that are we willing to meddle in the market, to that extent. But I don't have a great answer for you, maybe others on the board have thoughts or opinions opinions on that too. Well, I think danny's got the answers i'm gonna call that. I think I think invariably there needs to be some meddling in the market is the only way to have a hat try to affect you in any controls over that unfortunately there's.

[33:09] real innovation. In terms of what you can do limitations on rent control as i'm sure we're all aware, you know its statutory and you know, through our case law. That said, I mean if you look at how so many jurisdictions nowadays are, including the city have clamped down over the past few years on short term Rentals as well, so there is, you know some. Some area some some workable area where you could do some things but it's incredibly daunting I mean I don't know the answer to it, I just think to me and every time I look at this presentation, every time we wrestle with these issues. You know Jay I guess that couple questions that I add, is you know, in terms of.

[34:00] You know use code revisions. and adopt a new policies. me, you could have some sort of middle income overlay that would. apply from district to district. which will provide certain exceptions are incentives for people to build middle income. units and make them, you know attainable to some degree, and I guess My other question to that would be. If you could just kind of very broadly kind of walk us through like the deed restriction process, I heard. So you know where does it come out in terms of initial sale price and then appreciation caps or what's the mechanism to. Secure unit and then maintain that unit as affordable at. least to some extent. Over the course of years. Let me answer your second one, first because i'm going to need to repeat the first one, but um so the second one so i'm going to give you in a real life example so.

[35:10] To get that unit market rate unit affordable in perpetuity requires the subsidy right so basically you have to buy it on the market like we're doing with this condo and sell folder so we're going to buy it for say. I think it's about 410,000. Two bedrooms two baths. So that's what the market says it's worth the we put a covenant on it that says the appreciation has to be kept based on a formula and that's basically averaged 1.9% over the last 10 years. So that's. it's a 1.9% CAP appreciation. It changes year to year, sometimes bigger sometimes it's smaller depends on the consumer price index and other things that are happening.

[36:00] To make that home, so that home would would basically be affordable to someone earning say 120 230% Am I. To get it down to 100% Am I I roughly we're going to have to subsidize it by down by about $100,000 maybe 125. Right and then so that's the cost us to be able to provide say 100%. Ownership unit. So yeah it's doable but it's again that subsidy is pretty significant and the higher your income you go you get up to 120% hundred and 50% that subsidy grows so. And the challenge there, too, is that you're competing with the market so. again. could do a deed restricted home. But there they might be able to find comparable unit elsewhere in the county or just outside of the county and not have the appreciation CAP right.

[37:03] So I guess my question, so a couple things so what I was saying is i'm so understanding how the Covenant works i'm. A, it would seem to me. That if if we if we're talking about incentivizing development of units right so let's say I had land and I could get. An increase in the amount of density that I could develop on a portion of the land, if I developed middle income, and so it sounds like really The goal is more in the neighborhood of 120 hundred 30 am I, which I think is great um and so. At that point in time, it, you know the the developer right. would have to put that that covenant in place from the initial sale, the unit and then from there, it just carries forward. And you know you'd have to hope that. boulder still in the in the marketplace why you don't get as as much as you might in Westminster you're also in boulder and there's certain benefits, there too, but that whole notion of.

[38:09] incentivizing development by you know, having density allowances and stuff I mean I really think. i'm saying what i've seen that's the best way, and then you have that that covenant in place, and then the other thing. That I was going to throw out that i've seen work really pretty effectively, especially when you're doing buy downs, which is the other thing that you're essentially talking about right, you know when you when you buy it you're restricted and then you sell it for a lower price. But if you have some sort of sweat equity component, so that somebody can come in there and they can actually build sweat equity without you know. shooting the the confines that you're trying to get to you know that's another thing that i've seen work pretty well and so that those are two things that i'm saying just you know, in terms of. what's in the Covenant there are a lot of things that you can put in the Covenant that can be really helpful, but in terms of the land use and zoning code.

[39:00] And you know the whole notion is what I was saying is I don't know if it's been considered, but if you have. A middle income overlay that reaches out so instead of redoing the entire is only code right the entire land use code, you have some sort of overlay. that reaches out, you know from all the different zoning districts and all the different types of regulations that you know allows certain exceptions when you're developing middle income units. To me, that would be a wonderful thing to see because that point in time at the 121 30 1:50am I entry level. I think there starts to become a pretty considerable incentive for developers, who are looking to. You know kind of increase density, rather than just sell super high scale homes. And there's always going to be people that are out there, there, and whatever community is even an aspirin right, so that those are just my thoughts on on things that you know I would love to see. That can you know effectively work because cutting the checks, you know we can never compete you know, like Julian said we're never going to be able to compete with.

[40:04] You know the bottomless pits that you're seeing come in and school property so, but we have a we get to write the regulations so. there and they appreciate that, so this sweat equity idea I mean that's basically the habitat model yeah so we definitely try to encourage that in terms of using zoning as a tool, you know we have that policy that's the Community benefits zoning. Right applied it for at mount calvary so the city already has said and Council, we have this policy and the COMP plan that we will not resolved or property up zone or property without getting something in return. Right, so the challenges, you have to find those properties right. yeah anytime you propose a rezoning or an appt zoning in boulder. it's it can be challenging yeah i've been through a few quite a few battles.

[41:00] on that. and have the scars to show it so. And we'll talk about this next month, I think I think he's boulder presents that opportunity right, so the idea is taking in some industrial land. And, not all of it, some in select places and conferring additional value on that land but, in exchange, they need to produce the housing, that we want to see. So. Great Thank you Danny and jack has a comment. Oh you're still muted job. There we go sorry um. I think that. You know juliet's. Question initially. You know, is one that obviously takes some.

[42:04] A hard look at how you might accomplish something of that sort, but. Julian I, for one thing that that is something that. Is kind of the creative edge from a governance perspective and a zoning perspective. of how you would how you might achieve something like that, because what i'm seeing is obviously land costs. We need to identify land J, as you were saying like are there parcels that we can bring in, and you know one question, I would have is how aggressively have we been doing that and how much more aggressively can we do it, I think. You know the zoning and the up you know I mean i'm paying i'm paying by the. By you know some of the public lands public zoning that has gone over the last 510 years to.

[43:05] Private developers with. For my perspective, much less of a benefit than the Community should get for something that was done public. Especially those pieces and I know there's not many of them left around anyway, but so to look really hard at what's out there, as far as land and how we might engage with it, I think, is a critical piece, and then the other one is Jay was saying is. And, and this kind of leads a little bit into Julius pieces. What can we do from a regulatory standpoint that dis incentivizes the properties for for profit market rate builders and incentivizes them more for habitats or others I mean i'm a i'm a builder i'm a small scale guy but like. I i'd happily try to jump in, and you know i'm actually looking in other towns where I can afford with what i've got.

[44:06] To say hey look i'm a developer here who wants to do something i'm willing to do this for lesser profit numbers but I need help from the city to do that, and what can we do to incentivize more strongly those developers, you know those people that come in and. You know I don't that's why we're here I don't think we have the answers to any of these things, yet, but I do think that everything from what Juliet saying. To doing a strong sweep the J, you might be able to tell us about what we've done for sweeping the city kind of and identifying properties, I know there's been some effort in that kind of purchasing ourselves on them. But yeah we've got it, I think you know Julia was, and I think all of us kind of feel like oh my God the market can we ever like, but obviously effectively the market will shift when people are pushed so hard.

[45:08] That it no longer serves us and our communities being pushed at that point, so I think that's a totally valid question Juliet I don't think it's a. socialist concept, I think it's a subtitle concept and and so you know I think I think we should be willing to look into that more So those are just my feelings on this stuff. Thank you, thank you jack and there's a cat. will do yeah yeah. I just had, I don't know if this applies, but the the idea of opportunity zones popped into my head. And that's going to attract a lot of institutional dollars to neighborhoods in boulder. And i'm I know that that's a an ownership model where an outside investor needs to hold the asset for I believe 10 years and they don't pay any capital.

[46:01] gains taxes on it once they do once they're allowed to sell it 10 years into the future, that is, that about right that's my understanding how it works so. So is there a way to take that opportunities on land and apply some kind of. Rules around it in terms of what is allowed for development and force force housing development and force. middle income housing in particular middle income product type. and force a certain amount of it to be deed restricted, I guess, if they're owning it they can't really sell it right away for people who want to purchase it but. What you know, because it could there be a by down over time or anyway, that that whole opportunity zone, because it is such a large swath of land. And I think about iris hollow which is right across the street from diagonal Plaza iris hollow is a great little.

[47:00] middle income housing community that feels like it's a little a little neighborhood and why couldn't you do something like that, and make it feel like a little neighborhood across the street or 20th in that diagonal Plaza. So, again I don't know about how we could regulate around the opportunities, but is there an opportunity to do that, or is it just too restrictive, because of how the tax laws changed from a federal level. And thank you Julia i'll comment, a little bit one is. i'm really glad that you updated and repeated your presentation i'm missing metal because I think what's changed since that since August Jay is we've identified that as a key direction for hab and you did add some good. Material there also I think juliet's point as we have this Easter wrap over discussion.

[48:01] Next month we can view that, through the lens of missing middle policies in terms of what can a locality do. To encourage desirable development I think there's some examples, my understanding is in Seattle. there's a program to offer tax breaks to developers and that would be property tax breaks, who develop a certain type of housing. that's probably been done some other places as well, and right now Denver is grappling with these issues being time they have an effort underway called expanding housing affordability using market. techniques, you know basically leveraging the market there's been a test for us working on this and consultants recommendations are going to counsel early next year, and it really gets into that delicate balance of carrots and sticks.

[49:00] How much do you regulate. And what point do the impact fees become counterproductive by either raising the price of real estate and making things less affordable or actually scaring away. and development in some cases in button reinvestment in neighborhoods that you'd like to see investment so it's definitely a process worth following that we're also getting involved in. Three ui so just a couple of thoughts I think that's still. really come up big time and we talked about Easter apo next month. And I damn question bj. During the heyday of inclusion rezoning and requirements to build affordable on site, we do have a rough number of how many homes, they actually produced for sale. In that middle income range, because those would still be out there and occupied by.

[50:03] Our middle income people. yeah I mean we could go the dashboard will tell you, so you can. Just like that slide I showed you, you can look at how many units were created in each year. So it'd be yeah the early 2000s and the challenges of Vegas you're not going to be able to know whether or not it was through annexation or through exclusionary housing. Because the bulk of the homeownership units, we got through annexation. But yeah I mean that could be. If you're interested I can try to tease that out a little bit. I did want to just acknowledge juliet's comment about the opportunity zones. You know that that becomes a huge political discussion just mentioning the word two words opportunities and creates lots of controversy.

[51:00] But yeah I think that's definitely the right track is sort of if they're getting additional value right through this tool work in the city extract and I think that was a lot of discussion around the macy's deal. And the agreement that that was that they agree to. And I don't I don't recall all the details, but basically that was part of the reason why. The city requested. More concessions from the developer. But yeah I think you're definitely on the right track. One more comment. In boulder has had success limited success but significant with land making and that's how we got 30 port Pearl I mean that land was see purchase that it. Probably what would seem like a fire sale today's prices in 2001, I believe, and you know that's what makes it possible to build a mixed income.

[52:01] Nice quality project. question is other other opportunities out there, so he does control some land. i've been an advocate not that anyone's taking this is too seriously if incorporating housing into public facilities, because it's the place where you can control that, and you know why not put housing and the library. For example, doing expand the housing stock and yeah I mean we it's very difficult to fight capitalism and control investment trends, but there are certain things we control primarily regulatory and, in some cases, land, maybe we can have more that discussion today or next month. um, can I just add just since you brought up the future opportunities so. Council again brought up the planning reserve and last couple of meetings so. That work will progress between now and the next comprehensive plan update in five years, or in 2025 I should say.

[53:06] So the planning reserves definitely on the horizon, which is a significant opportunity, particularly for middle income ownership opportunities. And then the city facilities piece as well, so remember, we talked about the consolidation of city services to Alpine balsam and also the municipal Center in the East is Pearl so a lot of those scattered sites throughout the city that the city will be looking to divest. Housing has made it super clear that we are interested in purchasing those. For housing so and and that's definitely will be an opportunity. Some of them may be more appropriate than others. But the challenge with a lot of city facilities is that they're often bought with lots of strings attached so think about open space or parkland things like that cannot be repurposed for housing without paying market value for it.

[54:08] So there are limitations, but it's definitely. I would just say on our radar. Thank you Jay Danny. Really quick planet bring up to July this goes to your point and one of the things that really we do have some control of to and where you can kind of. Probably exhibit a little more tinker with the market from from an enterprise perspective would be. utilities and infrastructure, so I just throw that out there, because I think that's really where there's going to need to be some of that if you know we're ever going to take that approach is you know we can. Certainly tinker with you know, whatever are applicable rates are for utilities and infrastructure in a way that kind of directs development and.

[55:00] And things towards the direction we want to see it go from a Community so again it's going to take a lot of. Controversial decisions and regulations, but you know, hopefully there's something. Thank you jack. Day, when you were talking about you know the cost to buy down properties let's say that we wanted to get to 100% and, obviously, you know. The lower we're going, the more the more we need to do that. I guess to me that the other piece that we haven't yet talked about here are the funding streams. And I guess that question is like if we were to try to make a robust that program more robust and say Okay, we actually have the funding, what do you know what those numbers would look like to make us a significant impact, you know.

[56:11] In the middle income and I guess the back side of that is even if we created that funding stream are there properties that you know, are there enough properties, then, to support that the you know the allocation of those funds. But it does seem to me that that's the one piece that we also you know, have to deal with, and as Danny says well you know if we're kind of shifting the burden of utilities and we're giving benefit to. One developer, who wants to do something that's you know, affordable and another developer who's doing a for profit kind of thing we're kind of shifting the costs between those two revenue streams whose it's coming from because we got to pay for our utilities, the end of the day.

[57:04] You know so again that kind of thing that danny's talking about also might be supported by increased funding mechanisms and i'm just going back to that place, I know that you know the city's. dabbled in it before, but you know if we really want to kind of achieve these things that we're talking about do we need to get serious about talking about. affordable housing fun that comes through you know, like an open space tax whatever something of that sort, we put our. We put our money where our mouth is, with open space, is it possible to same thing, or are there other methods to go down that road, so you know just to to keep that piece also on our plate. There you get a lot in there john. I know. That was good. So the last part I mean remember, we talked about how the regional housing partnership is talked about putting a ballot measure on it was last year for other property tax or sales tax to find affordable housing.

[58:15] So obviously didn't happen this year again. But those conversations are starting up, so it likely will be discussed in a lot more detail next year or the following year. We. will definitely keep you guys updated is this to that. To. Your other good stuff in there and now now i'm kind of blanking on what you what you talked about shock i'm sorry. let's talk about money. Hello yeah. well. yeah now The other thing. down how much you know how much will we needed a pool to make that. yeah yeah. Now, thank you for that reminder, though, and I appreciate your question about.

[59:02] You know, basically subsidizing affordable housing through utilities, or you know, reduce permitting fees that those have to get paid somehow and then just sort of in my my personal opinion, in my experience is that it becomes a Shell game. Housing ends up paying for it in the end, but we spend a lot more money in business duration shuffling that money around and it's not in my again, in my opinion, not a very good use of resources. So we help pay for it, regardless, and will continue to do that for sure. In terms of what would be needed to really make a dent. We haven't run the numbers yet because we're kind of dipping our toe in the water right with this, this is our first purchase of a market rate unit that we're going to buy down. We haven't even figured out exactly what the sales price is going to be yet so you know, we want to make sure we get the first one right and see if this is a model that we can continue to replicate, but we have set aside.

[60:09] A million and a half dollars next year and a million and a half dollars, the following year for this so that will allow us to buy down quite a few units, we were we're hopeful it's going to be like 30 to 40. Take stuff time to go the process of purchasing home, I mean it's it's time consuming and expensive. But i'll keep you updated to let you know how it goes yeah. Okay, and. Just to clarify when I was talking about the utility so we're not really pertaining fees as much as you know, pistes inclusion fees, etc, and I guess my point would be not just providing the benefit of a reduction for certain types of housing, but. You can have to really charge much higher rates for non desired types of housing that's the way to do it because I agree that if these you're just taking money that you know you you're just going from a static static bundle.

[61:10] But you start really increasing the fees and you say all right if you're, you know as capital investor group and you're coming in you're buying all these properties and you're building. You know, high end developments, you know this is it's a lot easier to do that than to regulate what they do, or how they use their units a lot easier to say I set my rates, based on my policies and that's The only point that I was you had one per week away from that perspective. Right and Danny I guess that's kind of one of my one of my questions there if I can jump back in as. You know, for you particularly so that is because my concern was like can you do that, legally, can you say for this group, this is the rate for that group that's the rate is there, there are avenues to do that, where you don't get yourself in trouble somehow I don't know. there's a lot more with that than there is in terms of controlling rents are controlling everything else there's a lot, a lot more with that, so I represent several special districts and and.

[62:09] pretty much any special district their their rate schedule is a reflection of their policy ideals to some yo way, shape or form right because. In terms of how they do eq ours in terms of how they charge rates, you know the. classic one that we we've seen a lot of jurisdictions in Colorado lately is irrigation water so water, you know the your tap fees for water for your blue grass lawns etc is incredibly high now. I just worked on a rate increase you know we just increased it again because. keep trying to drum it and you would much rather you know you didn't build all these elaborate lawns etc right, and so there are a lot more there's a lot more flexibility in terms of what you could do. To Ford policy from that perspective, then there is from trying to regulate what somebody does with their private property, where, then you know because it's not an enterprise right that's just regulation any any sort of water source etc that's an enterprise, you have.

[63:15] More flexibility for sure. check. Those questions question for Danny, since this is your business and you work in the mountains, my understanding is that Aspen, of all places, has actually done a pretty good job of creating that revenue stream stream to provide affordable housing. Something like 3000 units in and around the town. So they got a real estate trainers for tags like i've had that for 1520 years. They have a dedicated affordable housing tax which kind of gets to jack's point why can't we have a tax like but open space tax I think they're working on a. Basically, a luxury tax So if you want to build your $20 million House you got to pay big chunk of change yeah what fun that goes directly into purchase of land.

[64:06] Something like $350,000 So what do you know about that might, could you share. yeah and so those those are a lot of the mechanisms, where again you're you're you're starting to push the envelope a little, but it's certainly been employed in a lot of the mountain communities. saying you know we're it's such a crisis level, you know we're going to draw the line in the sand and, if you want to take us on take a son, but yeah the luxury tax you brought up, I mean it's a great example, so one of the other things. So I can summon county we have an impact fee and that impact fee is driven by the square footage of the home so it's not just the. Standard steady base fee it's scaled you know and so where you're building one of these gigantic luxury mountain homes. you're paying a hell of a lot more in terms of the impact fee and then there's use tax as well, and so, those are things that have been utilized and you know as well as. Having a referendum, where we have.

[65:01] built a tax base for it, but those are absolutely things that have been utilized and pretty effectively and again it's running uphill in mud unfortunately right because. As the more the more policies you effectuate then, then the prices of the homes go up even more, and then you know and it's like okay Well, now we need to generate more, but the bottom line is you know we talked about boulder we're talking about Aspen we talked about breckenridge. Every little bit that you do really kind of helps the problem for exacerbating really much more dramatically. If there wasn't any any sort of effort there, and so I think all those things can be utilized there has been and that's what i'm saying really we're, to the point where the two things. That, I think, are the most effective mechanisms here a bold regulation slash taxation, you know taxation is kind of part of regulation and then. And that would include you know. fees like ability fees paths connection fees inclusion fees.

[66:04] You know that's what you know Jay was talking about annotations are always a tool you use you say you owe you want to come in, you want to come in and join the party, you know. here's here's the cover charge right, but the other and the other part, is really that i've seen that's worked, and I know even places like Aspen have used is when density is it's such a premium. You know the density bonuses, that you can provide you know, this is, I think, fundamentally, all of these communities have done such an incredible job controlling growth. are running into a little bit of the come up it's of controlling growth, which is that prices start skyrocketing right so. I think the best way to kind of close that close that loop is to say now we're going to utilize density as a really effective mechanism. To try to direct what kind of growth, we want to see, or what kind of development, we want to see and and that's why I was bringing up the whole notion that if you could say well you know. You can get a really significant density bonus if you're doing middle income housing where it doesn't have the same restrictions as other types of housing like 1:50am I now we're starting to you know talk we're there's there's you know fairly good return on the investment.

[67:17] that's just one of the other tools that I think has been utilized in a lot of mountain communities and is going to be need to be utilized a lot more, because you know those are those are the biggest tools we have a toolbox we can't out fund the market no entity can that's. that's the challenge right and to that point about affordability, I mean Fiona and I both have a neighbor that built a. $3.8 million spec house and I wouldn't shed a lot of tears if that person had to pay a big. luxury tax on that that went into an affordability find I mean it's not a conversation for today, but just something to think about the future, especially if that's a tool. That other other families are using you know and that doesn't affect the person trying to get into the entry level condo or you know building an EDU or turn your home into a duplex or some of these other tools we but you know.

[68:12] If you can afford the 3.8 million, you can afford more than that to. for the public good. Exactly exactly. Other comments thanks for Julia cheese liberated me. yeah we're not a pig Julian is a socialist. No, I mean we're all crypto socialist, I think. Just kidding so I can I just add and I appreciate any clarifying because. I agree, I mean, I have tried to argue that particularly like when we did our updates inclusion our housing ordinance. was like, why are we charging significantly more cash in lieu for a single family home as opposed to you know smaller units, the differences pretty negligible, but the difference in the ability to pay significant.

[69:04] But it's been a difficult argument to make to our legal folks so just to be open about that, I mean it's it well it's used in other communities, it has not been it's been difficult to sort of pursue in boulder. And, and you know they're definitely valid reasons we even looked at sort of what about a second home tax, I mean, is there a way to. You know how do you recoup some of that and but. Is there a way to tax homes over a certain value or if it's a second home, not their primary residence, so we have looked at a lot of different things. But the the advice that we get is those would be likely challenged in would be difficult to implement so anyway, I just want to let you know that we are direction but.

[70:01] The thing is, yet as a nation of our community continues people might be a little more open minded about some of these things but anyway jack you had a comment. is actually kind of right along the lines of what Jay was just saying, which was like the you know. I build these homes and it's like how i'm feeding my family right now, and how i'm staying in boulder but the homes that i'm building. Are on you know 15,000 square foot lots or more and they're huge homes that are occupied two months, out of the year. Sometimes less literally I mean I have clients that I build homes for over the years and they're here it's just another vacation home. And so I guess just the thing that i'm getting at is all of these things, I think you know the concept is okay we're not going to wipe the market off the table we can't compete head to head with it either, but regulatory we can decrease the opening and tighten the opening.

[71:07] For certain types of housing, that we as a Community essentially. I mean we are saying effectively people jump on my case for this we. We are not valuing certain types of housing here as much as we value other types of housing, because we see the impact it's having on our Community, at the end of the day, and so we want to. lower the bar as much as possible while increasing the bar and ideally as Danny saying using these. regulatory or fee structure mechanisms that when they benefit one side that benefit tips to the other side right, so I mean I. I like to hear that we're throwing these things out there, because I think we often or people often are hesitant to do so, but I do feel like as a Community, we are at that point where. If we're going to solve this problem we have to take some some you know, maybe some harder risks as day saying, maybe we need to get different legal opinions and push hard enough so.

[72:11] We just want to put a jacket on a business open. Because, but my point being is if somebody. You know, have that kind of money to afford a House that a little more is not going to kill them and i'm not putting on the builder it's got to come from somewhere, but it seems like the money's there. It is that's. Eventually, at some point in time, you have to that's what I was saying, draw a line in the sand, legally and say all right i'm ready to take this to the mat you know, and you try to craft as much as you can to. You know troubleshoot before you do that, but you know there's some of that yeah i'll be honest, one of the things that a lot of the mountain communities have done. To you know really effectuate those kinds of policies on second homes is they have.

[73:01] Referendums where most of the second Homeowners aren't voters in the in the Community, and so they put it out to vote and they're like you know, would you like property tax for daycare and people who would have their say. Well, absolutely you know and the people who are against it, you say well you know where you're interested about okay nevermind and so there's a little bit of that it's a little a little easier from that perspective, but I still do think. You know, there are a lot of things that you can do Where are you going to stay on this side of being challenged and, on this side of. You know, pushing too far and legally where you know you have to, but you have to start trying to set that bar to get there, because if not. You know the problem is for every giant trophy home that gets built that doesn't carry you know, and then you can articulate the The carbon footprint the all the other different impacts, the impacts to housing directly right from every giant home that's built every second home and spill.

[74:01] And then try to you know, try to figure out when when it's time to go to the mat if you have to, but it is challenging I absolutely understand, I was in. I was in that position for a long time and it's really hard to it's easy to say, from this perspective yeah when you sit in that office it's much harder to say oh yeah sure no problem so. Great well you know, this is all this far ranging is certainly pertinent and if we are going to focus on missing middle housing strategies in 2022 will get the discussion pretty shortly. guess the question for Jay like at what point do we start taking ideas to. See attorneys and kind of road testing them a little bit. anytime. We just need to be a bit coherent in terms of what it is we think we want.

[75:02] What would be the most effective and then they might take a little bit of time, but they will provide advice to staff, at least in terms of. What their legal opinion as to how viable an idea might be. But again it's it's advice, and I think danny's point was at some point it's a political decision and we will get to the point of an aspirin where we will you know. We will want to extract more from the one thing. So a couple of things have been suggested that can come up in 2022 one is to do a listening session missing middle. housing. And perhaps using the previous model springboard from that to a White Paper, you know teasing out some of these ideas pros and cons.

[76:03] i'm just kind of putting it out there, as you just download it to your vote on, but what would what would people think of that is you know potentially part of our work planning for next year. well. I think that would be. Great I mean, I think that really you know when we're talking about having to have more of a streamlined focus in terms, our lead counsel and stuff and you know, hopefully by then maybe we can have that listen session in person. I think middle income, I mean you know shocks mentioned so many times how. daunting it is for people who live here middle middle income people who live here who want to do something like a remodel and stuff like that, and I think having. All those different kinds of stories and perspectives and the listening session would be. Incredibly, effective and could be a great springboard for a lot of the concepts that we're talking about saying we'd like to at least have these things explored, a week suggest these things.

[77:00] could be explored as possible, you know mechanisms to try to help address what we're all concerned about here. Thank you Danny other comments. Please. I see pete has joined us so she joined a while ago, but I think. I think I heard that the planning Board was also. Interested on addressing the missing middle puzzle, and some of their work, and I want to make sure we're whatever we do we're mindful of the work of other boards towards this and that we incorporate. ideas and maybe bounce different ideas and hear what you know what different boards are talking about doing so that we can. You know, streamline some solution proposals, instead of doing it all in our own little vacuum we'll have more. More success that way, and obviously we got a ton of expertise here on this on this board people who have like what Danny was talking about, but Lu pete I don't know if you have the ability to comment.

[78:13] Right now about that, and what what your boards focusing on. um well. Thank you Julia. Like I mentioned before, when the topic comes what we have realizes what a big challenge it really is, and so I personally will suggest that maybe a discussion with this board. may be a good idea. so that you know it's better to kind of come together to some sort of strategy if if if there's such a way to develop one. Because right now we have the discussions, but the challenges are that I think the major problems is that is the financial side.

[79:02] That we to this day what we mean in the city does not really have resources to subsidize, for example, something to make it make it more affordable for the missing middle and also to incentivize. You know the developers as Jay said, you know it's really have turned into a flip from where there was mostly single family housing to now Rentals and. We haven't talked about this in a while I mean like a an in depth manner and the poor and the board because we've had adding all kinds of challenging topics, if you haven't been. attending you know it's like every single meeting is like this big issue that we have to go out after know so we haven't revisited this cut these topics since last time Jay came by is that right Jay.

[80:00] yeah that sounds about right, but I think now yeah now that your committee has really gone not only the seminar, but a more in depth discussion, I think it may be a good idea to. Talk to board to the board the plenty more that is about maybe having a joint session or something about this specific topic, if you think that. That makes sense. Thanks to Peter for for commenting that's great and jax jax got his hand up but. I was just gonna ask you Jay i'm you know, I think. we've had we've had joint meetings with. Other boards before or human resources. and I guess the question I would have is is there some is there some format that you've seen for boards to.

[81:08] kind of work together on a path and some structure that works well there that maybe start smaller before you know we get two boards to sit down together in one meeting. Because I do think that that is a critical piece of it that there's not enough discussion. To kind of you know. Have these ideas germinate on both sides, at the same time, so that we can you know have more effective process. Where. I mean the you know the have htc is sort of the. closest recent memory of. Collaboration between two boards. But that was a really wasn't I mean there was one kind of joint listening session.

[82:01] I mean that's one approach. I don't know i'd have to think about that more and I think, maybe it would be to. She might be helpful for her tell us a chat with planning board about it i'm just saying is that something planning board would be interested in safe and some ideas as well. yeah I mean I can bring it up during you know. Towards the end though our meetings you know their new matters or something I think is the title and he said that you know that in our last. Your last meeting it was brought up that maybe we should consider a joint session or some some sort of maybe not full scale, but some sort of. Activity together um I can bring that up next week, we have the next meeting next week. If that's okay you guys. Sure, thank you Danny.

[83:01] Danny have something to say. yeah, I repeat, I think I mean I think that's great and Juliet just bringing that up because I mean really yeah how many times like we spent a lot of time here talking about the. The regulatory and land use part of this and stuff being you know, a huge driving mechanism to get towards where we want to go and, and I mean, I think it can be incredibly effective, I think. I think that would be just. A great focal point that in a listening session, you know, whatever machination would be a great focal point in terms of the things we really kind of shoot for for next year, so I think would be incredible you know and the amount of insight, we can share with each other. from some sort of joint meeting would be incredibly helpful. Great. Thank you. Any wisdom from the previous joint meeting with HR see and. That was interesting was that affected did it produce some good results.

[84:10] I guess. yeah. I guess I guess that's why I asked the question of of Jay. You know because I didn't feel that that was a bad meeting and I think the kind of specificity of it allowed it to work pretty well. But it seems to me like this is almost more of some kind of a working group kind of longer term energetic so I don't know that it fits for necessarily what we're doing now. But maybe it does for an initial or there's I don't know somehow to have some kind of initial conversation, and then you know if the boards are on you know, on the same path to move forward with some some format that that we could do some work.

[85:00] With. Is that I think several the working groups you we had several working groups come out of that joint meeting that join me, it was the first meeting we had post lockdown, and so it was it was it was a little I was the first zoom meeting that we ever had. And I think, to a certain extent to, and it was it was a topic that we hadn't really wrestled with before and I think that you know there's. Not the same complimentary nature between the human relations board and and housing advisory is there, probably is between playing and housing, particularly on this on this. topic that we're talking about now, but really on. Most housing related matters, and so I, I think it could be really productive as a starting point for something I absolutely agree, you know we're not going to. resolve everything in a day, but I think it can be a really productive way to. At least kick things off and have some sort of clearing house and see you know where everybody's perspectives lie on it and the things that we could do so, I mean, I think you know i'd be pretty optimistic like I said.

[86:06] Great and that would have to be a public meeting correct. Really. i'm excited by the idea can we put it on the agenda for November is an item to discuss. More lengthen logistics and how to make it work and perhaps timing. Good. i'd like to wrap up this part of the Agenda unless there any other additional comments for now. We can move on, I also would like to welcome the pita and. Make sure you're introduced to the Jennifer lubavitch our newest board member they're excited to have her on board the pita montoya would planning board. And it also remind everyone about November 10 and the actual housing forum made the news papers this week I believe that's being held at a town hall.

[87:08] i'm sure you've all gotten the announcement and I hope you'll be able to attend that and we did have another public Member join us live seagull but our yes, the public comment period is overland i'm sorry that happened about six o'clock. Okay next agenda is really exciting because it's an opportunity to take action, some Members of this board have worked very hard on a. Mobile EDU language to propose to Council as a part of the EDU policy. I think we've all had a chance to review it but. i'm hoping we can have a discussion about it, and perhaps even vote on tonight as to whether we'd like to afford his recommendation.

[88:02] Would. remove it from the work plan which is going to be pretty robust around that middle missing middle topic and we invite shock to. For our new Member and also just to remind the rest of us to kind of review where this came from and. and what's what is the meat of it. Alright yeah i'll do a quick kind of summary. Jen kinda to let you know what's been going on with this and. Jay I did get your note today. And I will probably ask you to just give us a little bit of. Of kind of input on that as well Jennifer this was. This was something that's come up.

[89:02] For me, just as I look around and I build. people's at us also I don't only build massive homes, I do build smaller things as well and and so kind of in dealing with clients who are out there and their. budgets and what they can do. One thing that came up for me was, and it also arose out of our tiny home. Listening session. Which is. You know the concept of the tiny home which i've kind of read. term goal at you. is really viable for two groups of people as. an entry point into housing and one of the groups, people are Homeowners who. don't have the funds available. To build like you know, one of my clients just did 800 square foot at you, that was $200,000 plus and.

[90:06] A lot of the people I talked to WHO. are interested in doing stuff like this don't have that kind of money. And so. basically saying why have we excluded or why do we not include mobile units. As a US. Under our policy. Right now, with the saturation. limits that we have we're still not. Coming anywhere to. I think we're probably at. That. What is it J where it may be 10 to 15 or 10 to. 20% of the. capacity. At this point. and Listen it's less than that. I mean yeah yeah right, I mean. So we have a. very small sliver of at us. compared to what we put forth, which was a 20%.

[91:00] kind of goal, for you know at your numbers and I think one of the huge. limiting factors, there is just the cost to do these things. So the concept of including a mobile unit and we'll get into some numbers about this because Juliet asked a bunch of questions, the other day and I. managed to get some answers put together on this is just so much lower the bar for entry is so much lower that I think it would be viable, to say a homeowner can either put in a pad with utilities hookups. and bring in. Either someone who owns their own at you or their own mobile unit already or that homeowner could choose to buy a mobile unit themselves and create the pad and put them both together and then rent that out, so the.

[92:05] benefit there is really for this kind of middle income population, as I see it also who could really use some additional income to help them. manage their property and stay in it, instead of making the choice to leap older and add to our income you so that's the one side of it, the other side, and this is kind of something that we heard out of our listening session a little bit is there are people who own these units already. But really don't have anywhere to park them, they have anywhere to put them. And you know i've talked to a fair number of people who are like where can I put I want to get a tiny home, but I can't put it anywhere where can I put it, and i'm like well you can't actually put it anywhere right now. And so, this provides those people who, you know, for whatever their personal reasons are find value in owning their own home.

[93:03] Maybe it's because they are temporary workers, in a sense, they're going to be here for contract for whomever for two years and then they can take that and they can move it to the next. location where they're going to work, but it gives that kind of flexibility so that's that's what I put it out there. and There are a number of jurisdictions. That have already passed these kinds of ordinances to allow at us, as are billable units is a to use. The kind of structure of it is by now it's getting pretty well hammered out, in other words we're not recreating the wheel here, this is something that exists and the codes, the real challenge of it is or the perceived challenges marry. Foundation, based units which are under the international building code and mobile units which are under manufactured housing codes and regulation and.

[94:11] At the end of the day, it's not that hard to bring those two things together, there are few points that you know community has to decide on how they want to handle it but. it's not really a problem from the from the code perspective for the most part, so that's what I was proposing that we would. ask Council to. include mobile ad us. In the category of accessory dwelling units and then they would be accepted and allowed. Under that ordinance anywhere that an ad us allowed so anywhere in the city that an ad us and allowed unit, you could put one that doesn't have a fixed foundation, but has a mobile foundation. So. i'd like to ask you a few questions just for clarification if.

[95:04] i'm going to throw out a couple scenarios you tell me if this. plan. It would accommodate it or not, but before I do i'd like to know. um let's say i'm a home I own a home. And this comes to fruition, is there a minimum like a lot that my house has to be, you know that I have to own to. Number one participate in this and then. Number two what are these pads So what are we talking about are we talking about I can put a pad on my driveway and. Put have someone living in an rv there with hookups is. That under this plan, or are we talking about, I have to do it so far away from my house in my backyard, what does that look like. And then my next question to you would be is this that only a way for I mean debt, it is definitely way to get people.

[96:09] get some additional income, but I also see it killing multiple birds with one stone right, so I see, we have more more people being displaced you to Kobe and an increase of people living in there are fees and so i'm just just curious if this is. A, this is another way um I mean if this would be something helpful to people in that situation. Go remember on you, so can you hear me. yeah. yeah so. Do you think the general the general concept to your gym is that these would be pulled in at us, so they would.

[97:00] Unless we tweak it specifically for these mobile units and there are certain things that we're talking about I kitty. My kitty so well behaved and just sleeps on the pillow back there. They they are under all the regulatory structures for at us, so there are setback limits, there are front yard limitations that exists already. That are are fairly robust for these we may talk about adding a few you know conditions for skirting of the units there question marks about some regulatory structures for at us that maybe we don't feel are necessary, and I personally don't feel are necessary for mobile units. But so that that side of it, the kind of zoning issues, those are pretty well managed already under the existing at you regulatory structure, and so, if you could put one of these somewhere.

[98:06] You would be putting it where, if you had you know twice the dollars to spend you could put a fixed foundation in it right so it's similar in that way. I think there's a question that I still have about this, you know if we were to proceed with this, you know what do we as a board think is a viable square footage maximum for these because these do tend to be much smaller than your average at you. And so, you know how and then you know how big do we want them to get do we want it to look like a double wide in the backyard. or no, we want these to be really just kind of compact at us, so you know, there are those questions that would still have to get answered and we'd have to direct it and that's that piece the pads and what the pads look like.

[99:03] In general, what we're talking about for these pads are they just have to be according to the mobile home or the manufactured housing regulations. These have to be durable pads as they're called which means they can be concrete and you can pour a pad, but they can also be just compacted gravel pads as well, so, and then to those pads you would pull utilities water sewer and usually just the electric. To the to the pad so. that's kind of what it looks like from that side and that's one of the nice things about it, I did start to really kind of look at pricing on this stuff to Juliet to get to your some of your questions and. It was actually. seem to be more viable than I think I had initially anticipated, although.

[100:04] it'll be interesting to have a discussion with everybody here about that stuff did that answer for you Jen. I mean kind of sort of there's a lot of unknown still right a. packet or is there more is there, maybe. You know that yeah I mean. yeah and I think. i'd like to look at that then i'm sure I would have many more questions, but right now good. yeah yeah and i'll send that pack, and I think it was probably the last meeting Jay that we send that out of the meeting before. or just before the last meeting so you missed that one but yeah I can send that to you. And I. i'm Sorry, I want to cut you off. that's okay go ahead. Let me just let me just throw this some this out now let's say we have 100 and took let's just say hypothetically we have 100. Total homes that meet whatever property requirements.

[101:04] That. Could could add this type of ad you. i'm just trying to think of who we're targeting to move into that ad you like, who are we targeting are we targeting people that is it's going to be a new type of affordable housing is this going to I mean I guess that's what i'm getting at. Yahoo, is that going to benefit I understand it's going to benefit the home owner because it's. going to add additional income i'm just trying to that's what i'm trying to get at it. And what is that what capacity are we talking. yeah and so that was partially one of juliet's questions also the capacity piece of it and. That was a question that I had asked of you Jay because I don't I know that we've had this number thrown out to us so many times and I looked through my files and I didn't find it, but these are basically gym at us are allowed in.

[102:16] Most single family residential zones, at this point okay so that's a significant chunk of the city of boulder and Jay do you know about what that number is for total lots. and have to go back, but I mean it's thousands. it's probably between seven and. $10,000 right. But you know, and I think I mentioned this last time it's not particularly helpful. to figure out how many lots I mean the the bigger question is how many people are going to actually want to do this. Right right, not everyone wants to need to fix foundation in their backyard. The nice thing about the mobile is that they have a choice you know the next donor isn't stuck with a mobile ad you.

[103:06] it's the investment is so much less that they could you know they don't have to rent that pat out if future. Anyway, um. But I think Jen also has a really important question about consuming just park their rv back there and. yeah. yeah well yeah I think the brief answer that is is no you can't just park your rv, it has to be. A manufactured home that can be appropriately tied down. So you know, there are requirements, obviously, because of wind and everything else, and you have to be able to tie that down again, as we said it can't just be parked out in the front yard either So these are going to really live as do any other at you. They might be able to go into a side yard there, most likely in the rear yard.

[104:02] Of a home. Danny give me a second, I want to finish jen's other piece, which I think is is really important, because. Who are we targeting with this and. you're right the clear and easy side to see it's kind of like Oh, the homeowner who you know can only afford $50,000 or can only afford the cost of the pad. But, and this is anecdotal and I don't know that we have again I we got in this last time, a little bit I don't know that we have the data of of who, this is, but when I look at this as I said, I think that. I have. talked to an interesting range of people who have interest in this from Allen peak, for instance, who was at our our listening session. And you know spoke eloquently about being of that and coming back, and you know building which you couldn't do under these regulatory structures, you can't just build your own, by the way.

[105:10] So, because it has to be built, under the manufacturer and regs and that requires somebody who's licensed to build them. So, but it, you know it has that aspect of somebody who is you know and as Alan said he was kind of like. on the verge of homelessness and he said, I will i've got one I built it with my dad and I parked it somewhere, but it's not legal to be parked there so i'm kind of at the whim of a property owner who will allow me to put it there. The other piece for sure is, I think it attracts whoever else is attracted into an ad you and and that population, I mean, in other words it's the same population, to a large degree that we're targeting as all at any at us. And the interesting discussions i've had are.

[106:01] A couple who. would love to put one on their parents property their parents have a big lot they'd love to put one there. And then they can care for their parents they're happy to live in this small unit and they're like that would be that would be great if we could do this and and we don't have to worry about putting my parents at risk because we're not meeting the codes. I you know anecdotally again, but I have another friend who's 66 years old, and he actually is like I want to transition into living into a small tiny home. And that's I want to simplify it all the way down, you know so i've gotten abroad, and I think I think for students, you know. Or you know I can see anybody really who would be interested in a smaller accessory dwelling type unit will argue be interested in this and then additionally On top of that demographic you do have the demographic of.

[107:05] People who are looking at a more mobile lifestyle, which we don't know what that's really going to look like at this point in time, but. You know if we listen to what's going on in the job markets, and if we pay attention to kind of the millennials and their discussions about what type of life's they're looking at and moving. I can't see that we're not that there's not a market there for that, I mean if we and I didn't pull the numbers Juliet I shouldn't have on sales. of tiny homes, but I do know that when I looked at tiny homes, a year and a half or two years ago, I was digging around to find manufacturers of tiny homes, and when I look now. it's just everywhere and every kind of option, so you know, I think that yeah it's an uncertain answer Jen I don't know that we know exactly who and exactly how many, but the point is.

[108:03] We aren't getting anywhere close to the saturation levels that we'd like to see for at us and I do believe that this is a piece that I feel would probably double that number. And my last i'm sorry. No, I was just say we'll talk about that, when we get to the cost of these things I think that'll start to make more sense to yeah. Why don't we take another question from Jenny do you have one before we get to Danny. yeah no I just you know, this is a little forward thinking, but am if that were to move forward, do you feel like that would be one step closer to not bringing tiny homes that would not require foundations of any kind at all. um I don't think so because the the regulatory structure for those things, and the potential climatic hazards that we have here for just from a health and safety perspective, I think that you know, and we have to be careful when we talk about foundations.

[109:04] Because the Foundation is a pad and then any number of engineer manners are engineered ways to tie that. That unit down so that it's not at risk and the neighbors houses and at risk for a tiny home blowing over and crashing enjoy so I don't know if it would go into that place like looking you know, like just tiny homes popping in and out. sort of thing. You know I think it's I think it's it's more regulated than that I don't think it frees things up that much to get to that level. But it does, maybe open up the discussion about tiny home villages and other things that might have specific utility also like a lot. that's kind of where I was headed all right, I appreciate your time and i'll stop dominating the conversation, thank you.

[110:00] Sorry ketchup time it's ketchup time Danny. I just wanted a couple of what you were talking about jock because this whole concept really came from that listen session and absolutely I think I think his name was Adam right. Alan right um it was it was that was very, very compelling test, one that he gave us some other people, but some of the other testimony there we had two. tiny home manufacturers who both said the by far predominant model that they built where mobile tiny homes, so that was one of the things, and that was really gratifying to us so that you know they're not building a lot of. Fear fixed tiny homes are building mobile tiny homes that's really the direction, things are going. And there was a lot of lot of testimony from people who had tiny homes, who are familiar with tiny homes, etc, talking about the fact that a mobile tiny home. provide some level of empowerment inclusion and ownership.

[111:04] For the person who has at home, so, in other words, as opposed to regular EDU where you know I have my house I build an EDU somehow I come up with $200,000 or whatever it is. To build it and then that's mine somebody just comes in, they come out, you know, depending on when I want to rent it etc tiny home, you know they had they become a stakeholder as well, and that was one of the one of the. Key thrust of the testimony that we had the listen session that to me um it was completely a learning experience, because I had no idea until that day that mobile was. there's as much passion behind the notion of mobile tiny homes, as there was, and that was really one of the main thrust of that listen session so. One of the reasons why i'm really supportive and appreciative of what you've done is because it really seems to me that it directly reflects not just what we think. But what we, the information we received from both you know the people, the professionals who are building these things, the people who are living this life in terms of.

[112:09] Where we could probably make some accommodation that would really help address the needs of the people who took the time to participate in that listen session, and so, from that point. there's a direct nexus between that listen session and the information that we obtained there. And where we are right now and and that's just the point that I want to make so in terms of who's going to be in there. I think it's going to be the people who are who came to the listen session I think it's going to be the people who are. involved in this lifestyle and from you know the direct testimony of even the manufacturers that's that's where the demand is, and so, if we do something that kind of reflects that I think that's a great tie together of all these efforts that we've been making. Thanks Danny. i'd like to address the the who's it for question, briefly, I have an EDU going into my fifth year on that, and you know really it's it's it's the same audience.

[113:09] we've had four different tenants they're always you know people either in school or entry level jobs, who. told us, you know we wouldn't be living in boulder when your man work for department and see you with 18 employees, he was the only one living in boulder. So, even though we're charging market rate it's affordable and attainable for folks not making tremendous amount of money teachers young administrators. nursing students and so forth, and that's veto, this would would serve I mean it could be anybody could be jocks 66 year old friend who was downsizing, but there are folks that really probably would not have another housing terrace in boulder and. are willing to live, you know, in a smaller place, in addition, I can tell you as an EDU person that are it's affected our property taxes.

[114:09] in a negative way and I think that the impact would be less if you just had a pad as opposed to a structure and that could be another benefit, and again in my view. If this were to work and it provided 50 homes that's 50 people it's doesn't solve the problem of affordability at a level. folder but it contributes and you need to have a lot of different small solutions to come up with the the big picture solution in this could this could be an effective what everyone, which is why we're taking a hard look at it. Like Michael of. I guess at this point, unless there's any other direct questions, I want to get to juliet's questions because she sent me. And I think that they'll be really helpful to kind of walk through these and review them. To answer kind of a next level of.

[115:04] inquiry into this. And Juliet i'm just going to start at the top of these and and go through to give you a kind of my. My responses to them so i'll go ahead and read each question so everybody can hear did you send these to everybody, or just to meet Juliet I didn't notice. I copy the board, but I don't know if that didn't anyone get it. got it I copied you Jay and then I I have copied the housing advisory group for our board group. Okay well i'll go ahead and read the questions that. Because that'll. But I, but I do want to know if that emails working because. I sent it, but then I didn't get it, and I was expecting that I would get it if i'm on that group and I did ask everyone to not reply to all so that we don't violate any sunshine laws. I go yeah. I. did anyone else got it. Julia it did go to housing advisory board group I also received a copy Jay did so, it looks like everyone should have received it, hopefully it's not in your spam if you did not get.

[116:09] Your advice. i'm gonna have to look for it because I don't see it in my gmail but i'll take my spam. That, I look forward to hearing what your questions were. yeah Jay I have one quick question or corey, is it possible for me to screen share at a point or two here. Absolutely okay. I don't need to right away, but unless you think it's worth. Being able to see this, while I read it. So just do that so everybody can see, and let me just read it so juliet's first question was. Around she says it's my understanding that mobile homes not qualify for traditional mortgages and are generally viewed as depreciating assets, compared with fixed foundation homes. which are generally viewed as appreciating assets and then the question is, how would these dynamics impact affordability and long term viability of mobile at us as a housing solution boulder.

[117:11] I think. I have a question back for you on that, but i'll start in on the appreciating versus depreciating asset and. it's true that mobile home is I did some research into that and it's true that it's difficult to get a traditional mortgage for a mobile home if not close to impossible. The other thing is that I found that there's not much tracking of the values of mobile homes that in the past but recently on a federal level, there has been some tracking of mobile home values in comparison to fix foundation homes. Which is interesting and the other piece that I really want to clarify, because I think it's, we have to be a little careful how we talked about appreciating the assets and depreciating assets and.

[118:03] And you know are concerned with that aspect of these, although, yes, you would consider a mobile home to be a depreciating asset. Interestingly, if you're a homeowner you could also do appreciate that on your taxes so there's a benefit there I come from a tax perspective. But really even a single family home fixed foundation, the whole structure itself is also a depreciating asset. it's the land that's not a depreciating asset and so you're right there's a separation here because, generally, you know you're taking a depreciating asset and you're sending it on an appreciating asset which is the land, and so, and I think this was also one of terry's concerns he thought. He was like well you know. you're not maintaining value of that thing over time you're losing value of it.

[119:00] So if that's the concern about appreciation depreciation depreciation, I think, yes, it does depreciate I don't. I think that the real impact on affordability that you're asking about Juliet comes down simply to that lower bar of entry. For someone to be able to engage in this process from either side, either somebody bringing their own mobile unit and putting it on somebody's pad or somebody putting a pad and a unit in there in on their property. The the question of long term viability, I had a little question mark there but i'm assuming you're wondering about the. kind of the the lifespan of that unit. Is that correct. The lifespan and also. If you if if we're selling to people, the idea that they can own a mobile EDU and therefore it's a real and appreciating real estate asset, like other kinds of appreciating real estate asset when it's in fact it's not are we selling them something that's not what they think it is.

[120:16] Long term. Right, well, I suppose long term. From that perspective. I don't think that we'd be trying to suggest to anybody, that this is an appreciating asset right, in other words it's clear that a mobile home is a depreciating asset, the unit itself, and I would probably even argue that the pad itself is not going to. Add great value to a property, in other words, no. No evaluation of your home is going to tack on an extra 20 K, because you have a pad that right, so I don't think that we're and I think this is the the point that I was trying to make last time, also, that I think the lens that we put on it.

[121:06] has to shift a little bit from the traditional concept of. Of the benefit that is being gained for people and, and so one of the things that I wanted to kind of look at, and it also ties to this appreciating asset thing is, you know what is the value of that mobile unit. After five years right just as a unit, something that you could sell or not, and this is what I wanted to show you this because I found this to be fascinating and I can I do a share screen Cory. How do I do that. The green button, in the middle. So I can just pick it there, it is okay. So I don't know if you guys can see this i'm. Sorry, I was on yes, yes, you got it.

[122:02] Okay, this um so this graph you can see the blue line is a traditional fixed foundation non manufactured, so to speak, and the orange line is the manufacturer, you can see that. it's definitely more volatile and it dropped more when it dropped. And yet it pretty much parallels what the market does. You know, for fixed foundation homes so it's not that it's not that different as far as you know, saying well if I buy this unit i'm going to get some appreciation out of it, and now I gotta figure out how to back out of my shared screen there this. you're going to get. you're going to get some. Change in value over time I don't think it will be an appreciation, although you can't really be certain of that either.

[123:04] Because there's demand for these things you know, in the short term anyway here has been increasing you know the value of them may hold pretty well they might be more like my Toyota so that's just a. Speculative question I think anybody who gets into this Juliet is engaging somewhat net speculative question, but the real point here is, and this comes in the final part of my answer is and, by the way, that graph was from the Federal housing financing agency. So the real impact here is the cost of one of these structures and I went online and looked at buying them just off the shelf ready to go obviously not including the pad is at about 50% of what it would cost me to build somebody a place here. An EDU in their backyard and around I saw anywhere from low hundreds to 300 but the average being right around 200 bucks a square foot.

[124:08] The added cost and Juliet I think this is. Now jumping into your second question, the added cost for the pad. ppl repeat that repeat the question everyone. Because yeah i'm about to do that What would it cost the owner to para mobile ad you pad on their home. Including permitting and situated city services such as water and sewer as well as other utilities, so I broke that out i'll just go ahead and use that handy screen share button again so you can just look at these numbers as I read them off here. So. The city fees what I did was I actually took just to let you know what I did here and get to these numbers, I took a recent at you that I had permitted and I looked at the permitting fees and some of those fees that were rolled up in the permit.

[125:08] And that permit the total costs were somewhere, it was just shy of $10,000 is 9700 I believe. For the permanent costs for an 800 square foot at you that we put in someone's backyard So when I looked at that, and then I compared I took out all the line items Juliet that would apply to a fixed foundation and. This is a little bit of my assumption, but these are basically. The cost was about 35% and let me look here I got I ended up with $3,750 for the permitting costs. For one of these, and that includes the plant investment fees so you're adding a kitchen a bathroom so you're paying plant investment fees for water and sewer.

[126:07] you're paying for certain inspections that you'd be paying for the regular at you as well. And so I kind of just did that breakdown and we ended up I ended up at about a third of the cost so there's a decrease in the cost burden on the fee, and which is fairly significant. And then, again, depending on the type of pad these costs that i'm about to show you here, they can vary significantly, but you know 2510 concrete pad. You know even that are inflated costs now. will cost about $2,000. If you hired a contractor to come in and do it, so if I hired one of my subs if I said hey come in here for me 20 bucks. And pad that would cost about 2000 bucks. I made some assumptions on the distance from the House of 40 feet so waterline might cost you 1200 bucks to get in the electric could be anywhere from 1000 to 2000 depending on what has to happen on the panel inside your House right so that's kind of a pretty broad range there.

[127:19] It could potentially be more than that, but that would be kind of unexpected. The electric was one to two, then the sewer you know you're basically. running a trench for that and connecting it that's probably an $800. Cost I just connected the at you that we built to the House and that's about what it costs us to run actually about 50 feet of line there, so not that much. The city fees like I said we're 3750 so the total for a pad, and this is a concrete pad is maybe eight nine K so let's say it's 10 K I just kind of rounded it out and let's say let's say that's about 10,000 bucks.

[128:06] So for 10,000 bucks you could have a rentable pad and. Then, of course, this leads nicely into your next question. Which is. nj I don't know if you have any. You know comments on my 35% for the city fees I don't know how. You know in tune, you are with what those those fees are but. I think it was a pretty good estimate of what what would be laughed when you take this thing out of being a foundation built structure. So. Looking at what could be charged for rent you know, this is a little bit more challenging Juliet because you know it is a specific unit and it's very small.

[129:02] But just knowing that a bedroom in town cost you at least 1000 bucks these days. You know if you're renting a house somewhere. I pulled this because the square footage was very similar to what you might get in one of these smaller at us 238 square feet. yeah this is on 15th street, but you can see that they're looking for about just shy of 1415 1500 for that. You know, this is obviously probably directed towards students with the higher number than what you might get, but I think that you could. A homeowner could easily consider an $802,000 rent for a unit of about this size, like a 10 by 20 ish unit. And you know part of that just got that part of it was kind of I didn't see anything for rant there was a standalone in any way, shape or form that was.

[130:08] Less than 1200 dollars. anywhere in the city so, for you know I think that's I think that's reasonable, and I think you could you could expect to get that I know that my my 66 year old friend would be very happy to pay that. So you know that's that's what I think is achievable for a monthly if you put one of these in. that's just for the pad. For renting this. No, no, no, I know this is for renting the full unit if you're renting the pad I did some research into the pads and the pads are probably. I would say, you can rent the pad if somebody had their own thing what I was seeing, and this was coming out of California these numbers but I don't think they'd be that much difference was anywhere between 300 and $450 they were renting the pads.

[131:07] Access to a pad. out that was more my question. So okay. Investment yeah. In the I was thinking that I posed, though, was more around offering pads for people to put their own a mobile ad us not. People putting you know Homeowners buying. at us and premium and I saw that's one of your next you own your questions down the line, so I saw that because it is, it is both of those things actually do, and it provides that flexibility. So the pad I think you could rent for, as I said, let's say $300 a month, I think, is a it's a pretty easy number, and you know so on a $10,000. Investments again it's. it's was that less than a five year. Roi until you get to a point where you're just bringing that in his income.

[132:04] And then, on the other side if you put a unit there yourself. And I looked at units and again looking at this basic square footage and I found you and it's kind of a. Mid range price with a Pam you get a unit for about 32 K was one of the bid rank prices, I saw now there are more expensive ones that are being sold that are all you know. fancied out in certain ways and there are less expensive ones, but again, that was about the average for something around the low 200 square foot mark that I saw and. So I put that price in with the $10,000 for the pageant yet to look at kind of what that looks like so let's say you're in 42 K or or so on that. To pay that off over five years you're looking at needing to bring in $700 a month makes that a five year Roi again, which is kind of what I stopped to look at I said okay.

[133:04] You know how does this look over five years, if I was to do this, you know and argue without saying that the other thing I did was I said well what What if I put this into a 6% return on investment over those same number of years. You know, and how much income would I generate out of that which is the tune of something like 15 K I think i'm, although I did get really fancy about how I was compounding etc, etc, so you know from the Roi perspective and what it can rent for I think that again an $802,000. is fairly affordable for somebody who's looking for a place to live in town, whether it be a single person or a couple. Because I do know quite a few couples who live in these already in the House and up in the mountains, for the most part, because they're sneaking around but.

[134:01] I think it makes sense, actually, you know the the numbers to put this in if you can pay this off in five years and then have that income monthly it's fairly significant. After paying down the investment. Any other questions on kind of those ones. The next question was on the winter ization of a mobile at you and i'll send this out to you this document I you know kind of just finished putting it together this morning but. So all of the codes Juliet that. that are required to be matt are part of the manufacturing housing regulatory structure and there are requirements. This they start at the federal level than their State requirements as well, so there's kind of tears of things, but when you go into manufactured housing requirements.

[135:04] In the code of federal regs it's endless I mean it's it was page after page after page every detail installation values that are required now those installation values. are not the same installation values that we require for larger units. But I think the argument here is you're putting so many fewer square feet underneath the person's body that you're being environmentally sound. Even with a slightly lesser our value in your wall so that actually the dollar value of the walls is about the same as what we required the ceilings that are a little bit less than these things. So you know there's a little bit of a given take there as far as the energy rags but you know my argument would be, but the benefit of just having a small footprint for somebody. is really significant so.

[136:03] There are there's no really getting around the regulatory structure, in other words, either the city's requirements or the manufactured housing requirements are fairly stringent. In in these cases so you're having to meet those requirements, one way or the other fixed foundation or mobile foundation, you have to you still have to meet quite a litany of requirements there. You have further questions on that one. Does that answer that kind of I mean it's there's so many points here that we get it's not just winter ization is what i'm getting at it's really heating systems it's appliance systems it's eat grass there's all kinds of pieces that we were looking at. Well, and the reason I just want to remind because jen's new to the sport, the reason.

[137:01] I asked all these questions, Jan and everyone else is not to satisfy my own curiosity, but because I anticipate. Getting asked these kinds of questions if this ordinance were presented to others, and if we can poke all as many holes as possible in this thing and provide some detailed analysis and even spreadsheet out what returns would look like and what costs. would look like for potential renters so that we have a case build a case study for it, then I think it will increase the likelihood of it being well received and listened to so that's really where my questions come from is. To make sure that we are if it's put forth that it's well thought out and we've anticipated all the possible questions that. Including the unintended consequences of doing a passing something like this, so.

[138:00] yeah and I, you know I actually Jim just. To I appreciated these questions, because that is what I was looking for when I requested this of you guys was like what are the things that are going to come and hit me. Because I can't think everything, and I have my own biases anyway going into it, so I you know I appreciate that you gave me this list. it's great um The next question was that how many locks in boulder and you know as Jay said we're probably somewhere between seven to 10,000 lots we could put them. You know I don't think that we're saying you know, there are saturation limits on some of those neighborhoods and some of those zoning districts and not on others, and so what number that is honestly I don't know, but I do feel like. You know I do feel like it is enough to it's enough to make an impact and as someone else said earlier tonight you know these are little slices of the pie.

[139:03] we're not going to hit it all with one fell swoop kind of our discussion around middle income, housing, you know just shows the complexity of trying to find any you know bigger bullet, so to speak, then, then the smaller ones. But. I could you know I think the number thrown out earlier, was 50. Maybe that was by Michael, I think, but I could definitely see I mean. I know 10 people who directly approached me about this just on the side which is you know part of why it bubbled up. And my gut feeling is that when you get to this price point where you're saying hey you can actually get a door affordable housing, even though it's not hitting you know our family need it's kind of one of our maybe less critical needs. As far as types of units and I get that but I think that we could we could start to see some people and get some traction because what i'm talking to people what i'm hearing is.

[140:08] Can I put an ad you in, and then I give them a sense of what the cost is going to be and the timeframe is going to be also and a lot of people are just you know they're just like I know that I just can't do that it's not even that they wouldn't do it from a numbers perspective, I think. Because you do get that big boost and property value if it's a fixed foundation, so that is the benefit of fixed foundation you definitely get it. But but it's just too high, of a bar and I think a lot of our middle income neighborhoods that's the problem it's just too high, bar to get into an EDU. So. Thank you jack and Jerry i'm sorry I didn't see your questions earlier excellent, by the way, i've been listening intently just off to the side stretching a little.

[141:00] It is 820 and i'm going to suggest a couple of things, one is that we move on, but not before making the following requests and comments. I would still like to put forth the goal of packing on this before the end of the year so it's not part of the 2020 work plan and so that we can either achieve a recommendation or voted down and move on the question is. Given these. Issues that Juliet is raised. How would you look at revising you know our draft and, by the way, Jennifer there is a good draft of the ordinance as well as a sample ordinance for another city that is September packet. So that's probably a question too shocking, the second follow up would be. What kind of help do you need to get that done assuming we're going to do some rewriting before getting to the point where it's ready to vote on.

[142:06] Well, I think that um. I think, as I said, I think the general structure of this is in pretty good shape, when we consider what's being done elsewhere, I think, and especially we didn't get to juliet's last couple questions here but. number five we kind of hit on which is how would it impact the housing supply. The other question I just want to briefly touch on it was really for Jay a lot of it was I asked him like How does this impact staff, and I think that there will be some enforcement issues. But the last one which I really liked in also was thinking into the release conditions and this gets back Michael, the reason I wanted to mention that. is like what does the least look like, how do you move one of these things off if your tenant doesn't do what you want to do, or you know you break ELISE.

[143:01] And I think that's a really important kind of hold a poke in the bag, so that was a good one, to look at and. Michael, I think, to move forward on this if we let's say voted tonight say okay let's go ahead and push this and try to actually get something put together early that we could vote on and say let's send this as a recommendation to Council then. I think I would need someone else from the board to work with me to kind of answer those questions, and you know patch the holes that get poked in the balloon. so that we do put something as Juliet says together that's comprehensive and cohesive and. You know, has the best chance of have a low level of effort for Council, which is one of my answer to your question, too, I think, the better we do, obviously, the less effort, there would be from counseling side if we gave it to them.

[144:03] So I think I would ask for someone and I actually have somebody in mind. Not to be exclusive i'll take any help I can get but partially because of the legal aspect of it, I did think about. Asking Danny if you could help me. With some of this. You know, and if any other Members had input on particular aspects of it that they thought they could help with you know, maybe we can kind of divvy it up and break it up a little bit. But it's not i'll do it all. I will. rip the best result will say, and again. i'd be more than happy to help out, I think a lot of these questions are you ready answer pretty well and we can delve into it a little bit more detail, I think. You know, just to clarify for everybody slip and I had a bunch of comments, if you remember shaka I laid them all out there, the last.

[145:03] yeah the last meeting that we had, and so I still have those but those are really just kind of formulated, but what shocked really put together was. an outline of the fundamental concepts here because I think Jay made the point that you know, obviously staffs going to be the one. that have to be drafted in the yard and and so we're not sending up a draft ordinance or anything which would be much more daunting task but we're doing the same here's an outline how he's think this could work here's some of the the. You know some of the the fundamental. aspects of what we might anticipate having to deal with, as we move forward with this, but we've already kind of bet i'm really impressed I mean some of the. statistics and the information that you were able to pull together for those for those questions is great and that's that's exactly the kind of stuff that we need to. You know suasion any concerns that are there and and I think that you know. One of the things that I think would be really helpful for all of us is if we decide to move forward today, decide to move forward next month, you know more, formally, whatever it may be.

[146:03] Just the whole mantra on this, because you know the whole notion is you know i'm stressing for Council and for it for anybody else or we're talking about is this is something that can be. done by the homeowner at a less expensive rate, but this is also something where you know we're not you know my concerns were saying we're trying to sell people on the notion of buying these. What seemed clear to me is that a lot of people are buying them and a lot of them are being made so it's a question of providing some sort of. place or accommodation, where they can go and that's the other part of this, too, that I think we need to kind of focus on as we move forward and and. So I think a vote in November, would be great because I love to have you here too, because I know he's you know, been real involved with this for a while and I know he also. expressed some concerns before, but I think we can kind of sharpen it up to the point where we're going to say here's our proposed outline. And we'd like to work with staff to put something together, you know functionally that works, and you know the having that um I think it was Los Angeles turn remember now.

[147:06] yeah. set a rags already in place that really show how this can work and how it could work in a pretty significant community. I think it's just it's just great so yeah I think we're well on our way but i'm glad to you know provide whatever health, we can meet in person hearing and try to work through some of these things, but you know i'm i'm in i'm all in so. So, Michael. What would be our next step here do we need to make a vote tonight to say yes we're going to proceed with this. Or do we just is it just a straw poll vote and then I bring it back to you, you know at the next meeting, or the one after whichever I can pull off. i'd recommend a straw poll on the intent to complete a recommendation and vote on it before the end of.

[148:04] I don't think we've heard objections to proceeding we've heard some question about logic and phrasing and analysis. I do have a little concerned about the analysis part, much as I appreciate Julia suggestions and it just sounds like a sounds like a month long consultant project to. answer all those questions so if there's some way to streamline that to the important points that can be handled by a volunteer crew, I think that would be important as well, so. straw poll, what do you think first of all, do you think that's a good idea. it's just a boat. I think we could just have a vote, to put it on the agenda for November, if we need to continue it to December I don't know that we necessarily. I don't know we're not sure about the December meeting, but if we just say. let's vote to have a formal vote on this in November so for all our board members, they know that you know there's going to be an actual.

[149:05] vote, you know that would like everybody to attend and everybody can anticipate that that's going to be the day that we're going to make the decision. And then, for the public as well for the Council as well, that would be a good way procedurally to go forward and then you know if we feel any more time in November, we can always continue it so. Well, that idea Jay you had a comment. yeah I mean my suggestion you guys voted on this last month and you agreed to move forward. So my mind I think what will be most helpful to counsel, is a very short concise White Paper, maybe two pages, or maybe three that says. This what the story is right, so we talked about it, we reiterate a lot of the story for Jen Jen tonight, where it came from the listening session why it's important who it was serve.

[150:01] why we think it's important. And that, basically, is your sort of. piece that you share with Council so that they decided to take it up and and say and direct staff to incorporate it as part of the next update to add ordinance. So my goal is still to go to Council next year, I know I said that last year. But I think next year we we should do it, and I think this is a good reason to. actually follow through on that, so I think if you had something a little more concise. Something more direct that sort of doesn't lay out what the what everything would be in that ordinance but makes the case, the policy case for what why it's important I think would be important to do and and then you could vote on that and whether or not to share that. With Council I don't know, I think.

[151:01] I like it. I think that sounds good. And I guess Jay I want to speak with you, what a juliet's concerns also just like we haven't done this, where we're kind of you know how much is it up to staff to craft this ordinance or we like what's that Alec group that basically writes all the the legislation on the national level. And then they just pimp it out to the to the legislators. So i'll talk to you about that, though, to get a sense of that also because that's that is a piece of concern so. What do we just say. Good. I was just gonna say, are we just saying, then that all go ahead and work on putting that White Paper together. And for next meeting, then, and then we'll vote on that and i'll probably send it out to everybody prior to next meeting to get feedback on it.

[152:03] And i'm happy to help you do. So, and just everyone keep in mind too we can't just you know say hey go do this, there has to be a public process right so. We have public meetings. We have to have a draft discussion that we share and so that people can understand what's being proposed, and you know changes will get made so it'll be a legislative process it's going to take you know, six months, probably. But I think that's the case we're trying to make is that, yes, this is important. it's not going to solve all the problems, but it's something concrete that we can work on in the next year. Great does tie into your. discussion about the letter to counsel is what. Right we're gonna get there in a moment just point out that I believe we're moving up our November meeting, and we can dominate thanksgiving.

[153:01] schedule, so the time frame is going to be a little short to turn this around I personally be very happy to reach a resolution in November or December, whatever works, but again, if we can get this. Moving. Before the end of 2021 That would be a real accomplishment. And don't think we need to vote on that I think we're just kind of agreeing that's what we want to do. i'd like to move on, unless there's a objection to letter to counsel. Okay we've gotten I did draft a letter. Juliet gets a gold star for sending really great markup of that letter, however, the conditions have changed a bit I think you've all gotten a copy of the. directions from Council in preparation of their retreat in January, and they are looking really for one item to add to their 2022 23 two year work plan.

[154:08] And a fairly short letter. I think that means that what we've got is. pretty well in line with that at least in terms of intent, because we, as a as a hab board have decided to focus on a particular issue and that Council to grapple with. I don't think the letter is ready to to vote on to before the Council because it's going to need some more editing but again I think that's something we could easily get on the agenda for November and. You know i'm i'm a draft for that one, so I can get another version out for comment. Certainly, taking comments i've heard tonight and juliet's comments to heart and we will be on time to deliver the letter by December 15 so How does that sound for a plan.

[155:08] I was unclear do they even need the letter or do they just want us to state. Simply, this is our to me that's how I read it like you don't even need a letter you just here's what we would like you to add to your work plan, thank you very much, love have. Like. That makes. me pretty then. It says send your suggestion is correct. I did clarify with Taylor who wrote the email. it's not that they won't accept a letter and I see the value of I mean you've already drafted it. to share sort of have complements for the past year, I think I think it's helpful, I think the really just the big changes, you need to pick one. You can have two, three, you can only have one, so I don't think it hurts down the letter, and I think it helps date I think they'll appreciate having an update from what what this group's been doing.

[156:12] Okay, well, I like voting and I like letters. So what about. The data to a page. send it around again and we can do a quick vote on it next time go the way to another Council. Yes. All right. Okay. motion to do that. We even need that. I don't know. I say no. I. OK, I guess, we have emotion. Quick vote on that strategy to review a copy of a short letter to counsel. Before next meeting and the intend to vote on it next being and sending out the Council.

[157:04] and be done with it all in favor say Aye I guess I need a second i'm sorry. I get. There we go Thank you oh and paper say i'm getting tired. I. fast. You guys rock. Okay. let's see go back to that agenda. wow okay matters from staff. As Item number seven. yep so just one thing I kind of alluded to this earlier, the East boulder subcommittee plan there's a draft out and staff would like to come back to have at the November meeting share their findings and what they've heard from the Community. And sort of get your input on the plan has it it's, so I think that'll be the main event i'm guessing it will be about an hour, maybe a little less fence.

[158:04] So hopefully that will give you enough time to sort through everything else but that's all I have for you, unless you have questions for me or anything you want me to prepare for the next meeting. Will you be presenting angie. I will not know I I know you love hearing me present, but it will be gene data and perhaps Kathleen King will be back to him. Drastic. Great any questions for Jay. Great item a debrief meeting and calendar check. I think we had a productive meeting agreed on several things we'd like to vote on, next time, as well as. At least the outline of our agenda to review the Easter apo plan, in its latest incarnation, to review, not a draft honor ordinance but a White Paper on mobile ad us with the intent to vote on boarding that accountable and to review of final draft of the brief letter to counsel.

[159:18] Any other thoughts on the meeting debrief. And those agenda items before we go to the calendar tech. Okay, did we decide on a date for our November and December meetings guess that's a question for Jay. Yes, they're both removed up a week. Great. So first 17th I believe. talent right. yep Okay, none of my calendar, yet, but it will be. For December, I believe that would be the 15th, which is the same as the deadline for the.

[160:07] letter to Council. And you should have those meetings in your calendars corey sent those out. haven't got into my work calendar, yet, but. I will. Have any other thoughts on item, a meeting debrief and calendar check. Do I have a motion to adjourn. whoo. Okay. Well, welcome Jen lubitsch great to have you on board, thank you all for productive meeting and let's vote on that motion to adjourn. Oh baby. Well surpassed all of a sudden everybody have a great night. Okay, thanks. Everyone thanks thanks corey. Thanks.

[161:00] Thanks everyone. Thanks.