September 22, 2021 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:01] Yes, it is that's the one Terry I was just walking Terry to that if you go to the website and the big brown area, it says access. board materials and agendas it'll redirect you to the city's repository and then you click the folder that says September and it'll pull up the packet for tonight. huh. Good evening, if you want me to just send you the link. Would that be easier, that would be easy because. that's not what i'm looking. at it, let me send that to you now. Meanwhile we'll do the call to order I call this meeting to order of that folder housing Advisory Board and we'll do a little attendance here Terry Ramos. Julian. here. Juliet boom. yeah. Peter montoya. Peter before.

[1:01] had to go pick up her daughter and we'll be back. Okay, you. Know Danny. Danny is down here Jay signet I see here. And we have a guest will be introducing shortly. Let me just pull up that. review. Here we go. here's Danny. Danny. Call. As President.

[2:05] you're muted. Okay, great everybody. So agenda review. will be reviewing Minutes will take public participation, then we have a title for item five is matters from the board, which will start with a. Special presentation from Christopher told me he is the Executive Director of urban land in suits to filter housing Center a colleague of mine, and I think he's going to give us some great information and we'll continue our mobile ad users. With a reviewing a proposal fermenting in this book bold to permit movable at us. were reviewed the lead to cancel that I drafted about a week ago, and I am six is managed some staff. will discuss November, December schedules, will have a debrief meeting a counter attack and we'll try to intern by nine.

[3:06] So do I have a motion to approve the Minutes from August 25. Almost. Second. Second. All in favor. Aye I. Right. Okay. Any public who would like to come in. For the public participation period. do not have any members of the public, President. Okay. Great great, but we can move on. Christopher, as I mentioned prolly the religious Center at you ally has been around for I think at least 15 years and is a think tank to research and spread the word.

[4:00] To professionally it's primarily on best practices and affordable housing they do a great job it's a non partisan undertaking, as you will, is also and lobbying educational research. station, and I think he is familiar with a lot of communities have similarities to boulder and the some of our issues like the high land costs so. I thank Chris for being here i'm going to turn it over to him and he's going to make a brief presentation and be available to answer questions, so thank you again, Christopher take it away. Thank you, Michael it's it's good to be with you and happy to share a few thoughts, particularly around land costs, I think that that's one of the main drivers that you're you're seeing of. The housing kind of a team ability and affordability challenges that you're seeing there we put a lot of focus on that a couple of quick words about the developer Center as Michael said, we are the housing content Center for you ally, we focus on broadly and best practices.

[5:06] In housing development and related public policies we do focus a lot on affordability attain ability and housing production. And we work a lot directly with local jurisdictions and our local you alliance members and district councils to overcome some of the barriers to production enable more attain ability and affordability. So again, happy to talk about a couple of a couple of aspects of the land question with you. And I don't know what the exact number is there in the boulder and I will say it's a I love the boulder area I got to spend a fair amount of time there when my when my wife is living lewisville and don't travel there as much as I used to but. What a great place but certainly the housing affordability challenges, there are substantial. A lot of what we focus on is middle income housing development, the missing middle as it sometime called whether you're talking about the technology or the.

[6:07] Income band or the folks are using it, so I think that's a substantial challenging growing challenge that you're facing there. And I think there are some things around when you say it can be done. To address that I there also I think entitlements are another major driver the entitlement processes, the length of time and the cost undertaking that is another way to. To address some of those costs, and I think you know, the harder side is looking at the material and Labor costs there's such cost drivers, right now, a lot harder thing to influence on the way inside, though I think a couple of things, first of all. You know cost of housing development is directly related and the cost of waiting is directly related to the amount of land that's available for housing development. And so, if you can increase land availability or increase the density of housing, that you can put on land that.

[7:00] That may be available, you can start to address that having so you can do that with eliminating exclusionary zoning requirements certainly single family zoning is one thing that gets talked about a lot. But there are other things you know caps on building high minimum lot sizes parking war crime rates there, there are a number of other kinds of issues that ultimately. prevent housing from being built everywhere that it might be, and so, looking at those opportunities. To eliminate those requirements and lots of cities are trying to find ways around this obviously on the single family side minneapolis is. Who, we hear the most about, but the whole state of Oregon has done a lot around eliminating single families owning the state and and so that's a fairly kind of common aspect of the challenge that cities we're looking at now. And of course it's not it's not just having the land available I think it's important to think about, particularly now when we may have some infrastructure investment coming forward thinking about where. The land is that's available for housing and make sure that it's in proximity to infrastructure that you're not adding a bunch of additional development costs, the cost of housing, the land itself.

[8:08] So that's that's kind of the first aspect is just increasing weighted availability of the density, that you can build on that land. by getting rid of exclusionary kinds of requirements, but I think the second piece is finding ways to leverage public land and creative ways to leverage public land. For housing development lots of cities have looked at surplus land in their inventory and use that either donated that land or giving very low cost long term ground leases for housing development on that land targeted specific income bands. Seattle, is a really great example in 2015 they really started taking a look at this. And decided that the highest value of a lot of their city property was not in what they could sell it for money and how they could use it. And that housing was a priority and that they needed to use it that way, so they have leveraged. A lot of surplus land, as well as land and may have been used for other things I understand there may be parking lots available in boulder This is something that we're seeing.

[9:09] In a number of cities certainly Washington DC has looked at this a lot and fairfax Virginia actually to just this year has. has set aside a portion of the parking lot of their main city government Center that they're going to use for housing development beyond those kind of lots that you would find in a. That that that's a city mito they've also been looking to leverage lots that are owned by churches and other kind of. Public institutions, and I know that there probably aren't as many of those available there in boulder is, as you see, in Washington DC where there are lots of enormous church parking lots that are that are not. used extensively, but I think you know again thinking creatively about underused land and parking lots are a good example of that is a very helpful thing to do and and I would just this year again fairfax Virginia has set that.

[10:09] set that part of that huge lot that they have for no apparent reason aside for housing development and we're going to see that moving forward The other thing is one of the things i've looked at in DC is looking at. At fire stations and schools and not just looking at leveraging the parking watch or Jason land, but actually building housing above some of those facilities. And I think that that's that's Another important consideration because you can get the benefit of having the additional housing and if you're co locating it with. With something else it's part providing a public benefit, particularly the households in my living in that housing, that you can really. provide something that's a benefit to the families into the community at large, I guess the final thing.

[11:00] I would just mention again is looking at entitlement processes isn't cost and timelines. and providing incentives are ways to streamline streamline that particularly if you are creating housing to serve at a certain income level cat has been away that some communities have been able to get that done. Of course, the the having the way, and this is the first challenge, and then you can worry about the entitlement processes later, but I think. I think those are some of the main strategies that we're seeing around the land use side of the cost, and I do think that that's one of the the there's more opportunity to address the land, the land costs than there is some of the other drivers. That are there, including the entitlement piece, and including. Including the kind of technology piece, I think that we will see some building systems and things to address production down the line and reduce construction costs, but we haven't we're not seeing any of that really pay dividends to the degree that it needs to get.

[12:01] But i'll leave it at that i'd be happy to to answer answer any questions and i'm happy to follow up to with some links and some additional information on this stuff great. From Danny or vice, Chair of the headboard. Chris I just want to thank you for for coming and speaking to us, and so my question for my experience. Almost hand in hand for land and sometimes more onerous, if not more expensive is infrastructure costs and and. i'm I think there's a lot more tools that can be used for that, I mean in an urban setting you know there's picked some tips that I don't think are used. quite enough for you know local housing middle income, housing, etc, and even there's a statutory provision and collier county was, for you know essentially it's a. sinking fund that can front load the payment of infrastructure, but I haven't seen that use once and so, so my thing is i'm interested in, and you know what kind of innovative approaches, if any, if people don't have the infrastructure, because it's incredibly expensive and a lot of the.

[13:13] Water and sewer districts and i've experienced this myself I deal with you know quite a few actual development products for for local employees, but. They don't even waive their inclusion fees are their connection fees, when you deal with a local housing and those are our I mean it becomes cost prohibitive really I mean we're talking about millions of dollars there so. yeah i'm just interested in what insight, you might have on that because I know that's to me, there are lots of ways to stare up land, but you know the infrastructure. Is the other 400 pound gorilla in the room that I haven't seen too much and. And I don't know that there's any kind of kind of brilliant strategy around. I think it comes down, I think it comes down to money, and I think we are going to see some money coming from Washington that can be used for infrastructure development.

[14:05] And thinking about how that connects to housing is important as that planning is done, and so I think there's going to be a real opportunity to see money coming, I think the main strategy, though around. Managing those costs over the long over the long run, you know density is really is really key and concentrating on development and having and having mixed use development around new infrastructure, so that it is kind of kind of serving. All someone's life needs and and you know, enabling them. And you know, and if you do it right, with some of the water infrastructure and other things you can end and density and housing development, you can take take some pressure off some of the transportation infrastructure and other and other pieces of that. And so I again I don't think it's any kind of brilliant new new insight I just think it's not easy to do it's not easy.

[15:00] To get the dense density is such a bad word to so many people, and I think unreasonable so. um but that's really that's really important answer when it comes to housing, infrastructure and and again there's going to be. A lot of infrastructure money, money coming down coming down the pipe and and so just making sure that as that money is implemented, even if it doesn't have money, specifically for a housing piece that. A thoughtful about how it relates to the housing and how people live their lives and need to be connected. With jobs and education, and all those other pieces I think it's critical. Very. Good question you're entering. This Thank you so much, I really appreciate the presentation on bringing this this topic to boulder specific and bolts central border specific. we've done, whether you like it or not. The lot of very dense housing projects in the last 15 years I think more than anybody ever thought, so I think the city of boulder is embraced are supported are allowed.

[16:08] To use a lot of dense residential projects what's happened is a lot of those residential projects are marginally for red departments smaller units. And that's worked out well, and you know people are renting on the people living here and all that's great, but the missing middle in boulder is something that is getting worse because. The houses are the newer houses are getting bigger and the dense residential developments are getting smaller as far as units go the buildings are bigger, but the units are smaller. And they're mainly for rent and the ones that are for sale or larger but they're very expensive and so, even when we allow density on a on an infill lot and folder and we get you know. 2000 or 3000 square foot living unit now it's 3 million bucks which is not exactly the middle and so I guess, my question is.

[17:08] Is there a secret sauces or something that you can. point us in some direction, other than just deed restricting you know middle income units to a certain price and. And that's the only answer that's all that we've been really able to successfully do in boulder to try to get that little income price point is deep restricted, which you know, has a lot of. pros and cons as well, but I just want to hear your thoughts on the more bolder specific anything that we're missing anything that you can help us with. yeah well I I I did research, the deed restricted a certainly housing can be an important piece of the solution, but you're not you can't get to scale with back. And and and and it gets to a point to where you're really distorting at the at the top end of the market, it sounds like you've got some of that market distortion that you're that you're seeing the impacts.

[18:06] Of that, and potentially I don't I don't know enough of the details about it, but it sounds like that some of the dynamics that you're that you're working with there, and I mean, I think. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about putting substantial numbers and I, and I hear you on the sides of the units I think that's an that's a that's a huge problem nationally. That we haven't built units for families, particularly rental units we build rental units for families, since the age. At scale and and I think you are seeing you're seeing some responses to that now because again it's not just boulder were. Becoming homeowner has gotten totally unreasonable in and out of sight. it's really hard to become a homeowner in a lot of places across across the country, right now, so I think one of the responses you're saying. Are some of the lower density rental models and that that might be something that would be a way to add some more units some areas of boulder.

[19:08] That had been traditionally single family, it would be all those they're more appropriate from an architectural standpoint it's not putting I kind of did rise into a single family neighborhood. And so, thinking about ways to add density in parts of the city that don't have the density, but um but I mean, I think, at the end of the day, it's. it's it's about cost containment, the only way that you got to have production and you got to keep contained costs in the production. In order for the units to pencil at the level that you want them to at at at the end of the day, and so, whatever tools, you can apply to that, and again I think land use tools tend to be the ones that are there easiest in some ways are most available to to apply. But also looking at ways to streamline. Your entitlement processes provide you know.

[20:01] If opportunities or other kinds of financing opportunities are all every it's all of the above it's every. us, but ultimately, if you if you don't start getting enough units on the ground, then you know the deed restriction is just never get the deed restriction only only works as part of a bigger of a bigger toolbox and a part of a bigger plan and. It just can't get the scale, I totally agree with you, and our challenge here is. We don't have enough land and even if you were to take every single family zoning and make it a duplex it still wouldn't be enough, you know I mean and and and with that said. You know you're you're now 345 million dollar brand new single family homes, even if you cut that in half to a duplex it's still two to 3 million aside and that doesn't solve our middle income problems, you know. and changing the zoning doesn't put any additional units on the ground right they've changed the zoning in minneapolis it's a long time before you're going to see yes.

[21:07] Anyway, thank you, Chris effort. yeah well i'm i'm really glad we're having this conversation because I should preface it. By saying that we've determined the missing middle is where this board would like to focus his research and help make a difference and. i'm glad you pointed out that we're not alone in this, this is a problem, a lot of places it's it's not an insoluble problem but it's a very difficult one. A question I have is getting the parking lot I actually seen some studies showing that boulder commercially own parking lots on the eastern part of the city are. Not you know, maybe like 50% us so you know that could add up to some acreage, the question is like what kind of incentives you put in place to see that land converted to another. us.

[22:00] Maybe some of them that would. address the missing middle issue, I know that there's you want to be more homeownership for folks who have you know we're not millionaires. And that you know that that's a tough one, too, but thank you, how do you kind of get the ball rolling to start recycling some of that land and seeing a better but doing more productive and frankly human use. Well, I mean, I think you know, at the end of the day, developers want to develop and people want to build people want to build housing and I think that if you can, if. If the city at you know the city can incentivize the owners of those lots to develop them. it's not it's not out of the question to acquire those those lots and and make use of them, and you know, I think. I think the land itself is probably is probably the best incentive and and you know I I don't know what it takes I don't know kind of who owns land and and.

[23:02] What the what the plan is for certainly the city. could provide incentives, of the seat to the Bible and outright and leverage it for. routing purposes, what about a zoning. parcels like that, and you know, like texting them at a higher level is a kind of a prompt to say hey you know you're going to be paying tax on this land so we're. townhomes. Not just for parking I know that's been done in a few places, but you see any promise there. I think he can work I don't I don't know enough about its use broadly to know kind of what are the circumstances where it's most effective, but I think it's certainly. Again, you kind of with housing where production, where it is you kind of gotta try every lever available and and so you know, adding some cost to the under use of that land, I think, is is something worth considering for sure.

[24:10] i'm good questions. Okay. And then just. going to go on the phone. Okay. Chris I don't know if this is something that you, you know engage with, but one of the one of the things that I see here in boulder is, of course, we have the university. A lot of students, the vast majority of which are not. Being housed through university housing and so that's putting a big strain on neighborhoods and, in my view, it's put a fairly significant strain, I think, on our lower. Costs neighborhoods and have you seen any thing happening that can address that issue from a kind of municipal standpoint of saying well limitation on rental that's you know to students or I don't know some way to try to claw back.

[25:24] The investor kind of impetus that's there because you know the investors are happy to come in, and you know they're just parents of kids often but they're like oh heck This is great why don't we do it, so you know those homes, I think you know disappear from our from our middle market. yeah it's definitely a tough challenge and lots of cities with universities face it, and I mean, I think. You know I I always tend toward the supply the supply side, before the restrictions side because I think ultimately having enough units long term solution is having a.

[26:07] places that are appropriate for them to live and and your the rest of your population does so, I think, certainly if there are ways to incentivize more production of student only housing. Student restricted house, I think that that is a positive I think that's a positive thing more than maybe trying to put restrictions on housing, but that already exists. But I think you know fairfax Virginia, as another example that's where George mason university is, which is the largest University in the state and they. that's their response is primarily looking at their public land right now and other kinds of publicly facing institutions who have land available figuring out how to leverage that. may feel like that's the and they have very few I can I can read what the percentage is that it's a relatively few number of their students live on live on campus or mostly they're mostly commuters. From there in the fairfax area so that's certainly that's certainly something they're dealing with somewhere else that might be interesting to look at there's a lot more.

[27:08] Complicated there's a lot of complications to the situation but charlottesville Virginia is looking a lot at how to address their housing situation. Both the student perspective and the very low income perspective and the racial equity perspective and obviously there's a lot that's happened around that in charlottesville over the last couple of years. But there's some interesting conversations that are happening there they're trying to kind of re there's been a long been a divide between the university. And the and the rest of the residents of the city and they're trying to reconnect the city and the university into a Community again and it's been a difficult challenge, but I think there's some interesting conversations and strategies being talked about there that might be helpful. i'm not as familiar with them with all of the details of it, but I do know some folks who are working on that would be happy to.

[28:01] kind of pull some of that information together and share it because, again it's a major university and and and it's very limited housing stock in charlottesville it's a smaller it's a smaller city, and I think they're probably a lot of similarities to what they're dealing with them. Okay, thanks. Thank you Jay did you have something that and a question. I did that oh i'll let Juliet and maybe repeat that question but. I have, I have a question or. Chris thanks thanks for your your comments, my question is sort of dovetails a little bit on what Terry asked, and that is how do you marry up the housing type that's demanded by the population, the diverse population that we have here, so that when you're building. Because you're talking about building units is the solution but there's also we have data that shows that a lot of people can.

[29:07] choose to live outside the city, because they don't get the housing type that they want here at the price that they want, but they're willing to make some trade offs. And so, how do you marry up the actual demand for the housing type with. The developers desire to build wherever and whenever they can. whatever they want. Whatever is best for that you know for from an Roi standpoint, I mean I get it like they're trying to you know that's that's the endgame on on the on the market size market rate side. Well, I mean, I think I hey I think I guess, my impression is that in general. is given the opportunity developers are going to respond to the demand obviously they're going to look for Roi but that's in response to specific demand that they see for a product type they want to provide and.

[30:04] So I think it's going to provide incentives to get them to provide the product type that is seen as more broadly needed and because I mean unless i'm I don't know, maybe I had there been has there been developments that have kind of housing developments that have failed. In. The state, I would say, an international response to that. There they haven't failed they've just not necessarily accomplish the goal of providing more affordable housing up to you want them to say no to that computer prize. Yes, i'm i'm recalling now and maybe Jay might have been in that discussion I can't remember, but one of the things that came up and some of the. Discussions about middle housing middle income housing is that the stock is very low, and when we had the developers even our own, are you know, affordable housing here in the city, they often times the units that I.

[31:14] proposed are wanted two bedrooms and often for rental with it in the argument is that this is what is needed. Well, you know we tried to argue that back in the planning board that you know just because that's what it's always been done that doesn't mean is the only. thing that is needed, so I think that discussion needs to be changed, somehow, because people are using like typical rise like. i'm watching a movie that is an action packed movie and then everything is it gets offer after that is actual path movies, and I frankly done with that I want to be a romantic comedy and i'm not allowed to. That literally that's how things go here, this is the American way of doing things give me the same thing over and over so there's gotta be a way to shift this thinking, I said Well, this is not really what we want yeah I know I love it when I made it so i'm make people smile because.

[32:09] Because this, it can be a cannot lie conversation, but it really is something where the key thing is to. change our way of thinking, so that we bring in this disruption, it is now what we already have a we need, obviously we haven't met their needs So how do we change that, so I think that. Julia was kind of brought it up, I think you know the argument now is how can we incentivize the developers and the only thing we've been able to kind of throw at a some of them is is the one survey that was done a while back. In in in most people haven't even. consulted it with regards to you know what what what people who have not been able to buy houses here would like to have.

[33:01] And I think you brought it up right Julia last time yeah, so I think that that conversation if there was a way that we can make it an effective argument that will be a good a good outcome, I think, because it's not an easy one to make yet I think you must be me. know your your point is very well taken and I think I think one of the things that gets missed about the about the missing middle. Is is that it's connecting the other ends of the market and what we saw, particularly in the in the pandemic, where you have this kind of had this kind of K shaped recovery. Is you've seen people stuck at opposite ends of the market, who needed to be able to move and who haven't been able to because there's nowhere to go. In the middle and and so you have people who are living in lower cost housing who actually could afford to pay a little bit more in but like to live in a little bit larger unit. But maybe they've only been developing those one or two bedroom units and they don't have a larger unit available to move up to. And if they did, that would leave that lower income unit available for someone who desperately needs that unit as as well, so I think you know just from up just connecting the market and having it so that people have choices that change over time, as their needs change is critical so.

[34:17] i'm having an idea here and, of course, it might sound weird. But you know, we have, at least in the planning board a lot of times when we have discussion about you know some of the larger houses, we have a lot of people here who live in larger houses that really don't need those larger houses. myself included, you know my oldest son, I only have two children, the oldest one is already in College and the second one will be going so like me that are a lot much older than me people living in a three or four bedroom house and there's only one person or two people. Has there been any history on any places probably outside the US, where people look at trainings you know, or you know kind of incentivizing those resonance to size down so that those those houses become available for people who actually need that sighs.

[35:11] I think I don't know I think it's I think it's a I think it's an interesting thought, though, and something and something worth looking at, and I think, and I do think that there are certain number of folks. Again, who who are living in those larger houses, who might like to move into a into a smaller, less expensive unit, but there's not. it's not that that is what they want hasn't been built. And so those larger units that are I do know that some places, I know in baltimore, for example, and I can't remember the name of the neighborhood there's. there's a neighborhood with some very large, old homes many that are that are actually sitting empty now that they're trying to figure out. How to leverage those for more affordability, whether to create something more along the lines of a boarding house model that we had you know. 7500 years ago for to provide some of that housing and some of these Lower House in some of these larger homes for just to separate them into two or three units.

[36:10] And and use them, I know that that is it's it's not in the same sense of trying to get folks to move out of them in baltimore their their houses that are sitting empty, but they are looking at how to use some of those larger homes. To do that, but i'm not aware that anyone's tried to incentivize it, but it is definitely an interesting idea. Chris are you okay with saying i'm taking some more questions this is such an important conversation okay great I think jack and Terry both head and range so jack why don't you go first well. Mine wasn't so much a question, particularly but it's kind of a follow up on Juliet and and lupica and this concept of. You know, and this is obviously a large. discussion to be had with the city, but a little bit of looking at it from the supermarket model, and you know as the Peter says, if you only put.

[37:13] The same things on the shelves that were there, and maybe it's food that you don't want people to eat, people are going to buy that anyway because they're going into that market to buy that food and. And so, this is a really broad discussion, but I just think it's a really good point for us to be thinking about wrapping our heads around a little bit and just kind of start discussion amongst ourselves on can we cure rate, you know as a Community. The. built environment that we're looking for which will also put different housing on the shelves than what people might say they want because that's what they know they want. And you know where's that balance between kind of the individuals desire, you know my boy would love to have six mountain bikes.

[38:03] And maybe getting something that's a little bit different but still fits their their needs, at the end of the day when they can look at it differently and. And so that's just this big broad discussion, but I glad that kind of both you guys touched on that of what are we offering. How does it fulfill what people want and how does it also fulfill what the Community needs and trying to marry those two things together, is the challenge that we're facing so it's it's a good one to dig into so that was just. Good one to follow up there. Terry did have something. you're still muted. Hello yo honey. That and I here with a pita saying that you know we're building all these one and two bedroom for rent apartments because that's what we need for the reality is when it comes to the boulder housing market, we need every there's nothing we don't need. Whether it's big small Ferenc the sale, whatever it is attached townhome duplex it all gets absorbed.

[39:06] Almost instantly right so it's not. I agree that the market is there for one or two bedroom rental product, but the markets also there for everything else. So really from a developer's perspective from a bookings perspective we build and develop what we're allowed to do right boulder zoning code is you know extensive and and very, very. Very much following right we don't just go out and do whatever we want because we sell the markets, there we do what's allowed on that particular piece of property right. there's probably many of us that would instead of building a single family home the brother build a duplex or triplex or whatever, but that's a lot. Maybe on some of these big 200 unit or hundred 50 unit multifamily one and two bedroom projects, you know we would rather see more. Family style town home style product but that's not allowed so it's really what gets built out there is what's allowed to be built by the city of boulder city dictates what's on the shelves at the grocery store.

[40:11] Not so much the market because the market here is such that everything's bought off the shots so whatever the city allows us to put on those shelves it's going to be bought or rented, no matter what it is. And that's something that I think gets overlooked, a lot of times people look at the developers and well they're just building these expensive well that's what's allowed to be done. Right something else who's allowed to be done, or if that was restricted or Whatever the case may be, then the other thing. And that's one point, another point somebody talked about the people with with the bigger homes and families is. we've run into this demographic crunch, where baby boomers were a huge population segment right 6070 million people they're mainly living in those big four and five bedroom larger. Then we have this pandemic and the millennials for all living in mainly urban centers and those one or two bedroom apartments.

[41:05] They started wanting to get out of there are a couple of not having kids they will suddenly to single family homes are more room right. And, and we create this huge crunch, because there's not enough of it there's there's no place for the baby boomers to go there's nowhere to downsize there's not a quality product that table. Prices are going up the millennials are leaving low and going to the portal or wherever and. and driving up the prices and low single family homes because everybody wants to yarder small space or more bedrooms or Home Office or Whatever the case may be. And it's just this unbelievable situation where this pandemic, along with the baby boomers living longer and aging in place and millennials. wanting to get out of cities and needing more space because they're having kids or they won't work from home or Whatever the case may be. it's just it's crazy what's happened, the last 18 months I don't know the history of housing in this country definitely not hear anything like that happened.

[42:03] But we're here now and what it's done when it's done for our city because we're focused on folder here and I love the global discussion, but for folks so boulder. is just make everything, even more expensive than it used to be, and it was already so expensive. And it just makes for we're trying to accomplish middle income housing reform it even harder and it's just it's it's an unbelievable pickle it's an unbelievable pickle that we're in and I don't know that anybody has the answers, but I think we keep trying we keep trying. And if I could just mention what I would just say. We did look we looked a lot at those demographic drivers we actually released a report on that last year and still. That demographic push from the millennial cohort that's in house information that's we're going to see that for years to come, yeah. there's not going to isn't isn't going to be released, but I would say in terms of the city deciding what it is that it wants put on the shelves. There are really good examples of cities that have had very little very little housing development at all just not not only not the housing that they needed but very little at all, but who have had some.

[43:12] amazing public engagement industry engagement that led to an incredible development so and specifically i'm thinking about new Rochelle New York. it's a suburb of New York City they hadn't built anything in the downtown there for 10 years. They decided what kind of housing, they wanted they created an overlay zone for a part of new Rochelle new Rochelle and said. These are the number of units, we want at different income levels, these are the incentives financial incentives that we will provide the density bonuses, that we will provide an order in return for you doing that and we will guarantee approval. or rejection of every project proposed within 90 days, so the the entitlement timelines you know exactly when you're going to know. And and and you can before that developers weren't interested in new Rochelle now developers were falling all over themselves to get there and they've actually exceeded.

[44:08] And what they've got in the pipeline now, both on the market rate side and on the affordable side in terms of housing production, plus it's and it's mixed use it's you know it's it's. it's kind of before mixed use pen please no but that's happening there, but on the housing side they've been super successful in defining what they wanted. Defining it in cooperation with residents, businesses and developers and then putting a system together that is transparent and predictable. And and it's turned things around there and and they're producing a broad range or range of units because that's what the city said that that people can build. Danny had his hands, and then the pizza. So I just wanted to absolutely agree with what are you sad and I think you know the one point that I want to make and and just really kind of wrestling with this in recent times, and because this goes along with the point that you may, which seems to be what a lot of communities.

[45:10] Like boulder and like mountain has have tried to kind of sweep under the table is everybody's declaring. You know states of emergency in terms of housing right now is this that. You know I remember, I went to law school see you back in the 90s, and there were all those. density restriction movements and ballot referendums and stuff and one of the big things was it's going to close out the working class and I think that what we're seeing throughout the State, a lot of times throughout the country. Is kind of the come up and sort of the reality of that because it what we did is commodity commodity ties probably said that wrong density to such a ridiculous degree that. everybody gets their hands on density tries to maximize the Roi and that density, rather than building developments that are going to be for middle income or where you know the the.

[46:02] The goal isn't necessarily to squeeze every dollar out of every unit of density, they have and and i'm not even saying good or bad, necessarily, but I do think it's something that. i've seen all these communities, and you know do a lot of work up in the mountain towns and it's hilarious because everyone's like How did this happen and there's a lot of reasons, but one of them is you know when you put an absolute cap on density. Well it's it's kind of a natural effect that you're going to see occur, and so you brought that up and I just wanted to commend you because I do think that's something that. You know, we do need to very soberly appreciate, in light of these communities and realize, you know what it's rot you know positives and negatives so that's that's all I had to say on that. Thank you Danny Peter did you have another question or comment. I think he he raised your hand. Yes, so I think going along the lines of have that discussion, he has to do with every time we bring up the idea of setting you know the standard, not a standard by mortal the the goal, and we do have you know the boulder Valley.

[47:14] comprehensive plan, but there is no articulation really have this is the kind of house and we want. Which is, I think we have made that argument before in the planning board and every time we bring it up it's like it's not possible. Or it couldn't be a to me, I think that a new Rochelle makes total sense to me if the city really wants to fulfill their needs. Their articulated if you're never say why you need you're never going to get that from the. From the developers so obviously they're going to come out with whatever makes more money for them that's what we see all the time, so there's no surprise there, but what was surprising to me is that. We don't even have the i'm sorry the guts to say what we want that to me makes no sense whatsoever.

[48:02] That makes no sense, you know, a city that really wants to have control of the growth would at least say this is what we need, and it will be known by everyone. And we will have some sort of provisions to make sure that when people come to us with what we want they're going to have an easier time than when they don't. have an opposite going on right now so i'm just wanted to mention that. Thank you. i'm gonna guess we cj we respect christopher's time I have a couple of comments and maybe one more question. I do think this dialogue is evolving into a little bit of an either, or at least in some corners of you know gosh we're getting too much stack dense housing at the expense of missing middle homeownership opportunities. You know, some sites are really appropriate for for the former, and you know I don't think that like diagonal clauses and the next great single family name.

[49:05] And we do need housing for people who work in service industries even students are moving at a boulder and commuting. Down the turnpike So the question is like, how do we get and you know we're getting those projects, a lot of them are being approved that we have the prospect of that at Alpine balsam. Like where are we really going to be looking to create this other aspect of missing middle it's a big question is tough one, and my. last question for Christopher you've already provided some great suggestions, is what we're going to form a working group or some working groups to start looking into this and do independent. Research and looking to make recommendations to counsel in long run, and you mentioned new Rochelle you mentioned charlottesville what are some other comps and places where you can you know dig in and really see what they've done. I would, I would say. On the on the student side charlottesville and fairfax Virginia are good good good examples to look at.

[50:04] um I think. it's worthwhile taking a look back in 2019 we did a report in Washington DC on getting some housing and the one of the more expensive areas of Washington DC and a lot of those recommendations. I think are are applicable they did they talk a lot about made use restrictions and opening those up and and dealing with with high land costs. Seattle again from a leveraging city land is a great place to look and the other thing to remember after that the other thing I just like to kind of reinforce on the DC pieces, I think, looking at. i'm at educational and religious and other kinds of institutions that have land and in particularly ones that have some sort of social focus or mission focus. And and offering them the opportunity to provide housing that people really need, I think, I think that that's.

[51:03] it's an opportunity that shouldn't be that it shouldn't be ignored. And then I think I think on the entitlements piece and on getting developer interest and, frankly, on building consensus from the developer community. and local residents about what's needed the process that they undertook in new Rochelle is is outstanding and the outcomes that they're seeing there is outstanding and they love, sharing information about it so. The development conditioner there loves talking about these very proud of what you've done there, so they they love engaging so though those are the primary. i'll give it some thought in terms of some other places that might be good analogues to look at because they're probably a few more than just start popping the nine at the moment. that's great that's great, and you know, maybe you can think of a few other college towns, those are. Expensive Berkeley and so forth. Any last question it's quite a bit later for Christopher on the east coast, maybe one more.

[52:05] If anybody has one. Okay that's great I really appreciate you making the time Christopher was really helpful to us. Absolutely glad glad to do it, I hope I hope this was helpful and stay in touch if. If the Center can be helpful moving forward if you all, are going to do a deeper dive into some of these issues and we can provide some support or expertise from board members or others that we work with at the Center that can be helpful we're happy to do that. that's great if you have any case studies on those places, especially if they have executive summaries or like a page long send them along. Okay i'll put some information together and follow up with you. Okay, thank you again. Thanks everyone. Take care guys. Thanks everybody for being part of that conversation I thought that was valuable. Our next agenda item is, I believe the. Mobile ad you or didn't.

[53:03] and leave there now I gotta find the right file sorry. So we're continuing our conversation about that and. Here we go. There are some highlighted in the document in the packet there's some highlighted Sections I believe those are areas for further discussion as I write I write to debbie colleagues. Michael cera can can we back up just a little bit. Absolutely on the middle income, you talked about, or on the agenda, talks about forming those. Well i'm sorry I skipped right over that. Too many windows in my screen yeah I think I think we have interest in doing that i'm, personally, am interested in the idea of looking into some of the analogues the COMP cities.

[54:07] And maybe getting some some wisdom and see and see what's worked in other places, especially on this missing middle issue. We could discuss if that's a working group or a reduced in one working group do we need more than one who has thoughts about that. I mean Michael I have I guess. He started talking about that the thoughts that I had were. You know the missing middle is one piece to look at, but then there's that broader discussion that kind of bubbled up tonight about the city in general, and you know. As as Peter said, like. defining what it is we want actually from housing. In a more. You know, specific manner, but I do think that.

[55:01] You know just looking at if we put a working group together on something having a detailed or a narrow enough focus that we. You know that we can actually. accomplish something there and not get too broad would be important to so just put that out there, just to be thinking about how you know that missing middle piece ties in with the general discussion about what are we trying to achieve as far as housing goes. Right, what are the numbers, we need for different types of units and then. What you know, can we just carve off one piece and focus on that, or is there kind of a broader discussion that needs to happen first before you even carve off a piece. So just those are kind of my initial thoughts on it. Okay. well.

[56:07] I think just talking about this, some today and everything I think it's a pretty broad issue, I think that. And kind of dovetail on this into your letter Michael which I, like you know we'll get to you. But. You know, since this is something that we're going to be focusing on I think probably at this point in time. it's a pretty small board right here on my computer screen, I think that maybe you know, continue to deal with these issues, collectively, for now till we get a little more sharp and focus on, you know what issues, particularly are going to be the most germane. And then, setting up a working group once I get to that juncture is probably a good way to go, I. Remember working group in that. If i'm paraphrasing correctly. yeah just kind of hold on we are the working group until um yeah we have a little more kind of.

[57:07] myopic vision of which parts of it, we want to really kind of push forward first, because I think there's a lot of moving pieces right now that we can still try to wrap our heads around collectively. Okay. I think I heard two tracks from Jacques one was you know, look at the big picture of the vision for housing of the city based on data and i'm paraphrasing so let me know if i'm getting that right, and the other is find a sub issue to focus on. The using the newer Shell example they focused on their downtown and how to create housing there, and you know that from Christmas description, and that was successful. i'll just leave that out there, for now, who else would like to comment.

[58:01] Please. I agree with what with Danny just suggested that we. We are the working group, for now, and I think there's more that we've got to flesh out and I love that idea of defining. Having the city define what it wants and i'm even thinking of all that would make an interesting listening session to have middle income folks that missing that will come in and talk about. What would they like to see as a follow up to the survey that was done in the past and so i'm sorry I kind of got off on a tangent there, but I feel like there's. A lot a lot of interesting things and I also feel like this middle income housing is not something we're just. Tackling for this year and then we're moving on to something else I think it's a much longer term, and it could be a perpetual topic of conversation, because it is going to be. A perpetual challenge, as you know, Terry kind of articulated with especially it's been exacerbated by the pandemic So those are my comments.

[59:11] yeah I totally agree with that this is going to be with us. For a long time. Listening radio is really intriguing. Take. Give and dates on whether there are new applications for the they can hand positions. There was an email. few days ago from the. Committee, which is nearby and. who's the other guy to Council members anyway, they requested time on the agenda for CAC to make a midterm appointments I don't know who they're going to appoint I know we've only received one application today. So you do know people, please encourage them to apply, so it is possible that there might be one midterm appointment.

[60:04] Okay, well, I I posted it on my personal Facebook page I have like 8 million friends so i'm disappointed here there's only one application yet, please. um so with respect to that and I was gonna actually suggest this as a maybe a topic we could bounce around together but i'm finding that this size Board of five is highly functional. And I know it used to be five members, and it was increased i'm not exactly sure why it was increased, but it was increased to seven, which is how Terry and I ended up on the board when we did. And I would say that i'm finding these meetings far more productive and efficient and useful. And I actually when I was helping with the. The Doers putting together the Committee for new words or press. The renters committee or helping with interviewing somebody from the city of boulder I think it might have been clay.

[61:07] mentioned that he's been served on multiple committees and he finds five to be a much more productive number than seven. Also, and I know five was chosen as a number for that efforts committee so i'm just I was going to throw that out there as maybe something we want to discuss, to see if I don't know if other people agree with that. concept of. Saying hey let's go back to five people I know you want to have an odd number for votes that's helpful but. It could be something if others agree that it's they're having a similar experience that maybe we propose that to counsel on our letter, if in fact others, you know people agree, I know that's kind of a later topic, but i'm just throwing it out there since you're bringing up. Nominations and appointments. You know I find that very interesting you're right bigger committees aren't always better certainly my experience I.

[62:07] converse with conversely, could be a more diverse group if we added people I don't think we have a renter in this group do we. Have we don't have. A millennial or sublet millennial. jack when are you rolling off the island off next year. She wants to replace every young person. yeah. I think the person who applied is is a renter and millennium. Really. yeah i'm in March or whatever we flip over will be my last. The end of my four years. yeah well I would certainly give that a lot of time you're suggesting doing I like to hear what other people think about that. I think i'm a little torn on it, I think one of the reasons I kind of agree with Juliet that there's kind of a.

[63:07] An efficiency to the meeting aspect I suppose the question becomes for me if we actually start to pull things off our plate like I was just rolling through the boulder you know the BBC p. section on housing and i'm like well, maybe this is just what we need to do is sit down walk through that. engage with Jay to you know update us on how these things are currently being engaged with, in other words there's a lot of talk about the city will do this, the city will do that the but. For my knowledge and understanding, a lot of that hasn't been dealt with so. If we do, then want to start to make suggestions about how the BBC P might be actually channeled into policy. And programs, then that may be more work than five people can.

[64:08] can manage, which I think is one of the reasons we went to seven initially thinking Okay, we need to have you know enough bodies here to do some to do some more substantial work. That may mean that we don't need seven right now, and maybe we maybe there's maybe there's a different way to do that, where we can maintain this kind of. structure that Giuliana thing seems to work pretty efficiently and effectively in the meetings, but we can you know reach out and bring other people in who could help with some of those things. So I don't know but that's just my thought I see that I see the. Potential need of both of those numbers, so to speak, so i'm not as clear about it but. yeah. Thank you, I think this is why this came up to three months ago is we felt, you know there's some issues we deal with we could use more than one working group, and I do have a technical question I haven't been part of a working group yet.

[65:13] we've hired where the working group, where you could only really grapple with a working group topic at a and one of our meetings right, because it would be a public meeting Is that correct. Like we couldn't meet separately to. move in. Okay. Okay, am I a are the open meetings act feel a lot of people knows the sunshine law it's a no more than two members of a group so that I think it used to be quorum and then push it down to so. Right, if you have a meeting have more than three technically that's an open meeting so. that's why. The respective, unfortunately. yeah so we can't just meet in two weeks until the virus lips.

[66:05] You know plan our next steps for missing middle having strategy. Now. Okay yeah now it's just it's it's it's tough. yeah. You could ever devote an entire meeting to working on it. And maybe that's not a bad idea. I think I think. I just I think Julie brought up some really good points in terms of. Especially with what we're you know we're at right now the, the question of five working and and. So I represent several nonprofits special districts, etc, and a lot of them, we have a sliding scale for for the size of the board, going from five to seven and.

[67:00] I think that works pretty well. I kind of concur that right now, you know jack I, I agree with your point that you know sometime in the future. If we're expanding our scope to tackle some of those other issues, then add seven may make a lot more sense, but I do think that. Having that flexibility filter that scale is something that probably. is pretty logical and maybe could be one of those things that we address and the letter Council so. will be. Your hand. Yes, so a couple of thoughts one, I agree, I used to teach. I did I taught introduction to engineering design for many years and I discover above five is absolute maximum sex becomes not very efficient so often I, so I developed that rule if, instead of having.

[68:03] You know, a large group of six, or rather have two groups of three. or even we have seven three and four will be more often, you know more productive likely, so the question then becomes. Is it allow it, and I think donnie Joe sounds so the question that on the the present rules or not, but there can be a preposition that for subcommittee work that. Something like this can be allowed. that's, the only thing I just wanted to make sure that I, I agree with some of you, because I think that this there is truth to it about efficiency. But also there's also need to have more people working on problems it's just about how you can make it happen is the rules on allowing now so look at the Rules and update them. Great. I have a proposal but i'm happy to hear more comments before making it.

[69:05] OK, so my idea is that our next meeting. which we need to move around in the schedule a little bit because of thanksgiving I believe we can treat it primarily as a working group meeting, I would ask each of you to bring. Two or three ideas related the missing middle perhaps categorize as. Christopher laid it out. You know, maybe somebody comes with zoning and ton of ideas, somebody else says land basis, ideas and we can compare notes and also diving a little bit into the geography of the comps. And just have a discussion about that and share some some research. Leading up to next steps.

[70:03] don't think that's something we need to, but I want to see if you're doing that. Danny. I think I think the November meeting, maybe doing that and finalizing the. letter to Council meeting can be like are two things on the agenda. know and it would make a lot of sense, and then we talked about you know whether or not we have a December meeting so that could be a good way to transition to the new year, so I think that'd be a great idea. Company. Another thing that occurs me from listening today is. The city has so many problems to it having initiatives and strategies to do we need to be briefed on kind of how they all fit together or where they're not fitting together. Is that a possible presentation to the. next meeting, and if so, who would who would have the knowledge in scope to do that sort of thing.

[71:01] Probably a question for Jay. And AJ. Before I accept I need to know more what you're looking. For. So I mean I give you an overview of the middle income housing strategy. balls that were employing now. What more are you thinking. I think we're thinking more about it all fits together with COMP plan and. You know other other initiatives. Maybe it's time in history, we have been briefed on a lot of different topics. I mean i'm happy to provide more context on you know why the COMP plan goals are written the way they are, I mean I mean I think it'd be worthwhile to spend some time. As your suggested to talk through go through the housing section, and you know I can i've been involved with the last two updates.

[72:07] So I do know sort of the backstory of why they're. Why, they are what they are, you know why we don't have specific targets for each income level, why we don't try to target, you know ownership versus rental you know I can provide you all that background in terms of policy level. So yeah happy to do that. If if, if I may. I will suggest also to keep in mind, from the perspective of the city, what are the aspects that are most challenging. Because we may not be aware of what those are and we may be asking the same question over and over, but if we get that clear in our minds, we may be able to help, more so than just I won't say complain, but bring up the same issues. Sometimes it's just not clear to us what the real hurdles are but you do so, you know feel free to kind of highlight those.

[73:06] yeah um well and I was, I was gonna ask Christopher this question specifically because a lot of the tools that he. discussed almost all of them, I mean, I would say our tools that the city of boulder has been deploying or. Working on for many years, but it's not specific to middle income right, so you know we have mount calvary right, so we we we do look for opportunities with churches people want a lot of property. You know, anyway, all the other tools that the challenge that we have with middle income right is that there isn't a federal tax incentive through the low income housing tax credits right so. What subsidy to create that deed restricted home pretty high, and so the question is, as a community are we comfortable subsidizing.

[74:03] A household in boulder to the tune of 300,000 $400,000 because we want that diverse and maybe maybe we do, but I think that's kind of a big question, and what are the funding sources for that I think that's one I mean there's a lot more that we could talk about. That there's no specific like middle income tool and as Terry so the challenges, even if you build that miss missing middle. Housing right, it can be thousand square foot 12,000 square feet i'm sorry 1200 townhome it can be attached, it can even have a yard. it's not going to be affordable, particularly as new construction to middle income households that's to me are big challenge right how. Do we get the markets deliver, and I think that's The thing that I want to try to communicate to christopher's. You know it's great you know and low cost communities to look at middle income tools and trying to use market, the market is already way exceeded in boulder.

[75:09] Right, I mean, so the we're not going to be able to get the market to respond produce the housing that we really want to see which is lot for you know it's family friendly right. And then, just the other piece, and this is sort of my what I tried to be very careful about to when when I say you know I think boulder once more housing. For families, it almost sounds like i'm saying I want more housing for people like me right, so I think we need to be really careful about how we talk about that and the demographics, have clearly shifted and you know those. I would just say the average household size has gone down dramatically, so you know when we say you know we don't need more zero or one bedroom units, I agree with Michael I think there's definitely a demand there, but the question is.

[76:12] And how do we. influence the market so, even if we were to provide some more options in boulder like the housing choice service that what what's not going to prevent somebody to always want to be able to get a little bit more. More House more yard. Men trade off is there willing to drive. yeah. I let me throw out a number and. I found that interesting so. Anyway, US my opinion, so I told you and. that's great. Three or 4000 that's actually I think a. Pretty cool potential target my son zach 2625 he bought a house for about 350 it's not in boulder and he's you know, has an entry level job at do when that's probably a function of.

[77:03] low interest rates are great and we didn't give them any money he did this, and so. he's pretty serious relationship will probably get married next couple years I mean this is kind of the type of person we're talking about right so providing for sale housing. That level might actually be beneficial to people are not like me or a lot younger than me. And you know haven't been sitting on their bowler house for 20 years, so you know that's kind of interesting to put numbers or anything about it, what the target might be, it might be a to do a couple. Family that doesn't make a lot of money individually to i'm sorry to her, but it adds up to enough to buy a home and my little another question, I had. It seemed like 15 years ago, maybe even 20 years ago boulder was. Providing more for sale housing through exclusionary zoning and deed restriction and kind of not really clear why.

[78:04] We haven't done more of that if you look at projects like iris hollow where you can buy a 2500 square foot house. it's market rate or you can buy it either square foot house it's deep restricted in there, you know pretty much next to each other, you get the mixed income thing going to. So what do you think that we didn't haven't seen more that in more recent times with the shift toward Rentals and smaller unit. yeah, and I mean that's a great question that comes up a lot, and you know and it's fascinating i've read memos from counsel from 15 years ago. That says the exact opposite says we have too many homeownership we need more Rentals We need people who provide service important services and the Community, be a. publisher and all we're getting our ownership opportunities. So it is. Very much market driven I think if you look at any market and there might have been a great question for Christopher if you look at almost any market in this country, particularly high cost markets.

[79:07] you're going to see that Rentals are the predominant housing type that's being provided, and so I think it will shift again, but there are other challenges to that are unique to Colorado the construction defects laws which gets. me oh yeah. Oh yeah so I mean we tried really hard to get you know we've known about this issue over a decade right so. we've been trying to get middle income units you tried to do it at 30 Pearl we're going to try again in oakland balsam but at 30 Pearl if you know we couldn't. incentive up a private developers sufficiently to be able to come up gate and build ownership, the best that we could do is that they would build Rentals without the seven year period and then convert them and have the option to convert them into.

[80:00] Those and and that might be a good strategy because again new construction with ownership. I just don't see it being. within the reach of middle income households. here either. yeah. I would argue that that you look at the last 20 years in boulder major projects and At first it was iris hollows it was I was hollow northfield comments northfield village whatever it's called over there. Right, it was holiday was decoder rich and those are all you know more densely populated for sale telluride homes single family home stuff and that was. That was coming up, you know from 15 years ago 20 years ago and then in the last 10 years it was more dense for rent one bedroom product literally holder junction downtown a little bit, so it seems like it seems like again what we're allowed to build what gets built, we could identify.

[81:05] kind of the courage right before bridge could be 2000 units if we built one or two bedroom apartments but that's not what we learned there or holiday. or northfield commons or right so to a certain extent, I think we take a step back and we look at the 5000 foot view and we say, and I think this is good, we say. Dakota rich and holiday, those are not core dense areas we shouldn't build super dense things there and we didn't but then we look at junction and 30 Pearl and old stuff on there and Pearl street when we say that's where density should be in 28th and Canyon for hotels. So there's a market driven stuff zoning and then there's also within the city where certain things should be. And it just so happens that in the last 10 years we've got all that student housing or 28 treaties are coming into town very visible very dense very boxy.

[82:02] we've got all the 30th apparel stuff we've got downtown boulder with pro East or West, and so it just feels like a lot of that has happened recently and it's big and it's it's it's you notice. But we've had that both is what i'm getting at. And Terry keep in mind all those projects that you just mentioned are getting ownership, those were all annotations. Yes. In exchange for getting city service. We required 50% or more of all of those projects had to be really affordable. So that's how we get in those situations and you're right, I mean boulder junction downtown 28 street frontage those were all within city of boulder city services. Much different very different animal. Right.

[83:01] well. It kind of gets back to. Another point that. Interesting road after you get what you ask for, there was a time where we asked for for sale. Opportunities in boulder and then that shifted I do remember now if it goes back a little ways 15 years, and you know, maybe it's time to start asking. For more diversity product on the market is a huge factor dairy and others know capitalism is pouring in the multifamily right now it's. happening in Denver it's happening in boulder and you know you can force investors to put their money in the types of exactly the types of projects, we want to build, but there are other ways incentivizing them Peter. Yes. I mean this is getting me thinking about more of the models on the financing, because you know one thing is to just build an entity or you know.

[84:04] A. A building and you know going that you'll make money, but also where the money comes from is also a I will call it a an unknown. If there's only few places, you can go to get money to build a new development of course it's going to be limited choices and Jay brought it up. If we had you know, an option for substance substance subsidies for middle housing, we will have more are more of it, because it will be that opportunity extra so. Given that that is not an option, at least not now what other financing models are there, that will facilitate something like this, and this question is more for people who work in development, all of you that may have worth and other. In other areas, because I think he just about what we want is flexibility and the flexibility can come from different aspects of the whole process and so maybe there is some something to be said, I don't know because we haven't seen the the reports from like new Rochelle but.

[85:15] I think it was mentioned that the the city participated on that they they made you know, like an articulation of what they want it, but i'm sure he wasn't just saying it there was something that was associated with that what did they what did they do, how the day, maybe. and I know they went out and recruited developers have certain time. All i'm saying is that maybe we just need to think outside the same little box and think about what all the things could happen or could be brought in to the process to make this thing more possible than you personally, yes.

[86:00] I like it. I mean. we're not making any progress now, so we need to be thinking about some other ideas penny. Just looping based on what you're saying I mean, I think, maybe this is something for the November meeting but yeah like Jay was saying that the expanse. of subsidizing middle income retro retrospectively is almost cost prohibitive realistically right, you know 300,000 per unit, or whatever it may be, but I think that. The whole notion of and the city's done a great job of trying to jump into the fray on this, but you know, ultimately, the things you can do to incentivize it and that's why I know that, like you know. Dr we've been talking about like streamline so repeated that's what Chris was mentioning. In New Rochelle you know 90 day you know I represent a lot of developers and if somebody advertise to them hey there's a 90 day entitlement approval process that you know it's kind of like moths to a flame right, and you know, the same thing the saying okay.

[87:10] yeah you get a density increase. For market rate, as well as for locals housing, if you do it this way, etc Those are the things that you need to do you know you need to try to. really create the capital with the incentives that you can have and it's a good thing to do is to hold back that density, but then. offer that density is as an incentive, because you get a lot of mileage from it, but I think ultimately it's really going to be. As one thing i'd love to you know I don't think today, you know, we have some other things on our plate here that are somewhat related, but I do think that that whole notion of. What incentives, there may be is something for us really focused on in November and really explore, you know deeper fashion, because. incentives are the best way to do something from a regulatory basis where you're not just tapping into the checkbook at every point in time, because government finances are limited.

[88:04] Invariably, and there isn't that many you know alternative financial things that's why I brought up infrastructure, because that's one where you can. You know pop that Cork of financial, not a little bit, but yeah incentives are really going to be the driving force and just different kinds and different models and whatever you can do. Right, I think that's what I prefer kept driving on the land basis part of it, too, because that's the way of you know if you can get the land, for your cheap way of driving down those costs the bill. attainable housing, did you have your hand up Terry. Any other comments, I want to call the. call a question, make a suggestion, and then we can move on to the next. agenda item. Okay, so my suggestion is our next meeting.

[89:03] We can have this Jason net be our guest speaker series fantastic and maybe we can focus a little bit on when we want to ask them for but i'm what i'm thinking of is. kind of how do we get where we are today, I mean you just really enlightened me and reminding me about some of those changes and directions from say 2000 to 2005. As around for that, but i'd forgotten some of the history and. Then, maybe delving into the COMP plan a little bit more to say what does it really say about housing my kind of housing goes where with some examples. What else would people like to hear about in that regard. so good. Job yeah that sounds good, I was just going to say you know again going through, for instance, I think it's valuable to go through the bcp in the middle income strategy and already say well.

[90:08] You know, in these areas, you know land use and policy and middle income Community benefit. What have we done, but what have we fail to do or where maybe we push harder in those spaces, I think, is what i'd be curious to look into because, when I look at it, I say yeah we are doing these things or we've had a you know attended to some of them, but. How aggressively how directed have those efforts been and I think that's the place where i'd kind of like to engage with it. Not just saying Okay, well, we have done those things we read this strategy. Much. You know. Do. The conditions on the ground are out running our strategies. At the rate that they're being implemented, and so you know that's what i'd like to push further for and Jay has great insight into this stuff because, as he said he's been engaged in it, and so I like the idea of talking to Jason more and.

[91:18] and getting him off the record, so to speak, just you know, give us the inside view of why we are where we are exactly and why you know, and when we throw things out there, what he sees the hurdles for those ideas I like the idea of having that discussion, next time, and no or in November. Great. Do we have consensus I don't think we need to vote on it, but the zealot good direction. Nice great. Request Michael sorry, Sir, if anyone have any other suggestions or questions or things expect to be addressed to just email me before the next meeting.

[92:02] Okay yeah. well. Is that on mailing y'all want to tell you, I think. Smoke actually along those lines, I think jack was perfect in terms of you know. What you can come back and help us with but i'm also wondering, you know that there are some. You know examples of successes in the city that could be the closest thing that we can be looking at in terms what work well there. You know, like something like holiday, where there are family housing in their relatively you know close and effective when I was in the planning board and we had our chair. Bowman. He raved about that place or we went and we even had a meeting there and I could see what he was raving about. And so, why is it that we don't have more of this so i'm wondering if there's something that you can you know, maybe when you come back.

[93:00] Think about do I mean, is it really something to be raving about or now and then, if it is what other you know the things that could be replicated elsewhere or what their challenges will be for that that's it. Great point I mean that the other one that no one. thinks about why should I ride my bike by it all the time as well and Crete 10 homes really nice. Project nice boulder I think percent about 20 years ago and I believe its own leadership with deep friction, you know we've done some good things just haven't done those types of projects lately. Okay, so my proposal for part two, is we all bring. A few ideas about incentives regulations you know, whenever we think just to do a little research and we can have some open discussion about it, and maybe that'll.

[94:02] help shape, you know where we want to go with our whatever working group, whether it's five minutes and we went to breaking it down. And certainly be happy to follow up on some of these that Christopher recommended. But if everybody could bring something you know, three good ideas. From talking to people Internet whatever places you visited whatever it might be. Great right next set on. Maybe the next time. Great discussion by the way, thank you all. Okay now we're getting to that. middle income any discussion, we still have the attach proposal for many indigenous boat and.

[95:00] There are some specific areas that were highlighted for discussion, I believe. i'd love to have someone who worked on this comments, and so this is a little bit before my time, but i'm certainly i've been coming up to speed on it as we've talked about it in our meetings. In the a minute I just closed my whole. On that so. Mike I have a question, if I may. Absolutely well jack is looking so. Could we take a step back, I did watch I missed the last meeting, but I did watch it. Can we take a step back and just somebody give me a high level view of what this where this document came from exactly what what is the what is the ask and reviewing this document, there was nothing that prefaced it. And then there was some attachments or like code. supplementing the proposal, so I was just, I just wanted to take a step back for a second and understand what what we're looking at here and what what's being asked and just.

[96:09] Show are just jumping. loops like okay um yeah Juliet so. The the ask essentially is, I suppose, just it's kind of been verbal over the last few meetings but is that we. include mobile units. Within our definition of at us and others, right now, or at us are limited to fixed foundation. and Which in a lot of ways we look at it, as kind of an arbitrary situation that again is based kind of on the grocery shelves with kind of what we've done, we have a code that handles them in certain ways and so. And the rationale behind it, is that if we allow movable units at us.

[97:08] It just provides one more the well, it provides one more way for us to increase the number of a use within the city and to try to get to that percentage, you know that that we're looking for with at us. And the the the benefit specifically a movable at us is that there's also an ownership component to it and there's also a kind of temporal component to it that are both beneficial to people so, on the one hand, the costs. To a homeowner are much lower if they simply need to provide a pad for that unit on their land. versus spending $200,000 to build an accessory dwelling unit that's detached let's say in their yard.

[98:02] The other pieces you brought by the person who owns the at you, who owns that mobile unit, so they may already own it, they can then find a homeowner who wants to have them park it on their path, and you can kind of decrease the cost for Homeowners and you. provide an ownership, although you know, there are always questions about that, but at the end of the day, somebody who can own their own house and can then move it from place to place as they need to or choose to. Job i'm sorry I did you write this. I guess that was the question, so I put who. Is this committee or where did this come from, I wrote. I wrote this I mean. There have been a couple of us who have been talking about it and Terry. And I have been talking about at us and trying to increase numbers of at us, but at the end of the day, the mobile piece of that discussion came down to me, so I put it together for the most part Juliet it is pulled from other jurisdictions, which have already.

[99:18] put this in place, and those are those attached documents that you're seeing in there, so their jurisdictions that have already put it in place, and I put those in there, just so you could see some of the different. kind of requirements and pieces that they were looking at just as food for thought, if we were going to put this in place what kinds of things do we want to consider regarding it. So. got it. yeah I just. I just didn't know where it came with WHO, the authors were and and then the supplements looked like they were from California Los Angeles and. las Gray. yea, though, which are very different geographies and climate, and they have earthquakes There we have, whatever the heck we have crazy wind storms here so.

[100:08] yeah true. But through those who can kind of see I think more than because those are kind of building considerations. From a wreck code structure. I think the things that are more valuable to see in those are, for instance, like I did highlight the 400 square feet. Well, a lot of them have picked 400 square feet as the number that they've used for the maximum size of one of these units. It seems to me like that's probably a place that we would, if we were going to look at this we'd want to have discussion. Well, why 400 square feet does that actually make sense is that something that's acceptable the people you know those are pretty big units at the end of the day, 400 square feet from the mobile ad you perspective so. You know I think it's more along those lines than the structural implications of construction.

[101:07] Those those pieces already handled in the code and that's one of the main things that i'm getting at here Julia with this is that when you look at our different pieces of code, both between the mobile. or manufactured housing codes and requirements that are in place, and you look at the irc the international. residential code. We cover pretty much everything that needs to be covered, as far as the building and construction and safety standards they're already in there, I think there's again pieces to be talked about especially around fire and he grass and sprinklers. And how those things would work or details that would would need to get kind of discussed further. But the basic idea here is, why do we limit these units to fixed foundations.

[102:03] What. you're asking I guess is your ask the board to adopt this as a board request of counsel. At this point, the ask is essentially does the board think that this is something that is worth pursuing and that we should. package up in such a way, and then put a proposal to counsel, in other words, should we. proceed with adding more mobile at us are movable at us to the at you can't in the city of boulder. And this kind of outlines how. What that would look like. If we were to do that. Great. Exact you, in your opinion, this is something we would entertain a motion on this evening, or we need to have a lot more discussion.

[103:00] About deals. I think. I was hoping tonight, I think, to kind of entertain people's concerns and questions around it, and if we got to a point where it seemed like a motion to. to entertain this and say Okay, the board could could take this up, and we can kind of try to put this together as a proposal and a recommendation to counsel then. You know i'd be happy to go there, obviously, but really I wanted to put this out, so people could digest it somewhat and then we could have discussion about some of these points. And you know. So yeah that's where I was for for this evening on this. that's great i'm this issue precedes me a little bit so it's really helpful to have you put it that way Danny you have your hand up. yeah I guess i'm on that note just getting started, so I have a couple general comments and then and then some specific reflection here, so I read through everything.

[104:10] Pretty thoroughly here and and I think a jocko and thank you. Our really thank you because I think it was a great first step and there's a lot of good concepts in there and and you know it's pretty clear you read through like the pretty complex, you know Los Angeles at you provisions and took a lot of the really good things out of there. I think this is absolutely something we can do, I think that we've gotten very far down this road it's something that we've been. Talking about pretty consistently since that listening session, which was back in 2019 I believe it's all a little bit lower now, but you know i'm just to give my kind of initial array of. comments or thoughts and maybe we can do is is send these all in writing to but. The first is that i'd say in terms of size.

[105:05] You know, and he had 400 square feet that was one of the highlighted sections there and i'd say you know, whatever size, you know, we have some natural limitations just based off of. You know the the public highway. Size constraints, etc, I know, La was 430 feet i'd say as big as we can make it, that would be terrific The other thing that i'd say is. i've seen in different communities and, sometimes, these are actually really high end there's there's a mobile unit community and breckenridge is one of the most expensive in the nation and it's actually really, really expensive, which is shocked. or going for but. Now, exactly, but so that's one of the things we can talk about, but one of the things that possibly a homeowner could even do is there's something called like a Colorado room. Where it's a room that attaches to the mobile unit and i'd be all for even something like that in terms of enhancing.

[106:06] The potential experience on this as something that we could allow they're just like these little they're kind of like an East coast style covered that kind of thing that you can attach. And it provides living space, particularly in warmer climates, or you know warmer seasons, so that would just be another thing that it throw out there um I think that. In terms of the rental license I think absolutely you know we can wrap that into the the rental license provisions that we already having the code I think that's a really good idea and a good suggestion. In terms of. You know the location I probably say, generally speaking, what we probably want to try to do, and this is just based off different. Draft and different landis' codes over the years is try to keep it out of the front setback, possibly even out of the side setback, but I think that one's not as much of a concern.

[107:03] The front setback usually is where you're going to get a lot of pushback from these things, and so that would be something that I would suggest based off some of the comments that you had on that one. Danny Danny can I interrupt for a second just as a quick clarification on that when you're saying setback, are you just talking about the front yard, or you talk, I mean, because we would be obviously not allowed to put these in the setbacks themselves. yeah so i'm. Talking front yard. kind of talking to the yard yeah right. You know right limited. Those two things don't enjoy and usually the way the way a lot of codes work is you know the yard front yard is based off of the front plane of the front of the House. You know yeah author friends back. But you know, and maybe we could have something that says unless. thoroughly screen or whatever, but you know that would just be something to be that always carries a lot of flack when you have that just. From Brighton okay. um.

[108:00] I just got a few more. yeah one of the things yeah we talked about when loads and and. earthquakes, but I think one of the things that we have in Colorado that we want my address is snow loads because, especially if these were mobile I think yeah. not quite as much as in past years but snow can still be a big thing and i've certainly seen buildings collapsed because of that. In terms of the energy codes, the one thing I just flag on, that is, you know, particularly in Community like believer that energy codes are are. You know more assertive and and more progressive it ends up being very costly and so that's one of the things you know you had that section in there about. Having something comply with all the energy codes, maybe there's some way, we can kind of fine tune that because you know, like hers ratings and stuff like that can be incredibly costly and especially if people are moving into this Community so that's just a thought I had on that one. In terms of four people in one of these units I just it seems real tight, but I grew up in a.

[109:06] 500 square foot apartment for a family of five so it can be done, but just something to think about um We absolutely I absolutely think we want to not only limit the short term. lodging rental the unit, but if there's some way also say the short term rental of the space or the pad that the person's building right. Right, and I think that and that that's that's my last comment on that one you know, one of the things that I think here i'm. not sure exactly the full extent, so you know part of me if i'm missing on this, but in terms of a the US to that we want to make sure that these are. rented the people who live in work in the Community and even not just like you know. Again, going back to like that breckinridge one yellow snowbirds who might say, oh come on live in boulder for a month, then will you know that will pop up pop up the records and then out to.

[110:05] tucson or whatever it may be, you know we're really trying to do the whole rationale here being to help assuage the pressures of. housing for the local community, I think, whatever kind of constraints, we can put on short term Rentals and on. The residents restrictions will both be really helpful and effective going forward so those are my Those are my initial comments I thought it was a. yeoman's effort, I really appreciate it and outlining it that way, and providing models like la was very helpful too, so I love it i'm 100% behind this I think it's it's an opportunity, you know now i'm coming on three whole year old past geez. past three years on. The Board hour or something like that, but i'm to see something where we had a listening session and it's kind of manifested into.

[111:00] Some sort of structured proposal or suggestion that we can try to at least you know chew through and get behind and and make recommendations on I think is a wonderful thing, so i'm. 100% behind it and whatever fine tuning i'd be happy to you know sit down and. Try to even work. we're fine tune with you, if we need to but. i'm grateful and i'm behind it so sorry to run I figured to just get it all out there. Well, thanks Danny for that and for all the kind of. Looking at the little details of it and that's exactly what i'm trying to look for and if we go forward, you know they're definitely looking for some help to dig into some of these things that you know more than I do have more experience around, so thank you. guys. So thanks Danny can can you guys hear me yes okay so hey jack I had a couple of. me this is not my area of expertise at us, but I have questions that I think might come up that if we had answers to the questions that I might anticipate being asked, and it would be helpful to perhaps have questions or answers to you sorry, you know what i'm trying to say.

[112:15] Okay, so. One is what would the site prep cost. The site prep for the pad and then also the sewer water and utility hookups per unit per. home. If we had an estimate on that, so that we would. A real estimate to know like what is it going to cost and then realistically what could a person lease out. That pad for what is the Roi on the pad and how is that helping the homeowner are they actually going to is it going to be feasible for them to build a proper pad and then rent it out over how many years what's the what's the you know the cash on cash return.

[113:03] And then. How many opportunities given all the zones that you've laid out here. exists within the city limits where you could actually put one of these things, so what is the full opportunity of the number of units if if you maxed out every site that you possibly could with a mobile ad what is that number. I know that's unrealistic that you get to that number, but what is the potential. And then. The the third question, or the fourth question I don't know what number i'm on is what objections, do you anticipate people having to this. yeah. yeah the objections piece, I definitely you know I have my own thoughts on it.

[114:00] And that I guess that's part of this discussion that i'm hoping to get also is, what are the you know and you've kind of I think you started to touch on some of those things. But what are the objections that pop up in our heads as a board as a starting place I am that are things that I haven't thought about. And so yeah I think that that's what i'm in this process that's what i'm trying to get to is to get to a place where we've we've you know done is deeper dive into as we can, when we've looked into those things. quick response Juliet you know the site prep. These don't need to be hard pads based on. Existing code regulations and there's they don't need to be poured concrete necessarily. I do know somebody who has put one of these in in the city. not legally, obviously, but they did do that, and I think they spent about $11,000 all in.

[115:08] Now they're not renting it out so Roi is and a consideration, which is also when we talk about Roi something to be considered that. I think one of the target zones, for these are potentially people who are looking for. necessarily a rental but they're looking for an expansion of space and living capability and the example I have of, that is, for instance. An elderly woman whose children live in town. And you know, in order to help her keep her place basically and stay in her home. they're like well can't we just you know move on to this huge lot and put an accessory unit here so they've done that they've done it illegally, you know so.

[116:04] So it's not always, I think I think the Roi discussion is very valuable for sure, but I don't think that that's always the lens that we would want to look at it through also and considering that so. And then you know sewer water utility costs, those are pretty easy to put together and i'll do that I haven't thrown together, yet the city, but yeah so i'm Jay, can I ask you a quick question. What would be the best way to go about juliet's. maximum potential for such units in those zones. and Because we have limitations, we have limitations on a huge right which would limit this and theron at us, so they fall within the saturation controls that kind of. And I did some analysis like that, because we got the same questions with the new ordinance back in 2018.

[117:05] yeah so I just did some basic okay there X number of. Lots in the zones where they're allowed and I did a couple of percentages okay well what, if only 1% at one of 10% or 20%. Just. rough numbers and that that would seem to be helpful, but the challenge is not everybody wants one of these. I mean you know. And this one, I would say even feel her because I would say it's even more of a niche than an EDU but but jock I mean he points out it's a much lower barrier of entry so it's possible, it could be more attractive than the huge capital. Yes. There are some tools that we can do to figure out. Well Jay along those lines, because I thought I remembered you doing that you've you have essentially done that analysis for at us and these would fall within the CAP.

[118:06] Of at us also so it's essentially the same number and Juliet I think that's the thing we're getting at it would just be. Like I don't know what our percentage now I can't remember at us at the total allowable is some percent, and this would be a way to maybe bump that up a point or two if we are lucky so that's that's kind of the concept of it is that we're just putting it under the umbrella of the you. And I can also view I mean to your other question Julian about you know what of concerns that we're going to hear. You know it's pretty well summarize the need you ordinance or that whole project. Because we did here all those concerns and I think the point jocks trying to make is that there really shouldn't be a difference between a mobile ad and a fixed foundation. we're just providing some are there is the potential of providing some additional flexibility.

[119:02] A lot of the objections love it, I think there are a few other pieces that concern people you know with these Juliet, I think, as you you'll notice that some of the ordinances require skirting around the bottom of the unit that's both a visual but it's also a. A structural benefits, so to speak, you don't get when uplift underneath the structure that way, and things like that so. I know that there are going to be some objections, I mean I think people will be concerned about you know. Moving them in and out of lots or that kind of stuff, so there are potential concerns, I think that are outside the regular at you. But I do agree with Jane most of those are probably similar to concerns about at us, in general, and so I think you're right that what are this the mobile specific concerns that we can come up with and getting answers was. jack I think Maybe it was Danny That said, you know you'd want this back, rather than the trend and seems like that would limit the potential to alley neighborhoods.

[120:16] Does that make sense to you. Well alley neighborhoods or you know a lot of times we have large locks that have plenty of side. area yeah. Right, so I don't know that. You know I I know of a particular lot that i'm working on building a legal at you right now, and it is you know they've got a 50 foot side yard. You know, between the House and the property line so there's there's room there within the setbacks. on the side of the House if you were going to put one there, so you know and that's kind of where I think a lot of these concerns about location. are already engaged with, but I do think that the main one, that we need to look into is the front yard I hesitate to say no front yards, because there are also situations where you've got 150 feet in the front yard.

[121:08] Right to the main structure and why you know, maybe it's something like we find a middle ground where a. Like at my house here, I have to have 55 feet from the front yard if i'm going to put a studio about the garage that i'm building. um you know which I have questions about in general, the zoning requirements for that. Because you can't even see 55 feet back on my lot but you know, but I think yeah there are considerations in that realm that would. definitely be questions that we would need to have good answers, for I think are. up on the orange the draft ordinance needs to be very specific about location and sighting. Or is that already covered by regulations that governor govern us in general.

[122:05] But I think that a lot of that is already, in other words, we already have coverage requirements. Right right we have FA our requirements. So those things would still apply here, we have our setback requirements all of those things are still going to apply to this, just as they do to an ad you have any sort. So really what it comes down to I think the real question here, which is probably the most difficult one, is a question of a statics and procedures statics of these of these units. And are we willing to say you can put one of these in your front yard, based on some other criteria that we put in place to typically for these. You know, but like I said, there are limiting structures already in place, so when we look at all those limiting structures we don't have that much more whoo.

[123:04] Okay Kevin. I would actually recommend. separating those issues, because I think you're going to get mired in controversy if. Because I think your your argument, the way I understand it, then what have has been saying and what we've done listening session is mobile ad you should be treated the same as fix found if we don't fix foundation aid us in the fresh air. So I think that would be a pretty significant change. And I think one that would be more difficult, it would be more difficult argument to make our. work. yeah and I think Jay, but we do allow them in the front yard, as long as they were overturned by the. Correct. Order large. i'm putting i'm putting one in my house So yes, we do. I just went through right Brian homes just tried to tell me I couldn't and I told him I.

[124:01] have to change that regulation and the next update and not just. You know, but, but I do agree with you, I think that the concept here is I do want to say we're treating these like retreating there and at you and that's really what we're doing here we're asking City Council to say we're not going to make a distinction about whether it's on wheels. or on fixed foundation. and visible from a public right away, and has to be the. phone that needs to look like it has a foundation basically needs to have that skirt. Right, it has that that skirt yeah yeah. hey did you ever hear. ya good. I guess I guess um, so I think it's a great idea to just say you know we can have mitigation elements in place or something like that, so you don't for.

[125:00] You know, completely for everything in the front yard, but you know you talk about how you can resolve that aesthetic concern going forward right if there's enough screening. Whatever it may be, if it's a large enough slot so on so forth, if there's adequate access all those things, and the other thing I just say why why I think this is. Potentially really useful, you know, particularly over the passage of time, so. When I was at the county attorney's office we I was responsible for doing the code enforcement on illegal accessory apartments and we had. hundreds, thousands of illegal accessory apartments we had about no exaggeration, I think it was something like 15 legal want and. The big obstacle is that everybody wanted to have an accessory apartment, particularly when things get expensive for a lot of local people. But it's the the the fiscal obstacle to getting those accessories apartments so this may or may not work and a lot of it's going to have to depend on you know the.

[126:04] The aesthetics, of the mobile units and how we have people learn to appreciate that we're not talking about some backing up a pickup truck and you know parking it on a pad and stuff like that, but if you get past that the whole notion of having people. Given given residents, an opportunity to be legally compliant with at us without the huge cost barrier to those to that legal compliance is just something that. always has a lot of promise and i've seen that from experience and so that's why I think you know it'll probably take a while for this thing to just stay to be embraced and stuff like that, but it can be a really good means of. You know, helping that grow or the future and anything we could do to get more roofs for more people is something I think we should be exploring so that's that's my thought on, I just wanted to just have that. And I just want to jump in because Danny landed on an important point there, which is you know backing a pickup truck in or something of that sort, so there's two pieces to this.

[127:10] When you look through what any of these other municipalities have done is there's also a requirement that these are meeting the manufactured housing standards. Right So these are specifically not just any old unit or any old piece of whatever that gets wheeled in and set down there is already a raft of regulatory. Compliance structure around these year that's that's in place, both from the state level as far as what can move across the roads. And then, of course, also just from the you know we're also layering into that some of our own requirements, you know and irc requirements, and you know they it becomes doable because we we brought appendix Q and so that allows some you know more room for what's a habitable structure.

[128:12] So it's kind of a it's it's a marriage of those two kind of code rounds that allow this to happen, and as you can see, I mean. that's that's one of the big reasons, do I know, for instance, what you're saying well it's California, but the regulatory structures to make it happen are actually already in place, basically. And we just have to acknowledge them as at us from the zoning perspective is the biggest hurdle that there. Are. Two things. Where have you seen this done successfully. You know where it's really had a positive impact on the housing supply for affordability and what can a homeowner expect to get back and ran for their same potential $11,000 investment which is, I think so i'm doing it earlier.

[129:12] So I think the first question that you have Michael it's too early, I mean, in other words what we're looking at here is adopting strategies that don't have a track record yet. And that's part of what we're doing we're we're going out, I mean I can't give you data that says Oh, I mean maybe we will, by the time this is ready, but you can see, these are all fairly new. New ordinance has been put in place other places, so I don't know that we have the data yet to tell us how successful it is or isn't. You know, and so I think that's kind of where we stand on that one. But again. What else whatever success we have is moving the Needle, on at us.

[130:00] and increasing that number that we've said, we want to get to a certain point, you know within the city so. You know I would say that, from that perspective. If we get 10 of them if we get 50 of them it's a success right because we're moving that needle somewhat. And my gut feeling is just from. Even my community of people that I don't talk to us that will probably find that we get. quite a bit more interested in that. So that's the answer the first piece, and then. hit me with your second piece again because. If you own the pan, what do you charge for rent. Oh, so if you if you own so there's a couple models here right there one model is you just own the pad the other model is that you own the entire unit, also as a homeowner you could do that as well, so yeah there's a couple of different models, you can look at.

[131:03] Since you're asking that question, I thought that I had included, but maybe I did not, there was some analysis of Roi that I have come across for people looking at it so i'll put that together and send it back out to you guys. That kind of looked at the costs to the rents that could be charged for that, and I think in general, what I recall seeing was for a pad as short as a two year or July timeframe and bringing in something like 400 bucks to 500 bucks for rental that tab. Right so somebody who has their own unit and they bring it in and place it on that pad that was kind of the numbers that were being thrown around for that obviously that's going to be market based to right so right, we will learn what boulder supports for that.

[132:02] was good. But yeah but i'll put that i'll put that information because I did have some some numbers and i'll put that in there i'll add it to your file. Okay well i'm interested time have proposed some next steps. seems pretty clear we don't we're not ready to vote on this she decided and how we want to make friendly amendments to jocks work. Whether that's. You want to make suggestion now email them to him go over them at the next meeting. deciding whether we're ready for the recommendation at that point. When possible course. um you know, Michael is ice, as I see this, I think that it would be great what you're proposing is that people can anybody who hasn't given me. Or if you come up with other questions that you want kind of fleshed out a little bit more send those to me, so I can dig into them before our next meeting and and get answers to it.

[133:12] And then, all all work on kind of starting to craft this into an actual. recommendation. Okay, we could then have a motion on to say yes let's move forward with this and try to you know hide it up, because I think there are a number of steps still to be taken in here. Before I would feel comfortable putting it out as a recommendation to Council as far as engaging with staff engaging you know. Both in housing, but also in planning. The the fire department needs to be brought in on this as well, so there's there's a number of steps before i'd actually feel comfortable saying that we have something ready to go.

[134:02] At this point, I mean my thought was either you know by the next meeting, if we could say okay let's put that effort into it. and start to cross the t's and dot the i's. So you throw me questions before next meeting, then maybe after next meeting, we can say yeah go ahead and all right next week. I do you think maybe a voter show a hands and. You know, formal informal or. Just this is something that we want to proceed on before would say more work into it. would probably be a good idea, so that would be my suggestion is we just say we feel comfortable moving forward this approach and then you know we can all try to help out and whatever way jock like I said, you know be glad to. yeah well yeah I think straw polls, a great idea, right now, everybody. thinks you. Are gonna. retract. netflix they'll be a crash. Can I make a quick suggestion, though, before you sort of do that.

[135:03] I think what would make the full board the most comfortable is if there if we identify where. There are policy choices potentially so like you know you throw out a number 400 square feet, I assume that's from Appendix Q. So, providing some sort of policy basis for where that number came from like similarly with the zoning you know why why those things you know are their options for other zones, what are the benefits, I think that's the type of. Information that's helpful to policy decision makers is understanding are their options, what are the options and what are the benefits, so instead of just saying this is our proposal, I think, if you build in a little more fidelity it just more appetizing. yeah. Just a draft amendments gotta bendix logic.

[136:00] yeah well. You know, we just want to know if we even want to move forward. Exactly, I just want to know if I spend more time on this. right or not, and then you know if we take it one more step, I think that next step would be the peace. You know if there are specific questions that you have that you send to me before then we can deal with it before but. A lot of these issues like you know as you're saying like what is the policy basis for saying 400 vs 200. Or you know Danny saying why aren't we doing for 30 and so kind of where we land there now a lot of that is going to end up coming down to politics, but we as Jay says, I would look at. Like if we said okay we're going to go forward with this, I unless i'm missing that Jay. That seems to be the point, or we would say okay let's dig into those pieces now. and get our justification for the recommendation that we're going to make. raised on what's out there. Just using that example is and or their external factors are dictated like it's going to be emphasized, to move on a highway and.

[137:08] There are. yeah yeah yeah, as I say, there's a lot of structures already limiting those things, but, for instance. Could they come in into pieces, I have a tiny home on or a mobile ad you they comes into two pieces and they can travel across the highway is that what we're talking about, or are we not, and so I think there, there is a lot of discussion and like I said, you know that's. kind of in the middle ground of On one hand it's. grounding it in the existing kind of code structures that are there. And on the other hand, it comes out saying well you know I like jays thing it's like well if it's an ad you it's nice to you and asked to live by those rules, but is there some reason that we'd want to limit it more, and you know i'd say let's just say if it's an ad use an ad you.

[138:02] But you can see that many. Many jurisdictions have limited at the size of it. To some, some number. So that's just a discussion that will have to have and and. and see where we land on it. Okay, well, respecting the work that jack has already put into this let's do the straw poll approach shall. observe that this isn't a innovative it's not based on trying to replicate something done successfully elsewhere, nothing wrong information but we're like set it grew out of a listening session to grow organically and of the work of pants jackets, but a lot of time to do it. If it's got potential, so if we would like, in shock and it'd be worth nothing else in this has all been huge. I think this piece has been pretty much me.

[139:01] And it was because of what you do you're very well suited. To. Addressing the technical issues around this so appreciate it. raises. Your hand, should we keep going and taking a look at this issue next month. Well i'll say yeah. I see. three. you'd like to keep going. We have Terry. Not jack i'm on the fence, you know I agree with 95% of everything that you say, but i'm just not on the agu mobile bandwagon yet i'm just not there. I need. I need I don't know I don't know what I need I need something. send me send me your questions. Okay. in mind that about it.

[140:01] i'm on the fence, can you abstain, I don't know what's the proper term I just not there yet i'm not there. Okay. Julia thank. You, I just have a lot I just had a lot. of questions. it's, not that I necessarily object out right I. feel like Terry i'm on the fence and I feel like I I hesitate, because I know how much time you spent on the shock already and so to get you know, to get deeper along and look what is the benefit to the Community at the end of the day. What are we going to get out of this, what is it going to. require a staffs time to actually put this ordinance in place and the fire department and Is this something that's critically important to move the needle. Is it just one little piece that's important and the cumulative effect of additional housing is good enough, or is it distracting us from other things we should be focusing on or is it something else I don't know so and i'm not i'm not trying to be difficult i'm just trying to.

[141:02] I want to. be mindful of how much time you've spent into this and I don't want to. well. yeah yeah and I. I understand that I understand that a concern of how much benefit will we get based on I think one of the things that's interesting about this. Is there's not that much work to be done and that's why I included these other elements it's essentially been laid out as to how you structure this and we, I think, as a horde would have to tweak certain details. on it. There are That said, though, there are some pieces that I think would make it much more effective if we can get. David lowery at the fire departments buy in on it and i've had discussions with him and I think he recognizes, you know, for instance at user required to be sprinkled. Well what's the purpose of sprinkling a unit that's only 200 or 400 square feet, there really is no purpose from the fire perspective.

[142:07] Because egress is so fast a and because the firefighters never have to enter the building to fight the fire basically so anyway there's there are things to be discussed in that realm of my point would be. It is a small piece of the puzzle, but I think what we tend to lose sight of in our approach to housing is that unless we're seeing a big positive game, we want these big bites out of it. Then. it's probably you know we have to be willing to go into places where we're not getting big bites we're not going to slay the dragon of housing by finding a silver bullet and I think that one of the things that we unfortunately default to too often is.

[143:00] Not taking smaller steps, in other words. The question I kind of flipped back on you, is why would we not allow a mobile ad. And that's kind of the question I have for the board, why would we not do this, in other words you have a you have a valid point there Juliet I think that is one of the reasons is they're just too much burden on staff. That it's not worth doing and I think that's totally valid thing to kind of consider and look at um but from other perspectives, why would we not do this. If it's going to add a to us to the next we're not hitting our numbers, so I kind of flip it that way on its head and in and say why why shouldn't we do this if somebody can put one of these on their property and they can therefore stay in their home that they've lived in for 50 years. Why are we saying you can't do this what's the rationale for saying no to those people.

[144:04] And I think that's, the question we have to be asking ourselves around a lot of our housing questions, why are we telling people no. Because there's a lot of good solutions that we don't engage with that are out there for us, and this is just one small example of it. But we're we're telling people no you can't live in your home anymore we're trying to protect middle income, housing, but we're not putting tools in place that will help people do it, and this one, you know. The ordinance is basically already been written in X number of jurisdictions and they've been through all the questions they've been through the fire department they've been through X y&z already because those codes are. To a large degree. Their national or international in origin and scope. And so you know most of those details that are out there already actually dealt with so it's not a huge lift, I would say, and.

[145:03] You know, we can talk to Jay more and i'll talk to planning department about it also. Like I like to say there's 1000 thousand yeses and one know. pass it out for the one mil so. That would be my My hope is that we just say let's dig in a little bit farther and we're not saying right now we're going to. Put anything to counsel, but I would say let's let's try to come up with those nose and then see if there are workarounds and if they're reasonable and if there are then yeah I agree we shall but it's not worth it. Thank you. And I agree that. You know, really 52% solutions, I have a goal or not, you know when they went, and I appreciate the time you spend to do it, given that we didn't get you know, a consensus on hands there, I would like to request emotion and whether we want to continue to pursue that.

[146:09] and But. hold on. Sorry. I just I think we should actually. didn't. get one just yes or no, do we keep going on this and. What do we have to have to keep going how many yes folks because it's what three to two right now with. free to do yeah. So let's keep going right along. Well, we emerged on yet i'm saying. We didn't have to touch us, I think we should actually voted on it. Oh, I see I see what you're saying. Okay. And can I just tell just a little bit of, from my perspective, I mean what jocks doing is great he's basically. giving you something of substance to react to you right, but the Highlands role here is to humans Council that this is a good idea right because it's only Council, they can say staff go and make these changes.

[147:10] Right. You don't have to figure out all the little details, there have to be some sort of public process to work those have will be involved planning board of the evolved Council of Community will be involved is it's really advising Council on the policies. That might be. yeah on that note as Council ever talked about this in recent history. um no I mean that. But I think. Like I said I mean, from my perspective, this is a great had story of we had a listening session, this is what we heard from me, and this is a potential solution. And I just I don't think they're aware of it as an option.

[148:02] To be perfectly honest. But I think there would be interest. In my opinion. it's good to an earlier discussion we had about our role, probably at the retreat and what there, we only do it Council asked us to do or do we come up with new ideas that some on the Council. I think if we wait around for Council SS but things were be twiddling our thumbs Aleppo in a. Good approach. again. And we definitely have support based on a straw poll, to continue to a site and whether people feel better about it better about it, if we formalized it and actually voted on moving forward. So i'd like to move it out, I think there's some meat on his phone, just like Jay said, I mean I had no idea about anything with mobile ad us. and mobile tiny homes until we have that listen session so I learned from there, I would have never thought of any of this before then either, so I like to move that we.

[149:06] Support moving forward on exploratory basis to try to put together some sort of strategy that also includes some policy connections like bait Jay talked about and and that's not committing us to anything as long motion it's not committed as right now, except to. You know explore it, so I just say I move we continue exploring at this point in time and being open to the idea of having this as a recommendation Council. We have a second looks like terry's a second. record called about i'll add that I agree, I have some skepticism about this, but I, I do think it's worth moving forward and exploring with more research, a little more research, a little more discussion so all in favor say Aye. Aye. Motion passes oh my gosh anonymously wow.

[150:01] yeah thanks everybody. Thank you. Michael, can I just one. last piece, for you know. Everybody on the board is like. get me those doubts. so that I can see their what i'm missing or that I can. give you some kind of. resolution to them. And I see your eyebrows go up it's very well, I know you got it. i'm trying to get there. yeah well. I just. want to go. I am. I just have a question jack, and this is kind of a sensitive thing, but this is all something that we had to sort of. Think about as we were joining this board and you're in the building industry would there be any kind of perception of a conflict because you're you would be you or a perception that you would benefit from the passage of such.

[151:09] of it or put trying to push something like this through and i'm saying it just because you know that that could that come up or not not really. it's not really. realm I think I think not really sadly most of my business comes from milk building massive second homes for. People. who live in and out of the year. So, but, but the other piece of that Julia that's kind of tongue in cheek, obviously, but the other piece of that is. The truth is what this does is it allows people to build their not to build their own units, but most of these companies are kind of external to the. The general contractor or builder on the ground, in other words it's not something that the general contractor is going to be building because they probably won't.

[152:02] even be able to meet the requirements of building that structure that needs to path travel on the on the roads and on the highways, so there are specific companies, so I i'd say kind of from all fronts. Other than the fact that, yes, I build things for people to live in no there's really not any any overlap there you know. Unless you're looking for a one to $10,000 contracts to build. And, and I would say, nobody had you know and and Julia to that that did not come up when we talked about at us which arguably would be more in my bailiwick I do build people's at us for them. That are fixed foundation, so that you know, but no I don't I don't think that's something that'll that'll come up. Good I. Just think we always something we should be mindful of. It I agree. yeah yeah I actually had thought about that myself, too, because I always get a little uncomfortable with a lot of these discussions, you know because I build houses. And I try to build housing and you know Terry does the same, and so you know it's it's definitely it's definitely something to be aware of, I agree.

[153:09] Right well it's good point I think everybody on this board have some connection to the real estate industry, if you will, so we all need to be careful and thoughtful about that. Can we move on to the next agenda item. selfishly report I haven't had dinner i'm really starving, I hope you just really loved the letter we could just wrap up but let's talk about the letter. To get please. So i'm Michael i'm happy to if you send this to me in word i'm happy to just. Read line it red line like put in track changes and put my comments it back to you if you want to do it that way, I had, I mean I thought it was I thought it was good, and I just had some comments and word smithing and things like that. yeah um What about a Google Doc because i'm already thinking of revisions I would personally make based on some of the things we've talked about tonight, so the Google Doc we could all be contributing rather than doing it seriously.

[154:11] Very my goal my have to say no to that one. Okay okay. Jason you like having a meeting. Ah, in public. it's fine for you, for each person to send Michael comments individually, and you can incorporate them. Okay. I mean you just want to avoid the whole perception that you're kind of doing stuff. behind that. same as a as a as a group meeting man okay. Great. And if you're more comfortable I mean you can always use me as an intermediary, but I think I don't think it's an issue you just don't want it back and forth between the entire board to discuss this between meetings as well. So what you want to do is send Michael your comments. that's fine if you want to send out the word document Michael and people can mark it up and send it back to you.

[155:04] But. They don't already have that. know. Okay it's in PDF. Is everyone comfortable with that approach, or do you want to talk about it. I think what Julie, I suggest, is a great approach, I think you know in past years, this did end up being kind of a. work in progress and that's what I was saying, this could be something we shoot to have finalized in November, because we really don't need it until the end of the year anyhow, and so. um I think that would be a really effective approach you know, unfortunately can't use Google docs will try to keep our comments as limited as we can, but use red line and just go from there, I think, is probably. yeah I take. move forward on the letter. You know we're best for me if you don't mind when it began actual markup that I could go, I mean not a digital market but, like a sprawled in the margins markup and I could you know, maybe, accompanied by some separate comments.

[156:05] is just gets really confusing when you're dealing with five red lines and the market mode. i'm good with that okay. Great that. Just to clarify so i'm not sending the word document. No, please do. send it. To. You are you going to use the comments the. Underlying strike through features and send it back to Michael what does it sound like Michael just asked you to scribble on paper. yeah but still I just rather have the word document and i'll use a marker or whatever, but I still have the word document. Oh yeah absolutely no problem. My editing style. My handwriting is terrible Michael so what I would. Do is I would I would put my type my comments into the document. On the side.

[157:00] And PDF and send it back to you. That that works that's great. You know I love the idea of trying to interpret the handwriting right it's not so great either, but sure. Okay, thank you. So Jane I talked about the next item six, a little bit and. I really well, obviously we should have remember meeting we just outline all bunch of things we want to. Continue or get started on the question is when because there is a thanksgiving. interruption. So let me pull up the calendar. i'm sorry next month October we're fine. But, looking ahead, we, I think we should having a member meeting, we have a lot to. lot to chew on here. People feel about that.

[158:03] yeah I think we, I think we want to have a meeting um maybe just the week before thanksgiving sounds like it'd be good for us if we're not going to have a December meeting, we can always do the week after right. works for me. So can I make a suggestion for the group so we would just need emotion, to move the dates of the November and December meetings. To week early. So, moving. And then the next step, I would recommend waiting until October even November to cancel the December meeting depending on where you work. Right. Now, keep in mind. I agree. has been passed practice. gotcha before we get that emotion, but just discuss those two approaches Danny recommended one more be. moving up the November meeting I think we'd be November 17. And the other one would be having it is early in December as possible, which would be December 1.

[159:07] Was anyone generally looking at their calendars have any preference in that regard. I think the 17th is great. I will. 1717 says good. Good before the holidays that's probably a good idea, we need emotion, are you saying we waste next month and make that motion okay. i'm saying reschedule both the vendor. To one week exactly earlier. Okay. Can we get emotion on that. Some of. emotion to reschedule to combine our remember to seven meetings into one meeting in November 17 dessert second no.

[160:05] i'm sorry I misunderstood. I can i'll try it. yeah yeah. Well i'll make a motion to move the November and December meetings for by one week so November meeting would be this would be November 17 and the December meeting somebody helped me would be December. 15. It teams. Now we're talking. junk on it. We got a second. All in favor of jack's motion. I right. Okay. yeah in Korea will send an updated meeting requests to all of you probably within the next week, just so you have.

[161:01] Great. Okay, Adam seven is debrief meeting any thoughts about tonight's meeting. Something we may pass over. Anything you want to add to your earlier conversations. I think that that. Presentation by Chris earlier was so good. But yet so frustrating because there's just not a good answer. kind of like climate change. yeah exactly and shock, I really want to get behind mobile EDU so we'll get there. yeah thanks Terry and I just want to say. I appreciate everybody engaging with it and. I mean, this is the process that we want to go through to figure out what we're going to do, and not do so, you know part of this for me was just getting this on the table as a small slice and then kind of.

[162:12] chewing on something a little bit and seeing if we can you know either spit it out or swallow it so i'm i'm good with all the comments that came and all the concerns and I look forward to seeing more of them and and then we'll see if we push out it further. So thanks for that. Excellent Okay, so our cover meeting is Wednesday October 27 that's a correct. yeah so great. I think we have some. agenda items will be easy to digest and. Right now. additional questions, let us know. Mass for a motion to adjourn.

[163:03] So moved. Second. Your emotion. Okay, all in favor. Great Thank you there we really got a lot of meaning appreciate everyone's comments and look forward to moving forward and some of these issues. Michael great job, thank you for an x. Ray Scott, thank you guys. Thanks everybody. Thanks everyone. good night everybody.