September 27, 2023 — Boulder Arts Commission Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:11] Chris is not joining us, Jeffrey. Also something. Yeah. alright. So our first matter is the result of the agenda which everybody files in front of them. I'll move to approve. Maria's made a motion to approve the event. All in favor approved unanimously. and then our second matter is to approve. Nope. Our second matter is, I'm gonna read the land, acknowledge the city of Boulder, acknowledges the city, is on ancestral homelands and unseen, unseeded territory of indigenous peoples who have traversed lived in and Stuarted lands in the Boulder Valley since time immemorial.

[1:03] Those indigenous nations include the Apache, Arapaho. Cheyenne. Comanche. Honey. Shoshone. Sue, unmute. The city of Boulder, recognizes that those now living and working on these incest ancestral lands have a responsibility to acknowledge and address the past. and must work to build a more just future move on to approval of the August. We have already an option item on that. No, we talked about it at at our last meeting with Matt. I don't have any updates yet. I'm still working on it. So I think you're still working on it. I want to move that forward. Okay? And what we're talking about is just if we can

[2:02] come up with some more meetings. Call to action on the land acknowledgement. rather than just kind of sitting here and nodding and going. Is that a nice thought? Let's move on. Is that it? So? We are working on that. And all right. Approval of the August meeting. Minute. Anybody have a discussion or would like to make a motion. I'll make the motion. So yeah, with one. Okay, one collection. All right. We have a motion to approve the meeting minutes with one correction, all in favor. We're in. Oh, proof. Yeah.

[3:01] public participation. So we do have just one person signed up. Okay. floor is yours. please. Well, I hope you all read my letter, and I hope that it brought to clarity, and I know that I'm not pull over anyone's eyes. I'm not trying to say I am black. You know we're trying to. and I pretty much explained what I wanted to say in my life. But I also want to say. after looking into becoming less on business. we definitely are not going to go that route. It is arguably. and we do every year, you know. And there's I'm not even gonna try to. you know. 35 through the government.

[4:04] Whether or not I not. I see that right? Started talking. found it on my phone. So I didn't really need that requires talking. I would do.

[5:07] supporting our family. One. and we are two-thirds who died with black people. and like I said, I put it in parentheses. My husband and my daughter, you know, I mean I wasn't I. I wasn't trying to say that we have government participation. And as you thought, 2 weeks after I submitted, the guys, I went right through the room about verification and learn more about it. And that's where I learned about 51%, and you know. and as soon as I submitted the application, it was off my plate. I'm busy. I have other things, and it was just like, Let's see what happens. And I didn't give it another thought, you know, and I forgot that I had even inserted that in the one laundry list, of what kind of reasons I am my aunt and my nephew, my niece, came to visit right after that, and then, right after that, I was back here with you guys, and so like I would see that I

[6:10] you know I didn't even know what you were talking about. I had to go home and wait for that day and watch the meeting, and then here you are. her being a leader in this house. So you know I I'm sorry, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone, or you know I apologize for now. did you say that you didn't want her as a leader? I've heard a whole bunch of people considering like. sure I didn't know that doesn't sound like anything that anyone in this group. Whatever say. I definitely understand that you may have heard that. and that that would hurt your feelings, and it would hurt my feelings.

[7:01] and I just it never should have been written on the application. Black Woman owns you are not a black woman. but I didn't say it like that. You know. The way that I saw it written was black woman-owned business. so I'll go back and look at that, and maybe. anyway. And like I said after that meeting, that I have that cleared it up in my mind, like you know, as far as you're at it isn't, and how we recognize it. So I would never say that I was certified by the Government, or whatever not compliant. That's pretty. Why is that.

[8:01] Chris. we don't have discussion, I think. on evaluating the Internet in trying to understand your work. and I want to make it very clear that never a decision we're out of. Certainly not you. You're honest. Their discussion was very much about trying to work through the document in order to sort them. funding and reporting. And so we're gonna double check the application. Make sure it doesn't say that anywhere. and that would never require study. Cause, I remember. was very much around. What is it? There you go. so to answer your question. It is not a requirement, and it's actually right. Now. No city government

[9:04] requirements about black or that said want to find your viewing here? for my own part, but I think this is for everyone. not only that he applies that one. I on no one. Well, Andrew. but like I said, still all this regardless after that meeting there, I wouldn't have like written that on every thing. and I don't want to diminish. But say, I'm very glad. but I just want to say that

[10:04] that you need to come here to prove a back. That's something that I are the ones. Okay. Alright. go ahead. No folks. Okay. So I just want to let you know when I was reading your application. And I looked at your website. Your website is beautiful. I love that you have such diversity in the people that you're working with. And I think it's unfortunate that hmm! I don't know what you're the reason is that you would put that on your application like if you were trying to make it a stronger grant or something that is like. I just missed anyone to do a math you don't have to be. you know. You have to be a black woman to walk in here and qualify for the application you can be yourself. What you're doing is good. Yeah.

[11:09] thank you. I mean, I I know I know. founder, and very easy. Now. Why not? Why aren't you? You know? So. anyway, it was a bad move, and you know all those. and the timing when the other meeting and everything. I'm sorry I want to thank you also for coming in. Thank you very much. Thank you for sending the letter. I if I said something that is on the recording that made you feel like I was judging that, or or saying you shouldn't be a leader in the community. I apologize not my intention ever to have that come across. So I'm along with Matthew and I. I want to honor how that

[12:01] it has sat with you for the last month, and I'm sorry for that. If I had a part in that I do want to say that. I love what you're doing. I love that it's a unique art room, and that you're bringing it, and that your intention is to bring that too bolder as a community, as a destination for artists and and expertise. I love that. I'm a small business owner. I work with business owners all the time who have difficulty sort of cursing out well, how how it's treated on my taxes, and I'm paying my taxes with my husband, and like I'm a soul owned, and it's really kind of murky. We never really wrote it up, so I understand that mistakes get made, and it's unclear as to like who even owns my business. I don't know. We both get the money. We both pay the taxes on it. I understand. I at no point thought that it was an intentional to the Z. I think it was a misstep. It didn't factor into my voting, and it's like it

[13:03] didn't devalue the work that they're doing at all like at no point, any of us, I think. at all. We are working very well. Yeah. And II also myself never thought that there was a and I would say that II don't recall someone saying that like being a leader, but I would argue that it's too late, because you already are. I'm glad you came back. And I'm sorry. Franklin. Yeah. please. Good yours. Yeah, thank you.

[14:10] I'm really glad. Right, Lauren. Don't report us. So we have this evening. I'm just okay. So we have 2 reports this evening. and we'll start with the cat amounts. I have the reports and the follow-up report listed, and then what your options are, and then some motion language. So the first is the cat amounts. I do wanna note that you might have seen that they did not do part of the program, so they returned part of the funding so that you'll only be voting to approve the report and not the final 20 min. So this is just to say, yes program properly. And then we'll talk about people to ballet program. Follow up information that, you see, after that I would recommend it to start with. The cat amounts first to go through that process.

[15:07] So your options are for usual approval. Reports. Sorry, approve the individual report. postpone approval until you have any questions answered. And actually, those will be only 2, because there's not a 20%. So you can either approve it, or you can ask some questions. and I would have those. I guess there is. Approve it and ask questions. Yes, absolutely. Oh, yes, for me. I I'll make a motion to approve, and I have some comments to discuss during the discussion part you want me to sit. Thank you. Maria, you have discussion. Yeah, I just have a a couple of things, you know. Say, the the the ongoing I think the importance to bring the arts to helping young people express themselves. I think this did a wonderful job doing this, and I was really impressed

[16:09] that they pivoted the program to address issues related to Covid. And I think that was a really hard time for a lot of young people in school, and to help them express themselves. I think it struck me about. Maybe this is during the grants. Wondering about The flexibility of including more of this type of programming in ELLE. LA. Standards. and what part the Commission or the community might have in sort of infusing that into a broader conversation. So that was that parts a lot to vite off. But just a question for all of you. Perhaps you say the question again. I think that if I'm recalling how I read it. These are my notes. that they talked about ell ELA. Standards.

[17:05] the English language, arts, standards, and how there were some challenges of integrating some of that work into the Ela standards. That's why they didn't weren't able to work with the second school district or school. And so my question did I? Did I switch them? Perhaps. Did I switch it with the local theater? I think so. Cause they local theater is the one that had to replace one of their venues. Yes, I did switch them. Sorry. I was reading my notes quickly. But yes. right. Keeping your motion on the table. Yes, yes. I'll bring up that second part on the on the local theater. Then. Sorry about that. Everyone. I have a question for the staff.

[18:00] and I'll start with a comment. I thought that this program was great. Even you know, I loved how they pivoted. And I watched the video, and I had little earworms stuck in my head from those kids. Great? So the kids did a great job, and I loved that. It was, you know. Let's write the production, produce it, you know, perform it the whole thing really, really cool. So my question for the staff is from this entire. The entire scholarship was for $3,000. The actual cost that I'm seeing on their budget is for $3,100. And I miss that. They said. where where is the disconnect? They don't need the additional 20%. So they were only able to work with one school instead of 2. So in the original application they had applied to work with 2 schools.

[19:04] and because of, I think this is 2021. That this application or that this grant was awarded pretty much. Oh, sorry, Amanda And so they said, it's been super challenging over these years to get back to partner with the other school. You'd like to just fully add up. And they actually have already sent. You've already received the the remaining. the oversight. I think it's 600. 3,800. We've already received funds back for this. I see. Okay. thank you. That careers about okay, great. So I like that. They got money cost them as much as they thought. So they're returning the funds. That's a good idea. Let's agree. I think. Question Mark to Seth. All right. Anybody else have additional comment.

[20:03] I don't see Maria there. Insert. Oh, yeah. okay, let's and we have a quorum without it. So let's just move forward with the vote. She did say when she first started speaking up. She wanted to approve it. Yep. and and I'm just speaking very slowly. Let's take a vote once you can click on that launcher. Oh, let's see, I'm voting her. Now. Welcome back.

[21:15] Question. Maria. You're on mute and we are taking a vote. Sorry about that multiple technical difficulties. Sorry about that. All right. It's representative cavalier. Oh, they are online. Okay? Great. So we're back to the boulder ballet. And at the dance program. This is a follow-up secondary follow-up. We do have Claudia here. The executive director and your options would be then approved. Reports approve the report, approve the report with questions or postpone approval. Meeting answers.

[22:06] Sorry to interrupt Georgia, I think. Oh, that's all sorry about that. Yeah, I'm not gonna vote, but I do want to hear it. Unfortunately, you'll have to log in from the other room to do that which I can. Alright. Is it on. Zoom. Yeah. I'll forward you to zoom great. Okay?

[23:00] So thank you for the reminder, Matt. well, so we did want to. Start the discussion with a reminder that you're talking specifically about this project grants and reports and not the other, like overlapping kind of Hr discussions that have been happening right? It's specifically about the follow up. if you have questions, we are able to. Okay, so let me back up. You can approve it for us, final 20%. You can approve it with questions. or we can send questions. And since Claudia is here, I think we could take a minute to spend meetings. Now, when we get asked Claudius. Let's see. I wasn't. Go ahead, Matt. Is there anything you want to add? Yes. thank you. I really appreciate the care and and I wanted to make sure that we point out that in in the follow-up report there are a couple of discrepancies.

[24:09] We've had some discussions internally about exactly what that means. We also shared that with the ballet, and they gave us a response. So the 2 things that we noticed in the Grant report that are important. The first is that both doors here. The first is that in the first page of their follow up report. There is a budget, and there's a line for teacher salary. And the actual reads 800 on the following page is documentation that says that that teacher pays 1,350. So that's a discrepancy that we noted And I'm just going to directly read from what the valuer? A. Okay? So that was my question directly noted to them. yeah, from the email, exhibit one is our accounting for both lines 8 and 10.

[25:03] So $1,340 represents $540 at $20 per hour in admin. and $800 in teaching at $40 an hour. $40 overage in line 10 by the ballet. Both these lines will process through accounting and combined as adaptive dance personnel 1,000. The second point that we noticed was that on a subscript page there is a mention of a studio rental charge of $35 an hour. where the document says that there were 20 classes. Our calculation shows that 20 classes an hour is $700. They're like they don't pay one said $800. And here's their response to that. This is an oversight error and should be $700. It's possible Jamie meant to include studio planning time for the grant, but as she is retired and I am taking this to the finish line.

[26:03] I will take responsibility for this being a math error. I truly apologize for mistake. Yeah. So Here's where we stand as from a staff perspective. Is that the the we noticed the errors and got the responses after the packet went out. but our recommendation remains the same. because we feel that. based on the criteria of the grant, the questions that were asked last time that that enough information has been received to indicate that project was executed, as it was stated in the application. You know there are obviously problems in how this was represented, and the conversation has blown those out, and we appreciate that very much. But our staff recommendations say the same that this be approved. or I'll I'll amend it a little bit that if you it also would be fine, because it was approved. Further question. If you still want information. So it is entirely your decision. The other 2 options are still in front of you, those being to reject

[27:07] the report or to postpone. It's approval until further questions. Granted. those are decisions you have to make. But I just want to like, make sure the framing is correct. Spent a lot of time digging into this. We've gotten a lot of information. It's up to you to decide if you're comfortable with the answers you received. If you have enough information to make your decision. But this decision should ultimately based on, did they execute the project that was representative? I have a process question for you, Matt. I know under router tools, we're normally taking a motion and seconding that and then having discussion where we're at. Okay, let's do that. So thank you for joining us. We have. Well, she's here. She's in the

[28:04] attendees, not in the panel section, so you know. Why don't we invite her? And if you actually have a question, but I have some questions. I'm sorry. And I apologize for not Claudia, who reacted. Yeah. okay, she's joining just to be able. Claudia. Thank you for being here. I keep speaking over awesome. Hello, everyone. Hi. I did have. Thank you for explaining those little nuances because I did see those. Also, I have one other question. Just if you can. just help me understand, is the tuition scholarships line the $5,000. I understand that that's potentially the the fee that would have been paid by the students. And then what did that? What did that go to on your end? Did that go toward paying Georgia and and marketing, or help me understand that?

[29:09] So tuition expenses it will go towards, you know, keeping the lights on. It goes towards general operating costs for running the organization in general. That's what tuition goes goes towards. Whenever we're collecting that perfect? Thank you. Does any. That's my question. Are there any questions from you? Does anybody want to make motion? I just have a comment. I think most of this is just how the information was presented. So I just I personally, I don't know if anyone else goes this way it would be. How can like, what can you do? Moving forward to make sure like this doesn't happen again, cause I think it's mostly just how it was presented. And there were not being enough details or enough notes or enough not taking on what each thing was going to. So how can we like tweak that whatever's being done. Now, how can we tweak that? So that in the future this does not happen.

[30:11] Thank you, Yale, for that. I appreciate that feedback. And and I think that that comes to me. You know. Jamie Adams has been a employee of the organization for a very long time, and has overseen the Grants for for a very long time, and through the transition with her retiring I can do a better job, having more oversight on how things are communicated. So I appreciate that. Matt. I have a question for you. Relating to a comment that you made earlier in the meeting about returning funds. I know that there's surplus on what they spent here. And what is the staff recommendation to the Commission on? We manage that. thank you. The there's no in the Grants program right now

[31:01] to acquire the return on Stephen. So just formally in the process, I think. the most that we can actually fewer requests that, requested guide. We find, and we'll move on right? So that's that's I would say. As a practice. I would be against requests making those Federal requests. and that's for a couple of reasons. I think the main. Me, too, heard that. First of all, we shouldn't be punishing organizations for being frugal, or for finding efficiencies. or, like, you know, there'll be situations where maybe they didn't quite get the attendance or things changed, and you know. need to in the cultural plan. We are using this funding to support cultural organizations and their missions that support the community.

[32:00] And so if they can do that funds way that they do. That shouldn't be quite that level. Right? It's it's not a grant about great ways to represent that you spend every single time in a grant. That's that's tricky, right? The the second part of this is is that because the mission of this program, the the project grants organizations. is part of the principles in the cultural plan about the sustainability of these organizations. we want to make sure that good practices and the ways in which people see their entire organization and the entire budget coming together. That's much more important to me as a priority

[33:01] on it is a wonderful idea for organizations that do have a surplus to explain that to the Commission to explain what they're going to do with the funding, and ideally to align that funding to the reason why they apply to this grant. Right? So those types of things are good practices. But I wouldn't require that. I think that type of blanket rulemaking that you must do this if this happens. puts the Commission at more risk. because there's gonna be situations where perhaps it's not a good idea, and want the flexibility. you know. Examine it. So there's other reasons. Well, but I just want to say, like the best way to execute the grant. To be able to return is to definitely scrutinize that, ask applicants what they intend to do. but not bring it to the level of must return the funding. I think that Will was all in organizations, being more reluctant to be honest.

[34:02] and organizations of the tied down to the ways that they work with their budget. Thank you, Matt. Any other questions. comments, Marina. Anything you want to add to the discussion questions for our guests? No, thanks, no, thank you. great somebody like to make motion. I will thank you. Yep. Move that we approve the following information for the report from Boulder ballet. Okay. I'll second. unless someone else already did all those are done. Aye. thank you all. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

[35:04] Gonna make people work at the back. Thank you. We're waiting for. or anyone to that person. We'll mind. We'll start the discussion. Oh, sorry meeting within a meeting with that is amazing. The discussion, about the local theatre company program change. So you received their request and I think Maria mentioned it already a little bit. You also received their original application to compare it. the options that you have for this change. And oh, I'll back up a little bit. The reason that we bring these changing program requests to you. If somebody asked for a date change or something that's not changing nature or the substance of the Grant. Then we approve that in-house. We only bring these to you when it's a fairly substantial change in program. And this one I felt like was big enough because they're working with an entirely different

[36:22] well. so we brought it to your input and your insights and any comments that you have to give to them. There's not a representative here this evening unless they jump on you. So If you have any questions, I'm happy to bring them back to local. But the options that you have are to approve the change. to not approve the change and request, return the request of the funds already received. or to postpone approval, pending any answer specific questions which I'm happy to seek for you. So I'm gonna actually turn this off so we can all each other pretty well, but let me know if you wanna

[37:01] see this again. And I have. Oh, I don't, and just need a huge amount of discussion about this, so I'll open it a motion. I'll I'll move to approve discussion, any comments or I was gonna commend them on like their dedication to doing this and like being resourceful and like making anything happen. I thought that was really invent, invented what they did, and that they were like very said best in it. So I commend that I would second, that II thought at first. Oh, boy, you know I always have the concern of like who have they displeased out of the very difficult decision that that granting cycle was and then, as I was looking for it. I've realized that you know all of the criteria areas that we point to are really covered in the same way by by this. So it seems seamless to me that removed any questions I had about like.

[38:11] Oh, my God, we're gonna mess up that the applications. And so I also come. I'm glad they were able to find a solution that fit the spirit of what the application really taught us. and I also appreciate the plan to move forward. Maybe I can add my comment now, since I tried to do at the right time. Ii think that their program is going to be wonderful, and I think it's very thoughtful, and I think the what struck me was that they the Ell District Sanction plan, didn't allow their programming. and I don't think this is necessarily the role of the Commission. But I just wonder if there's a way to help

[39:02] the Arts community to have advocacy on district sanctuary plans to integrate the arts cause. I think this is really key for kids and their mental health and their development and their love of the arts. So I think it's kind of a big, open question to all of you. You know. What is there something that we all can do? Probably outside of this commission? That's what struck me. I think it sounds like overhauling educational plans. certainly. Yeah, if there is a place for us to do that, I would be happy to spearhead that. But maybe we can just kick it around and see if this is even a the appropriate play stuff. Take on that type of initiative. So. anyhow. especially work.

[40:00] I think that's valid to learn. Learn, or put that into the agenda previous school. and I'm sure that what awesome. alright any other discussion. all in favor. Then thank you for them. Grant cycle blueprick going. So for the last part of my section this evening. we just so we send to you. I'm gonna say it's 28 documents overtakes. however, many pages that is so big. Thank you so much in advance for reviewing those. Yes.

[41:10] we greatly appreciate it. And we see now what we're building out for the community next year, which is very exciting. So really, the question is, if you have any questions, concerns, edits. comments, additions, and just for perspective. The next and final step is that we will build those in. If you all agree that they're appropriate, and then you'll be voting on this at the October retreat. It's sort of a great passage for you as you go into that coming year. So I'm also gonna turn this off so we can see Maria get my notes out. I have notes anybody else, though I have. I have some notes, too. if I may just real quick before you start the discussion. The the rules are according to the coordinates of grants, that the Arts Commission advises staff on the administration of the Grants.

[42:08] So we're seeking your advice. But it is your responsibility to decide how the money is spent. And so there's sort of 2 parts. To this question one of them is the whole package, what? What question do you have? What refinement can be? Can you advise on? But then, when it comes to the budget page. That's something that at the October tree we're gonna ask for an approval on. So it's just a little bit of heightened scrutiny great. And we have a separate section on the budget update. You'll be different, entirely different, entirely. Okay. Sorry. well, my comments have to do with integrating some of the questions that I find myself asking. Arrest a lot. and ways that we can sort of pull that up for the languaging here. So it's suggestions. If the rest of the Commissioners

[43:00] feel that it's warranted to the set. So the first comment I had is on under the cultural equity description of what the Commission will be looking for. And you know, describe how this is going to affect cultural equity. In boulder there is a component. There are 2 components that are pulled out in that paragraph which are the makeup of the organization like the leadership of the organization, and then also the audience make up where you where you're marketing to. and I find myself looking for information on who. in addition to those 2 things. the project leadership and who it? Who are the project attendees, and whether there's diversity and inequity expressed in the way that you're marketing, that so the example would be. If you're a theater organization and you're creating a school project

[44:03] where the kids are, gonna make songs and make a video and put it on the on Youtube is your organization have cultural equity? How about the teachers? How about the students? And then how about the people who are coming to see that play? 4 of us any thoughts on that. Carolyn. Can you tell us what page you're looking at when you're and I think it's in the section that has. Here's what our definition of these different numeric values is. And then above, for each section, there's a paragraph pullout. Oh, good question that way. I think it's in the rubric for the project grants project and articulation. nodding approval on them, adding that or discussion or

[45:06] thumbs up over here. Okay, no objection. Yeah. Yeah, I think that makes sense too value. Yes, it would be. Page 41 is one of the examples of that for the we need project packet page. Thank you. And I got that Yup excellent. The second piece that I find myself asking applicants for is on the the analysis, like the data analysis. and I would love to see it asked a little bit more pointedly for qualitative and call, how are you going to measure qualitative and quantitative? Hmm! Nodding.

[46:00] Maria, I'm sorry I don't have page numbers that fit me in the yeah. Sorry. I just have to read the language to catch up. So sorry about that. But what you said makes sense sometimes like to read the original. But that makes sense. There's an example on page 43 that's helpful. Is it helpful to give you the packet page. either one's great. Thank you. Okay. Oh, that's a book. And Maria, then when you are done taking a look at that. Why don't you hit us up with some of your suggestions while I find a page number for my next comment. Sheets for in the packets. Page 34. On the information Sessions. I think it's page number. It may not be the page number at the bottom. Hang on now I've I've carly confused myself. It's about the information sessions. Yeah, here we go.

[47:01] Obviously, this is in the bucket that Matt said is about administrating the grants. But I have a couple of recommendations on information sessions. Wonder if there could be a little bit more Dei training. I've heard that from my organization said, I'm liaisons. With that, I think there's just an ongoing need to continue some training. And I think the conversations that we've had in this commission even with today, I think we could use a little more training. And then I'm also wondering. In that training. Is it? Give people opportunity to network. You know, organization and individuals that help might help their programs become more diverse. And then the second on information is about the Grant writing fund. you know. Is there an opportunity to again host some type of forum that connects for first first time grant applicants with their resources, folks that are writers or you know. I just think, if there's ways that the city can help be a conduit for

[48:07] connecting people. my can I actually give you a little background on at least one of those great. the info sessions. We have one on zoom that we record. People can watch it afterwards, and they do watch afterwards. and then another in person. We also have a session that's not listed on here that I do annually, which is in December, which is a grant roundup. So I get my 7 closest grant funders in this area. So you know the Community foundation Cci State. So anybody that's funding in this area boulder, county art clients. state, county local funders. and they each have about 10 min or 5 min to present. And usually we have last year, like 70 people at that, and that is an annual event. Now we'll plan to come to it. So they get a rundown of all of the funding that we have in the upcoming year. We talk about our grants and other city opportunities, and that is like a really good

[49:07] the networking opportunity. I think I will plan it usually for the library, but I think we'll plan it some place cooler, so a little bit more like hangout after sorry library, you know. I think that one is the big info session, and I totally agree. And all of your points. We're working on a good Dpi training also. and certainly for the Grant Writing fund. I'm looking for more Grant writers. If there's anybody watching this, because last year, all both years that we've offered that fund. It's gone. It's been gone completely by February, because it's very popular. But the Grant writers have told me you have maxed me out. Please stop sending me the people that we know of. So I'm looking for New Grant writers. I have just one at this point. So if you know professional Grant writers or have recommendations, I'll reach out to them and ask if they would like to be connected to people that are interested or on our next step amended.

[50:02] Anybody's watching, please, please. 10 min. Thank you, Maria. Do you have any other ones where II do? Do you want me? Do you wanna pop back to you. Okay. I wanted to as a group. Just look at the boulder focus. And we we spend so much time splitting hairs over the boulder focus and just see if we're comfortable, how this is being we as a group or commission comfortable being, how this is being written so that we don't struggle when the grants come in. So it feels like every every round we struggle about the boulder focus. II like how it's been rewritten, but I thought it would be a good for everyone to check in and make sure that they're aligned with how it's been updated. But I'm going to share

[51:00] page 41, that what? You have a mute app on the website. Okay? So a reminder that for this one, now you have 6 points instead of 4 or 8. I really liked how this was broken down, but it made a lot of sense to me. I'm screening. Do you want me to say, but it's not in the document. It's like you didn't know.

[52:03] II like to how it's written. I just like again since we spent the last 2 years kind of going back and forth about this issue. I thought it would be good to talk about it now if we needed to, but I think it makes a lot of sense the way you've written it. Okay, on the same sort of vain like. Been talking about it. And I wanted to do a check in is on page 80, and that's on the leadership pipeline scholarship. and so I just wanted to. I wanna have a conversation about that. No, I had a question that got answered. Never mind, I'm gonna pass on that. I have a question. I have a question. I have a question on page 80 since we're there. That's okay. Ii struggled with our interview process

[53:05] and it seemed, granted, I know I'm virtual, so I apologize to all you for that. But seemed awkward. and I wonder if we could retool that interview a little bit to do the folks individually. and put a time limit on their interviews. So you know, whatever 10 min as individual, and perhaps it's not live. But it could be posted on the posted later as a part of the public records. I just thought the interview was awkward. I agree. Okay. the challenge that we have is that the meeting public? So you can't turn anyone away, so we can't have time where we say it's your time to interview a 9 investment other than that. Yeah, what? So I think that the 2 ways that we've discussed possibly solving the problem is, as you say, we can have

[54:01] a time period where you interview one person we can't ask them leaves. We can ask them to be the chair and to the audience, but they would be able to listen to all the interviews and the discussion about their application. Yeah, okay. Another way to do it is to do the interviews separate. Have everyone watch the videos and then discuss it. The meetings again. They would be able to attend and listen to all that. But it would be that would imply somebody has to conduct those interviews in between meetings. And then. And we did have follow-up question, yeah, let's face that right, create some challenge, solve one problem way that it won't work. I agree that it was awkward, and I feel some tension around what would have happened if we had everybody in the room, and sat and just focused on one person, because we have to have the same questions with what the advice was

[55:08] from the city, so that it's even handed so to allow the fourth person to sit here for 40 h and know exactly what the questions are. Know exactly how everybody else answered. Good is a little bit unfair to me. Yeah. even if they're sitting there. it's it's an unfair advantage. So later, you are in the process in my mind. And so what we tried to do is start with different people, 42 buses. So everybody had equal time in the hot seat, and then relaxing and listening. I suppose you don't have to have interviews could be like every other. Grant that you have an application last question. Have some questions. Have a period for follow up questions. I like that. So you would do like the same kind of week on response.

[56:03] Would you want to build out a scoring system, for we would need to build out some kind of scoring system for it. That would. That would be the one especially with him. Oh, I see. And then you have the discussion in person. Right? Yeah. You could receive an application of no scoring system. Everyone submits questions to Lauren. Those questions get answered. You read them, and then you come here and discuss it as you did. Yeah, I think that worked. If everybody's asking individual questions is that yeah, everybody has to ask questions. You wouldn't. I wouldn't be as worried about that if you have clear criteria. that's where maybe we don't have scoring. But what we don't have now is the application says, here's the purpose. Come, talk to us about that. Instead, it would say, Here's the purpose. And here's how we're going to evaluate. That doesn't have to have a score, but it says this is the criteria.

[57:04] and then everyone is measured against their criteria. I think that's another way of getting out was there? Thought process behind. Why, we should introduce to this program while we did that? Yes, because that's how we've always done it. We also wanted, as these would be arts administrators in Boulder. We wanted to be sure that you're meeting them and talking to them and getting to know them, because hopefully, eventually, they'll be sitting right. That's a bit more in the past. It would be a bit more informal and more kind of like joining the arts administrative world. Right? Yeah. And I mean, I think different people's personalities respond like, some people might find it a real disadvantage just that they're for.

[58:03] They're like, they're like me and I like the suggestion like that addresses what my concerns would have. and suggestion of the suggestion of having the questions you're using feedback and discussing. okay. Maria does that so the the can you please repeat the kind of what's the you have questions are, we in sorry I missed the beginning part. We're going to interview separately or together. The proposal that's on the table is no interview. They submit a brand application into which their their criteria are articulated. You read it to make questions in writing that more processes, basement responses, and writing.

[59:04] Then you come to the meeting and discuss best with the breakfast. Great. So it's more in alignment with the other grants. With the exception that we have a public discussion about the yeah. Okay, yeah, I think that I think everyone should be aware, like the the the challenge there is that. you know you're you're not getting to talk to, you know like you, said Lauren. You're not getting to talk to a person and have them respond. And you know a lot of scholarships are about more than an answer to a question. So you move something $14. I think that's a good approach, for I mean we can retool it right. We can try it again next year and retool it again. Yeah, so we'll bring you criteria next time, and I'll rework the schedule. But also, thank you.

[60:02] Great. Thank you. I have 2 more sorry. I feel like I'm do you? Wanna go ahead? Go! You go first. Carolyn's on 1 13 and it's about the report for the G. OS. And I. My suggestion is that we add a question about the actual impact that they feel that they had on the cultural nodding. So to this corner, one page, yeah. Boom. go ahead, Maria. Back to the Rubik rubic on the encouragement points.

[61:01] I I'll be honest. I always struggle with how to score those encouragement points. And I just wanted to have a discussion. If you all struggle as well, and do we need to clarify that it's just me. Then I'll I'll I'll work on myself. So that's on page 42 is what I wrote down. I've always taken that under advisement of staff as a very subjective measure that accommodates where there's something really juicy about this, and I can't give them points in another category. But I really feel like there's something that deserves a little bit more attention here. To give people some extra points there. I appreciate that somebody's writing someone else that they're not in. Yeah? Yeah. Or is that the other thing we intend with? This is maybe their first time applicants. And you wanna

[62:10] give them a boost. Yeah. I look at just in terms of process, Maria, how I do it is II literally just look at the list of 6 criteria of examples. and kind of feel into whether those tickle anything that I've been reading in the application that I haven't already sort of weighed into the other criteria and noting that those are just examples. But like, I read through those I'm like, okay, is there anything about this that's like leaning toward this. Okay, great agreed. And that's what I do. But it feels very subjective, more so than the other portions of the scoring. So if you all are comfortable. Yeah, with how it's written. That's

[63:04] yeah. So that may be more of a conversation of principles like it. It's it's that moment like, like. but production groups. So it's hard to say specific criteria. The only thing I can say that is, maybe the other thing that's different about this is that we don't ask the applicant to address right. Or am I wrong about that? You can. They can. Okay. Well, never mind. I withdraw that one. Oh, it used to be a check mark. It began as a if you were not awarded a larger grant by the Commission. Then it was a way to support organizations that weren't getting a lot of funding from the Arts Commission, or I had never written a grant before. And then it expanded to be more. But now there's okay. I apologize. I mix that up.

[64:00] Didn't read all 100, and I'm done with my comments. Maria, do you have another one, I think. And then my last one is I just have an ongoing concern about the Se. Success of the arts. Education grants. I feel like these are so vitally important. And I just feel like we're either not getting enough folks submitting, for whatever reason, you know, because of Covid, or they're unable to finish their grants. And I'm just wondering there's anything we can do to retool that grant to make it more successful, to have more arts go into out to kids. open. Yeah, that it is the most challenge it has been the most challenging to catch up with for organizations and artists. because they're working in schools. This last year has been the most successful year of organizations, finally reconnecting, getting back into schools and doing work.

[65:04] We have never received an enormous amount of applications in this category, I think because it's very particular. The question about how does this address curriculum in a school with you? Right? Is very particular. So the most we've ever received for applications 1715 17 in the last 6 years. So I I think we I would ask that maybe we look at one more year now that things are carrying on better as far as so we'll getting back concession. I do And I think this is maybe a question or a longer question. I do think that $1,000 is not enough. but that is just a personal feedback that we would want to get more community and applicant feedback, and also the application. It's slightly longer for the arts, education, grant for less money. I'm not sure how to cause. We need all of those questions answered. But I think it's something that's a bigger discussion that

[66:05] I want to get some more like input from the people that are actually getting the branch. That's fine. So are you suggesting, Lauren, that at our retreat we could entertain the notion of as an example, saying, We're going to give 5 grants for $6,000. I think that would be really challenging for the upcoming year, because we we have to approve the Grant program at the route. so I think it would be really have to adjust it. But that is your I agree, I think, not only for this, but for all these. We would love to get the last comments to make the last change. So we we can certainly work on it next month. But we want to be close enough to be able to reach your target in that time. And I think we do a lot more research. yeah, II think, Maria, I'm gonna agree with Lauren that if we could,

[67:06] may maybe make a few tweaks admittedly. But try and keep this the way it is now, and spend the next year taking a look at the details, talking to some classroom teachers, talking. applied before it. See what we can do to make some changes for the following cycle. I think that's the best great. Thank you. Any other questions or comments. I want to point out something that's important, especially given the conversation we had earlier tonight that the conversation about the ballet's report. exposure, vulnerability. and the ballet was that most generous sloppy in what they gave to us. and when we received information like that Lauren's job when receiving an application, is to make sure it's criteria.

[68:03] Your job is to evaluate it against those I'm sorry. Make sure it meets the guidelines. Your job is to evaluate against criteria. Thing I missed is the math, and making sure everything is consistent. And I don't know the answer to that question. Yeah, but it's something in which you explore. And we're gonna do that and make sure that we have a mechanism, too. Figure this stuff out ahead of time, because. you know, we don't want to push in that position. so the one thing we did do already, and is is a minor. But first step is, add a very simple line you may have missed, which is that if We. We notify people in the application that when they submit a budget or anything else. they should retain documentation because they may be asking for proof of what they said. that's not a process by which we can solve the problem. But it points the right direction. So we're gonna have more to talk about that later, as we figure out exactly what that looks like. But I just wanna point out it's like

[69:08] that was a struggle that go through over. If if it if it was limited to this, we're generous and saying was limited, sloppy, Grant Bank, grant applicating. But then that's unfortunate. So I think it's important that we take message. Yeah, there's a lot still stewing around a mic. Well, I think I part of my understanding that the funds for that we raised are to give to artists so that they can afford to live in boulder because we know the impact having artists living and our city does.

[70:00] So I'm curious when an organization writes a grant for $10,000 and then pay as an artist what they claim to be $1,300, it's actually less. Does that seem like our money? And then they use the rest of the money to the lights on. you know. Is that really in alignment with what you know the goal was artists become. I mean that that kind of piggybacks. But I don't know the reason I'm stewing around. It is because I don't know how to frame the big concern that I have about that is that half of that grant that we constituted into Gos right. And it's not a Geos. And then and we don't have a mechanism to be like. wait a minute. You're trying now, if they did the program, yeah. but

[71:01] that that leaves a really bad taste for the fees. Grant that we're talking about arts and education, that they're $3,000 grants that you know, 100% of that money is going to paying the teachers and in there and working with a large group of children. So it's having a bigger impact. What is sorry we were to put a statement in project grants, arts, education, and community projects. I don't know if it asks a question or says. What what is your plan to pay artists a sustainable way? And here's a link to the sustainable raging boulder. And here's a link to the artist. Fair wage project or artist, fair wage

[72:03] organization of it with a hope. I mean, there's like I love that. And the disconnect that's happening for me is the difference between what an organization says in your application. Think it's safe, I mean, you know. And then what ends up coming out on the other program? But questions and terms. And II don't know where it's our role to react to that. I don't. I related to what we we talked about extra funds and not asking for extra funds back gonna write. I mean me project, knowing that if there's leftover making. I'll keep you like.

[73:04] I mean, I and I didn't read the application for this grant. But how can I, Cedar Point? If I were to read a grant that was to teach one Dan's classic? And they were asking for $10,000. I can easily say, I know that it does not cost. or one dance program. That is no, totally. That doesn't cost 10,000 20 dance classes because it did. I said we'd have a lot more dance instructors. Okay. I think I think we're is it 2 sort of. There's the issue of

[74:02] maybe it's 3. There's the issue of using project grants funds for operating support issues. There's the issue of fund spent funds. It happens with that. And that's the issue of artists making great wages, which I agree with you is an issue that's in the culture plan. We need to deal with it. I don't think it's the only thing that grants are about. But yeah, it should be primary among them right? and you know as I'm hearing myself speaking, I'm hearing some pushback from organization saying. it's hard enough to make these things go without they, you know, quote unquote minimum wage. You know the old argument, which I don't believe, but I don't doubt it's very difficult to have a nonprofit. So I'm trying to think if there are ways. Yeah. So we've done this before with very, very small

[75:05] that we recommended, and there for $500, no very minimal. But there is a practice in the grant world that if you're an artist applying for Grant, you can say, Okay, up to 20, up to 30 can go towards paying yourself an artist, right? And as a recommendation, right? So hey, in your budget but percentage to pay yourself. And we could expand it into an organizational level that says, we recommend that you only use 10% of this grants towards your operating expenses, paying yourself because 7 years. And it is very challenging to be getting project grants with no upgrades for right, which is a bigger discussion. But I do think, if you need the list, you do need like John right. You have to pay the person who's writing a grant, and I think that it's worth recommending. If anything that we said, you recommend that you only use 10%, 20% of your project brand application towards general operating support, some kind of

[76:02] firm information. And I can look into what a good practice or the best practice of that is, if you're interested. And certainly not looking at budgets not going that. but to look at. I know that that is a best practice, like organizations are. Gonna do that my other concern for the other pieces? If we start saying we're looking intimately had your unspent funds, they're not going to be honest with us when they're right like, that's a lot of babies. Because if they're saying. because if you're gonna ask for the funds back. If there is a kickback, we're not gonna give money to them again next year because they didn't send over funds. I think it's more important to know what is really happening with their grantees than to say. we're gonna start penalizing you for what you're doing to be fiscally responsible, or what you need to support your right so better in the front end. To say.

[77:04] this is the best practice. This is a recommendation that if you are getting a private grant come for some set. you're very smart. So what? What? If at least for a year in order to like inch our way, towards some better practices we have on the application and on maybe not in the grant agreement, but on our response. When they get a grant, I mean, they're saying you're gonna have to write a report when we send those out. We say the best way to use this money. Here's our recommendations on the best way. This is project money. 20 to 30% should be spent on things, you know, administrative costs like. you know, staff time that are not teachers or artists. marketing, or you know, we could do do. A little second recommendation is, you pay teachers and artists a sustainable wage. Here's a link to what that.

[78:05] And then the third thing is, we recommend that you carefully consider, if you have any unspent funds. that that money you either return that money to the commission, or preferably talk to the Commission about use of that money that's in alignment with the application and the criteria, so that their intent for this money is continued. and that'll be reviewed at the report. Something like that. Just to start taking these issues out there. I'd say, if you're interested in that one thing I'd like to do before October is bounce that off of a couple of our more sophisticated Grant writers, and that we run across and just see if there's anything on that realizing I'm interested in that. Yeah. any objections to that group we can get better go. The only thing I'm wondering I appreciate putting it a little bit of that. That's your percentages so that they can write the brand.

[79:07] Oh, it would certainly be like in the yeah in this grant. Yeah, right? And then a simple reminder of all my other reminders. When they get you wouldn't go in the formal agreement. The agreement is like with the need. And so that wouldn't be a part of that. like an email in my group. I also just want to clarify what I said before. But I was not. By that you're able to know anything else. Staff. you have our suggestions. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. These are excellent. It's only going to improve our program. Thank you so much. You. Thank you, Alfred. Great feature. All right. The next

[80:02] matter. And just noting that it's 7 20. Fourth, I'm gonna try and take less than 10 min on this. At the July City Council meeting. one of the council members wrote this amazing letter email. Yeah, right? If they didn't write. do I still read it? They read it. We read it, and it was written by Naacp, Boulder County. and I thought it was really eloquent. And so I suggested that we read it here. So I'm just gonna read it. Greetings and N. Double Acp. Boulder county response to the 15.1 5 sales tax ballot question arts and culture events and programming benefit boulder. In a myriad of ways. It is one of the most visible ways. Boulder projects its image and values to the larger community the state and the nation.

[81:00] In areas of housing, leasing, and homelessness the city's racial equity tool appears as an afterthought or is avoided altogether. The boulders Office of Arts and Culture has done more to support racial equity than any other city department to date the arts community has shown that the arts bring in revenue mostly by attracting tourists and patrons from outside and within boulder, who spend money on adjacent restaurant and retail sales. When a city embraces cultural awareness and art, the result is revenue, vibrancy and prestige. Artists play a valuable and and irreplaceable role in society. Societies throughout history recognize this art like love, while seemingly and talent tangible, has profound impact on politics, education, equity, and community awareness. The impact of artists in times of social upheaval, not to mention the universally recognized healing which creativity and artists through branching community is beyond measure. Artists in America are used to bring. Being

[82:00] artists in America are used to being undervalued. Artists in boulder are used to being undervalued. Neighboring city's efforts, such as long notes, outstanding auditorium with community and cultural program programming, put folders, efforts and venues in perspective. while and N. Double Acp boulder County would could easily support 100% of the tax going to the arts, particularly in light of racial equity efforts and Doubleac, Ppc. Would, in the spirit of collaborations for the 50 50 split of the tax with 50% unequivocally supporting arts and culture and 50% work homeless support and affordable housing. Public safety has the largest budget in the city. Consequently it is hard to justify taking money from an arts and culture tax and allocating it to the city's police budget. The issue of homelessness is nationwide, and requires a much greater outlay of funds than will ever be generated from this tax. In the spirit of collaboration, however, if a 50 50 split is the option. Those funds fees to support alternative efforts for homeless support services other than

[83:04] solution. Those who are unclear about the intrinsic value of artists in society are advised to study history more thoroughly. The arts speak a universal language. Reaching across ethnic, religious, and economic divisions. The arts allow for nonviolent cultural shifts. 4,000 signatures bringing this ballot forward represent voters who understand the value of unapologetically supporting the arts, and holder, recognizing the dramatic and positive difference. Such support could and would bring. and that is from the Vice President of N. Double Acp. Boulder County du Landsman. So I thought that was great. I'm gonna hold on to a copy of it, cause it's nice to know that somebody sees the work we're doing. I I'm heartened to hear that the and the N double Acp thinks we're doing a good job in equity. I'm sad to hear that we're doing the best job in a way.

[84:06] as a point of parity. know it. Great work! It's some other department. Well, that might be the perspective of recognize the work that might be going unnoticed. by services and the police department shift gears. Course I do so. Well as I've recognized. Thank you so much for that. II didn't want to imagine that we were just quoting alone, and I was

[85:02] all right moving on. Thank you. Bringing that. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. While you're thinking about questions about the manager's memo and the staff updates, and I guess, sort of in response to what the discussion just was that I'm also glad that we're getting some recognition, glad that we're part of a city that values this and glad we're in an environment in our internal workplace culture. That is clear that the the work doesn't have a goal that it's about continuing to pursue justice in a lot of different ways and have that ripple out to the community right? And so with that in mind. Lauren and I have been hearing a lot of feedback from different organizations about the specific Edi challenges that they face in their workforce. You've heard about some of that here and

[86:02] we are trying to come up with the best ways to be supportive and help advance that work. But we also notice that not only our grant making, but grant making generally tends to address the the equity component of the arts in terms of audience and leadership. and the workforce is left out of that equation a lot. And so we thought we wanted to move on that. So Lauren, working with the Equity project to line up a workshop probably later this year for our top arts, employers hopefully for profit, nonprofit and send the invitation out to everyone who has a certificate workforce to do a multiple day workshop, and specifically the equity component of agree and diversity component of Hr. Recruitment and retention and workplace culture.

[87:05] and we'll bring people together, probably in this room and have them go through some benchmarking and some working through some of their personal issues or numbers, their professional issues in those matters. and then hopefully, that will also include some one on one consulting and auditing that will go on after that somewhere. especially if some are not problem. That's something that we'll talk about more as it comes closer. But it's something that we think might really be able to actually. or at least get us started out in that really unique singular place. So that's coming up. We'll let you know how it goes, and so are there any other questions about the manager's demo? Let's talk about the October retreat. So thank you for answering the question about dates. It looks like our best bet is gonna be November third.

[88:07] okay, the week that's on Friday, Saturday, Friday, Friday. Thank you. Turn around. the time is a little bit more of a question, because Caroline has a really important thing going on. So we wanted to talk a little bit about the time. But, You know what I'm thinking now, more, it's it's a morning things, so it may be 9 to 1, 9 to 2 in that realm on Friday, the third from November. are there any like open objections to us setting that? That's Friday. Marina, you're good with that alright. Good. Okay. So we're gonna lock that in and send you out a note about that. I'm still kind of working on a location. But we'll get you note about that. I think we have something really tight lined up

[89:02] and the agenda? We'll send out a draft of that as soon as possible, so that we can refine that Jordan Caroline. make sure that's locked in, too. Thank you very much. The 2024 citywide budget is the next agenda. Item. So I sent out the full student wide budget and a link to our division budget. Encourage you to take a look at that tool. It's it's easy to use and go through and sort things in different ways. And so if you have any questions about it definitely, let Chris and I know. The important thing to know is that the 2 dates coming up for public hearings are gonna be October fifth for the first public hearing on October twelfth. There's always an option for a third public hearing. But. Nope. there's a lot of people working very hard to trim that up. Make sure that doesn't happen. We'll see but the budget that you'll see, and that has been already presented to Council and discussed in the study session is going to come up in those public hearings, for the arts is pretty much flat.

[90:03] There is a minor increase for inflation adjustments. and if you look at the tool. It looks like there is a dip of 300,000. But that is actually because the experiments in public art program was one time funded. And so we're gonna be looking into bridging that over 2 years that things will still be happening. But that's why it looks like that is actually, that's the only change. Everything else is like. So, Chris, do you have anything to add about the Not really. And say that maybe in the future keep it up with this new button. Present the they have part of their ordinance responsibility. of course, a year from now

[91:03] funding for the arts, and so that might be so. But please do. Preference certainly is to lives of our friends in the finance department. entire city, like across finish line. There are any. We all have room very happy. Appreciate the we're also see Matt. Matt. I'm sorry I haven't looked at the budget so, and I hope this isn't an awkward question. Does that? Does that inflation increase include adjustments for all of you

[92:08] staff members? Because I think the Commission would advocate that you all stay in pace with inflation and cost of living. And yes. Yeah, I appreciate that. No, that's that's a operational budget. But there is funding in the city wide budget for increasing for all staff. I'm not quite sure. level or anything that I think is a decision that happens later. But yes, there are research, but there is a general budget increase to for merit that are intended. Our tool great work. Yes, there is an increase in the personnel budget for 2024. That increase will be realized

[93:04] merit. and I think I think I think hopefully I speak on behalf of all the commissioners. If there's a way we can help advocate that you continue to keep pace with the equitable pay scale for arts in the community, we would love to do that. So let us know, I guess. Sorry I'm speaking for everyone, because I assume everyone agrees. Thank you. Okay, last part of our. My part of the agenda is just check in on the November December meetings and take it away. It is agenda item focuses on the meeting that are scheduled for this November and December. so we know that every month. So with this meeting, Caitlin. the November meeting.

[94:00] it's scheduled to be held on the 20 s of November, and the December meeting is on December. So. first, looking at the November 20 s meeting, that's schedules are in Thanksgiving so past practice. November meeting a week later, which would be November 20 ninth. So that's an awesome and regarding the 17 with the holidays. The Commission has often. I don't cancel the meeting that's been done voted on in previous years. And then. did we have a shorter meeting in December this year, for, like kind of pressing matters. My recollection go back and check. This is that we tentatively scheduled a short morning, if there was any reports. and then there weren't, there was one, but they were fine

[95:01] postponing, and so we ended up right cause. The concern was we didn't want people to have to wait for 2 min to go. Right? Yeah, okay. I like static function. have a so I don't have a slide for you. but we can either room do a motion to move the November meeting right now, or we can take that up in October. Here's one of my concerns is Jeffrey, and his availability, because he's having a difficult time making with teams might be something. Check in with him. Also, just to you're gonna paste on it for the next meeting October meeting, at least right now. What I'm going to do will certainly change, Charles. Okay, and we'll check in with Bruce. As well make sure that that works. But

[96:00] why don't I? Send out an email? Just a note about October or sorry? November 20 ninth as the alternative and I'll come back in October, and and then I, yeah, would maybe give us that November date and then placeholder for the center. Okay, good. Oh, we're good. And with a pound of my fest. Thank you. I have.