April 27, 2022 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:00] hi Terry okay. All right, I am recording tonight's meeting. Very good, welcome to the April 27 meeting of the boulder housing Advisory Board. i'm going to call the meeting to order and Michael mutasa the Chair of the Board and take roll call so Juliet boone. know. You can see you're here. Philip overwritten one of our newer. Members here here. julianne ramsey officially, a member of have now, I believe. hi Jennifer lubavitch. Hello. Terry Ramos. Your hair military and Danny Theodora. Connecting. But then he's connecting great. We not only have a quorum, then I think we have full attendance that's wonderful Thank you.

[1:02] fantastic. blue. Danny man I can't you and. I am an. Okay, any welcome great to see you back. Okay, we have, as I said, we have full attendance here and again number welcome our newest board members Philip o'brien who attended, as a member of. Last month. And Julian ran to use officially a member now do you want to say hi Giuliana and introduce yourself a little more. yeah hey you say introduce myself a little bit during the last meeting but there's a few new people here to. My name is Julian ramsey and i'm officially a board member as of tonight, I must admit to you, setting environmental design and i'm really interested in housing and urban planning and i'm happy to be here. Very. cool you introduce yourself last month, but not everybody was here, you want to say hi again. Hello i'm Philip. I.

[2:00] have been passionate about housing for quite a while I am. dabbled in a bunch of things around around housing i'm campaign with bedrooms are for people and I host a podcast that's kind of dormant at the moment called sharing boulder and. i've blogged about housing in the past too, and yeah i'm just really excited to be in this conversation with everyone here. Great well, I look forward to both the being very active members. Okay agenda review we have a really interesting agenda tonight will be approving the Minutes first is pretty routine, we have a believe at least one guests who. For public participation for potential kind of comment that Item number five and then really big one that we've been working on for a long time is. Our final review with a potential recommendation on the east boulder sub Community plan which we did a 90% review of last month that's item six, it is an action Item number seven madams Board will be.

[3:06] electing a chair and vice chair for the coming year and we will also be reviewing the. City Council priorities related to housing and I did send out a memo about this just really trying to set the scene, so we were prepared to. Talk about that, I hope it wasn't too opinionated I was really just trying to state the issues, so we could deal with them in a timely manner. automate Madam Spanish and staff, the affordable housing dashboard update now is a meeting debrief and calendar check so when they'll read next, and then we will try to return, no later than 9pm. So I believe we've all had a chance to review the minutes to a here emotion on approval of March 30 minutes. I moved to prove. three seconds.

[4:03] Great all in favor Aye. Okay looks like the Minutes are unanimously approved I got that right. Do we have Members a member or members of the public who would like to take three minutes to come into the board. Well, you have a member, yes, are you able to hear me. Yes, mark you're welcome howdy. um, I first want to say that I know that you all have a lot on your plate you get a lot of flack for the East Community sub plan going on right now so like any good, effective. board you all are. Getting criticized because you're doing your work, so I just want to recognize that and I appreciate you doing your work i'm here specifically as I was here back in the fall, I believe, and I met with a few of you back in December on the issue of rent control and.

[5:08] Specifically well very specifically on rent control, but my i'm urging you all to please address issues of the rental housing market. And i'm glad to see you have at least one if not two people on on have we're now our renters that's really good. And I appreciate, seeing that voice, because it's often way to absent from public discussion and the narrative on affordable housing, which as we all know, covers. 52% of the world's population are renters so I really want to urge the have to dress this specific segment and I realize, you are doing it, to some extent with affordable housing. But I would really like to urge, if not encouraged, if not push you all to pay more attention to the specific existing rental market.

[6:09] I know you're working on new units, but the existing unit is where most low income people exist and they really could use your help, given the absolutely obscene rents, that we are all facing. At this point, I feel, you have a strong role to play in advising the City Council in terms of a number of tenant issues that have been unaddressed up to this point. And i'm going to run out of time, like I did last time, so I don't have the time and I wish I could have a longer period of time to to see you or help you address that segment. of existing housing and how important it is for boulder to recognize this is where people live, and we need help that segment really needs help rent control, obviously, is one of the biggest things that one of the biggest.

[7:07] dynamics that could make a huge difference to the most number of people, and I just would like to see have addressed that issue in some meaningful way. Of course understanding we all understand it is illegal in the state of Colorado, but there is growing pressure on all cities to address and do something significant about rental prices for existing housing and i've run out of time and i'll just have to leave it there. Okay mark, thank you for being here and for commenting. And I will tell you in all honesty that rank control is not our work plan for this year, unfortunately, there are just many, many competing. Difficult issues.

[8:00] But I would love to hear from you as to what your conversations on this topic, have been especially if you've been able to speak with any of our elected officials or policymakers like specifically what does this look like and you getting. That over might possibly act on something related to rent control. i'm sorry to interrupt, but I just put something in the chat because I write a column for the boulder weekly on this issue. Of by column. A biweekly column, and I just put it in the chat the last four columns that i've written on this issue that will give you some good background. Okay, well, that would work for me, I promise I will read them I haven't yeah. Does anyone from the board, have any questions for Mr fear. Any other comments on this topic. i'm copying the links down and i'm going to i'm going to read them, so thank you for sharing.

[9:01] I have a question mark and. i'm not an expert in rent control, but it sounds like you've done a ton of research on it, and I was curious in cities where you seen rent control effective do property owners also get some kind of relief when it comes to property tax increases and expenses that they might incur. On the ownership side, so that they can effectively. maintain rent control without. Losing you know operating at a loss. Julia I appreciate you asking my question is so there's so much to the subject that the we could easily take an hour hour and a half, on this. But the real quick answer is some of that answers are in my columns that i'm writing i'm giving detailed information, including. Looking at the cities that have it almost 200 cities around the country have rent control and it's working in those cities and more cities are looking at trying to get it.

[10:08] So the really quick answer i'm trying to be as direct as possible those costs, including taxes maintenance repairs all of those things are built into the rents already so they're there. And they're addressed, and when people are in most cities allow rent increases to include any increased costs like higher taxes were being able to do repairs and maintenance. They are able to pass those costs on in reasonable rent increases rent control doesn't stop rent from going up, it just means it has to be reasonable increases. Thank you so. mark, I guess, one of the things I just throw at you, and I mean this is, you know, probably not the forum for it, but I just you know the the concern of rent controls, always been on top of everything else the.

[11:06] The kind of telluride case and, and you know we're the Supreme Court upheld the prohibition on rent control. which you know originated statutorily I know that can be modified, but it creates quite a problem, even for. You know 10 gentle rent control or you know things like Am I restrictions in the state of Colorado so. yeah I know that's that's always you know, been my understanding that it's it's a really. Tough nut to crack because of because of that supreme court case, and you know related statutes to it and, as far as I know, that's still. that's still seems to be the the big obstacle that we face for almost everything yes. you're right it's precedent, but also that was decided 20 years ago and there's a completely new group on the Colorado Supreme Court.

[12:00] And I feel pretty confident, given the environment of incredibly high rents write down that the current Colorado Supreme Court would make a different decision then in May 20 years ago when it was a very different rental environment. Okay, thanks. anyone else. Well, I agree, it is a really important issue and I want to thank you for keeping it in our attention and. You know, right now, there's a bit of a deadlock with statutory issues and the state that something we should be keeping an eye on. I think we're all aware that our outcome of our retreat was the focus on missing middle housing in 2022 which I think is pretty well alone aligned with Council priorities and. city priorities now fortunately housing and such a big issue it's just impossible to attack every every angle of the same time, but thank you again for your comments and, once again, any other comments on this issue or questions for our guests.

[13:11] Thanks for considering it. We all read your columns also thank you. Okay miners from the Council item six East folder sub Community plan, we did receive the updated draft just the other day I looked through it today. I would love to. Know it's all hard to tell if it's different from the 90% version that we saw last time I didn't have time to compare them side by side, but I wonder if anybody has done that. And then, also as an entity any comment on, I know some folks commented to Kathleen king and elements of the plan, if you want to review any of your comments on that we can talk about that as well, but this is an action item, so we can have as much discussion about it as you'd like.

[14:03] Who would like to start. of questions question Michael. You know, Terry please. For Jay I don't know if everybody's read the news but recently an announcement was made that a big biotech real estate investment group bought. Basically, a million square feet of commercial space, and I believe most of it as a nice folder, if not all of it, and my question to Jay is is. Is anybody looked at where these buildings are compared to the east folder sub Community plan are they all within these folders sub Community plan, do we know that. The biggest deal. yeah. No, I. I don't know the details like how much is in the folders on Community plan area. But that's. i'm not i'm not entirely sure would have a significant impact on the plan, I mean so think about these boulder subcommittee plan, I mean it's it's one level down from the comprehensive plan it's really meant as a very long term vision document.

[15:14] And, but I agree, I mean it that that's a pretty big game changer if you have a single property owner. In the area and whether or not they're embraced the these folders plan, I think, will be a big factor in how well and how quickly it gets implemented so but yeah sorry I don't have more. yeah no I mean I i'm guessing you're you know I haven't studied a map and looked at the buildings that were just recently purchased and where they factor in but i'm. 90% sure they're all out there they're all in the screen arapahoe and and iris and east of 47th and etc, etc i'm sure i'm 90% sure all of them are out there that that's a huge deal, nobody can been paid 500. I mean, this was a big thing and and and I don't know what our plans are anybody knows what our plans are but.

[16:07] It seems to be that their plans are to keep those buildings office buildings and places where people go to work. And that impacts, the ability to redevelop them, which is what these for supplemental plan is talking about redeveloping all those buildings. Which my personal opinion is great idea I love to see something other than. 20 and 30 year old office buildings 4050 year old office buildings and parking lots out there, I would love to see the plan come to fruition, but. This is like the biggest elephant in the room ever i'm kind of having a huge saying what happens out there now, so I just was wondering if that's I mean this is breaking news is literally a week old, so it just needs to be taken into consideration. yeah that's a great point very good day. And Terry i'd say probably. I don't know where they are either, but you know, to the extent that there's residual properties that are not part of that purchase which I imagine there's at least you know some percentage.

[17:03] Maybe a lot of aspects of this plan, then allow them for them, the flexibility to be kind of outside of whatever the the the use and development plan is for for that company and. Our. properties they purchase. It absolutely could be, but what happens is, we all know, when you're trying to do master plan you know you need some momentum right, you need a bunch of property owner. or somebody to consolidate a whole block or an area to get it going doing it once the Tuesday is harder it's just hard it's impossible it's just more difficult. So that's that's just a side note, otherwise I love the plan for what it's worth I think it's great i'm all for it let's let's take each folder and make it much nicer than it is now. yeah I think you are right, Terry that the entirety of that office park is in the district and actually. I know there can be pluses and minuses there is consolidation of ownership there.

[18:00] We used to know anything about the new owners, the company that sold it, you know, has been known to do some pretty progressive things in real estate, so I was actually the Elder. And you know I met Danny out there just the other day, and you know they're already starting to juice and makes us. In the form of breweries in coffee shops so it's not like this blank wasteland so much when you go out there there's. Other things to do, and maybe that's you know that's not housing, but it's a trend towards mixed use. Mark when he come in and and talked about this is the plan, I wanted to address that a little bit I think it's a good plan. And i'm impressed with the work the city has done. There has been some criticism that about adding jobs that would continue to exacerbate the jobs, housing imbalance in boulder. I you know I can see some logic to that, but it doesn't really fly for me personally. there actually are about I think 10,000 jobs in that area already and virtually no housing, so the imbalance to me is there's no housing, you know there's 10,000 people coming into boulder that no place to live near their their workplace, and I can see another plan is clearly.

[19:18] stage to help address that over over time. And you know, given the fact that there's fairly low FA FA ir and a lot of parking lots of room for growth that inevitably will include some more jobs too so. just wanted to address that criticism and I don't personally agree with it, but you know those types of discussions that are going on out there about the these folders so Community plan. couldn't agree with you more Michael and on that note my vision is keep the jobs and add housing. that's that's what the plan is trying to do. Exactly exactly which is great. And Danny. And I said I love the plan i've been supportive of it as its as its developed, and I think kind of solidified and improved you know this is we've had a chance to take a look at it several times now, and you know, in terms of some of the critiques I probably ECHO.

[20:17] What Michael Terry both of what you said, I mean you know we seem to be possibly at the precipice of. Some sort of economic downturn and and and you know, jobs are never a bad thing i'm you know. i've lived I lived through 2008 through 2012 and you know jobs were a great thing back then, and so you know I think I think the whole notion of trying to achieve that balance and having the most. pragmatic and effective vision for an area that doesn't just leave it where it is where it's kind of kind of languishing and and. You know, somewhat of a sort of somewhat of a neutral perspective or just kind of languishing and you know the the structure of the past is not the answer and to try to make these improvements and it's a vision plan.

[21:11] And so you know, without even any sort of vision player master plan there's there's gonna be a lot of. lot of heads, a lot of Mrs and a lot of micro adjustments that go on over time, but I think this is a terrific first start I think it's a really good effort at revision of the Community and i'm very supportive of it. Thanks Danny and others, please comment. Hope you had some back and forth with Kathleen did you read the plan. I did. Unfortunately, I have, I have some comments from her that I haven't had a chance to read yet. I need to get into a better habit of checking the email I set up for for for all this activity.

[22:04] But. yeah I just I just want to say that. I am. My brain kind of goes in a lot of directions. I I every time I read through it, I have new ideas about what i'd like to see an East boulder and it's in you know, probably doesn't matter, what kind of new ideas I might come up with this evening. The. But but i'm also just totally impressed by all the care and research in the work that's been done to put this together and it's really fun to read and i'm excited about. You know that there's there's nice pictures in it and there's great ideas about walkable neighborhoods and man I just hope that we have a lot more walkable neighborhoods in boulder and. Housing close to work and close to jobs, I love jobs too I I i'm not an equity millionaire and I can't I can't go with live in boulder without having a job and.

[23:09] i'm not i'm not really interested in trying to squeeze jobs out of boulder so that you know. anyways that's sort of my point of view yeah so I i'm i'm all for recommending it to city council if that's if that's the implied question. Is that the explicit question. Well, right now, we're just commenting I think would be. Okay well you know craft some wording around that and and take a vote on it, but you know open for just commenting. I appreciate the fact that you got into the issue that this word is considered, which has had his housing availability and housing type of effect the potential. population of boulder public schools, and you know Kathleen provided some stats about you know what schools would be available to people who lived in that area if they wanted to do like a local school.

[24:05] The ones you mentioned, and not a capacity at all, they could use more students. and So I thought she was responsive on that point. Whether the type of housing that could be provided there is the type of housing that families will be attracted to something that you know could be decided much further down the road. And I were a comment on this, but it's playing is very aspirational almost to the point of being idealistic and. You know, there have been concerned raised, I think, by the city's on consultants that there could be a lot of economic reality ahead. Facing implementation of a these ideas you know, a privately owned public space would be an example of that. Are earners motivated to redevelop properties are already occupied and cash flowing there's all kinds of issues like that had that you know, no matter what we recommend.

[25:02] It wouldn't be up to us to decide them, so I think we're really going to be voting on the vision and whether we think it's a good direction to try to follow. Other comments, please. I think what you just said is great, it is a great thing to like try and follow, I think you might be a little bit ambitious in terms of like. The amount of equity it's trying to create, because it is bolder and things are getting more expensive, but I do like the room and they left for equity, especially I was looking at page was it 76 they talked about. arts and culture of the district, and including like even subsidized art studio space, which is great, so I appreciate, like the remaining left for affordable housing and. yeah they just sort of a lot of different examples of equity that could be included, I just hope that they're all attainable, especially by the time that this plan comes to fruition.

[26:02] The comment is kind of a new direction for the city to be embracing arts and culture as a as a key element of economic vitality, which I think it was an incredibly positive direction. Juliet, what do you think. Well, I guess we've been talking about it for a long time and we've seen all the iterations and I think we should vote or recommend. I don't have anything else to add or quite or comments or. I think everyone's said it already. Okay, I agree with you, but we want to be sure that nothing gets unspoken before we do we do vote on it. Jennifer same question for you or your cat you have anything to add.

[27:03] By the way, I apologize for you my suit, but I will fall down on my computer keyboard a better need by nine o'clock. Okay Jennifer is cat seems to really like the plan there's lots of feline amenities in it and so that's good. Well, I think the motion on this would be pretty simpler simple, we could just. say we approve we'd like this plan, we recommend to City Council for adoption there's it seems sufficient or we need to make something more detailed than that. are named names are already on it, Michael like we've adopted it like even Dorset in case you didn't notice that. yeah That was a 90% on conclusion. We still have to make a. matter gotcha. We still have to make recommendations, so I guess, we have to be recommending something would we like to recommend this plan for adoption by city council.

[28:03] And just add planning board in there too. Since i'm bored sorry. Oh yeah those guys. I think simplicity works well here, I think, just saying that you know we support it. We recommend it for adoption is you know just that we support it, hopefully, if we support it nationally, which it sounds like probably say it that way and. And that we. are appreciative of all the effort that went into it and we. recommend adoption by City Council that would be my suggestion I guess. barrister just. Make emotion, with the wording and move on from there. Okay, I like to move that we. Take a vote to state that we. Use unanimously support the plan and we appreciate the. effort and Community input that went into it and we would recommend it for adoption by the planning board and city council.

[29:04] Very good, we have a second. Second, all in favor. Aye Aye. motion does indeed passed unanimously, which is good good nurses in the language of militia. Then sorry Dan can you repeat that, for me so that I can. Send that. Okay uh the housing advisory board enormously supports the plan appreciates. All the staff effort and community and put that went into the plan and recommends. Adoption by the planning board and City Council accordingly. there's something like that that's similar what I said, the first time. Great Mr What if I don't like the new word and. Have at it.

[30:00] looks good to me I don't think we need to vote on it again. So I will send this to Kathleen and she can include it in the memo but my recommendation would be and i'll copy the board as well, but my recommendation would be for Michael to send an email to planning board and city council with that language. which you know sure. that's great. Do that either tonight or tomorrow or the next couple days. Well, thank you all this is really important, so finger appreciate your careful consideration of all these issues. We can go on to Item seven matters from the board pretty much on time, this is a big one it's election time and let's see remind me Procedurally, how do we get this started Jay. I nominate Michael to be chair. I second. All in favor.

[31:02] Go ahead something for this. Wait wait sorry there's a good chance to be nominated I don't want to. foreclose know I have, I have to say something, this is crafty, I think, maybe it's not that crafty but sure, but but. I don't know how many years have been on the board and many other boards and how many chairs we've had an all due respect to the past chairs, they were great and all but, but you are that the Michael Jordan of chairs for. The goat the greatest of all time so I just had this we all unanimously approved you as the Chair, because I really appreciate you being the chair and the meetings have been great. And everything's been so much better since you're doing what you do so, so Michael which has it can be Michael Jordan For just this purpose, and we can. We can vote on I I second to rename. know if you can see the tears running down. I thought I thought that was a. beard is now starting with them and. I thought it was your soup. squeeze out later.

[32:02] that's great Thank you so much, I wasn't fishing for any comments or even to be reelected but now that really liked it, I appreciate it. Are we done there do we actually vote yet. Voting now. i'm on a. Second. Okay, let it be known that the Michael Jordan of chairs have have has been unanimously elected again jump. A vice chair. Who nominates who for vice chair Danny. Are you sure. i'm vice chair now i'm. Really. happy to read to read. renew or whatever is by. Any nominate Danny for vice chair. Second, second. me. But that's okay. All right, Danny has been the greatest here he's like the. Vice chairs.

[33:03] anybody else have a nomination for vice chair. All in favor of keeping the status quo say I. hey. Any graduations man. Okay. Thank you next item is kind of revisiting something we just started last, and this is just a discussion it's not an action item but I thought it'd be valuable to kind of compare our goals to see Councils from the their their retreat discussion. And I did send you all a memo of the day to discharge grease the wheels on this. and You know my my analysis was we really had.

[34:00] Three issues that we could focus on that would be well aligned with counsel and name welcome our input, but that's really just for the discussion. i'm open to hearing anyone's thoughts on these issues it's again it's it's it's not an action item, but it should probably lead to some action. Certainly before September, when the Council is scheduled to have a study session on housing issues which I believe will focus on this missing middle issue that is important to all of us to open it up. it's possible is it is it possible to put those up on the. fast enough to open an email and do this at the same time I don't have that but. yeah you should be able to share your screen. Okay hold on a second. screen sharing I read. read your memo and I liked it I just can't get it on my.

[35:06] happy to do well, Michael if you want. To be coming up to his knees and ankles I used to haha there it is. In work. yeah. I haven't lost a 25 foot jumper yet. There you go. So yeah. i'm going to just stop that metaphor of the ground. The three issues I personally pick to focus on we're at us planning reserve and transit villager boulder junction. So I guess the first question would be here, those are the three we want to focus on that had the most potential for us to make recommendations that can be meaningful. Am I leaving something out, am I missing something and. You know, there were other. Focus areas that came out of the console priorities so.

[36:03] Do how granular do we want to get we just want to say yes, no I don't like this because of that, because we could talk about these four hours, obviously. yeah yeah that's a great i'd love to some advice on how to structure the conversation because, like with anything that that was a good turn to a death March. Well okay oh. We just want to talk about these three and say we like just don't like that and go through everybody is that maybe the easiest thing to do, or. I think we're we're really rather than getting into the issues of each one we knew we should talk about how we can make an impact. Now what we've heard about planning reserve is there's a lot of technical work that needs to happen before. Much of that or any of it can be opened up for future development and a lot of that is related to the boulder rally COMP plan which only comes up every five years, so Jay can you just kind of verify that i'm not going off on that as an acre saving.

[37:03] Absolutely, and I was, I was going to mention that as well, I mean it's. Just initiating the consultant work to do the infrastructure analysis to understand if we could possibly or efficiently and serve that area with infrastructure. Someone wouldn't be consulting team wouldn't even be hired until this fall at the very earliest, which means that that work wouldn't even you wouldn't even have a baseline of information until next year. And then it's a quick it's still a big question of what what is habs role. I know you had talked earlier about wanting to help counsel to framing the issues. But I would just have to think through it's like what is it specifically about these different topics. To address. Any. So, in terms of that particular area, and I think there's two things here there's the specifics of that area and then there's also some of the conceptual notions.

[38:09] Of what we're doing with part of that and and I guess the big thing, and this is, this is something I see popping up and community by Community which is. You know, a open space and the notion of open space of you know, the open space means so many different things, but the notion of open space. Being potential areas for housing and affordable housing, you know, and I think that there's a lot of anxiety even over and see you South kind of my neck of the woods over a lot of that, and so my question would be what's the legal status of that area now. Because I think that plays a big role, and then the other question is, you know what would our role be. and looking at these areas that are maybe Slater designated for different uses and saying, maybe this is something that should be addressed as housing, you know, so I know it's a multi part question but I guess the whole notion is.

[39:03] This is a model, you know what are we looking. What is this now and what would it be, and is that because I think that helps answer the question of whether or not it's something that we should be. stepping into as as had as a housing advisory board well. If I made this this is kind of what I was talking about, do we want to get into the details of each one of these topics. Or do we. Just kind of say yes, Michael we like these topics, or I mean i'll be good either way, I just want to understand, so I can prepare my. My one thing that occurred to me as we're starting to frame this is. You know, would it be, should we keep it at a pretty high level and. make a recommendation to cancel that they hire that consultant and get the ball rolling, you know don't don't delay, I mean because it takes a long time to affect the process.

[40:00] You know that doesn't really get into any policies it just sort of says let's start the process. Right, I guess. So my point is that, depending on what that area is right now. Really kind of helps answer the question, at least for me of what kind of hornet's nest we're looking at with it and. Whether or not that's something to even say because consultants aren't cheap last I looked right to say. Do we not touch this and we let that be something that you know we revisit revisit once there's a policy decision that's made regarding how to address those kinds of areas or you know, is it something that we want to jump into the fray now on yeah. sounds like there's some chicken and egg issues right another thing that occurs to me is. You know, maybe the. consultant. Talks good guy comment, which is probably better than mine tongue then you'll go ahead, I. didn't mean to cut you off that's what the. Reasons okay.

[41:00] Yes, we're here for. So my my high level comment about planning reserve, this is, this is not an area that I know well, so I don't have deep intuitions about it. But. You know what one of the roles that we could play in this, if it is like a. Political hot potato or a hornet's nest. One of the things we might do is is promote a vision of what it could be that that would be a positive statement of the good that could come out of developing it and so. You know I have, I have notions of swinging for the fences fences when it comes to to promoting visions of what could be I mean there's there's so many ways to make beautiful neighborhoods that are compelling and irresistible that people want more of.

[42:02] And so. anyways and and I would love to like dive into like the immediate vision, I have of what of what i'd like to see in boulder but, so let me know if you want me to do that. Can I can provide a little bit of a response to danny's question. Here so just a little bit more context of the planning reserve is pretty well. Well you're muted yourself J. anyway. I did that yeah so as I like I was so the planning reserve, I would say is really well spelled out in our comprehensive plan so you know we have area one. The city limits services are provided we have area to which says we can annex those areas we, and we have the ability to serve them with. utilities and then we have area three, which is basically off limits, except for the planning user.

[43:04] So the planning and reserves sort of that next step right so assuming that we can provide services that is intended to be within city boundaries it's not intended to be counting lands it's not intended to be open space. It is set aside for future urbanization so that said there's a strong policy cases for it, but there are always challenges, even in area to where we can all right already antics so hogan panko us twin lakes, you know pelo park. So use that so it's it is going to be a hornet's nest regardless, and a large community political discussion. But I think what Council has signaled is, we need to start having that conversation. So jack that that's really, really helpful because, for me, to the extent that um you know our recommendation would be like we something along the lines, and I think.

[44:05] i'm going kind of you know terry's question, I think, addressing these things and Philip kind of what you were saying a little bit of a more broader broader brushstrokes and saying that you know we believe. The timing is probably right to start exploring. You know the potential for. Increasing affordable housing and all these areas, including area three playing reserve and whatever initial consultant analysis for things like infrastructure. would really make a lot of sense some something on those lines, I think I can be supportive of in terms of what we're talking about doing here. um you know it does seem like there's gonna be a lot of necessary steps in the process. And I wouldn't want to have to I don't want us to think we're like leapfrogging older area to for some reason, but I think that you know, saying that we encourage, at least, and that we encourage i'm expanding the possibility for housing because, obviously, we all know that we're kind of.

[45:06] squeezed in by the by the president limits is is you know something that could be supportive of as long as it's not open space that we're building on right so. Actual real open space so that's that's, the reason I was asking. Thank you Danny other comments. Well i'm gonna follow up on what to say because I really liked his direction. I feel like if we're gonna make a recommendation Council, we should, it should be high level, but maybe. suggesting a more specific direction. You know. When I think of like the consultant working in early phase of a project, I think there are a lot of analysis and I would be great if this. included some of that visioning like what's this can be and help people imagine what it would look like.

[46:06] How would help boulder and how to solve, or at least address specific housing issue, so I would have a recommendation that had. really would be urging them to move forward don't delay, you know if you're going to hire a consultant get it started, but then, giving them some guidelines on what that consultant would actually do and how that might get community more on board with a future vision for the players are. sounds good. Can we put that on the agenda for the next meeting I would love to I don't think we're ready to tease out a recommendation now but next month. Okay. i'm. Also. Playing reserving before we talk about.

[47:00] at us. If I wanted to see where the the area and question is the 500 acres. Where would I go see a map. drive out to the corner of 28th and Jay and look north and east. The best place to go is our comprehensive plan. So there's. Okay. there's never been one of those prairie dog colony, so you can. Terry. Terry you'll learn you'll learn soon enough that I don't drive anywhere. Oh well, you can walk or ride a bike. And ride your bike indoors to gateway Park, although it's called something different, I think it's everything to the right. Right. i'm. ready to have a similar conversation about at us, I think that was a productive start on the issue, to thank you.

[48:06] I think. Are we talking or. yeah absolutely. yeah everybody knows my opinion on a to us to me at us and tiny homes are somewhat synonymous and i'm all for making it easier to have them and have more of them, and there should be one and every backyard in town. Which is not legal today. No. that's an exaggeration, clearly, but we should make it easier to to have a to use in in on properties in boulder. In my opinion, as much 10,000 times it's The easiest way to get reasonably priced housing, without having to subdivide any new lots are creating more land. We can just use the lots of the land, we have in the streets, that we have and the utilities that we have in the schools and the police, we have an ad rooftops bedrooms and kitchens. Many, many bedrooms just bathrooms kitchens and living areas in thousands and thousands of lots in this town, and we should make that as easy as possible.

[49:06] yeah i'll i'll. follow up on that and say absolutely green and you know and a wash to jack I think he did a lot of work on this, and that was something that he brought up that he personally experienced a lot of times in his. professional life, as well as how cost prohibitive, this was for people and and anything we can do to kind of. help make things more streamlined more efficient less costly less onerous and and the the biggest part with all that, too, I think, from my perspective, the uncertainty that people face when they're when they're trying to go through that when they're making those expenditures too. I think can can be really rewarding and it is the little lion fruit that just sits there because, like tyra saying infrastructure is everything and.

[50:00] The the notion that we're increasing the opportunity for housing in a way, where we can even. You know, we had that discussion about rent control before so one of the things it's really hard to just generically impose rent control restrictions, but when you're providing allowances. that's where you can put in things like you know, am I restrictions, whatever else it may be local workforce housing that's the ticket to do all those things and. You know the countervailing notion of I don't want too many houses by me, I think, is really outweighed by all the benefit that we can face there, and so I think a the US. It also provides I think in terms of middle income, housing, which really is a big thing that you know we've talked about here and a big thing that we're trying to focus on, it is a mechanism that can. provide people who are you know in that middle income bracket the opportunity to stay in to afford to be able to stay in boulder as well. Because it's way they can revenue stream, especially over time, especially if their costs upfront aren't too high, and we had a lot of this conversation regarding.

[51:07] tiny homes, I think this is just a cousin to those conversations and anything we can do to support and help encourage that I am 100% behind. Thank you Danny Julian has her hand up. Please fill up one is up first, if you want to go fill up no go. No i'm sorry talk let's have you go first, then. um I was wondering if anyone could briefly explain what the current process of setting up an ad us because I. talked to someone recently and she was like well I have is perfectly suitable unit above my garage but it's just not worth going through the process and. of doing that and I just I haven't done my own research yet on that. on how that is done but, basically, what I do know about any US I don't see why we don't just like even create incentives for Homeowners to create at us and. Add affordable housing to the city i'm sure people have their reasons as to why we don't want that but um yeah i'm just curious as to what that process is I guess.

[52:08] that's a great question because I have an ad you and I don't understand the process so we'll go. Over. Hoping that our staff liaison will be able to explain what the heck is going on. yeah. So basically the accessory dwelling unit is. It needs to go through permitting process, just like you would need to fork to build a house as to comply with all the regulations, all the front setbacks side setbacks, the solar requirements so you're not shading your neighbors. compatible development standards. But on top of that there's also a land use, for you, so that what I just described as the permitting there was also a land use review, they have to go through, and it costs $450. which actually is pretty cheap compared to a lot of other jurisdictions, but that it can take several months, and what they do is, you have to meet all the criteria and.

[53:08] So you have to basically. You make sure that there's a you meet the minimum lot size that you meet all these other requirements if you're in a certain zone if there's an ad close to you, you may not be able to build one. So they go through a process, they also notify all the neighbors that you want to have build an EDU and the neighbors are given a window of opportunity to provide comments you don't have to listen to them, but at least they can share their concerns. And so, overall, you know it's difficult to say a lot of what we hear is some people have are challenged going through the process. Because our permitting process is not easy, often, you have to hire professional Jacques can tell you a lot more about his experiences and going through the process because he's built at us for clients all over the city.

[54:06] yeah I mean it is a bit of an ordeal but it's done to protect basically the neighbors and then you're going to make sure that that. unit is built in a way that's sensitive to the neighborhood because our whole goal with the US it's sort of this unseen info right so. You walk by a house with an ad you don't even know it's there and we want to make sure it stays that way, so the challenge is how do you balance the right amount of regulation versus. Encouraging people, and I would say, there are other incentives so obviously this is my project back in 2018 so I could talk about this for hours, but I think boulder is done a really good job in the sense that we don't charge enormous check kathy's. Basically, you use the same tab as the main house same thing with electricity everything else. Some challenges doesn't if it's detached it needs to be sprinkler and that adds expense, sometimes as much as $10,000 anyway, I mean I could go on and on, but just gives you a flavor of sort of what the regulations are and why they're in place.

[55:15] Thank you. Thank you, before we go to Jennifer did you mention the park i'm sorry, are you just check see if I turn my sprinkler did you mention the parking requirements. yeah so it depends, so that that was a huge challenge. Prior to the update. So we we did change that so that you can provide off street parking it doesn't have to be paved. And we can also we also wave it if you agree to. Declaration of use that restricts friends to 80% of EMI, so you can get that way you can also get a lot larger eat you if you restrict you right. So their Council was really intent on building incentives program but they left certain things in place, like the saturation minute because of concerns primarily on the hill.

[56:08] of single family Homeowners concerned that more and more homes can get converted to multifamily. Interesting Thank you I think it's jen's turn to come in. As quickly is that are we talking about at us as we were speaking, we spoke about them and previous meetings with jack we're talking about at us with pads. Know we're talking about all kinds of a use for primary buildings yeah and how to encourage more people to either build them or convert. More a portion of their home to them if they have a part of their house that would work with that. And Jennifer i'd say probably it includes those tiny homes, the pads like we talked about because that's that's part of the eight it's a subset of ad use.

[57:00] But they do use stretch, you know much further than that, so I think we're talking about just the whole notion of any and all types of a to use that that might potentially be viable. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you Jen Philippines another comment. I have a question. Is a are at us and occupancy limits closely related, when I when I was on working with bedrooms are for people, I think I think the understanding was that in at you doesn't change the occupancy restrictions of a property so like. Is that true and and, if so, do we need to make recommendations about. loosening occupancy restrictions, because if if it doesn't if it doesn't change the basic. configuration of what's allowed on a property then to me at you seem kind of like a moot point, so I would think that that needs to be addressed, hand in hand with occupancy restriction reform.

[58:03] yeah felt and so can cancel did by the occupancy standards, specifically for us so basically you can have two independent families and all their dependence and their dependence don't count towards the occupancy women. So the that was one of the big things that was the reason why it takes seven Council readings with. Language nailed down so basically. People are yeah basically it just expanded and it's significantly more expanded than pretty much any other situation in the city. that's wonderful and i'm going to expose my ignorance at every turn, so thank you for. me that's great. we're all here to learn as much as anything else so don't feel. at all. worried about that bill yes lots of questions. jenna get your hand up again.

[59:02] yeah I do I can't move on i'm sorry. I need to know more about what are the incentives for people. To even start the process for an ad you why what does that look like because i'm hearing i'm trying to i'm trying to understand like who's within the financial reach to spend. First of all the time and then possibly to contract a professional to like just deal with the paperwork. And you know with the pads we talked about that expense being around $10,000 and then then to throw on another $200,000 for like an ad unit itself just seems like i'm trying to understand like who were benefiting with this um what that looks like thank you. yeah that's a really great question is one of the big hang ups with us.

[60:00] You know construction in boulder now is pegged at least $400 a square foot and even to make a four or 500 square foot studio ad was quite expensive so what's the payback. And a market rate which you might call attainable affordable it's actually doesn't work for a lot of people I mentioned in my memo that Denver is experimenting with subsidizing. At us for Homeowners I think with zero interest loans and they've just. Dedicated their first one last week, so you know that's something we could look at. Again, I think, in my personal experience was it was not expensive to convert existing room in our home because we already had a bathroom, for example. To an EDU and it's been you know, a really short term, they offer us and as provided housing for young professionals in their 20s who are making.

[61:02] Roughly where each year, so that's the kind of when when I think we're looking for with the Ad program it's not that easy to achieve. Before you go to fill up all this mentioned that if we were to make a recommendation on a us and we should spend. More time talking about it, that it should be more specific, it wouldn't be the 30,000 feet of planning board reserve I think Council is looking for more specific direction on this topic. And we know it's going to take some more conversation talk, please. I just just to kind of follow up on your point about your ad you there's a lot of near ad us in town right where the House is. missing a fault, you know where it has a hot plate and a sink, you know, but so not all eight of us have to start from from scratch from ground zero and some some some could be actually very inexpensive to bring online.

[62:02] yeah interesting point. To jay's point about why someone might be Swedish at a user ID there is a fair amount of regulatory oversight, for example. We couldn't rent out if we wanted to go spend a year in Spain, which I like to do we couldn't run out our House and also have the Ad rental has to be an owner occupied. House with an EDU, so I think that is a bit of a fail safe for those who might be concerned that it is will somehow create a landslide toward you know losing the character of single family neighborhoods and then your hand up. yeah I i'm my thought is a. Michael kind of parent awful what you're saying that this this could be. You know, and I guess it's one of those things whenever you know we've talked about the notion of having listening sessions, remember, we go back to. Live meetings, but this could be a really good topic for a listening session I would think because you know there's the perspective of people.

[63:02] In the neighborhoods that you know, maybe pro maybe con with this whole thing, but I mean just to get that kind of direct input in terms of how it can help people and stuff like that in the. People that wind and some of the challenges that they face I just think it could be a really useful listen session I think it's something that. Before we make any recommendations to Council, I agree, you know that we've already pretty well indicated from the 30,000 foot level that we're supportive of them. I think all the tiny homework certainly underscores that but in terms of what else we could do you know, this could be one of the larger things that you know we could put on our agenda, I think, for the next year or so. Absolutely, you know when we can also do a broad brush just to put the idea out there and say you know, we support the idea of legalizing gay to use everywhere, with all the usual. Regulatory bumper guards around shadowing and parking.

[64:00] And occupancy and so forth. But I have a thing we we probably need to spend some time to get a little more fine grained on this one yeah. let's see if someone else had their hand up. Well, I think again. This could be a more specific agenda item for me and we can talk about how we want to tease out our recommendation mad at us, whether we want to form a subcommittee, for example. scheduled listening session or do something else. I think, having somebody explain the economics of to jennifer's point of how it works Michael I don't know if you're you've got to permanently affordable EDU and that's why, if that's why you can't rent it out, if you were to go away, that it has to be owner your home, so you are occupied.

[65:01] I know there's some restrictions about permanently affordable at us and then market rate at us and there that creates. deed restrictions on on a property and I think getting having somebody explain the economics if. you've got a 400 square foot at you, and you can charge 1500 dollars in rent or that's what the market might come in. In the rest of boulder and you're investing $200,000 then your payback is somewhere if I do the math quickly around 11 years so someone's. Investment would pay off in a rental rental income over and 11 year period of time, can I just did a quick math in my head there, but I think. jennifer's point, like the economics, need to be understood of where the benefits and then you it's a capitalist system, we can't force people to build at us to rent. Some people build a to us because they want to have a quote unquote mother in law apartment or they want to have friends to be able to come visit so there's that issue to that is interesting dynamic that exists, we our country is structured.

[66:13] No, I agree, and full transparency or a do is not be restricted or affordable, but we have not raised the rent in five years, so you know where. We feel like we're making some money from it and somebody else has been doing it with probably below market rate rent there are cities that have used everywhere DC is the one that so he's brought up the homes are actually designed around that largely the row homes with English basements. You know, does it again it doesn't mean everybody has to do it and there would be no point in trying to force that, but if we could get see an increase in misplay to use seems like that would be a win if it's hundreds of them that's that's a lot of people will get housing. So, Michael and i'd be happy if you guys pick a month or a meeting spend 20 minutes going over sort of what is the existing regulatory structure, a little bit of history of us in boulder so I mean, I would just basically.

[67:16] You know. dig out all the stuff that we presented to counsel back in 2018. and share that with the group. Have that was actually one of their first recommendations i'm trying to think if anyone is left on ham, for that original recommendation to counsel in 2018 Danny were you around. I don't think so you're muted. I wasn't yeah it was right before me. yeah so i'm having to do that because yeah none of you have heard all this stuff before so. i've got to do that, next month, I think that could be a good agenda item for. Next month. And I agree with that is anyone disagree. Okay, nothing we need to vote on let's move on to the next topic then transit village.

[68:09] You know it's assuming reference it's still. As somewhat early phase of development, although a lot of it has been built. Their challenges their. Lack of transit is one of them. There are some motive motivated property owners who would love to develop more housing they're like they've been held back, for whatever reason, and. They were also been some movement towards and build out at least of adjacent areas like spark 30 Pearl is really an interesting one, because I was very much driven by a city purchase of property. 15 years ago, which is now coming to fruition. and yeah just. open it up for discussion I don't have a specific recommendation and this just want to talk about it and see what you're focusing.

[69:06] On. and I think one of the things that. I mentioned before, about the East oh I didn't know this was on an email thread i'm sorry. The thing I want to say is. One of my concerns about the the transit village or the junction is. Whether or not it's a it's like a pro social community building kind of environment. The buildings look nice they look a little sterile they look kind of uniform I haven't spent a lot of time there, so I don't know what the vibe is. But I just wonder, you know, like like. You know, one of the reasons i'm passionate about housing it's not it's, not just because of the affordability issue, which is number one for me, but also like I want to have beautiful places to live that.

[70:04] have strong social connections and I just wonder if there's you know if there's any anecdotal evidence that we've built. A neighborhood. that's like highly socially connected or or you know fosters you know serendipitous interactions with people who are walking past each other and. And if we have then we should we should announce that and make it known and sit and say what a great job we did if we haven't we should maybe analyze what's going on in that neighborhood and think about ways to tweak it or adjust it so that we do have those kinds of beautiful places. Thanks Danny. um yeah I appreciate those console because I, I agree with that, I guess, my thing with the transit village. And, and this goes to the to bob's top 10 memo to that you attach my college i'm not sure what they want to do with it so it's hard for me to speak to what we should do with it right i'm here they look into re.

[71:08] kind of re analyze it and repurpose it or they just saying what can we do to make it better, it seems to be a really i'm really unclear in terms of what we could do there and I guess that's my that's my initial concern. Okay. Well, from the hip address some pills comments I have my out there just to see what it's like, and you know it doesn't feel like a great urban neighborhood. But the Russian bones there they're in streetscape improvements it's kind of interesting to go there in a warm day and see people walking around and bathing suits because the apartments have pools, and you know you get some of that kind of social vibe going retail is is pretty weak. No it's not going to remind you, these Pearl or any place he likes to go downtown that could be a critical mass issue, and you know the design of the buildings, has been like a real whipping person for.

[72:04] folks that don't like dental development in boulder in that criticism is you know there's it's not totally invalid there's some pretty awesome. architecture in place, making there, but I think the more recent additions like boulder Commons and spark have shown some improvement in that respect. A lot of the development, the early development was really microarray departments there's been more townhomes ended in lately, I have no idea, the demographics, of people moving in there, it seemed definite improvement in the streetscapes but i've heard from folks that. own some of the property of stay with you know they would like to move forward with redevelopment and add more housing and they feel like they need more encouragement. From the city how that translates into a recommendation from him I don't have any idea of yet, but I think it's worth talking about.

[73:01] Michael. Hello. Michael yeah. Michael Terry. The. I think the ship is pretty much sailed when it comes to the transit village, I mean the great majority of its built, I mean yeah there's still some to be built. But the lion's share of it is there and it's established and with the last you know the rest of the polo former policy being under construction and built now. And the REV done, I mean it's it's what you see, is what you get there, I mean there's not a lot of change, I mean what's left a little bit on 30th as you go North across from steel yards. You know there's not a ton to create it's created it's there um that's that's my thought i'm whether it's good or not I mean i'm an old boulder guy and that's nothing that of what I would thought boulder to be, but if you look at.

[74:04] Everything that's written in words about what you want to create what we want to create it's all there you can walk out your front door on any number of different types of living situations townhomes. apartments condos you name it and walk across the street, to get food coffee get your hair done go to work. recreational areas on the second floor with the pools, I mean it's all their dance be rooftop deck great views. I mean retails across the street basically 29 streets or retail, for the most part, you know I do agree that the spark of the REV deal, I mean the retail is a little weak. retells the bad word in the world, right now, you know brick and mortar retail so it's not so much that project, as it is. The whole country's retail brick and mortar is hard right now but. When I walk around there and I spend some time there, and you know underground parking so you don't see the cars on the surface.

[75:02] Buildings up on the streets everything that you can write down in theory about what you want things to be is there, but for me when I walk around there. I just don't feel it I don't feel it I don't know how else to say it, you have buildings bulky some of the architecture is phenomenal I think some of us really bad, but that's kind of how everything is when it comes to building things architectural such personal preference, you know. But, but I don't from back with all that thing from a hab perspective I don't know how much influence we really have I mean the transit villages developments their. plan is there, you know, are we looking to modify the rules for the remaining half a dozen parcels of land is that we're trying to do to make them. Different you know to kind of fill the gaps I don't know I just don't know what our role is in the transit village, given that that thing was valued. neighborhood meetings for years and years and years analysis built out, I mean it's there what you see is.

[76:03] What we went through and subcommittee meetings and all that stuff neighborhood meetings and all that for years and years and years I guess what i'm missing is what's our role and trying to influence it at this point. Great and it was a good comment so. Two things there is quite a bit to be built out if you go all the way to fit it all parkway and i'll just. Just read the Council comments is summarized by Bobby ah it's about it's all about TV APP to. Areas west of the train tracks and long northumbria street there are no definitive plans yet for business or housing and T back to. But Council wants to at least launch the Community engagement and rammed fulfilling the vision of the plan developed that approved 15 years ago, so I guess that might suggest a spot for comment. We could also decide where the heck it's.

[77:00] Not something we're going to have an influence on, but it seems like that's still a pretty big chunk of land. and store near in between is going to go down, you have your hand up. yeah um. My friends, that live over in this area i've been over there and. I just to visit them, but I still hanging out over there, and my feelings on I agree with Terry I mean it is kind of what it is. And what it is, to me, is it's not seamless it's a to me it feels like it missed the mark um. To me it seems super fragmented so you've got some communities, like some apartments that you have to basically need like a treasure map to find go down these like little side streets um, and so they just don't.

[78:02] Then you've got like empty lots next to. You know, new development, maybe they're building maybe they're not just seems. yeah it seems really choppy to me and I when I think of. When I think of like walkability and I think of communities, I think of. I think of that area. kind of all looks the same there's no real character there on the buildings may all have the same. So I mean I guess that's really those are really my comments and then the other thing that I had emailed in about is you know. I understand the cost effectiveness of using the word frames, but I mean we have higher more and more wildfires happening and i'm like really concerned about my friends that live in 30 Pearl and other apartment buildings.

[79:02] If I just wanted to stay back, thank you. Any. Oh you're muted day. Sorry, I guess, the one thing you know which would you learn in your mouth michaels the whole it's it's called like transit village or whatever and there's. Really, a lack of transit there too, and so I mean maybe the whole notion of saying you know let's address the fact you know there's no beeline our CDs kind of forgotten about it um. You know, like tired of saying brick and mortar recals is you know monumentally changed and we don't even know you know how that's gonna play out over time and and maybe from those things you know we're happy to play a role and trying to. figure out a vision for how to either you know see it through or repurpose it and something along those lines, maybe, maybe just with that sort of generality.

[80:07] I think there's something to be said for redressing it, but I just you know, again, I think the TV set for it it's kind of hard that sort of saying before it's hard to. You know change course, but to the extent that we do I think we just say we'd love some guidance on that and if that's you know something we can help with maybe that leaving it at that is a good way addressing it. yeah yeah I mean it does mostly guess that you know, maybe the future planning is not around transit. system whole idea of a high density district, which is i'm often in favor of that make new maybe it doesn't make sense if it's not going to be served by regional transit or local transit. Or, I mean I love transit area development, but I think the the key term in that in that title is transit right. Good. Well i've transit, then it kind of takes away from the whole notion of transit area development.

[81:01] yeah. Can I share a map of the area. I think I should clarify things a little bit for folks and see if I can pull it up. Wrong on one. Have a very quick comment in the meantime I just one thing in defensive of transit, so to speak of a boulder junction is that bike path that goes from. The googleplex. To that to the east side of the neighborhood is is very nice and. it's a part of my route making you know plans now and. So that that's my favorite thing about the about the neighborhood is they did a good job with the connections and you can you can get up to goose creek pretty easily on the street and it doesn't feel dangerous. To North north, south, east and west both both seem to work for me.

[82:03] yeah so thanks for that, and I would just say you know it's still fairly Nice and community, so you really need those people to move in and. and be part of building that Community and what you hope to see out there, but just to clarify so phase one is pretty much 90% built out so it's this here's Pearl parkway it's the block to the south. here's the railroad tracks of belmont 30th so when when Councils talking about phase two they're talking about this stretch on the other side of 30th and then this whole area. west of the railroad tracks army East of the road track sorry. And that is primarily. Industrial right now so although there's a vision for it in a plan and TV APP. The city didn't pull the trigger basically on changing the zoning to enable that vision to happen, so there I think that's what they're talking about in terms of planning process to figure out all right is that the right vision for the rest of the area to continue that what we're seeing.

[83:15] As part of phase one is that helpful is that your understanding Michael or. You know yeah and thank you for. Very verifying my statement which I sort of sort of made up that there's still a lot of arable land in the transit. And you know the idea rezoning could be our sweet spot for make a recommendation we just have to say when the right time. To do that would be. it's similar to area three I would argue, because there has to be a whole process. mm hmm. I will be involved in that, but i'm not it's not clear to me what have involved.

[84:00] Until that Community engagement process is kicked off. Right so maybe it's. Maybe it's one recommendation might get the ball rolling yeah. that's really helpful that's. helpful, thank you. Okay. And the piece about transit to I mean keep in mind we're talking 3050 years and we better have a light rail. out to boulder 31. or two D is not going to exist anymore, I can guarantee. You. You remember the light rail idea of coming through there, but you couldn't one small problem that nobody thought of you can't get on and off of it, where they thought you could get on and also it wasn't up to nature. yeah. We decide whether or you could you know load and unload you actually couldn't do that they're.

[85:05] Small problem small. This is an aside, but there's a very good podcast available for free from cpr called ghost trained the talks quite a bit about the. evolution of SP creation of strengths you evolution and fast tracks, the early thinking of transformative development and all the reasons that there is not a train stopping in boulder now in that predicted for another 25 years or whatever it is. ridiculous thing ever, how can I. mean going from boulder Denver. How does that go listen to. Go strain you got it so. Good question. And it's been paid for already by all of us. we've been paying. yeah we've paid for it. You guys. they're not they're out. On earthly positive.

[86:01] Well then, issues addressed directly in and even linkedin goes train, I really do recommend it. it's great background, so thank you. Thank you Mike let's go to do and I appreciate I would ever guess the. The purpose of this board is to talk about getting more housing produced, but I really appreciate the fact that you're all well rounded people, and we can talk about place making in transit and. All the other things that in schools and all the other things that make a community, because just building housing is not the answer has to be done, done well. I personally am ready to move on to Item eight unless I would like any more discussion about this, I think there's been really productive, thank you for your comments. stood. out to me yet to turn it over to stay at AJ. Michael. Do you go back. Oh sure. i'm sorry to backtrack but so next step before the stationary i'm into that to esteem, do you want to talk about that more.

[87:05] Again, I think, similar to the planning reserve, we should put it on the agenda to develop a recommendation if we're ready to make one. At a pretty high you know 30,000 foot playing. let's do it, but mosquitoes element to think about it. i'll combine that with Eric. Through planning reason, I think it could be one recommendation yeah so. Unless anyone wants to vote on tonight. Good good thing so. took a big risk. Thank you. Jay Thank you. And i'm up next right. You are. Night can I backtrack one more time real quick yeah I think the purpose of our last agenda was open discussion for any of the seven items, but you would kind of highlighted five and then three of the five that you thought were appropriate because of they address middle income.

[88:11] Is there going to be a time, are we going to. You know, talk about any of the other ones, or because. there's at least one in that that i'm kind of really. Down about. I think we're well ahead of schedule and i'm surely I mean I didn't but those three out is biblical tablets so sure let's talk about it. yeah so. there's a paragraph and Bob yates's memo about titled density and parking and. i'm not sure what the the whole context of that of that discussion was and maybe what they actually had in mind in terms of like likely policy directions that might come out of that. But what one of the things that i'm kind of obsessed with is the notion of a of a pilot or some neighborhood that that tackles.

[89:12] Car light living in a meaningful way with respect to. Sharing cars, having very little parking and I would I would love to explore possible neighborhoods are possible developments that. That you know just just as a maybe it's just a visionary kind of a thing, but. We have a climate crisis and our housing is related to the climate, not, not only in the fact that. We have we have all this sprawl happening at the at the wildlife. You know the rural urban edge, you know. Which increases lots of increases that the vehicle miles traveled and all that.

[90:01] But we also even in boulder which is dance by Colorado standards is is just sort of handed over to cars and we don't really make it easy or. compelling you know irresistible for people to live without cars and boulder, and so I just I just feel like this whole notion of density and parking. Despite the fact that, like I didn't I didn't hear the broader conversation it, for me it just triggers this this thing about. Are there are their projects that we can propose or their outlets that for discussion in this in have where we can explore ways to make it irresistible for people to give up the cars, so that we can save the planet. Great comment, there are there was a really interesting New York Times article about portland in the Sunday Times in portland has been the.

[91:04] big city means I see leader in prioritizing bicycles pedestrians and translate over cars and they're now reaching this point of contention around that. yeah we got this dense core where you can live without a car if you're a rich white person, but everyone else's in neighborhoods that. are lower income, the rely on cars for people to get to work, and so forth, and they don't have sidewalks they don't have the bicycle infrastructure so it's kind of been raised as an equity issue. it's really interesting it's happening in Denver to there are a few developments around the world that are car light or car free, it would be really interesting to highlight that for boulder actually get someone to pile of it. Not quite sure how our type of board get that conversation going but it's really an important discussion Danny.

[92:01] Julia. What I would say, is, I think that yeah I really appreciate those comments, and I think it's absolutely correct my concern has always been about the fact that transit I grew up in in New York. horrible in Colorado in general, and certainly around boulder and we just talked about the whole issue with the fact that we still don't have a light rail. And we're just talking about the transit Center, but I think it would be a interesting thing for us to if there's some way. To have this on some future agenda, I know we were just talking about the whole notion of what you know changing around you know, and since it did come from from this, you know. From from bob's top 10 memo they're changing that what the implications would be in terms of making housing more attainable if we change around some of the concepts regarding density restrictions which certainly caused a lot of this and then and then parking as well.

[93:00] You know understanding that you know, there needs to be transit to go to a Carlos community but there's still you know for looking 1020 years down the future. I think it could be helpful, I have some sort of agenda item, are we talking about that, or at least you know, stimulate some conversation on that. As something that we're paying attention to to because it does absolutely relate to attainable housing and a lot of ways. Thank you, Julian. accident on my hand raise I was just fidgeting but. Thanks anyway. yeah well you know. I mean it's it's embedded in boulders ambitions and some extensive policies, you know let's have 15 minute neighborhoods let's have a carbon neutral city. Again, my question it's an open one is how do we bring these concepts to the attention to the decision makers, what kind of information and case studies can we provide, and you know how did we do, that is our role as an advisory board we're new primarily coming on policy direction so.

[94:10] I don't know, maybe we should. Do is do a session just on. 15 minute neighborhoods and how can we can, how can we achieve them with balanced attainable housing. yeah here's I I think um but I can't remember the guy who came and talked about finding housing and first use the. veteran and he was doing that project I think up in longmont um if there's somebody that you know some some some group that would be interested in. Presenting on that, I mean that would just be a good start, because I mean it's it's it's awfully nebulous right now, but you know um I think having those initial conversations on tiny housing help. develop a lot of policy and insight and stuff like that, for this board and hopefully for the Community so maybe that maybe it's just something as simple as that.

[95:05] Because I don't know I don't know that a listening session on that It just seems to be like it would be unruly to me. and there's not. Really, some direction yell at us it's like what do we need to do with those you know that issues a little maybe a little too open ended, but certainly we have time in the agenda to have. You know, half hour hour, whatever it is, have somebody come and do, or you know, a couple of entities come do presentations on that might be nice. yeah i've certainly heard good presentations that are analytical in fact based about like what what do certain housing densities and urban formats, with access to transit mean for vehicle miles traveled. The amount of money that households put towards transportation versus paying for their basic housing needs, I mean there is some some really good. For new data and data around that.

[96:01] Maybe it's pretty good maybe needs to be updated, but you know we could find someone to talk to us about that and information, try to share that knowledge. Can I just add what you're describing I would say. The city has has piloted this helping balsam. So the fact that we, you know going to have district energy all the parking is shared unbundled paid for high level of affordable housing adopted a form based code for. which emphasizes, are designed around the pedestrian as opposed to the automobile. Providing mobility hubs so I mean it same thing with 30% so you know that's a project that's already built and it's kind of the model as well with form as code so. it's a lot easier when it's the city that owns the land and as a lot more control but we're using those as demonstrations, to try to show that there is a different path forward.

[97:08] We don't have to follow the traditional development model. Anyway, that's one ship. Would there be interested in bringing in a guest speaker for future meeting near future meaning to say you know here's a difference in mode splits based on urban form places that are actually you know they've been built in have some history. And longitudinal knowledge. I think it'd be great I mean even and you know if we don't have to look any further than you know projects within the city and maybe have somebody from the city come and talk about that, I mean it could be a good starting point. I can't hurt. No bring some suggestions to the next meeting. Beer consideration.

[98:03] Thank you i'm glad you brought that up. Any other those items anyone wants to discuss before we move on to automate. Okay. management staff. K has been chomping at the bit to present it so we're going to turn it over there. you're on mute you know now I see you didn't um yeah I can do that I just. Have a couple things I want to share. Before we talked about the dashboard. So the first one is planning board is meeting tomorrow night and hopefully appoint a new liaison So hopefully next week or next meeting will have someone from planning board join us. I can't guarantee that but that's the hope and then I also just got word today that this board will have the option to return in person for the June meeting.

[99:08] So what I need to know from the Board is, if that is desirable, so the option is stay completely remote or move to in person hybrid so that means and I clarified this today. That you still have the option of participating remotely if you're not comfortable being there in person or you know, for whatever reason, so we just need to give feedback to our boards and commissions staff what direction this board would like to go. yeah Michael you're muted to yeah. Very simple words the Boards will meet in person, but the staff in the public will be virtual is is a more than one permutation to that. Unless permutations so yeah I mean theoretically if you're there some staff have to be that some someone asked to you know run the meeting for you, so we will likely to tiffany and I will be there if it's in person.

[100:17] But it's possible that that if you have a staff presenting they might be remote. Okay well not to influence anyone else's personal decisions but i'm totally comfortable with meeting. In person Jennifer has her hands range. i'd love to meet everyone in person, but for me personally i'm doing this for my home is it works better for my schedule. hey Thank you. let's go down the line Julia. I think it's a great idea um what do we meet in the Council chambers. yeah exactly. Like fun.

[101:00] um yeah so. It. sounds great. i'm brief briefcase. No, but it sounds like a good idea, I, like the hybrid option to keep people comfortable. you'll have a nameplate and everything hi. Philip anything. I was gonna make a joke about a nameplate. Like can I get a nameplate. I thought that would be funny now the serious request. Everyone will have everyone already, I believe, has a name plate. And we're getting new ones ordered for our newest members. For $15 extra you can be a boss with script. i'll show up i'll show up just so I can sit behind my name. well. Very well, you think.

[102:02] Jerry what's your opinion. well. Meaning person or would you stay virtual. Well, in person hundred percent man hundred percent in person I don't ever want to look at anybody else on a screen ever again in my life. You feel the same. Nor do I want to look at myself on a screen on this. upper right here, I don't want to look at myself anymore at all. For. me. I think I think it's great of like if I get a name chain that would be awesome. But. yeah and I think it's great I mean I just. know. yeah and hybrid have the budget for the change sorry. Okay, I was just go script that. I think I think it's time, I think it can really help us effectuate a lot of things we're trying to do here and. hybrids great you know it gives people the option gives them the flexibility or whatever, but uh you know I think it's time and you know we gotta get out that's all 100% supportive it.

[103:10] Great and Jennifer being virtual means your cat can continue to attend so that's actually a plus do yeah. I think, having the hybrid option is great, because I think we're going to continue to see surges and varying levels of comfort with being. In public I personally have an immune compromised person in my life, so I have to be extra careful and. But I do think that, for the purposes of listening sessions, those are really impossible to do with a with a group and and they need to be done in person, so I like the flexibility they're. Great and thank you, so the public would have the. Right to attend in person.

[104:00] For comments and to listen right. They have the option of now, remote or in person, just like you would great. Okay, well, it sounds like most of us will be seeing each other in person in June. Which is great, and I respect everyone's decision on this and. Jay keep going yeah. And we have a member, you get fed to so will resume meals and. that's a great time for people to show up. You know 1520 even 30 minutes in advance and just spend a little bit time chatting. Before the formal meeting. All right. i'll get on that, so the last thing I just wanted to give you a quick tour of our updated dashboard so it used to be in tableau and with the city moving everything towards Microsoft we switched to power bi so in doing that.

[105:06] There was quite a bit of data cleanup that we had to do actually so the numbers have pivoted change slightly, but I just wanted to remind you that this is here, so this is on boulder. boulder measures, the website city tries to track all of the key indicators to see how well we're doing affordable housing, we have. Housing units and demographics and one of the nice things about this is it's a bit interactive so you can click on different data points, and it will resort the rest of the day. So it's great So if you want, so it tells you how many are homeownership versus rental you can you know click on one of those and it will tell you, you know exactly what the percentages. farther down well before I talk about the interactive stuff, let me just go through it really quickly there's also a homelessness deck dashboard.

[106:06] with lots of great information on homelessness so we've been tracking shelter utilization and then there's also Community profile which i'll talk about the last. So lots of information is out there, so if you're ever wondering how many units, we have a permanently affordable housing, this is where you go we're doing towards meeting our goal, you know right now we're at a point 1%. shows are track over time, so it shows you how many units, we had in the back in 1991 what that percentage was the overall housing stock. It shows you how many units were added each year, so both rental and affordable. rental and homeownership yellow is homeownership each of those years and tells you the housing type. multifamily condominium single family, all the way down tells you, the number of bedrooms as well it's a little surprising just how many three and four bedrooms we have in more.

[107:09] Their number of units by income that is served by the different. affordable housing units. So the different income categories, based on Am I also explains what am I, is, I think everybody here knows what it is, but it also shows you the percentages, but the maximum in household income is associated with it. shows the one map that hopefully will be interactive soon, but where all those units are how they're sort of distributed throughout the city. And sort of how we classify all the different permanently affordable units so both of course new construction, but quite a few have been through acquisition. lot of those units were acquired and then had to be rehabilitated and then over time we've also rehabilitated existing units, those are mostly public housing units and then we have this.

[108:06] Strange category likely to remain affordable and that just means it's owned by one of our before it will happen in partners like a. golden West so it's a beds for seniors or older adults, so we don't necessarily have a covenant, but we know that they're owned and operated by a trusted partner, and that they will remain affordable in the future. So any any questions about what I just showed you, and then the interactive part is kind of fun too, so if you wanted to look at 2009 ownership units. It will modify all the other data to show you. How many of those units were you know what were they were they multifamily like that year, there are 29 condominiums that were built they'll tell you which incomes, so is mostly moderate middle a couple low.

[109:00] And then eventually will show you the map as well, so you can basically click on any of this information, and it will sort of filter the rest of the information for you. Any questions about all that going Danny. I just say I think it's great I went around and mess around with it a little bit previously and. The interactive aspect of it, I think, is phenomenal there's so many shitty government web pages out there, and so I think this is something that really kind of you know, allows people to really dive into it so i'm. very impressed and and appreciate it, I think it's great. anyone else have questions before I move on quickly Julia. I think it's fantastic Thank you it's great to have all this data at our fingertips and i'm sure it's great for you, too, because. I had to answer a lot of these questions over and over and over again from various people.

[110:05] want to. work. yeah very well done, thank you. Can I guys i'm sorry. I just had one more question, do you track this relative to other cities of our size and how we compare in terms of these achievements, because I. I think, to I tend to think that we always we always want to strive to do better, but you look at this, you can do you have a sense of how well boulder has done visa V other communities. I mean, though, and assume that other cities actually track their information, the same way we do, which isn't necessarily the case. And it's taken us years to get to this point to I mean i've been working on this, probably for five years now. So that we can have decent data to be able to report and and consistent they used to change constantly like every year we'd have to go back and reorder our data.

[111:03] And it was very, very time consuming so I mean you have to be as jurisdiction, you have to be really committed to it and honestly i've not seen other examples of other jurisdictions doing the same so it's hard to compare. phil pool. Yes, there is there any chance there'll be a dashboard that has all housing that's just affordable housing. um yeah. i'll show you another dashboard. In a minute it doesn't have the same amount of detail. Of one to share the demographics page so it's a little bit buried but i'll be here you'll notice there's housing units and then there's another one for. Demographics. And I think this is, this is the one that tells even a more powerful story, so it tries to humanize the the units, so those units are homes right and we have about 8600 people.

[112:00] living in affordable housing and if you put that in perspective it's about one out of 12 residents in boulder so we're serving a fairly large segment of the population and it just gives you some demographics on who they are, how much they earn both are renters and for homeownership. And this is really quite amazing just the if you look at the rental stock that we have just you know, half the people are earning between zero and 30% Am I. And 31 to 60 is 41% so to me, that is quite the accomplishment, because if we just relied, for example, if we just relied on you know exclusionary housing all of those units would be built at 60% am on and, from my perspective, the people that were trying to serve are those lower incomes. It also gives you a sense of the occupation of those people living in those different groups and then this one, I think, is the most fascinating.

[113:02] The race, ethnicity and It just shows how with affordable housing, it increases the overall diversity of our city, so it compares to lives in affordable housing versus the city as a whole. And that's about it. it's great day. when calculating the Am I people live in rental housing does that take the student population into account. Well, the the folks living in affordable housing. Oh i'm sorry this is just people look out for closing down okay. But it does take into account. The city as a whole, when comparing it. yeah and I should have that answer for you, but. How our students can. They are factored in, but it's it's different somehow and I don't know off the top my head I can't remember.

[114:04] And let me look that get back to you. Well, thank you i'd like to make an individual proposal that. No one ever uses the term housing unit again we're really talking about homes here and that there's hope you guys, you should shoe So if you don't need to vote on that just keep it in mind. Anything else on the dashboard either presentation or. Questions yeah. I have a question I have a question slash request. And when I. When you bring up the notion of how many bedrooms are in each of these homes. I would, I would just guess that there's not many. Three or four bedroom homes, where it's there's empty bedrooms. And I also have a kind of working narrative around large homes in boulder often being under occupied or are mostly bacon.

[115:06] And i'm just curious to know if you have data about bedrooms for housing in general and and the vacancy rates related to at the bedroom level, you know, like. Because it's just seems very common to have a very large house and have one or two people living there, and so I i'd love to have some data around that. yeah so our. Do formal housing so busy you can't qualify for a tour a three or four bedroom home if you're only a single or person or a couple, so you know. That that's that's my work. yeah, so I would say our our vacancy bedrooms is extremely low. But the homeownership is a different story, because you, you get preference for your home.

[116:00] With more people in your household but that can shift over time right, so we don't make require you to sell down so we don't have great data exactly and on how many people are in it, but I think you can assignments it's significantly higher than the general population. And the other thing that we learned about that from the school district presentation was the you know the areas where. Affordable affordable housing has a significantly higher percentage of households with children and much higher school enrollment as well, so I thought that was really interesting as well. And then fill up just to to your previous question this, you can see this, this is a Community profile that's also updated annually that shows the overall population square miles Oh, this is where you can see the planning reserve film so it's that lighter green right there.

[117:00] area three planning reserve right there shows you the city population with the projected population is going to be based on the last COMP plan and the projections that were made same thing with employment. shows you the affordable housing units. This one, I think, is really interesting and then you'll see it updated with the new number for 2021 which is 1.25 million, I believe, for single family home. But just basically illustrates the difference between the growth of single family homes and attached homes as compared with income. New housing units completed over time attached versus detached and then the statistic you mentioned earlier fellow 52% renters vacancy rate. Jobs meeting patterns, as they change annually land use by zoning and then top 10 employers, as well as new net new non residential square footage.

[118:03] So anyway, I just wanted to share all that information is out there it's tracked annually and it's just a great resource so that's it any other questions. Again, good work. Okay, if there are no other questions we'll move over to new to Item nine, which is a debrief the meeting I think we had a really productive meeting, thank you all for or hundred percent attendance and for all your great comments. Looking ahead to May. think we have a couple of possible agenda items is one ground truth that with you, we think we might make a recommendation, or at least start to phrase a recommendation on playing reserve and boulder junction. Possibly urging the city to move forward with the first steps in realizing some visions in those areas, we want a presentation actual presentation at us.

[119:10] What did the current policy say what kind of numbers are we getting with a to us, as have been an increase in at us, since the last round of reform around those policies and maybe some future directions for a new policy. That we could shape into a future recommendation, and that would include all kinds of at us attached detached and tiny homes on wheels. We have discussed getting an update on the homeownership deed restriction Program. How many homes, we have a kind of price point. How is that working. You know, there has been some some static around that of late related to you know, is an equitable system and so forth, but think for now we're just looking for the information.

[120:06] And I will bring some recommendations on a guest speaker and what we might call Carlisle neighbor design see if there's something we can investigate further shape a recommendation or listening session around. i'm sure I left some important future agenda items off, so please feel free to jump in or suggest. Okay. Anybody have something to add on the meeting debrief. Okay calendar check our next meeting. How does this fit with the Memorial Day schedule Where would we be meeting.

[121:02] May 25. Great before Memorial Day. Maybe run the boulder boulder. play in a garage band the howling commandos, and will be a 20th and language and so we're going to go buy. With that dog in a motion to adjourn. Some of. I can sure as being ever, by the way. All in favor returning. Thank you all and see you next month, and that will. Once we get our agenda, I will send out a another note kind of prepping and. What we might expect to do with that agenda if that's OK, with everyone, so thank you again appreciate the support for continuing to lead this sport and I think we have some good times as with political support for what we want to do with housing, thank you.

[122:07] Thanks Michael. hey.