November 19, 2020 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:00] Pressing record. Here we go. See, perfect. There's someone in the waiting room so That's Julie. I'm going to make her co Perfect. Okay, great. Okay, there we go. So I think we've got everybody. Great. Let's start this meeting call this meeting to order. I'll run through rock and roll call here. I think we've Full House. All right, Danny Theodore room. Eric Blue and Julie Boone Here, Terry polos Yes, Mason, we're Here. Jack Julian's here. And Judy nog. Here. Oh, beautiful. Here we go. Full House. Good to see everyone I'm Let's review the agenda for 10 nights.

[1:01] And does anyone other than myself, have any additions or you know modifications. No. Okay, I would like to make a motion to add an agenda item after five see to Discuss and the special session that Governor polis has has called for, I have some discussion points and I have a motion to make. So I'm hoping that we can approve. To Move that and add it to be agenda. 20 a second or something. Yes, Danny. Hello. Oh, so you said. Second. All in favor. All right. Motion passes. And

[2:00] So Jay, will that just be added to the revised agenda. Okay, perfect. Awesome. Okay, let's see. And now we can move to public participation unless there's any other amendments, I don't think that anyone's here to speak. No. Okay. Sad next time. Okay, great. SO WE'LL GO TO THE APPROVAL OF MINUTES. Then from October 28 2020 has everyone had a chance to review that any changes edits. Right. Seeing none. Can I get a motion to approve the minutes or maybe I'll make a motion. Can we get them to get a second Second. All in favor for proving A minute from October 2025

[3:01] Right passes unanimously, I think think that was Great. And, well, that was quick. Okay, we can move to matters from the board, then I'm so thrilled that Julie and Sarah are here from will Julie is here from Africa, and then Sarah is here from the county. Thank you both for being here to talk a little bit about the keeping families housed program and other efforts. So I'm going to turn it over. To you both. just excited to hear, hear what you have to say, then we can ask them questions. I'm gonna share my screen. So I'm Julian Sarah we show a very short video Which might help set the stage for their talking points, but I think the idea is just give it a really quick overview and then allow the board to really ask questions and, you know, dig deeper into any topics that you might be interested in. So can you guys see my screen.

[4:16] Now, Here we go. Perfect. Share. Here we go. haves and have nots. My granddad always says Daddy's big break my brother told me I was born into the hundreds of families experiencing homelessness and border. This will be buying couches and share beds in somehow even sleep in the car wasn't always this way but we move more times than I can count.

[5:01] To 400 kids in town. It doesn't always have a permanent address. All I know is that first bus stop in the morning last me after you And in between. And I ride and wonder why we live so far from school. I'm one of 20% of kids that we can live for free and reduced lunch in Boulder. Sometimes it's warm and cold. But I'm always still hungry. So every afternoon I ride the bus back to Grandma's house we wait in line to make it for big box. I am part of 1600 other families and services to make ends meet, but it isn't because you're trying Lots of different things. My daddy builds all day long. Gone, for I wake up in the morning he picks us up from grandma's house in the afternoon. In between, I wonder why they have to work so hard to cut coupons and with me downs in using the Internet, the library in camping summers.

[6:08] were lucky my mom tells me my parents have enough money. My sister says, and I trust my sister. She gets dressed and helps me with my homework. My Kids in Boulder doesn't know. Next year Mama tells me That you're my granddad always says

[7:43] Thanks for showing that Jay very much. Appreciate it. And thanks again, Julie, an alpha for I'm making that video so The city after give us the credit, we Yes, we production. Yes, that's right.

[8:00] The city. The city contributed to that. So, um, yeah. So Julie and I are going to just kind of go over some of the, the family homelessness work that that we Work on Julie and I are co chairs. What we call the family homelessness subcommittee. And it's a subcommittee of the family Resource Network, which is a Julie might be able to explain a little bit more about that. But it's a it's a network of providers that that work on family issues from homelessness to child care assistance food assistance, really, it covers all social determinants of health food, housing, childcare Medicaid medical coverage education. And so one of the subcommittees and that's pretty well formed under the FR n is the The family homelessness subcommittee so Julian I share co chair that Julie is the executive director of EPA EPA works a lot on family homelessness issues and prevention, I'm

[9:09] The supportive housing programs manager at Boulder County housing and human services. So most of my programs that I run are assisting families with rental assistance in case management. To ensure that they either get out of homelessness or are prevented from entering homelessness. So together we work on the subcommittee that's comprised of EPA and then the other family resource centers, our center and sister Carmen. Our domestic violence agencies span and safe shelter for Progressive Alliance. I'm sorry span and then say shelter of same brain Valley. As well as our McKinney Vento liaisons from Boulder Valley School districts and same brain Rally School District and have some representatives from housing and Human Services reps from the city of Boulder and the city in Longmont, and I think I covered everyone

[10:03] Bridge house and Say I'm The one in Longmont I'm forgetting, but they are all with us on the subcommittee. And we convene every quarter. I'm as a large group and then we have working groups that are working on various things based on an assessment that was done in a work plan that was created. So I just wanted to share It was sharing my screen with zoom, but we'll see how I do Share that one. Just can folks see this Okay, so this is something actually that Julie created and It just kind of captures everything. If you think about family homelessness. It is a continuum, where we're starting from folks who are either unstable, the house or are in some ways, experiencing.

[11:02] Facing eviction that's where a lot of resources go where we want to prevent families from being homeless because the rental market is is as it is here in Boulder County on hole. And especially in the city of Boulder, usually with a vacancy rates hovering anywhere from zero to 3% it's really important to make sure that folks stay in their homes. When we can ensure that that can happen. So we help people with short term rental assistance and even case management at that point to ensure that they can retain housing. And not lose it. And then we also work with if families do experience homelessness, then we don't have a family shelter in Boulder. County at all. And that has been pretty intentional because shelters are very expensive to run and operate and they are not an ideal situation at all for families in kind of a congregate setting. So we do not have an emergency family shelter instead of the FRCs and the

[12:09] The DB agencies. Others have access to hotel vouchers. The deep domestic violence agencies do have emergency shelters, because often folks are immediately fleeing Very dangerous situations and and need a place to stay. That night, so between the DV agencies and the hotel vouchers, we feel for the most part we have, we are able to accomplish that emergency response. There are some gaps. But we really are working on shoring up our hotel vouchers as much as possible so that we can funnel resources into housing, because as we know housing solves homelessness shelters, do not And then if you go from emergency response to temporary housing a supportive services.

[13:01] The idea here is to stabilize a family and then identify what resources they might need long term, can they just get a few months of rent assistance or even a year or two of rental assistance with some intensive case management case management and then be able to make rent payments on their own or find a more affordable living situation or do they need something more permanent like a housing subsidy of some sort. Of move into a family self sufficiency or other various programs where they can some get some more intensive supports and So then the long term subsidized housing is is really the the golden ticket is the hardest to get especially for families, um, It's the Section eight vouchers that you might hear about it might be some sort of project based housing that you might hear about which those are pretty rare in Boulder County.

[14:01] But the idea is that for those very few families who really do need subsidies long term where their rent is based on their income. Then we try to secure as many resources as we can for long term assistance in this is also permanently affordable units as well. So the new the new apartments have been tungsten village and Nederland often what Boulder Housing Partners does in the city of Boulder. They build a lot of affordable units Boulder County housing authority in Longmont Housing Authority also build affordable units as well as some other nonprofit developers that build affordable units in the county. So that's just to kind of give you a framework that we work with under In the family homelessness subcommittee. And just as our acting agencies. This is the framework that we're working under usually with with when we're talking about family homelessness and then I'll just pointed to Julie next

[15:09] Okay, I'm going to talk a little bit more about specific services and programs in the city of Boulder, but this start Which I have my own line. I want to talk a little bit about Kind of the metrics in the in the city. There was a few in that video that was done a few years ago, just to be aware, because It's not often a topic of conversation child poverty and child homelessness that you see on agendas and in the paper. It's quite hidden compared to say adult individual homelessness, but of the there's like 14,000 or so school aged children going to schools and in the city of Boulder. 2500 are on free and reduced lunch. Overall, there's 1000 children over 1000 children in the city that live below the poverty line.

[16:02] And so that for a family of three would be around $20,000 $23,000. So just to give you an idea of how how you can manage on that level of resources, the average family that fo serves makes $15,000 a year and lives in the city of Boulder with children. And so, that creates this fragility. That tips families easily into losing their housing. there's well over 200 children a year in the city. On recent counts that will have go through an episode of of homelessness. It's worth stating that you probably will not see them on the street. Most families do what we would all do, which is, you know, knock on the doors of families and friends and couch surf. That's about 80% plus of the of the people going through homelessness with kids.

[17:06] The other chair is between services like our housing or they might be in domestic violence shelter and only about 5% are actually physically on housed sleeping in their car and those are these are really Priority cases that Sarah talked about where we were. We try and get immediately into hotel into into housing of some kind. The You know the it's we're saying that like in the city over 90% of households that make under 50,000 are considered rent burdened That would be paying over 30% of your income on housing costs at F of the average family pays 72% of their income on housing costs so that doesn't leave a whole lot for food, clothing emergencies medical etc etc so

[18:03] That is the underlying structural issue, if you will. And then what are agencies doing about it. Well, the government and nonprofits have a broad array of services, I can speak a bit to Fs, we have A basic needs program, which includes food financial assistance, including rental assistance, I'ma talk a little bit more about We have a physical housing program for families with kids going through homelessness around the county. We have 36 apartments in the city. We have 22 apartments for families that are are housed. They can stay anywhere between three months to two years depending on the program comes with a lot of Case Management wraparound services support for the children. Because it's Quite a traumatic experience losing housing the stress of it. The

[19:06] Loss of schooling, the loss of the challenges to parenting. Going through something that can't be underestimated. So there's a lot of resources going towards these families to help them. You know, try to pack to stable housing. We work very closely with boulder Housing Partners, a number of programs to get families that are housing in unstable or insecure into permanently affordable housing as the main kind of housing partner from the public housing side. And that's kinda F has been doing for a long time. Been in this community over 100 years and doing kind of the same thing. So very well known. And then Kobe hit. So I just want I want to just make sure that my spend a couple minutes. Just letting you know on Both, you know, Sarah, can chime in. What's going on with Kobe. That's usually a big question. What are we seeing in terms of addictions and homelessness and housing instability. Well, all of those kind of

[20:09] Frightening statistics and you know really heart wrenching stories in the video. We're all before koeppen so It's only made it harder, obviously. So what you see is like particularly industries that were low wage jobs are concentrated retail restaurants. Is where the largest job losses families that are working in grocery stores convenience stores. Home Health Care etc tend to be at greatest risk for the disease. And so we do see that it's unequal who's actually getting harmed economically by covert and who is ending up with Cohen. We, it has an unequal distribution in our community. And we're seeing that

[21:04] All agencies, public and private have stepped up into the need to keep people from becoming on housed. I mean, particularly during a pandemic. So we have scaled up our rental assistance programs. The county has channeled government funding into that. And just to give you kind of some idea. On pre coven times we would we would do about $80,000 a month in rental assistance. To You know, probably 100 families. Or households. We also give rental assistance to individuals. That's more than doubled undercover we're averaging 160 $5,000 a month we have helped a hot 1300 households since coded started 69% of families with kids 65% or Latin next households.

[22:09] Often hardest hit because of the the jobs in the disparities, but also maybe less able to access some of the federal and unemployment kind of assistance programs. That's been steady we've seen about a quarter of people that have come in for help, have never needed FS help before. So that's pretty Kind of classic narrative of safety nets. Some people need help, pretty much, you know, all the time. And then when a shock hits you see people having to come in. And get get assistance. We're giving out rental assistance medical Utilities trying to keep the lights on and it's been extremely busy and we have not seen any lead up and it's starting to an uptick a starting again DOG WHINING

[23:07] So that's what it's been going on with with Kobe we're doing. I think a good job as a community coordinating a lot of the sources of funding the county has some buckets and buckets, you know, we're harmonizing criteria. There's a housing helpline at the county that can get you to f f can get you to the housing resources of the county. We have a very well coordinated system. And so far, we feel, I think that we've been like the kid with the finger in the dike We addictions have been low they're lower than normal right now, but we know that there's more Tourism's we're worried about what comes behind that we're worried about households that have Accumulated months and months of a rears we're trying to find some we have some funding to help with that. And in all of this effort has been Fortunate to

[24:01] See the community step up in private funding almost all of that scale up. We've spent like 1.4 million in rent and you know 80% of that has come from local individual donors in our community. We have a motto of neighbors helping neighbors, and it's just been really encouraging to see and it's allowed us to, you know, put some of these unrestricted private money into into areas that couldn't be funded by government programs so We've been really busy and we haven't seen a great uptick in homelessness. What we're seeing as a bit more on the doubled upside, but because of the pandemic. I mean, we're really i mean landlords are not kicking people out Probably where there's a concern is increase in domestic violence, you know that all that we're seeing across the country. And we're definitely seeing in our community in terms of causing housing instability.

[25:04] But we think it's going to be a long haul, and a challenging winter to get through this. I did want to just say one thing about keep family's house because it was on the agenda, keep them these houses a program we have at the city of Boulder and private foundations. That we suspended during coded it was two families with kids could come in three times a year and get up to $600 each time and rental assistance. The first time based on need and then the innovation in this program was the next two times was really based on essential investments in your children. So you had to have had the kids see a doctor, a dentist in the last 12 months. Have an early childhood developmental screen signed up for health insurance if applicable, signed up for food stamps, if, if applicable, and that the parents would have seen a financial counselor.

[26:00] Through a county program that's free financial counseling one time was a it was a very successful program we scaled it up from about 300 families to about 450 over the three years that was been going on since Before cocoa bit hit and we did external impact evaluation that found that no family lost her housing that not only did Housing hardships and housing insecurity reduce across several measures, but there are significant improvements in food security in money management in income and employment. Because this was basically a financial safety net injection into households that were in a critical situation and helped cross the multiple indicators, including self reported kind of stress and toxic stress, which is a which is a big issue in parenting and in children's path in life. So We suspended that simply because we wanted to be able to see more people. So it's the same families, but now they're just coming in for emergency rental assistance.

[27:04] We've had to prioritize volume, if you will. So you can see more distinct households, but we will get back to that program once whenever this comes down. And as our that is the keep families house program within capitals, but we're all just trying to keep families house right now and in any way we can. I'm going to Pause there. Oh, one other thing. This is we've talked at what we presented a bit about direct services. But as you know, there's a lot of zoning and regulatory issues around housing that affect Families and homelessness. We know we don't have the agenda time tonight to get into that things like f is taking positions supporting no eviction without representation we supported Bedrooms effort people. And I know that that occupancy limits may be coming up again.

[28:02] To the city council and you might come across your desk in terms of work items we consistently speak on Affordable housing projects mobile home strategy stuff and we so if ever you need like an input from fo or low income households facing zoning and regulatory issues. We'd be happy to. Work with you on getting people to come and brief you from that point of view. And I think I'm going to stop there. Thank you so much. Julie and Sarah. That was really helpful. I'm just going to open it up. See if folks have questions. Some questions and thank you both so much for coming in on pretty short notice, I would say, and thank you to Jay for arranging it so quickly.

[29:00] I think your programs are great and I'm amazed that in all the I've been on the sport for three years and I didn't even know this program. Exists. I know of course about effort, but I didn't know that the specific program existence. So I just have a couple of questions and it's What would each of you say would be gaps in services in your area that you see, if any, and what besides lots of money. And do you think would help both short term and long term. Um, I can start by saying, unfortunately. It's it is all of these things where we have gaps is because of lack of money so It's kind of hard to think of like something where it's just in kind would be great but starting from one end of the spectrum, I would say, you know, more hotels were doing a good job city of Boulder is pretty good. The hotel Association here has been a great collaborator with us.

[30:06] So the city of Boulder actually is pretty good in Longmont and and other areas. It's a little harder to find hotels that are willing to work with, with us families can cause some damage, not just families but folks can cause damage and So, so I would say on that end of the spectrum, some hotel vouchers. In the middle, we're doing pretty well with we have lots of different resources, which I didn't really get into tonight. One of the ones that we just got from the state of Colorado Department of Housing The two year program $500,000 for families who are doubled up in voluntarily so we can get referrals from the McKinney Vento liaisons at the school districts and Work to house families who are involuntarily doubled up with overcrowding and what have you. So that's exciting. And we actually have a lot of resources for the

[31:02] You know, two to 24 month period kind of what I alluded to before permanent supportive housing for families is the country is just realizing that that is something that's actually needed. It's not just for chronically homeless individuals. And my dog is whining. Now you need to stop working. Um, and then, um, affordable housing, really, and even the problem is that even are affordable housing that PHP or BCH a built is not really affordable. If you really look at what it's still. That means that people are housing cost burden, so That's like the magic pill. It's just too cost so much over like $150,000 per unit to build a unit and to get that money back. Is just very, very difficult. I know that most housing authorities are having a hard time even being solvable soluble at this point. So,

[32:04] I think that those are those are the, the biggest gaps. That that I can name and more more money for supportive services in case management, our case managers are severely underpaid, really, if you think about the work that they do. And it's frustrating sometimes to see that somebody that does GIS mapping gets way more than a child welfare worker. And, and, you know, some so some more equity. Looking at at salaries through an equity lens, especially with our nonprofits our domestic violence shelters and even within human services in the city and county level. And that's a, that's a Big sticking point. We can't keep people. There's lots of turnover, because the job is so stressful stressful in the paper so low. That I would just add, I think one of the gaps is actually a lack of awareness, to tell you the truth on this issue.

[33:08] I think Given the effect episodes of homelessness have on children for their whole life trajectory The best investment is to eliminate this so that there are no episodes of family homelessness. And I think that We have it within our grasp as a wealthy community to actually do that. I'm I have often cited this, that, you know, we would 5% of the city of boulders budget as A child transfer no child will live in poverty in this city. That's how close it is to being a solvable, because part of the issue is low wage jobs. So I'd love to see a $15 minimum wage in the city. Part of it is regulatory environment. This is great quite expensive housing.

[34:02] And it doesn't, it's harder for families, even on affordable housing projects. You'll often hear how many units. What I would ask you to do is ask how many units of two or more bedrooms, because that's You know, if you have lots of studios, that's great but families with kids doesn't help. So just bringing that lens of family being in the lens of equity, um, you know, I think that We as a community should do everything possible to have every kid that grows up in Boulder have a chance at life. And so if that means Free RTB passes for low income families with kids. So their kids can get around on the bus. Access to summer camps rec centers etc for low income is. I mean, I would. There's a lot that we can do with existing services that we have in terms of what like as a frontline provider what what we need.

[35:07] As long as we have low wage jobs and high cost housing and childcare community. This is structural So the money is important in terms of being able to stabilize and prevent homelessness. I don't want to expand numbers of apartments for homeless families, I'd prefer to have less homeless families and money going into preventing that So, And that can be done in a number of ways and the city has been great stepping in and keep families housed and As a great partner, but we still have and we have seen family homeless has actually numbers come down across the county pre coated Through a concerted effort of all these agencies and programs. So I think in a way we are kind of a starting to be a success story. I'm worried about coming out of this just how many assets have been stripped of families savings are gone.

[36:05] health crises have, have you know affected families in different ways. So it's going to take a while, from an equity lens to climb out of this and get back on that trajectory I think, Julie. One more. One more thing I that and you know I have to be careful as a county employee, because I feel like I'm going like totally against public the county's Public stance, but it takes courage. Right. I think one of the main things that we have to look at as a county and as a city is what do we value more open space or human beings. And it's getting to be that point. Where open space and homelessness. Are you know the linchpin like the pivotal issues. Wow, I didn't do my nails. But you know, it's like, those are the crucial things that are starting to juxtapose each other. And there's a lot of people in County leadership and in city leadership where open space is more valued than

[37:12] Then humans having a roof over their head. So just saying that I don't know if there's anything to do about that. But we need to maybe shift the paradigm here where We start to explore all this open land around us that could really actually benefit people if we could build more affordable housing. Yeah, meeting. You can go ahead. I just had a quick comment on that. I can go after you Mason cut Yeah, I have a comment and we'll actually it's two comments. One, my good friend Jamal Gilmore says that prairie dogs don't pay taxes so That's his argument over the open space piece. Um, I just personally, I'm a little antidote to the work that you guys have done is in

[38:04] After 911 I was in the restaurant business and lost everything on during that whole shut down and it was because of your services. I was a single mom of A Young son, it was because of your services and keeping me in the studio apartment that I was in that I was able to go back to school and become a hairstylist. So it was a game changer. It changed my life. Having access to your services. So I've written a thank you note and but that was like, you know, decades ago. But thank you for the work that you guys do. So good. I'm sorry. I appreciate your comment and that seems like a deeper can of worms. But, um, you know, there is there is this approach in this city that you can only have you can have great open space or you can care about people, but it seems like you know open space being this like amazing, you know, public type asset is good people are just afraid of

[39:11] Density and so that's why you know that's an excuse, that's made up, but I actually had a question, and that is, you know, like what the number of affordable homes affordable units that we are short, like, you know, we've housing is going to solve everything. And, and, you know, people need homes. How many units are we, short for those who actually need to be housed. You know, we're not going to provide solutions like temporary solution. Well, there's the regional I'm sure you guys are familiar with the regional housing plan that every jurisdiction signed on to within Boulder County every city every town. Which was a commitment to increase the, the overall affordable housing stock by 12% in 10 years. Um, and the goal was

[40:08] The, the shortage is more than that. But that felt like something that every town in jurisdiction could sign on to, I believe if I'm recalling correctly that the gap was more like 18 or 20% Short of our housing stock. So there was some criticism that we weren't aiming high enough with the various Entities. And I think that a couple. I don't know if it was boulder or some actually said no, we're going to aim higher than 12% but the minimum was was 12% so That's been a couple years since I looked at those numbers. I don't know if Julia J. If you guys have any other numbers, since then, but that's that's the general I would just add something to keep in mind that, you know, as we have these like build affordable housing that's permanently affordable targets.

[41:03] The, the city of Boulder. There is no market available, affordable housing at the market, you're always going to pay more than that 30% of your income, it's, there's just none and so It's how do we preserve what we already have. I mean, I, this is where I go against the some of the folks on the housing side is I love mobile home parks, because they have the deep sink of affordable housing in our community. And so I protect what you already have in terms of affordable housing. You can, it's going to take a long time to build out to buy publicly owned or funded permanently affordable housing. But in the meantime, people are living in Boulder paying you know You know 70% of their income on housing costs. And so I think it's good to have these unit goals, but also just this kind of structural nature of housing and boulders important to keep in mind.

[42:09] Totally make housing less For less more affordable in the existing housing is the question. Mm hmm. Yeah, and wages is another an element of that that you mentioned, I have another question, and then I'll let someone else speak, but, um, you mentioned that Domestic violence has become increasingly, you know, an increasing problem during coded in particular, and I'm I'm apologize if you already mentioned this, but where, you know, for example, can a single mother with her child go to get holistic care where she's safe and and you know secure. Is there a place where someone Has a wonderful service. Some spam so Okay. Over there are nine they Right. They both have a shelter as well as some units. We often have people come from span kind of stabilized in a more safe controlled environment into how F a housing.

[43:08] It's not a domestic violence but mother house provides housing for Pregnant women at risk. Right. Yeah, it's a shelter, which is the Equivalent to in a boulders DB shelter in long lines. Yeah, they shelter of St. Green Valley. Or just thank you for 90 And then the good thing about that is there, they're in a whole network. So if they're at capacity. Then there's the whole metro Denver network. And so they will find a shelter in Aurora if they need to, for somebody, and they just kind of work with each other to find an opening And because it's the nature of the beast oftentimes folks are fleeing Aurora and they they need to come here. So the other thing that we do with folks with domestic violence issues are

[44:05] Any resin residency requirements we might have at our programs are waived. If you're fleeing domestic violence. Yeah, thank you. And with that, for housing. It's a, you know, we have housing in Longmont Lafayette lewisville so that's a whole system that is beyond just what we have in Boulder and people move around or escaped to another community for now. Or transition out of domestic violence into a community away from where They were living right no good. Danny. Go ahead. you're muted. You hear me. There. So Julie, um, you mentioned several times, um, you know, your perspective on the regulatory environment and how that has an impact. On a lot of these issues. And I'm just curious as to how thoroughly you've had an opportunity to really kind of scan the landscape of both city and county regulations and how they impact.

[45:10] Those issues because it's certainly something from the broader affordable housing standpoint that we've been wrestling with for the past few years, and I mean I think it's all part of that same soup and It's certainly a daunting challenge to try to figure out how to deal with that. But it is something that merits consideration as well. So I'm just, you know, We might be able to share Well, it's hard. I you know I before I was that if I was the mayor of lions. So I saw it from the public side as well. So I do have a bit of a broader view than just from my agency on this. And I think you And I mean economist by training. So I do kind of think you get the outcome that you plan for, in a way, you know, it's By Boulder has an expensive set of regulations for that, then

[46:05] Transfers through to cost of building costs of rental Costco, you know, The it's tough when youth. I think when people here as well. You can't go up. You can't go out and you can't get denser and so if those are the The answers. I don't see how we solve the problem, except through this kind of longer route of How public investment in permanently affordable housing which is expensive and takes a long time. And in the end of the day, you know, it will push into the planning preserve and into neighborhoods where they might not want it so it doesn't get you off the hook. I I you know I mean, give me example I went into the mobile home park strategy discussion. And I listened to things that were like sounded really good like we're going to make kind of clean up the mobile home parks. Make sure they have

[47:02] Meat energy efficiency regulations and I thought, that's just going to raise the cost and the there's no place to go with those costs. And if you look at the per capita energy use. Of a mobile home park resident versus the person across the street with a 4000 square foot house for two people. Who's actually whose carbon footprint is bigger, you know. So I do think you have to kind of bring this, you know, kind of tough equity lens and you know environmentalist my whole life. But like, how do we solve this problem so that people are not in such straits. You know I have. I have. We've built transitional housing in North boulder and have to say it was one of the most frustrating experiences of my my adult life, bar none the hours spent in the planning office, the additional costs, you have to hire architects to do. I mean, I had to get a lighting engineer, like it was just like, oh my god. And we were just we were building five transitional housing in it. So I'm they don't mean to make light of this, but it's like

[48:06] I think you have to challenge all of this, you know, are we getting just expensive housing, because that's what we're we want in the end of the day. You know we got a lot of criticism for taking a position for bed and supportive bedrooms are for people It's like, well, why would ever take that stance, because you know you're gonna destroy the quality of life of the hill and it's like, well, we're talking to our participants and they're saying how they're surviving getting roommates and getting you know that doubling up Is often illegal under housing so we hear you know like you can get the voices of low income households and what they're going through. It's so Illuminating in our community and yet you know there We don't usually come to hearings, or, you know,

[49:02] Go. I'll just say on the doubling up thing to like I always remind my staff that when we're thinking about like a self sufficiency plan for people who are finishing assistance. A voluntary doubled up situation, even though it might be illegal is really sometimes the the best option. So I live in a voluntary doubled up Co housing situation that's not necessarily legal and most of my staff live and we have salaries and our Boulder County Employees. Most of my staff live in a co housing voluntary doubled up situation, it's just the reality of where we are. So just to bring a human. It's not just our participants. Its most of the people that I work with. You aren't And even those who are married and have kids, they're choosing to do this.

[50:02] Don't tell anybody. It gives you got the two radicals. Thank goodness. Go ahead, jack I just I just want to say to Julie and Sarah that I really appreciate hearing from you guys tonight, and I think that you bring the perspective of what's actually happening out there to us, and I appreciate the fact that you talk to all of the elements that impact this Because it is a reality that you can't have everything and I'm afraid that boulder wants everything, or at least a certain slice of older wants everything And so I guess I just wanted to say. I appreciate the perspectives that you guys have have given to us and I know that it's it's it's up my fight with the regulatory structure to Julie because I design build homes.

[51:02] Oh my god, I can't even imagine how amazing amount of time and energy and unfortunately people have to hire me to have an ad you approved in their backyard. People were trying to do some 400 K and they've got put 15 or 20 towards unnecessary architectural Yes, to put it mildly. So I think that is a massive piece of it and I'm glad that You've kind of reinforced, at least my belief that that's one of the one of the slices of the pie that we need to engage with. So thanks. Hi, thank thank you both so much. I had a question, you brought up the bedrooms are for people and that is kind of a hot potato topic here in Boulder and I feel like Sometimes people just have strong opinions, but they don't know why they have a strong opinion or they don't have the information to back it up now. I'm curious if you could perhaps articulate

[52:08] What percentage of your people that you help the families. The household, whatever the metric is do you think would benefit from this change and regulation. I think if we can quantify it and understand it and talk with people about that specifically people on the other side saying well If you, if you allow that. Then you're going to create a free for all, for landlords who are going to charge by the head and they're just going to make x number more per, per structure and it's not really going to benefit people and create more affordable housing situation so If you have some information on that or insight into that. That would be super helpful to understand You know, I don't have that i don't i don't have that number. I don't know that number what people would actually, you know what, what actual changes would occur, but, you know, EPA has a participant Advisory Council, where

[53:06] People that use EPA services have a council at EPA and review public policies and EPA services to have them sit on a board of directors very vibrant very interesting and they would probably love to come talk to you, everyone. And hear from them, we, we took this to them with that very same question. Like how is this really of Benefit are used to you, what if what if it would raise a housing costs because that is the counter argument and to listen to their life stories, it was, it was just To a person on that committee had personal stories of how it how doubling up or having roommates or having these different housing arrangements, help them get through divorces help them get through domestic violence going to another two friends place to live for a while, help them get

[54:02] Stay in Boulder and be able to afford it. And one of the things is they're able to share costs. That you don't think about your they're sharing costs of internet they're sharing cost of food. They're watching each other's kids there. So the thing about well damage is going to make more money by renting one more room out I don't know where the elasticity of that is being an economist. I don't think anyone knows. So if anyone thinks they're telling you this is actually what's going to happen and I would like to see that modeling because it could go Either way, but what I do know is what those people told us, and that's why if it took the position because there was a lot of reticence from, how are we going to lose belly donors, I, you know, Is this the right mechanism. And it was so loud and clear from these stories and they were they were unanimously in favor of this. And so after took the stand. And I know there's a question about like dorm type living on the Hill, but there is all the rest of Boulder to think about to on this.

[55:08] And we did take some heat, you know, so Well, I think it's great to have some contexts, like that. And that's maybe where we can Can support by making recommendations from regulatory standpoint, in terms of how do you frame it so that you're you're benefiting the people you really want to benefit and And you're not creating financial incentives for people don't if if that's in fact the case, what might happen if you were to put something like that in place on a hill. I have I have students living in illegal housing on the Hill who are and see you and Lisa three people when there's five people, but The landlord conceivably could not make as much for a single family home. They were renting it to a single family or would be unaffordable to a single family compared to five, five college students.

[56:02] Well, you know, Potentially about the number of bedrooms. I've heard that argument. Well, How can they compete. They are still No, no, low income family is going to rent a four bedroom and only use two of them, you know, like So there's some of these things is, is you said to kind of figure out what actually happens as you as you said, Like what is this actually changed things for And I don't know. I think I'm It's contentious for a reason. Beyond because of a change in what It a Certain segment of the population feels might affect their properties. At least you know I mean I guess I am kind of like being a little open tonight. But Especially that's an argument that's your fire would, that would benefit from

[57:03] It. Yeah. I think it's just helpful to always try to get as much information as we can about both sides so that each side can understand each other. And there's a way to Consensus and Eliminates eliminate some of the fears that people might have Probably now. Thank you. Yeah, no. Thanks for bringing that up. Juliet, um, Any other questions. For Julian, Sarah. Spend tremendously helpful and just great conversation. Do you want to offer our participant advisory council. If ever you want to Some input from a group of low income residents. Living, you know, in Boulder in housing instability. They just got training from someone in the city on how to testify in front of city council. So even just like how to

[58:03] Develop that voice. So I just want to put it out there for everyone, you know, you can have a range. And I think it'd be great for them to also be able to kind of hone their public voices on these issues. Billy, that's a brilliant idea. Maybe we could schedule something like that for the start of the year, because I don't think we have a meeting in December, right. Okay, but they wouldn't really great just to have them put together something that they'd like to say housing issues. Yeah, exactly. Wonderful. So we follow up offline. I'd be happy to. So good. Great. Well, thank you. Thank you all very much. It was a Great opportunity. Thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation. Dan Hey I see. Awesome. Well, that was so good. I'm really glad they came, Judy. I know you were in it you initially brought you know brought the, you know, keeping family housed program to light. And so I just want to make sure you got what you needed

[59:06] And You felt like Oh yeah, it was It was it was fabulous. Yes. Yeah, it was only last week that I heard Like you know that I heard about this at all. And I realized that's a whole chunk of people who are unhappy that we hadn't talked about before. So yeah, it seemed really great, thank you. And thanks to Jay really cuz Jay I'm Really fast. And just check. Okay. Well, let's move on. To five be. This is the committee and project liaison reports. So Judy, I'll let you speak again on the Joint Committee and provide any updates that you feel are relevant at this time. Well, Okay, sorry. So I Talked to Charlotte earlier today. I can't remember is by email or on the phone, but I want to let everyone know that the HR see meeting on Monday.

[60:07] They made them, somebody made emotion and it was voted on unanimously that they're taking to city council and I just read what the emotion is if you want to hear more about it. I can tell you more, but it was The city of Boulder human relations Commission recommends that following the successful model regarding the city police The Boulder City Council immediately appoint a diverse and representative, including individuals with enhanced experience. Oversight Committee for city programs regarding the enhanced and formerly begin an investigation into possible human rights violations by the city that was what they voted on unanimously, so I just wanted to let you know if if anybody wants to Know more about it. I can send you the hall. There was like lots of paragraphs of whereas this whereas that whatever

[61:00] Anyway, so the the Joint Committee met again on Sunday and is winding down and is preparing a to maybe slightly over to page report that we will send I will send to you and probably in a week. More or less for you to get feedback to us and they will do the same with HR. See, and then our hope is that you will use the information we've had to do whatever you want. Eat separately and there's a Diversion natural diversion in goals and interests. Have rightfully so, is interested in things like tiny houses because we're the housing advisory board, they are less interested in, although they support tiny houses, they're interested in things like They have concerns about the language that the city use in talk in talking about and house people for whom services are not available. They're now called service resistant

[62:11] And they feel that has a negative connotation. So they're they're going off in a different area. So we're hoping to present this information. After we get your feedback and that you cannot each separately. Do what you want. And we're planning on concluding fairly, you know, fairly soon within the next month or two, by the end of the year. So I'm happy to answer any questions or Thanks, Judy. Initially, my, my first question is, um, you said the on House committee is wrapping up or the drink committee. So are there other I recall it. There were other issues there. You know, things you wanted to discuss as a group or explore is there. Has there been discussion of continuing this and to 2021 or

[63:03] Not with this committee. There doesn't seem to be interested in doing it together the topics that we're still addressing and we'll address in this, in addition to the The tiny home and Say parking referring to that talk a little bit about encampments And talk a little bit about an oversight committee and talk a little bit about The data we've done a whole lot of investigations into data in general city data and the dashboard and all that so Okay. And then back to the. This was it a resolution or what what was, what did he call call this agreement or I guess they call a recommendation to Console and They're having A who's there liaison. Take it to console. Okay. Um, and so back to that, that just asks council to appoint someone or someone from their board or two.

[64:05] To form whole oversight committee. A committee of so group of people that Council chooses, or will HTC. Do you know that they'll have been Playing they didn't specify down and and And I don't know what they had in mind. Any other questions for Judy. Okay well back on mute, then Okay. Well, thank you. Guys follow up with Judy, have you have any questions, and then I guess we'll move on. Right now to Jack and Terry first for spotlight. I'm tiny home your tiny home, whatever your report or discussion or I'm just curious to see what what you've been discussing and

[65:08] That's not the name of their podcast is it tiny home, whatever. naming them to mobile ad use My dues. Yeah, man. She's that code. Well, I mean, To be entirely honest, the amount of time and effort that I've been able to put into it is been not as much as I would have liked. But I, I kind of am Terry and I have just had a little bit of engagement on it. I kind of sat down and I think there were two major points and Terry just jump in. Whenever, but there were two major points that were some interest. For my understanding. One was that the possibility of getting mobile

[66:05] Tiny homes. Or what we call tiny homes on wheels and getting that somehow incorporated and to become you know allowed through the ranks here in Boulder. That's an area that I kind of focused on the other area that I think exists out there was the interest in is there the possibility for a Development tiny home village or development of some sort. And I haven't done any work on that side, I've only looked into the the mobile aspect of it so That's where I am on it and I put together. Let me see if I can find this document, I can screen share. I'm just an overview and Peter Love to hear any inputs critiques questions from your side as I kind of lay this out.

[67:09] And I also want you know before I get started, I want to say that Terry and I, you know, in the discussion about this. I think we recognize in a way that the real hurdle to this is probably More political hurdle, so to speak, than anything else, and a perception hurdle of what is it But that said, You know, the, the potential benefits. I think we've talked about a little bit. We've heard about them. I think it was Allen peak and that other young gentleman who were at our listening session I think spoke pretty eloquently about the benefits of them being able to have a tiny home that was mobile that they had created and that could be moved around.

[68:03] So I think there's that is one of the aspects of it just kind of the The security in the value. And of course, the value is something that's debatable. I think once again, as we heard from from Julian and Sarah, there's a little bit of a perception and what what is your perspective of value. You know and I know that that's one of the pieces of discussion. It's like, well, this isn't actually a good investment but I think that the perception of what's a good investment varies depending upon the audience. And so I think that there's a value from that perspective, I think there's potential value, also from the perspective of the homeowner Who could have a temporary or part time engagement with some income stream which also comes at a fairly low Threshold of investment from their side relatively low. So it's a lot less expensive than Putting a full ad you on essentially that cost of investment is split between whoever would put something on that pad and the homeowner has that pad. So, so in some ways it lowers the bar on both ends there and

[69:11] You know, again, going back to Sarah and Julie, it's, you know, as they said it's really just like The question for this city is are we going to create more housing units because if we don't create more housing units. We're not going to address affordable housing, and I think that's kind of the bottom line. So this is one way where we're already close and we could possibly step in There. Your mute. Oh, sorry. There we go. Can hear me now. Yes. Okay, I think that's really well said. You know in our Conversation. My focus is more on Fixed foundation, you know, backyard tiny homes for a myriad of reasons.

[70:01] I think they have the most important reason is I think they have the best likelihood of actual happening in a major way. I think that there's a lot of benefits to a fixed foundation, you know, backyard tiny home. The list is long of benefits. I know we need to get an older right now. But for me, the infrastructure as far as streets and lots in in all of it is there, we have Thousands and thousands of backyards in this town with single family homes that have room to build fixed foundation single tiny homes. I think the regulation as much as nobody likes going through the city process. I think there's benefit in it because it creates certainty, it creates reliability, it creates dependability People can weigh in. There's a process that it goes through, you know what you're getting at the end result I think neighbors appreciate that neighborhoods. Appreciate it.

[71:05] There's just a lot of benefits in my mind to fix foundation background tiny homes design flexibility, being able to do a ranch have a basement have a two story with a basement. Access to a backyard to build. There's a lot in my opinion easier on many lots than than a mobile tiny home being able to get that back there. If you don't have a huge lot. So, the list is long. And for me the the benefits of being able to put 1000 2000 3000 4000 fixed foundation tiny homes in Boulder can be done pretty easily. They add value to the property they create an income stream. For the property owner. They put roofs over people's heads at a lower rent basis and

[72:00] I think you can get the political will, because you won't have the neighborhood opposition that you might have for mobile tiny homes to get there. I haven't dug into the zoning. I know you mentioned something about that. Those are zoning out there that allows for it now. I know you and I went, they went up to North boulder and looked at one that had been built years ago and is great. It's a really, really nice structure that works really well for the people that use it. But I didn't know about the zoning and I haven't dug into that. That's something I want to do. I just enough time. But I like my two senses in the world of tiny homes. I think backyard fixed foundation tiny homes, our best bet to do something significant The tiny home village concept I think is great. I love it. It's just you need land for that. And there's just not a lot of land in Boulder to do something of any significance on that level, but I do love the concept Of all withhold my thoughts on mobile tiny homes and then it's kind of a hot topic a little bit, but I'll leave it up.

[73:09] To questions, Terry. What do you see the difference between fixed foundation tiny homes in a deals are Well for me to use that I've seen. They're typically part of the house already there usually somebody's basement or somebody has some Peaceful parcel of their existing on the third sectioning off creating another entrance. Whatever it is to create an ad you versus going into a backyard and building a whole new structure. Yeah. Jay, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm at that although those two elements are possible. There is actually going in and building a separate one. Correct. Yeah. And we did just go through what 10 year process on on this and we got it to a point where we increased overall approval saturation with 30% and or sorry,

[74:10] Within your neighbors and and we increase the overall housing inventory by less than one half of 1% based on our 10 year program. Correct. Well, just a little bit more context. So yep we restarted at one half of 1% of the housing stock or accessory dwelling in its since we adopted the update and that was what, you know, had had a role in making a recommendation account. I just got the numbers that I think, three or four weeks ago we've more than doubled the number Justin's the the update so Great. So we have what 115 we have Almost 500 500 that's fantastic through the whole city. So with our housing stock or total housing stock is what We

[75:00] What are we at 35,000 units. Yeah, so 500 of that is what Percentage Share analysis because a lot of that 35,000 units are multifamily attached right you got to look at single family homes of single family was Right, I guess I'm more curious about the difference of tiny houses as on fixed foundations to at us. And my understanding, and Peter, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the square footage of those are the same as what a tiny house on a foundation would be as well. Correct. It's pretty comparable. Yeah. So it's kind of easy to move discussion than that. We love us because we already have that in our packet

[76:07] Can I Because the living situation living setup is different. Generally speaking at us so far as far as I know, is yes. There are three 400 square feet. Yeah, but they're attached there underneath there next to it. Is that that is one you can attach you can put it underneath. But you can also put a structure. In the backyard. I don't know the numbers and I don't know. Jay, if you have That kind of granularity on the Numbers, but I, I know that a significant number are detached. I think that, and Terry, I think you're right about the hoped for impact and Peter, correct me if I'm wrong, please. I believe currently since we adopted Appendix Q of the 2018 IRC, which was adopted earlier this year by Council.

[77:10] We essentially have the ability To pull it Patty home at you. In other words, and time just means in this case just under 400 square feet. That's that's the division line. So if you want to differentiate, but essentially for on the foundation. There is no hurdle to creating a 200 square foot at you anymore because the Appendix Q and The Sea has allowed for the regulatory structure to do that from a building perspective. I don't believe there any zoning and this is where Peter, you might not be there any zoning. Limitations on that other than the standard limitations for an ad, you know,

[78:02] Saturation limits. Saturation limits and all the other pieces. Yeah. Let me know though. Hey Terry, we haven't dealt with Appendix Q in any real detail. And talking about what the building code does or does not allow or what obstacles. Are moved by that I wasn't sure if Charlotte was trying to jump in here, not if, if not, excuse me. Know, you're good. Lots of people were speaking. So let's just try to Maintain some sort of decorum here, but I actually don't know to be totally honest. I tried to help a client with an ad in Boulder and they had to get on a waiting list and they've been on the waiting list for three years. So See how that's going They go figure. Be under what 400 square feet. Is that what it is. Is that no

[79:00] No. Yeah yeah sorry jack. Go ahead. So, My understanding of it. Currently, and I have permitted a couple of these recently for clients. So, and then this is part of the changes to the BU rakes that we had our recommendation on a while back. So, up to now, it's 550, I think it was adjusted slightly upwards. It was for 50 it's 550 for an ad you that is not permanently affordable. That is not Limited, and then 800 square feet for an ad you a detached a to you that is permanently affordable. So there's that little bump up to go to a permanently affordable condition. You can go to 800 square feet. There's The waiting list Charlotte that you were talking about is really and Peter might have these Zones in his head better than I do certain residential zones have that saturation limit others do not. And so it depends where you are. And yeah, you could be in a neighborhood where there's a 20%

[80:10] Even that 20% saturation still just puts you on a waiting list so I think from the saturation and how many we can put. However, a lot of the zone of the residential zoning doesn't have that saturation limit on it quite a bit. So Terry's point of how many of these. Can we get, I think the real question. Terry comes down to how do we try to, is there a way to incentivize that Because I don't there any limitations from the city's perspective, other than the process which is painful. It's funny. There's been all these articles out lately about tiny homes and what I read recently was a California developer is going in renting leasing working out deals with property owners to effectively least our backyards for a long period of time and they go in and build these tiny homes.

[81:03] Fixed foundation tiny homes and you can get them on Amazon anymore i mean it's it's unbelievable how many different forms and types of shapes. There are And they're they're giving the property owner who owns the main house a little bit of rent the property owner doesn't have to do anything. The developer goes and goes through the whole process builds a tiny home and then they rented out and they make spread obviously right and so I don't know that that would work around here but but i think I think there's to me the opportunity I love talking in theory. The theory of we everybody needs a home. Everybody needs. That's all great and I agree with it. But how do we do it, how do we actually make it happen. We have a great affordable housing program. In Boulder that's working great. It's nationally recognized and does this better than most any other affordable housing programs and that's wonderful. In addition to that, though, how can we do other things that can actually get done. And if you can go to the property owners and say, look, you have a big lot you have extra land.

[82:10] How can we Get more weeks in the backyard of these places on the side yours, like the one we saw right My second question though jack. Before you go on, because I had to One was the tiny house one and the second question before we go off on a tangent on on that, um, I agree to do Seven was Terry done speaking. Sorry I turn, will you done I'm sorry, I just want to make sure that you're able to finish your point. I'm trying to say is this provides an opportunity to actually get a lot of housing built it with our current infrastructure. And I think that needs to be explored and promoted and enhanced and flustered, that's an opportunity here we have an opportunity. We have a lot of single family homes and gold with a lot of excess land almost lots with a single family homes are

[83:09] We can build 300 square feet two stories 600 square feet. Throw basement and 900 square feet, that can be a two to three bedroom place that can be rented. For a lot less than a three bedroom regular house in Boulder and it allows people to live in our community that we need to live in this community. Very. I think he's I think it's easily done. That's my two cents. I think what's happening is there's a big push between oh well we you know we want mobile tiny home model and and I don't Personally, I just don't see that happening for America. And Peter did you have a quick comment. Sir, a quick follow up to Terry's point. I remember the Ingram court co op hearing as well as some of the ad meetings we had and it eventually devolves into Parking conversations on

[84:01] Where the cars are going to go and that becomes the neighbors rallying cry. Against most of most of this cuz No, no one's going to come out and say that they're against housing, people will instead say that where these cars going to go, they're going to park in front of In front of my house and then you reminded, they don't own that space in front of their house, but it's still a to go with your point addressing the mobility. Equation alongside that is going to help move the conversation forward. I think Yeah, Mason, go ahead and then jack Um, yeah, I think, I think we can refer to The last 1015 years of jays professional career if we have any questions about public push back on at us, for sure. Since he was the primary in that entire process.

[85:03] My second question on this is I You had mentioned, way back when you first started this conversation that I'm What can we get done, which we've, you know, heard several times about thinking that it would be on a cement pad. I don't think it's a conversation of either or, because we've already done the legwork on on pads and like I said, Jay, could talk to that the part about mobile tiny homes for me when you're talking. Is that what I'm curious about And jack you mentioned this in your opening statement as well that Yeah, we have all these outdoor backyards. But what about the equity lens. So what I'm hearing from both of you guys talk about is landowners building more homes to benefit themselves with add value to their properties and the ability to get rent. What I'm not hearing a lot about is

[86:13] How the whole reason why tiny houses with wheels was brought up or mobile units. I actually think we're going to see huge storage containers becoming a big thing because they're They're not easily moved, but they're movable. So somebody could live on the land for a year and move that as well. So I think that's also going to enter our discussion. At some point, but I'm curious when you guys are doing your research and looking into this is if you're considering shared equity as the driving force behind mobile homes. My answer to that is I don't have a good answer for how to do that. I don't know. I don't know that anybody does. I do know this, generally speaking, things on board and especially in this town on a fixed foundation

[87:02] Add value things on wheels depreciate. They go the other way, they don't they don't increase value typically I can see maybe that there's there's an ownership value and I own this and it's worth i mean it's it's worth something to the person who owns it, but I don't have a good I have not come up with a solution for building a back to our tiny home. And and the equity value is going anybody other than the person who owns the main property. I don't have an answer for that. But I don't think that there's tremendous equity. Increase your equity value of gain financial gain in a mobile tiny home. I mean, the more you move it. The, the older it gets, the less it's worth Things on wheels. Go ahead. Oh, you're muted. I can't hear you. Yeah. Sorry about that. Um, I think, I think a couple of things that I do have

[88:04] Kind of a review of some of these pieces. But I think one point that i is worth making and it goes to the equity piece. And again, it's the perspective of the person who will be living in this and I think You know, Terry from one perspective, we could say there are many people quite a number of people. It's a fairly lively community who do value the tiny home concept and especially the mobile one. And so if we already have these ad rules in place. And, you know, They're there. I don't understand why we would limit wheels versus no wheels and I'll kind of get to why that is, first of all, when you look at When you look at the Kind of the focal point of this it really comes down to, I think,

[89:01] understandably concerned about somebody looking into their neighbor's backyard and feeling like there's a airstream parked back there. Right. But most of this requires skirting it requires certain types of cladding it requires all of the utilities hookups that would be required. And what's interesting is, as I went through the Code. The at you. Definitions would simply the addition of a mobile at you. Which I put together, and I'll send this to all you guys after we're done. I don't know that it's worth going through a point by point right now. And the second piece is the lack of a foundation, because our current code requires it to be on a foundation. But if we take our current codes and we marry the Regulation with the mobile home regulations everything that's required. You know, there's a big question of what's it going to be to design these these tie downs everything that's required is already a part of the code and it is in Section 10 of our I think it's 10

[90:11] Of the yes it's 1012 of the of the code. So we have all of these things. And my point would just be there are people who do have These youth is they've already built them. They've already bought them. They've already created them and all they're looking for a place to put them. And so why are we limiting that place to put it. And what are the reasons. Pretty question on it too, I would like to ask that you know like I get Terry your perspective on equity of looking at increasing land and the decreasing value of a tiny house on we'll, however, I would posit that An individual who just spent $75,000 building out a tiny house isn't paying rent, but might have a slip fee on that and if they stay in that tiny house longer than the three years, they're still

[91:06] Then they have no rent or payments after that. And there are a lot of people that are retiring and these. Um, the other thing about equity on this is that there are a lot of individuals who can't afford to Build an ad you in their backyards. So it's a way for them to avoid the 100 250 to even $200,000 cost to build an ad you in their backyard. When they could put a $25,000 infrastructure for water and put it and share their backyard with somebody who already has a built Place for retirement or has already spent their money on that. So there is something look at the equity in that not just the devaluing of a vehicle that's on wheels, but that or You know that there is a way that individual. Some people have already built theirs themselves and them are just looking for a place to park. So something to consider as the equity lens, you're

[92:01] Using using these Are here. Yeah, just to clarify, I'm not Against tiny homes on wheels. I prefer fixed foundation tiny homes. So I'm not saying it's either or, I'm not saying you have to have one versus the other. From my perspective, my opinion. One guy's opinion. I think that the fixed foundation tiny homes are better option for a lot of reasons. And I think they have a better chance of getting more of them. A lot There's a lot of reasons for the Washington, which we've kind of covered Thanks, Terry going to real the conversation and a bit Danny your hands up. And I've been up for a while. Sorry, go ahead and then and then I've seen as a Pig. I'll be quick, but I, I like the way jock highlighted the, the issue and the fact that, you know, we can look at both of them. It's really How far we regulatory from being able to look at both of them. But the thing that really quiet kind of just remind everybody really jumped out to me because I'm

[93:03] I see a lot of merit and both pipes. But when we had that listening session. One of the things that was really elucidate for me was the fact that The builders that came and taught the people who own the tiny homes that can talk what they said to us is, you know, that we needed to understand that most of them were built. In a mobile capacity. I remember that because it was it was, you know, a real surprise me. I wasn't aware of that and and If that's the case, and that's how most of them are built and that's how most of them are old right now. I mean that's something we have to wrestle it right is the fact that that's You know, we had two different manufacturers of tiny homes there and they go at that point. Remember that specifically. And so I think, you know, The whole notion of a fixed tiny home it's it's essentially an edu right maybe a little bit smaller. It would be great to see if we can have some sort of

[94:02] Regulatory adjustments, so that it would be easier for them because the problem is, once you build an edu. So it's so expensive, like we've talked about everything else that you're trying to, you know, recover as much as you can from the outlay that you've put into it. But I think we need to figure out how to wrestle with, because we don't have anything for it right now. The mobile tiny home because that's something where there seems to be Quite a bit of supply quite a bit of ownership and nothing really to facilitate utilizing those right now. So that's where I think, um, you know, maybe We can try to figure it out how to how to expedite that especially you know there's a much more immediate And a much more temporary aspect to that. And if we can figure out a way to get that done. I think, I think it might be able to serve the actual community based on the testimony that we heard at the listen session. Thanks, Danny. So this has been a really great conversation. I'm wondering jack and Terry considering all these points.

[95:07] And what, how, how would you, how would you suggest you know we as a board, you know, proceed and perhaps you to spearhead spearheading this effort. And, you know, Potentially working with planning board I, you know, seems like there are lots of different ways to approach this. But, um, you know, in terms of actually like moving forward with something and you know, bring something into fruition for Council to review what. Yeah. What do you think What I'm hearing right now is I think there's, you know, there's two potential areas that we might want to think about putting together a tiny own Kind of recommendation or One comes off of what Terry saying Is it's, you know, How do we

[96:01] Even create increase the numbers that we're getting what what kind of systems can we put in place, or like we recommend that would Increase the number of tiny homes that we're getting in backyards, and try to increase the rate of acquisition on those. So I think that's one piece that You know, as we're seeing, we're getting more at us awareness for people that they're at us 200 square feet, you know, some of it may just be that some of it may be some of the processes that Area was mentioning about some kind of least situation, although I can see that there would also be some concerns with that I think kind of again from the political side of things, but So that's one. The second piece, I think, is and you know this is the one that I've kind of been digging into is Does it make sense. To try to include the tiny home on wheels into our regulatory structure to allow that to happen. It's in a way it's a it's an unused asset that's out there and we're not

[97:14] We don't have any way to even if that's 100 units. We don't have any way to bring those online in the city. So I would think that may be Terry and I can talk more about both of these things and kind of work through some of the Way. It's a good thing. He definitely has, you know, a different perspective than I do real things, it would be a great Process anyway to spend a little bit of time for United work through that some more. And then maybe at the next meeting. I can send you what I've got. And we can look at those two things just see if have wants to move forward with anything in this. Oh. You know, that's my fault. Because I think, I think that's a great plan from and if anyone has, you know, feedback or input you know for you to consider. You know, I'm sure you're willing to, you know, read emails engage with other members of the board on this too, if that's allowed

[98:14] It's not allowed. Maybe not. Maybe TO SEE YOU AT YOU. YOU TO. I'm sorry. Don't want to break the rules. I'm Well, thanks. Can I have a quick question for Jay Jay Okay. Any, any historical background on tiny homes on wheels as far as efforts to get them allowed are approved or regulation or anything like that has gone up the flagpole it over with plenty of water Council anybody over the last 510 years I would say no. But Mason seems to think there has been some discussions. Okay, thank you.

[99:00] Yeah day I Specifically, there was a discussion, um, What it's probably been like two brought up once I mean Lisa was having the discussion. Big time. But I started saying yes before you said boulder Terry because I sat through the whole discussion in Lyons when they first Discussed what was happening across the country for tiny homes on wheels. What were the barriers. What were the biggest concerns how they could make it happen. And they acknowledged. Why was that last January, I mean time feels like a warp Maybe it was a year ago, two years ago now already. Um, but they looked their attorney their Board of Trustees attorney and planners looked across the country to see who had been who had allowed these and what they look like before they allow them so they're legal in lions and they already have a written and Peter, you could probably speak more to it.

[100:08] Peter, go ahead. Oh, I didn't mean to stop you. I just put my hand up to tag on when you're done. Oh no, that's about all I had, as I was shaking my head yes to Terry before I realized he was talking specifically about boulder. And, you know, Lisa. Marcel brought it up because of her friends up in North boulder that we're getting booted from their property with the new development up there and I know we put a stay on the couple of tiny houses that were up there while we worked this out because there was some discussion about it being allowed but Peter you I was gonna I was gonna bring up something happened in The veteran community project that is something that If there's not movement at the city of Boulder. Nothing gets builders attention like being shown how they're being shown up and so Yeah. Been into that project and

[101:00] I'm working on a project nearby. And so I'd be happy to meet anyone over on the property at any point, it's kind of a neighbor or property. There's something I'm Working on Client here. Peter on on top of that, there is a very big developer in town that has worked with the city on multiple projects that is very interested in doing one of those. The Longmont vet project here in town, not with vets, but the same form on on a property. Sure, so Jack Just one last quick point to Terry's question. Again, before you said boulder. I talked to Daniel Fitzpatrick, who is the president of tiny homes so Association. He's done a ton of work on this. He has written the ordinance for LA, who now allows tiny homes on wheels Fresno allows tiny homes on wheels. There's lions. Those are the two ones that come off right off the top my head, but it's definitely the the code and the regulatory structure has been getting hammered out

[102:05] And actually, a lot of what I have is stuff that's come from Daniel. And then I kind of pulled together all these other places and start parsing through and see what that might look like. So there's some, there's some movement towards it in other locales. It's great. Hens yeah yeah I just wanted to say. I think this is great work here that both of you are doing on this and I look forward. It sounds like you're Going in the area of seeing if you can remediate or suggest different regulations in some way that would facilitate moving ahead with tiny homes on wheels or or stationary and I think it's great. It's, it's good to hear this. We're happy about it. Mason. Okay, do you want to add anything to this discussion, because I know that part of your ad you research. Didn't you guys touch a little bit on tiny houses with wheels when when you were exploring questions.

[103:06] Though, isn't it, it really didn't come up Now, I thought there was a couple meetings I sat in were somewhere different people had talked about I think, you know, people may have said, Are you are you going to address it. And I think our usual refrain was, we have a very narrow scope and it's really focused on Ad us on foundation so it was supposed to be minor changes they end up being a lot more than minor But, um, But I would also. I mean, since you asked me, I would also, I was just looking at the letter again to counsel and I noticed it talks about the tiny on village, but it doesn't talk about tiny homes on wheels so something for you guys to think about. Yeah. And jack, I would add to The tiny house association with Daniel talking to him. So there's four national tiny house.

[104:01] Associations, and they've all bigger between each other about who runs what and does what. But the first step in all of it was the adoption of those recent codes and I know that they had to happen and Peter can jump in. From my understanding was that that was the first step in trying to knock out the pegs that would get us to the point of being able to allow a tiny house on wheels. But that was a big one was this latest adoption of building codes. Before about us to say Sorry, miss. I would also stemming communities for years. I mean, Portland is allowed me on some wheels. Yeah, this is a political will, like jack started this whole Conversation out with We owe. Something about those wheels. Very modern One shapings when we got here. So I don't know what the problem is with the wheel now.

[105:03] Little bit. Um, well, this is great job, Terry. Seems like you to have a lot to discuss and Peter. Thanks for the invite to, you know, come check out that that project you're working on. That's really awesome. To be cleared my project that I'm working on is adjacent but Okay. And that project that HMS is doing is It very much a part of what we're doing, because the roads will be built. So it'd be fun to share with you what we're doing out there like it outside of Boulder. So I'm not constraint. Siding venturing out. Okay. Any, anything else before we move on. All right. We're gonna move on to talk about the annual letter you all should have received an updated version I revised it again because last meeting, we decided to table and offer listening session on housing insecurity to 2021

[106:06] I think this was a really good move on our part. So hopefully you all had a chance to look at the letter, it's, it's different and slightly And I like to get folks, you know, everyone's thoughts it you know if you have specific edits. I mentioned just a process. Point of view specific edit questions, it would be best if you email them to Corey and she'll email them to me. It just, it's tough to do the editing on the screen. Um, however. If there are specific things that you want to be included, you know that you want to discuss as a board right now then, more than happy to Do that and I'm very excited about the letter and would love to hear everyone's thoughts. On it.

[107:00] If there are any I'm sorry what was that Terry Great, great. Great. And Judy good So I had, I had talked to Charlotte about this before so she won't be surprised. The part of what did not work well for the housing advisory board in 2010 I feel that it's A little long, and each section could be cut by some and I could send those, but I also thought that we could still say exactly what we want to say say it in a more positive way. It has been my experience that Council responds better when they're invited to embrace new thoughts, rather than sort of scolded and I was just, that's just my opinion on that. But the other part. And I'm happy to hear what people think about that. But on the other part to suggestions for console, the long term goals I had asked Corey, who then sent me to Charlotte to find out how the tally went because I didn't. The

[108:08] long term goals didn't especially seem reflective of how the tally actually went and that And that also at the last meeting. JULIET And Danny weren't there so I feel that these are important, in essence, we're saying these are the issues we are most about To console that we should actually just at least give a hand thing if we like all of them or make sure there's no new ones and the one that I feel is what the two at the bottom. The consider reallocating portion of the city funds that didn't seem to get a lot of votes in the tally although it was somebody first choice. But also the boulder housing and human services, housing first initiatives I number one, don't understand it. But it wasn't weren't the ones in the tally suggestion I don't think But the one that was left out of the tally suggestion that I thought, lots of people liked

[109:03] When we talked about it at meetings was to simplify the review process for residential permits to decrease the difficulty and expedite it for middle and lower price. Housing and I thought that was when we were all pretty into. And so, so I would just, I just think we owe it to ourselves to really see that there's consensus on all of these points. Or at least majority. Great. Thanks, Judy. Yeah, definitely. I'm happy to add that to the long term goals, um, you know, I included Juliet's Recommendation about the reallocation of funds because I really like that one. And I, I feel that that's a really, you know, creative and innovative approach. I, I do think it's important that our top priorities are reflected here and there are also some that I personally feel should be on here. I added one that you know

[110:12] I added an additional short term goal in response to recent events that not everyone got to vote on. So that's something that I think that should I think should be included. But of course, you know, I want to make sure everyone's Everyone gets their, their voice heard. So Judy, do you have, are you taking art. Do you have an issue with the The long term goal around reallocating funding or You want to speak to them. Right, I Well, first of all, I noticed it in the tally it really only got one or two tallies and yeah I started think that's out of our bailiwick. And I not as interested in that, if we're only going to do three or four I'm more interested in the one that seems like Danny and

[111:05] Yeah. Three in shock have been talking about a lot I mentor, just that I would just like to make sure we all know That we're all invested in the ones that were forwarding to counsel and that there's a majority for each one. So rather than me saying what I'm for against to just sort of do a show of hands about each one. And if there's a majority. Fine, or if people want to discuss fine, but I think this is important enough, we should have a dialogue about it a little. Perfect. Yeah, I'm definitely going to add the simplifying the residential residential review process to long term goals. So, that's perfect. DANNY. GO AHEAD. I agree with Judy's comments on the tally I think was great. I think I don't think it's too long. It's tough to pack everything in the two pages and we've done it so very nice job. I'm sorry. I was I was stuck in a West Phoenix or southwest Phoenix or something.

[112:00] Last month, and and so I think the year and we get the here that's in there, but I think I'm I think all of all i mean i think I think we probably should figure out the challenge thing I'd be happy to hear. We're going to put that a whole notion of the expediting the regulatory stuff back in particularly Somebody today. The one other thing that I would flag is a With Jay brought up, given the conversation we had on tiny homes. Do we want to nuance that a little bit. Because right now, it does very much looks like a tiny homes village, and I think. Yeah, right there. But that's a great idea. A lands really tough to come by and bolder and so Both of the approaches that we've talked about today. I think there's going to be a much better. We see those More quickly. Then we're going to see a tiny homes village developed, you know, somewhere close to the city of Boulder. So that would be the one thing out there. Maybe we want to discuss a little more is you know how we're going to approach it.

[113:08] You know, it's like No, that's a great, that's a really great point. I totally agree. Um, you know, this discussion tonight has been really enriching and and I've definitely learned a lot. So I would definitely like to change that and and Maybe Danny. If you have a suggestion around how to phrase that you know, feel free to send that to me or we can you know come up with that language right now. Um, So, so If we hmm I guess process wise, I'd like to first let's just go through these goals and make sure that we, there's a consensus around each of them and That would be that would be my suggestion, so We can do long term goals first

[114:02] The first one is that the tiny homes village, but We're going to change that to, you know, Terry or It Danny jack. Do you have suggestions or anyone, any suggestions around. You know what that what that what that goal would be. Yeah, go ahead. Danny. Do you have I think I unless anybody has any consternation with it. I like to see something that had a little more breath through something where we say, um, explore potential avenues of employing tiny homes, including High homes villages. County homes as a special way to you or something like that and tiny homes as pie homes mobile tiny homes. On existing properties or something like that, you know, that we have that includes all all those aspects, because it sounds like

[115:01] They all have merit and and you know, help me. We're trying to get as much as we can, wherever we can. Right. So my one suggestion on that we have something that's a little more open ended on it. So I'm gonna kind of like that. I like that. So good, like a wizard wizard wizard. Referral drafted a little bit I just wrote it. Yeah, I wrote, I was typing while you're speaking. Um, and then after that, let's add, you know, simplify residential review process for shop. What did you say you I can actually pull it up. But, you know, you were talking about, you know, renovations addition. Do you want to provide some more color around around that. I have what that was. Oh, you do. Great. Do you want to read that thing that used to be was to simplify the review process for residential permits to decrease difficulty and expedite time for medium and lower price homes. Okay, perfect. And I was just out in the tally

[116:03] Yeah, I think I had did. I sent that Dyson. That's you. Oh, good. That's easy. I'm perfect. And I'll just pull from. And then also, I just want to point out to everyone. As long as they're making these decisions when we had the meeting the joint meeting with HR. See, and we all made our recommendations. There were a couple of things that we loved that we should each mentioned, to see if we care about. And one of them was we were really interested in talking about sanction encampments and we will Also really interested in an oversight committee for the hen house and I don't know if that rises to the level where you guys want to include it or not, but we should see if there's interest in those two And again, I don't care. I just want to make sure that we have a process for each thing. I'm just writing here if anyone wants to jump in on that. Please feel free

[117:00] Okay, I'll jump in and just say that I think some of those things duty staff made it clear that it would be It would be hard for them to Put their Effort behind some of those things, and that we we have there were other things that we would have more Opportunity to focus on and get actually get something done. So I, I was trying to prioritize Or in my, in my recommendations or my vote. To prioritize things where I think we could make a quick impact in a way that we would get the buy in and supportive staff and So the supportive Council so Me the to your point, you know, asking about that reallocating abortion, a portion of the seas current budget for law enforcement and putting it towards boulder housing and Human Services and housing first initiatives we know that that works.

[118:05] We heard it tonight from the folks from fo and housing and Human Services, and if there's a quick way to take budget funding that already exists and reallocated towards housing that we know will be effective. Me. That's a win win for everybody. It takes care of a lot of the social issues that we have right now and The discord that we have in it and it helps in an area that desperately needed. So if I had to prioritize where I was going to ask city council to prioritize things I want to see something that's actually going to happen and how it can happen. Quickly and it seems like there would be a path path or something like that happening. Thanks. Juliet. Does everyone feel comfortable, leaving the and see

[119:04] See I'm seeing what I'm reading and you're not the the reallocation point that the Juliet just made. Does everyone has EVERYONE FEEL ABOUT LEAVING THAT ON THE LETTER. Can you raise your hand, or do you have a comment Mason. Oh yeah, go ahead. Not a comment so much as kind of a question. Um, I understand what Juliet saying about getting things done and I'm curious. Like, what would this look like of us doing so if if council said yes, go ahead and do this. Learn long term goal. What does that actually look like for us. I believe in this, and absolutely think it needs to occur. But it does that mean that we're going to take. We as a board are going to take a look at their budget and tell them where they need to take money from to allocate over And have an answer. I have an answer to that. And I think, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I That's not our role.

[120:01] Our role is to make recommendations. And around housing. So how can we get more people house through housing first initiatives. Right, we could recommend a council say you've got we know you have limited funds city manager, you have to allocate things a certain way. And here's a way that would be positive for the community. When we think about policing. And law enforcement and positively impact people. I think it kills a couple birds with one stone and we don't we don't. That's it. We're just making a recommendation because we see that is something that we could we could make an impact. So we don't administer anything I tell my feeling Yeah, I totally agree with you. So what I'm curious, then, is, is this just a recommendation, should we just write a recommendation that and and then we put this together that we would all agree to if if we all feel like it's something Because I agree with it. But it sounds like it's just a recommendation, not the long term goal.

[121:02] The head right that's Oh yeah, sorry. I was just gonna say the headline of this topic area is suggestions for councils. Housing work plan. So all we're doing is suggesting this for their work plan that in this in these in these points here. I will. I'm just going to jump in. Also, and say that one of one of our functions is to study and recommend to the Council on My website to study and recommend to the Council and city manager long and short range goals ordinances funding priorities and programs to address recognized housing needs so that that to me aligns with what this Yeah. Absolutely. I'm just trying to I absolutely agree with all of that. I'm just trying to say what is the next step look like and Right, if we're just recommending to council that they put this on their work plan then I get it, I get it. I was thinking that it was something we would have a part in

[122:02] That would be nice. 21 but I didn't know what that would look like moving forward. So that's all I was trying to get clarity on. I'm just, I'm for it. Oh, okay. Terry and then sorry Danny jack. I don't know who came up first. It'll be Daniel and jack. Okay, good. Terry Just question. Is there a reason why we're specifying taking money from law enforcement versus some other department or division. There are no, nope. I will say yes, there is. And my rationale Terry was because there has been so much vitriol against law enforcement because of Because of the racial killings and and and things that have happened over the course of this horrible year That people have, you know, people want to defund the police. Right. And I think without necessarily defunding the police. You're just making a reallocation towards something that's really helping

[123:06] Some of the root cause of why law enforcement is having to play such a big role they're asking us to enforce laws are asking being asked to be mental health professionals. They're asking to be being asked to be social workers. So if we just take some of the That money and reallocate it. I think you you get some call without, you know, that sort of satisfies this and I don't like to personally. The phrase D funding police because I think it triggers a whole set of people In a way that's unnecessary. But I think there's a way to reach out to reallocate and look at things a little bit differently. And that's why I suggested made that suggestion, sort of a Compromise place to address a couple of issues that are that are going on, but I'm open to hearing if if there's flawed thinking that are other alternatives. I want to hear it is just an idea. Huh. Yep, there you go ahead, I'm sorry, not tarry Danny, sorry.

[124:02] So the one thing I'd say is I'm just for point of clarification and then maybe this this Is where we put this this bullet point. But we started talking about this. I remember specifically. I mean, going back to when we had our first meeting again when we can be our first meeting. We were talking about this because of the concern that Law enforcement had a pretty we were talking about like the homelessness issue and law enforcement had a very punitive Approach and it wasn't very therapeutic. And, and so there was kind of a double edged negative sword there. And I think that's where we started talking about that. And so I don't know to me. It carries a lot of a lot of strength when you tie it to that specific issue as well because, you know, certainly. I remember us having a lot of conversation. I think that's when we had our joint or joint session with

[125:01] human relations, but it was that I'm sorry I have two dogs that are squaring off the air so sorry about the background noise. But, um, But somehow I mean that it has a lot of residents on that particular issue because we've seen some of the problems that you run into with that and it's it's certainly An area that that kind of screams for reallocating something to this programs that we talked about today to some mental health professionals that can help people rather than, you know, Just treat them punitively etc. And I think that, you know, and that goes away from that whole notion of just the fund the police in a reactive standpoint. It's more you know reallocate funds and I remember using that, you know, dealing with those semantics interesting reallocate funds because they can be spent better here than I thought I support it, but you know that context I think carries a lot of weight. Check. Here's me meet you made it.

[126:05] All right. Right, my two cents on this one is, um, I think that I think it's great to have in here. I agree with the tagging it to law enforcement. Because I think part of what that saying is, other people have been making the point is that it's not only a reallocation of funding, but it's a reallocation of resources and how we provide services that we're really talking about here. It's, you know, in some ways, I take, I guess on the high road it's not a punitive measure against the police, but it's a recognition that we do not Run our social services and police department in a manner that is cohesive and coherent and benefits the community as best you can. And so the funding is obvious that piece of it, but my thought would be that we not necessarily limit this to just law enforcement.

[127:12] Or Or that we add Not only budget and maybe even just the word resources. In there so that it broadens the the perspective of it somewhat and you know maybe takes it away a little bit from that sense of defunding Well, can I just Insert one comment about that. Yep. And that is The resources are already strained. If we know resources exist in one area and we can reallocate them. I think it's easier to just move the money around versus trying to find new money and that is my point and insane to reallocate from one area to another.

[128:00] Thanks. JULIET Yeah, Judy. And so I think everybody's made really good points. My concern is with the money being allocated. To housing, because if you're reallocating police resources that have been interacting with unhealthy populations around town. Those are not likely to be the people who are going into housing first. So that's leaving them without services or policing and and I'd be more interested. I don't know what be there is doing. Jay, maybe you can tell us, and if it's up and running, but I'd rather they're being were allocated and then into direct services when house populations that don't automatically fit into the category. Who are still out there. Housing First seems to be humming along really really well. But those are my thoughts. Yep, Peter.

[129:00] That was talked before about prioritizing open space. Over people, I believe. All OSM P has A budget over 100 million dollars if you want to get your point across suggest reallocating friends from OSM P and then I'll start a conversation I'm Judy. Mason. Yes, Peter. I love that idea. But I'm going to support Juliet, on this. I think what we're doing is we're shifting a mentality of we're not a policing city but a supportive city that's You know, like, I can't remember what the number is. But it was like something we just, we just bought a military tactical think that's like 360 $5,000 like that to me. Also bought Hogan, sorry, sorry. Yeah, please. You know, it's So I think what we're doing is shifting and it's next to OSM P. It's a

[130:05] It's one of the largest chunks out of the budget if I, if I remember correctly, like, and they also got increases. The last go around. I know it's part of their union contract or something like that. But I, yeah, I hear if I'm hearing you right I it's what I would support as well as I think it sets a tone. On the fact that we're not trying to set up our police department to do mental health services when we should be supporting that in a different way. Well, if you could do both. may lessen the blow to those who feel that Very back and we're here, Peter, get on board. It's one of the other Mm hmm. I gotta pick one to defund A reality right Juliet. Do you want to jump in. Well, I was just gonna say that that the idea of touching open space just opens a whole other Pandora's box. It's going to trigger so many people that I think we're just going to end up in a stalemate and a lot in a big screaming match.

[131:08] Which I'm Here for i'm not i want to get Something done and not scream at each other. Well, I'm not using the screaming party of it. But at some point, that can has to get cracked At some point, somebody's gonna have to have the cone ads to start stepping up and having a discussion about it. We're gonna have to tease it apart like human beings at a table. It may But what He got us baby steps. To Danny, I'm going to look. Yeah, but I agree with Julia. I mean, I think. Here again you know we're talking about taking the money from a utilize proton. One thing you get to other departments that can do that one better. If we say open space. There's no nexus. I mean, what are the nexus between open space and a homelessness and housing, etc. So I really liked the idea of

[132:03] tie it together so that we're not we're not here. We're not trying to you know rethink all your policy considerations, but we're telling you that we think there's a better way. Based on what We've discussed and thought about and and really reviewed and her testimony, etc. This whole year. So to me, that's why I really like the whole notion of tying it to that because, yeah, instead of, instead of walk for assessment for a lot of these issues, no human services, housing, better so that that's I just, I'll just say that I like that limited approach. Well, there seems to be consensus around this issue I'm hearing from most people that they really like this jack. Do you have another Oh, you're muted again. I wanted to just ask a question of Jay, on this one real quick. And it does have to do with that second portion of it. And this is specificity of Housing First initiatives and I guess that's the question.

[133:03] Is this, is this broader than housing first really I mean, if we're Talking about reallocating to make a recommendation essentially or asked Council put on the work plan. To me it seems like it's brought nap or that you know you might have as well better to just say reallocated to Boulder housing and Human Services. What, what are your thoughts on that how that would That I don't actually I kind of like the way that you're trying to make the direct connection to housing, because in this, I actually did happen. So, you know, the edge program. The early version get engaged. So that was sort of We, we talked with a Mental Health Partners and to try to get mental health experts to accompany police officers to respond to calls And that program was we really struggled with it and something that happened. Just two months ago is that the police department said, Okay, well, we want to reallocate for positions that we have

[134:09] To human services you bring that service in house and starting in January. We're going to have for mental health experts. Responding to calls instead of police so that allows pleased to respond to, you know, Situations that actually require their expertise. So I think that's sort of the closest example of what you guys are talking about that's that's happening now. But like I said, I think it. I think it makes sense to make that connection directly to housing. Mason, where's your hand up. Jay. Jay, those, those four positions, though report to Harold though right No, they're going to report to Kurt Is going to be with And housing and Human Services. Can be contract employees, you know, that's part of, you know, it said Sarah and Julie, we're talking about City benefits and the pay will be

[135:01] Hopefully enough to retain people for longer periods of time. Yes. So I'm just wondering, Juliet, would you be Amenable at all. This is just a question. No pressure. Would you be amenable to changing the wording of enforcement to Boulder housing and human services, programs for unhealthy people or something like that, rather than specifically housing first I'm sorry you're muted. Oh, I would say. The reason it's housing first is because my so muted. When you know that We know that housing first is successful. So that was the idea behind that. I don't want to try to umbrella it a whole bunch of stuff under it. I want to point it towards things that we know are effective. And get people off the streets and that transition them and give them wraparound services. We heard it tonight from the people who spoke on our call that that is what gets people

[136:06] That's what gets people off the streets is housing and puts them back into productive. Yeah, thanks. I feel pretty strongly about it. I'll stop talking. You're good. No, I was just gonna say, you know, agreed. We know housing first works. And one of the limitations of that program is funding and resources. So I see that that money would be well utilized Judy. I also think I know where you're coming from. So do you want to speak a little I know where you're coming from on asking probing that question. So Well, the reason why I'm hoping it is because if we say housing first. That means that although the police department has already allocated some money to staff. For helping people who are living out on the street or river for that sort of case management changing that. That means that we

[137:03] That we're not. It makes it sound like we're not in favor of that that we wanted to only go to housing first and not to the population that we're asking the police to change from That's all. But if it you know if it doesn't carry it doesn't carry and I respect Juliet, not wanting to change her position well And I also would say I want to just put a little context around that. And this is just suggestions for Council and They may come back to us and say let's talk about what did you mean by this idea and maybe do some brainstorming around it. It's not like this is the only plan. And this is what we want. And this or nothing else. I think it's more of a discussion point and I want you know a specific discussion point. But I think it's just under the context of a suggestion. As part of our letter which I also want to be mindful that we were asked to produce it and very specific format. And thank you, Charlotte for changing the format around of our original letter that you so hard to draft.

[138:02] Put it more into something that ounces asked for in terms of the structure what they're looking for that that will get us some some street cred. Yeah, I'm Uh huh. I guess I just want to say one other thing. I just wanted to make sure I only found out yesterday because I listened to the city council meeting and Charlotte, you said you already knew this, but I want to make sure that Everybody does the dis year city council's doing reports in a different way in the past. They had different board members be responsible for reading and and summarizing what each board and commission said, and this year they're having at the retreat somebody from each Board or Commission present the information. And so I That was in that was an email sent to everyone. But yeah, I was going to get to that, thanks to you for bringing that up so we can decide now or in at our December meeting and you know who that person will be sent this letter, I'm

[139:06] I'm happy to do it. I'm happy if someone else wants to do it. We don't have to decide right now. Good, good point to bring up i'm looking I'm looking at the goals, then You know, I feel comfortable with the long term goals, I will send another round of rivet edition revisions with additions to everyone that reflects the additions. We made tonight and Does anyone want have any discussion points around short term goals. Any questions. Yes, Mason. Are we going to go through this whole like Judy requested to make sure that all five of these goals were what we have consensus on sure Yeah, we can definitely do that. Let's start, we can start with the long term goal since we've we've already discussed them at length jack. Do you have a point

[140:07] Okay, you're muted. Jesus jock. Just really quickly, on the first one on the a, um, I just have a question about that and I think What are we doing, or what's this What is the building upon piece of this, I'm just curious. I don't. I mean, I quite honestly, I don't, I'm not familiar With what the governor's done this point. So on October 23 I believe I'm governor Polish released in executive order recommending that you know local municipalities and, you know, temporary, you know, there's a temporary action. I'm sorry, I just conflated another his recommendation occupancy limits. My apologies.

[141:00] This was his temporary moratorium eviction and late rental fees, which will expire on November 23 so this would just be building upon that and allowing boulder a separate council to, you know, take what the governor has recommended and locked it. Here in Boulder or temporarily or not temporarily more permanently. So that was that. There's another one on occupancy limits, but that was more of a recommendation. Um, but yeah, we can go oh yeah just That's an epic but um so the city council doesn't have any authority or evictions, they wouldn't be able to send eviction more time, they could potentially Prohibit late fees. Which is what, what was it, I think, was a brownfield I think Broomfield recently adopted it. But basically, only the Governor or the district. It's basically a state process.

[142:10] So, So only late my rental fees would apply here like Council our city council. Good. You know, Make that okay there's a mason Clarity, Jay. Did I hear around the fiction moratorium with polis that because boulder is home rule. That's the reason why we didn't adopt it. The moratorium applies to Boulder. Okay. Like there was a discussion at one of the Council's That this didn't apply or they weren't doing something with it. I could be completing myself or several meetings but ok Now, and put them in that they, I think the point is, you know, they can advocate that the governor continue to extend his moratorium and maybe that's just

[143:10] A way to phrase it Got it. Maybe that's how we want to phrase it So, yeah, yeah. No, no, for sure. So Does it traditionally. I mean, he's coming to us, you, the first one back in March. Yeah, every month he extends it Okay, so what is your recommended language chain for Encourage governor polis to extend Oh, okay. So it would be well so this was just applied to have the victim moratorium, but our, our city councilor can actually act on you know this prohibiting, you know, late rental fees. So that seems important So potentially encourage governor polis to extend

[144:02] eviction moratorium. And I'm just going to make some notes and all I still like the late rental fees one yeah okay so If we change a to, you know, encourage governor polls to extend the victim moratorium through 2021 Does that hold with folks and we feel about that. And you could also add the other one is a separate one about the rental fees at the city builder can do That yeah I i think i think we're looking to do more than some cars have them encourage the government to extend it from from reading. Um, yeah, again, sorry I wasn't there last month, but We. What if we said encourage a the government to extend the moratorium through 2021 and explore opportunities to build upon

[145:05] I can't wait. To get out and opportunities to build upon the renters or something of that sort. Because maybe plate. He's maybe it's something else. You know, whatever we can do for saying yeah whatever we can do. We are doing Right, a moratorium on late rental fees moratorium on. I know that I'm just the raw burger. I expect that there are some legislators that will be running bills around late rental fleet late Late rental fees to control that a little bit more because right now it's, you know, wild west landlords can pretty much charge as much as they want. There's no limit on that. So, okay. I like that. I'm going to circulate this again. So I apologize. You can't see my screen. Um, the second short term goal is work with state legislators to immediately provide additional housing and rental assistance and

[146:10] That's slightly in my, in response to the next agenda item, but I'd like to open it up to see what folks think about that. Okay, here you may sensor. Are you going to go back and get a thumbs up on a because again we still haven't done consensus straw polling on the so just Okay, you know, I know that's fine. And then let's do a straw poll on a and I know you can't see what I wrote. But it's pretty much encouraged governor polls to extend the eviction more term through 2021 And explore opportunities to build upon state, you know, the statewide eviction the statewide moratorium on late rental fees. Oh, yeah. What I mean by straw poll is just making sure that we're in agreement to move forward. I'm not looking for specific language that Because I know you're going to send out an update, but just want to make sure that we're all on the same page that these are what we want.

[147:03] Okay, um, Are. How many are in favor of keeping that in our letter. That's consensus. Less Terry. So are we good to move on to the next. And the next, I would just like to suggest and continue to work with because I could. I think the city's really worked hard to come up so far. It's just that there's lots more coming. Mm hmm. That's a, that's a small change that I can make for sure. Um, so do we all All in favor of keeping be In the water Can everyone raised their hand if they're in favor of keeping keeping that 123456 Which which one was that

[148:01] So that's can be for for turn, yo. Okay perfect, so we're at a consensus there and then see is revisit residential occupancy limits in the context of The governor's recent executive orders and long term issues raised by community members. And councils already discussed revisiting this. So I think we're just kind of endorsing that all in favor of keeping that in our, in our letter. 123456 grapes. And then d is examine cooperative efforts with nonprofits and faith, faith based communities to implement safe parking lots for the duration of To Ellen, whoever of keeping that in our letter. Or comp comments, Judy, do you have a comment on that you're kind of like we Know I'm just, I'm No, I just obviously I support safe parking lots tremendously. I'm just not sure if that's already happening with or without us. But, or I mean, with or without counsel.

[149:06] But trying to put and keeping their attention. Attention. Yeah, well, no it two weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we can revise this, you know, again, you know, change things. So you don't have to submit this until like December eight, or 12 to look at the date. I'm all in favor of keeping this sorry I did not see hands. A four or five six. Okay, great. Let's go to long term goals. Then, and this is the excuse me explore potential avenues of Of employing tiny homes language is kind of funny, but we can change that explore potential avenues of employing tiny homes, including tiny villages tiny homes, especially to us and mobile tiny homes on existing properties that was Danny suggestion. Do you have a point, Terry.

[150:00] Or you Voting. Okay, great. Let's, let's vote on that. Are we good with keeping that okay great consensus and then be would be simplified the review process for residential permit for residential wait sorry for you to have this weird This is simplifying the review resident or process to decrease difficulty and expedite time is essentially the essence of this point, it can be rewritten, but all in favor of keeping that in a letter. Yes, sir. Moving on. Okay, can then the sea is considered reallocating a portion of the city's current budget for law enforcement to the boulder housing and human services, housing first initiatives. On favor. Okay. So we have a consensus on all we is great.

[151:00] And then I just wanted to Yeah, I just want to say that I, you know, wrote this letter in, you know, with integrity and honesty. I'm not trying to sugarcoat things, you know, in the, what did not work well for the housing advisory board, I'm honest. This city council has clearly been honest with us about what how they think, you know, with what they think of this board. You know, continually degrading our board and you know disrespecting our work, you know, we are passionate people and we deserve that. You know, I'm not here to be sick of FANS, YOU KNOW, I'M HERE TO BE HONEST WITH THE CITY COUNCIL so that I'm I'm interested in keeping what's written and I don't think it's repetitive, but any other thoughts Neeson. I just want to acknowledge you for the work that you did on both the first one, this one, and now a third revision on it.

[152:07] These letters are not easy to draft and it's hard to coalesce a whole board around putting something together and it's sometimes not easy. To put something together and then have somebody pull it all apart. So I just you've done a lot of work since taking over chair and I just want to acknowledge the work that you've done on this letter. It's a good solid format and it's well written. Thank you. First, say I did my best and I'm glad we did the straw poll thing. I didn't mean I didn't want to blindside anyone at all. Yeah, Judy. Go ahead. I think you've done a great job. And I think it was really good to have a discussion. I just wanted to mention that we're probably We're not our next meeting will be after we probably need to send it in. So I think we probably should vote on. We're good with everything today, knowing that you'll make Some changes a little words here and there, but that they just have it will be the same because we don't have another meeting to do that.

[153:04] Right. Yes. J. One is Not do The letter technically isn't due to like I was gonna bring this up and if the board like there was not a December meeting we chose to skip that month because of the holidays and, you know, other Light workload, but I think my sense is that there's enough direction from the board in terms of the letter that you could vote on it tonight if you wanted to. If Charlotte, the freedom to make sort of mine editorial changes. Yeah, it looks like our meetings actually on the 16th and then it's do on the Eight 818 yes So we could easily do it next month as well. Yeah. For sure. Um, so I mean, with that said, I'm I'm Uncomfortable bringing a motion to approve this letter, you know, allowing me to make minor changes. And then, you know, of course, having course resend it to all of you. So you can review it, you know, full transparency, before we send this to Council.

[154:13] We can decide at the next meeting, who will want to present this in January at the retreat. Not sure that's going to be in person or virtual but Virtual yeah Yep. Um, so, Jay, would I make that motion or just someone else need to make but You can. Okay. Okay. And then, um, I'll make the motion to for the board to approve this letter. As, as is allowing me to make minor edits and you know getting all of your eyes on it before, before It goes By December 18th

[155:02] Well, second up On favor 234567 wow passes unanimously brilliant one other one thing I was wondering is, Jay, do we have an official housing advisory board letterhead that we can add to this like a Official Silva Turner I was looking for a letter last year's letter Corey, do we have anything Something that you can take like a stakes. Out. Is you can attach it to the door of Council. Paper like Can deliver this each council member So we don't. Oh, well, we'll. What do you use on our Hang on, I'm going to look at our I mean, we could put like the Mountains. I don't know, it's not a big deal. I should

[156:02] We use the the city. Housing advisory board on it. Yeah. Well, I mean we we could modify what we use for the agenda. It doesn't really matter, but the Metals in your visor e board and then you could Worry You might have turned that into a memo. Yeah, exactly. Do you want me to send you that, and you can play with Me. Or do you want us we can do I can do it. I have InDesign. So I can make it pretty Crazy. Okay, great. Let me orient myself here. Okay, great, good good talk, we're gonna move on. To my added agenda item. Um, and this is and in response to Hold it says Press meeting yesterday, I think it was yesterday.

[157:05] The day is or congealing but whole is essentially he called for a special LEGISLATIVE SESSION, AND THEY MENTIONED, and they want to prioritize rental and housing assistance. In this session, and I'm bringing this up because we have an opportunity as a board to lobby our current legislators, especially Senate Majority Leader fen Berg house immediate relief to remove barriers for municipal action, you know, this includes the state preemption that actually does denies affordability metrics. In Boulder. And so I just wanted to bring this up as as a potential opportunity for the board to make an impact at the state level and I want to run this by Jay because I'm not actually sure we're allowed to do this.

[158:05] Really So serving. We've talked about this a little bit before but yeah I mean your advisory to counsel, counsel admin staff can't win either So it has to be from counsel to advocate at any level of government. That doesn't, but you can do it as as individuals. Yeah. You can all agree that yes individually, you're going to do it. And you could say you're part of the housing advisory board but The board. It's a bummer. But I understand what are you gonna do anyways. Now, you know, um, You know, send emails, send the majority leader. Stephen enberg um, you know, I'm sure he'd love to hear from housing advisory board members individually. I suppose also Judy and Molly. Yes, mm hmm, is she so she's Speaker of the House, no.

[159:04] No, I think she just got elected for the first time, this time to replace Casey CASEY Gawker right yeah she replaced Casey backer who was bigger house got it right. Yeah, okay. Well now you know, not much we can do on that. But I wanted, I wanted to add one other thing about general, it's been A long slog. Everybody has fatigue and at the city council meeting last night. I'm pretty sure somebody said that Jared Polis was really asking people like city council's To also be ambassadors for things like being safe and wearing masks and this and that. I just, I just thought I'd mentioned that, like, we may not have a very big reach right but for all of us to do what we can to To promote to promote wearing masks and social discipline and washing our hands and all that to get through this. Or it can be over soon.

[160:01] That's Good stuff. Okay. We'll move on to new business and I'm You know, this came up a few months ago. And I just wanted to bring up you know the commitment and participation of each member, um, you know, this has been a really great meeting and I think everyone has been super engaged. I'm really excited about the work that Terry and jack have been doing and I guess this came up because a lot of work was put on through different people. A few months ago and it was a lot. It was really straining and Um, it just something to consider. We don't you know just just just a point in bringing up you know How, how many hours are we putting into this board what what do we expect each member to You know, what is the bandwidth that each member has and you know when I applied for this board. I was very ready to you know put in like 10 hours a week into this board because that's what

[161:10] You know the patients that and so I like you know that's what i i was committed to. And so I just something to think about. You know what each each board member wants to contribute and you know how many, how many hours we feels reasonable. I just want to make sure that a few individuals aren't you know getting dried out from all the work. So that was just something to bring up Don't have to discuss it or anything. But yeah, just something to think about. Um, That's, that's all I have for now. Um, are there any any additional comments before we go to matters from staff. No, this has been a really great meeting. I'm really happy with how this is gone. Really great discussion and

[162:06] debrief after Jay, um, I'll pass the baton to you. To speak about things. you're muted. So I know some people have been having challenges getting communications to count city council through hotline. So I was just curious, how many people Do we, you know, are able to get the emails through hotline read them because I think it is pretty fairly important information just to be able to track what's going on with the city and I would highly recommend You don't have to read every email and or all the entire email, but it gets you a sense of what's going on. So I just wanted to offer up if anyone wants to get them in as having difficulty I can have our IT department look into it so

[163:01] I could If the group wanted to, we could also add the have list to hotline as a way but that would require everybody to want to get those extra emails. I get them already. So I signed up for them. They I was getting them and then whatever reason they've disappeared from my inbox, so What about You, you're muted. Same thing. I used to get them and then they stopped. So I would love if everyone's willing, I'd love to have had get them so we could all see them. I get them, but I'm fine was getting again and I'll just uninstall unsubscribe on my other one I got them and I haven't been so I agree that would be great if we had that Hey, that'd be great. Okay. Yay. Okay, with that, I will try and make sure that happens. I didn't look into it first. So that might be an issue with it. Adding a distribution list to a distribution list but

[164:07] Um, I'm the only I guess one other thing. So I, I got the sense that, you know, having Sarah and Julie Kristen was extremely helpful. I mean, there's so much going on. And it's hard for me to even keep track and it's my full time job. So, you know, I would encourage you to, if there are topics like that. That you feel like You'd like to learn more about we're more than happy to pull in the right people to have those conversations So think about that. Mason. Yeah, I really would like to see if anybody else has interest in the board that Julie had brought up. Yeah. The group of Angels coming to speak. I'd really like to see if we could get them on our schedule.

[165:01] Michael was the housing insecurity listening session would be a great place for them to come Yeah, so that was my next sort of question for the group is, you know, what are, what agenda items. Do you want to discuss in December. Mm hmm. I sort of, you know, floated the idea of maybe not having a meeting, December but I want to make sure that if we do that, it's productive and that everybody can be there and participate I thought we had already. I thought there was no meeting in December. That get added We just pushed it we moved it back a week, like we did this month through that a halt due to the holiday. So this meeting was supposed to be next week as well as December's meetings. We like the week of Christmas. And so we just pushed it and I, how many people can attend the December meeting, please raise your hand if you can't attend some Work on lockdown. So we should all be able to What are you doing,

[166:02] No, no. You know I wouldn't mind putting a motion forward of skipping December. For you, won't you, Know what I like the idea We do. We have I guess my question would be, do we had anything particular that we're Thinking about putting on there. I mean, that's A good question, I guess. I was thinking that we would primarily, you know, discuss the listening session shore that up so we could do it within the first couple months of January, but you know i i think we can also discuss that, you know, in our January meeting. I'm comfortable never Yeah. My only thought was a revisit on tiny home stuff, but that also could go to January.

[167:05] Though masonry going emotion for her. I was waiting to see if Judy or Julia anything to say. I would want to have a meeting about to not have a meeting. That's the way That's great. And then there's no me. Yeah. We don't have a substantial amount of things to talk about. I would say, let's give it and and get excited to to get some things done in the new year. I just pick the point we might all be really important lonely. By then, so Okay, we're all in favor of skipping December's meeting and pushing any items to January I say I or thumbs.

[168:12] All in favor of it. Four and three I mean, if you guys want it. I'm cool. I Think you do have to be on lockdown starting Friday so I'm good with Colin. I'm just saying is, like, you know, if there's nothing to talk about. I can always come up with things to talk about. So Maybe things will come up, but within, you know, between now and December 16 but also. Okay. What, why don't why don't we just leave it scheduled for now then. And then, uh, if, if there's nothing or or whatever, then we can always continue right Charity.

[169:01] Unfortunately you you would have to if you want to cancel, you'd have to meet to cancel the meeting. That's true. Love it. I'm fine. You don't have to If you, if you like your Form. Again, it's a it's a vote for people Or It doesn't really matter. I mean, you're not you're not making a decision, unless something comes up this We did just vote on emotion. And I can withdraw it. Already, but that's okay. It's really ok Ok now. Let's just keep it. Okay, I'll withdraw the motion will keep the meeting. Right, so sometimes people are gonna have to do work between now and then.

[170:06] Great. Okay. I agenda. And okay, we've done our calendar, check it is 850 We should do it during the meeting. Oh, I'm gonna put it like this is emotion. This is a motion to adjourn the meeting. Second, All in favor. Aye. Passes unanimously. I didn't see Terry something, you must keep going but I won't keep going. Let's keep going. All right. Good night, everyone. Thanks, Jay. Hi, honey. Thanksgiving. Thanks. Good.