August 13, 2025 — Design Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:01] Okay. … I call this design review board meeting to order. Today's Wednesday, August 13th, 4pm. … We can go… Do we… we need to do introductions, I guess? I'm Brendan Ash, the chair, DAB. I'm Mark McIntyre, I'm back as Planning Board Liaison, so hello everybody again. Welcome back. Steven Eckert, a… One of the DAB board members. Matthew Schechsneiner, Deb. written. Harriet Ingham, one of the DAB board members.

[1:08] Mmm. Do we… do you… is anybody at staff? Want to make an introduction, or are we…. Oh my god. I'm, Charles Farrow, I'm the Senior Planning Manager in Planning and Development Services, and my team, Alex and Shannon, will be presenting some items to you tonight. And Kulani Paho, I'm the staff liaison to DAB. I'm Amanda Cussworth, I'll be helping out as Board Secretary. I'm Amelia Harvey, and I'm also Board Support. Thank you. … Great, maybe we can, jump into the approval of the meeting minutes from the previous meeting. … If somebody has those to pull up.

[2:03] Unless we don't need to pull them up, then we can…. We don't have to pull them up. Okay. As long as you all have reviewed them and…. would like to… Propose a motion to approve or not? Yeah, I mean, I thought that they looked… … They looked… Great. I think there was a good collaboration between our notes and staff notes, and I thought that they looked accurate. So I, … Anybody want to propose a motion to approve? I will. Yeah, I move to approve the minutes. thickened it. Okay. All, all in favor? Aye. Bye. Bye. Hmm. Yep, bye. Okay, great. That was easy. Any, anybody for public participation? Have we had any.

[3:06] Yeah, let me just go over the rules of decorum. It looks like we've got some attendees with us today, so I will do that real quick. Just share my screen here. Got a couple slides to go over this. Sorry, I had some updates on Zoom, so I'm like… struggling with the toolbar down below from the last time I was here. Where is the share button? There it is. … great. Oh, Chuck, sorry about that, everybody. Hold on one…. Maybe there you want to introduce yourself, and we just approved the minute, so…. Yeah, I saw… I was in as I Love Buck Architects under the… my professional account, and you guys didn't notice me. I was trying to send emails. I felt like I was trapped in a ship in a bottle or something. Sorry, Rory. You're all good. I figured it out.

[4:02] Alright, great. Well, welcome, everyone, to Design Advisory Board. Just gonna go over some public participation and meeting guidelines. The City has engaged with community members to co-create a vision for productive, meaningful, and inclusive civic conversations. This vision supports physical and emotional safety for community members, staff, and board and commission members, as well as democracy for people of all ages, identities, lived experiences, and political perspectives. For more information about our vision and the community engagement processes, you can visit our website. The following are examples of rules of decorum found in the Boulder Revised Code and other guidelines that support this vision. These will be upheld during this meeting. All remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to city business. No participant shall make threats or use other forms of intimidation against any person. Obscenity, racial epithets, and other speech and behavior.

[5:02] that disrupts or otherwise impedes the ability to conduct the meeting are prohibited. Participants are required to identify themselves using the name they are commonly known by, and individuals must display their whole name before being allowed to speak online. We are in the Zoom webinar format, so, if you would like to speak at any time, please, raise your… or during public participation and our two cases this evening, please hover your mouse over the raise hand function, or button below. And when it's your turn, I will call upon you, and we will be able to unmute you. I don't see anybody on the phone, so I will skip. those instructions. The raise hand button can also be found in the reactions. … Under the, toolbar as well. So with that, we will just go ahead and start.

[6:00] … Opportunity for open comment tonight for anything, that is outside of what's on the agenda. I'll give everybody a moment to raise their hand if you'd like to speak during this time. Oops, sorry, I'm not… I'm still sharing. And I'm not seeing any hands raised at the moment. So, if you'd like… Brendan, you can take us back over. You're muted, Brendan, we can't hear ya. Great. So, we have, two projects this evening, that we'll be discussing, and hopefully we can Stick to a, …

[7:00] a good schedule on… because we have a lot of criteria to… to cover, for this… for the second. The first project is, the 1100 Spruce Street, parking garage area, and… Maybe, staff can give us a… A summary on that. Yeah, hi, I'm Alex Pichaz. I'm a senior city planner here, reviewing this project, and so, essentially, 1100 Spruce Street is… In for a minor modification review for proposed facade changes that will Update the existing facade, providing weatherization to certain areas, and replacing steel storefront systems that are eroding with aluminum storefront systems. The project was approved originally through… or the building was approved originally through a 1987 PUD, and that's what…

[8:06] Triggers this minor modification review for the facade changes. And the reason that the project is before DAB is because it exceeds the $25,000 project valuation threshold. And in reviewing the downtown urban design guidelines, staff finds that it's compliant with all those guidelines, and there's no key issues to discuss that staff identifies. So, I guess we can also turn it over to, the applicant to present The project in a little bit more detail. And so it looks like that's PEH… architects, I believe they're gonna be the ones, presenting. So…. Great, they are rejoining us as a panelist. Cool. Okay.

[9:10] Let's leave that. Everybody hear us? PEH architects? Yes. Right. Afternoon, board members and city staff, thanks for… thanks for having us today. I'm Chris Murdo with PEH Architects. I'm a principal here. I'm Mary Blazer, I am the project manager for the project in our office. And, I think we've got a couple of our client representatives from the city's Community Vitality Office, too, that are listening in. I don't know if they want to make any remarks today, and I think they've got the opportunity to raise their hand if they want to, but we'll give you a, … brief overview of the project, and then, I think we've got a… we've got that 3D interactive model ready to go that we can share, afterwards if anybody wants to take a look at any of the

[10:08] elements that we've got here. But, we were hired, by the city back at the end of 2024 to start taking a look at this project, and, the elements that Alex mentioned are just a small subset of all of the components of this project. There's… there's a lot of love, that the garage needs since its inception in the… In the 80s, and so there's a variety of items on… on our scope list that, aren't under the review of DAB here, and so we're looking at everything from, resealing, re-traffic coating the… the parking garage floors, to ceiling cracks, to… Amending water infiltration, replacing. lighting within the building, I mean, it really does run the gamut of just about every design discipline, but, the…

[11:08] components that Alex mentioned, … that are public-facing, that we're… that we're here presenting today. There are a few of them. Mary looks like maybe she's getting ready to bring up this model, so I'll let her do that as I continue speaking. But I think the biggest one here is the, replacements of… Old… steel storefront, … along the Spruce and 11th Street's frontage. The existing… it's existing, from the original 1980s construction to this building. It's an old steel, system that appears to be site-built, single-glazed, with steel frames. And so it has…

[12:01] shown its age, you know, now that it's, 40-something years old. And so, it's starting to rust, deteriorate, et cetera, in several areas. And so, that… That storefront that's there, also has an integral, I mean, truly integrated into that steel frame for the windows and the doors, an awning system, a steel and glass awning system that, if we end up replacing this steel framing for the glazing, we are gonna, by nature of how it's constructed, have to replace the steel and glass awnings. And so, as we started taking a look at this particular component of the project. our city client came back and said, and I'm going to reference picture 3 right now, they came back and said, well, we've got a lot of water infiltration into this building, and one of the main areas that we've identified that water infiltration is the big.

[13:08] multiple openings, along Spruce Street. And it sees a variety. It sees… it sees, moisture coming out of the sky in the form of rain and snow. It sees water infiltration from the sidewalk along the surface. It's… it's a pretty, problematic area for them. So, they've asked us to look at how we can enclose that opening. And so, part of what we've presented today is a proposed enclosure of those openings with a system that would complement the system that we're going to replace for the existing tenant spaces, and not just down there at the pedestrian level, but also up at the second level, it also appears in picture 3 there. There are some openings up above that also let in, water. Spell events. So, …

[14:01] We've got a curtain wall system that goes in there that, like I said, complements the tenant space. And so here's just a couple of shots of what that storefront would look like, but you'll also see that we've got the replacement awnings, shown in these renderings. And so, as we started to look into those. our client said to us, well, we've got some awnings that are down in a different parking garage, the one down at 15th and Pearl. That were installed a while back, that they said, they like the look of, they like the functionality of, and they asked us to take that as a cue. for, how we design these replacement awnings. And so, we've got those replacement awnings, shown in concept here, and you'll see that, Down low at the pedestrian level, at sort of knee-slash-waist level, there's some opaque panels that mimic the current opaque panels that are in the steel frame storefront.

[15:05] And we've tried to take some of the colors of the awnings as they march down 11th, turn the corner down Spruce Street, and we've tried to match some of those colors down at the pedestrian level to the colors, that are up at the awnings. And so, … that's what I'd consider the main component of what we're presenting today. There's a similar component, you know, talking about water infiltration and weather protection. You can see in the bottom right photo the view of 11th Street. There's a stairway that's down there at that southwest corner of the building. There's another stairway at the southeast corner down the alley that are completely open to the elements, and those stairways have presented a challenge to city staff to try to keep, Try to keep clean, to try to keep, … concealed from the weather. They see quite a bit of rain, snow, etc, that present sort of a safety challenge to users of the garage, and so they've asked us to partially enclose those stairways.

[16:14] to, to try to keep wind and rain and snow out of them, while still present… while still offering security for people using the stairways, and not having to condition them, keeping them open to… … Open to ambient temperatures outside, but just as a way to try to act as a wind and rain and snow lock. And so we've got a system in there that's designed to, match some of the aesthetic over on that part of the building, which is slightly different than some of the aesthetic we see down at the pedestrian level on 11th and Spruce Streets, and so we've maintained that aesthetic in these views with the darker storefront that's present. In that part of the building. You're also seeing an elevator core there as well that's, attached.

[17:02] to the stairway, we've been asked to replace that glazing at the elevator core, because just like with the storefront at the tenant spaces. that steel-framed enclosure for the elevators has deteriorated just as badly, if not worse, as some of those tenant space storefronts. So we'll replace all of that glazing and framing with a system That will match the design of the system that's at the tenant spaces, but like I said, just with a different color to match the differing aesthetic at that part of the building. I think that covers everything under design. I don't know if it's on docket. So, … what we've got up on the screen just matches the… I think the slides that everybody's seen already, so we're happy to talk about those, answer any questions about those, or we could pull up the interactive model that we've got that I think Mary flashed on the screen quickly, and we could walk people around that and take people into any part of that that we need.

[18:05] So, I think that's the… unless Mary wants to say anything, I think that's the end of our presentation. Have a good day. Alright, thank you. Oh, my God. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I was gonna say thank you for that presentation. You know, as we introduced this project, it more or less was… is… is a slam dunk, as they say, more of a formality of meeting before DAV. But I think we… we did have two, quite, you know, two things that we wanted to just address. quickly as a board. The first one being the, the color… colors of the awnings in the span… in the bottom glass spandrel panel, I guess, of the storefront system. And then the second question I had would… is in regards to the trash enclosure and, durability in that… in that alley area.

[19:05] Can you… so, I guess the… the question that… that came up, in our planning session for this meeting was, the coloring of the awnings, and, you know, how it relates to maybe the TI or the retail tenants that are going in there. If there was an opportunity to have more uniformity and then individual branding for the retail that goes in there, that perhaps, you know, teal or orange isn't their branding color, and you know, they want to… to have some… some more flexibility and individuality on… on their awnings, and perhaps the color at the base as well. If there's an option for that, and if there's, like, a more uniform

[20:00] awning… Color and spandrel-based color that… that could be set… studied. Brandon, before we get into that, I mean, I'm not… personally, I'm not… it's not a slam dunk for me at all. I was… I saw this when I looked, I was like, whoa, why are they losing… the glass. Awning. It's one of the… coolest features in downtown Boulder, and… it's a big bummer, and if it's cost, you know, I understand that, but at the same time. Boy, … it's really a step down architecturally, from what is existing. I understand that … you know, the steel degraded and it needs to be replaced, but I'm not… I just want to… Some information as to why… I'm replacing the glass portion, which is very delicate, and it's, you know, it's almost French, and it's…

[21:03] Treatment, you know, it has some… kind of metropolis aspects to it, from you know, Paris, this is, like, one of the most interesting things downtown. And it just feels like a big bummer to go to a… a cloth, awning here. So, I wonder if you guys might just tell me what happened and why… And I'm not sure how that… You know, fits our guidelines in terms of repairing and replacing what's existing. So, and I don't want to be harsh, I just… I walked…. He's got a…. I'm like, wow, this is… boy, this is a bummer. Before we go further on the discussion, the board needs to open up for public comment, see if anybody is. In the audience wanting to speak on the… on this project? Thanks, Kalani, for…. Yeah, sorry. For learning, learning the rules here.

[22:03] Yes, thank you all. If, anyone that's attending would like to make comment on this item in particular, now's your opportunity to do so, and you'll be given 3 minutes. Pause for just a moment, see if anyone would like to raise their hand. Okay. I don't see any hands raised. Okay, so, are we back to now, addressing, Stephen's question? Is that… is that up, up for us now? Please, that would be great. Sure. So when, … When we first looked at the replacements of those, we had presented a couple of options to our client on how we could replace

[23:02] those awnings. One of them was a glass replacement, and when we… as we talked through the various options, they came back and said to us that the canvas awnings that they installed down at the 15th and 15th and Pearl Garage, worked well for them, and they asked us to take a look what that would look like in this context. And so, after we presented to them this option, they said, that's the one that they like, and so that's the one we've run with, up until now. So, I hear you on the stark difference between the two, but like I said, I think what we ended up with was instruction from our client on. Sure. Did they give you reasons as to why they wanted…. that… I mean, I'm curious why you can't reuse the existing… I mean, it's not part of… I mean, you said it was part of the… assembly, but I wonder why they couldn't, you know, do an adaptive reuse of those… the existing awnings.

[24:06] You know, and figure out a way to integrate them into the new aluminum component, but…. Well, there's a couple of issues, with that. Erica, Ben, and, … Chelsea and Christine with the city, the clients, would like to make some comments. They are off the meeting. If they can be granted some access. I think they'll have the answers that you're seeking. Okay. Oh, sure. I'm sorry, I… I caught Chelsea, is that what you said, and somebody else? Chelsea and. Oh, okay, I promoted Chelsea. Oh, cool. Hi. Okay. Great. Hi, Steven. I am the project analyst for Community Vitality, and also managing on behalf of the city this project. So, the decision against the glass is kind of twofold. The cost, yes, was one indicator, especially because we are in a time of

[25:15] the main focus of this project is to manage and fix a lot of the deferred maintenance that this building has seen over the past decade or so. So cost is one piece of it. The other op… the other side of it is actually maintaining the asset in the most responsibly… responsible fashion from a financial standpoint and from our staff standpoint. So, the glass, it is It is beautiful, and it's nice to look at, but it is very hard for us to maintain and keep in a way that is… it looks nice all the time, because the water When it rains, when it snows, it sets on top of those panels. And to have us come out and, you know, clean those glass structures.

[26:03] every, you know, month, three weeks, whatever it may be, there is a large staff time portion of that, as well as the cost to actually keep it in a place where it looks nice instead of neglected. So there were quite a few discussions with leadership on the choice. And we did like the idea of our structures, so we have 5 structures that are maintained and owned by Kagid, and so there was a decision to have continuity in the design of the awnings. So, as mentioned, 1500 Pearl has those Awnings that are fabric, and we would like to kind of keep that with all of our buildings so that there is some sort of recognition within the community that these are city or Cajun-owned garages. So we're trying to do our best to balance the needs of financial, as well as keeping the cool design, but also within the means of What we're able to do financially and from a resource standpoint.

[27:04] Sure, but. Overhanging the sidewalks as well, right? It's a right-of-way? issue, and I think, having worked on the 1102 Pearl Building just Down the block. Those awnings have to… if they are on the public right-of-way, they have to be detachable, which, you know, steel and glass awnings exceed the weight limits of A lot of those detachable awnings, and it just… it's starting to make more sense to do Canvas. especially because if maintenance comes through and has to do something on that sidewalk, and they have to detach that steel and glass awning, I'm sure it makes for… An added expense and approval process. I… I just feel like this is… I mean, this is why we have DAB. I mean, this… This is a… a gem downtown that we're losing, we're gonna lose, and… you know, and it…

[28:01] I'm not buying the continuity argument, because we don't really want our buildings to all look the same across the landscape. But… you know, I know… I understand there's cost, but it's… I mean, this really is an important gem. I mean, if this was… if this building was 50 years old, this would be landmarked. I mean, we don't have a lot of great architectural elements in Boulder that stand out, and this is… this is one of them. And I mean, I gotta say, you know, that it would be a big step down. I mean, this… Quite frankly, it's like we're going from a really great, cool. detail that was not cheap, but it was thought about, and we're stepping down to something that looks a lot like a strip mall. I mean, not even a lot like it, it is a strip mall. That, I mean… It's… it's just not there. I mean, I don't… I mean, quite frankly, it'd be better not to have any awnings than…

[29:04] than what's being shown here, and I don't… You know, if we're… we're standing up for our architecture in our… community, here's a place where the city has a responsibility to repair and replace what's there, and I, you know, I… like I said, I've walked by here a thousand times. I live right downtown, and… I'm not seeing it as… Feeling degraded, you know, the awning itself. … And it's… it's gonna be a big bummer. You're gonna get a… a lot of people are gonna be bummed. … And, you know, I don't… I don't think it's responsible. And, you know, I don't… I don't have much more to say about it. I don't know what, you know, what our authority is. We don't really have much authority, we're just sort of an advisory board, but, you know, it's a big bummer. If landmarks….

[30:01] Hey, Steen, let's see, Charles and Mark have their hands up, and Mark, planning board. It'll be interesting to see here where they're coming. Yeah, they're awesome. truth. Okay. Thanks, Marie. I certainly appreciate the comments, Steven, and I understand the maintenance concerns as well from the applicant. From the regulatory perspective. cloth and canvas awnings, are something that's supported in the downtown design guidelines for the non-historic interface area, which is where we're at, I think it's 21C. So again, just from the, consistency with the guidelines, this is something that would be, allowed through the, Urban design manual that would apply to this area. What's you, Mark? Thanks. I just… point of clarification, for me. Is this entire structure owned by the City of Boulder, or is there any joint ownership

[31:03] At the retail frontage. It is owned by the Central Area General Improvement District, and the signing authority for that is Chris Jones with Community Vitality under the City of Boulder. And does the city manage this Cajun. manage… the leasing and lease terms and, everything in regard to the retail frontage on, both, Spruce and Eleven. Correct. So the… all the tenant spaces are leased by CAGID to the current tenants. Do any of their leases, … Allow for any input or any, …

[32:00] Do they have any say in any of their leases in regard to, The visual, the exterior, maintenance of glass, maintenance of awnings, etc. No. It's not specifically called out in their leases. It's technically just within the building itself, so the exterior does fall… like, the main maintenance of the exterior of the building does fall on our city… caged ownership. Is that what you're asking? Sorry. Yes. Okay. Times in a, In commercial leases and a triple net lease. a tenant may be responsible for glass, windows, door structures, you know, if a door fails, it might be the tenant's responsibility. So I just wanted to clarify who is responsible for what? And it sounds like,

[33:00] The tenant is only responsible for the space inside the front and nothing on the facade. That is correct, yeah. Interior improvements only are the responsibility of the tenants. And… and signage. Crap. I can tell you, maybe you ask the tenants, would you rather have this, or would you rather have the glass if they have to go out and clean it once in a while? They may have an opinion. That would be, yeah, we'll clean it. This is an asset. … I mean, if you're gonna go this route, I mean. Again, this sort of delicacy and the… kind of Parisian look of this. Maybe it's something… they're all uniform, and there's a big rep stripe. …. You know, that you're doing on the awning, or something. I, you know, it's…. it's really a downgrade. I mean, I… if…. If you put these two pictures in the newspaper, I guarantee. You will have people who are not happy. So, I think, Steven, in the interest of time, only because we.

[34:02] Yay. Allowed, really, a very small amount of time for this project. … I mean, I think we can't… they meet the design guidelines and, and we can't really alter their… their target budget. by recommending that they put the steel and glass awnings back in. But if… if… … I would like to hear if, quickly, if we have any additional comments from The rest of the board. Yeah, I think…. I mean? Yeah, I'll just jump in, just because I know we're going to run short on time here. So, I think, I mean, Steven, I clearly hear where you're coming from. I think there's probably some feasibility issues with trying to, you know, like, what would the cost be to kind of reinstall all this and maintain this character, and is the juice worth the squeeze on it? And I think it's… I think we can include in the notes that, Steven, that, you know, the DAB…

[35:02] there was members of Dev that had opinions that were not in support of this. I think that's fair to have in the notes, and appropriate. teeth that has not being a quasi-judicial board and, you know, them actually having checked every box in, you know, sort of their requirements is just a whole other story. So it's more of an opinion documentation at that point. I think from my perspective, if we are heading in this direction, because of all the feasibility, budget, etc. that we just described, I guess I would just caution this, like, sort of taste the rainbow approach, where we have all the different colors, and they're sort of represented for each tenant space, I think what's working successfully on 15th and Pearl is that it's all for the Mont Bell tenant, and so that color is their logo. And so, back to sort of creating, sort of uniformity and expected maintenance, and if somebody comes to repair an awning, I get it. That armature, that sort of triangular armature that is steel that

[36:02] you know, maybe it has some Parisian quality to it, Steve. Even the one on 15th is, like, an open steel truss. And then the canvas is… would be supplied by a particular tenant that would actually give them the flexibility for branding the way that Montbell has. I think this is a… this is just a lot to just see the taste of the rainbow here. And then the fact that it's gonna be from awning down to the spandrel at the floor just, to me, further illustrates that that's too much visual noise. I think I'd prefer to either see it be a uniform color, and then logos and things could be branded the way that Montbell has done on 15th. Or I'd prefer it to, you know, the spandrels to stay one color, and that all of the canvas is the responsibility of the tenant. To use for a branding opportunity. But this sort of suggestive color scheme feels sort of elementary to me, like primary school to me. Yeah, I mean, going with, like, the… on the right, where they have the purp… the dark purple, even if it was black, if these were all black, or that dark purple.

[37:09] You know, that would be better. Anybody else from DAB have any comments? We got Matthew here, I'm just trying to see what else is even here. you and Harriet. I don't have any further comment other than I do concur with a little more visual restraint on the canopy system. whichever one that is chosen to go forward, because I think kind of an arbitrary color scheme for illustration purposes is okay, but for tenants coming in with specific branding, and I don't know, I don't understand from the proposal specifically if these specific colors were… are being proposed for those specific locations, or if it's notional, but I would say I just concur with the general Recommendation that a little more restraint be shown with the color scheme.

[38:04] … Something that's either consistent or consistent with the… The building and surroundings, or consistent with the branding of the tenants. Yeah. Do you have a comment? Not really, I mean, I… I don't have a strong opinion about the awning versus the glazing, mainly because I think the nice thing about the awning… the sort of fabric will actually that it will provide shade in a way that the glass does not. But yeah, I agree with everyone else around. Maybe not quite so many bright colors. Yep, that's all I've got. Okay, I think then, … if I can try and summarize this Which is always the hardest part, but what I'm hearing is that, that the fabric awnings need… some study and need to be addressed. Some… some suggestions have been

[39:07] Either to have One uniform color of awning, or to provide the awning frames and have the fabric be provided by tenant. And then, or… … Or the third option being no awnings at all. And if the tenant wants awnings, then that would be their separate responsibility. I think the colored spandrel glass needs to be revisited, that potentially it just needs to be uniform, And… and left as an opportunity for, … Branding for the tenants in other areas. And then as on the record, to note that DAB was not all, in agreement, and that,

[40:01] And some members recommend revisiting the steel and glass. original… architecture of the awnings. Yeah, to honor the history and the nuanced detail of the existing glass honors. Okay, I think that's good. That was a good summary. Yeah. Kailani? You got your hand out? Oh, before we start the next item. Oh, you're that early hand-up, huh? Okay, I think… … if… if we are in agreement, I think we can move on to the next project. I really appreciate, PEH and the, city, coming in and presenting this to us, and… … Thanks.

[41:05] Thanks for the opportunity and the feedback. Yeah, thank you. Great. … Kalania, do you want to kick off the next project, or do you want me to do that? I do, but I just… I'm doing the time check that the board wanted Yes, yep. We're at. So, we're about, I'd say, 25 to 30 minutes over. So we'll need to pick up time, and if we want to look at what we've got scheduled out, or we want to, check in in, say, half an hour. Let's check in in a half hour, or if you… I'm just sort of… what might be helpful… Is to have, like, an overview of… I think what we're prepared to tell the board DAB members is that there's, you know, 10-plus criteria that we need to review for this next project.

[42:00] And so, we just need to have a strategy to be respectful of everyone's time, the applicant, city staff, ourselves, to move through it in an efficient manner. So, one thought would… one strategy is to actually have sort of a quick glance, or assuming that everyone maybe looked through their packet ahead of time, is prepared to sort of provide focus on topics that weren't more focus. So, you've seen where we've allocated time, Brendan and I, in our meeting yesterday, with the help of staff. And that, you know, we're already over 25 minutes, but if you sort of look at areas we've allocated 5 versus 20 versus 15, that gives you a sense of where we pre-prioritized. And so, maybe if you could keep that on one screen or in the back of your mind as we move through this, that it would give us a snowball's chance in hell to get through this agenda before 6. And then I would just add to that, after the presentation, the applicant's presentation of 10 minutes, we need to open back up for public comment. I think we may have some folks waiting to speak.

[43:01] Great. Great, and Rory, thanks for the hand-raise monitoring. Yeah, I just guessed. … Okay, I think we should open up to the presentation of the next project at 1128th Street, which is student housing. just adjacent to the… just east of the CU campus. Great, I'm Shannon Moeller, I'm the planning manager that's the case manager on this project, so I'll just give you a quick intro, and then I'll turn it over to the applicant team. So this is a redevelopment proposal for a mixed-use student housing development with some ground-level commercial space. As noted in the memo, this project is, the last of a stretch of projects in the residential High 3 zoning district. That is… runs along 28th Street, and that zoning district was created about 20 years ago to allow for redevelopment opportunities across from the University of Colorado.

[44:07] This project is being reviewed under the site review criteria. There are no area plans affecting this site. It was reviewed earlier this year and received planning board feedback as a concept plan. And at the time of that concept plan, City Council referred it to DAB for DAB's review and feedback, at this time. So that's why it's here tonight. So I'm happy to turn it over to our applicant team for their detailed presentation. I'm sorry, Shannon, would you remind me who needs to be promoted? Okay, I see Andre. Oh, sorry, and Danica.

[45:02] Yes, it looks like we also have Matt Post to be promoted in the… in the attendees. Is there anyone else? that we needed. Just myself, Matt Post, and Danik Powell. Perfect. I think you're all here. phrase. Sorry, Zoom… Zoom… Zoom delay. Okay, no worries. Okay, am I good to go? Perfect, yeah. My name is Andre Sahaki, and I'm the development manager, with, with the developer, LV Collective. With me today is, Danica Powell, and, Matt Post, who will be sharing his screen, getting the presentation ready And, we also have a model pulled up to go around. Without us today, JVA, engineers, an outside landscape architect.

[46:04] Matt, if you could go ahead and share a screen. Absolutely. Can everybody see my screen? Okay, great. So we'll dive right in. I know we want to be sensitive to time, so I'm Matt Post, Associate Principal at Oz Architecture, and thank you for your time this evening. This quick intent is to kind of give the overview, and context, as we were really focused on creating This human-scale experience, centered around sustainable principles. So… … the site context, as Shannon's already kind of pointed out, is kind of the culmination of these series of student housing projects across from campus that we're seeing this project as kind of the bookend, as it's an important corner for both Colorado and 28th Street. The project is of the similar density and scale as what we're seeing around, including some site images, just to kind of give some context. I expect most of you have been through the packet, so I'll keep this quick.

[47:12] But really what we're highlighting is the connectivity and the activation at the pedestrian scale, that would spend a primary focus in each of the steps that we've gone through. So… I recognize this is not a view that we'll ever get, as a pedestrian, but just to demonstrate the context of, the mass as it relates to the buildings adjacent to the south. … as we were going through developing the overall building mass and architecture in general, just paying quick attention to the zoning constraints, as well as looking to capitalize on the height modification opportunities to bring density to the site. So, ultimately defining that envelope. Looking to, maintain the density within the setbacks. Carving out a courtyard so we're activating the space, ultimately rejoining to define three individual masses in order to capitalize on the overall height and grade change that we're navigating from

[48:12] The high point at the southwest corner to the low point of the northeast corner. And then, utilizing that, 70% mass that we're able to, add to the upper levels. Shifting that to the north side, so really allowing for as much natural light to penetrate into the courtyards, that will be activated. So… … this is jumping to the site plan to just really demonstrate, sort of, the connectivity, and we've really focused on the pedestrian connections on the north along this multimodal path, which has connectivity to the RTD bus stop. We're joining in the B cycle, we've got Lime scooters that we're, utilizing, and then also the connectivity to the tunnel that accesses campus here to the southwest.

[49:04] will ultimately, be entering into the site as we look at the corner, which is a commercial component, into bova's. Which will be continued on to this project as it currently stands, on the existing property. And then what we see here is a public plaza that spills out off of Bovas. And we've looked to define, really, these, different open spaces around the property, with a real mindset of security, but at the same time, activation. So, this, West Courtyard is a private resident courtyard, but that there is an opportunity that we've capitalized on to make this a public connection between the north and south, so that there is activation and ferocity throughout the site. And there's also a visual connection to this courtyard on the north side. And so the main entrance on this top left corner is what we'll kind of focus on, as well as the entry on the bova side.

[50:02] So this kind of highlights those entry points on either corner, and then there's about 8 feet between the high point here on the right-hand side to the left at the lobby, and we've incorporated a number of comments, both from The city staff, as well as the planning board, as it looks to really define those elevation points so they are, at level with the current grade at both of those corners. This prominent corner is obviously a priority, as it relates to just the amount of traffic, and then also just the activation and the opportunity that we see to really create a special moment, here on the corner. So, what we'll do now is kind of just go through a series of renderings that kind of demonstrate the experience from a pedestrian scale, and then zoom out a bit to talk more about the architecture. So, at that, that was the main corner, and then as we shift down. We have the cafe entry, which is also a publicly accessible component, and then that visual connection to the private courtyard beyond.

[51:08] Overall, kind of strategy for the design is looking to take advantage of the tonality and textures to relate to the human scale and break up the building with a water line at the second level. As we begin to step down grade along… excuse me, I jumped back, but along, along Colorado. So you'll see, kind of, these planes that we're looking to define that really, capture the mass within, and so this is part of the design intent, is to have these, you know, elements that begin to float in front of the box. So that's kind of a theme that will kind of Show up in different iterations throughout the design. And then we're utilizing, kind of, these breaks to stitch the buildings together in a way that is thoughtful, but at the same time cohesive, as we look to define distinct textures and tones to break up the overall building lengths.

[52:08] And so as we head, farther east along Colorado, we'll see the kind of breaks in the building where that paseo that we're connecting north and south occurs, and then what that kind of inviting play allows us to bring people through the site, and you'll see those sky bridges that connect the buildings above. Along Colorado, we're seeing also this corner as a prime element that will be a welcoming entry point for the overall site, as it starts to relate to what's happening on either corner of the building. And again, kind of just traveling around, this will be less experienced from a pedestrian perspective, but will be experienced from the tenant that is to the east. And as you look at the overall south elevation, trying to look to define, really, individual experiences, so this, starting from left to right, bova's entry point, here we see below kind of a decorative, corner element. Their signage will be above, which will be planned later.

[53:09] That public plaza that we'll look over onto the private courtyard, and then, breaking up these distinct elements with ultimately entering, and we'll jump to that in a moment, entering the, the public Paseo that will have access through the site. So here's a view from that public baseo, and what that will potentially look like. As we head more towards the west, and we're situated just adjacent to that public plaza, begin to see the buildings accommodating the rain gardens that we'll need to incorporate to mitigate the stormwater runoff. And then, zooming out at the same essential location, you see those rain gardens, provide a buffer between that, public plaza that spills out from Bovas, and then looks down onto that private, courtyard.

[54:00] And a view closer up to that private courtyard, and sort of the opposite view of what you'd experience from that space. Then taking a step back, more across the street, seeing that bova's entry point with the awning that really defines that entry point, and then the experienced roof deck that we'll see above. So again, that entry point, the roof, the public plaza, and then kind of circling around the building. Located here is a bike entry for residents to store bikes, and we have a real focus on pulling that car out of the overall experience, we have an all-concealed, removed all-surface parking aside from the parallel parking along the street, all below grade, and then we have essentially one parking space for bikes per resident. And then zooming out, seeing that, you know, will ultimately be a spectacular roof deck with views of the Flatirons, and really an amenity for the residents.

[55:01] And this is, the west elevation, which we see as prominent, for sure, and the way we've looked to break up the building, is shown here, and really identify and prioritize those two entry points, on the north and south corners, specifically, and then still provide adequate Transparency and activation throughout the length facade, despite the change in grade from 8 feet from right to left, where we do have, a central point where we look to utilize some landscape to really bring life to what we're seeing on this elevation. And that really concludes our, kind of, overall high-level presentation, and we look forward to your feedback and comments. Great, thank you for that, presentation. … Do we want to open it up for public comment? Yes, we can do that now. …

[56:00] If you're joining us and don't have any comments about this project, now is your time to raise your hand. In Zoom. And you'll have 3 minutes to speak. Okay, I've got one hand raised so far. So we'll go ahead and start with Steve. Steve, I will, allow… you should be able to unmute, and we'll give you, 3-minute timer here. Hello, this is Steve Shoemaker, can you hear me? Yes, we can, Steve. So, I'm a homeowner at 2960 Pennsylvania. It backs the Colorado, onto the north side, or close to the north side of this project. … the, the concerns I have are, are with the north elevation of this building, and, and the, and the, the…

[57:02] the slab design, essentially, of that. When you look at the south elevation, you certainly see a building that's tolerable. You look to the north side, which is the side that I'll be looking at, it's, it's not desirable. Essentially, what will happen with the, With this project is that we'll be trading the mountain views that we receive for, And offering those to LV Collective for their building to, to have with their rooftop deck. … And I… and so it really boils down to a couple of issues with the design of the north elevation. And, and of course, then the height bonus that's, that's up for grabs, and then, well, I'm assuming it's up for grabs. Maybe, maybe it's already a foregone conclusion that the height bonus will be, will be approved, but, … I would, … I would offer that, the city charters, …

[58:07] edict to a design advisory board, and your recommendation that you provide to city council… As they're looking for your opinion of this project. that it may be looking at it a little differently than what LV Collective and Oz and Trestle is doing here. And that is that as a gateway to Boulder, this… and granted, there, you know, there's some other projects that have happened along 28th that are, Certainly in this same order of magnitude, their… their massing is very different, and their attempts at keeping slab design with scabbed on, … balconies to provide, you know, some level of interest that may make it look a little less like a big box. … the comparison to that is, is very different. It looks to me like design.

[59:06] and possibly through, collaboration with design advisory boards of the past, or… or just general concern for, for architecture in Boulder, that those projects made a valid attempt at breaking up the, the mass of an elevation like the north elevation. I… I don't see… I understand why it's needed. I mean, if you're looking for 150 units to be put onto that lot, then you certainly have to build up in height, you have to then not do setbacks at higher elevations, you have to get the number of apartments you're shooting for. The reality is, is that's not my concern. If that building is limited, as it should be, to only 3 stories, if there's setbacks off of Colorado that look much more like the south elevation along College Avenue. That's….

[60:00] That would be a much more appealing building, …. Steve, that's for 3 minutes. Am I done with my 3 minutes? Yes. Okay. Okay, thank you. Great. If there's anyone else that would like to speak to this item, please raise your hand. Okay, Chair, I don't see any others. Okay, great. Thanks, Amanda. Let's go ahead and open it up, for… for… well, first we need to go, … I guess we need to be a little strategic about this, because we do have…. Yeah. Several criteria that are, … Partially met, that we need to discuss, in order, preferably. Yeah, let's do that, that'd be great. So the first one is, site design criteria, open space. Staff has, specific concerns around, access.

[61:05] To this open space, particularly from… the, South. … So, it says that, you know, the design provides a variety of spaces, including courtyard to say, on other ground-level spaces, and an upper-level outdoor amenity deck space. It's unclear how the western courtyard is designed for accessible access to the south edge… at the south edge. Can you pull up, like, a… plan view, or a… Like, a site plan, maybe? Yeah, I think that landscape plan is, …. Yeah, that'd be good. is nice. Or do they… do you have a 3D model available? Yes. like a rendered environment, that might be helpful, too, because some of the grade change and some of what's happening at that southwest corner with the bike storage versus bovas.

[62:02] Is it a little tricky to understand and plan? Yeah, that's. Sure. Do you see my screen? Yes. Yep. Everyone's running in place. Yes. That's cool. So I guess the question was, specifically regarding the access to the Western Courtyard. And…. Orient, which… we're standing, which street. We're currently on Colorado. This is the corner, main entry corner. Oh, right, okay. And so, the… the Courtyard Beyond is a… is a, private courtyard that will be utilized by residents. And I think we'd represent it in a couple other renderings. Sorry to fly through walls. Oops, excuse me. … But essentially, what's demonstrated here as this stair access is an emergency egress point only to provide a secondary means of egress for the residents on the courtyard. So there'll be a gate, it's not publicly accessible.

[63:04] But this is an activated courtyard that we're defining as really looking to the security of the residence, essentially. This is… a spillout to the, the lobby space, and it's gonna be essentially viewable from both the public on the north and the south, but will be defined as a private space. There was a… there was a comment, in the staff… the staff comment was, it's unclear how the West Courtyard is designed and accessible at the south edge. I think it's important to note that there are two distinct programs occurring. If you look at it in site plan. Right now, we're in the West Courtyard. The idea is that that's a private and secure courtyard for use of the residents. Adjacent, to indoor functions, like perhaps have, like, outdoor group fitness activities, things like that programmed here. And then that raised area would have outdoor dining opportunity for the retail space.

[64:05] where I think, … Matt mentioned earlier, we are working with Bovis to bring them back into that space, and so having the opportunity for an outdoor dining area adjacent to College Avenue is what we were trying to do in that open space. So, can you flip all the way around 1… 180, so you're…. Yeah, you're on the…. North. Sorry. This is where you want to be? Just turn your head around so you're facing north, so you can see how it engages the street. And then go to the street to the south after that. Okay. So that's the private courtyard. Correct. If you just keep backing up all the way… Through the building. Okay. So I pop out on the street to the…. Yes. Right? So we're… yes, this is a private dining, and then we're out to the street here.

[65:02] But… but not private dining, it would be for. Oh, excuse me, public. I said, did I say private? Yes, public, bovas spill out dining. Right. Yeah, it's a retail patio. Correct. Cool. Yeah. And so then this other outdoor space, just while we're kind of looking at these for the group, so to the east here, then we have what you guys call the Paseo, which is sort of noted as publicly accessible as a pass through this building. And then has a small courtyard that's presumably private. Midway through. That's right, yeah. The idea here is to break up the block. There are no other opportunities, really, to connect somebody from College Avenue over to Colorado. But there is a multimodal path there if you wanted to cut through with your bike or get to that bus stop. There's really a lot of good access there, and so this Paseo is an opportunity for anybody in the neighborhood to maybe get off the bus, cut through our building, and not have to walk around the block.

[66:06] There is the matter of security, and I don't think it's all rendered in this view, but we do have private, balconies and courtyards, in this, on the right side of the screen here, that we would like to keep secure. So some, some kind of, barriers is shown in plan, it's just not showing up in the, in the fly-through. Got it, yeah. So my instinct on this, guys, is, we're encouraging the public on this Paseo to pass through the most private programs of the building, the actual residential units, which seems like where you don't want people moving by bedroom windows or, you know. closed access to residential units. And then we've got the one that interfaces with all of, potentially, the public retail spaces, but we're saying we don't want to bring anybody through there, that that's private and bookended by a public retail patio on the south. So I think that… I just wanted to make sure I understood that distinction, because you call it…

[67:02] the West Patio, and then there's the Paseo, and those are two distinct, whereas to me, the West Patio, as a Paseo, or a more public interfacing patio as a Paseo conceptually makes more sense, but I understand what you guys are trying to do by breaking up the block here. I do think this is going to be a security hazard, and as much as I appreciate breaking up the block. And if you want to do that visually and architecturally, that's fine. I'm looking at the site plan, you know, it's Google Earth and things, there's not a strong north-south connection here, and you're, like, I don't know, 40 feet, 60… 50 to… Something odd feat to just walk… on the edge of this property, so I just question, sort of, the invitation, given the vagrancy in this community, particularly around this area. I would be open to any type of, you know, way that this is handled. You know, if there are kind of hours where it's open during the day, and then we're able to potentially put some kind of gate where it's more access controlled, like during nighttime,

[68:11] Maybe that's… maybe that's a solution. …. We did look at it. Yeah. Can you, yeah, can you go to the site, to that landscape plan now that we got kind of a…. Visual. Visual of it, so that's… you had to fill it up. Sorry, do you see… Do you see the plan on mine? We're just seeing Lumion right now. Oh, got it. Apologies. Probably might take a second to… there we go. Yeah, I mean, my…. Yeah. I was gonna say, my thought, you know, I agree with Rory, if you zoom back out, so we can look at the whole thing. Thank you, girl. … you know, the… the Western… kind of courtyard… Nope. Outside it, so… Sorry.

[69:01] rolling. the western courtyard, yeah, it seems like, yeah, you have more public kind of uses there, you know, and even that, I think, super cool dining area, you know, where you have the stairs going down. I could… I could envision a lot of The residents, college students. Having friends come and hang out and stuff, and it might be quite annoying, actually, for them to have to, like, buzz them in, or… you know, have the security, and so I kind of think, well. why not flip it? Why not leave the Western Passage, Paseo. kind of usable. Now, you can't ride your bike through there, right? Because you got the stairs, but that's okay, because there's plenty of access on either side, right? And then the Paseo, maybe that is just gated, and it's private. … you know, and you don't need to… public never needs to go in there, because I, you know, I think the more you activate that space with, you know, people, again, friends and college students hanging out in that courtyard, I think

[70:07] will be great on the western side. … And in general, I don't have any problem with the… with the… amount of open space. I think you guys have done a great job of Sort of creating some really interesting spaces and some great opportunities for the kind of businesses, cafes, to, you know, be activated by these little courtyards. But yeah, I agree with Rory, maybe you're… maybe you're just kind of flipping it, you know, just… what's private and what's public. Was there… was there a reason you guys wanted that? courtyard into the west to be private? Is there… Access units right on grade or something, or…? Yeah, I'm happy to speak to a couple of those points. So from a security standpoint, for all the buildings we operate in our experience, it's, the best way is to keep, like, the front door, everybody coming in through a front door, making sure that that's fully transparent.

[71:08] All of the amenities in the building are located, really, In Building A. So having that outdoor area kind of adjacent to where we would put a gym and other interior functions, study functions, they bleed in and out a lot, and the kids really use the space at all hours, and so we're really seeing that being a good kind of energy with interior and exterior, like, amenity spaces. At some point, early in the project, when we first went in for the concept, we did have a series of ramps and tried to connect at that location. However, the way the grading works is the very northeast corner, so the top right is the lowest point, and then it climbs subtly along Colorado as you hit 28, And then it climbs pretty drastically as you climb, you know, southward on 28th Street, and so it's like, I think it's 5311, at the bottom end at 5303, and so we've really negotiated some of the floor heights here to make all the program work and meet grade.

[72:13] However, if there were to be an accessible, type of, Paseo in that location specifically, there would be you know, we could all do the math on how much ramping that would be, but the comment we got back specifically was, you have a myriad of ramps, you know, fix this. I'm, you know, paraphrasing, so pardon me. But the benefit, kind of, at a planning standpoint, is if we move that Paseo, kind of, over. Again, you're breaking the block to make the same point, but the grade is actually very similar. I think it's a foot or so different, so we're… it's far more, you know, level and straightforward. So that was just some…. Are you talking about the accessibility in terms of, like, ADA accessibility? That's because they wanted the public walk to be ADA accessible? Is that….

[73:00] That's right. I mean. But do we even… do you even need a Paseo? I guess, why are we encouraging the public to cut through, like, a student housing building? It's not like this is some super block. I actually… the fact that the bova's retail is above and creates, like, a natural distinction between this is where a retail patio is, and this is where all the kids are hanging out, and it's not inviting public, makes a lot of sense. And so I guess, I don't know if you're like, there's some sort of brownie points about saying the public can walk through this. Building, but that actually seems like…. I would just eliminate that component, and then we don't have to put it anywhere. Alright. We have two… we have two raised hands as well, so, Mark, I think you've had your hand raised for…. Yeah, just quickly… expressing a little sympathy for the applicant, because I think what they heard at planning board. Planning board has a history, and it's a… it's a valid history, of encouraging site permeability, especially in large blocks like this. And we… and I think, and this is a question for, staff.

[74:10] was… is… is a through-site permeability at Paseo that is now located on the east, actually required by the Transportation Connection Plan or some other guiding document? And I'm not… I'm not the authority on this, but I, I… I just… I question whether or not either in site review requirements, based on building size, or in the Transportation Connections Plan, if, in fact, a through… a public through, pathway Paseo is required. I had that same question, so maybe, … if… … Maybe somebody with staff would know the…. Dannon, do you want to speak to that?

[75:06] Clark. Was Shannon or Charles going to speak to that? It looked like Shannon's screen had frozen. I know. that. My internet connection is coming in and out. Yeah, you're correct, Mark. There's no, defined, like, connection in the Transportation Connections Plan in this location. Matt. If I may, I just wanted to call us back to the actual criteria we're talking about, because it doesn't really involve… the western Paseo, I think we're… we ventured into a matter of… kind of suggestion and… The material question at hand is, what is the accessible connection from the south patio to the inner private courtyard? And I would suggest that,

[76:00] That inner courtyard is accessible, it's made accessible by its connection on Colorado, it looks to me from the plan that there's a convenient stair From the retail patio down to the courtyard. I think if you're providing that kind of access to ambulatory folks, I could see where it generated the question, where's the accessible component of that connection? So my question for the applicant, is it absolutely necessary to have the stair go down there, I think, backing up to one of Rory's comments, is the height difference, the grade difference at that retail patio creates Kind of a natural separation of program that you might want to maintain, rather than having, kind of. open-ended stairway at the back of this retail patio space. So, it might be helpful just to clarify the intent of the stair, and then that may help address, like, do we need to address an accessible component for that as well.

[77:04] It looks like egress, dude. It looks like a second means of egress. Yeah. Is that code required? It's code required? Yeah, it's larger than the 750, and so we need to… be able to egress out of that space. It would be gated at the top of the stairs, so that… so one direction. So you would be egressing into a private courtyard with, like, …. You know, you'd be egressing out of it. Out of it, to the public. Yeah. to… All those dudes pumping iron on that friggin' lawn, when the fire bell rings, they're all gonna be running north and south, dude. Yeah, like that Bovis patio…. But that is helpful to understand, thank you for clarifying that, because that wasn't… I don't know if we talked about that, or that was immediately clear. I agree. The idea isn't to provide… Connection from the patio to… into the site, right?

[78:00] Correct. So, in that case. all of your means of egress do not have to be accessible. You have an accessible means of egress meeting the code requirement to Colorado. So I don't think this criteria would require a lot more from us Given that you are meeting the accessible component of this space. Am I not…. No, I agree with you. I don't think you want to connect these spaces. I think they've done a good job of breaking private and public program relative to this particular courtyard. Harriet, do you have a comment for… For this item. Yeah, I don't have an issue with the western courtyard. I agree with what Rory just said. And if that's what we're focusing on, I won't. Talk to anything else at the moment. And I was gonna just give my quick comments, and then we need to move on to the next one. I think, you know, if we're just focusing… just quickly focusing on, the Eastern.

[79:07] I think that, like, proportionally, and I think that we're gonna touch on this a little bit in a minute, it just is like this slot canyon. And, you know, it's a really tall portion of the building, and very narrow. And I wonder if it… if it is successful, and if… if not just sort of more dangerous. And I feel like that courtyard has a little less programming to it, And that, you know, it's sort of that unprogrammed, open space. can be slightly more dangerous as well. I don't know if there's some… if that's meant to be, like, with picnic tables for studying, or just bike parking, or sort of what the… intent is of that, to draw people in to make that space, safer, or to make it like that inner courtyard in Building B, where it becomes more secure. And then looking at the, western

[80:09] courtyard, … you know, I think we've talked about bovas a little bit, but we haven't really talked about… the cafe, and I know we'll be touching that a little bit later, … But if, you know, a portion of that It is intended to be private. You know, the top and bottom north and south ends of that private courtyard are intended to be public. I think that it… a little more programming needs to be, you know, in plan, needs to be studied as to how to get people into that cafe, which is slightly sunken, you have… it's the only wall that's kind of askewed, and so if somebody's walking east of down Colorado, it's really blocking, and actually Physically cutting off that access to that.

[81:01] Potential outdoor dining area, for the cafe. And, you know, if it's… if it's a matter of, like, wayfinding or… You know, I just think it would be… it would be interesting to look at how you can integrate the northern public part in a similar way that you've integrated the southern Bova's outdoor eating patio. Yeah, Brendan, I think you just did a good job of bridging us to the next allocation block, where we've got this sort of, you know, building siting, and the public realm interface beyond just the open space. And we allocated a bunch of time here that we've obviously just been blowing through time, guys, so, like, I guess be careful, but this is what Generally happens all the time, so… I feel like I'm talking to the wall here, but… Yeah, and so I think to hinge off of that, though, Brennan, and sort of start moving through these other sort of defined entries, and the building citing a relationship to the public realm, being consistent with the character established.

[82:05] these next three criteria, I tend to agree. I think, like, the courtyard, having these private, or these retail-driven dumbbells, north and south, that sort of buffer this privatized internal courtyard that's supported by the amenity spaces is great. Honestly, I think it's great. And I think you guys made the proportions work for how tall the building is. To meet the letter of the code, and there's some offset geometry you guys relied on, and so there's a lot of, sort of, creative solutions there. I think… My concern is how… like, nothing is addressing the west facade, and this is the front door to Boulder, and people just park at this stoplight and back up all the way to Denver every morning for, you know, 30 minutes to make it from here to Arapahoe. And you just stare at what have been a lot of, in my professional opinion, sad excuses for building facades that line from basically where the Best Western used to be moving forward, or moving north.

[83:02] And I know that CORE is coming in. We reviewed a project at the old Best Western site, so the south end of this, where Baseline is, and they did a spectacular… they did a really nice job, I thought, with breaking down facades for their student housing project, and making, sort of, visual interest. Particularly along 28th. So I guess I'm lamenting the entries being north and south for what, to me, is clearly a west-facing facade. And so you've got this awning where we don't even need shade facing north, there's nothing wrapping the west where the low sun shade's gonna be. I just… I'd like to hear what the other DAB members think about the retail entries relative to the west facade, and then just the general treatment of the west facade, given it's the most publicly, visibly accessible facade. So, I… I am, … excited to dig into this. We do need to give recommendations for each segment, so I… if we can just, quickly, before we jump into that conversation, and I think you set it up

[84:08] Perfectly, Rory. But I do, you know, just want to give a quick consensus on the recommendations. … Which is, you know, I think… Generally, we, … We see sort of a… … Maybe continue studying, like, a real distinction between, Public access and private access, and making that clear, for security purposes and also just for, programming of the space. And to meet, you know, ADA accessibility and egress requirements. But just to continue, looking at, sort of, this private versus public

[85:03] Programming and… and design for the courtyards in… in the… Outdoor space in, in general. Anybody have something to add to that? Well, I mean, I just… what I had to add to that was that, you know, if we're talking about the… those two routes, and the security issue of them. I mean, I would… I would say all… they could be closed at, whatever, 10 at night, you know, both… both passages, you know, you could have some security fence. I mean, these are night owls that are going to live in there, right? And, you know, there's going to be plenty of eyes on this, but I think keeping the public out of both of those at… some hour, makes sense to me. And then, in terms of the… traffic, pedestrian traffic flow, I mean, every… the students move from east to west. They're not moving north-south along here. They… they… they live east, and then they walk up

[86:10] west to go to campus, right? So that's how they do it. And so it makes sense to me that, Matt, that you guys have this on the two… on those streets. That's where you have the stuff happening, because students are going to be walking along there. And I'm not as concerned about the Western public You know, in cars, coming down 28th. I mean, yeah, okay, visually, you know, I'm sure we could ask you, like, why didn't you do an east-west passage, you know, I'm sure you have good answers. … But I… I really like… appreciate that you've got Things happening on… The north and south, because students are walking east and west. from the neighborhood. That's how they move. I think you've said exactly what our response is on that, so….

[87:00] Okay. And I think the page one of our presentation and Shannon's presentation shows that CU Master Plan, both connecting east and… the main campus. Colorado is slated for, you know, that multimodal path, tree canopy coverage, all those, you know, developments are happening right now. And College Avenue is also slated for, at least it's shown, it's indicated as a main corridor, between the two campuses as well, so we're seeing a lot of Foot traffic back and forth east-west, and that, that is, that is the reason our front doors are… Oriented in that way. I will say that Bova's is more so carved out of the corner, so it's facing the tunnel specifically. That was something that, the owners and operators of that, of Bovas really, preferred. So just having some, you know, high exposure there on that main corner.

[88:05] … Yeah, and then we have this, this, criteria up here, and it seems like the plan… so, I mean. Sandy Gibson is your landscape architect for outside LA, and I think she's Just, does such a good job with, integrating the hardscaping and the landscape areas and programming sort of that outdoor space, and then I know, like, the challenge of integrating that rain garden into the program. There's just a huge requirement for landscaping in that rain garden. And so I… I think that it's… I think that that is successful, and I think that it's… it is helping to really distinguish the public access from the private access, and I think… I think it's… I think it works.

[89:00] Yeah, kudos, we don't have a… big detention pond on the street, like, we've got many projects in Boulder that is total absurdity, so kudos to … Yeah, JVA and landscape. Awesome. Okay, let's move, quickly into the… the site… the site criteria of, the building siting and the public realm interface, that Rory's sort of set up. The conversation and discussion, particularly I think that needs to… and maybe as Dab, we can really just focus on the 28th Street in Colorado. corner, I think we've, we've covered sort of the south…. Yeah. corner. So, if we can kind of stick to the public interface of those. …. Of how the… the glazing, the storefront interacts with the sidewalk, and…

[90:02] The programming behind it, and as well as just pedestrian experience. Rory, do you want to start? Oh, my God. I think we've… we've sort of bled into… oh, for Harriet, please, go ahead. … I… one of the things that struck me with that corner was, I think someone touched on it briefly before, is… The… that's the corner that the public interact, but that's where the, like, private lobby is, so I was kind of curious as to why, sort of, again, the cafe wasn't put in the more… Public-facing, public interact. sort of space, because I think that's where people are gonna see it, they're gonna kind of interact with the site, whereas, like. Something like a lobby is… is something that people, you know, the residents are going to know where that is. They can enter from, sort of, you know, more off to the side, perhaps closer to where they're gonna… they've got a bike entrance from that side. Anyway, if they're putting their bikes in. And I agree with that whole, like, sit down, step down to the cafe makes it harder, you know, for people to… to see that it's their…

[91:10] But that was… that was probably my main comment, I think, on that one. I'm… I'm happy to…. I hear about the east… the east-west stuff you guys are talking about, and that, you know, I get that, the flow, and diagrammatically, there's an arrow that moves from left to right, and there's a tunnel, and that's all cool, and that's fine. I think that you're on the corners, so… to wrap an awning around that corner to the west side, and you can have engagement from both facades is something that you're set up to do successfully. It just… it feels odd that the primary street, which is absolutely US 36, A massive highway would be treated as a front For some, in my opinion. And you're close. I don't think it's very far. I mean, your program is set up at these corners, I think just a little more of a architectural nod around the corners to the west, from both the north and the south.

[92:06] would be… would benefit this project. Also, just by the time we start hearing Deb talk about, you know, the general matching along the west facade, I'd be curious if it wouldn't benefit for some pedestrian-scaled elements on the western facade, where there's a massive north-south sidewalk. Yeah, I mean, my comments would be, you know, yeah, you could… if you wrap that corner a little bit, you could probably bring some seating around. you know, to the west a little bit, but I still feel like you guys nailed it, because, I mean, if you go there any time of day, there's hundreds of students walking east-west, and so they're gonna walk by there, they're gonna use it. I'm not as concerned about 28th Street so much. I mean, but, you know, to the south, you guys have it stepped down, and I think it's pretty… … visible, and so, you know, again, yeah, maybe a couple of nods to the west.

[93:05] Some seating wrapping around there, wouldn't be very hard. I don't think you need an entry from the west, like a door or something. But you could just walk out there, bring your, you know, coffee, or whatever's happening, and… Have some tables. Matthew, do you have a…. Not specifically at the moment. I'm considering. … Yeah, I just… my recommendation would be, you know, similar to Harriet's. I think that … And also, the public comment, I think, was… is important to address. I think we have… … you know. Like, there seems to be a little bit of, …

[94:00] a lack of continuity as we rotate around the building, that the south elevation looks like a totally different project from the north elevation, that you have successful stepping back all the way from the rain gardens all the way up to the pool deck. And then the north elevation is really pretty… lack, considering what you have successfully going on on the South. And then the west elevation is really tricky, because it goes from level 2, you know, down, and it's half buried and half unburied, and so you have… the lobby that's half below grade, so I understand the challenges, I think, that are happening on that kind of level 1 versus Level 2 programming, and the site constraints and sloping. But I do think that there needs to be further study on the continuity of the design of the storefronts that are happening on the west.

[95:01] … and then how it wraps around, onto the north elevation. I don't think that that is, … it's quite working yet. And then as you keep going east, down Colorado, again, we're dealing with additional grade constraints, and now you have a buried, cafe, and I just… you know, Boulder is… has so much… unsuccessful retail space right now, that vacant retail space, I think, is… a really huge problem. I know that it's a really small space and a really small part of the… this very large program and, three-building project. But I do, want to see, sort of, that that cafe space is successful, And… and I agree. I mean, now hearing, from you, Andre, that, you know, you… that lobby space is going to be the primary secure

[96:08] into the project that you want most of the residents to go through that lobby space, I think is what I understand. And I think that that makes sense. And so, the plan that we have. I don't know if there's, like, a structural wall, bisecting that plant, or there… it's just… it just seems like the programming inside And then the con… like, the continuity of the programming inside, both on the cafe and the lobby, and then bringing that… the continuity of the design, around from the west to the north, I think, needs to further study. I think it's, worth mentioning that the, the cafe that's programmed for the building, is a cafe that is designed, and operated By LV.

[97:01] So we have partnered with an operator, really it started as a, award-winning barista here in Austin who has a couple of locations, and we've worked with them to then design and, really deploy these cafes to all of our buildings. They open up on day one. I think you could, probably, you've probably seen something similar at, like, you know, hospitality, certain hotels will have something like this. But it's publicly facing, it livens up. kind of the building on day one. It's everybody's caffeine source during study season. And I think something to note is when you're, when you're looking at the site, just because of that gray change along, Colorado. Really, the front door of the cafe, face is… is kind of… further east. And as you kind of step down there, it really does meet great at the front door. And then there's a series of steps, kind of on our property, to take you up to the, to the lobby space.

[98:05] So, you know, from a feasibility standpoint, we're comfortable with this as a location. It's slightly removed from the trafficked intersection and the noise that you may experience there. And then it gives us the opportunity to have a lot more outdoor seating that's kind of more, kind of, in a calmer type of area. So those are some of the reasons of… of locating that program there. Is there a chance that we could look at the, either a rendering shot or… the 3D… Model of that corner. Do you not see it? Sorry. Is it… Do you see that corner? Which…. Yeah, we're seeing key issues criteria, I'm not sure who's sharing. -Oh. …. They're…. Sorry, there's two tabs at the top that you can toggle between. Sorry, Brendan.

[99:04] Okay, I wasn't sure if I was not showing the right thing. I see. Yeah, so this, this, is… you… you come in directly from grade to this door. Which is… do you see this, I assume? Yeah. This is our cafe entry, and then, as Andre's outlining, you know, it allows for kind of that buffered seating, and then also spill out into further along the site. So where there is bike parking and just more activated, Protected space, essentially. So is there the primary entrance? Is here in Colorado. It faces Colorado. Okay. Yeah, there was, like, tables and… set up in front of it. It was… it's confusing as to what was primary and secondary access. The cafe entry door is here. Okay. And then can we go to the…. I feel like this cafe's part of the housing ecosystem, not necessarily Intended as a freestanding retail…

[100:07] component out on the street. The other thing is, I feel like I've… as long as I've lived in Boulder, I've never walked on either of these sidewalks. Because I'm not a student walking to see you, so… I think there's a component of this… street… Relationship to the street and public realm here that is very much insular to You know, local residents walking by, it's not like a sort of retail street where there's multiple chains of cafes to choose from, so… I'm not too discouraged by this location, and the fact that it kind of activates this corridor into the public housing courtyard has arguments in its favor as much as the cafe being located on the main corner at Colorado.

[101:02] I think what's a little… the… the corner at… the corner at Colorado facing 36, to me, is a little more just in terms of the… the aesthetic of a sort of prominent corner like that. It feels a little less… That feels like a little less of an entry… visible entry to the retail. it's kind of understated there, which I think could be fine, but… … I feel like there's just a little bit of a proportional and material shift that's strange to me, and I know grade changes between the cafe level and the corner, but I kind of wish… In some ways that either the two-story plinth carried on over the cafe. That… that cube in the corner, to me, is just a little bit aesthetically broken in an awkward way.

[102:07] … and I know that this isn't exactly… I'm kind of hijacking the conversation about the cafe, per se, but… My comment would be, is that there's just something proportionally with the step down of the two-story. Lobby down to the cafe that makes the cafe feel a bit diminished down there. Whereas maybe pulling up some of that material Would help, sort of, provide some more visibility to that component down there. I don't know if that's helpful, but…. Matt, are you saying, like, I mean, even just the blue… the blue awning, if it went… Like, because that's a double-height space there, right? And I must… I think that's what I'm seeing. Yes. If you pull the awning up, like, if you had a transom above those windows. And you pull it up 4 or 5 feet, You know what I mean? I understand we're looking at a two-story lobby at a higher grade, stepping down to a one-story retail at a lower grade with a residence above it. Right. But that break under the vertical row balconies.

[103:12] … With the double high window over the double-height space and the study mezzanine. That juncture right there, to me, it feels a little awkward and unfinished, and maybe the awnings are just slightly off. kilter, but it's that junction right there where I don't… I feel like the two spaces are very separated, where maybe they could have some presentation where they're a little more integrated together and… and read as more of a base pavilion around the… a podium around that. Section. Right. Yes, I think it would… I think it would be nice to… to study the, proportions, scale, and detailing, you know, on that whole base retail area.

[104:04] Right. I know where there's some great glass, awnings that are available. Sorry. So, as far as the three criteria that were in our packet here, we've got, sort of, the new buildings, to the extent practicable. positioned toward the street. I don't think any of us are taking any sort of issue with the proximity to any of the streets that this thing abuts. Is that a fair… Consensus. S… yes. as far as proximity. And then we've got defined entries, connect the building to the public realm. … And then there was some discussion… there's some criteria about one defined entry every 50 feet. I don't believe that… Yeah, buildings designed for residential may have fewer defined entries. So, 50 foot's kind of standard for more commercial retail stuff. We're not beholden, or they're not beholden to it here. It's interesting that it's in there just as a reference point of where you might expect entries. So, I think, you know, what I'm hearing is that there's some, …

[105:11] different opinions on the board as far as the relationship of the, retail entries relative to the public realm, and I think that's fine, that we just… we are not reaching consensus on that. Yeah. Excuse me. And then…. While laughing at this view, could I, just to do some due diligence, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Rory, I thought you might. Oh, you're good. You're good. But, … Due diligence with respect to the public comment we had about, the Nord facade. The north facade, since we're looking at it here pretty… in a detailed manner. maybe staff can contribute here. … I don't think anyone…

[106:00] I think the 5-story building height and the exemptions or mechanisms that allow that are reviewed by… Planning board and staff But just to do our due diligence, I would like to ask, just, what is the… Very high-level summary of how we allow 55 feet here, and what What contributions or, …. It's a cash in lieu, I asked this yesterday. It's a cash for… it's for affordable housing, yeah. Okay, so I just wanted to address the comment on the record here, could staff just remind us how we're… What mechanism we are looking at here to allow this building height. the community benefit. Yeah, that's correct. So projects are eligible to request height up to 55 feet through a few different options, one of which is providing community benefit that's a cash-in lieu that goes into affordable housing fees. And then, in order to be approved, there's certain criteria in the code, that we review.

[107:10] That buildings over the height up to 55 feet need to meet in the code. Do… do breaks. What is, what if…. What are the, yeah, what are the requirements for, step-backs that, you know, that… Isn't there a requirement at… You know, a certain height, there needs to be a… A plane change is set back in the building? It has to do with, like, length of facades and where the breaks happen. There's, like, a bunch of criteria. And some at-grade outdoor garden space, I think. If you scroll down, we gave it 5 minutes down there, so you jumped ahead, Matthew. Which is fine. No, you're good. I mean, I think… And I think, as far as Brendan, maybe just… when we get to a summary, it may be worth just trying to have a quick conversation about the remaining items, and then try to summarize them at the end, because we are bleeding between them, because they sort of relate to each other. Right.

[108:07] Well, and I… and I would like to… I mean, I think that we have… successfully covered the… these three that I would argue are kind of grouped together, … Yeah. You know, I think that… that… The conversation, you know, about Entry has been pretty dominant, on this conversation, on this first criteria. About the building site and public realm interface, that, you know, I think I think we agree that there, there needs to be… Some… a further study on the, … The… the prominence, or the, … how… how these retail spaces are entered. I think the entry is… not quite resolved.

[109:00] Well, and how it… meets that corner, because I think if that corner was treated a little bit… with a little bit more deference to the West, I think you could sort of satisfy that, I agree. And then, I said one last thing. I think I… we got… we can annotate, right? Look at that. Can I? I don't know if you can see that. It's white. I was gonna say, you know, one thing…. Matt, I don't know if you guys looked at this, but in just looking at the north elevation, that might…. help, … Mitigate some of the feeling of it being… massive isn't the right word, but I love the way, you know, your brick treatment and some of the details that you have in the brick, because it gives it a really… … human scale, which is really nice, and I'm wondering if you didn't look at Like, if you did… whoa, this is bad. If you went up another… row, it might, …

[110:03] It might start to make that feel more prominent, rather than the black… Dark masses behind. Just a thought, you know, to see what that might… might do, and just in looking at your… That north elevation, And I appreciate what you're doing, you know, with the brick, you're sort of giving it more of a lower scale with the brick, but it… maybe that would, … you know, feels top-heavy when I want it to be bottom-heavy. And I know, of course, I'm adding costs for you guys, adding brick and your… more brick, but…. Can we turn our head left so we get more of a comprehensive shot of this north elevation? Yeah, so we're gonna… we're gonna kind of be bleeding into building design, so we're supposed to be sort of touching on, the windows and sort of 60% transparency. for facades-facing street, …

[111:01] And then maybe 20% if it's minimum for, like, residential stuff, which I think the applicant stated that they're meeting all of those. metrics. 60% are commercial. The one exception, … Can you see Bluebeam? No, we're just seeing Lumion Pro. Alright, sorry, let me stop that then. So the one exception, that I wanted to. Oh, it's the west facade, huh, Matt? So, you know, ultimately, like we talked about, that navigating the 8-foot. Grade change, and so we've focused that glazing. and porosity on those corners, and I think we're at 54% and not 60. You know, we're seeing that as… You… and…

[112:01] in the spirit of compliance, but I guess I would want to understand your perceptions of it, and if that seems appropriate. I think this sort of ties into the earlier comment, at least coming from me, that… the western facade, I think, just needs a little bit more work and a little more deference to use Steven's word, particularly at the corners. I think in the middle, where the program starts to shift, and you sort of chew up a bunch of the grade change, I totally get what you did. And if we're looking at, you know, sharpening our pencil to a matter of a percent or two of glazing, I would tend to agree that the spirit is honored. The spirit of transparency on the street is to create activation of the public realm, and so there's visual porosity, there's engagement, whether they're opening or closed. I don't really care if you put dining sets out here or anything. I think I would be willing to sort of see more interest and engagement with this facade from some of the sort of pedestrian-scaled awning moments and things that start to engage and wrap these corners further, particularly the northwest one that we've been talking about, that sort of would do double duty as what the glazing is intended to do.

[113:06] And so if you're a couple points short, I don't see… it seems like a math problem less than a spirit problem. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful, thank you. Yeah, and helping just wrap the language and the design. From north to west, I think. is helpful. I think it's gonna help a lot, I really do. I think, for sure. And every other building to the south of this that is student housing, they all have prominent entries to the south, so as far as honoring the context, I think there's something to be said there. Even if you don't put a staircase that leads up to those, just some more visual cues. And you're doing it on the south, you're doing it on the right, right? Or the buses. Yeah, yeah, they're doing it on the right, for sure. It's already inserted. I don't think it's much, I think you're…. worse. I got my orange awnings in there, see, I added…. Very perfect, thank you.

[114:00] And then the other one is the building material. So we're talking about transparency, guys, and then we're also talking about materials, like cladding materials, you know, when they turn corners, are we getting enough? And I think math, Steph, Steven, that has to do with sort of your proportion of use of materials, Where can we… can we… I know we're… we, like, need to rush through this, and I appreciate that… that you're increasing speed, but I do, … I think our recommendation for the, … This building… this building design partially met criteria. … the visual sense of transparency and connection. Our recommendation is that a further study of Wrapping some of the elements On the north design, onto the west. … to bring… Just more detailing and design onto that west face. Yeah.

[115:00] But I feel like the materials one plays into this, because we could, you know, if more transparency is a part of someone's opinion about, or feeling about building material usage, but we're just sort of also asked to look at cladding materials and as they turn corners and offsets and building blocks. Yeah, and I think you've done a great job. I mean, personally, I think you've done a great job with that, and… I don't know what… if there was a feeling that it wasn't satisfying that condition, but… Like I said before, I would just look at bringing the brick up. Maybe not on this corner building on the right, but the buildings to the left. You know, you go up to that third level, and just see what that…. How that changes the…. Because you've got, kind of, like. 2 thirds, one-third on the bottom, and maybe it should be two-thirds on the bottom and one-third of the black on the top. But that's getting into, like, … Making suggestions, but….

[116:04] So, it… the staff comment was that, some of the… some of the proportions are… Particularly in brick coursing and banding, our, the transitions are clear and successful, but, … some detailing is not clearly used to create a clean transition, and some materials wrap, while in other locations, materials do not appear to wrap to the inner corner. I think that that's, like, again, that… that study of the… of the continuity of, Of bringing the design of the different faces onto the, … adjoining faces. I think, you know, if you're looking at this view right now, is the brick stopping right at the edge of the balconies is, … on… on… in one area, it does continue. The brick does continue into the balcony, but above the ca… above the lobby, but above the cafe, the brick just…

[117:02] Kind of stops and…. Yeah. Continue on that? Totally. there's just… There are just a few instances where… where it needs to have a cleaner and more consistent transition. But that's a tricky one, because right there, if you… because I know what you guys are… You're doing it, like, formally and compositionally, you have these brick Rectangles, right, that are kind of moving, and if you suddenly wrap that corner inside with brick, it's gonna shut the movement down. And I appreciate and really enjoy on this building that this brick is not static. Even though it's kind of funny that, you know, thinking of brick moving, but there's a lot of movement in this building, which I think is a plus. So, right there, I think it would be… I mean, I think if you, you know, suddenly clicked on that and turned it into brick, we would be like, let's leave it the way you had it. But, ….

[118:00] Oh, and I do see… so that, that 16-inch brick return, it looks like there… is there a distinct… Plane change that… Where that guy, the guy in blue is standing on the balcony. Yeah, it looks like it. …. Like, the brick runs proud. Yes. So if that… if that satisfies it, it's just… it's tricky where it ends, kind of mid-balcony rail. … It just might need to be studied. I see where staff made this, made this comment. I mean, I think that there's… A really successful variety in brick coloring, and detailing, and coursing, and… You know, throughout the project to make this Three-building project look. more to scale, and I think that that is successful, you know. But I… but I do agree that it needs the, like, overall massing of it and the proportions of the…

[119:01] Having it kind of split, like, the banding beat of the brick to the, panel above is… is really kind of 50-50 above the… cafe, like you were saying, Steven, that some… somehow that proportion's not sitting… 100% right. Like, it looks more, institutional when you have that… the proportions. Yeah, I mean, and it's more to the left, I think, you know, if you scroll over. Yeah, it's 3 over 2 on the left. It's 2 over 2, and then you get the, you know, and then it turns to 3 over 2. I tend to agree, I think it adds cost, and so I appreciate that they have used as much brick as they even have. Sure. Given its location, not on, you know, Pearl Street or whatever, but, yeah, I mean, generally, you would want to float a penthouse proportion above a strong edifice, base of brick. So, you know, if cost was aside, I would assume you'd float this thing all the way up and have one story, maybe two. So you have 2 over 3 or 1 over 4, as far as giving it, like, a nice proportion for a penthouse, but I appreciate

[120:10] Given, probably, the budget targets, that they've still, at a pedestrian scale, where the building is closest to the sidewalk. They've still used at least 2 stories of brick throughout, which is… is pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's gay. I know it's not a prominent corner, but can we just have a quick look at the northeast corner? Because I think in the packet that has a weird… well, sorry, it has a sort of step change thing. that I don't know if we saw anywhere else, and so when I saw it, it kind of stood out. To me, it's been a little odd. Yeah, this sort of step kind of cutout there. I think everywhere else, a lot of the transitions have been, like, a lot more, like, solid and defined, and so this cutout, I was just like, this just… it didn't really match everywhere else, and everything else everyone said around the brick, I think you've done a really good job. This corner was just a bit odd to me.

[121:12] Yeah, and here, I mean. Latter and less… a little less dynamic. For example, like, there, if you were to… You know, maybe that's a good compromise, you know, if you brought… because you have a 3 there, you know, if you just did that, right? And not… you know, maybe you're trying to overplay your… you know, there's too much going on in that corner, you don't need it. Maybe it's just 3 there, and this… and it's just on the left, and then it steps down, the brick kind of steps down and steps back up. That might… maybe that'll, like, anchor that corner a little bit. Hmm. …. I think just a little more consistency. I think you guys pointed out, everywhere else, the stone is treated like a mass, and if they erode it at a corner intentionally for that balcony move or something, it's still very legible. Here, the legibility of it being a mass of brick has been completely lost. So, yeah, I think either a three-story band that wraps the corner, or the two-story band that wraps the corner.

[122:04] Yeah. But that's a good point, Harriet. This is a very, sort of. Pretty, pretty big departure from how brick is treated elsewhere on the building. I mean, I think that that… this goes back to that, question about the requirements for step back. We have, like. this facade in particular, and this view, it is so flat. Like, there's… the parapet is flat, and… You know, aside from slight undulation, when you wrap a little farther west and south on this corner, there's some balcony movement, but otherwise, it's just… … it's… it's very flat and institutional, and I think I think corners need to be… I think they have importance, especially on it, you know… it's not an inner building B corner, it's a… it's the Building C, you know.

[123:02] More prominent corner that, when you approach the site, needs to have… it needs to have more movement and needs to have, … more… I think more setback, or some… some type of… plain… relief. Yeah. Brendan, I… you… we say we have a huge quorum, right? I have a school function I have to go… I have to attend. So I gotta bow out, but, I… personally, I think this is a great project. It's gonna be… a great addition to this area. The only thing I'd… my last comment, I saw you guys had some vertical railings somewhere. I don't know if that was just a… rendered thing or something. You had some mesh, and then you had some vertical. It's a horizontal building, I would just do horizontal railings. You know, don't do any vertical. You don't need them, but that's my last two cents.

[124:01] Sorry, I gotta bow out. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so I think if we're just gonna summarize this, the brick in particular, and sort of overall massing and materiality, I would say that, that… that the overall, massing and proportions needs to be, kept in mind, you know, creating, like, a, Rory was saying, an edifice, 2 over 3, with, you know, strong. Penthouse above a solid base or a strong edifice. I think it, is encouraged throughout all three of these buildings and all… all faces of them. You know, continuing to study the… the transition of materials, And encouraging these materials to end on inside corners is part of the design criteria for the city.

[125:05] And then I think further study of that northeast elevation… It should be encouraged. Okay. So, … let's move on to, modifications. So, now we're moving on to building form and massing on the, The… all building facades exceeding 120 feet in length. … If we can move on to that conversation, and I can get to it in the… what the staff comments were, if that's helpful. Yeah, to appear as at least two different buildings. Can we have the 3D again, I think? This north facade we've looked at, and the south facade, they have the paseos and the physical separation that create, you know, the distinction to look like two… at least two, or in this case, three buildings.

[126:00] How long, just out of curiosity for sense of scale, how long is that middle building from Corner to corner. Oof. Sorry, just one second. I know I have it here. Just a second. I just did a quick takeoff, Matt, it's like 170 feet. Yeah, 179'6 is what I have, …. And so bringing the, like, standard facade through for part of the building, that being designed to break up that length, rather than having the white the whole way, is that what the intent is?

[127:09] Correct. It's the stitching between here, essentially defining two distinct…. treatments. Yeah, I think that's sort of the spirit. So, sorry, what the… that was… how many feet was that? It's… it's 179…. Got it. P. And then that… and then that stairwell is somewhere… Or that balcony rail that changes the materials there, that's roughly…. Yeah, so that's… I can grab your measurement, … Nice. I'm just curious, again, not to, like, hey, you need to move that 3 inches. I just want to understand, as we orbit around this building, like, a sense of scale, particularly on the west facade. Right.

[128:07] And I think, you know, the material change is… Fine, and I guess we do have a plane change with the balconies, and the. Yeah. Definitely a good rhythm, but… I just… I… I don't want to harp on this uniform parapet in this very flat northern facade. I just… I'm not sure it's… it's working. So that's the 120 to answer your previous question, and then…. Cool. Okay. Great. You know, we are looking at stepping back at that stitch specifically, and then we have an expression, that does protrude as a unique condition to each of these elements here. So, the goal is to define that experience that you do experience From a pedestrian scale, where you would actually see it, as opposed to the straight-on elevation, as more articulated.

[129:00] If that makes sense. Matt, when you say you're… planning to step back. Is that what's already shown, or are you planning to set the top bit back further than what's currently shown? what's shown is what's intended, and what I'm saying is, in this location here, you know, the change in the break of the building is demonstrating More from a perspective than from an elevation, you see those breaks in the building, if that makes sense. Hmm. Is there any criteria that… I don't think we're up against some, like, the additional… it's not like the additional story that needs to step back when we're in a zone that has The extra floor bonus that they try to stuff the third floor in, right? So, I guess I'm just curious. That's unique about the Zone District is it does Require a 30% reduction on the top floor. So, it does ask for that, I think, on the fourth and fifth floor. Charles, maybe you're jumping in.

[130:03] So, we focused that on the other, you know, the south side to capture views and create that open space and good solar, you know, create good solar access for the open space that was down below, because it's all south-facing, and so we could bring the sun into it. So, we did transfer some of that, you know. up to the north. So if there's design suggestions on how to kind of hold this height on this side, but, … lessen its impact, because I think it was a tricky thing to remove that floor area from the fourth and fifth floor by code. Yeah, can we orbit a little bit more God's eye view and sort of see that? Because I hear what you're saying, that whole amenity deck with the roof pool and everything is where we've sort of scraped a few floors from a percentage perspective. And trying to get the sun down into the lower spaces, so that they were south-facing, so there was a lot of thought of pushing that, and so we can't add more to the… I mean, we could transfer it, but then that would have other impacts to the usability of the open space at the ground plane.

[131:11] I just wonder if there's a way, like those… those… the fourth and fifth floor, where you kind of have the fingers in Building B, and then you have a wing on Building C, you know, not touching over the pool, but if there's a way that we could distribute some of that 40%, Decreased floor space area. You know, by pulling those… if you pull those out a little bit, and you can kind of distribute that a little bit to the north, if that's… an option. And I do understand that Southern… the solar access into that very deep, Building B courtyard is important. I just wonder if there's a way to distribute some of that, floor plan to create a setback on the north. You're meaning just, like. I don't know, like, 3 feet, just everything kind of just be moving enough to create that sort of, like, difference, and that might maybe address what that neighbor to the north was feeling about that being, like.

[132:07] Right up there against the…. The wall…. Laundry. Yeah. But I don't… I don't know if the benefit would outweigh the cost of doing that, you know, and that step in the facade, and all of those other bits and pieces, and membrane. Yeah, there's structural logic, it looks like there's staircore logic, there's, you know, these bridges and the corridors, it's… I was trying to figure out if it's as easy as just taking the upper two tiers of the cake and sliding them over, but… I… what you've done here on the South. is… is really nice. So I guess the… the sentiment is just, boy, I wish the North could benefit from a little bit of this technique and strategy. … I don't know how to achieve that, though, without totally blowing up this plan.

[133:02] So as far as… There's 120 feet in length. being broken down. So, specific to that, we feel like they've broken down, you know, the building is reading as at least two distinct buildings, or in this case, three or four. We don't have, sort of. the appearance of a building more than 120 feet due to some of their different strategies with Paseo, with physical breaks, with balconies or material changes. Is there… I kind of wanted to look at the west facade for this particular criteria, and then there's the height issue. And it seems like the height issue is really just a north facade concern. Yeah, I feel like the West facade breaks. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot happening now. Yeah, I mean, can our recommendation be that some of the strategies that were used on the south and west facade

[134:05] Be implemented on the north and east? to achieve. A more… more dynamic, Bisson. Yeah, the massing would benefit on the north and east from some vertical stepping as it has on the south and west. I think that's a fair… Note to include. … Let's see…. And again, that helps with bringing up that continuity Of, design elements around, so, you know, all sides of the building. Rory, do you want to introduce the next one?

[135:02] Yeah, I think we're just… we're basically at the height bonus, which I think… we've already… well, there's some additional requirements for the high bonus, beyond just the cash in lieu. That have to do with… Landscaping and, like, surface, or grade accessible… Let's see… If the project's greater than 1 acre, an inviting grade-level outdoor garden or landscape courtyard provided, they want to consider… the following are considered elements to be successful in such a space. The width of the space is no less than the height of the building walls. You guys had some diagrams, Matt, it looked like. That, indicated that you were achieving this. As far as, you know, the proportion of the wall height adjacent to that. Private amenity courtyard. The space has southern exposure and sunlight. I think you guys have done a spectacular job of doing that, and I think, Danica, what you just sort of illustrated and drew attention to, it doesn't go unnoticed. I mean, that's…

[136:04] it's a really nice feature to be bringing in direct solar access to all the fingers and deep into these courtyards. I think we're just looking for a little bit of give on the north, if it can be… Strategically worked into the plan. The hard service areas are paved with unit pavers, such as brick quarry tiles or porous pavers. were put in place. Yeah, I think you guys have a whole Artscape plan, it looks like. With, with interest. … and then amenities with seating, tables, grills, planting, etc. Space is visible from an adjoining public sidewalk, I think. That's all clear with sort of these Paseo concepts, and at least one tree is planted per 500 square feet. So I guess this is all sort of to support a height bonus, which… I guess, is anybody at DAB… have any concerns about… I mean, they've qualified for the hype bonus. It appears.

[137:01] Yeah, I mean, I think that they for sure, meet the criteria on … The south and the west elevations. Yep. … Any, any other discussion about height bonus? Okay, so… City Council Planning Board or City Manager Referral… I think we didn't allocate any of that. So, I think if we want to try to burn through a summary, Brendan. Unless you feel like you've… been keeping up with it. I know you've been trying to, but we've been bridging some of these topics. … Yeah, I mean, I think that we were… we've clumped together a bunch of these into one suggestion, and then I think … Hopefully, we've been giving… giving the, summaries as we go for the… for the more distinct. requirements, you know, of course, all of our recommendations are going to be officially issued as… in our meeting minutes, but I… I would like to ask, you know,

[138:13] The presenting team, if… if they have any questions about, any of the directions or any of the suggestions that we've… Made, and if there's something, recommendations that are not clear. You will receive them in writing, just FYI. I guess, one thing I wanted to ask about was the returns. Specifically, I'm gonna jump to a different diagram. And it seemed like there was some consensus that the detail that we had strategized on, represented here, was an acceptable you know, detailed strategy, and I guess it's a question of whether that return in your summary, Brendan, was kind of

[139:01] in contradiction to that, so I just wanted to clarify. I mean, I think my summary wasn't… isn't necessarily specific to that… to that one corner, I just think that it… and… and our recommendations are not… binding. I think it's just… we're… it's more of a conversation of continuing To think about the… the design intent of the… of the materials transitioning on inside corners. For the majority of the material transitions. I mean, I think if it happens… Here, … you know, I think, like, when you zoom up close to it, I think it's probably fine. I just wonder at the, … You know, with the… the top of that brick, or whatever, if you have, like, a sold… the soldier coursing that's happening at the sill, I guess? If that needs just some looking at a little bit closer and how it interacts with the

[140:03] it meeting kind of the midway of the… of the balcony rail, I think is just… you know, if we're not looking at each specific material transition scenario, I think we just need to keep in mind that, that, per Boulder Design Guidelines, we need to transition our materials on inside corners. That's kind of the point of it. Brendan, if I… Thank you. If I'm, … May, just cause I… I… I… and this is just, … Somewhat for my own interpretation, but they're creating… they're using the masonry in that situation as a sort of… material with a thickness. I think, historically. the directive about changing materials at a corner, addresses that sort of two-dimensional change of material right at a corner, whereas I think this fully meets the intent, because you're creating another series of corners to create a thickness to the material. It's being used like a masonry screen.

[141:06] And I just think, at a practical level, it… some places it's used as a masonry screen, some places it's used differently, which creates a sort of inconsist… feeling of inconsistency, but I think, … When you do provide a thickness with a material and it happens to create its own terminating corner, that feels acceptable and within the spirit of the guidelines. Yeah, I think that is the intent. I think that's why you specifically call out a 16-inch brick return there. Yeah, that to me isn't… is no longer a corner of a building. It creates a sort of material thickness that then is no longer just a two planes meeting at the corner of a building. I agree. I mean, I think, you know. I think that that works, like, on a detail level here, perhaps, but I do want to keep in mind that

[142:06] Maybe on, like, that northeast corner that… that… That… you know, a couple of inches of great… of plain change between materials, it's just not enough. That's a…. Different conditions. There's a variety of conditions, yeah. Thank you, I think that's very clear. Great, so that's our… our summary gets captured in… in a meeting minute format for you guys, so you'll have our thoughts organized. And, you know, just to remind you, we are advisory in nature, so some of this is just fodder for discussion, and… And to try to be thoughtful moving forward as you continue to move through your design process. But with a recommendation from Planning Board, you know, they're going to want to review our meeting minutes and use that when… as you move through their process. So that's sort of how this all ties up.

[143:04] Yeah, and I think as a whole, it's, it's going to be a successful project. I think we just really need… more student housing, of course, and as a board, we've reviewed several student housing projects now, and I think that this one Integrates the, pedestrian better than a lot that we've seen, and… Those prominent corners are, I think, are successful. They just, you know, we always can push design a little bit further from our team. Yeah, definitely better than what's there now, guys. Thank you. We appreciate your time. I just also wanted to note, like, this is… this is, the first project I think I've worked on with the new site review criteria that was adopted in 2024, so I think you're seeing some new criteria, and we're all trying to figure out how to implement, especially the building length and the

[144:01] Open space requirement, so we appreciate you kind of working through that with us, because This, this is one of, … you know, even though we started working on this a year ago, it's… it's… we're under the new criteria, so, appreciate your muddling through that with us. Thank you. For sure. Yeah, and I think you've successfully addressed, you know, the previous, Planning Board comments of bringing, units, Better into grade, and the… integrating the… marine gardens, and, I, I think it's… I think it's… I'm working, and I think you guys are definitely moving in a good direction. Thank you. Alright, dear. I think we can let you guys…. Appreciate it. fun. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, only a half hour overrun. Nicely done, folks. I mean, we got through a lot.

[145:01] I feel like that's pretty good. Yeah. I think we underestimated the awnings, on the first proposal. I didn't realize that, you know, how much time that would take, so…. Yeah, and I think, you know, Todd was always a time-keeping master, and so I'm working on it, but…. No, I think you're doing great. You're balancing the whole deal. I do not envy the chair position. … Yeah, but I… I… that was a… that definitely was not a 5-minute, 10-minute discussion for the project, so… but I think, I think, hopefully, we can satisfy… With enough… enough comments to… to… Have information on each of the, partially satisfied, elements, but, … We'll have to break that out in our… in our… in my version of the meeting minutes, and if you guys have

[146:02] Suggestions that would be. helpful. I'm wondering if you should compile them, like, group them, how they were grouped? And then the summary, instead of… trying to break them out for each one is just group the three that were about public realm and group that recommendation, then group the ones on material and kind of facade design together. That might make the minutes more cohesive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely, definitely agree with that. Okay. I'm gonna go that route, Amelia, instead of trying to, like, parse everything out to specific ones, because they… there's a lot of crossover. Apologies, my Zoom needed to update. Tossed me off, so…. I love that excuse. I've been using that excuse every, every time. Yeah, …. So, maybe we can, … Do we want. We're gonna do a camera. the summary together? That might be… …

[147:02] Helpful, or we're just so far over, we…. I think we probably… well… we're… we still have a quorum. So, maybe we could go over… what we have? just re-review it for the… those three areas would be, I think. Helpful, especially since this is, … Amelia, this one's kind of con… this was a pretty complicated one. …. Yeah. Okay, so for the, …. Do you… is it helpful for me to throw up the criteria slides? Yeah, that would be…. That'd be great. So for the site design criteria, I think we had, … maybe a longer-than-necessary conversation about that, but I thought it was a good way to kind of introduce the, flow through that. But our recommendations were, … You know, that it was… The question was, …

[148:07] The hardscape areas and the green space for gathering, and how that's creating the public space. And I think that the conversation was not necessarily that, but I do think it brought up some, interesting points that I would like to keep in our meeting minutes, which is the, security issues and the public versus private access, And the, site constraints, and… … that… let's see, I have the, … And the pedestrian flow is not east-west, it's… I don't know… yeah, this summary is hard, because we're just sort of saying that it's… it's kind of working. No? Yeah, no, I agree. I think our… I think by the time we talk through it all, we reach consensus that the distinction between

[149:06] Retail and private open space was achieved successfully. Yep. And that the safety concerns were 100%, we need to include the not… like, I just don't understand why we're encouraging people to walk through these student housing buildings. But as far as the consensus, I think we all sort of touched on security being an important component to the open spaces. And that… and I also think that the, … The landscape and hardscape design Encourages that distinction and is successful. Yes. The accessibility we did not take issue with. So, like, trying to link these things with the ramp or whatever, nobody took issue with. with accessibility. And I… yeah, I mean, and I appreciated the, feedback from, the LV Collective Andre. …

[150:10] that, you know, the cafe is more proprietary. It's kind of, like, part of their program, and… it seems like they kind of have, except for Bova's, which is not theirs, they sort of have a good handle on, on what they want good access to, and what programming works, and what CAFE works. And then for the next… 3…. Just a reminder in Zoom, there's a… there's, like, two tabs. If you're not seeing my screen, you have to go to the other tab. Sorry. Yeah, I…. It's like a new thing, I think, I don't know. Yeah. … Okay, our recommendations were, … A continuation studying the proportions and the public interface along the sidewalks, studying the wrap and scale of glazing, and then working out the disconnect between the cafe and the lobby.

[151:14] Want to wordsmith that, or add to that, but…. I think that's pretty good. Should I say, like, the wrapping a scale of glaze… of, of awnings on… on glazing? Yeah, I think I… maybe just, like… fenestration. Features, yeah. Yeah, architectural features and fenestration. Man, there's so much housing coming online right now. It's crazy. … Let's see, working out this… okay. And then, Matthew, I was trying to conclude your comment about the… The disconnect between the… … The cafe proportions and the entry proportions.

[152:07] …. Yeah, that was one of the… I feel like most visible and sort of least… … successfully transition… I think it has a lot to do with the grade, the kind of awkward grade change, but that feels like it deserves more attention, because it is a primary facade. It just seemed a little bit unresolved, leading to some lack of visibility to the cafe, and… Residential insurance. Hmm. And I… I think building design can kind of wrap into those three as well, because it was talking about the amount of glazing. I don't think anybody took any issue with the amount of glazing, but we were… we sort of used Some of that wrapping of character from north to west in that bullet point, so we could group that.

[153:02] Yeah, and that was the same recommendation, so…. And then the building materials… That was the… or do you want to just read what you have? You probably have that one pretty dialed, because it was pretty… It applied to the whole building, generally, that we wanted them to look at. Yeah, I mean, I think it needs some wordsmithing, but, … I was… we were looking at, you know, brick transitions, continuing to study the brick transitions, massing and overall proportions, suggested, penthouse above strong edifice. 2 over 3, encourage materials transitioning at inside corners, and study the northeast, prominent corner. And then… I guess we could add to that. … Well, that's not really… that's more massing, not materials. I was going to say this step back for, …

[154:01] The 40% floor plan area reduction, but that doesn't apply here. Anything to add to that, or…? Change the wording. I think that's pretty good. I… yeah, I think that's pretty good. It covers all the talking points. It would be nice if they made that more of a 2 over 4, or whatever, 2 over 3. But that's a lot of brick. I can't believe they're putting that much brick on a student housing building already. Yeah, it's nice. I mean. It's pretty nice. Yeah. Yeah. … Okay, the next one is the, building form and massing. Our recommendation is to distribute some of the south, step back, to the north. Massing would benefit, From strategies and stepbacks used on the west and south, implemented onto the north and east facades of Massing.

[155:00] Yes, that's, I think… That one ladder hits hard. I like that. … And then the height bonus requirements, … I mean, I think that we've touched on it on the other comments, but we feel like it meets… meets the criteria and the requirements on the south and the west, … And maybe could use further study on the east, and…. Yeah, I think that sort of reiterates, you got the extra height, but let's just maybe not shear it on the north facade there. Yeah, I mean, it's…. It's gonna be tricky, though, with their circulation and that courtyard that goes down, they're gonna, like, overhang, like, a unit or… I don't know what they're gonna do, it'll be interesting to see. It's just a wide. It was interesting on, Building C, upper floor of Building C, which was, I think, the most east, correct? Yeah. that whole… the… it's a C-shaped circulation at that building.

[156:01] Yeah. On the south, they pulled back a bunch of massing, but they still have a single-loaded corridor. So that's, like, a place right there where they could flip units From the north, and do a double-loaded corridor on the south, and not affect any of the shadow. …. Yeah, totally. What? Oh, yeah, shit, totally. And same thing with units 2.1 and 2. The eastern two units on the B building could flip down the page. That's a really good point. Yeah, I mean, so even if they just took out, like, a couple units from the north side, and had a section of a missing tooth or something there, that would provide something, but…. Well, we'll let them figure that out, but I like that it's showing up. NR. Pretty strongly in our, summary. I mean, I think it contradicts a little bit when I said that That Paseo, I think is the wrong term for that.

[157:02] that they have in that, and I, and then additional programming on that Paseo courtyard, Building C, where they have that kind of wraparound. I mean, we're… we're decreasing this… axis of the sun. Into that courtyard, but, …. A little bit, but that weird unit is sort of… unit 5.6, or whatever, the one that… the large unit that is just south of that courtyard comes all the way up to the upper level. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not. Yeah, I think it's okay. … Yeah, so I'll just say make buildings, shift. shift the massing on the upper floors of Building C South. Yeah, don't spend all your money in one place. Yeah. … Right, and that's…. Alright. And then, do we have to have a comment for the City Council, Planning Board, City Manager referral? No.

[158:03] I think if it wasn't brought up during the meeting. Adding it now when… since the applicant is not here, and that portion closed. Yeah. If it's any different than… I know you said, though… She said, Kalani, at the end, like, the planning board, you know, the relative to buried grade and units and things, it seemed like they had done an adequate job. Okay, yeah, and I feel like you talked a bit about that during the first portion on the public realm. Matthew, your comments might read towards that, so you could say for that last one that you're reiterating the public realm comments again that were spoken about of that corner. And you, you would address that. Without going into it again right now. Yep. I feel like we could… we can pull from the conversation That they were present for. Yeah. Create a response for this. Yeah. And then is a calendar check even a thing anymore, or are we just… I feel like we just….

[159:02] Why? To hear that there's a meeting. Oh no, we lost Kalani again. No. Okay. It's a Zoom… it's a Zoom update. Well… hope there she is, she's back. Can you… oh, man, I was sorry. Maybe turn your video off. Yes, it is, because I wanted to… oh, okay. Maybe. Can do that. Alright, I don't know if that's better. … Yeah, for the calendar check, I just wanted to make sure, I think that there's… There is a… we got an application for this next month, so we should have another project. In, September, and then I believe you also have the coffee… appreciation in September, so just kind of reminder for folks. Right, because Todd's out. Do you think I will receive my historic boulder framed picture at this event, Kailani? Well, and now I… You spill it.

[160:00] been… I've been rehired, too, so I need… we both have left and… And here we thought we were… we were ahead of the game. I just…. We will be handing out appreciation gifts, though, for the…. I want to show you guys… next time I'll show you guys… at that meeting, I'll show you guys. We did a historic print of Chautauqua and the Flatirons, and we printed it across 5 skateboard decks and mounted it in our office, and it looks… Awesome. So, I've kind of scratched the itch, but I would like one of yours from the vault. I think we have those, right, Amanda? We've got. We do. All lined up, so…. Yeah. Well, thank you guys. Sorry we're running over. It's tough, though, and the dual project is always gonna throw us… it's gonna be hard to manage time, just because you never know how much time someone's gonna spend between the two. Yeah, and that was a wild card. I didn't know we were gonna get… Such passion about those steel and glass. I didn't either. I mean, I kind of appreciate it, but I didn't realize that's gonna happen.

[161:04] I agree. That… that does happen. It's good practice. This is really good practice to just get in the… in the… this frame, especially if we're getting more applications. There are more in the queue, the applicants just have not… processed those for DAB quite yet, so this is not going to be a one-off, so I think the more practice, the better. Some of the things, though, too, is, We could work on some strategies, like a round robin. You can go through each board member, that might help with some of the crosstalk, and really, if you want to call people out, going through each one, and everybody gets a chance before someone speaks again, that might help, too, on some of the… speeding up the time. So… but we can talk about that as far as, like, if you want to do… we could do a little workshop on the side as far as meeting stuff. But, yeah. I mean, I think he did really well. It was 6… like, before 6.30, we just are reviewing right now. I'm not counting this time.

[162:05] It's good for us to go through those comments one more time. Yeah. It was a big project, and you got a lot done, and…. And I think the, the presentation of the first project was longer than…. I thought so myself. I was… I wasn't expecting a presentation that… with that much. Yeah. Yeah, so that's, like, another thing, too, is I think we forget to, let the applicant know, hey, you only have 10 minutes. You've got 10 minutes for your presentation. So maybe that's one of the things we just get in the habit of during our agenda meeting, is going through the… It's a process of what that meeting will look like, and things like that. So, it'll… It's all just practice. Yeah. Yeah. Alright guys, well, thank you so much, we'll catch up soon. Thank you so much. Just one more question, when is the recording on the….

[163:03] So, the recording is up within 3 business days. I mean, we send it over to our media team immediately, But yeah, it should be up within 3 business days, if not sooner. Okay. Okay. That would be… that's helpful. Awesome. Alright. Alright. Thank you. Suit. Thank you. Officially adjourn, doing. Oh, yeah, we have to…. Oh, yeah. …. Adjourned at 6.47, yeah. Yes, this meeting is adjourned at 647. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Have a good night! I agree. Oops.