October 28, 2024 — Parks and Recreation Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:28] e e

[1:22] I just have a few items I want to call your attention to over the next several months and they really pertain to council's agenda in November um next Thursday night they will discuss the revocable easements that you all approved at your September meeting planning board unanimously approved those last week so they're moving through the approval Chanel to city council that is on November 7th on November 14th there is a joint study session with the planning board and city council well they were they will discuss whether to initiate the area three planning Reserve study basically in summary whether or not to include further exploration of area three and

[2:00] round of the comp update um as you're aware 200 Acres of that area 3 planning Reserve is par plan and so we're supporting that conversation and that's all I have thank you so much um the next part of the meeting is public participation this portion of the meeting is for members of the public to communicate ideas or concerns to the board regarding pars and Recreation issues for which a public hearing is not scheduled later in the meeting the public encouraged to comment on the need for Parks and Recreation programs and Facilities as they perceive them all speakers are limited to three minutes depending on the nature of your matter you may or may not receive a response from the board after you deliver your comments the board is always listening to and appreciative of community feedback and Rosa how many people do we have signed up I have three people two virtual one in person okay let's start with the folks who came in or the person who came in in person

[3:00] um who do we have first Jill taer Jill thanks for joining us Rosa are you ready for her to start talking or should we give you a are you ready thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak this evening my name is Jill haer I'm here on behalf of the Boulder Community Aquatics Coalition we are a group of six team or clubs that are internally comprised of approximately two 2,000 year round adult and youth lap swimmers we first present some presented our concerns to city council almost exactly a year ago expressing concern that we were short on Bo on uh lap Lan Lan space for lap swimming in the short term and then in the long term we believe that we have been heard we've had conversations with BPR and we are appreciative of the opportunity to have those conversations we do want to reiterate the urgency with which we have our our problems the lane space that is

[4:02] not within VPR is shrinking and we have a pressing need to solve the problem both long-term and shortterm with some bridges to getting us to the long-term solution so we just wanted to have the chance to say that again we keep saying that because we some of our teams could possibly go out of business and we are nonprofits and we serve the same youth in the community that you serve and if the Lan space issue is not solved we're we're in a dire situation so just wanted to have a chance to say that to yall I do have a copy of the letter that we presented to City Council in October if anyone would like a copy of that thank you would you like to give me a copy you have anything else you want to add you've got a minute and 30 seconds left that's good for now thank you so much for your time appreciate your comments thank you thank you anybody else in the room

[5:05] okay let's go to our online posts okay Mr chair I have Aaron you said Aaron Aaron Mana hello everyone am I audible yes I can hear you uh thank you first of all for allowing me to speak um the technology seems to be doing what we expected it to do so that's a that's always a win um and thank you for the work that you doing now um I'm wanting to speak specifically about the south bould Rec Center um and I respect the work that has been done I saw the you know the quote unquote report card you know on full display there in South bould Rec Center giving it a very dismal grade um and I am speaking now to question if the study took into account the emotional psychological effects that Center had has on our

[6:00] Beloved Community when we look around the country and all we see is Doom and Gloom fragmentation of communities polarization of families um the disintegration of the connective fabric that makes our country what it is what makes Boulder so special it's almost unbelievable that we're actually talking about removing a community space a center for wellness A Center for Health the center for connectivity when the tragedy happened to King Supers when the fires happened um friends were spontaneously gathering at the South bould Rec Center even when it wasn't open we just didn't know where else to go that was a vital part of our community um what whether it makes Financial sense long-term strategic sense Etc I'm just urging that one of the that some of the factors that are considered are the quote unquote softer factors not necessarily the bottom line factors but what makes what makes a community healthy and thriving um um

[7:00] again when we see the challenges in front of us um the answer is almost always Community the answer is almost always Gathering spaces the answer is almost never let's get rid of our community Gathering spaces recognizing I don't have the insights that everyone else may have um you know who conducted the study Etc um I was shocked to see such dismal grades for a place where I never see anything but smiles um so thank thank you thank you so much uh who's our next person Dave can you hear us I can okay great give us a second to get the Tim up are you ready da Ready

[8:02] set go go for it okay thanks for letting me speak tonight um thanks to the board for all the great work that you do um I've lived in South Boulder for over 40 years U with my wife and we've raised two kids here um I've been a business owner and B Boulder for for quite a long time um been working for a couple non profits and a financial capacity I've been a coach at Fairview High School for 17 years I've been in South Boulder for a long time and of course we we heard a lot of rumors during covid and there were some systems problems at South bould W but the uh when it when it finally showed up in print and we saw that there was a plan to just let South Boulder Rec Center fail as it may uh I think it was a shock to all of us and um I've I've talked to tens maybe hundreds of people

[9:00] so far that uh can't can't really View South Boulder without having its own recck Center I think Aaron made a lot of good points um just trying to think of an analogy to me it would almost be like reading a news story that New York City was deciding to shut down 33% of Central Park because one of the um duck ponds um became unserviceable and they didn't want to replace it and there were some trees that were you know at a aging out at full life so they were just going to develop it and sell it off as uh as low-income housing anyway my point is that South Boulder Rec Center is a very important fundamental part of Boulder and the idea of closing it to me is just a non-starter um there was a study done in 2016 that rated the quality of the building just a notch below the North Boulder rec center and the e

[10:00] and then 5 years later the city's decided that it's time to shut it down um I'm wondering how we got from point A to point B I've read some other City documents that talk about how the city hasn't set aside enough money for maintenance each year and it's sorry that it hasn't hasn't set aside 2% a year for building replacement it should have done that but it hasn't and now we're eight years past that study that showed that the building was in good shape and we're going to shut it down because it might need a new boiler or a new sewer line to me that's kind of ridiculous the current replacement value of the South Boulder Rec Center is about 21 million and if we build a new one it'll probably cost more than that why would we not put a new boiler in there or change a sewer line the idea of closing South Boulder Rec Center makes no sense of me to all at all and I'm hoping the board will take that message back to the city thank you very much thank you Dave

[11:02] we have anybody else signed up for public comments nobody that was it great um so I would like to give staff an opportunity if they would like to address um any of the comments that were made um if you'd like yeah I'll just note that the future of recreation center Darren joined us tonight to provide a process overview on that project and I think that'll be really helpful we tried um in different venues to clarify some of the proc information and I think that'll be really helpful for folks and if you can't hang around for the meeting it's recorded you can listen later asynchronously um so Darren Wagner is the PM for that project and I think that'll be helpful for talking about both sou and LS thank you do members of the board have any um comments or questions related to the comments or the public comment that was just shared I have a question yeah go ahead um so it seems like we've been hearing I've been hearing a lot um in here and also outside of people

[12:04] kind of comparing the quality of the services and the rec centers that are available dur Boulder to other cities nearby you I was just wondering if we have um the figures about what terms of what type of budget allocation those bordering cities are providing to their re like perks and recs on like a per capita basis and also as a percentage of the overall City budget I think that would be helpful because it seems like he really needs to kick in some funding to make a difference and it would be helpful to know like not just say like oh they have better facilities but no like how much money are these places allocating to their FA that would be helpful for me Jackson our senior manager for business services here and I'll let them take that we're happy to report back on that as part of the 2022 BPR Plan update um we had a outside consultant provide a financial analysis um often referred to

[13:00] as the B King analysis and that looked at it and it's very difficult to compare apples to apples just because of the different funding sources Boulder has a dedicated sales tax a dedicated property tax we do collect a higher percentage of Revenue uh we are happy to return back and show you that um other thing that this will feed into is the long-term Financial strategy a lot of those Investments have been made with bonds um and that's something that requires voter approval so that is something that's being considered that you've heard about as a 2025 work plan Initiative for the entire city not just Parks and Recreation so I would expect that will Jackson is a key he's leading one of the work streams for that project when would it be appropriate like based on that project timeline for us to give an overview of the timeline and probably January or February okay and so we can revisit that report at that time or we can email it tomorrow it's actually online I'm sure with the the Ballard King report that has some of those benchmarking and and revenue comparisons but I think the

[14:00] relevant point is around not it's all relevant but the The Helpful Next Step will be when we talk about the long-term Financial strategy and the question youed about the level to which we're funding or not Parks and Recreation can you just go back on this this overall I'm a little confused about the bond measures and and the timing of this long-term Financial strategy and how for example if there was a bond measure for these rec centers where would it fit in and when would it happen answer that can you just project a little bit more it's a little bit hard to I've never been told I'm not now allowed special day and I'm I'm super excited thank you Tina I appreciate that thank you T um Eric can you repeat your question well just you know there's been talk about Bond measures floating around is a as a possible solution for some of these Rec Center issues and I just want to know the timing of that and I've heard that we have there's other Bond measures possibly for other things and part of a city overall plan am I right and I just want to know I'm a little confused about

[15:00] the order of that of those measures and what the timing would be for at the soonest possibly that we could get this as a ballot measure I think um I don't want to get ahead of it but any of the ballot strategies would align with a November election most likely um so November of 25 or November of 26 okay um if you think about it there's a significant amount of community engagement that needs right as well as the staff analysis outside consultant analysis so I think November 25 is the aggressive timeline um November 26 would be the more conservative timeline and so we don't have the answers to what ballots won that's the work that is outlined and what I heard Jackson say is that in January we can I know it's being developed right now there's really rough timelines we showed it to you is it in the budget presentation tonight that I also have a slide in mine too oh perfect yeah with the long-term Financial strategy timeline correct awesome so you'll see some of that timeline thanks for clarifying because it's just a little Lots acronyms and projects yeah and I

[16:01] just I just wanted to touch on uh Jill's comment first just respond because I did hear that another yearr round outdoor pool was closing the Elks pool so you know if you don't other members if you don't know we've lost the rally pool which was a year round pool a couple years ago then cic closed and hopefully they're going to reopen it's lifetime I'm not sure that but then the Elks pool now will not be open uh this winter and then you know if bould the W goes down we're down four pool so I I do see the the need here I mean I know there's a lot of needs but that does seem like a lot in a couple years for uh for a huge portion of the population that swims so you know it it doesn't seem like it's kind of uh urgent anybody else um go ahead we have on the agenda tonight the future of recreation center so have more opportunity to talk about

[17:00] that right I'm going to reserve some of my questions for later great um I will reserve my question for that time too so thanks so much for everybody who came and spoke um but let's move on with the agenda so the next item is the consent agenda and as a reminder the consent agenda includes the approval of last meeting's minutes um the updates from the director of parks and W operations updates and also the planning design and construction updates which you've all been provided with um so I'm going to ask for a motion to approve the consent agenda Jenny second second BR um all in favor well are there any um comments or any discussion on the consent agenda before I do that I do um I have one suggestion um when you're listing the

[18:01] capital construction projects in that grid can you organize them by like design completed um planning just so they're like actually organized in a way that's in the same category um now they're kind of jumbled I think that would just be easier to track thank you so much Mark okay um any other comments or discussion on the consent agenda okay um all in favor of approving the consent agenda say I I allst okay consent agenda is approved that means the minutes from last meeting are approved Rosa um send that to me for approval or signature okay we have no action items but we do have a hefty matter for discussion um on the 2025 Boulder parks and rec fee schedule so I'll hand it back to staff for that thank you so much and I thank Jackson

[19:01] our senior manager for business services presenting this item supported by Megan our senior manager for recreation I'll just not our deputy director is taking some well deserved time off this weekend so they're at it alone with no support I'm going to be fine I'm just kidding we're all here so members of the prbly know that I've introduced myself multiple times um thank you Contin process we're going slightly out of order and I I'm going to show you the long-term Financial strategy um basically we are at the center point um the second Red Dot um and that was with the adoption of the budget which you saw in your consent item the two work streams that are really going to take a while are the comprehensive fee study and the financial analysis which are the gray and the yellow boxes and then that really informs the ballot strategy in the bottom right hand corner um there aren't any dates on this aside from the approval of the 2025 budget um just depending on how long that takes so I did want to Pivot and just provide you

[20:01] that little bit of analysis here um it's not included directly as one of the slides in your packet tonight but Darren will have it so um just wanted to jump to that real quick all right uh I get to go back to the top of the presentation in the meantime Stacy is handing out uh both the uh select pages from the packet as well as the presentation we do have some small numbers and with this there are some red line fee changes that we wanted to highlight which is why um a document in front of you we thought might be a little bit easier um in your consent item you did hear that the 2025 budget was approved by city council uh last week two weeks ago I'm losing track of time um but basically just wanted to highlight that and within the 2025 budget we've included a $500,000 placeholder for anticipated fee increases in 2025 um so that's why we're talking through the fee schedule tonight um and I really wanted to set the context once again um the next several slides you have seen

[21:00] before we have updated them um but really our guiding document when we talk about fees is the 2022 BPR this was approved by the prbs city council um as well as the planning board and it really identified six key themes andin that Financial sustainability was one of the themes um it clearly states within the plan that we need to balance our service demands with our available resources um and then continually seek additional funding last year the pr approved a fee policy and this really identifi with three of the um goals and initiatives that were identified within the VPR plan um and was a huge step forward to providing some additional transparency and consistency in how we go about setting our fees um you will recognize these two graphs uh we talked through community recreation is something where the community benefits and that has a lesser cost and it's funded primarily with taxes on the far right hand side we have something with the individual benefits and that's where we have user fees as part as p in the middle is what a lot of

[22:00] our uh programming focuses on and that's General Recreation this is often a blend of both taxes and user fees uh because there's benefit for both the community as well as the individual participating um also within the fee policy we had 10 different uh program types these are listed on the screen the three that we're really focused on tonight are the top three that's facility entry the golf course and rentals um you will see that special events in commercial use were delayed for plan implementation with the 2026 Fe setting and that's basically due to a larger staff project that's underway currently we do have alternative mechanisms in place for other aspects of setting fees um an example the service delivery model we do evaluate quarterly um or annually depending on the program as new recreation programming is implemented uh posted out at the individ life cycle or we're evaluating the competitiveness in the market um contracted programming goes through uh part of a contract negotiation

[23:00] process and then there are certain areas where we will just never have he setting um because of the emphasis and importance of community recreation um and access to park plan are some folks in room who were not part of this process last year would you just quick give us some examples of what's community and what's indivual yes um I will go back here um I am going to focus on some very broad examples um we have a sweetheart dance uh where members of the community can come in and be in a recreation center uh parents and children are together that's something that would we would focus on much more as a community benefit our YSI programming where we go out to manufacture at home sites is very much a community benefit program um we are providing services in the community to low-income residents which are a um identified population within the 2022 plan on the other end individual um you can think of something as as a boat on

[24:00] the reservoir um that is something that you have to own a boat you aren't really interacting with other individuals um other exclusive activities would be um any of our competitive aspect programming um so more of that advanced skill set with any of the recreation programs or something like uh the golf course um being on a golf course and playing around of golf thank you we do have examples from last year's memo we can share that out the fact that it really walks through every one of these okay this part really identifies revenues and expenses uh the far right hand col for 2024 is updated through Q3 so the end of September and this really just highlights that the recreation activity fund is a wasi Enterprise fund but we do have to balance revenues and expenses every year um we are currently trending where we would expect um primarily due to a ongoing subsidy provided by the 0.25 Cent sales tax fund

[25:01] where the department has chosen to supplement the general fund subsidy to provide additional subsidy to um those Community benefit programs this slide has been updated since last month as well uh it really focuses on the recovery from 2019 through 2024 uh in the far right hand column you'll see that every area that we are tracking has had double digit growth between 2023 and 24 um just to the left of that is from 19 through 24 we can see that we have had growth across the board with everywhere except for recreation centers based on current trends and visitation we do expect that to essentially be even by the end of the year um and everywhere else we have seen growth um outdoor pools is significantly higher just because in 2019 Scott Carpenter pool was closed um and Spruce was our only outdoor pool that was open That season uh this graph you saw last month as well it's been updated to reflect our Trends um the red line shows earned

[26:00] Revenue through 2020 uh September 2024 this really just identifies that we have some seasonality in our Revenue collection um and we're exactly where we would expect to be at this time of the year so I'm going to move forward to the feed policy Direction um within the feed policy there is different things that you need to consider with be said one is the level of community benefit so Bernie thank you for your question that was perfect uh another is supply and demand are we seeing that our classes programs facilities are at capacity or do we have um significant um un or minimal enrollments that are causing supply and demand imbalance we do do market rate comparisons so we often look at our Benchmark communities in the Front Range just recognizing that that is our primary Market um within that we also look at other nonprofits and government agencies uh so bbsd CU um are some examples as I mentioned earlier we you have difficulties doing Apples to Apples

[27:00] comparisons just because of the funding models and mechanisms by different agencies uh within the fee policy we do have uh residency and non-residency priority uh residents are paying more in sales tax and More in property tax which goes to fund a lot of Earth programming um that we've historically provided discounting for residents uh and then the rest of these I think really just align with what you've heard about the 2022 BPR plan um age-based discounts focusing on um populations and communities that benefit the most from community recreation we do have definitions that were included in your packet of what the direct costs are uh this is really the direct cost for providing Services um something that you can relate to a person being at that facility um or supporting it um through materials and supplies and then indirect are all of the ancillary benefits um I don't do any programming to the benefit of everyone in the community um but there is Staff time that goes into uh helping

[28:00] administer our department funds our HR resources our it resources um as well as futurs office so with 2025 uh we had really focused on the direction from the fee policy given that that was adopted by prab um and then as we looked to update our fees um to basically close that 00,000 placeholder that we put into the budget um we also looked at our historical price increases um we delayed this process this year to to really look at that summer recovery period seeing those double- digit growths was very impressive um and with Recreation being a volume based business it makes sense to delay the process a little bit to observe that recovery um the more people that participate uh we are able to spread those expenses across the board so there's T an impact on the individual user um we have identified that without additional subsidy we will continue to focus on the priority priority areas um that's the youth seniors people with disabilities and low incomes um we are

[29:02] supplementing that funding that we received from the general fund with the 0.25 Cent sales tax fund to really ensure that that's accessible finally we really want to uh promote memberships as the best value for individuals um we identify this as um seeing repeat customers uh daily drop in users pay more due to the flexibility um we're hoping to minimize some of the options within our overall fee schedule um and then there's some added benefits to having memberships because of U marketing efforts as well as knowing who's inside of our facilities having signed waivers and things of that nature I will pause there I've done a lot of talking are there any questions when you uh considered um your fee setting did you um you said you Market comparison did you look at uh private sector we do look at private sector um I think it really depends on the program or the facility that we're looking at and what the best Market comparison is okay um in some instances

[30:01] it is the private sector I think because we focus on community recreation we focus more on the municipalities that provide similar Services okay um but if it is a very specialized program we would look at the private sector and then second question um on cost recovery were there are there goals the department goals for cost recovery that I have missed someplace are they in the2 plan or they're in the fee policy from last year if you fli back to Community benefit the numbers are in that slide just and it's in the policy but you can oh they're not I'm oh yeah they are in the screen bar screen bar we have a general range okay um on page 27 of the packet it starts out um and Bernie we do have more examples in here as far as uh the types of services um but we've basically done it in 10 percentage increments

[31:02] um then and then to me it seems like you know the usage is coming back right so we're bringing in more Revenue I sort of question like you said these expenses are now getting spread out by more users they sort of question the need for these continual increases at some point I mean we're getting hit by every end on price increases and inflation it seems I guess you know is it is it to try to get to these cost recovery numbers numbers or is it just because we need to continually increase like you know I think it's two part one is we are attempting to me our cost recovery numbers the other is the market and increase in expenses we've seen yeah um I will give you life ring as an example we are now paying 75% more than we did in 2019 um on an hourly rate for but my question is isn't that offset by some of these increased users like so you know that's are those numbers there like you

[32:00] know or like I just I I do really question the need for continual increases especially when I feel like our rec centers are declining and to ask the public for more money to go declining Rex which we are going to talk about next it's hard it's hard to go out there and like I get that feedback all the time about the reservoir people are there's nobody in Boulder that likes to pay to go to the reservoir except for a hero boater right but you know to me that's a community part and space and like you should be you know you don't you don't pay to go to the beach and most in most coastal cities you know so I I don't know I just I I am very uh I've heard a lot about the fees from other people and I'm just trying to translate that here the challenge is that the budget does not balance it's not about I mean yes cost recovery goals is how the the where we apply the fee increases but the budget does not balance without additional fees because you know Jackson gave what examples around lifeguards but chemicals for the

[33:00] pools those are seeing a nearly double digit increase utilities are seeing a significant increase Stacy could probably give six more examples off the top of her head of where the prices have increased and the volume is not enough because it's just getting us to where we were in 2019 but the price the costs aren't what they were in 2019 so it's great that the visitation is coming back but the revenue has to grow to match the growth and expenses and the other piece I would just note um you said something about the of where I understand that there's a perception that it's a park it is not funded by tax dollars it is entirely in the recreation activity fund and funded by user fees and that's just a I love Dana's question about benchmarking and other facilities our funding is very very different um we've not had a significant funding incre since 1995 we've had some one-off bonding increases that have paid for projects but from an operating perspective there's not been an increase other than user fees it's the only way we have to keep up with the cost of doing business

[34:02] have you asked city council for a budget in base so the um city sets budget guidelines every single year about how to develop the budget holistically and not ad hoc and Department by department and those budget guidelines every year are set based on Revenue projections that are developed with the um cu's economic CU yeah cu's Economic Department Department it's not in the department it's in the business school but so they make they make projections on Revenue based and then they say okay we have this half a billion dollar budget to balance it and synthesize it Citywide here are the guidelines and we do submit budget requests they get synthesized and the city manager develops a budget and so when there are we have we do ask for funding where we can um and so but as far as large sale like asking for additional money that's this long-term Financial strategy I'm very glad that conversation is happening I think that's the window to talk about if the community is interested in additional

[35:01] funding for Parks and Recreation or on the other hand if there are trade-offs if there are services at things we should stop doing to provide others and looking at the fee structures are you taking into account what might be then a reduction in usage because the fees are going up like are we canceling ourselves out that's something that we consider um we do our us to forecast what we expect usage to be uh looking at historical Trends we don't think that the double digit growth we've seen over the last year or two years will be sustainable moving forward um and there is some attrition that occurs as we do price increases um I would like to move forward to financial aid just to talk through how the financial aid program really supports this s before move on um ell can you talk a little bit more about like how we how we in this room in the pr can like give feedback to the council like hey like like I said we all hear it all the time like the parks are

[36:01] expensive the re centers expensive we're not necessarily providing as much value as facilities that cost the same amount in other cities sure so what how do we give that feedback to the city council Elliott do you want to take that first and then I can add to it well um you're entitled to speak to a member of city council about any matter um uh individually as a member of the board and if you want to if we as a board want to provide feedback to council um we would have to vote on somebody delegate them to provide that feedback um and that would just be part of our meeting process at some point do we transmit memos to city council I mean you know yet last month we heard about our roles as pre and one of them is to provide recommendation to city council and what you just kind of told me it was a little bit more informal do we formally provide recommendations every year like we provide letter to city council every year laying out our priorities um and

[37:02] what we hope they will but more specific like on specific items such as this like the policy are we going to vote is this a this is not vot voting thing right are just informationally telling us what you're plan we do approve that letter no no this fee structure oh the fee structure we will vote to approve that we will so if we unanimously vote it down what happens then I mean is that an indication to to city council or is that horrible for the Parks and Recreation Department so there's a couple of challenges that so the budget has been approved and it has the placeholder for the fee increases so we have to find a way to make an additional funds next year to balance the budget we've calculated these proposed fee increases will get there based on usage based on the math that Jackson and his team do and so you can certainly provide input on the nature of those revenues we're going you're going to provide input tonight we're going to bring an item back to you in November to discuss and

[38:00] so you're not taking action tonight right so you're going to give us feedback and you're going to tell us this stins do this differently give us you know tell us the math on this and we'll come back to you in November with the balance but um whether we make additional money next year is would be pretty problematic if you were to say no hold all fees so this increases is $500,000 is that what the budget placeholder you said was so these increases will get to the $500,000 correct and that's about 2.8% of our overall revenues okay just for Parks and Recreation but just to get to Jenny's question though let's just say theoretically we said no um that's a recommendation right to city council does city council ultimately approve the fee increases or do we have the authority to do that it's or are we like what what what is our voice matter in the process so Parks and Recreation fees are not codified meaning they do not go through an ordinance change and they do not require city council approval technically they also do not require your approval however we are seeking

[39:02] your recommendation on this matter as outlined in your roles last month it's not a shall you don't have to approve them and so if we were to hear your feedback tonight and come back with a revision in November and if you were to not approve it we would pass along that feedback but it's not a required approval it's we would not we don't recommend these fees I see okay um did that ask your question a little bit I just I'm just trying to figure out how we better give our recommendations to city council directly like formally or informally I mean like you know are we transmitting memos on these things or is it it seems like everything's going through the department whereas last month we heard under our Charter it's really to provide recognition to both Department like Park and right and city council yeah I mean that's partially true we we when we have action items we vote on that are shall issues per the charter and for the per the code that then go to city council for approval we're giving our recommendation on a

[40:01] specific issue the budget's a big one um and there are a couple of others we submit the letter each year to council saying here are our priorities this these are the things we want you to fund and you know this past year we were pretty clear about things we wanted them to fund and fund at a greater level um and then we can we've done this before we can submit a resolution yeah we got no response from that work right like also can um approve a resolution as a board to council which we've done before okay um if we feel very strongly about a certain issue um but no we don't transmit memos to council um we work with staff to ensure that they're operating effectively and that we weigh in where we can with recommendations and the shall items but that's the nature of our connection with Council as a board but we as board members can always go to council and say hey uh you know we want more we feel like or

[41:01] I feel like as a board member this needs to happen I'm hearing this from the community what's this what city council's approach to this you know when are you taking this up in your budget um we can attend meetings where they're discussing items that we talk about and we can weigh in um there are ways we can connect with them is there any reason why we couldn't create a memo on a topic that we cared about and transmit to the board as a batter from this board uh yes we we certainly could um we could vote on that and say we want this transmitted to we want this provided to council and they have the discretion to read it or not right or not I mean I think our Collective voice it's a lot more strength than individual conversations with City Council Members if we feel uh if we are agreeing on on a issue that is very important to us you know I think they need to hear that from pre and not necessarily from the Department I think it comes there are different were different roles here a little bit yeah

[42:01] no I agree and um I think that if we speak as one um that carries more weight I would say than just if one person with their personal views um connects with Council but certainly an option if um if we want to talk about that at some time you know during a meeting or we want to it's part of our agenda setting um you know set something up if there's an issue that really we feel strongly about that we want to communicate with Council on in writing we should definitely plan that up but it's certainly on the table if we want to go that direction um any other next question okay thank you for the questions yes and before we Jackson did you have anything to add to that that um I think the only additional thing was Eric response to the or question about the reservoir uh we will be doing a reservoir business plan um that will return back to the pra next year I think I'm I'm the point person on that so I'm interested in okay you'll hear

[43:01] more about that um so I promised I would talk about financial aid um financial aid is something that the department offers in order to encourage accessibility and that community recreation um in 2024 we changed the eligibility to increase from 50% of um area of media area of median income Ami to 60% to align with other City departments and um agencies in Boulder cap uh through the midpoint of the year we were at 3,855 enrollments um this is a growth of 12% over last year um 49% since 2019 um and we have seen increase with visitation and now 177% of all visitation um is from a financial aid participant um that is just one way to access our facilities on top of accessing the facilities would you provide a $400 annual financial assistance ship um basically a scholarship to uh participate in programs uh youth are eligible for the

[44:01] play pass which is administered by uh play boulder um seniors do have access to but that's a separate process that's separate process and a separate entity you are correct um seniors can rely on uh third party memberships through their supplemental insurance uh we do see 90% of seniors are actually accessing our facilities through uh third party memberships at this point and then we offer age-based discount in line with it be 2022 um I think this addresses some of the concerns about the um accessibility of the community um obviously this isn't everyone um and it's very unfortunate if you're a dollar over the 60% Ami um you're not eligible so that is something that uh was identified in the VPR plan to uh focus on a sliding scale or some sort of mechanism to support those that are just over the threshold I'll pause there real quick any questions on financial aid so Ami and Boulder is about uh what's

[45:03] that um 75,000 or something or for one person I believe in 65,000 right now I believe for two people it's what about a family oh like family of 4 75ish okay um we can pull that and no I just want to Ballpark and then okay do you know the total if if we weren't to give financially what is that total dollar amount like if you know what I mean yeah is that can you is there we are do this every year there's two different mechanism or two different ways of calculating it one is based on the actual usage uh what is the charge per visitation um the other would be what is the value of membership that they're receiving because it is over the course of the year uh we calculate that each year and request that as part of the budget process to the internal City budget um I believe last year it was about 600 to 700,000 uh just for the financial aid discounting okay is there a reason why play passes to the like financially a

[46:00] program like the program um $400 play pass is administered by play boulder which is a separate entity so um it goes through that application process it can supplement the $400 that VPR provides no I'm just saying to like make it easier for people to get the money separate they do play bers Grant based so they have to do it through their own organization and we do we do work together to our our like they use our form as a qualifier for their program and we and their form is designed on our form so that we can use this so people aren't having to do the same thing twice it's just the same thing they're submitting to two different entities how much work is it to get to financial like you know for like you know these kids are going to the pool in the summer like not apply for play last time I help people were play bold I thought that was not reasonable the amount of questions that you had to provide but I

[47:01] feel like I'm fing it out myself and helping other families that the the city of older one is reasonable if if you look at that change from 2014 which is the the year on the left if you can't read that six point font I can I can't the year on elect is 2014 and that significant growth is a is a reflection of two key things one is that we did at the application it was like 10 pages it was mainly in English we streamlined it we reduced it to less than four pages we also made one point of entry so if you qualify for appropriate housing with Bolding housing Powers if you qualify for the city's food tax rebate if you qualify for these different entities we're taking that we're using that one door policy saying you don't have to reapply with us the other thing that has changed um is the way we have communicated and funded the program so in 2014 financial aid gave you a 50% discount to our facilities when Boulder voters approved the sugary sweeten beverage tax and the Health Equity

[48:01] Committee created this grant making process that funds the play pass that also provides funding for our recity program when we got that funding for the first time we piloted it with some Boulder housing Partners s sites and said what if we make it free and visitation quadrupled folks who had a fully free pass not only did they get the pass but they came and visited the facilities so we've also applied for Health Equity Fund grants and that has allowed us to expand that program it doesn't fully fund it but it makes it free and the difference it's made for folks to go from a 50% discount to fully free is as you can it's significant and we're so proud of this number because it really is years of work I'm certain the application process continue to get easier oh the other thing we changed is it used to be you had to go to the iris am. to 5:00 pm which is incredibly a limiting factor for folks who don't have that flexibility you can now walk into any Recreation Center when they're open and apply for financial aid or do it on

[49:01] thank you those are all really good questions so uh these next few slides follow uh the order of the memo as well as a attachment deed um you will see some screenshot so please feel free to view um attachment if you want some bigger uh size font um the facility entry fees are basically the daily entrance fees that people pay to access the recreation centers three recreation centers the two outdoor pools and then the boulder reservoir uh the recommendation is to shift from a resident non-resident for the daily drop in users to a flat fee um this would simplify the pricing and really align with what the department was doing prior to 2020 um our staff often lead with the question are you a resident or do you live or work in Boulder um which obviously creates some sample bias um but then also having two different fees creates some confusion on both the staff side as well as the public side we do see some benefits of this of driving more individuals to a membership with a membership we can do

[50:01] increased marketing um as well as increased safety outs of knowing who is in our building um because we do have information on that person um contact information dat of birth Etc um within the proposal we would maintain the discounts for Youth and seniors uh really aligning with the uh Department Plan guidance and as I mentioned this would really encourage more memberships um for our recreation centers uh 89% currently access the facility using the pass then this would really only impact about 11% of the population who are paying a daily drop in currently and we hope would uh change Behavior to BU a pass of some sort I will pause here and see if there's any questions anybody have a question before I go okay so are we prompting or planning to prompt people when they pay these daily fees that hey you know um we offer this annual pass that could save you you know whatever percent um or do we have like marketing signs that are at

[51:01] our facilities that promote passes yes yeah I'll take this one um so I mean really with someone who's paying a daily drop in what what we actually hope to kind of get them to to is that 10 punch pass because it doesn't expire and if they really aren't using it that often it's a really great deal and that gets them at least that first discount and for us to have their information um it's It's A Hard Sell for someone who wants to come in one time to do an annual pass or a monthly but uh that 10 punch pass not expiring really helps create that bridge to access uh and then Our Hope through our marketing materials and everything while everything is advertised at the front uh desks we do have posters that say the different options uh by age group and everything else um you know it's we want to hopefully build that community and the people who are coming in for the 10 punch passes once they realize oh I am using it more often like that's more of the folks that might be in a monthly or an annual in the future as our hope uh but we try to Target some of our marketing and and advertisements that

[52:01] way rather than um you know it's a hard sell like I'm coming in one time not going to get an annual but uh that 10 punch not expiring is why it's we'd really love to encourage that okay like I'll just add on to that we don't collect email addresses for any of the daily users that's at the T punch level so as soon as we collect that email address we can now encourage them based on their usage oh you were here six times last month you'd actually be saving money if you bought a monthly pass um so that's one of the desired um reasons to move in that direction okay great do you also do the same type of communications to say financial aid exists if you earn blah blah blah is that in question as well we don't have any demographic data or household income data that would really inform it to them um but as soon as someone is in our marketing list they do receive information every two weeks um that would include here's our financial aid program play pass is doing a call for new um application so indirectly yes they would receive it and right now like the W guide the um

[53:03] like the New Year's promo anytime we do advertise memberships we also advertise the financial aid program so they do go pair and pair when we advertise what about isn't there a family membership so that's on the membership so next slide um for the daily drop in we do offer a group daily um that's four entries so it can be any four combination we just have a maximum of two adults uh we see that this is uh parent and three kids it's a parent and the neighbor's kids um any combination that uh we refer to it as the group daily or the forpack thanks is this um I I don't know the history of the increases you know for the last five 10 years but how does it track uh compared to the CPI you know like I mean this is a 20% increase in one you know so it's like how does that track does it track compared to CPI at all or um that was my

[54:01] first question second question is have we ever just considered keeping the resident non-resident and raising the non-resident rates because you know well the carpenter is pretty crowded on the weekends you know like um to answer the first question CPI I would need to go back and double check that um I believe that we are uh raising rates slightly higher than CPI just because of the cost of Labor and the cost of chemicals um being our two biggest they're growing above CPI correct so maybe we could do a look back that shows CPI cost escalation like where expenses have grown and then tier Point fees yeah would we can maybe bring that back in November is that feasible okay and then the second part of your question about uh charging non-residents more we did look at the data and I we actually have the majority of residents accessing the three indoor rec centers and the two outdoor pools the only spot where we have a majority non-residents is Reservoir um that we think having one consistent fee for daily drop-ins makes

[55:01] more sense you will see on the next slide we do charge a premium for 10 punches monthly annuals um summer fund for non-residents that's about 20% more than resident rates so moving forward um for all of our passes this includes the 10 punch pass which you buy in bulk uh monthly gets you unlimited access summer fun is basically unlimited access to all facilities between Memorial Day and Labor Day um and then an annual pass is valid for 12 months uh what we're doing here is maintaining that Resident non-resident rate um and then keeping the different age categories so adult senior Youth and household um and there is a 5% increase across the board uh this makes it for the 10 punch pass there's a volume based discount of 15% per residents um and then for all of the monthly and on passes uh the break even is about six or seven visits a month um just depending on if you're a resident or a non-resident we do have data in

[56:01] here showing what percentage of uh users are um accessing our facilities via pass that you can see that the majority of indoor and outdoor pools are currently on a pass already just a personal shout out uh outdoor the unlimited summer fund pass for family is a great deal um and then the other thing I'll mention uh to your point Eric is we haven't increased fees for two years the average fee increase for these passes is 45% which is below CPI um when you're looking at the cumul CPI over those two years but that's on the that's on the on the memberships but the corre the daily is going up okay okay we're going to shift over to the golf course um plance Golf Course is one of the busiest in the state um I think you have all seen that the driving range is one of the top 10 um so this goes back to the pricing based on supply and demand uh the proposal is a 10 15% increase per round of golf this equates to one of5 um golf is a very individual

[57:02] benefit program so should be at that full cost recovery um there's a proposal to add in tournament fees with the completion of um the Ironwood uh restaurant it makes sense that the facility can now host tournaments um and then we have other accessories of balls carts and clubs that would all have um minor increases there is a proposal to clean up um some clarification with current practice I is regarding holidays um annual passes is the only annual pass that we have split out into multiple age categories for Youth and we would just align that with one um children 10 and under would play three with a pain adult um this really encourages that youth engagement um and even with these price increases you would still be in the bottom half to the bottom third of Market comparisons um and we'll actually have updated data from the meeting that our Golf Course directors attendant tomorrow is that a new thing that children under 10 with a paying adults free uh that has currently been the practice um it hasn't been directly stated on the Fe schedule so this is

[58:01] calling it out directly um and again just to remind the public I mean the golf course is open all year with the exception of a couple of days right correct okay I think there's four exposures a year we a lot in January if we're being honest it's open It's gotta be SN off yeah obviously comp s but still fun to go in the snow J every time it is no I know I used to use uh I used to use the ponds when they were iced over as part of my Fairway yes all right shifting over small the reservoir um there are multiple ways to or multiple things to do with the reservoir so daily access there would be um no changes proposed it would align with the facility entry um so I guess that is a m type there is the ship from the resident non-resident to just a single daily drop in um with the reservoir annual pass will be a 5% increase to align with the other pass types um boat moing which is

[59:01] storage and then annual passes there's a proposal to get rid of the resident and non-resident rates and just have a per boat fee um because there's no general fund dollars or um taxes going towards supporting this we think that having one fee makes more sense um aligns with cost recovery and it's much more consistent with what the private Market does for both storage um exclusive use frontals uh we would align to full cost for adults um maintaining a subsidy for Youth and then there's some small administrative changes that would occur to our billing practices um so just nuts and bolts when do if this is approved when do these new fees go into effect these would go into effect January 1st okay so if somebody in the public wants to buy an annual patch for the golf course on December 31st it would cost $1,500 not 1,650 yes I need to double check as far as what our eligibility is I think we only sell that the first three months of the year um and then it's valid for the

[60:01] year but we will follow up on that uh the November meeting but just on that note for the annual passes and I believe we typically do a sale in December to let folks know like to buy their their monthly pass their annual pass their 10 punch before fees go up in January that is possible okay so you can do it in for the rec centers for sure golf limits the amount because there's a huge trade-off with annual passes at the golf course it is a different business than the recreation centers there's a limit into Jackson's point they may not be up for sale year round okay could you clarify um that at our next meeting or they follow with me by email abely be helpful to know thanks um if you're moving away from this resident non-resident division why is it maintained for the small watercraft that goes back to supply and demand um what we saw is we increased the number of permits in 2021 in response to co and the number of people that had gone out and bought uh standup

[61:00] paddle boards um we are not selling out of uh small craft permits whereas we are sing out of our um motorboat permits there's also just a added Community benefit associated with paddle boarding um you're on the water there's more interaction with others um it's a group activity I think that you would go out there with um friends there's that direct interaction what are the expenses with the small small watercraft small watercraft is really the ANS program um so aqu nuisance species um verifying the craft doesn't have any um algae contaminants debris on it when it comes in um and then also when exiting the reservoir and Lake Patrol so Lake Patrol when we have wind events or weather events at the reservoir it is the small craft who needs support okay Lake Patrol and obviously the rest of the amenities the bathrooms and the gate and operating the facility um we did recently get a letter from P Board Enthusiast um how does the small

[62:02] CFT Fe compar to other Reservoir I think when we look at the market most other reservoirs allow for daily entrances um based on prep Direction in 2020 2021 it was decided that the annual permits made more sense um for our small craft just because of the ANS I need to clarify that the 2012 Boulder Reservoir plan that's adopted by both pra and city council banned one day per at the boulder Reservoir because of the need to comply with aquatic nuisance species protocols so they are not currently Allowed by policy that was approved by Prav and Council the one day permits okay so I cannot bring my P Board in if I've been anywhere else you you have to have a permit you have to first have a permit once you have a permit every time you come in you are to go to the decontamination St station and have your paddle board inspected right and those permits are sold February till basically Memorial Day weekend um once we ship operations we stop selling the

[63:00] permits that they do need to be bought prior to the summer season and I think I heard you say that we're not personally selling out of small craft permits right correct why do you stop it why do you stop the I can actually answer that so I was in a meeting about this today and so um currently they stop it because we don't have the Staffing capacity like once we switch to may we switched to being able to operate and train the staff to do all the things and this was the first season we hadn't sold out of those since the pandemic so there hadn't been a need to keep the sale of them going um the we stopped selling them on May 4th this last year and so I know it's a question we would ask ourselves as part of the management plan if we are going to continue to not sell out when would we continue to sell them throughout the season to another point but I can't answer that question until the the management plan kind of helps us answer it but so for example um yeah that's question I just I this is the

[64:00] first I've ever heard of like needing a permit to use an inflatable stff I is that common because I mean I own one of these I've never had no one's ever checked me for an an any Lake I've ever been to in the midwest you know or around the world with this thing do you have an inflatable because you don't know it's in your car it's just like I I mean is there is there is this a real issue I mean we're already charging a gate fee and then now you're saying that you got to charge another feet to use your stand up pedal board I just think this is an accessibility issue more like we're really making it hard for people to get out on the water here I'm going to take that one we would love to make it easier the challenge is so if you've heard of quag muscles they are all over Lake Powell and they have now been found on some of the waters on the western boundary of col Colorado if they were to get into the boulder Reservoir it would cost millions of dollars every year in cost to the infrastructure so the boulder Reservoir is first and foremost water storage and that is always the first guiding principle when operating decisions made are made there so here it

[65:01] do Union Reservoir is not domestic water storage and they does not subject to the same protocols our Protocols are really strict Stanley Lake has banned all boating for this reason they just said we're not butly like is water storage for Thorton Westminster North Glenn and they said no boating they do allow standup paddles they have four decontamination stations they're taking it so seriously so for the west where water is so scarce and so it is it is required um and and the policies are very stringent I would love I see it at the res I see people show up with their stand up paddle and their bum they can't just go out for the day I would love to figure it out it has to balance the water quality protection and we haven't figured that out we do sell about 2200 permits a year so there is significant desire and interest but I understand your point what about like making I I feel like that the rental fees for the stand up paddle boards are not affordable to go with like a family so what if you make

[66:01] that significantly cheaper so that the people who don't come in time to get a permit or can't afford to pay this daily entry fee can easily that would require a funding source and we don't have additional funding to add services like that and it's also provided by a concessionaire right so um that's one of the businesses the city so we've talked about actually as part of the long-term Financial strategy businesses have we gotten out of in the last 20 years as a result of just challenges of balancing increases in expenses we don't provide the Bol rental service anymore it's a concessionaire um and there would have to be a funding source if you were to ask them to provide their services at a discount can you clarify the asked this question but like is there an extra expense if it was just single day use like if everybody who wants to paddle board has to pay the entrance fee and go

[67:00] by the decontamination station why is it like why not the single day and only permit like a lot of the people who get permits might only go four days of the summer or none or none just as a reminder the current policy does not allow it so it's going to require a policy change and an update to the boulder res plan which is going to happen with this management plan that policy can be looked at but it is a capacity issue we do not have we have one decontamination station that based on current voting traffic often has a line and especially on the weekends because everybody has to go through so if you wanted to add capacity which I would again we would love to figure this challenge out I would I would suggest it's not tonight's conversation and we save it for the reservoir management plan what I hear you all saying is you would love to figure out more ways to get stand up paddles on the boulder Reservoir I think Megan can take that back to the team we can make it part of the reservoir conversation I think it's I think it's going to be a big rabbit hole away from the fee conversation yeah and I just echoing that from since 2012

[68:03] when that policy was changed all the way through the pandemic we were having the opposite problem we limited permits this was the first year we didn't limit permits so this is a new this is a new need right because before we would have been Turning Away people who had a permit for the whole season to let someone who maybe was here for a day and and that wouldn't have been our priority at the time but again can I I'll bring that to the team and make sure it's part of the management plan I just not to be a dead work but like we here in the pr been hearing a lot about like really big problems like you know re Center is falling down we don't have any tennis courts and it's our fault right um I want to go paddle boarding seems like something that we can figure it out right it seems like a man like a achievable challenge I think there a lot of water quality is the tricky part so it's it's figuring out again Westminster invested and spent I think they built four decontamination stations so that

[69:01] they could handle whoever showed up so I know it's one of the policy questions to be addressed during the reservoir management plan process it's not just a matter of flipping a switch and turning it on the protections have to be there well we have we have ANS in the reservoir already is that right we have zra muscles yeah right okay and so what are they are they finding this I mean are we assessing like what are they finding when they're they're when they're rushing the boats down and they're like are they seeing these things traveling along I hear a lot of interest in the boulder Reservoir we can continue on conversation I'm concerned about time enough and we are going to be talking to you in 2025 about the reservoir management plan and so again it's to you it's your agenda if you want me to continue answering questions I will I I think we're on topic okay you all can vote to continue I'm not I'm not trying to Stone all the conversation I think it's relevant because we're talking B the reservoir fees and I think that this is an issue I think that we are we're a little over regulated here in my opinion like I

[70:01] think it's really hard to use the reservoir and I think that um it's you know I don't think the public knows that it's not a park it's not funded like a park I think they see it as an amenity I mean we're charging we're including it as a Rec Center we see it you know sometimes we treat it the same as a park but then we're trying to say well it's not the same again we're costing different things for it so I mean I hear a lot of feedback from people and that's kind of my role here I feel like I was put on this board to get feedback from that I'm hearing from the community and that's you know so I'm happy to table this and move on here's what I would suggest um so this is a meeting where we're giving feedback to staff about the speed policy um I think staff has received our feedback that um we're questioning some of the basis for the reservoir fees especially around um the costs associated with ANS ition and others and perhaps at the next meeting we can address those

[71:00] concerns how does that sound good cool perfect I'm G to move on um other changes is really just the catch all or all the other changes um we had some minor rental fee changes you'll see these for Park sh Park shelter fees um as well as adding an hourly rate for the Belmont Farmhouse um we've cleaned up some general terms it's really just consistency in definition and current practices uh there are no plan changes for the outdoor Court rentals we really wanted to have new ports on the ground to Bernie's point before um implementing any changes birthday parties have shifted to Service delivery model um and then there's certain fees that we did major updates to in 24 that we're just going to table until 2026 um to really observe that recovery with most of our fees we really do try and stick on a biannual basis um but this lets us have some um on years and off years with the different types of fees so we aren't hitting everyone all of

[72:03] us so um I'm sure there's some questions on engagement strategy uh we really have identified there will be a um emphasis on printed materials digital materials one-on-one Communications with impacted users um to Ali Megan's point there will be a winter sale uh I believe we're planning to kick this off on December 4th or December 11th um to really just advanced notice for people to buy at the current rates uh before fees increase um the emphasis of that will be focusing on the um drop in conversion to punch passes those punch passes do not expire um and are that 20% discount currently um the marketing sale may be slightly more of a discount um and then stock engagement we do want to have our front desk stuff ready to answer those questions when someone walks into the rec center um to share the financial aid program so let them know based on their visitation what pass makes the most sense for them um whether that's paying

[73:00] a daily drop in because they're a visitor in town or if they're planning to come um every Wednesday for pick up basketball we can accomodate all of that um talking about next steps uh the purpose of tonight is really to hear your questions um I know I've got two notet takers next to me and we will follow up on all of this next month um if there is any additional uh information you're seeking or other feedback that you have we are very open to it um I recognize that this is a volunteer position you didn't get in the business to uh increase fees and I don't think any of us did either um it's just us balancing our budgets uh we will return next month with uh any responses to the questions that you do have um I'm not committing to following up on absolutely everything there's certain things that may need to table to uh future items that the proud is working on or we'll hear about early next year um but we will address all of your concerns regarding fees um we will be asking you to take an action item on it uh this is the um crab's recommendation for the uh fee schedule and then as Ali

[74:02] mentioned V fees aren't cified so they will go through a process called the city manager rule um there's public noticing that appear The Daily Camera um I know that it seems Antiquated um but it also goes out to our user base um for awareness and then our desire would be to implement fees on January 1st of 2025 um all of this uh does feed into the long-term Financial strategy was mentioned earlier um I'm not going to delor that anymore so with that that's the end of our presentation any questions feedback or other stuff you want to see great in the interest of time I'm going to Short Circuit um this portion of the presentation um really thought that was a good discussion um appreciate all your questions those were all in might be relevant um but with Ali's reminder you know we in the interest of time we probably should move on to the next presentation um especially with some folks in the audience here who um are here to listen

[75:00] to that portion of the meeting so let's transition to that thanks so much Jackson for as always your very thorough presentations thank you I'll share my screen from roll please thank [Music] you all right um hi good evening thank you so much for having me I'm Darren Wagner senior landscape architect and project manager for this phase one of understanding the future of our recreation centers um I'd like to see this as an opportunity tonight to make sure that we're all clear about the process the outcomes um and why we're doing this in the first place um and also invite

[76:01] suggestions on how to make this process better as we move forward um so I'm going to go through some basic teaming just so you understand kind of how we're approaching this internally and externally and then spend some time on that purpose and need again to sort of give that background information that's available to us now and then walk us through what the process looks like in next steps um and then conclude with some opportunities for questions but um as before I'm also open to questions as they emerge so um I we'd like to to um I would like to start out just by saying that we are approaching this from an interdepartmental standpoint um you know we at person Recreation have a mission to support Recreation health and wellbeing for our community we're not so much in the business of maintaining facilities and structures and that is why um we're partnering really heavily with facilities and Fleet and we have Kristen here tonight um representing um that department and project managing from that uh side um we're also

[77:02] partnering closely with housing and Human Services the agw West Center at the East Boulder Community Center is an important compon component of that facility um and a lot of our services overlap as well as we talk about serving older adults which is one of our priority populations and so we have a series of teams set up and lots and lots of meetings but the reason why is because this is a complex project and we're trying to make sure that we're catching all of the opportunities and needs that are out there um and so we've set up various teams from across these departments um to guide us uh at all levels of the organization uh also want to make sure that we highlight our partnership with the bll Valley School District we know that the services that are rec centers um provide for them are incredibly important um and so we are working with them specifically around Aquatics um to understand what the demand for for pool

[78:00] Lanes look like um from their side so that we can move forward together and and plan uh in collaboration we have an amazing consultant team on board and in large part thank you to Kristen and facilities for leading this process um at this stage in this first phase of looking across the system of rec centers we're really focusing on our work with Perkinson well they're the prime consultant um from an architecture standpoint but we're also working closely with Ballard King you heard Jackson mention them so they have a really strong foundational knowledge about our system and what that looks like uh as well as councilman H hunsaker um from Aquatics another really well-known uh consultant kind of experts in Aquatics in the region so really strong team these other subs will come online once we start talking about the renovations at East um and so we're we're lucky to have such expertise um in terms of the project purpose and need why are we doing this I want to spend some time first starting out by

[79:01] saying that we again are um in the business of promoting health and wellbeing and these rec centers as a system across our city are absolutely vital to what we do um and we recognize that and I appreciate the comments in public in a public comment earlier about the social factors and the social benefits that come with these Gathering spaces es and so we look at Health from that total uh perspective that it's not just physical health but we're providing it really is um around this broader set of Community Values and these are themes that have emerged over years of deca Decades of Engagement with the community that that really emphasize that these the role of these recreation centers is again not just about physical health that it provides everything from um you know lifelong Wellness whether it's from youth to older adults as well as um uh universal access and Recreation for people with disabilities um we also know

[80:01] that equity and affordability is really Central to how the city runs its its process you just heard a good discussion about um uh about discounted fees and what that looks like and we're also Guided by Citywide um framework around sustainability and resilience and that so that plays in especially when we start talking about um what the renovations at East are going to start looking like and that'll come online here soon we're also just to say the obvious but this good governance piece is important as well um it's Central to the Citywide framework but it's important for us now that we are um able to recognize that for example we have not programmed maintenance at the levels that it needed to be in the in the past we want to make sure that we're sort of doing what we can as we look forward um to to plan for a a future where we can budget accordingly um again you've heard this many many times but the these the priority populations too that within all of those um values that we really try

[81:00] and think about the Recreation services that specifically serve these audiences and so as we think about moving through this process you'll see ways that we're trying to be intentional about specifically engaging uh these communities in understanding their voices and elevating those in the conversation so you know it's also you know again maybe obvious but also helpful to remember that it's not just cardio equipment and um and weights but there are so many other recreation activities that happen in these recreation centers and so part of what we're trying to understand at this point is what of all the things that you could possibly do at a Rec Center uh what activities are most important to the community across the city so that we can accommodate those as we think about the future part of the conversation too is that you know we do have we we do compare ourselves and explore what other peer agency are doing for a reason because we need to understand what are these emerging Trends and how are they

[82:00] being addressed in other communities um whether it's Esports or indoor tracks or competition facilities or field houses what are all what is the universe of potential um improvements across our system that we need to uh have an eye towards as we plan for the future of these centers when it comes to the facility side of it this is where I would always invite Kristen to share any other details that I may miss or answered questions more specifically but um we do know that from the facility side um these facilities are aging as a whole as a system um North and South were built in 73 and in 2002 North did have a renovation um but uh South has has not had that equivalent investment um East uh was built somewhat later is built in 91 but it is now at the point where it needs that kind of renovation um similar to what North receive um and so for for

[83:01] these reasons we're really starting um over the last number of years through a number of studies been able to identify that yes we do really need to invest in East it's still the the bones are good the structure is good it's still a wise use of public dollars to invest in that kind of renovation there whereas the structure at South not the services that we provide in South po but just the structure that folds the recreation center itself is failing and you'll see this example of the the pool repairs um but you know those are ongoing and there are a number of issues that um are difficult and expensive to maintain especially when you look at the square footage you know we know that South is a smaller facility but when you just look at per square footage how much are we spending on maintenance um it's it's nearly triple what we're spending at at north um meanwhile as I mentioned you know we have Citywide guidance that is encouraging us directing us to try and

[84:00] reduce emissions to try and reduce water use um and and move towards car carbon positive facilities it's an incredibly ambitious set of goals and it's something that we're beholden to try and do um within limited budgets and so um especially as it comes to the funding that has been approved to renovate East that'll be a large part of the conversation is how do we move towards those goals in that process but as we think about all the needs that are emerging in these budget conversations as Jackson just laid out um we can think about the the needs and the costs that are still outstanding uh at our recreation centers we then also have to lay that next to what uh outstanding maintenance uh needs are happening in our parks and then that's just one department and we know that we're one Boulder and so that's why we're having these broader conversations about that long-term Financial strategy with other departments with the city manager's office to understand what those other City needs are and how does

[85:00] the community want us to prioritize funding all of those so I'm going to move into that's the why that's so of why we have to do this and now I'm going to move into how we're trying to get through these conversations and part of it is again rooted in this sustainability equity and resilience framework um and you know I I don't think I can say it too many times that we know we're in this to really try and cultivate and provide this wide range of recreation opportunities for our community um it's front and center in the guidance that our our um city manager's office provides us um again supporting physical and mental health all of these things are really Central and we know that through a number um of past studies and planning efforts this is not an exhaustive list but it is um a highlighted list of studies that in planning documents that have been done to show for example that the um condition of South is such that uh an

[86:02] infusion a large infusion of cash to renovate the facility is not a wise use of Public Funding that we need if we're going to we fully intend to um provide Recreation services in South Boulder but that facility itself um is uh is it's pasted its useful life essentially and these past documents have um have have shown that and so as we think about what that means across our our system of three recreation centers and what do we what do we do about that and how do we um and uh design the renovations at East to accommodate these needs to the extent possible we've designed this sort of phase one um to try and get us to this point of a general needs assessment of our recreation centers across the city all three of them as a system um and part of that is understanding again the community priorities uh and you know

[87:02] what are the levels of use what is that supply and demand as Jackson mentioned earlier and then what are the projected Trends in Recreation and a lot of this this sort of first step is where this early engagement has has been um happening there's around sets of questions around that and I'll show that more in a second but again as as um Anna brought up earlier we're also need to compare ourselves to our peer agencies we have past studies that have done it in a number of ways but we're now interested in asking a slightly different set of questions to understand what kinds of amenities services and audiences do they um uh provide and serve in in their recreation centers um we also with our consultant team and the huge subc Consultants that are supporting them um that we we need to have an updated understanding of the building and site conditions to understand is really possible and what is not possible in these locations um we also need to lay that against expected

[88:00] funding levels um and and so that long-term Financial strategy starts to come in there um and then based on all of those based on what we want based on what is relatively feasible um it's this is also a chance to sort of um recalibrate what our desired levels of service are um and so we'll be looking at sort of General understandings of of what are what what are the side what is the nature of the facilities the amenities that we need to provide to support the community priorities um and how many people are we trying to serve um in that what are what are our goals um and then that's going to help us understand okay how can we serve those needs and where and then what's left over what's unmet uh and that set of unmet needs is also going to be accompanied by some general cost estimates High level order of magnitude cost estimates and some recommendations about how to close the funding gaps um

[89:00] and and how to how to address the gaps in Services as well um as with all of our processes this is never there's never one input to to inform these these um recommendations or decisions it's it's always a combination of the data and the research that's available the community engagement and the priorities and the values that are important um as as our existing policies and so that is the the three major inputs that inform all of our planning processes um and if you lay uh that that overall engagement process out in terms of how we intend to continue engaging the community um we've designed as we do with all of our our processes like this this idea of Windows of Engagement where we open the window and we say we're ready we want to hear we have so many questions for the community we need to understand X Y and Z and then there is always a time where we have to temporarily close that window so that we

[90:01] can uh analyze the feedback that we've gotten and come back in the next engagement window to affirm what we just heard and move it forward into the next step of the process and so that first window of Engagement um was done uh over a year ago when we went around to all of the centers um and just early listening what's important to you what do you love about the rec centers um and that's where a lot of those values that I shared earlier were affirmed that we heard a lot um so much about why these Center is are important in vital to our community um this past fall just recently uh the window of Engagement that closed at the end of September was about affirming those values and then prioritizing the types of indoor recreation activities our community is most interested in in seeing in our recreation centers this next window that's coming up is then about okay of those most important activities how can we start to accommodate those or continue accommodating those in our existing centers again as a system you know we

[91:02] we've used the example for um uh for North EX for example where the gymnastics facility the amenities and the services there are a magnet for that for that facility and um exceptional uh and so what okay so maybe gymnastics is more or less taken care of what other needs and where do those go of the the most important ones right um and so that'll help us develop some initial site programs all of that will then give us this opportunity to to develop some recommendations which in and of themselves is is um for for this phase one process um the the kind of final engagement window where we'll come back out and say of all everything that we've heard um here are these initial recommendations what do you think is this um an appropriate uh way to move forward into the future that's also when we have the chance then to bring on phase two which we've defined to be about the renovations at

[92:01] East specifically that are already funded um and that is also where um Tina Briggs who is another s landscape architect with uh uh BPR she is she will be the project manager for that phase and so you'll start to see her quite a bit more as we start to bring that conversation on um and that will continue uh through 25 and construction is anticipated to start in 26 um but of those unmet needs and of those um funding gaps that are identified that's really where this long-term Financial strategy starts to play in so that we're actually kind of ahead of the game in that regard that we're trying to inform that process and that and advocate for the for the Park and Recreation um issues that are important to the [Music] community another way to visualize the engagement process is is is the sort of inverted filter only because sometimes it helps to as we go through a process to start narrowing in and focusing in on

[93:02] the most important things um and so this is just another way to see those engagement Windows um and so again in this last engagement window we did a number of things to open up the conversations broadly we were at the what's up Boulder event which has opened the entire Community we had um interactive posters at each of the centers we had an online questionnaire that um had almost 1,800 responses um we met with Community organizations and were invited to a popup meeting with the South Boulder um neighbors um and um what when we start looking at this next engagement window now uh we'll have the opportunity to take what we've heard and start again sort of thinking about how to apply it across the system and so one of the given as I mentioned earlier at East will be this sort of De what we're saying is a deep energy retrofit to try and address these energy goals um but when we start to think

[94:00] about how we apply those recreation activities across the system for example you'll you'll hear more about um the full summary of what we've heard in this most recent window in November so you'll you'll get a more in-depth report then um but one of the things that's emerging not surprisingly is that um cardio strength training those things are fundamental and most important to the community and that is something that in you know should likely in all cases continue to be offered at all three centers in all three locations right um so that's kind of an easy one but then you know when we have this example about gymnastics so what are those other needs and whether it's swimming for example like where do we where can we provide the most capacity for that and what about these other things like an indoor track if that becomes something that the community continues to to be interested in can we provide it and where and so that'll be kind of a fun I got to say it'll be a fun opportunity um for

[95:00] community members to start playing and and sort of moving the game pieces around and helping us understand what is possible and what's not um and so that'll look like a number of things so in December we'll start doing what we call Micro engagements and that is with um our priority populations and that's instead of saying hey we're having a big public meeting come to us we go to them and wherever they are whether it's an age well Center and we speak to older adults um or whether it's expand participants at a program and we try and connect with them afterwards so we're going to try and Elevate those voices of those priority populations in December so that we can take that into a workshop in January that will then produce a um a set of posters that reflect what we've heard from all of those Comm those conversations back out to the community so um about mid January or so we'll we'll at the each of the centers have those

[96:00] posters out again with opportunities for anybody to come in and reflect and respond um to those ideas what that's going to help us produce is something that looks something like this so this is just an example diagram from a completely different project um but we'll come back out in the spring with versions of this for each of the centers which basic Bally will reflect again what activities are most most important to provide in each of these locations um and again this is the one way of starting to conclude phase one this for that systemwide look this will kind of be the opportunity to start rounding out those recommendations and pulling that needs needs assessment report together but then simultaneously as Tina and phase two come online our Consultants will by then based on input uh from the community have developed uh some design options or concepts for East

[97:02] specifically so again same thing these are examples from a entirely different Community um but they'll H have some ideas for us to think about um what is the site layout at East what are those options we can consider and what are the um activities and general floor plans that that um we need to start thinking about um and then again that will continue into the further design and construction process um as as part of that separate phase two here's that slide again so hopefully everybody has this memorized by now um but as the the details and the timing of this come online Jackson Ally will be point on on this but it's the process that we're doing with this needs assessment um is to inform these conversations so that we're ready to say okay uh again of these funding gaps here's how we recommend closing them whether it's through a bond initiative or other other strategies that tie in with the rest of the

[98:01] city so I know that's a lot just last reminders about next steps um will come back in November with a fuller report of what we've heard in this most recent engagement window like I said it was a lot of feedback so we're sifting through all that um and then we'll open that next engagement window back up for uh December and January and then Analyze That in February and come back to you in March so um that's the overview the questions that we have for you again tonight or um what questions do you have about the process have we not been clear about anything is there anything to clarify um and then do you have any recommendations for improving especially the engagement process to make sure this is what it needs to be J so these I heard a lot about East Boulder obviously that's where the money has been what refunded before but through all of these things that we talked about tonight and all of the questions of people are all of the community

[99:00] engagement if everybody says save South Boulder save South Boulder save South Boulder we still don't have the money for that right that's correct that's just where we're at yes so let me just I want to connect a few Dots here Sunny asked earlier have we asked city council for money for for a building it doesn't work like that if if the way I've summarized this project is we're asking that we've heard the community for a long time we want more we want newer better and and in other communities the way that works and what we're about is okay what do you want tell us we're listening now in this project we've listened throughout various discreet projects on pools on courts we're talking about the facilities what do you want and then we'll cost that and then we expect a community conversation about do are you would you like to pay for that because there is not funding to build a replacement Recreation Center a new pool in the current budget that's the conversation we see coming in the runway that is the longterm Financial strategy um we are it is a lot of work and I am so excited the conversation is

[100:00] happening it's time because I do want to say too like as I was looking at the fees and I'm thinking about you're talking about indoor track like an individual monthly fee for the our parks and R system is exactly the same as the Y it's the same exact cost it's the new cost it's $72 or whatever it is they have three I can go to three different wise I get free Pilates free exercise classes indoor track indoor outdoor pool like all of those things so why are you I guess in increasing fees and talking about shutting down rexers are you trying to push people towards private or other entities because like I mean in looking at what we have going on here and what the wise offering there's no question I would just I would utilize the wise it's they're better services at the same exact cost but technically my tax dollars are funding some of the parks and R or I mean a good portion of the parks and you know wreck facilities yet I'm not seeing any benefit from that so I'm sure you understand the

[101:00] community's concern with funding and the state of things especially with the rec centers because they're so important when I used to live in Superior I came up to rle the rec for gymnastics now my kids are out of that age and so now we're as a family we're trying to figure out where to go and I wouldn't come to our Parks and Rec Department based on the fees and what's what's offered and the issues that we have with tennis and swimming and things like that so talking about going to city council again like at what point will we just start to massively lose people that are you know and then building housing and all of the people were trying to stuff into Boulder right now which I think is very important but without having Parks and Recreation services that's this is just a failing model all together so how do we figure out how to do this and maybe it's a bond issue maybe the community paids for it but that is frustrating and I don't know if that'll pass this time around I mean and if that doesn't pass and we lose a such a large asset and South Boulder I mean there's we I I think we got to get more creative in in thinking about these

[102:02] options that's negative that's really no I have a lot of follow up there um on a lot of things you said some as an individual customer and a user but I just want to be clear what we are doing here is the model cities have used for recreation centers Lewisville chose to tax Exel for a major facility renovation and fund the operations and then that's you know that was the conversation they had in I don't know the exact year but just to be clear like we haven't had that conversation in 30 years and so I'm very glad to be having it and the facilities you talked a lot about the combination between facilities and parks and rack does any of that funding for maintenance come are we talking about is there a portion of funding that comes from the facilities team yes yes so um facilities operates um 74 buildings throughout the city and we maintain the rec centers we have a certain budget each year for the rec

[103:02] center for emergency maintenance for just you know regular preventative maintenance we have that all legended out last question you said the you said the words uh we fully intend wait we fully intend to provide recreational opportunities in South Boulder but wa what if so if that facility fails how do you fully intend to provide recreational opportunities and so yeah so we're working through um lots of different options um and if we decide we could probably come back to the pren with more information about about South um we're trying again to look Citywide so that we can understand and plan for the possibility of some significant failures there we're also looking at how can we keep the process moving forward in terms of getting ahead of again what

[104:00] those site constraints are even just within that property so that if there were a replacement facility what is it that would even be possible you know so we're we're asking questions and we're looking through what's possible as we move that forward um yeah and I'll just add that statement has tended to clarify we have no intention of divesting in South Boulder there have been rumors that the city's just walking around are you know washing our hands of South Boulder that is not our intent and that's what we're trying to clarify there that well yes the replacement is not funded again we're embarking on this work we're engaging with the long-term Financial strategy to ask the community if it would like to fund a replacement but when we say we fully intend to provide it and we sure hope the community chooses to pay for it we don't recommend divesting in South Boulder we don't think that's what's right for the community for all the reasons we've talked about about the system and the values of Parks and Recreation okay and thank thank you I mean the community engagement and the way you guys reach out and all the different things that you're doing to to find out what the community wants is is wonderful so thank

[105:00] you for hard sure any questions yeah I have a question so I love that the conversation's happening but a lot of the feedback I've been hearing is that the the questionnaire um wasn't really getting to the root of the the issue or for example like if you said to people who go to to let's say south bould or wck what do you love about south bould or wck like nobody would say oh I love the child care because there isn't any and a lot of people don't go there who would go there if there were other amenities and they're not being asked so I just wonder how we can really ask the right questions to a broader population and you know I I just feel like we're not really so far what I've seen and from what I've heard from other people I don't feel like we're really getting information that is going to push this forward in the direction

[106:02] that's really going to meet the needs of the community yeah I I I appreciate that and you know in full disclosure we we did in in our follow-up email acknowledge that there were some technological issues with the survey as well the questionnaire so um we worked on the back end to try and fix everything we possibly could and um it just didn't work with some browsers so um the other thing we want to recognize I think what you're also speaking to is the design of the questions um this process is meant to be iterative and so we by no means is that questionnaire the only input into the development of these recommendations or these site programs it was really just sort of a a next step and so nothing in that feedback will be definitively used in a specific way um it's really again that funnel that I was showing you know about that's exactly yeah this one right it's all

[107:01] these things that have to go into this and so even just within that Community engagement bubble there's so many different inputs and conversations that go into it okay Dar will you also go back to the inverted funnel yeah and I just wanted the the questions you're just supposing about the south Bolder Rec Center were asked in the first round of Engagement so then the big big wide and that summary is online it was included I don't know if in this month's P packet um the so the early listening the value for the facilities that is online and it it gets to exactly your question so that was the first big broad question it's been asked and so that is still a reference point and so I just it's just a matter who who actually saw it sure you know when I I I feel like I represent Elementary School families like not a lot of us are are even reading the email from the school let alone from The Ref Center like there's so much to filter through and so if you're trying to figure out who wants this rec center and who's going to come there and what amenities we want there

[108:00] has to be a way to reach families who are I mean I haven't been to that rec center in 10 years because my kids are 10 years old there's no child care there's no programming for them so I would if I wasn't on prab I wouldn't have any idea this is happening and everybody that I talk to when I go to you know the elementary schools like they don't know this is happening this is totally beyond the bandwidth of what most parents with young families can can process so it's a huge population and it's a huge population that's going to be in South Boulder for the next 10 years so I just I'm concerned I don't know I don't have an answer yeah but I'm concerned that we need to really focus on getting that demographic this involved and and asking them those questions and I don't know if we partner with bbsd yeah or there's a way to get to that group I I just pulled this slide back up because I also wanted to emphasize something that um because self isn't the replacement of self is

[109:01] not funded all this initial phase is meant to do is to at least capture the vision of the community for now at a high level at a high level so that it can get funded ideally in a bond measure or some other strategy right once that happens we would then as we're doing with East come right back to the community and spend way more time with the community at as as a whole I mean it's a Citywide facility it obviously has a lot of value for the neighborhood but it is a Citywide asset but we would be right back having this kind of conversation where we then we get to get right back into the more details about oh wait tell us more tell us more and so by no means is this the last chance to capture the vision of South it's really just meant to kind of galvanize that funding conversation I just have a question maybe this is a little bit more about his history that wasn't around last year but I just to me

[110:02] like we've got the South B the rec center was built in 1973 hasn't been renovated at all was in danger of failing closing permanently we've known about this and yet we're prior seems like we're prioritizing the renovations at East because we have the money for it but to me like priority should be figuring out what to do itself first so we don't end up with a facility that's closed for 3 years while we're doing renovations at East and trying to get a bond measure how did how did the East become a priority over South yeah and and Kristen or Ali F Fe way and if you look at the overall scorecard that was developed in the facilities plan in 2021 um East is it's just a little bit better than South like it's it's at a point where it needs that inv investment in order to sustain it for another 20 30 40 years but can you table it for 5 years or is that is it that like we

[111:00] seeing significant failures at East that we have been seeing at South and if we don't invest in south or in the East right now it will become another South facility wise okay and and it's also the funding has been voter approved also so it's you know that that's been identified as where that funding should go towards I also want to correct a narrative that I'm hearing that I think is um it's inaccurate and it's I just don't think it helps there was a renovation of the south in 1999 um and an effort was made at that time to help it serve the community better I think the reality is is one between the condition and the design it's it's those two things together if you use the term home buyers use when they look at a home they want to remodel e still had really has really good bats it's a candidate for a remodel South does not not only does it not have good bones from an infr Tru pers perspective it does not meet modern needs from an

[112:01] accessibility standpoint on multiple levels if you are a Community member who has a caregiver you have nowhere to go where you can have private space to um change an adult with a disability or support them in their Recreation needs if you are an adult who has any kind of Mobility limitation you are having to walk into a facility get a key walk back out to a facility to use an elevator that was macgyvered on you know at some point later in the design and so I hear and I I want again folks in the room folks listening I work at that facility on The Daily for 5 years early in my career it is a special place it's there special folks in the community but it really is time to be planning for the future there um but then sorry there was another part of the notion I wanted to correct we have not g we are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep this facility alive I don't know what the total is in the last five years but it is hundreds of thousands of dollars we are not trying to to again divest or have the facility closed that is not our intention we've probably spent close to $600,000 in the last five years in the

[113:02] last five years just trying to maintain a subpar service I hope it doesn't have to close I mean I hope that we can get this I love the system plan I think it's a great opportunity to take a look at everything and you know really you know do it right this time with these three centers but I would really hate to see it close for for a number of years why we're trying to figure this out and there's no money for it and then the community's left with nothing at that point you know I just I really hope that we can you know just get it along and and at the same time be working towards this bigger plan but I mean at the end of the day if if a bond measure passes and we replace the facility this is probably way too early considering all the plans that have to go into it but that would have to close and be torn down and rebuilt right we're talking about no it wouldn't okay that's yeah potentially we could rebuild in a different location on that same site it's a lot of times exactly like

[114:01] the school run got a couple questions this uh I'm going to start with a operational question um I noticed that the I think it's like the solar power heating system or that that was removed recently because was not working it has been non-operational for years okay uh it it does not serve any of the needs that it originally intended to and we removed it because it was a better investment to remove it than have to weed around it fair enough it costs a lot of money for us to read around it sorry I should have started by thanking everyone for the extra work of engage and I appreciate that all of you show up at the meeting in our neighborhood the other week um uh but I think this important to remember that the engagement windows for the neighborhood does not close um so you know when we remove the heating system maybe that's an opportunity to

[115:01] put a sign up and says hey here's what's going on and no this does not purage the closing of this building this is it's it's remind that the community is always looking yeah and I we had signage about yeah and it's not I want to correct it's it has nothing to do with the heating of the building it was a solar thermal heating system that was used to heat the pool water way back in the day and it it did not perform the way that we wanted it to um and so it's been offline for years so it has nothing to do with uh the domestic water or the heating of any of the water at the facility right and I just my point is just that it's important that we remind the community of that right yes at a time when the building under very full scrutiny yes um thank you appreciate the answering um do we know is it too soon to know or

[116:02] do we know how long the use bold renovation may take so um design we will fully move forward with design in 25 hopefully we'll be through design Perman in 25 and um we can start construction as early as early 26 and depending on how long it would take to do that renovation knowing that we are going to have to phase that to make sure that we're keeping as many amenities as we can open during construction um it could be a year year and a half of construction so mid 27 with the intent to try to keep it open during yes parts of it it would have rotate yeah um okay well thanks yes ahead and just so you guys know we are working with

[117:01] interviewing contractors right now and then as one of our major questions is how do we phase this construction to keep the entities open for the community um and we're working with contractors that have done this many times in many different communities we're really excited to be working with these contractors um I just want because I think it's interesting how you just said um the window of Engagement does not close and so I think that because we did get a couple of emails from people who were like well then you know window of Engagement is closed so I mean and I just read through I'm reading through the um project overview of on the future of recreation center page and it does say technically that the window of Engagement is now closed as we worked to analyze your input and maybe just add an extra line says if you have additional input feel free to reach I mean they can reach out to the prab or I mean that's maybe a given but maybe if you just say it then people won't necessarily think

[118:00] that it's like they they've stopped having the opportunity to give input you know this slide up here could be helpful what's that putting the slid for example up on the website to say the next window will next window will open or I mean but it isn't ever really closed because they can reach out to any of you at any point or or me or the pre or they can we do this this model of Windows engagement has been really helpful for a couple of reasons because at some point we do have to keep moving forward so a question the process is iterative it builds on itself we have to be able to move forward the team has to have the time to do the work right and so of we get emails all day every day about all the things when we're on a project like this it really is helpful to stick to the windows of Engagement and of course people can send questions we try to funnel them to the windows of Engagement so that we can also do the work and so that we can keep moving forward I I did yeah and it does kind of trying to funnel everything into a

[119:00] specific time frame so people are more engaged at a certain time well and also so that we have time I appreciate I remember in a meeting Eric referenced the federal model the federal government um I think actually does this incredibly well and that when they open a window of Engagement and then they close it there is an online very clear record of every single comment they got and how they addressed it and how they responded you have to have time to do that work right and I think that's that's a nice model and that's what we're aspiring to do with these windows of Engagement I actually think Mark and Darren started piloting it over an open space and it's it's been adopted because it does allow us the time to be more responsive otherwise um I wish I could think of a metaphor that was going to be helpful but it's just there does need to be time to close the door and do the work and keep moving forward but to the point daren's point earlier it's iterative and there will be additional opportunities to keep building with us my point wasn't just wasn't that you should stop listening or never stop listening my point was more that like the public is always interested sure

[120:01] absolutely always looking for my feedback um S I have one other question we met the group that we met with in South Boulder um I haven't heard anything from them since um have you all we we did and we're gonna meet with them to just make sure that they understand this process and that's the next step yeah yeah so Darren so just to um go back so you think really like next spring we're having a pretty good clear idea conceptually what we're going to be looking at is that the idea what what's going to happen at East we'll know what's going to happen at East have a better idea what the future of of the other centers are in terms of and at a high level so just again so we'll have this for all three locations okay and then we'll have more detailed options to consider at East well we have like budgets or rough order of magnitude just cost ranges yes yeah so Is it feasible to get a bond measure uh next November for this I mean the the

[121:02] calendar yes it is it is yes and we're we're designing the part of this inter departmental effort is to keep in the loop so that we don't miss opportunities to make that happen yeah I think that should be something we should shoot for I really hate to see it push another year and then it's like you know design struction it could just it seems like priority I was wondering who writes aond measure so I I can I can speak I was a part of the early versions of the community culture it's now a different name Community culture resilience safety I don't know anyway years ago I was a part of it and at the time I you know um Jackson may know more we can let you know more about what the engagement process for that will look like but when I was involved before it had a lot of community input like we're doing now but it was across all of the projects um you know sort of all the city needs um and

[122:03] then those recommendations went to council and the city manager's office city attorney's office um is then in the business of crafting that language and then Council votes for it to go on the ballot once it's on the ballot we as staff cannot advocate for it um and it's up to vote at that point um so in the interest of time just want to move us forward but I think this is a really great conversation I would love in the next um uh update from the Department like just a paragraph that describes the process of how to get a bond measure on the ballot um just because I feel like that's a question that we all have and that's more of just a you might just want to consult with the city attorney on that one just like to get a very brief brief like paragraph on like this is how it's done and you know we don't need any promises about when it's going to go on the ballot and when it's going to be proposed but it be under it' be

[123:00] helpful for us to know as Community Advocates like how that's possible yeah and what role prb can play yeah you know giving recommendations to council I mean that's kind of our role here and if we really really think we need to get this Bond measure moving then I think that's where we need to give a memo or something directly to the council saying this is really important in our perspective and should be a priority because there's a lot of other city as we saw uh needs right so I 100% agree with you and it would be helpful for us to understand as a PR what the process is so that we can time when we communicate that to council um because I actually do think that's a good candidate for providing something um that is that is very important I just want to note that I heard the request for November I don't think we can commit to that for a couple reasons one your meeting is moved up a week because of the week of no school and Thanksgiving holiday so your meeting on the 18th which means our de team's deadline

[124:00] because of the Veterans Day holiday on the 11th is the 7th and I just can't promise that but we can promise it when we give the long-term Financial strategy update if that works November is just try that's fine okay thank you just so long as we don't lose our window as a board to provide the the Val need to to council if we decide to do that um great so uh that is the final presentation of the night from staff thank you so much for your presentations tonight that was great really great um engagement and discussion from the board uh the next is the Matters from the board can I just ask one question Mo on since we have facilities here is there any reassurance I can offer um community members about what links will go to to keep South open before East is done like there's just a lot of questions the the the understanding is it could close tomorrow or it could stay open for five years but what can is there any Assurance or anything you can offer that I can pass

[125:00] on to people to help them understand what what we're yeah what decisions are being made and why so we're working on a strategy right now um to figure out the needs that we need to work or to the the maintenance needs that need to happen to keep the center working um we are going to need City council's approval because we will be going against their dire direction of funding in a building that is not um going to receive a renovation or you know it's it's not viable it's passive end of life so we will have to talk to council about this um but we're working on that strategy right now and we are working on getting numbers of the items that we know are going to to fail before used to open so we are being proactive with those items and basically just to add on to that it's sort of

[126:00] trying to Envision okay if a bond were successful if then we bring on a consultant and then we go through design and then we go like all that takes a lot of years and so we're trying to back out of that to understand what that total cost may be to to live along see our return on investment as small as it might be because we're never going to see the return on investment itself that we invest now we want to do it as soon as possible so we want to be able to get those numbers together so that we can you know have the RT for you know prob years or you know have the line reped I I heard that with the elk cool closing they were actually renting a boiler over there or leasing a boiler is that something you guys looked at for sell have looked at a lot of different things we in a lot of our facilities it not just re centers but all of our city facil we are purchasing parts on

[127:01] eBay because it's that old if you appreciate you're asking the question if you feel like it would be helpful in presenting that recommendation to council to have a member of the prb come and speak at a meeting and say this is why we support this recommendation please do keep us in the loop because that would be a really good opportunity for us to communicate what the public is communicating to us very clearly that they want this place to be there as long as possible absolutely we'll definitely do that and like Darren said earlier we have multiple meetings a week about these projects so we're we're in constant communication great thank you okay um so we have one item that we have to discuss on Matters from the board and then I'll open up to the board to share their thoughts uh on matters that pertain to uh parks's business but the one item we need to discuss is whether we have a December

[128:00] meeting um and my understanding from uh the department is that we have no business to address directly at the December meeting and that is a difficult time of year to um get a quorum and also to um get things prepped in time from the Department um and we can certainly have the meeting if someone feels strongly about it but my recommendation um would be to not have the meeting um but I'm would love to just open it up with discussion I would like to motion that we cancel the December meeting okay in the interest of time unless somebody has some very reason for needing to have it or wanting to have it I will second that motion okay has I mean honestly like I I feel like we have very few opportunities to converse as a group because of this you

[129:01] know the rules and we have a meeting on the agenda uh we had a small study session you know last week I don't know I I feel like there's a lot to talk about um and we have this public meeting and we can um I don't know I I my vot it's the 16th of December it's not really near the holidays um I think there there were a lot of topics uh that we had pushed for the study session but didn't make it on the agenda then um I you know I just feel like we have very limited opportunities as a group to work together and here's an opportunity that we could use and so that's why I would support a December meeting and pick some of the other topics and maybe with minimal staff presentations I mean if there's like a lot of it is you knowu staff but I think as a entity we have we we plenty to talk about you know in you know in a open public meeting is that

[130:01] possible though to do it like that like or does it have to have this very specific agenda and follow I I I don't know how the agenda Works Al just having an open meeting with no topics or discussion item clarified I think is problematic because the community doesn't know what to expect and whether they should be listening to a key conversation and so I think that part of it is concerning what I heard Eric proposes perhaps that you duplicate the study session model basically duplicate the study session model from last week on some other topics I think as sign specific topic yeah if we if we have maybe there's not a need I don't know like that's my own opinion because I feel like I have limited opportunity to to talk about these I think are pretty important matters effec you know and and we can push it to January we can but like we don't we don't even have enough time in these meetings to really get into the meat of some of these issues because I feel like we're trying to move through all this stuff and then so I don't know but that's that's my do tend

[131:01] to agree with Eric like it seems like even this evening we've you know we've really wanted to maybe express our opinions more fully on this why the city hasn't given Alli more money right in 30 years like how long we've gotten bonds approv TR Capital operating funds haven't increased um but you know like is that a topic that we want to compose a memo as a group to S city council and like you're right we don't have opportunity to discuss fully and maybe this is something that we can put on the agenda for December maybe we only have an hour and a half meeting instead of three hours but yeah or how we can be more effective as a group that's what I worry about that we're like you know have we ever taken a look back at the prep and say how can we be more affected instead of I feel like we're receiving a lot of information and our shelles are very defined they're pretty small we don't have a lot of shells but um I don't know I mean I think I'm struggling a little bit to you know to understand my role honestly and I think that um you know I think last week's

[132:01] study session was very helpful to see what's actually written about what we should be doing and are we are we really doing it you know that's why my question is about the recommendations to council are we really given recommendations and how do we do that you know and how do we propose something if it's a bond measure we party you know that's you know one opportunity there okay I would agree that I would love to have more time to talk but I will be breaking my perfect attendance record on that day because I have a teaching commitment so I will not be able to be there on that day fortunately but I I would [Music] love I can make it so we have a motion in a second so we have to vote will you have a quum I won't I definitely won't be there no what else um let's let's step back for a second so if we're gonna talk

[133:01] about if we're going to extend the study session that we don't have an agenda for that right now um but we technically could um if we're going to talk about the nuts and bullets of like providing feedback to city council um we don't have like a specific like item in front of us right now that needs to be communicated to council like a dollar amount sorry like a dollar amount to request or oh or just like you know if we want to specifically put in writing to council that we really want something um we have a mechanism right well we we do we we we do we what we can do is we can as a board come together and vote and decide that we want to communicate a message to council and we can do it through a resolution yeah or a letter um but we would have to agree on the content of that and then delegate somebody to write it um and then we would have to come back together in a

[134:00] special meeting or a regular meeting to actually approve it um so it's going to be a two meeting process um feel like that was very effective when and was not effective at all like we spend a lot of time I spent a lot of time on it and I feel like it was just like throwing sand in the air kind of like well that's the topic well how do how do we make these of course respond is more effective you know are they regular more regular on these things or well the last time we did well we do the annual letter um and I don't know how they consider them or whether they do I my presumption is they do um I wish they would respond right um but my assumption is that they do consider them we did send a resolution to council several years ago regarding something that was happening with the reservoir and they definitely considered that um and so we know that from that experience they do at least read and you know sometimes respond to what we've done but my my kind of my hangup with

[135:00] Gathering um on December 18th or 16th to to talk about these potential Concepts is it does take a lot of Staff time to um coordinate a meeting it does require us to convene and actually someone's got to make the agenda um and right now we don't have an agenda it's like a potential agenda um so we could potentially um you know during the agenda setting meeting we're going to have like this week or something we could talk about some potential topics for a potential meeting um but I would rather let staff know now like whether we're going to have that meeting in December just so they can plan for it um even a study session meeting I mean in order to put the study session together that was like three months of Bernie and I meeting consistently in order to make sure that we had everything we needed plus conversations with Ally in order to make it happen so the concept of it is good it's just it's not that easy to do you know and I would say like when we do

[136:00] have a point when we're going to provide like we want to provide feedback to council I think we could have like an in- meeting training that day like here's how we do this um I think that we could make that very purposeful um rather than like convening to talk about like what we might be doing in the future um just to make it a little bit more pragmatic I'm wondering Ally like what your thoughts about um tbling this like what are the impacts of like tbling this for our agenda setting discussion and then actually voting in November versus um voting now like what the I [Music] mean what I you're asking can you delay the decision to have a December meeting or wondering would it be very meaningful to staff to know today whether we're having a December meeting or can we table this for November I mean it'd be one thing off the list which would be nice and you can table it and talk about it in November and determine if you'd have the only thing I would note is if you do need any support from staff in

[137:02] numbers or data or whatever that our our bandwidth is so very limited now through the end of the year as we're trying to get projects off and in so like the sooner we know that the better I'll be able to say if that's feasible or not maybe a better idea would be to set up because you know we know we're going to have at least three openings that are going to get reappointed starting in March maybe we set up I'm assuming you're going to reapply and you'll still be on the so I'm considering you in this process um but uh then maybe we schedule it in November we schedule the next study session so we get that extra meeting in in the spring you know and then we can do the study session can be partial board Effectiveness because we'll have at least three new board people on so then we might lose December but we'll add one in and then gives us some time to plan for that yeah well you guys tell me I mean you guys worked on the agenda for the study session were there other I mean was it hard to pick

[138:02] the topics or was there a list or was I mean yeah like we sent out kind of what everyone corespond with Rosa we brought it back we talked but took us a meeting to tell everybody what we thought and everybody gave their input and then we had to put together the agenda and then we had work with Ally to make sure that we had the right staff in place for it that they were available for that study session you know what I mean yeah yeah I don't want to make I don't really want to make more work for the staff like I don't think that's that's not my point here but like I thought if there was I didn't really realize that the study session was going to be staff still presenting to us I thought it was mostly in you know as an entity the Prem it was a study you know I didn't it was but yeah in order for us to pick topics yeah it was hard okay yeah it just takes it might be better to P push it and then just make sure we have it scheduled so we get that extra meeting in it just happens once we have all the new members on then go through the board Effectiveness again so I think what I'm hearing from you and I by the

[139:00] way I think I I think I agree with you like you're wanting to like put these discussions into action little bit yeah right um okay so then I guess is there a way that we can use our time in December that's you know it is scheduled uh we could skip it but it is scheduled like is there a way that we can use that time to either do that or more directly understand how to do that is that fair that's fair yeah what if we made it do we have to be in person what if we made it like a zoom meeting that was just strictly to discuss study session topics for April I mean is that possible then it makes it a little easier on everybody to be available and then we can kind of just work that out I don't know so I don't know I'm still new here and kind of like the strategy for like I feel like it needs to more of like a one two with the recommendation because like we delivered the one and then there was like just silence so I feel like there needs to be some type of followup to get like force a response from Council

[140:00] like put them make them go on the record saying like we heard this and this is our response well they're not going to do that um they they can do whatever just to be real like they're they're they if we send them something that they did not ask for they have discretion to respond to it or not um we can't but if you show up you can't like get it on the council agenda or show up to public comment or some some way of like just having more presence and bringing more weight to this do we have precedence over people who make public com like I If we go in there as a prab is that do we have to like register for open comment and get chosen or do we have do we have precedence because we're on a Advisory Board um precedence is that the precedent you know what I mean yeah priority thank you yeah um we I don't know the answer to the question but my assumption is that if we're part of an agenda item where we're part of the

[141:01] presentation itself okay then we would have priority if we just show up as you know a member if we vote say like send Eric to the council meeting to read a statement that's part of public comment we just are in line to agenda I think we're confusing a couple of things so like we have we have the study session we just had one we'll have one some point again next year there's also the letter from pra which is something that they requested I leave for in the past they have as part of their Retreat so this Council had a retreat in April this time to set their two-year work plan they've done that I don't know that they're going to be asking for board and commission um input because their work plan is set and so I I don't I haven't heard anything I don't know if they're doing a midyear retreat so if they'll be doing a retreat in q1 of of 25 um so I'm not sure what that opportunity is going to look like I would I certainly cannot speak for city

[142:01] council but I would encourage you to First figure out what it is you want to communicate to them before you figure out how because what I believe what I if I were to been listening tonight these are funding conversations and the long-term Financial strategy is coming and so to to speak about it ad hoc they're going to say okay let me put that in my file for when we talk about the long-term Financial strategy right and so it it might be helpful to see that timeline and information that I think is it January Jackson we said we'd be bringing that to them and and I I am I don't know but I would Suppose there are going to be opportunities for board engagement throughout that project and so I believe those Avenues might be created for you without you having to go through these mechanisms that you're exploring and so I appreciate the urgency I I very much appreciate the interest in funding something we care deeply about and so um well I think we need to be advocates for the park and recck department on your behalf or you

[143:00] know on our constituents behalf because like you know and I think collectively we need to go to the council and say hey there's a lot of competing Bond measures there's a lot of needs in this city and we really think that you know we need to we should focus on these rec centers you know yeah and what I heard tonight was that there's there could be a potential opportunity for us to say something to council specifically about the bond measure and how it's really an important thing for this community based on what we've heard I don't think that that's like there's urgency around that at this moment because we don't have that we don't even know yeah right we don't know what it is yeah so if if we were to provide feedback on something to council I think that would be it yeah um and that is something that we could probably talk about during the meeting where we actually do it where we figure out what the language is and then we come back and vote on whether we approve it yeah makes sense so I I personally even with this discussion um taking into consider consideration everybody's comments I

[144:00] personally do not see a purpose um for the December uh meeting um and I I still would would vote to to not have it um but but I do think we need to to vote on it because there seems to be some um it's actually a decision we need to make um and I think there should be clarity from staff um or to staff about whether we're going to do this meeting sounds to me like if we delay it to November we might not even get like have staff availability if we decide in November to do it so I think we should take it the vote today before this meeting is over so there's a motion on the table that I made you seconded it um the opposite but it doesn't matter okay sorry you you made the motion I second that you are correct um I would say let's go to every single board member and get a yes or no um so I'll start with you motions to cancel or no yes yeah yes means no meeting in December I'm gonna say yes no

[145:01] meeting in December because I can't be there and I honestly hate to miss it and I feel like it would be better off if we had a little bit more clarity on what we're want to discuss yeah yeah okay Jenny yes to cancel Eric yes to cancel yes to cancel yes to cancel yes got go thank you everybody so much thank you so much for that Dialogue on that that was really good um okay so no meeting in December um the next meeting is November 18th and then the next meeting after that will be in January and we'll um try and capture all this stuff at our agenda setting Mee yeah we could add to the agenda setting like that early spring study session I think that would be really helpful yeah I mean I heard both Eric and sunny say a study session earlier in your tenure would be more help doing it later yeah only have one yeah during a a strategic plan when

[146:00] we're developing the BPR plan there were four study sessions in one year just around the plan so that's the other thing is that as we get into the long-term Financial strategy at the future of Rec we I mean planning board meets till midnight so that's another option your meetings could get longer we notice that I'm kidding because there is such a significant drop off and effectiveness I like that this board likes to be done when it does like we tend to lose um but I will note that yeah more meetings happens when there are meting projects like the long-term Financial strategy and future irq I I hope the board is willing because I see that need coming Jackson's shaking his Headly like it's coming but Jen and I were planning the study session like there everybody had a lot of topics that they were very interested in all of them I think are very important to the city and this department and okay we chose two and there's you know six others that we could T if you want to reshare those with me they are lost somewhere in my inbox if you want to send them I can as our team builds the runway in 25 we can

[147:01] see where they align with projects and where they may not if they're completely ad hoc we can talk to you about what that might look like but if they are aligned with our work and the plan I can show you and weave them in because we're building the 20 buck so if you want to reshare that one of the things still burning on my is that you know where are we encampments you know and yeah you know I don't I like an update on that process and what that means and you know and part of part of our role is to ensure that we're doing a good job in maintaining our parks and you know and honestly when I go down the creek it's it's hard for me to say you know count tense and I I I I don't think just avoiding that topic is good I'd like to understand the different sides of it and what are what options are and what the current city policy is on that stuff that's definitely on a list yeah and I guess after tonight's discussion the other topic that I would add to the list is like what's your dream budget like what would you ask for it's in the BPR plan okay great so it's in like it's

[148:00] not it's it's in there right the unfunded needs we were just talking it's outlined on page 52 46 the chart yeah I mean it's in there right I assume that you have like you know how that money would be used and like how it would decrease feed of the reservoir and whatever else it does not say that it would decrease fees it's around where we see gaps so for um Capital it's around just taking if taking care of what we have and then what it would cost to add the amenities the community wants for operations it's allowing just to just to because cost escalation is outpacing revenues it's to continue what we're doing so if we want to add Services that's additional funding okay well I'll just say I went for a walk with the council person this week and and their their message to me was like make sure parks and W asks for more money because I can't just give it to yeah so I mentioned earlier the city manager budget process right like no department

[149:00] head goes to city council and asks for money there's a city-wide budget synthesis process um but the BPR plan has our unfunded needs filled out very clearly um are there any other oh sorry I was just going to say and it also said that without additional funding we will have to reduce services and so that's you know when that plan was accepted it was um both an excitement because it's really good work but also sad because it codified the fact that we do not have enough money to take care of to continue doing what we're doing oh I mean we have aging aging infrastructure here and we're getting passed up by our community surrounding communities and that's what people come to me they're like how can why do I have to drive over here to use a pool in a smaller committee this is a well I mean we have this you know holders is like the wealthy community you know why is it that I wish we why is our pools faing you know like why are we closing these things I just don't want to have the community pay for it like bond is fine I just I feel like oh gosh it's just too much where do you think the funding should come I mean we've kind of talked about that before like

[150:00] some sort of fundraising you know that's not thing that was on our list like we haven't done that well I don't think in funding big capital projects donors here I don't think we've tapped our donors iner and maybe you know I have a friend who does fundraising for the Dairy Center she's like people are not that generous here you know I don't know you know it's like you would be surprised but like in certain Community they are they can fund entire and maybe this player but again it's trying to figure out how to Great test right we they are going to have three capital campaigns one for courts one for Primos and one for North Park all underfunded but I mean we I went to the police banquet and they the gala and they raised $500,000 in three hours you know so I was like oh God people were just throwing just also if we were to talk about our Capital needs that's nothing yeah right we could raise that much too and it would allow us to do some operation you don't build pools with 500 no no but in three hours that's pretty good you know I mean just saying like there's ways that they found and maybe the foundations aren't the way to go but like how I mean not that we want Google South Boulder rec center but

[151:01] like can't we find large corporations you know Tesla South Boulder Rec Center I don't know they've got $20 million to throw in there so I I don't know so I would also just say that like in closing I believe that Boulder had a lot of facilities and Parks whether it's full schols or whatnot before a lot of surrounding communities and so those you know were around a lot earlier they're aging and these other communities that are newer and their populations grew in the 90s and early 2000s you know they then you know have built those things more recently with their um growing tax revenue and they also have had Bond issues and so issued and and passed and so theyve built the facility so I think that we're now as a at the place where we need to replace and renew um because we were there first and our our facilities are just older it's just a timing it's a timing thing and but we were there first and so now it's our

[152:01] turn to ask the community for um um you know an ability to pay for something new so um that's my feeling about it uh all right so any other comments before we adjourn okay uh we are adjourned thank you so much great meeting