October 8, 2025 — Landmarks Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:00] Renee, when's the route? Take it away. The Landmarks Board meeting is called to order, the October Landmarks Board Meeting. Welcome to October 8th, 2025 Landmarks Board Meeting. It's 6.01 PM. Marci, will you review the virtual meeting decorum? Yes. The city has engaged with community members to co-create a vision for productive, meaningful, and inclusive civic conversations. This vision supports physical and emotional safety for community members, staff, and board and commission members, as well as democracy for people of all ages, identities, lived experiences, and political perspectives. More about this vision and the project's community engagement process can be found online through this link. The following are examples of rules of decorum found in the Boulder Revised Code and other guidelines that support this vision. These will be upheld during this meeting. All remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to city business.

[1:11] No participant shall make threats or use other form of intimidation against any person. Obscenity, racial epithets, or other speech and behavior that disrupts or otherwise impedes the ability to conduct the meeting are prohibited. And participants may raise their hand to speak during open comment and public comment periods during hearings. Individuals must display their whole name before being allowed to speak online. Currently, only audio testimony is permitted online. So if you're joining online, just check that your name has both your first and last name. And then, when it is time to speak, either during open comment or… During the public hearing, you can find the raise hand function to indicate you'd like to speak under the reactions, menu, or there are some shortcuts, Alt-Y on a PC, Option-Y on a Mac, or Star 9 if you're dialing in on a phone.

[2:07] Back to you, Renee. Acknowledging that we have a quorum, there are four of us board members. The recording of this meeting will be available in the records archive and on YouTube within 28 days of the meeting. Roll, call, and introductions. Michael. Michael Ray, board member, vice chair, present. Chelsea. Hi, Chelsea Castellano, board member. John? John Decker, board member. Renee Globeck, board member. I mean… We know that people who are here to participate may have some strong emotions about this project. We want to hear from you, and have found that it's more productive if you are speaking to persuade us rather than to berate us, staff, or the applicant.

[3:07] As with the regular Landmarks Board meetings, you may only speak at the appropriate time during the public hearing. Requests to speak outside of these times are denied. We request that members of the public who wish to speak let us know by raising their virtual hand. As board chair, I will call for a will call vote on any motions that are made. Does anyone have any changes or alterations to the September 3rd minutes? I do not see any, and I move that we approve these meeting… these minutes. Do we have a second? I'll second. Thank you, John. seconds the motion. We'll do a roll call. John?

[4:01] I… Michael? Aye. Chelsea? Aye. an I… also approve. Now we move on to public participation for non-agenda items. Potential virtual participants. If anybody would like to speak to the, any of the things that are not public-related matters tonight, like any of the information that is on this schedule, now is the time for open comment. Alright, it looks like we have one hand raised so far. We'll start with Lynn Siegel. Lynn, just give me a moment to get the timer started. It would be convenient to know how long the public hearing tonight is going to take, because I have other obligations. Just saying, and

[5:04] I'm really concerned, after hearing LDRC today, you really need to record LDRC, because I needed to get the quote of the guy that basically said. As far as I can remember, Marcy, don't criticize me for not knowing, because I can't get what he actually said verbatim. But it sounded like he didn't believe that bungalows were a form of architecture that is applicable to society anymore. I mean, with those four places on Arapahoe next to Presbyterian Manor, there is a huge amount of money at stake in that project. And they say that two-thirds of the project will be nullified if they don't get those demolitions. That is outrageous, that they're also going to use LIHTC funds. and state historical funds, I guess. potential for historic… for affordable housing to push this thing, to ram this thing through. These developers, Element and the other three… two or three other developers that are on there, so I'm going to be watching that very closely. I'm not being critical here, I'm just saying, use a very acute, sense of historic value

[6:21] When you are talking to people who… who speak you know, with power, from a power situation. I mean, Presbyterian Manor is 10 stories hot. It looks like it's the same footprint for the four bungalows. And if they're saying that two-thirds of the thing is not going to be relevant to them, if they can't get Those four bungalows. that means, I guess, that they're going to put up another, you know, exceeding the 55-foot height limit down there across from the library, you know, next to Presbyterian Manor. But I… I suspect, and I don't know, Marcy, are they intending to…

[7:09] do a… pull a Gaza on that, on that Presbyterian manor, because, you know, that's an old building, and I suppose they could put up a much nicer, newer, bigger place, like came through Planning Board last night at 1840 Folsom. one building, this perfectly beautiful building demo, gonna go down for a Coburn, you know, project, or Bill Hollicky, whoever he's with. It's gonna be the highest-end luxury housing that Chelsea Castellano is just gonna freak with, because no one is gonna be able to afford… and, you know, there's not enough LIHTX funds on the face of the planet, there's not enough affordable housing that can ever make up for what this drives up the cost of housing in Boulder for these high, high, high-end projects. And I don't want to see another $50 million thrown away to these developers at Arapaho.

[8:08] Thanks, Lynn. And it looks like appropriate time, approximate time of end date for our meeting is 8.30 to answer one of your questions. Oh, let's move on. Well, let's ask Abby. Abby, is there anyone that has raised their hand? If anyone else would. Corporate. Speak during open… Crazy. Nope. Just raise your hand now. It's all good, Renee. Alright, I'm not seeing anyone else. I think we're okay to move on. We can move on now to the first public hearing. This is a public hearing and consideration of an application to demo a house constructed in 1905 at 3120 6th Street.

[9:02] His202500234, a non-landmark property older than 50 years. pursuit in Section 9-11-23 of the Boulder Revised Code. 1981, and under the proceedings prescribed by Chapter 1 through 3, quasi-judicial hearings, owner Skyler Cook and Tensha Lee, the owners I'll hand it over to Marci for the staff presentation. Alright, thank you, Renee, and good evening. Landmarks Board. And just a, point on the agenda, there was a spot for a discussion of pending applications, and I just wanted to acknowledge we don't have any pending stays of demolition, right now. Okay, so, moving on to 5A, we'll begin with the, quasi-judicial hearing. So, I'm Marci Gerwing, Principal Historic Preservation Planner, and I affirm that I will tell the truth.

[10:05] I'll pause to allow the board members to note any ex parte contacts, with a reminder that the Landmarks Board members who reviewed this application at the Landmarks Design Review Committee were John Decker and Michael Ray. So I'll pause here in case there are any other Conversations, site visits, anything that, isn't general knowledge or hasn't already been entered into the public record. Hearing none. Here's an overview of the process that we'll go through today. I'll start with a staff presentation. After that, the board may ask questions. Then the applicants will have 10 minutes to present to the board. Followed by board questions. We'll then open the public hearing, and after the last member of the public has spoke, the applicant will have a chance to respond to anything that was said. The board will then deliberate, and a motion requires an affirmative vote of at least 3 members to pass.

[11:03] Motions will state findings, conclusions, and a recommendation, and a record of this hearing is available as a video recording, and the official record will be added to the record archive within 28 days, usually sooner. The… Criteria for review is outlined in the Boulder Revised Code under 9-1123. This is a demolition application, and the purpose of reviewing demolition applications is to prevent the loss of buildings that may have historic or architectural significance by providing time to consider alternatives to demolition. The criteria that can be considered this evening are the eligibility of the building for a designation as an individual landmark, if it has historic or architectural significance. The relationship of the building to the character of the neighborhood as an established and definable area. The reasonable condition of the building, and the projected cost of restoration or repair, although not deterioration caused by unreasonable neglect.

[12:06] The options in front of you this evening are to approve the demolition request, or place a stay of demolition to allow time to consider alternatives. A stay would not exceed 180 days from the day the review feed was paid, and so it would expire on April 6, 2026. In July, and oh, going back to the application, process, so in July and August of 2025, staff received, multiple inquiries expressing concern for a deconstruction activity on the property. P&ds, Code compliance staff made a site visit, in mid-August, and on August 19th. The department received an application, to demolish the house. On August 27th, the Landmarks Design Review Committee referred the application to the full board, finding probable cause to believe the building may be potentially eligible for landmark designation.

[13:02] And on September 2nd, the landmarks… or the applicant paid the landmarks board hearing fee. The property is located on the east side of 6th Street, near the corner of Evergreen and New, on the corner of Evergreen, in the Newlands neighborhood. The house is set on the west end of the lot, and when the house was constructed, the lot extended south and fronted on Inner Evergreen Avenue, rather than 6th Street. In 1954, the lot was subdivided, and the orientation of the property changed to face west. And as a result, what was historically the side of the building is now the front of the building. The lot is bordered on the east by an alleyway, and the property is not within an identified potential historic district. The house was surveyed in 1995 and found to be significant as a representation of vernacular frame construction of the early 20th century. It is a one and a half-story framed structure with a gable roof and shed roof dormers on either side.

[14:05] The west elevation, facing 6th, features a main gable roof form with shed roof projections on either side. And the shed roof bay on the facade, is also flanked by double-hung windows with decorative wooden trim, one at the gable end and one at the lower level. The windows throughout the house are a combination of original wood double-hung windows, newer wood windows, and metal windows. And the primary entrance is located on the, projecting form on this south, which was originally an open porch that was enclosed after 1964. This is a photograph of the south elevation. The shed roof projection at the lower level was originally the front porch, and there's a shed roof dormer above, which is clad in wood shingles. Moving around to the rear of the house, this primary gable form is visible on the east elevation with the shed dormers on either side.

[15:04] This hipped roof portion was added in 1983 and extends across the rear elevation, and this addition includes a covered porch and deck with a wide staircase on the south and a curved portion on the north end. And then the side, north elevation features a shed roof dormer, and the main level has two windows, including one with a diamond pane glass and decorative wood trim. This elevation is clad in horizontal drop-lap siding, and this was likely an addition documented in 1923. Although the building is in its original location, the original design of the building has been altered through the enclosure of the front porch around 1964, and the change in orientation of the house and lot to Front 6th Street, which is west, rather than Evergreen Avenue to the south, which happened following the subdivision of the lot in 1954.

[16:00] In 1957, the north elevation was modified to enlarge the dormer, and the east elevation addition and deck was added in 1983. The exposed rafter tails were enclosed sometime, after 1995, and the windows have been replaced at various times over the history of the house. The building retains some of its historic materials, including parts of the horizontal lap siding and shingles, decorative wooden trim… window trim, and windows. The decorative shutters were added sometimes… sometime before 1995. The building demonstrates vernacular workmanship with notable features of trim detailing and the diamond pane window on the north elevation. And the building's ability to convey a feeling of its time in the setting of the house on the property has been diminished by the change in orientation and surrounding development. In general, the building has lost much of its ability to convey its association with its past residents in the early period of development in the Newlands neighborhood through these changes.

[17:05] Staff analysis of the criteria looks at the eligibility of the building for designation as an individual landmark, its historic, architectural, and environmental significance. The Landmarks Board adopted the significance criteria in 1975. to help evaluate buildings in a consistent and equitable manner. Staff analysis considers these criteria, as well as the relationship of the building to the character of the neighborhood, and the reasonable condition of the building, and the projected cost of restoration or repair. While the building… While the building at 31206th Street dates from around 1905, and is associated with past residents who exemplify the cultural and social heritage of the community, staff considers the property does not have the integrity needed to convey that significance. The changes to the building diminish the connection between the property and the community's cultural, political, economic, and social heritage and the development of the community.

[18:07] We did confirm that the house was likely constructed between 1902 and 1905, with the Coleman family listed as the first residents of the house. The Phillips family purchased the property in 1911 and lived here on and off for the next 43 years. Kitty and Bertie lived in the family home where they… while they gained experience as teachers and were located throughout the West, where needed during the school year. Their residence exemplifies the typical pattern required for female teachers during this time period. Subsequent working professionals who owned and resided in the house additionally exemplify patterns of Boulder's cultural and social heritage. Bill and Sarah Jane Cohen purchased the house in 1969 and lived there for 55 years. The Cohens are both recognized for their recent community service within Boulder, statewide and nationally, though much of that is,

[19:01] In the last 50 years. The house is representative of vernacular frame construction of the early 20th century. However, the additions and modifications to the building diminish its architectural and aesthetic interest or value. Staff considers it is not a significant example of architectural styles of the past, and does not include innovative use of material or exemplary craftsmanship to be considered significant. The Bungalow form was popular in Colorado from about 1900 to the 1930s, due to its simplicity and utility. The existing characteristic elements of this form include its gable roof, the overhanging eaves, simple horizontal lines, and vertically proportioned double-hung windows. The broad front porch with the central shed roof dormer is also iconic of this style. However, when the porch was enclosed in the 1960s, And no longer, carries that, historic character.

[20:08] Staff considers that the property does not have environmental significance, the building does not represent a unique, natural, or man-made environment, and the property is not located within the boundaries of a potential historic district. Additionally, the reorientation of the front of the house, which historically faced Evergreen. With a deep setback, has diminished its connection to the neighborhood. In considering its relationship to the character of the neighborhood, the Newland Edition developed as a residential area beginning in 1900. It is one of very few houses remaining from the early period of development that ended as the Great Depression slowed development in Boulder. The second period of growth for the Newlands addition began as many ex-servicemen returned to Boulder for higher education opportunities. During this period of growth, the Phillips family subdivided the lot. And while the house has… was modified to allow for the smaller lot, this change is reflective of the development of the neighborhood.

[21:08] The neighborhood is currently undergoing a third phase of development, with contemporary houses replacing some of the existing buildings, and the neighborhood is an eclectic mix of styles. Considering the condition of the building, the applicant provided a written narrative regarding its condition, and they are here to answer any questions that you may have. Staff considers that the current condition of the building is generally consistent with its 120-year age, and while repairs are necessary, staff doesn't consider the condition of the building to be unreasonable. The foundation was repaired at the southwest corner of the house in 2014 after an interior water leak, and at that time, repairs were completed at the rear deck. The owners noted that the current roof is approximately 30 years old, but there were no records to confirm the age. The applicant also provided a written narrative regarding the projected cost of restoration and repair, and the cost estimate comes out to approximately $540 per square foot.

[22:09] Staff estimates that the current cost of construction for a rehabilitation project of this scope typically ranges between $500 and $750 a square foot. Staff findings are that the building is not eligible for designation as an individual landmark, as alterations to the building have diminished its architectural integrity and ability to convey its significance. The property's setting has changed significantly through the subdivision of the property and reorientation of the front of the house, and the historic character of the neighborhood has diminished over time, and the property is not located in an identified potential historic district. The loss of this building would not constitute a significant impact on Boulder's historic resources. So with that, staff's recommended motion is to approve the application to demolish the building based on the criteria set forth in 9-11-23 of the Boulder Revised Code.

[23:07] That's the end of the staff, presentation, and I welcome any questions board members may have. And then as a reminder of the next step in the process, after board questions, we'll turn it over to the applicant for their presentation, then open up the hearing for public comment, followed by an applicant response and board deliberation. And with that, Does the board have any questions for staff? I see some heads shaking. No questions for me. No questions. Well, with that, I would welcome, the owner, as I know Tensha is online, as well as Josh. and Grace. We'll go ahead and send you, promotions to a panelist. You'll be able to… Here we go.

[24:18] And I'll take the time as folks are getting, on. At the beginning of the meeting, we covered the, public comment kind of guidelines, so if you're planning to speak, please double check, how your name shows up. You need to display both your first and last name. And if you have trouble, just, I think you can send Aubrey a chat. To help you, change your name. Otherwise, I see Tensha and Josh. Okay, great. Tenchia, I also see that, Dan, with Engineer Pipeline Snowflakes, is he part of your team, planning to speak during your applicant presentation, or no?

[25:03] No, he's not part of our team, but I believe he would like to speak during public comment. Okay, great. I was not sure if he, was an engineer, so… Okay, with that, I will mute and, maybe hand it back to Renee for… You to hand it off. Sorry, I got… the mute button is always, like, somewhere hidden on my computer, so, okay. Now let's move to, the applicant. I don't think there's anything I have to say, Marcy, right? No, just welcome Chen's. Oh, okay. 10 minutes. Welcome, and you have 10 minutes! It's very hard on Zoom. I, I certainly won't be using up all of that time. So we did not prepare additional materials today in light of the detailed presentation from staff, but I wanted to start by saying, you know, thank you to… thank you to staff for all your hard work, and to the Landmarks Board for your consideration. I don't really have all that much to add on top of the narrative we've already presented.

[26:22] However, I just want to give a little bit of, kind of, additional context, we are… we bought this, property hoping to build our dream home here. We're, you know, a young family, and we're not trying to… we're not developers, we're not trying to, like, flip… flip the house, and we… you know, also… We really didn't… we knew it was an old house, but we really didn't believe at the time we bought it that, it was, You know, kind of… historical landmark type of resource, or that, demolishing it would really be a big loss to the neighborhood,

[27:01] in terms of the historical heritage and character. And in fact, we, we love the historical character of Boulder, and we would never have wanted to tear down a house. That was important to that historical character. And as, you know, as, as, mentioned in the presentation, it would really present significant financial hardship for us to, take on the renovation project. That's, you know, what, it just… when we started looking at how much it would be to restore the house, and how uncertain the… especially the foundation work would be, it really became clear that renovation was not going to be financially feasible for us. And so, if it were designated, this… that would really be, actually, like, pretty financially devastating for us, given how much we've already invested into the property and the home. And I, you know, I… I…

[28:00] hope that the, sort of, level of cost will also be taken into consideration in this decision. I think that's, all I had. Thank you all again for being here. I don't know, Josh, do you have anything, that you'd like to add as well? I really don't have a whole lot to add to that. I'm Josh, I'm a Tentra's architect with Bonsai Design Build. You know, we've done some work in Boulder and have worked on landmark properties in Denver and Boulder. We're based out of Denver. You know, when we got into this project, we did our due diligence and, you know, understood that this was not a designated Or, or a district. So, this did come to a surprise for us when we, when we went in for this application. So, you know, we're hoping that, the board understands the position we're in and understands the condition of this property. It's not really a candidate. And, you know, we can kind of move through this process and…

[29:09] And we proceed with our… Alright, I think that's all we have. We're ready to hand it over to the next stage. Is there any questions for the app… does the board have any questions for the applicant? Okay, so let's move that I hear none. We'll go ahead and move to the public comment. The virtual attendees, please raise your hand or press star 9 if you'd like to speak to this item. the person who will be speaking, you will need to raise your hand and swear to tell the board the whole truth, state your full name, and proceed, and you will have 3 minutes.

[30:01] Alright, it looks like we have… Four hands up. We will start with Lynn Siegel. Yeah, let's start with Lynn. Am I waiting for you? To swear me in? Lynn, you just go ahead and tell us you're gonna tell the… swear to tell the board the whole truth, state your full name, and proceed. I swear to tell the truth as best I know it. And then your full name. Lynn Siegel. Thank you. Now, I lived at 7th and Forest, Bought a place for $145.92. And pretty near to Sarah Jane Cohen's place. If I had Sarah Jane Cohen, I might have gotten custody of my kids, which their father wanted abortions, and then he fought me for custody, and got Joan Brett, the Culinary Arts Institute gal, like, big, big, big money.

[31:05] So I lost custody of my own kids, and he's an electrical engineer, and I'm an ultrasound technologist. I had more than enough money to raise them, but instead, I had to pay him child support. And, you know, if I had Sarah Jane Cohen, man, I would have been in shape. But Sarah Jane Cohen's a good person. She… Volunteers for the homeless. You know, she's someone to be recognized in this community. Very well recognized. This house is a beautiful craftsman house. And if I could be an Environmental Advisory Board and be testifying against this contribution of Carbon footprint to the landfill. For years You conflict with Environmental Advisory Board, which is right now, and also Open Space Board of Trustees, which, along with Transportation Advisory Board and Water Resources Advisory Board and Planning Board, are the boards that I follow and testify at practically every single time I can.

[32:13] So… Could you please Spread it out, or if you really want to… if you wouldn't really want to retaliate on me, you could put RAB the same night, too. Because 3 boards in one night. Can't you at least make it 2, you know, or recommend that one of your people is asking for that, because this is an environmental issue, and to have the environmental issue just shoved off by Marcy on this house is really not okay, when I want EAB to weigh in on these houses, houses like this. Now, I don't know the exact, you know. Prices that they had for their estimates. Because that's not easily available to me.

[33:02] But… I think that there could be 3 or 4 estimates that could be more reasonable if they think the estimate's too high. This is a beautiful house, it's in a great place, and you know what's gonna happen? Like, the rest of Newlands, they're gonna put up, you know, a $5 or $10 million modern, you know. obscenity. Which is what's the name for them, basically. Even if they're not modern, they'll be like on Juniper at 10, 15 Juniper, which is just an ugly, ugly house. So please, just… Do not demo this place. Thank you, Lynn. Aubrey, the next person, our next… Public comment. Alright, next we have someone who's calling in on an iPhone. I'm gonna allow you to talk, and then I will rename you. Just let me know what your name is.

[34:05] Hello! Can you hear me? Yes? Yes. Hi, yeah, sorry, my name should have been on there, but, this is Irina Bootsky. Could you spell your first name? Sorry. Yeah, it's I-R-Y-N-A. I-R-Y-N as in noble. Yes. And then… What's your last name? Bootsky, it's B-U-T-S-K-Y. Thank you so much! Alright, I'll get that changed, and then I… we will swear you in, and I'll get your timer started. Okay. So, you all have 3 minutes to speak. Go ahead and raise your hand, and swear to tell the board the whole truth, and state your full name, and proceed. Okay. Sorry. So, my name is Iri Nabutsky, I swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, as far as I know it.

[35:06] So I live, you know, just a few houses down. I live on 7th and Evergreen. I guess… in my own understanding, like, this neighborhood was not a historical neighborhood. I personally love the… Character of having all of the different Housing types and styles were… I think that adds a lot to the charm of the neighborhood, and I think… You know, continuing to build in the neighborhood will add to the value of the overall neighborhood. And I think… My understanding is that the house is not… something that is, you know, safe to live in long-term as it is, and I think it's… significant… the burden, of, like, imposing having to renovate that house

[36:03] What… or the financial burden of that is. Kind of an unfair burden to ask of people before having, like, if it wasn't already designated as a historical You know, landmark before they purchased it. So I… personally think, like, I would want… People to feel like they can move into the neighborhood and kind of put their personal touch on their own property. Yeah, actually, I think that's, all I have to add. Well, thank you. Aubrey, do we have any… We have 2 more public comment. We actually have 3 more now, so I will get them situated. Next, we have Dan Sotelongo.

[37:06] Dan, you should be able to unmute. And Dan, please state your full name and swear to tell the truth to the board. Sure. Yeah, my name is Daniel Sotolongo, and I swear to tell the whole truth to the board. Great, thanks. So yeah, I don't really have that much to say. I guess, by way of context, I've known Skylar for… Skylar's, Tensions partner, by the way. I don't know, 15 years, something like that. And… I myself am fairly new to the Boulder community. I've been here for, about a couple of years. But, you know, it's kind of part of our shared dream to. come to Boulder and join the community, and we kind of really resonated with not just, like, the fact that, I mean, I know there's a lot of people who also value Boulder and have moved here, in the last, I don't know, half decade or so, but we've really enjoyed, kind of, how stable and long-lived the community is.

[38:17] And I feel like… part of that I don't know, I like the mixture of old and new, and kind of established culture with kind of injection of new ideas and new people. And so, just from that position, you know, I'm not, like, a wonk on policy or anything like that. But it seems to me that allowing people to Kind of… Move into places that, you know, aren't what you expect. And then being able to kind of adapt to that new information should be, like, foundational to, a community that welcomes new people, right?

[39:01] And, you know, I totally respect, and actually, I really appreciate the role that this board has of trying to preserve that culture that, Boulder has. It's just a… I feel like it needs to be balanced by the ability to move things forward, and not kind of get stuck in unexpected financial hardship. When… things kind of don't go the way that you expected them. So that's kind of all I had to say. Alright, thanks, Dan. Thanks, Dan. Moving right along, next we have Val. And Val, I'm happy to rename you if you let us know what your last name is. Hello. Am I audible? Yes. My name is Valentino Christian.

[40:01] Great. Is that V-A-L-A-N-T-I-N-O? E-N-T-I-N-O. Ian, thank you. Christian, okay. Great, thank you. And… Val, will you state your full name and swear to tell the board the whole truth? Yes, hello everyone, my name is Valentino Christian, and I promise to tell the board the whole truth. So, I'll keep it brief, I've known Skylar for a long time, and I think that as a young family, they have a lot to offer to the community. I'd really, I think that would be greatly to the community's benefit to have them in this area. And… I also live in the Mapleton Hill neighborhood. I've been over, around all the neighborhoods surrounding North Boulder Park a lot.

[41:02] And I appreciate the character of all of them, but I do notice a stark contrast between the neighborhoods that are, north of Mapleton Hill, like the one that we're discussing now, and the Mapleton Hill neighborhood, for instance, which is a marked historic district, where… The… the neighborhoods… to the north has a lot of homes that have been… renovated recently on the outside, as opposed to the historic character that you might see, you know, in Mapleton Hill, where you can see that the older character of all the houses in the neighborhood has been preserved. So, I think it would actually be keeping in Be consistent with the rest of the neighborhood if the, If that house were… were to be…

[42:01] Torn down and reconstructed as well to have a more consistent character and… And that burden would have to fall on someone who Who moves into that house in order for it to be safe to live in long-term regardless? And that's all I have to say, thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Bill! Alright, next we have Jonathan Bennett. Jonathan, you should be good to unmute. And Jonathan, state your full name and swear to tell the truth to the board. Jonathan Bennett, and I swear to tell the truth to the board, and pretty much everybody else, too. Thank you.

[43:00] So, I'm a long-term Boulder resident, and I have a lot of history in Newlands, as well as the Silver Lake neighborhood immediately north of Juniper. I have been involved in the building and construction of several homes in Newlands, and I have owned several homes in Newlands. All of which, technically would fall under some level of historic significance, and none of the homes that I had to, demolish in order to make the improvements, were deemed to be Historically reached a bar level of historic significance that would have precluded demolition. And, I would say this… this is an example of… of a house that also does not

[44:03] reach the threshold of, not allowing demolition. We've, you know, I've heard… I'm glad a lot of people went before me, so I don't have to, you know, address some of these issues, like the financial surprises, and so on and so forth. But I would say, that clearly, based on the criteria as I understand it for the historical review, that this does not meet any bar that's even close to high enough to prevent its demolition. you know, the mere fact that, you know, for better or worse, no matter what your opinion is of architecture and development in Newlands, the biggest thing that strikes me about this property is that,

[45:05] you know. as New Orleans evolved, as the person from the city, outlined, and very efficiently, by the way, as Newlands has evolved, it has changed, and this is perhaps yet another change, but it seems to me it's probably a very, very good change. And the other thing is, a wise man, I believe, once said, that, history looks backward, and it also looks forward. And from what I know of Tenchia and Schuyler. I think… they represent the character and characteristics of people you want in the future history of Boulder, Colorado. Thanks, Jonathan. You bet.

[46:02] So, we now will move on to the board discussion. Oh, we have an applicant response. Would the applicant like to have an additional 3 minutes if they would like to comment on anything that was said during this process? Would you like to add anything? Kensha? No, we don't have anything to add, but thank you, everybody, for attending. Okay, we're going to move to board discussions, and I ask that everyone else please mute your computer or phones for the duration of the discussion. We'll allot approximately 45 minutes for the discussion. Does anybody of the board want to start it off? I will, say a little bit about it. I… I love how staff puts together these, these presentations for us to review and to look into these, homes in Boulder, and, I know that the…

[47:07] the client… has, a responsibility to, once we go to LDRC, and then you come into the full board, I know there's quite a bit of more information that you need to provide, but that does allow us time to, you know, review these… these homes, and not necessarily you know, there are those gems in Boulder that are not in the historic district, so… and something like this is a… is a… it… this is a little… The house, because its orientation is now been changed, because there's a house in front of the existing front elevation, so, I find this to be a unique situation. So… but I'd like to, you know, just the fact that I know there's… that the board has to put together, that the staff has to put together all this information. I appreciate it, I love to learn about these homes, we now have it on record, and for the client, they get to go, you know, we get to dive a little bit deeper. So, even though it might be something, a little bit of hardship, I think that this is great.

[48:14] I will be supporting staff's recommendation, on allowing the demolition to continue. John? I somehow knew that was coming. I could probably talk about this for about an hour if it was an open discussion. But I saw Chelsea shake her head. Unfortunately, We're limited to what it is we're supposed to be reviewing. Which is, first of all, to make a determination about the potential for preserving this, building.

[49:06] Because it meets a whole set of criteria, which we've had clearly stated, and which we try to clearly apply. And… Also, If it's outside of any, I guess, broader definition, such as being in a historic district. Or in some other kind of urban design-designated location. The only thing we can do is to review the building right in front of us in the terms that are provided by our enabling Code. That being said, I have to support staff's recommendation, because I do not think this building shows

[50:01] Significance sufficient in any of the categories, to preserve. And… At the same time, I don't feel like putting a stay of ex… or a stay of execution, a stay of demolition on it would serve any real purpose at this point, because of the thoroughness of staff's review of the project and the attendant history, which I really Found interesting and enjoyed reading. That being said, I think I do have to say this. The issue of demolition only gets reviewed by us in those terms. If it is a sufficiently historic… Building, then we can hold up demolition. And… For all of the reasons.

[51:01] That we would have But all the other things that really should be considered in a demolition in this community, we have no purview over. The environmental issues, the significance of the house to the building stock, embodied energy, all of those things. Somebody else needs to do that. It's not a landmarks board issue. So, I have to support the recommendation as it's stated, and not bring those things up. But I just did. So I will be voting to support staff's recommendation. Chelsea? Yeah. I, really appreciate the way, like others have mentioned, the way that staff laid out the,

[52:03] the reasons for their recommendation, and I also really appreciate the applicants, who I'm sure have gone through a rather stressful process, wanting to ensure that they can, you know, can live in the home that they intended to live in. So I really appreciate their patience through this, and their grace, and I will be supporting staff's recommendation to approve the demolition. Thanks, Chelsea. Michael? So, I'm kind of getting hung up on the 1905 date. We see a lot of these bungalows that come through from the 20s, and I think there's, for me, a little bit more hesitation if… if it's that much older. I mean… So… so it's more than 100 years old as a house, and… and I think there's some significance to that. I would agree that, Renee, your comment about the reorientation of the… the front door with respect to a new, the subdivision of the property to the south,

[53:17] really does change the… not only the site characteristics, but the architectural characteristics. I mean, it changes the facade, if you will, from evergreen to… to 6. So I'm torn, and for all the reasons that John just mentioned are outside of How we make decisions on this board. I… I do have a comment, though, about… Some of the statements made regarding the eclectic mix of this particular neighborhood. And… and I guess I would just say. Another one bites the dust if this gets demolished, right? I mean, at what point is there a change in that eclecticism

[54:05] When all the houses end up being these sort of sketch-up, modernist, you know, single-tilt. contemporary house that could be… could be anywhere in Denver. I mean, it just… Boulder starts to lose its architectural characteristics outside of the designated historic districts. And… and that's just sort of a word of warning, right? I mean, again, it's not our purview, per se, to be the… the style arbiters of how communities, particularly long-standing communities, are changed over time. They're reflective of their current ownership, but… but again, it… to say that there is a… A, an appreciation of having the mix, and then to just go ahead and… and… and get rid of what makes the diversity of architecture work in these communities, tilts more in the direction of sameness is a little disappointing and kind of sad. I… I don't…

[55:09] think that when I see $500 a square foot, I see that as unreasonable as a cost for construction. I suspect that new construction will be at least that. So are we trading one for the other, really? We're trading an old house for a new house, for probably equal value. I'm torn. I'm really torn. But based on the criteria, supporting staff's recommendation is probably the direction that I'd go in. John, I think you're right to say that a stay is… what… what point does that… I mean, if there was an opportunity for the owners to sort of Embrace the eclecticism of the neighborhood and reconsider demolition. I… I didn't kind of hear that in their… They're,

[56:04] their statements, or for the support of the demolition. So, I don't think there's a point in the stay as well. That's my… the extent of my discussion. Kinda sad. Well, thanks, Michael. I mean, I… I… you know, I think anytime that we're… I mean, we're all on the Landmarks Board, and I think anytime that we can, hope that we don't have to, you know, tear a building down and, and the criteria screams to us, I think all of us would… want that. I do think… that that area… I mean, there are little gems in there that, have a landmark that should… that could qualify as a landmark building. So, and I hesitate with people buying houses that aren't in the historic district, because they still could be a historic property. So,

[57:08] So, I… I applaud the staff, because we go through this process for this reason, and, ultimately, we have to, go with the criteria. So… Is there anyone that would like to do a motion? And if we could bring that back up… And, Chelsea, would you do the honors of making a motion? Oh, sure. I move the Landmarks Board approve the application to demolish the building at 3126th Street and adopt as findings the staff memorandum finding that the building does not meet the criteria set forth in Section 9-11-23FBRC 1981.

[58:10] Do I have a second? I second it. Lao, let me find… Thank you, Chelsea, and… and… And let's do a roll call vote. John? Aye. Michael? Aye. Chelsea? Hi. The motion passes… oh, and I… Renee chose I. The motion passes 4 to 4, unanimously. The next steps. sorry, the paper document that I printed versus what Aubrey Ridd printed is a little different, so I have to, like.

[59:00] do with what I have. To end each case, we'll ask Marcy to explain the next steps. Sorry, Renee, would you mind just restating the results of the vote? Okay, the motion passes unanimously 4 to 4. 4 to 0. 4-0. Oh, there you go, thank you. Okay, great. Thank you. That why you were questioning me. Alright, and thank you, Renee, for doing the hard job of chairing a board. So the next step with the, Landmarks Board approval is that We will approve the, demolition case. That approval is valid for one year, so it's valid until October 8th of 2026. And, that's the amount of time you'll have to submit for your building permit. Or, sorry, for your deconstruction.

[60:03] corruption. permit. If the deconstruction permit is not obtained, by next October, then a new historic preservation application is required. So… That concludes the hearing, and thank you so much for your time. And let's move on to matters. Letter to the council we're gonna discuss first? Yes, we wanted to do… we're right on time, Renee, from what our estimated one… we were gonna check with everyone if anybody needed a break before we go into matters. We have, Like, two short items and a history presentation, but… If everybody's good to keep going, I'll… We'll jump right in. Well, Marcy, why don't we just take a 5-minute break, just for, Honoring that, maybe I'll get some water. Okay. Let's be back at… 705.

[61:03] That's a 3-minute break.

[66:52] We'll get started as soon as everybody's back.

[67:02] There we go, awesome. Okay, so, yes, we've got 3 items under matters this evening. One is, discussion related to a potential letter to Council. The second one is a… recap of the Pass Forward, conference that Michael attended in Milwaukee, and then Claire has a… history presentation related to the Second Baptist Church. And so, we've estimated about, 20 to 30 minutes for this first conversation, about 10 to 15 for Michael's recap, and 30 minutes for Claire's presentation. So, I emailed you all earlier this week, letting you know that Council is inviting input from boards and commissions this year, related specifically to their one-year council priorities, and they will consider these letters, as part of their retreat in January.

[68:05] So, the letter is optional, so I was hoping today you all might just talk about whether you want to write a letter or not, and then how you might go about doing that. A couple changes this year is that the board and commission subcommittee created a template to use, and, that was attached to the email, and the letter should be 2 pages or less. It will inform their retreat discussion in mid-January, where they'll set their one-year council priority projects, and so they're asking specifically for recommendations for Council Priority projects. So, in the past, sometimes it's like. a state of historic preservation, or climate initiatives, or water resources, what they're looking for, this year is more specific recommendations. Is there any project that you would recommend they, prioritize, in 2026?

[69:01] The projects are expected to be completed in 12 months or less, and should align with the citywide strategic plan and existing department plans for each board and commission, like our historic preservation plan. And the deadline for a letter is Friday, December 19th, so that would leave two regular board meetings, the November and December ones, for you all to discuss a letter, or in the past you've done, like, working groups, separate from the Landmarks board meetings. So, because the deadline always comes up really fast, I wanted to bring this up as soon as we heard about it, so, I would… Would the Landmarks Board like to propose council priority projects this year? And if so, how would you like to go about writing the letter? It's bedtime. So.

[70:02] I think that, I think I… I think we should write a letter. And I think we should do it in the working groups again. How does the rest of the board feel? I… I agree, I think we should do a letter. I think we should have some working group process. I have some ideas, as usual. And… I think it would be valuable for us to write a letter that very, very solidly links with the comprehensive plan update and the Historic Preservation Plan Update. I agree. Yeah, I think it would be good to write a letter as well. I do…

[71:02] wonder what folks are thinking in terms… I guess this… If we all agree. that we're writing a letter, maybe we can spend a few minutes talking about what we would agree on? I am curious about… councils… like, I would love to hear councils vision for landmarking in the future for historic preservation as we… As we look to update our strategic plan and have guidance from them about… the types of things that they're interested in us considering. And I think that that… would be helpful. I guess it's less of us Telling them in more… Right. More of kind of wanting to open that dialogue and have… them…

[72:01] Have something on their work plan that kind of goes over the current Process and, and have them think about? How they would like it, or, you know, their vision for the program in the future, as we consider those ideas as well. May I? Speak. I think it's interesting what Chelsea just said, because it syncs somewhat with what I was… going to… I guess, recommend. I think that because Council is looking for things that could be Projects that were essentially completed in the 12… 12 months, or during the 12 months. After the, Council Retreat. I think… I think that we should look at the issue of

[73:00] Vision and identity, which came up in several public comments tonight. And I think that… what we should encourage Council to do is to stage some kind of a process that garners the public's desires and intentions towards an understanding, I guess, of what boulders identity. should be considered, or how to consider Boulder's identity and a kind of vision for how the citizenry wants to go forward with these ideas. And so, in other words, stage some kind of a… Public process to garner that information. Something a little more fluid and… and open… I guess, than the, statistically valid

[74:02] survey that we had on the comp plan, which I found to be a very good survey. So, that's… that's… I like the idea of bringing community identity and vision into this somehow, and how Historic preservation fits into that. We need to know where we stand in this community. Yeah, I really, I really like that, John. I mean, Marci, I've never been a part of a strategic plan update with the city before. Is, like, what level of support do we have, like, and by we, I'm including, like, you as staff and we as a board. for that process, or is it something that if we wanted to really, like, re, you know… Imagine this program.

[75:00] Would we need counsel to give more resources to us to do that? Yeah, so I can tell you how we… we did it when the plan was formed in 2013, but I also am so inspired by the work the comp planning team is doing for the update of the comp plan, which is, So inclusive and, really focused on community engagement in a way that the original historic preservation plan, we had engagement, but it just was in a very different way. 10, 15 years ago than we do, or 10 years ago. So, what we are, anticipating is hiring a consultant, which helps both with, like, the resources, but also kind of the… The visioning and helping to bring people together, asking the right questions. So having… That, kind of… addition to our team would be really… is really helpful.

[76:07] sorry, your question was about resources, for the historic preservation plan and whether we should ask for some, is that right? Or could you rephrase it? Yeah, I guess, like, would… What are the… What does the process look like without any… Like, what was it gonna look like? as, like, a standard process, I guess, and I think part of what John and I are saying is, like, is asking Council to make some version, you know, some piece of this one of their priorities, does that help us get the resources we need to make a more robust process? Mmm, that's a good… that's a good question, and it might… be helpful for me to speak, like, in the work session when we have these, so that I'm a little more refreshed, but I do, when John was speaking about,

[77:05] You know, the value of preservation, the interconnectedness with other values, like, that is the work of the strategic plan, and the process that would likely span, like, 9 to 12 months. And so, the plan itself is a project that, Council could, like, support, but, we will likely be moving ahead and doing it, whether it's one of their priority projects or it's one of our department, priorities. So does, like, community engagement Would… do you feel like without councils? Without it being a council priority, we have enough resources to do the level of community engagement that would make it more of the inclusive process that you're seeing with the comp plan. I think we do, because we have a really amazing community and engagement team, and staff that we work with, and so we would,

[78:08] lean on them, and I've also seen consultants do amazing, community engagement, really creative, innovative preservation engagement events that, that I would want to budget into our, scope. But again, I feel like we could do the project. and scope it, within our, kind of, regular work plan. I think I'd want to… But it is a big project. It's the biggest historic preservation project, potentially, in, you know, in a decade. So, having Council's support and, all of that is, there's probably a lot of benefit to that. Without taking a position, I do want to think about. I wasn't quite prepared to jump into it, as you can tell, this evening.

[79:00] No, you're good. I mean, I… yeah, I don't think we were either. We're just brainstorming. I forgot, I was gonna say… oh, when is that supposed to start? 2026, and… I don't know what year it'll be by the time we update it. It'll be, like, the 13-year update to the Historic Preservation Plan, but, we do need to, get the okay in the budget. You know, the budget's been pretty constrained. Currently, so, I don't have a specific time, but we're anticipating it'll be, next year. Okay. So, it sounds like, and this was, meant to be, like, the start of the conversation, it sounds like there's, unanimous support for wanting to write a letter, and, doing a workshop, like we did last time was, valuable. So, Aubrey, if we could ask you to send out a doodle poll, would you all prefer a virtual meeting, or do you want to try and get together in person?

[80:12] I see virtual head nodding. Or… I should let you all answer. Would you like it in person or virtual? I can go either way. Bane. Virtual's easier for me. hybrid. What's… Yes. There you go. Okay, so, yeah, Aubrey, if you wouldn't mind putting a doodle poll for, maybe a hybrid meeting between, now and the next meeting. We'll see if we can get some time between now and, I think, November 5th. But it might have to be longer, depending on availability. And then, what support would you all like from staff? We're happy to attend, we're happy to…

[81:04] Brainstorm, we're happy to just leave you be and let you run with it, whatever you'd like. I would be inclined to want staff there. myself. We can do that. Excellent. Okay. Well… that was what I had hoped to start the conversation with, but I would say you're welcome to keep brainstorming if you, If you'd like to now, or we can hold that for the work session that will happen hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Well, can we… Can we agree… To come to the workshop with, like, our three top ideas, individually, in order to develop a consensus. Where there's overlap, we can focus on those.

[82:03] You know what I mean? Like, I guess I'm trying to… I'm trying to find, or find a way to maybe consolidate the effort of the workshop to really focus on On… on language and… And, and, the, those, those topics that would… Be easy to develop a consensus about, as opposed to… You know, one person who's gonna come in with the one thing, and that's gonna be their… you know, the… the hill they want to die on with a letter, and if… I mean, I think it's… Chelsea, I think that's where Chelsea was kind of going, is like, what… how do we… how do we make sure this is productive, right? And if somebody… I don't know. Maybe I should just leave it at that. Well, I think that… I think that's a great idea, is to come with multiple ideas. around… I… yeah.

[83:03] With the intent to consolidate. Maybe with no string, but consolidated Or, or consolidatable within the… Constraints of the 12-month time frame, and… As to whether it benefits the planning processes, etc. Okay, yeah. Great, okay, so I like the, the kind of… Pre-work to think about potential projects, or to come to the meeting ready to propose. one to three projects, and, the guardrails in the email from the, city clerk's office is that they should be projects, they should be completed within 12 months or less, because then Council will be checking in on the progress at the retreat in 2027, and they should align with the citywide strategic plan and the preservation plan.

[84:04] So that's all in an email that I sent earlier this week, and then look for an email from Aubrey with a doodle poll to get something together in the next couple weeks. Alright, I think that wraps this one up, which means it's, handing it over to you, Michael. Tell us what you learned in Milwaukee! 10 to 15 minutes, that's a challenge for me. 10 to 15 minutes. Do you need Ava to put the timer up. Probably. I'm gonna go… I'm just gonna do a quick… oversight of, of, sessions that I attended, but I… I do have some, like, two, two favorite topics, And… and… and hopefully leave… leave some room for any questions. But, really quickly, it was… so it was held in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I went early so that I could do my own tour of the Johnson Wax.

[85:07] headquarters building in Racine, Wisconsin, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright in the 30s, and the tower in the 50s. I also attended a… a conference-sponsored tour of Taliesin. Both… both Taliesin and Johnson Wax are places that I had visited before when I was a college architecture student. So it'd been… ages since I had been to those places, but it was great to have access to those places, and if you're ever in the neighborhood of either, I… I highly recommend that architecturally, they will kind of change your perspective. I attended an adaptive and reuse and LEED session that was really an introduction of the new, sort of, the next variation of LEED. reporting. I attended a really interesting public art expands the American Narrative session, where folks from Galveston, Texas, talked about their initiatives to create awareness about Juneteenth.

[86:12] And specifically a public art piece and public art pieces in general, but how communities and individuals all can kind of come together and rally for creating a public narrative about important and maybe under… under, served, communities. And, I also attended a historic, assessment, kind of exercise, that was, you know, for my own personal benefit from a technical standpoint. But the… the couple things, one that I wanted to mention, if you've not heard of Clint Smith. He's a poet and, I guess, a cultural historian. His book that is known well, young, young gentleman, raised in New Orleans.

[87:08] But his book titled, How the Word Has Past, A Reckoning with History of Slavery Across America, was something that he talked about in terms of his personal experiences going to places, and And, and, investigating the sort of cultural… historic value of those places, and he… he was… it was just… he gave a plenary discussion or talk, and he talked about really being at places and… and really needing to sort of feel the wind, smell the smells, and those were just as important tactile experiences that allowed him to really do deep dives, in the tangibility of a place, the physical nature of a place, as opposed to all the associated, sort of. rumors, and we might call it history, but to really get to know a place, and he seemed to go to places and really investigate every perspective. He talked about going to a Confederate cemetery on a day where

[88:14] Descendants of Confederate, you know, soldiers celebrate… I don't know what the day was, but he… he engaged with those descendants, and it was, for him, very, very interesting to sort of be able to trade the stories and… and… and removing one person's association from history just wasn't the right thing, but adding more associations Is, what makes us a richer and fuller, culture, I suspect. I found that it was interesting that he's taking that perspective and investigation in history, and he talked about a project that he did for The Atlantic, called Monuments to the Unthinkable, where he goes to Germany, and he… he investigates how they are, memorializing, continuing to memorialize the Holocaust, and… and how…

[89:11] those stories are never… you're never done telling those stories, and I thought that was really impactful, that we never get to a point where we're like. you know, we exhale, and we're like, okay, we're done. We got… we're finished with this ugly past. It's just continuing to sort of evolve the understanding and the complexity of those stories. So I felt like that was interesting. I personally have done a hold on that book at the Boulder Library, so if you're trying to check it out. I'm gonna have it for a few weeks, sorry about that. And lastly, the two sessions that I attended, one was digital story archives and also historic structure reports as creative tools for education and preservation, and this is where I kind of dovetail to some of the,

[90:01] The, the, the benefits of where Claire is taking us on these, sort of history reports, if you will. I don't know, Claire is probably a better way to… for me to characterize, what you're sharing with us about deep dives into history. But, something that I'm very, very interested, personally, as a result of these is the use of GIS technologies, to create story mapping. that can be accessed publicly. I just was hypnotized by how powerful that can be. And easy it is, really. I mean, we say GIS, and we talk about geospatial surveys, and I'm like, I don't know what any of that is, but… but these two sessions really, really created… like, an access to how to… how to expand involvement engagement in communities through these story mapping exercises. And I think the sky is the limit, honestly.

[91:05] With how sophisticated or simple they can be, but… but really provide, public access to this… the ability to tell, stories and… and deep ones about places that they… people just don't, you know… you can't get there with the plaque, right? And this is the opportunity for people to be online and just kind of wandering through the labyrinth of history and finding their place, but you… you set up a framework to… to do that. And I… I mean, I'll leave it at that, but I could go into a little bit more detail about how communities and the stewardship is really There's motivations for those things via the access for story mapping, or the creation of story maps for cultural histories. I don't… I'll stop there, but it, you know, there's an open end to… to, I think, the opportunities there, and I… I got the sense that it's… it's really…

[92:07] And this is before I embarked on doing one myself, but, that it's not that hard. To do. And certainly, people who have been doing it, it's like a flip of a switch, but, to, to sort of engage others in enriching those story mapping tools is… it spoke to me, and it spoke to me in the sense that what Claire is… is doing could easily sort of find its way into those kinds of devices that I think would be Really amazing for the city and its residents and visitors, and… and the, you know… Introduce Boulder to the world via story mapping. But I'll stop there, and if anybody has any questions, I'm happy to answer them. But I will say, and I know, Marci, you were sort of asking me to speak about, sort of hot topics. I mean, certainly the hottest topic is, you know, the lack of funding, and the funding that's getting kind of

[93:05] Flush down the toilet. away from preservation and cultural resource efforts. That's on everybody's mind. There were no sessions about it, but it was palpable, for sure. Well, thank you so much, Michael. I, it sounds like such a wonderful, conference and the Johnson Wax Building is, like, way up there on my bucket list of buildings to see, and the story map that Claire and Kate from, comms put together for the Civic Area Historic District, when we stopped counting, had, like, 1,800 views on it, which, for preservation in Boulder. is just the most, that's the most, and I think it also shows that people were coming back to it, too, because there is so much, and it's interactive, and you could really see it, and I was on a,

[94:04] vacation for fun a couple weeks ago in Spokane, Washington, and it was interesting to, like, travel somewhere I hadn't been as a tourist who's interested in historic preservation, and, like. what was I looking for to find out about their historic neighborhoods and about their history, and coming back and being like, oh, we should… we should put something on our website for visitors, because… Yeah, like, there's so much information, and I really appreciate that, and hearing… hearing all about those sessions, and… I'll get in line behind you for that hold at the library. Nice. Okay, well, that could be a good transition. This is the second part in, claire's, Presentations where she's looking at a part of Boulder's history that has either, not been documented much in the past, or the story

[95:09] Seems incomplete, and so looking to help, tell a more complete history of Boulder, but also, just starting the process of, learning more, collectively learning more about our community's history, so… Take it away, Claire. Thank you. I'm gonna turn my camera off and eat some… Dinner. Alright, thank you, and thank you, Michael, for introducing us to Clint Smith, because it sounds like That book is really interesting, and I fully agree that the more we add, the more we know, and, you know, the better we get, so… Today, I wanted to, elevate some of the people in Boulder's history who were instrumental in forming and supporting the early Second Baptist Church, and as you… as you all know, a church is obviously focused around its congregation, so there… there were, and there still are, many people involved.

[96:09] And my goal here was not to just retell the story of the church, which Minister Glenda does such a great job as the church historian, but to connect the success of the church to the wider context of Boulder and Colorado. And, You know, two historically excluded communities, churches were a place for social gatherings, celebrations, solace, comfort away from the influence or the control of people outside of the community. And the Second Baptist Church was founded by women who had experienced firsthand The power of self-determination. But these women not only had to bring the community together, but they had to create their own institutions to make the church a success, and I hope you enjoy hearing about them.

[97:02] As much as I enjoyed researching them. So the history of the Second Baptist Church begins with Mrs. Daisy Horne, and Daisy was born Desdemona Scruggs in Kentucky in 1867. When she was about 11 years old, her family heard W.E.H. Hill. speak at their local Baptist church in Georgetown, Kentucky, and Hill persuaded the family to move nearly a thousand miles west to Nicodemus, Kansas. The Scruggs family arrived in 1878 to the all-black colony in western Kansas. They were the third or fourth group to arrive at the town, which at its height had about 600 residents. The priorities of the settlers were clear. They quickly established a church, they banned saloons, and in 1879, opened the first school in the county. Daisy's parents, Jerry and Kitty Scruggs, who were both born into slavery in Kentucky, saw a better future for their nine children, including Daisy, and younger sister Lulu, who was born in Nicodemus.

[98:15] We don't currently know much about Daisy's early life, but according to the 1880 census, when she was 13, she could not write, but she could read. She attended school in Nicodemus and learned to write too, and she was likely very skilled at both by 1892 when she moved to Boulder, as she bought and sold multiple properties over her lifetime. Daisy married Richard Townsend on May 8th, 1894, at the African Methodist Church in Boulder, which, at the time, that was the only Black church in town. Richard was the porter at the Boulder Club. And when he fell ill, Daisy sent for her younger sister, Lulu to come to Boulder from Nicodemus to help her with their children, Ethel, who was 5, and Lillian Marie, who was 3.

[99:02] Richard sadly died of tuberculosis in 1900. He was 32 years old. Daisy began organizing the Second Baptist Church that very same year. Both sisters became involved in organizing the early church, most likely to provide the support network the young grieving family needed. Lulu stayed to help her sister and nieces, and she soon married Frank Lingham and settled in Boulder. In 1903, Daisy remarried Robert Horne. Although they stayed in Boulder, Daisy and Lulu both kept their strong ties to Nicodemus and their family in Kansas. Grace, who was Lulu's daughter, remembered traveling to Kansas to spend summers with the extended Scruggs family, and this is the church she may have remembered. It's the first Baptist Church of Nicodemus, Kansas, in 1943. The, the Baptist congregation in Nicodemus organized in 1878, and by 1880, the community built a small sanctuary from local limestone. And as a 13-year-old, Daisy likely remembered the event from her childhood.

[100:13] As her family was closely involved in the church. And this is Daisy and Lulu's brother, Jerry Jr, in 1960. He, by then, was one of the Nicodemus church leaders. Nicodemus is the longest-lasting Black colony in America, and families still live there today, but it's also a national historic site and an important example of the self-determination of the Black community. Daisy and Lulu grew up surrounded by people who worked together to provide what their family and their community needed. And when they saw that their community in Boulder needed something, they made it happen. Their purpose created the early Second Baptist Church and gave the community a way to control its own destiny.

[101:07] But the community was very small. Census records give us a snapshot in time every 10 years and show that historically, there were very few Black community members in the city of Boulder. The 1910 census counted 166 Black residents, which is seen as the historic height of the community. While this is an estimate and a single point in time, the data shows that the Black population typically hovers between 1% and 2% of the total population, and the line on this graph represents 1% of the total population of Boulder. Also, there was already a Black church in Boulder, the Allen Chapel of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. So with around 150 potential congregates split over, two places of worship, how did Daisy and Lulu pull together and hold together the congregation in their early years? And maybe the bigger question is, how did they afford to buy the first building that was used as their place of worship?

[102:11] Because, under Daisy's leadership, the Second Baptist Church ordained its first minister, Reverend Goodwin, on December 30th, 1907, And only 9 months later, the church trustees purchased a building as their first gathering place. Lulu Lingham was the secretary, and Robert Horne, Daisy's husband, was the president of the church trustees. And the church was here. Where Mike's camera is today, at the corner of 24th and Pearl Streets. At the time, the charter members and early congregation lived throughout the town. Daisy and Robert Horne lived at the northern edge of Boulder, a block from Daisy's sister Lulu and husband, Frank Lingham. Fred and Lula Gibson did not own their own property, but they lived, about here at that time, and William and Sylvia Willis rented a house here.

[103:08] An early congregant, Jenny Johnson, lived here, where the Penfield Tate Municipal Building sits today. Mary and George Reeves lived on Goss Street, and Thomas Rucker, a widower, and his family were their neighbors. When the Second Baptist Church formed, the Black community spanned the full extent of Boulder. Black families owned and rented property at Boulder's northern edge on North Street, throughout the Whittier neighborhood, and at the outskirts of Mapleton Hill and Highland Lawn. with the Allen Chapel of the AME Church at the center. But rather than fracturing the community, the addition of the Second Baptist Church allowed the community to increase their support network. The two congregations shared musical and social events, and even family members.

[104:06] This photograph is of Mary Reeves with her husband George Reeves on the left, and their daughter, Alice Cleura, sitting between them. The photograph was made around the time the family moved to Boulder, and Mary became one of the charter members of the Second Baptist Church. George and Mary were not related to Daisy and Lulu, but Mary and her family were instrumental in the success of the church, and they had a similar background of seeing self-determination in action. Mary? was born Mary Jane Morrison in Howard County, Missouri, around 1880. Mary's grandparents had been born into slavery. Her mother, Alice, was widowed at a young age with 3 children older than 16 and 5 younger ones. She moved her younger children to Boulder so they could attend Boulder's elementary schools, the state prep school, and the University of Colorado. Their lives will fill a separate presentation, because they were a talented family that has influenced Boulder and even Colorado today.

[105:07] But today, we're going to focus on two siblings, including Mary. Who was one of the eldest who stayed behind in Missouri, and married George Reeves in August 1900. George's father was a preacher in Howard County, Missouri, so it makes sense that George and Mary searched out a church community as soon as they moved to Boulder in 1903. But we don't know why Mary was drawn to the Second Baptist Church rather than the Allen Chapel, where her brother Lee and his family attended. Mary's time was filled. In addition to supporting the new church and managing her own household, Mary worked as a cook. George found work as a laborer, and then as a boot black, in a shoeshine parlour. But his real calling was in music. Both he and Mary and the extended Morrison family were incredibly musically talented.

[106:01] George became well-known for the George Reeves Orchestra, but as his brother-in-law, George Morrison, a world-famous musician. You may have heard of, and sometimes member of the George Reeves Orchestra would say, color was an absolute barrier to a career in symphony orchestra. High academic achievements or talent or hard work of Black individuals could not change the employment opportunities that were available to Black individuals in Boulder. A report in the University of Colorado Law Review in 1999 found what is most striking is the talent that left Boulder because of the lack of opportunity. Mary's younger sister, Carrie Lucille Morrison, had moved to Boulder with her mother and siblings as a child to attend Boulder Prep, but she returned to Missouri and married Alfred Gladstone Ray in 1904, when she was 17.

[107:03] The couple and their eight children traveled back and forth between Boulder, Howard County, Missouri, and Akron, Colorado, on the eastern plains. Akron had a local Black farming community that was much smaller than Nicodemus, but with the same purpose. The family connections in Boulder helped Carrie and Alfred and their children during challenging times. They came into town for the birth of their children and for periods during the First World War. And by 1925, the Ray family moved permanently to Boulder, and bought a house near Carrie's sister Mary and their mother, Alice, on Goss Street. Carrie soon identified a need in the Black community and turned her home into an employment agency. Black women had no option but to work outside of the home, as well as run their own households and families, so Carrie found them domestic employment with the white, wealthy families in Boulder.

[108:00] She also solved a problem for Black teachers from the South. During the summer, Black teachers came to Boulder to attend CU, but there were complications. Black teachers in the South could not enroll in the white universities in their home states. But advanced education was mandated for continuation as a teacher, and teaching was one of the few professions available to African Americans at the time. And the Southern states knew they needed to retain their Black teachers to teach their Black students. So the teachers were encouraged to attend the University of Colorado during the summer. However, although CU welcomed the Black students, they did not allow them to stay in the dorms, and they were not welcome at most places on the Hill. The Housing Committee at CU, contacted Kerry for help. The Black students were provided a stipend for living expenses, so Carrie, Mary, their mother Alice, and other members of the community responded by opening up their homes. They provided lodging and meals, but also a community. And the pillar of the Black community was the church.

[109:08] In an interview in 1976, Ruth Flowers explained that the Black community was, quote, forced to create their own social culture, which formed around two churches. Everyone always got together, especially the young, who would go back and forth between the churches, looking for a chance to socialize and have fun. And the two churches were the Allent Chapel of the AME Church at the northwest corner of 18th and Pearl. And the Second Baptist Church, located on the eastern edge of Boulder, at the northeast corner of 24th and Pearl. By the late 1920s, the AME Church's congregation was aging, and they could no longer justify a permanent pastor for Boulder. They began to share preachers with Denver churches. However, the congregation of the Second Baptist Church grew, and even with the expansion of the first building, the church space proved to be too small, especially during the summer months with the influx of Black students.

[110:14] So, in 1934, at the height of the Great Depression, the Second Baptist Church trustees sold the old church building and purchased the property at the corner of Water Street, now Canyon Boulevard. and 19th Street. The trustees were Howard Ackers, Carrie and Mary's cousin. Alfred Ray, Carrie's husband, and Alfred and Carrie's son, Lawrence Ray. The new church site was central to the board and lodging business where Carrie, Here. Mary… Their mother, Alice. Younger sister, Riona Allen. Sarah Harris. Katie Denton. and other members of the Black community were opening up their homes to provide a bed, meals, and community to the visiting scholars from the South.

[111:14] The congregants used a house on the new site as their place of worship, because construction didn't begin on the new church building until more than a decade later. After the end of the Second World War. Construction had been held up by a shortage of materials and workers as more and more of Boulder's men were drafted. The war ended on September 2nd, 1945, and construction began that same month, with excavations completed by October. The Daily Camera estimated that more than half of the labor was by the church members, but it's probably an underestimation. The camera also noticed the pastor himself became an expert at pouring concrete. And the men of the church got together in the evenings and worked at night. The women of the congregation cooked meals and provided home support while their husbands worked on the construction project. The first service at the new Second Baptist Church was held on June 9th, 1946.

[112:16] The community continued to support the success of the Second Baptist Church by raising money to pay for the minister and meet the expenses of the church. According to a camera article, they quote, do this by being extremely liberal in their contributions and in their work for the church. Many of the ladies cook every Sunday. Dinners for the public to raise money. The congregation celebrated being debt-free on May 23rd, 1948. According to a park ranger at the Nicodemus Historic Site, the success of Nicodemus is attributed to close-knit family members that work together to make things happen.

[113:01] Many that were related… many were related by blood, but they were all related by circumstance, and it's that sense of family that helped Nicodemus survive. The survival of the Second Baptist Church through those early years can also be attributed to community members, some of whom were related, that worked together to make things happen. But also the self-determination that the founders and congregants learned from their parents and others around them. While the church has moved locations again to meet the needs of its growing congregation, this building stands as a testament to that early community. A community that created their own industry to support the church with funds and congregants, and made their vision a reality to create an institution to support the community. And it was through the perseverance and hard work of Baldur's Black residents that the Second Baptist Church not only survived, but thrived.

[114:00] And I really appreciate being able to honor that commitment to community today. That's the end of this presentation. Does anyone have any questions? No, but maybe a standing ovation is in order for you, Claire? I have to agree with that. Incredible work. Thank you. What… what can you tell us about the… the… the image with this mural? I mean, this mural is spellbinding. Not part of your presentation, I don't think, but what… Yeah, once the, Second Baptist sold the, the church, they, in the, I think, 1991, they sold it to the, September school? That's right. Yes, the September school. And they used it as an events, or like an art.

[115:05] performance center. And then it, when September school closed. In this location, it became condos, and that's what it currently is today, but they've kept the mural. Oh, interesting. That was the first time I had heard of Nicodemus, Kansas, and that part of the story is unbelievable. Field trip. Yeah, let's go. I couldn't help but go, you know, do a little Google investigation, and they have, like, a ball, you know, an old ball field, ballpark, and… I mean, that's amazing, I mean… Yeah, they had the Nicodemus Blues, at the same time that we had the Boulder Blues baseball team, and that's a future research project. Yeah, because I bet… They traded players. That's so cool. I love old baseball history, too. I just… The barnstorming days.

[116:06] That's great. That's cool. Thank you. Yes, well, very well done, Claire, and I just so appreciate, the graphics that you paired with, with your very well-researched narrative, and I am such a, place-based thinker, so having, like, a map and seeing, oh, see you in Goss Grove, I know they're close, but, like, seeing that aerial from, you know, 1938 or whenever it was, it was like, I can start to map, like. The… these smaller neighborhoods in Boulder, or these communities, and where they were. So, stellar job, We're working with our communications and Engagement team to help take these presentations that Clara puts together, and then put them on our website, but also hopefully will

[117:06] kind of do cuts for potentially social media, or other ways to help get this history out to a broader audience. So, I really thank each of the Landmarks board members for, being willing audiences for, for this as well. It gives it a purpose, to kind of take it from the textbook and into… into the world. So, thank you, Claire, and thanks, everybody. You know, between the work that you've done, Marcy, and what Claire has, you have the makings of a book and probably a documentary. film. Dead. Should be made. Thank you. Are you offering to narrate, John? Your voice would be a great… I'm actually a cameraman, I'm not a narrator, so…

[118:03] Good. Unfortunately, I'm not a director. Boom. Well, thank you so much, and we'll continue to bring these, forward. We only will schedule them, when the agenda allows time. We might have some heavier agendas, towards the end of the year, beginning of next year, so, just stay tuned for the next one, and otherwise, look for these on our website, too, and we'll try and get the word out about them. So, thank you! Thanks, Claire. Thanks, everybody. Marcie, when you put them on the website, will you send out a little, email? That's a great idea, yes. Okay. Anyone else have any additional input, or can we have… I have one… one last really quick comment, sorry, I know, and this is gonna… you guys are gonna hate me for this, but, these 1930… I had to go find the 1938 photos in the… the digitized photos in the Carnegie Library collection, and…

[119:13] The image… the sort of snapshot of the Boulder CU Boulder campus. as sort of collected by… you can see sometimes the airplane strut in the foreground of the photo, but the photos of the campus are, like, at an amazing point in its development, including, and most people won't recognize this, but the original Folsom Stadium had a 200-yard straightaway. There was a 200-yard dash that was a straightaway that was a weird, now obsolete track event. But there is an amazing, and there's a vestige of it with a parking lot now, but of, the same photograph, Claire, that you showed, of this amazing earthwork just above Boulder Creek to support this 200-yard straightaway. It's the weirdest thing, but I'll leave it at… I mean, I'm going down, really.

[120:10] Yeah. with that. I was wondering what the… it was like a layer cake, but I. it's… have the context of a straightaway, that's incredible. And the, the resolution of those aerials is just incredible. You can really zoom in. There are remnants of that wall, are there not? There's… it's where the coaches park. That's what… that's what I thought, and… and it kind of… terminates at the… at the Arboretum. When you go up the hill there. Kind of a… It was all fabricated, or fabricated for a weird track event that no longer exists. Yeah. Fabulous. Well, I think the final thing is a calendar check. So, our next regular meeting is November 5th, and it is back in Council Chambers, a hybrid meeting, and

[121:05] That's our calendar check. And then Aubrey will send out a doodle poll for a work session about the Council Priority Project. Sounds good. Michael, will you send an email of the picture around of what you're looking at? And then let's do meeting adjourned at 8.02 p.m. Thank you, everyone. before we thought it was a nice job. I was just gonna say… Thank you! Thank you. Bye. Good night. Night.