May 15, 2024 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:04] Yeah, I went enough. Welcome to the May fifteenth, 2024. Meeting of the Boulder Housing and Pythree Board. Welcome to Casey the chair ad. and we'll open the meeting with roll call so full open here. Eric Claireman, Danny Taylor, here Julianne Ramsey Steven, Chip Hennessey dude. Karen Austin. what's that? Nice? Got 6 out of 7? Right? Yeah. Okay, great. Now, we have a quorum. Next item on the agenda. Number 2 is reviewing the agenda which I'm doing now. 3 is approval of minutes from March twenty-seventh, 2024, and we'll have public participation public who's attending by virtually by zoom, if anybody is

[1:02] ready to make a comment. Number 5 is matters from the board will be reflecting on the city we had in April. We'll be talking about future agenda items, and we'll be taking a vote on the chair advice chair for the coming year. Item 6 is matters from Staff 7 is debrief meeting and calendar check, and then we'll try to adjourn by 9 Pm. So that brings us to item 3. You all had a chance to review the meetings minutes from March 27. Does anyone have I'm sorry I'm running through, so I do. 24 days on them. I'll write this as well. I'm delighted to have you here. Do you want to say Hi! And I would say, Hi. ml, roleless. I'm happy to be here right. But I've tiny 3 sentence, bio, you want more, hey? Been on planning board for 2 years

[2:01] or 5 year terms. and I am an architect here in town with studio voice. I specialize in small houses, is 80 units and I am getting first billed in my patent pending zone system. It's under construction, as we speak. very exciting. So housing is one of my passions. It's a trust that includes the walls. So when you put. When you frame it. you get the walls and the roof all at once. So it cuts down construction, time, construction cost. We're gathering data as we speak the foundations report. It's right up the street. We'll do it, for, take it from a pyramid. An adu.

[3:00] I'll note that our meeting is during an hour late. Thanks. We did a planning reserve tour that was open to the public. And that's the area of northeast boulder that potentially could be in the next. potentially for fair amount of affordable housing in the future, basically looks like Branchland right now, and Jason has to do a very job of showing us around 11 several members of the public meeting. Wow, so with that, do I have a motion to approve the march twenty-seventh, second second second by Philip. Is anyone not in favor approving the minutes gate brings us the item for public participation? Do we have anyone waiting online who would like to address the board? Nothing on. Okay? Good. Well, we're just reason for this agenda. Item, 5 recruit inflections. Do you wanna move things, switch things around. Start with the chat elections. I guess we'll switch things around a little bit.

[4:12] so this is time of year where we like chair and vice chair and let me start with vice chair and see if anyone has a nomination for that position. Don't nominate Phillip, but we're very dedicated. It's not reservable. Well, I'd like to nominate and no evidence to vote, of course. But Karen Clareman. thank you. And do those require a second, or we go right to a vote. Frank. I wasn't expecting a second 2 people. This is great, I think.

[5:09] So. You both accept the nomination. I I happily defer. You're interested me. I would accept or I would defer if you really wanted it. Everyone's back alive. Thank you. Sorry so, yes or no, no. And you just vote. okay, if we have any other nominations before we go to vote and I'm able before we go, I wanna say that there has been a great fight here, and we talked about it, and Danny felt like he's interviewed last year and have, and that would not good time for me an outgoing vice chair, which kind of continue to be a board member approved long as this term, and really enjoy working with Danny and outstanding job, especially advising us on technical issues.

[6:06] this field of expertise. What is that? Thank you, Dan. All in favor of Karen Clarin as vice chair. my electric. But I don't have a problem with my reflection. Okay, 5 0 with one extension. Carry play with the new vice chair. Thank you very. Thank you for the book of confidence. Okay. Next the Maybe we need a new chair. So let's see if anybody wants to nominate anybody for chair. I want to nominate Michael again. I just like anomation. Well. keep doing what you're doing. Okay, that's very nice. You I would accept the nomination. We'll say that in my fourth yard

[7:02] every time so great I don't to be elected chair right following Danny's example, I did not want to be chair for my last year. So someone be thinking about stepping up in a year feature F. all in favor of reelecting Michael Jason, sheriff, have say, aye. all against. There we go. Okay. That was actually an intention that messes 5. Nothing. Thanks, everybody. 50. Great. But Philip, if you are interested. please, sir. interested by, and next year being a place to return, or anyone else, do you think about it? So that these guys don't have to English over right, but we don't even have to think about it. But great happy to be doing it for another year.

[8:02] Item, a under Number 5 retreat reflections. We had a good retreat last month. We had a facilitator recommended by Karen Clement, I thought, did an excellent job. Just love to hear any thoughts about learn anything new new priorities that may have emerged. I was really surprised about how much consensus there was that focusing on the Boulder Valleycom plan was really sort of our yeah, our focus, our mission. I think we started out talking about a bunch of different things and then realized that so much of it is contingent upon what gets approved in the Boulder Valley Comp plan. And so it it almost. but not a guiding focus eat. I was up so similarly surprised by that

[9:00] based on that consensus I didn't read. I skim through the boulder bell comprehensive plan. So some of the stuff you're discussing today. I've seen already. So that was making sense. I will also push back on that, though I think planning is a big part of the housing issues we face in boulder but I'm also mindful that there's 4 bodies that are tasked with administering the comprehensive plan. The City Council, County Commission and respective planning boils for both the city and the county, and we're not one of those bodies. I think we still play a role advising the Council, and we have a planning board liaison here. But I also think we should be focused on other issues. And one thing that I think stands out is homelessness. I know that's a thorny issue. It's not one anyone's gonna be able to solve anytime soon. But I don't think there is a board in boulder that deals with it. And I think if it's gonna fall under one

[10:02] of the boards or commissions, it's probably Housing Advisory Board, since at its core, as a housing issue. So in addition to sort of planning and development, I think we should focus on that because it's not really a I mean, it has some planning aspects to it, but I think there's more to it. We could do more to address that. Thank you for mentioning that that we did. Make a line item in our Budget Council happy to have the Board have further discussion about on the solution. It's either permanent, transitional, or whatever, but it's a great one better on the agenda. I don't know why this feels related, but it feels like another large thing that we haven't spent much time talking about, but it has come up this year a couple of times, but just thinking about how to make life better for renters in town. And I can't remember now if that came up in the

[11:01] in the letter to city council that that got left off. But you know we we talk about housing usually in terms of where can we build more? How? How do we make it? Affordable to buy And yeah, we don't. We don't get much there are time for for how to, how to engage with renters, and how to how to make their lives better. And I think that's, you know, from my background, doing eviction work. I think that's somewhere where I could probably contribute offer perspective. And I guess one observation I have about our city as a whole is, I think we actually do offer very good services to tenants once they're being evicted and facing a court order. One thing I always, and that needs to continue like that's something I view as an attorney. But how do we help people before they get to the point where they're being evicted. And sometimes it seems like you have to be evicted in order to get assistance from the government. So that's perhaps an area we can explore.

[12:08] You know. It's you know. How can you get services before you're in a courtroom? Good and I agree with both those points, I mean, I do think that's well, within our real house, and and certainly something to address, and something we've talked about over the past few years, you know, time again. And I think it's really good point is that how do we? And and I think with you and I talked about during the retreat. The notion of How do you educate the public is to the services that are actually available to map. There are a lot of services that are pretty good. It's just a question of people being aware that those services are available to not available to them in a period of nature anything like that. And I I think that's well. The same version, if we ever, you know, get back to do. Listen, sessions and stuff, you know, one of the listen sessions that I think we were talking about

[13:04] prior to Covid, and prior to the whole form changing, there's a listen section for enters. And the listener section. I'm homeless. Those are the 2 that we're talking about there. So I think I've I'm very, very supportive of that, and I think it's directly within a real house. I'm always a little gunshot with the homelessness thing, because I think there are a lot of different different boards that are also addressing it right from different aspects and stuff like that. And so Human Human Rights Commission. so on, so forth, right and so public health. There's a lot of different aspects to the the homelessness thing. But I think, renters, certainly we could become a great candidate for helping inform renters and helping advocate phone where where it's appropriate. So yeah, I think that's good for this move forward.

[14:00] Thank you. I just looking at my notes from that session and Part 2 of our discussion. We identify the Compliance Update Council seems to be taking that very seriously, having conversations about ways of updating mixed compliance or one more density on single currently single family lots. That sort of thing, the planning reserve issue which we dove right into in person homelessness. That link came up. Basic land use policy like make it easier to convert unused or underused parking surface parking the housing. Cool suggested diving into. But I'll plan more deeply by studying my use tables for the library, and not a common if you'd like and Karen, said, Okay, Karen Clement. We got this 15% goal. And and we accelerate. Yeah, in addition to that, striving for more variety of building types within that goal instead of.

[15:17] are you getting pretty heavy in one building? Type? multifamily at the moment? So then those are all good and noble aspirations. Kind of make another comment. Sure, please. Another theme that we've leaned into quite a bit is, you know, anticipating. And Jay Jay kind of directs us a lot in this area, participating what's coming with City Council. And you know, being ready to give advice on things that are coming down the pipe for them. That's maybe more important this year. If there's stuff coming out of the

[16:01] recently finished State legislature that is, gonna require code updates or compliance of some sort. Maybe there's opportunity there for us to do research or be ready for advisory. It's a great point. I think everyone's aware that that housing bills passed in the flurry at the end of the session in the Statehouse. and from one of our earlier receptions, where we had David Driskell to talk about Anthony's in California, and how communities they were dealing with. All the statewide laws pass really into housing. I think that's gonna be the next phase for a lot of communities and compos figuring out how to translate that into local guidelines. Regulations, codes, Sony. so forth. And then maybe we could play a positive role and all that. Really, really interesting. There was a tenant tenant right bill in there, wasn't there. One of the big pieces of legislation is that

[17:06] it's The landlord now needs cause to evict someone. meaning that if your lease is up, your landlord has to resign or offer an opportunity to resign, unless there's good reason not to such as you haven't been paying rent, or some other reason. But you need it's not enough. Just say your lease is up on the vacuum. and that's that's pretty big change of the land. Now. Yeah, that was adopted assigned them to law session. So that is operative law, right? But was there evidence or feeling that landlords were just addicting people so they could check with the rent, or what's the logical? I think you know I we haven't had an opportunity to explore those and play out yet. I'm not sure what the driving force was behind it. I think it has to do mostly with housing security. This idea is.

[18:10] most people sign year long leases. My landlord could kick me out at any time for any reason. I'll lose my home, and I'll be on the market that's now gone. Tenants have more security. They still grounds like if the tenant did something wrong, and then there's other exceptions like the landlord wants to renovate. Sell the property, or I think one of them is if they want a family member to move in. So there are exceptions that give landlords some flexibility. But a landlord can't just say no. I'm kicking you out at the end of your lease, I do wonder. And I I haven't seen this yet, you know. Will some landlord would say. I'm gonna increase your rent by 40 to get you out. And I think that gives lawyers an opportunity to say this is essentially no fault of action, but that has not been explored. So let's see.

[19:02] But it's I think it. It does change the nature of leasing property for residents quite extensively. That's good question, why would you even need a lease anymore? If you can stay until you're ready to leave, why would you even need at least, if the year long. Lease doesn't mean anything at the end of that year. Well, the flip side is, for for it actually offers security for land, which is a landlord wants to know that this tenants committed to staying here for a year, and perhaps more. You know most landlords don't like month to month leases, because at any time tenancies are moving out, and then the landlord has to find new tenant cases have an option for people to get out. You can always break a lease, but the leases can set forth obligation. So if a tenant signs a year long lease.

[20:00] and then the tenant one month ends is actually, I don't want to live here. The tenant could be on the hook for paying rent while the landlord looks for a new tenant. The landlord, to keep the lease in place right in most leases they can add, I mean, certain terms are restricted by law, but they can add terms about notice if you're planning on moving out and stuff governing. Who's responsible for what utilities? All of that? But you know certain there's I look at leases all the time that contain paragraphs that are now invalid as a matter of law. But there's still a benefit to entering a contract for parties for sure out. Keep interesting and I'm not prepared totally to present on this loosely. I just offering you what I you know. It almost bleeds into our next heather. Leonard. Item of future agenda. Item, I'd love to have someone come. Explain what it all means.

[21:00] especially in the context of Boulder, where we already. you know, liberalize ad use. For example, you might have some of these policies in place that aren't in other communities. So what happens now. if we have to be in compliance with the State law. But are we already are we for the most part I would say, yes, there's, some probably some minor tweaks that need to be made, but nothing too late day to use, or all the built ads. What's the current offer you use here? Can someone remind me what we changed it to. What do you mean? Like what it before it was like, you know you don't have them on so many blocks. And whatever what is it right now? Well, it used to be extremely restrictive, you know license, and you could lose that license. I mean. there's just been a long progression of listening. The rules that was done basically remove the saturation limit, which is the one that said you couldn't do. Too many of your neighbors have one. Everybody can have one. Now, one of the changes we're gonna have to make to be clear. That

[22:16] single family house in any zone can basically build an idea. And then the owner occupancy is is probably the other one. We'll need to change. So the State law does not require alright. So the the latest version I read, and I need to go quick again. We it's kind of waiting for all these to can just get past in time before committing to memory, because it kept changing. But the last, I read. the first owner has to own the property to build an adu. Subsequent owners do not. they can. They can rent both. Basically. The first owner had a document. First owner has to occupy it to build it. The second owner does not.

[23:03] Can you sell the ad? No, they didn't legalize, either, so wasn't there some issue about when, like you could, it could be bigger if it was going to be market rate, or some rule about when the 80 market rate versus affordable. we could spend a lot of time talking. But so yeah, there are some incentives in our code that we allow you to build a bigger aid to you if you agree to restrict rents that you charge, but it doesn't require you to rent. It just says, if you do rent, you have to rent 80% ami, which is basically what you would probably get on the market, anyway. kind of getting into future agenda items. But I don't wanna cut off the restrictions of anyone else, if anything

[24:01] to add on that I think one thing that I just wanted to add, I did the the city racial equity training, and they told me we were the first group of board members to do it and because I guess they haven't trained board members on that before. I don't know if you guys have done that, maybe it's a new module or something like that. I don't know. One thing that he talked about was engagement, and I was thinking about this last night when I was walking my dog along Creek Bath, and I saw a bunch of homeless people like under Broadway. But also like there's a lot of people. And I know this because I've represent a few people in these situations who are low income live in trailer parks, or what have you who don't have computers. I don't know how accessible this format is to certain groups of people. And perhaps we should consider format that allows people to attend in person

[25:05] for public comment. I'll be up to the city right? I haven't been trained on. I haven't been trained on any new technology and city council, and that's the only boot set up. updated all the technologies. So the question is, do we get to go back to council chambers? Was the answer. Well, no. I do. Okay. But other than that, I don't. I don't know where else. So yeah, let me look into it and give you a more definitive answer, because we're doing our training at the Penfield Tape building. And I thought this would probably be a better, a more accessible location for a lot of people. It is but yeah, technology is. She also pointed that out about that city employees who facilitate these meetings can be stretched thin on managing in person and virtual. So I want to be mindful of your guys capacity to handle that as well in person.

[26:17] Does that eliminate the virtual option, and have both. Well, I think that's what we're trying to figure out is like, How do you do both? And I'm not sure anyone is. Counsel is basically pioneering that. And that's why they did the whole revamp of. Well, part of the reason they did that technology upgrades to council chambers. So I would say, we see how it goes with council. Yeah, us. The secretaries are waiting to be trained on all of this new technology. They put in the council chambers. They haven't trained us on how to use any of it yet. Planning board has been meeting hybrid since the council teams have been updated. You guys do it sorry council chambers and do

[27:03] yes. but we can also. Come to the meeting virtually. and can members of the public join in person? Yes, much. Is it successful? Is it successful? Did you say? Yeah. Well, the applicant is always there in person. which is good. The public, I would say pretty much people, whether they're coming online or whether they're actually physically there. But I, somebody was saying it was technology issues. So if they don't have the technology capacity, they would have the pizza cool. I guess he knows how to do it. Probably have a lot more people that could be good when it's an agenda item. Yes. just a general public comment. not not so many, but for an actual agenda item, their leadership.

[28:05] So something that was related is something I haven't experienced yet, but we talked about listening sessions which is a great way to engage. Seems like this. Council chambers would be a good place for that. If you ever did that. I don't know. Just wanted to. It feels adjacent to this conversation. So in the past we're much better in here. I think I attended listening session as a member of the public, but I don't think we posted one for the no, we haven't Covid. I think it'd be really interesting. But what both of the topics he's all. I'll be honest like I have some sense of my more tenant issues because I practice that area of law like, I really don't totally understand the homelessness problem. So other than like what I I you know, I see, and I all that. So I think, hearing from people who work in that area, or all those people themselves, could be very beneficial

[29:10] sort of aggregating that information, buying advice to cancel. I didn't come in. We can make recommendations. and you know we was it. It was March of 2020, so we had a plan. You were. Gonna have a listen session at a shelter, Robert at the shelter. Yeah, that's where we're the homeless shelter. We're gonna do it off site. We're gonna have it at the shelter we're gonna pitch in, bring some food over there, and try to hear directly from people over there and make things as accessible as possible, right having it at City Hall. So that was all kind of in the works. I mean, I have some signs somewhere, but doing a lot of engagement around home. The issue of homelessness is that the city doesn't provide a lot of those services directly.

[30:09] Keep in mind Boulder County that provides the bulk of homelessness services. The city does have a lot of involvement. but it's a regional approach. So there's the homeless solutions for Boulder County, Hsbc. And they are technically the groove that makes decisions about how do it? set policy implement policy related to homelessness and city boulder City Council, much to Michigan, don't have as much direct influence over the other point that I make in terms of the homelessness issues, states very broad and somewhat nebulous. What aspect of what we're gonna talk about? Because if you say we're gonna have a listen session on homelessness, you're gonna have whole bunch of people from from the population coming into complain about things. You gotta have a bunch of people coming in to hear about what services may be there. I mean that that it's very variable. So I mean, if we're gonna have that kind of listen, I think we need to specify what aspect of it. You know, we're gonna have a listen on. Just say it's like, listen, session is that

[31:18] learn more about what the city and the county are doing for homelessness. We can bring staff in and share that. That's why, every time. Because but we do updates to city council twice a year. Every time Si city staff do that. I encourage every board member to be able to listen to that and educate themselves quickly. It's just gonna be the same information. I also volunteer to like. Have a cup of coffee with you, because I'm on the board of the Shelter for the homeless, and so I have some insight, and I used to be on boulder housing partners board. So I have some insight. I mean, I'm not an expert like Michael Block, who is the executive director of the shelter. But if if you want some

[32:05] like a framework, basic info, yeah, I mean the angle that I approach it from personally is, I go to court, and I help people who are facing eviction, knowing that for many of them next thing is homelessness, and the thought is all right. We understand how that process works. How do we do the reverse? Get people from homeless into housing? Whether that be subsidized housing, or all of that, I mean. And I think that I get what you're saying, like the public safety element, what the police does to police almost people in the creek. That's not really our issue here. But understanding what it is that perhaps the city can be doing to help get people who are currently living on the creek into housing. That could be an angle. I think we could learn more about, perhaps comment on using the creek as an example. A lot of homeless people live in their cars. So it's you know.

[33:05] I I think it could be a good listening session. I think we should interview some unanimous people or invite them. I think it'd be really important to have those that work in nonprofits that address homelessness, and anybody in government to be there, and maybe some developers one way or another, is probably kind of housing. By the way, the Blue Bird is having some kind of a grand opening already in a couple of weeks. I think I know about the blueberry. That's a per like 40 unit, permanent supportive housing of people who are previously homeless. That was developed by element properties and they will manage it. But there's vouchers provided to the residents, and then, the case management being provided by the Shelton. That's a great example. Not only properties, essentially, is a for profit developer, correct

[34:04] like. I would love to hear from God old minutes people like, how do you making this thing pencil? And how does it feed your business model so that you wanna do it? Give a call if we'll give us a tour. Yeah. So also, I wonder if we do the listening session there instead of the shelf. So I just really need to caution you against doing public engagement around homelessness without a clear definition. And I think there's a distinct engagement at like a homeless shelter versus just having meetings at City Hall, so that if people wanted to attend they can. You know that's there's there's 2, I think, 2 things there. So the Chamber has just recently hired, like 2 people to focus exclusively on homelessness.

[35:01] as it relates to the Chamber's perspective business and tourism and residents and things. So so would it be specific enough to your point, Jay. Say, we'd want to do a lessening session on getting people into traditional housing. Or does that be anything or focus on that? I think that'd be fine. Yeah, just and yeah, invite Scott to come. Talk about it. Model is how how they made it work. But that's not considered. Transitional housing blueberries, permanent support events so like, then you're getting into the nomenclature of temp like interim solutions, temporary solutions, permanent support of I I'm not discouraging you from doing it. But if we're trying to articulate, then it really should be. what are the various housing options cause? There has been discussion about parking, and there has been discussions about

[36:04] sanction camp grounds, and then tiny homes and temporary solutions and permanent supportive solutions and affordable housing that doesn't come with the services. So there's like lots of nuances. So that could be a decision. If you want to continue continue to consider, this idea is. what's our focus? Is it transitional, or is it permanent? I think this specific project is a good case study. Because, like you said, Why. what's the motive for start doing that? Yeah. he could make so much money anywhere. Why does he choose to do permanently supportive housing for previous sales? It's a nice case she is not. Hmm. I just wanna say kind of for the record. I'm not super enthusiastic about waiting into homelessness. I I think there's a lot better use of our time than cause. There's a lot of other folks working on it to Jay's Point about the county

[37:10] being more involved in the city. Another option for listening session might be to engage renters and see what what issues they care about. It's, you know, 50% of the city, and we hardly ever talk about them here. I don't even know what the issues are. I know there's there's issues around rent control that that people talk about. But I assume there's a long list of other things that that renters care about. So I don't know. That seems like something that we could get a lot of engagement on right? Right? I can tell you. Right control the city can do nothing about. So I think you make a great point. The reason I brought it up, and I brought it up

[38:00] was, it's, you know, we've been a conscious decision, probably 3 years ago, to not avoid the issue of home, since, for the very reason you have stated, there's a lot of other people thing is it's not really getting that much better, if any. So I feel like I almost personally feel like we've been ignoring it. Intense keeping going. Maybe we can come up with something new that we, if we learn, make recommendation about it in in my mind. It's less about homelessness per se, and more about. Are there housing styles that we don't have? Much of that can be that can like expand the selection of housing options right? So like like dormitory style, or halfway house, or tiny apartments, or like things that right now are not part of our selection that might actually help

[39:06] or might be a good target for someone who's home like a see single room. Oculus like that's where a bunch of people didn't have a whole lot of money and didn't have a family live, and it was affordable. So maybe, instead of saying, Who's gonna be the target renter. We can say, what are some housing types that we don't have. So a couple of projects that have come before planning board. One of them is the one that we're on Earl Twenty-second something like that, and it is 300 square foot units. And when we're looking at the models, and this is what the dilemma that planning board see? Yes, the units are getting smaller. And then, of course, there's the other to speak to your other type where there are 4

[40:06] bedrooms in a in a condo, and they're each rented out specifically. So they've got an apartment. The 4 bedrooms. Each of those 4 bedrooms has its own lease. So you may not know your yeah roommates. So those models are out there. They're luxury housing. So those are being explored for a market that can afford the like. The 300 square foot units that are proposed. when we pressed the developer to give us some idea on what they rent for 2,200, I guess. So. It's like. I don't know what we can try to find like. Think outside the box, what else? It's a perplexing situation that we have here in Boulder regards to how the housing stock is being used

[41:03] because it is going to luxury, housing those types of getting built, but they're not being rented at affordable rents, even though I know what I've seen on looking just at potentially moving somewhere else in boulder, which I occasionally do on padmap, or whatever there are like luxury, or they used to be old apartments that have been like completely gutted and renovated, and they're like leasing for like 2,000 a month, and they're like 400 square feet studios. So I I have seen that we're like. That's where the money is to be made, you know. Put some lipstick on it and Jack up the rent. But I think to your point, you know I spent a portion of my life in a Tel Aviv, and they have hotels there that are like 120 square foot bedrooms just for the hotel room, and then there's apartments that are like 2, 5,300 square feet that exists in New York, you know, potentially like just a small bedroom, 100 square foot bedroom that potentially could be something that lower income people are looking at, because

[42:07] when I go to eviction court, all these people are being evicted who can't, who are months behind on rent the rents like $2,000 a month for a one bedroom apartment. I'm like you're you're spending more than I do on rent, you know, and but like, are there cheaper options out there? There's there's really not even if you wanted something that's less than a 500 square foot, one bedroom that doesn't really exist. So you know, if you could fit 2 apartments in the space of one. So I'm back to the homelessness question. I agree. And I'm beating to Jay's advice like, it's a big question. There's mental health wrapped up in there, public safety. And those are issues that are important part of the solution, but I don't think it's where we should wait into. But I do think the idea of like. how do we bridge the gap between. You know, a lot of our focus on renters issues, I think in Boulder is keeping people out of homelessness, preventing eviction.

[43:00] How do we kind of focus on the reverse of that which is someone is homeless. How do we get them into housing? And what solutions are there? I just say, I think there's a confluence between these 2 issues that you just tapped into right in terms of branches rights in terms of somebody becoming homeless when they're being evicted, and at that point in time providing those solutions while they're going through the eviction process, is probably gonna be the most effective thing. Here are some of your other alternatives. This place might not work for you. But there's these other things. And so here, here's what I say, cause I do. you know, as as I stated before, share some Philips reticence to dive deep first into this issue. But what I think would make sense is Jay, as as you indicate. Was you up pretty quick for us to be a prize as to exactly what's going on now, so we have a good feel for not just what's out there, but who is doing what? And then? Maybe doing the same thing with

[44:01] renters, and then we can do that in the next few months through the summer, and then plan to have some effective listen at the end of the year on either both of those issues that are much more educated. Once we have a better feel, for where our niches in in these pretty broad fields, particularly with the homelessness issue, the renters issue, I think. is well within our real house. As I was saying, so that one's not quite as daunting, but almost as I think you know, we need to be better informed and advised to decide how we're gonna shape that and form it going forward. I think that's all the other comic. Well, if you have something that Jason is, I have something I want to respond to, and I'll comment. But so I'm kind of summarizing a few things I've heard that are fairly obvious, but I'll do it anyway. So the bowler conundrum is, we think, oh, we can get affordability or attainability by doing micro units. We can have attainability by having 10 homes.

[45:05] but because of our market, those tend to be really expensive products that don't contribute anything to just say something about that, and there it is. I mean one thing to point out about that project. It's an extremely desirable location. And it's going to be high end construction and amenities that goes into the building. And to me I actually take some encouragement that Well, for one thing, like I think rich people ought to be high income earners ought to be living in smaller places along with everybody else, having smaller footprints on the planet and buying this stuff. And and so like. I think that that's a great segment of a market that ought to. That ought to get filled. And you know it's way better than giant luxury. Townhomes that are 3, 4,000 square feet but also I would just say that. You know, I've I've heard arguments about against small units being inhumane, you know, like, like, there's a certain kind of size.

[46:13] We have sensibilities about what, what, how much space people should should have for it to be humane, and and like pushing it, having luxury micro units that are 300 square foot, I think, kind of expands our sensibilities about what our expectations have to be, for how much space a person needs. And I can imagine something that wasn't quite that nice, and not such a desirable location that with market rate be you know, much less than 2,200. I that's that's my sensibility about it. But so like, if I I just hope that you know a project like that has success, and that they have high income earners who who go and find

[47:00] they're minimalist Zen there. And and then we replicate that in ways that are cheaper on the point Michael brought up during the Tora is telling him right after I graduated college I was in what was probably the 1940 is a very high end. Luxury apartment building in Washington, DC. That was shown no love after the 19 forties, and it was entry level apartment for me and a lot of low income people live there, and I I don't know if there's science or data backing this up. But there's a possibility that this luxury units, that they're putting gloss on now that are 300 square feet 2030 years from now could very well be converted to low income housing or something, so that might be another way to look at it. And I'm sure we've all seen that where things that had luxury, features at one time are now not luxury anymore, and they're actually quite affordable. So built in fax machines to your point about microbell. I stayed in one in Brooklyn last year, and there was 10 by 10 room, including the bathroom, which is more to spend for the space.

[48:10] But you know it was, it's more of a design issue like that had courtyards. It had a roof deck stairs on the outside. So when when you left your little tiny space, you actually went outside just to up and down in the building. And you know, I think there's some design models out there that could be pursued. Because I think that issue of these spaces potentially being is not, you know, especially when you live in Boulder, Colorado, and we have all this public space. So when right I live, I have a big dog. I live in one bedroom, but I have all these bike hats and parks that I can enjoy. So it's it's, you know, and and I mean, it really pushes the thing to the notion of common space and shared space. And that really is community building. So when you see a lot of housing projects now, right where they they focus on the common area and the openness of

[49:00] the areas like instead of fenced off yards. Right? It's like, here's your house. Here's the open yard for the community and stuff like that. And I realize community building, which is what we're all trying to do here. Right? That's focused on community gets more the design and policy. I don't know how you like, mandate. That sort of thing well in in the in that, but it's policy, and that if you're saying, here's what we can do as far as exploring micro units and then shrugging off the you know, kind of baseless notion that it's it's offensive, or whatever. And the whole notion that you know it's it's efficiency of space, right? I think that there is a real policy issue there, too. And I think that's just design. It's absolutely policy. Because if you're saying this is an efficient unit, this is an adequate unit for somebody to live in and have a good lifestyle living in a wonderful community, then that's something that you can move forward on. And if you have to look at things even in the complaint or whatever. how do you deal with those things spatially. That's absolutely policy. So there are. There are criteria in the site, in the site and use review that articulate public space for that very reason is that you're looking at the whole.

[50:12] you know. So we are we. We do have guard rails up to make sure that these are good places to live, because, as you say, right, you could live indoor outdoor in Colorado a great majority of the time. It is so. Going back to listening session topic. I think we have 2 potential topics. think it's also possible on the homeless issue that maybe it's not a listening session that we just need to do it like a tour of the blooper with the developer. you know. Maybe it's more. But one of these we need to educate ourselves about. This is more than one way of doing that. I'm sort of open to the listening session idea, but also just would love to just learn more about how particular project was put together, and how it could be replicated.

[51:03] So I don't know if this, it is more appropriate for a different section of our agenda. But at some point I'd like for us to revisit the cash and lieu concept, because while I recognize that the cash and Loo gets leveraged by developers to build more units. There's something unsettling about a potential for like Williams village to get redeveloped with 600 units on a site, and it may not be that many and none of them on site are affordable, and so maybe what we want to do is advocate to modify the equation a little bit, so that if it's over a certain number that there needs to be some on site affordability, because I worry that while there is a bucket of money in cash, and Lou, Bhp. Is getting really busy. They've got a bunch of projects. And then you've got

[52:04] entire like developments with with no affordability on site. Part of that might be just student student housing, too. I tried when I was a student. You're not eligible for affordable housing. So it's it's this idea that what we need housing for students we're doing most for the most part, that money is coming from the Federal Government before but if you put in affordable housing, you're reducing the housing stock available to students. But you're saying, I mean, that's your catering team for the most part. But your point is any large development. Maybe there's a threshold where they have to provide them on site. They can't just pay the cash in there. Good Cameron. I talked a little bit this little bit about the soft line, and it seemed like

[53:02] just to ease that a little more. What you were saying is, there could be maybe a hybrid approach. where, instead, letting the developer get totally off the hook by doing cash and move, they had to do some on site. And then beyond that threshold location group. I'm the same financial commitment for them. But it's divided up in a different way. Is that that reasonable? Yeah. But I think it also relates to what Jason is like. W. When, under what conditions do you do? A hybrid? Under what conditions is cash and loop? All you have to do, and under what conditions should there be some on-site board? So the sorry they won't. The challenge. With that we just changed the whole inclusionary housing program. So it's a square footage basis, not a unit basis. So then we'd have to go back and figure out, okay. how many units is equivalent to the square footage. But if we kept the square footage calculation, but said.

[54:07] at some point based on that square footage, there needs to be on site like I don't remember there being a requirement for on site, so someone could completely comply with the square footage calculation. But it's all cash and loop, right or no. Am I missing something? So the the 20 required? It's 25. Sorry. Thank you for getting we raised it. 25% of the units have to be set aside, so that if you do it on site, that's the requirement. If you pay cash and Lou, it's a straight per square foot. How much, however much you build. you add up the total square footage. multiply it for a big project by $47. But keep in mind. So if we if we have the developer, do it. We're gonna get less cash in it right? And

[55:00] our big pitch is cash in lieu allows us to leverage 2, 3, sometimes $4 in State and Federal funds. So we're able to actually build more affordable housing. then, if we expected developers to do, or we require developers to do it, because even with there's the reason people are big cash and low is that it's so expensive to build. It goes back to the old point of conversation about new construction. New construction is not affordable. so I agree with everything that you said. but if we don't tweak or explore. Then you're going to have a Williams village with potentially 600 housing units. and none of them are gonna be afforded. and that just feels weird like, it's basically sort of like this entire neighborhood with nothing affordable. I don't know how that I don't know. You've seen our map right that shows the dispersion of afford lousing in boulder. It's pretty good.

[56:06] So if we relied too much on only on site, so that portal housing would be more concentrated. 100 question Bhp goes to. does Bhp build? They're probably eligible for pud loans right? If your tax credits, whatever there's financial incentives that I assume private developers who they're not eligible for those same benefits. So Government built housing that they can get more out of more squeeze out of the lemon, I guess right. I mean, I get your point slow taken. This kind of feeds back into our also. Say this just perspective, and sorry to cut you off certain properties that get Federal financing, which is most public housing the law in Colorado. And this is

[57:07] Supreme court color to Supreme Court interpretation. The cares act from Covid is that you need to give them 30 days notice before they're evicted. If it's a private landlord who doesn't receive that special type of cares act property funding, Federal HUD type property. It's kind of complicated. It's 10 days. So from a tenants perspective, there's certain benefits to being a public housing which is by law. Now you get more time. more notice before you're evicted, more time to get your money together, and I I just look at it from an eviction standpoint. If you're in one of those we call cares act properties, that's a that's a better place to be. If you're struggling to pick brand. I'm so thank you. what I was gonna make is that when you get these larger tracks today, you have the opportunity to do a lot more mixed income.

[58:00] although an individual parcel within. That might be all you know. Market rate luxury housing. you know. Maybe there's a dhp project next to it. That's how you get the mix, which is how it works with holiday, right? I don't know how it has any mixed income individual buildings, but Bob got block. You're gonna buy different types there. No, there's extra more mixture there because back then there, we were building a lot of ownership, right. So ownership units are scattered through right. But that's the opportunity of larger, larger sites. There's also the opportunity of building back then. Yeah, it wasn't. The rental market wasn't dominated. If we put this on the an agenda for some kind of decision point I've I will throw out one more topic and get your feedback, and whether it's something that would be valuable, that would work. But

[59:03] what if we did missing a listing session on the missing bill? Talk to people who are struggling to stay in Boulder and put down the roots here. How do we do that like? Who is it that we solicit? I'm not sure sorry. Then then a lot of people complaining about how they can afford to live here, which I get like I'm more solutions oriented. I would just, I would suggest we but for making the decision until my suggestion again. Let's take June. See if we can in June have someone from staff, or whomever right it's most

[60:00] I've got that. It provides some, you know, like an information session. Try to do the same thing in July, and we can flip, flop this or whatever for renters issues in the city, and and how city deal with that? Right? So your colleagues who I work with, and then let's decide after that. what's gonna be the most effective? Listen, session, because it's gonna be a major sea change. I mean, first of all, no, we? We still need to figure out as Tiffany and chairman. Figure out how we get over to city council, and how we do all that right to the chambers. how? How we effectuate all that. So there's a lot to go away. So before we make a decision which is still not, it's based on us, you know, pontificating here. It's not based on the meeting potatoes. Let's get that done, and then let's make a decision. And by that point. In time we'll know how we can do things from foreign perspective as well. That's my suggestion, I think. Can I make them

[61:02] elaborate on that a little bit with the proposal. So The the city has a tenant advisory committee. You guys are familiar with that at all. So that was formed. It's on the Belt. Measure no eviction without representation. And they're the ones that are actually asked. It delve into rental issues. And but, interestingly enough, that group wants to get it. Understand housing better. So they're kind of curious. What have does. And you guys are obviously curious about what they do. And we help clarify some of the roles. So what we have, what I've talked about with the chair of that purpose, Stephly is on that group is doing sort of a information exchange. So like I would go to their next meeting. She could come to our next meeting and explain what the city does. Is that the right. Yeah, but they're not an advisory committee. They don't, but they're they're not one of the 6 boards under the their advisory to staff as opposed to direct from the city council, but they're still advisory.

[62:08] and they do. I mean, they can make recommendations to city council, but I think they're also kind of struggling with what should their work plan be? No, and I think our board getting a better understanding from the the tenant side, and then also the homeless side. I mean, it's entered, at least from where I see on the eviction that that's where there the 2 need. But I think it. It does seem to me to be 2 groups of people who deal with homelessness and tenant issues. So maybe we hear from people 2 different sessions on that. So thank you. Your proposal, Denny, is to bring in someone to give us information in June. Those issues. I I mean, we don't have to. We could do one June one in July. Make a decision in August. Schedule it for October. Seems like a good

[63:03] fine. I mean, give us some lead time to, you know, transition towards council chambers, or whatever. But, you know, let's let's focus next 2 months, and that's something that we can certainly do with that much on the future agenda. or work plan. Let's focus on that for the next 2 months, and that'll update the the listen sessions that we do sometime in early fall. That's another thought is, you know, we exist to advise city Council. Do we need to get an update on their agenda for next month. few months. but it even makes sense to have document, or somebody from Gotomeeting and talk about that can ask them. I mean, they have their. They just finish their retreat right? They have their council priorities. So yeah, we can all read that. I think hearing like, this is what we're actually going to be working on

[64:05] boom. you know this short, immediate future would be. may be really valuable. Yeah, alright. I think you might tell you to give him a little bit more time. because they have to. Maybe Staff's working on a schedule and a realistic timeframe to accomplish all of those kinds of priorities. Can I ask who's responsible for organizing speakers in our meetings? Do you normally do that? Do you do it? Yeah, we all do it. But the chair, vice chair, and staff get together once a month to set the agenda, and that's kind of where we brainstorm out by this meeting, where we also brainstorm guest speakers. I mean, I've suggested the number of speakers and others have in this as well, and we can pretty much it. But anyway, because I know several people who

[65:02] city employees would support eviction work, I think, would be good, probably the same people, and I've asked them, would you be interested in talking. They're like, yeah, of course. So I don't know how that happens. But I'll make it happen if that's we, the direction you guys are okay, going so so, you know, for June Carl Giler would like to come back and talk about zoning for affordable phase. 2 excellent. So I'll have that's in preparation for another study session with Council. No, wonderful. I just want to check on that date of that June meeting that'd be 26 great. We'll be back in the trip. Good Carlos been here 2 or 3 times since, been fairly valuable. Everyone it seems to like I'm I'm in here. So

[66:00] the company, the food, and other suggestions. For what is a listening session, like training or the orientation next next month, engaging the community in a different way. But again, my advice is, we need to really define what it is you want to engage the community with before you start scheduling one or considering it, Danny, when you've had listing sessions in the past where you like, how did you at first engage members of the public to even come and several different manners. Right? I mean, do we do social media? But some people do. But you know, we we posted it and everything like that. See, just, you know, use whatever meeting

[67:11] we had a we have a really robust turnout for also mesh. Really, we did. We did tiny houses that was really identifying. We did that. It was a great form. Instead of setting up the base, we all just kinda sat around. We came down to the floor. Everybody sat around the floor. There's a lot of people who lived in tiny homes, who built tiny homes, etc, and and it was open forum for a lot of people to talk and communicate, and you know, back and forth. We had one on effective means of financing for a little housing, which was a little a little less pointed. So that's what I'm talking about, too. That's the thing. If you have

[68:00] a nebulous topic, you're gonna get a very nebulous session, and that can be incredibly unruly. Right? So the the more pointed you have a topic the more effective I think it'll be from from experience yet in the past we had another one. I can't remember what it was, because long time ago any of you were curious how addictions work. You can come to court on Friday morning. 9 Am. I encourage you to? So then, oh, Michael Collin, be there. I don't think so. Okay. That's a great idea. Actually, I'd like to do that. But it's your journeys. any other topics for future agenda items or listing sessions don't need to build it out for the whole year. We kind of put a lot on the plate already tonight. I think that's a good. This is good enough. I value the planning stuff. And like today's tour, I think that's

[69:07] that is like the big issue like the middle housing. At least, I feel that personally, is that we need to build more housing that's accessible to more people. But I also view that as a kind of a long term endeavor. And I do wonder, you know, when it comes to like homelessness and renter stuff, there might be easier fixes that don't involve. you know, 20 years of moving, plumbing into the planning reserve or something like that. And I just know that you know the overarching we have in. There is complaint stuff. So you throw that into the mixes. Right? You got pretty full plate. Okay. great. Are we ready to go to? Item 6 matters from staff? Alrighty? Good question. Yeah, no, that's a perfect segue, because, like, I said, we have zoning for affordable housing next month.

[70:02] The baseline urban services study that we were talking about for the planning reserve that's gonna be coming up this summer. So there is a lot that's gonna be going. The comp plan, prompted, was actually accelerated slightly. So it's actually some of it's gonna begin this year. cause I think Council was very anxious and wanted to get out. Didn't wanna delay just because it takes a long time. And I think there's a lot there to talk about just like you've been talking about and then, of course, you mentioned changes based on the State legislature and all the bills that were passed. So a lot of that will come back to you if we do make changes to ad use, which I'm pretty sure we will have to. You'll see that as well. So there's quite a bit coming up. the, and it occurred to me, Michael, you're or would have wrote in the letter about converting parking lots to housing, so I went to the Hawthorn Court groundbreaking ceremony yesterday. So that's

[71:02] an old parking lot, a diagonal plaza that's gonna be 73 units built by multi housing partners. Perfect example. and then the rest of it. Couple of 100 units, I believe. But market rate, expensive stuff anything you guys wanna hear about know more about if we were to get an update, as this issue matures on how the State laws will affect local policy like what's good timing? And who would we ask? Well, next month we can ask Carl. He's coming. So I'll ask him to actually talk about that. What he sees. Because that's what we need to do to do in the next couple of weeks is go through all the bills and actually read them thoroughly like I said. They've been so many changes over that I'm still unlike aware of this legislation, but it's still reading, figuring out what's

[72:01] I don't think you are unhappy yet, but we had the guest speaker. Talk about how that's playing out in California. And you know, he's a consultant former playing director here, and he said. It's just so complicated that communities are overwhelmed by the number and magnitude requirements that are being required foisted upon them by State law. I don't know if it's quite so complex here, but it sounds like it could be pretty complicated. No, I mean, I'm litigating on appeal. Recent legislative change from 2 years ago. That's finally like working its way through the courts. And it's changing how addictions are taking place in boulders. So you know it, it takes times for to work its way through the process, even when it becomes law, how does it actually play out of reality? Sometimes any people go to court and fight over it to figure that out. It's not nearly as far reaching here as it was in California. I don't know. It's not kind of nibbles around the edges, and not nearly as ambitious as last year's thing.

[73:10] This is all such making of democracy, I guess. Anything else matters from staff. No. I'm always available. If you have questions, let me know. or if there's something you want to hear about, thank you for the tour today. Can we schedule a bluebird tour, August, maybe, or September. We think about. Do you want to have both a meeting in July and August? Something to think about? You don't have to decide tonight. But typically a lot of people are gone. There's a hand raised instead of that's linked to miss public comment. Typically, she's there on time. But there's next time she can also email the board for thoughts. So yeah, think about that.

[74:01] If we particularly if we don't have a lot of agenda items. hey? I'm gonna go to item 7 debrief meeting. We started today with a really great tour of the planning reserve in northeast boulder and learn a lot about the literally, the lay of the land and the challenges future development. The options to develop city owns land which is a good chunk of that area at least 30 30 35 acres is, I'm understanding it. we had some members of the public attend that as well came back. Didn't have public participation tonight. Be did reflect on the retreat we elected our chair and chose a new vice chair, Karen Clayman. and we got some really great ideas for future agenda items as well as listening sessions and possible project tours and guest speakers to come in to have.

[75:00] And we learned that Carl Gila will join us in June to give us an update on zoning for affordable housing. I missed anything important in that summary next meeting, Wednesday, July 20 sixth, which I think is also Mike's work Day. But that's much earlier. I'm sorry I said. July Wednesday, June 20 sixth. At here at 6 o'clock. And we'll be developing an agenda before then. So anything else, before I ask for a motion to adjourn. I have a motion to return all in favor. Thank you, everybody. Where are you doing.