January 24, 2024 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:10] Advisory board. I'm Michael Chasey, the chair of, and we'll start the meeting by falling to order and roll call. That present, Hi, Julian Ramsi. Karen Austin. Aaron Clerman? Here. Our planning board liaison Laura Kaplan was going to zoom in and I don't know she's here. I'm here. Wonderful. So we have one board member absent and we do have a forum. We'll proceed with the meeting. Item number 2 on the agenda is to review the agenda. Will be after this approving the minutes.

[1:02] We'll have time for public participation in just a few minutes with 3 min of open comment. That's item number 4. Item 5 is matters from the board. We're delighted to have Christopher Johnson, the comprehensive planning manager here tonight. To review the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan, 2025 update overview. And I think our specific interest is to see how that update might benefit. The production of more affordable housing and that's, under number 5 item B will have an update on the airport discussion from, and then, see, this will continue to discuss, have issues to address in 2024 that will be based on a letter redress to the city council. Last month but did not send because council said they were not accepting letters before their retreat. Item number 6 is matters from staff.

[2:02] Probably about 8 30. We'll have a meeting debrief and a calendar check. 9. So, December thirteenth, 2023 min, you've all had a chance to review. Do we have a any comment that or a motion to approve? Thank you. A second. All right, you have a second all in favor for minutes. You're not absolutely approved. We are ready for public participation. Alaska, J, Indispensable staff help her to review the rules of engagement and then we will see if anybody is here to address us.

[3:01] Alright. See if that works. Alright, so the city is engaged with community members to co-create a vision for productive meaningful. And inclusive civic conversations. And part of this vision is supports the, principal and emotional safety of pretty much everybody. For more information you can visit the website. And. Examples are rules of decorum. Finding the bowl to revise code and other guidelines that support this. Terry will up old days during. I'll remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to city business. No participants show make threats or use other forms of. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, be able to structure, otherwise, the the ability to conduct the meeting are prohibited.

[4:00] And participants are required to sign up to speak using the name that they're commonly known by and individuals must display their whole name before being allowed to speak online. Currently only audio testimony is permitted. That's it. Okay, then we had members of the public who would like to comment. Oh, let's say you will raise your hand. Lynn, you have 3 min. Thank you for joining us. Probably know what to talk about and except that everything is housing and It's just saying in the Denver Gazette that I just sent you property tax up 25%. I can't emphasize enough. Steve Pomeranz's letter to the editor and I think I sent that to you.

[5:03] Yesterday. And it was just this last week. It's about impact fees. It's about jobs. Housing imbalance. It's about all the things that. All the subsidies that are actually generating. This crisis in housing and the and the Jared Polis policies that I think are counterintuitive and what's what's really concerning is. This Transit oriented development. Obsession with densifying there and how like you really got to read Steve Homerz's thing because it's very, very detailed and explicit and really interesting. And he's gone to so much trouble, like if we ever lose him. We've lost something like.

[6:00] Priceless. But. The the interesting thing is, you know, the more you the more housing that you put in, whether it's low end housing or high-end housing, it's going to generate demand for services. And You know, I don't know if you followed the 90 year old woman that was killed on a left hand turn. Issue on Alpine and Broadway, which is like a place high frequent nearby my place very often. And you know, there's going to be people swarming pads. You know, it's bad enough that all of this it increased density. And debatably within, It still generates more people. And the more people you have, the more those people are going to intersect with cars like Virginia, 90 years old.

[7:08] And just knocked off. So all I can say is please think about how these subsidies are affecting all this development. And and how that is really not in the common interest because all the services to take care of all these people are very costly. Open space is in big deficit. See you south is a disaster. You know, the dark horse. Development, all live the millennium, you know, bowler's not a subsidiary. Done. Thank you, and we appreciate your comments. I think most of us have. Red the Steve, fiber, and, column. So, but thank you for bringing that to our attention. Are there any other members of the public who would like to speak?

[8:03] Okay. We can go right into the, item 5 then, which, again, well, I have Christopher Johnson here. Little background for anyone messing in. I have made several recommendations last year that council adopted, designed, the, the, and we had a very general discussion about how they build a. Right, that process. And then we realize you really know very much about the Boulder Valley. So, if you're gonna build it on how it really works and what might be coming up as the plan is updated every 5 years as that coming up next year. So, thank you again for joining us and take it away. And jump in real quick. So I carry this around with me everywhere. Here's a physical copy. I'm not gonna hold that up with the camera. So I get to pass this around.

[9:03] So, to take a look at it, it's, it's, it's, that, a, a, a much more, hotel experience. Anyway, sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. I also wanted to note that Danny, Okay. Well, let, let me just begin, quickly, in production. Thank you, Michael. My name is Christopher Johnson. I have the comprehensive planning manager. So I sit within our planning and development services department. But obviously work very closely with Jay and the housing team. Transportation and mobility department parks open space really really in intersect with most of it's not all of the various departments within the city. My, background is, in planning and landscape architecture. I, used to be in the private sector for a number of years and then work for the city Denver for 5 before coming here a couple of years ago.

[10:02] Let me go ahead and share my screen. I do have a few slides that I will use tonight to just give you a very brief overview and and what I've prepared here. For the most part is, is just that it's a very brief overview and certainly will not get into, a ton of detail as to the various. Specific aspects. Within the comprehensive plan, but hopefully, will have some time for discussion after. After the slides and can get into a little bit more on the specifics and certainly if there are things that you are interested in or have questions on that I don't have an answer to right away. We'll make note of that and I can follow up with additional information after the meeting. So let me just dive right in. So the, the copper plan, in its current format and really establish this concept of the service area and the 3 different planning areas, which I'll touch on here shortly.

[11:04] That was initially established in 1977. So we are very quickly approaching a 50 year anniversary for the company's plan as we know it. The most recent major update, was, was prepared back in 2015 and adopted in 2017. So that's actually the print document that you see there. We did a what's called a minor update at the 5 year mark so in 2021 i think is that was adopted Most recently, here coming up in 25. We will. Launch the process for the next major update. The comprehensive plan used to be updated, more holistically every 5 years and that, Quite honestly, I think was was a drain on staff and in the community in terms of having to revisit these, values and policies every 5 years. And so we've moved to a 10 year timeframe, but then there's that bid point of a minor update every 5 years.

[12:07] It essentially is the governing document that we use for the Boulder Valley. And so this actually includes recommendations on land use and sort of the future vision of these areas and establishes policies. Both for areas that are within the city of Boulder but then also the in Jason, that are in the jurisdiction of Boulder County, which makes this meek and that it is actually a jointly adopted document and vision. It goes through a 4 body review process. That's the city's planning board, the city council, and then the counties planning commission and board of county commissioner. So all 4 of those bodies ultimately have to adopt and approve the document, in the same format. Over the 4 bodies. Sorry. The 2, within the city are planning board and city council and then within the county it's the planning planning commission and the board of county commissioners.

[13:01] That's an hour. See, you know, it actually they all have to adopt the same documents. So sometimes there's a little bit of back and forth, you know, city council might make recommendations. I would have to go back to planning board, etc. That same type of thing can happen. On the county side. So we, we do attempt to try to consolidate a lot of those and there's often joint public hearings. That included multiple audio so that some of that, but ultimately it, really drives, more of, quite honestly, I think more of the direction within the city, so the city really, that and owns the process. And it's the cities department that really takes the lead on developing this. So it's, does it have to be, a, and have there been times where like, One of the 4 bodies is like, no, I don't agree to that. It is, yeah, it is a process of finding consensus and coming to compromise on certain things. So yes, all 4 bodies do have to approve it.

[14:10] There doesn't have to be unanimous consent within each of those bodies, right? There can be dissenting voices, but ultimately all 4 of those do happen. So the comprehensive plan really guides all of the long range planning decisions within the city. There's various chapters within the comprehensive plan. They focus on general things around growth, population growth, the city's growth, the build natural environment. Transportation, climate, housing, or some specific chapter on housing. Community wellbeing and safety so that could send you some of our safety and flood and resilience. Types of aspects. And then it in a more practical sense, once it's completed, the way we use it and the way that the city ultimately uses it is that it guides decisions on annexations.

[15:01] For example, so when areas are in into the city boundary, code and zoning updates, which you all experienced here in the last couple of months. Development proposals need to be consistent with, with the goals and policies of the comprehensive plan. So any site review project that comes through that's on our discretionary review, we use the comprehensive plan as part of that review process. And really just shapes the built in natural environment in the Boulder Valley as a whole. The, the service area or the planning areas, that I mentioned earlier, this is the concept that really kind of was that was established back in the in the seventies and really I think established folder as But the unique place that it is today in terms of being very, very discreet and intentional about the service area which is areas one and 2 so that's essentially area one is the city. We provide. Urban services.

[16:00] So water, and summer, police fire, etc. Area 2, which you can see kind of in that grayish color on the edge of the city. Those are areas that are within the county, within county jurisdiction, but they are adjacent to area one and are already eligible to be annexed into the city. So. They currently do not receive city services for the most part. There's a couple oddballs there. But then if they were to be, then they would be provided city services. So areas one and 2 constitute what's called the service area and then area 3. Which is primarily in Boulder County. There's a couple of very small areas that are area 3 that are technically within the city boundary. But those are considered the rural preservation areas. So the green belt that we all know and understand and, you know, as you press the hill on US 36 and come down into town, that whole open space and rural area that surrounds the city is within area 3. I will note that there is a small, of areas in, which you can see at the very northern.

[17:04] Let me see if I can. Find a little. Or here or something like that. Let me see if that works. You see my cursor now you can't see my cursor anyway. Make point through it. Yeah, maybe you can just click on it on the screen. It's the little green area at the north end of the city. It's called the area 3 planning reserve. Yes, thank you, Jay. That's exactly right. I appreciate that. So that is an area that back in the early nineties, 1993, I believe, the planning reserve is an area of area 3 that was identified by the city in the county. As a location of possible urban expansion at some point in the future. So if the city were to were to expand and Ultimately, that area would conceivably change to area 2.

[18:00] And then be eligible to be annexed into the city. That's the one location that the city has and the county have identified as possible future. Expansion area. Let's say what else? Oh, the other thing I'll just mention on that topic is that the our department is coordinating with a number of different departments, primarily those that provide our services, transportation, stormwater and flood, wastewater, you know, potable water, fire protection and police at parks. We've started a process, something that's called the baseline, services study. You don't need to get hung up on the name, but basically what it is, is it's a technical infrastructure study to understand the costs and the feasibility of potentially extending city services into that planning reserve. So if the city, expand into that area, we wanna have some underlying data of what does that mean from an impact standpoint, on, city services.

[19:06] That and that process has been initiated. It will be completed before the end of the year and then planning board and city council will have an opportunity to make some decisions about whether or not. In this next comprehensive plan update in 2025. Do we consider expanding into that area? So that's that's a question to be answered at a future time, but we're just doing the background research right now. So is most of area 3 like open space? Is that owned by the city or are those like? Privately owned, but there's like. Conservation easements on them or? Some of it is owned by the city. So some of it is open space and mountain parks, managed land. A lot of it is private land and it is it does not most of it does not contain a conservation easement per se. But the comprehensive plan. Essentially again because it's jointly adopted by the county when the county is evaluating development proposals are permits in those areas.

[20:12] They use the comprehensive plan to. To basically highlight and identify. You know, is the proposed, that consistent with this rural preservation. So for the most part, it remains rural. Because of the way that this document is, you know, is, the framework is established and then adopted by both the city and the county. Thank you. The framework is established and then adopted by both the city and the county. Thank you. Laura Kaplan has a Hi, Laura. Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Christopher. Hi. Hi, I'm sorry. I'm sick or I would be there in person. Okay. I didn't want to get my germ spread around. So for area 3, at least some of that is actually like private property with homes on it, right? Can you describe how much of it is developed but developed in a rural character and not actually open space.

[21:02] That's a great question. I do not have an answer off the top of my head as to how much of that is to how much of that is primarily on. I mean, a lot of it is, is primarily owned. I mean, a lot of it is agricultural land, privately owned. I mean, a lot of it is agricultural land, privately owned, and some of it does, you know, continue in homes and, and some larger kind of a states and large lot, and some larger kind of a state and large lot, residential development, that kind of thing. But yeah, off the top of my head, I don't actually know the, and large lot, residential development, that kind of thing. But yeah, off the top of my head, I don't actually know the percentage that's, you know, say owned by the city and manages over space versus, actually developed and held by private land owners. Okay. Are they? Yes, it would all be on well water or individual. You know, systems. There might be a few neighborhoods out there that have a communal system, but for the most part, yes, it's out there that have a communal system, but for the most part, yes, it's all, well, could you give There's actually more than you might imagine. There is one that iss actually more than you might imagine. There is one that is currently, it's currently winding its way through city council and, it's currently winding its way through city council and Laura, you might be able to check in on this, but, it's currently winding its way through city council and Laura, you might be able to check in on this, but,

[22:14] 50 an area along the road that's out in area 2 but it's adjacent to the city. There's a there's a state requirement that you have to meet with called contiguity. So I'll get into the details, but you know, you can't kind of leapfrog into these areas. So you basically have to have 1 6 of your boundary needs to be adjacent directly to these areas. So you basically have to have 1 6 of your boundary needs to be adjacent directly in Jason to the existing virtual boundary. So you have to be, you know, you've got to have that adjacency in order to annex in but we we in our department we process probably 3 or 4 or 5 annexations a year or something like that. Usually they're relatively small. Every so often they can be something upwards of you know 2 to 5 acres and include 10 units 15 units something like that so they're most for the most part they're fairly small.

[23:12] The saddle motel at the mouth of the canon. So that was next a couple of years ago and we'll have the affordable units there as well. The, the, school district property in the, manufacturer. Yeah. Manufactured housing. That's the, as well. Generally the annexations are for some small. Generally they are the biggest one in the one you've probably heard about is, out which was done a couple of years ago. And, you know, so every once in a while they they can sort of rise to the level of pretty significant incorporation into the city, but for the most part they're fairly small. Can I just add on so? Annexations are really a key part because we're already talked about funding and work how we get affordable housing in the city.

[24:03] Annexation is huge. It has been. So the whole holiday neighborhood. A lot has been annexed over the years. And we have a requirement that 40 to 60% of all the residential units be. So that's so we're getting a lot of that way and the reason that that planning reserve is so important. Just because, the planning reserve is so important, it's because, the planning reserve is so important, is because, you know, housing, the planning reserve is so important. This because, housing human services owns 30 acres up there. And all the privately owned land as developed over time would have to provide a community benefit. Which is large, for the provision of the portable housing. It's about 500 acres in total, about 200 to 250 of that, about half of it is owned by the city. As Jay mentioned, 30 acres is owned by housing and human services. The majority of that is actually on by the Parks Department and was purchased with parks specific funding so it's being it's essentially being held for a feature regional park and so there's I'd say there's roughly 200 to 250 acres of potential developable area out there.

[25:13] Just again, sort of ballpark we haven't gotten into a lot of detail on that. Yeah. Or did you have another question? Yeah, I just wanted to add on to what Jay and Christopher were saying about annexations and just emphasize that point that one of the criteria for annexable land is that it has to have development potential, right? So if it's a a large estate that has one house on it in the annexation agreement we would talk about well how much is it going to get subdivided and how many units of housing are going to be there and how much of that is affordable. And as Jay said, I think it's 40 to 60%. Which is a lot bigger than when we do a typical development on land that's already in the city where the requirement is 25% affordable housing. So I just wanted to highlight again the point that was made by staff that annexations give us a much bigger community benefit in the form of not just housing but affordable housing.

[26:15] Thanks, Laura. Any other questions quickly? I'll move on. Great. Let's see. Okay. So the other primary component, that we use, frequently in kind of our daily work that's within the comprehensive plan is the land use map. So the land use map describes what land uses the community wants to see. Into the future and and also very often reflects existing conditions. You can see on the screen kind of the large yellow areas that is, that's our low density residential, land use category or land use designation.

[27:05] For the most part, that's already what's out there. And so that has remained pretty, constant I think for the last several decades along with you know some adjustments to allow for some adjustments to allow for some more internal neighborhood commercial activity, it definitely guides a lot of our future land use and transportation planning. So the transportation mobility department uses the future land use map and the projections, both the population projections and the job projections. That are produced as part of this. They use those as they're, you know, interpreting and planning ahead for and made their capital improvements related to mobility networks and other things like that. And this also guides a lot of decisions around changes to zoning and code updates. So I think that's the that's the nexus that you ran into a couple months ago.

[28:00] In the work that Carl Guyler was doing to update the code, to allow for some additional density within some of our low density areas. And I will speak to that here specifically in that each of each of those individual land use designations, you know, there's, kind of broad categories of residential, industrial, commercial, mixed use, etc. And then within that, there's a number, there's a range and there's a number of, there's a range and there's a number of different individual classifications. Most of them have this kind of 3 part description so they describe the characteristics of that land use generally sort of what does it feel like? What does it look like? The uses that would generally be allowed within there and then some of them also include. A notation about the allowed density and it's usually expressed as a range or might set in some cases might set up a maximum number. And I think this is where in particular with some of the zoning for affordable housing. Code updates that were occurring and allowing for say duplex or triplex and some of our single family neighborhoods.

[29:06] This is kind of where we are trying to understand. Have we already hit that 6 units per acre? Sort of maximum and we did, we, basically are not allowed to make zoning changes or code changes that would be in conflict. With this, so if we were to make a change that would. Ultimately allow for a higher density than 6 units per acre. The comp plan would have to be updated first. In order to allow for that in the future. That's good. Good point. Yeah. So the account hold is approved. This new zoning. But it really can't be affected until this update. Well, the way I understand, that all 4 bodies, yeah, sure.

[30:05] You know I would I would definitely allow Carl to correct me if he were here, but the way I understand the changes that were made. There are new allowances for those use types of duplex and triplex within, within those zone districts. But some of the parameters around. The size of the lot and when, when you could actually, have that use. The overall density does an actual change and the reason we had to, you know, make that sort of incremental improvement was because the the comprehensive plan was limiting us. We are doing some additional research and we're actually directed by council because they had very similar questions I think to all of you. Of, you know, have, have we actually hit that, 6 units per acre, limitation. And I want to clarify to the 6 units per acre is, is not necessarily what's on the ground, but what's allowed.

[31:06] So we need to just be cautious that we can't run afoul of that. Of that maximum. Within what's what's allowed within the Zoom, zone. So if. Yeah, and I'll just stop there actually. That answer your question. I don't know. I'm in that area. And I'm like, they want this to become a duplex. And still hit that 6 view barrier that could allow or just allow. The way that the way it's currently structured, I believe, that's currently structured, I believe, and Jay, you may actually even know this too, but your lot would have to be to allow for that duplex and because your lot size was large enough to allow the 2 units, you would not. That. That makes sense? Size or formula restrictions and there's overall density. And what are the What the chances that this could be.

[32:10] Changed next year. Well, it's a question of community values and it certainly is on the table. I mean, I think that one of, you know, one of the, What are the values of doing a major update to the comprehensive plan? Is that really everything is open? You know, the door is open on essentially everything that's in it. Except maybe the, you know, the way the area 1 2 and 3 are structured. There's some basic, you know, frameworks that aren't gonna change, but all of these policies are based on. Community engagement and the establishment of community values. You know, really this is a representation of what does the city, what does the community want to be and what to look like over the next 10 years. And if there is a groundswell of support to say we want to be able to have higher densities in certain parts of the city.

[33:01] That will ultimately get reflected within, you know, within the policies and the conference plan. Would you say the process would be about as a labyrinth plan. Would you say the process would be about as elaborate and intense to say, DAFTA, you said the process would be about as a labyrinth, to, public meetings. Yeah, I'll get, I'll get to that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I'll get I'll get to that a little bit. It's yeah, it's a big it'll get to that a little bit. It's yeah, it's a big it's a big effort. Now, as you can imagine, it's a citywide effort. So, I don't know, I don't want to, not going to mandatory, right? So it's advisory. The comprehensive plan or conference? Well, it, I mean, it's advisory in terms of it, it sort of lives at that 10,000 foot level and it doesn't get into the real details of zoning zoning is really the regulatory tool that governance, you know, setbacks and all these other kinds of things. This stays at a very high level and it establishes a vision, but it is, it is an adopted plan and. It's, it's an advisory. Doc, you know, right? But I guess my question is, so, and this is, it's an advisory document, right?

[34:11] But I guess, so my question is, so, and this is, it's an advisory document, right? But I guess, so my question is, so, and this is, the question is, right, deal with this and I guess that I would hope as we explore the possibility of how we can handle this, right? So it's an advisory document. So for instance, if you codify the whole notion that we don't consider, yeah, we distinguish, certain types of employee housing or locals housing to be, exempt density or whatever it is. You do that, you can navigate around, or plan that way if you guys snap through the master plan. You know, there's a lot of different ways that you can go. Outside of the, you know, just directly modifying the master plan. So that's one of the things that just jumps out of me and I see it all the time. I just dealt with it for 6 h before I got here in, County, originally on Zoom. But, so, I mean, I think that's just the big thing to me is I would hope that we explore all the different possibilities in terms of how we can have the to encourage.

[35:17] Cause you know, if you just change my problem with land use designations and a master plan is that they, they end up becoming de facto zoning, but they're not, they're not legally adopted. They're not a lot of times they're not even necessarily consistent with the. And there always seems to be this tendency to put, right, land is designations and master plants over zone. Here's something that went through the whole legislative process. And here's something that absolutely did not, right? And so the confluence of those 2. I just, you know, as we're going through this whole thing, I just saying that that's just, so it's my comment. Sure. I would really hope that we look at how we can blend those 2 and figure out the most effective way to affect, effecturated policy that everyone thinks is really important, which is we need to figure out, how to use how to make better use of the land that we have.

[36:09] This is a guide, right? Rarely does anybody go to this and say, I mean, yes, as a matter of process, we say, oh, the, use designation under the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan on this corner is this, but really the zone. Right. You know, and the zone can be changed by planning more than council and there's the teeth are in the zooming. Can, can I jump in on that as as the planning board liaison? It's in the code. That when we do a site review, which is where I touch this the most often, that the proposal has to be consistent with the goals and objectives of the Boulder Valley Comprehensive Plan. And it has to be consistent with the underlying land use designation as well as the zoning. And we cannot go in and change the zoning if it is not consistent with the underlying land use designation. So we do use this as a binding document.

[37:03] Yeah. No, we don't. We don't. That's the standards that everybody uses per master plan that doesn't say that to the level of mandatory this has gone up and down to the, Supreme Court, multiple multiple times and that's the whole Supreme Court multiple multiple times and that's the whole notion is that there are a lot of ways that you can deal with consistency and consistency is that there are a lot of ways that you can deal with consistency and consistency is always, that you can deal with consistency and consistency is always, it's that there are a lot of ways that you can deal with consistency and consistency is always, it's a, it's a holistic notion, right? It's consistent with the master plan. So if you read, sorry, if you read the language in here is very broad and very, you know, it's not detailed down to this many, you know, it's very broken. It's concession. And it's, it's a fine document. It's a fine document. About 7 updates that it's a lot of fun. That's what makes it a very good document and very effective, right? Is because it has a broad range. That's what the master plan should be. So I just, but there's always that, that's what the master plan should be. So I just, there's always that, that, should be. So I just, if there's always that inflating notion, right, that, you know, somehow this has the force effective regulations.

[38:02] Operates that way or if city staff when they're putting proposals together for city council operate that way. It ends up being binding in in a way that's like it's almost like a law. Right, but it's almost. I'm not I'm not trying to argue for that. I'm just saying that like that seems like and that's why I'm not trying to argue for that. I'm just saying that like that seems like and that's why I'm bringing that up because that's where it ends up getting infatuated a lot of times. I guess that's one thing I was just always had is a little handy slur is it just it makes me crazy. Advisory document says that everywhere and then, so, where you can't do that because master plan policy, but I'm like, here's $5 master plan policies that it satisfies. And so if that's the case, right? I mean, we could go to the housing section of the account plan and it'll have a lot of language in there about, you know, the emphasis of, you know, providing more housing, right? Well, Those policies should wait in balance when you're talking about, you know, general conformity or consistency, etc. So that's just the point that I bring up because I think as we try to figure this out, especially because there's multiple cooks in the kitchen, right?

[39:02] It always makes it more challenging. Dell with, you know, joint master plans before, so I just to me, but I really hope to see, you know, we can we can make certain adjustments to the code that help. So off the adjustments we need to make their account plan, etc, and we can kinda. You know, achieve that goal in a bunch of different ways. So that's just my point. So I don't know if this is the right time to ask the question, but. You talk about community values. And when and when there's a situation where there is going to be an affordable housing project or a homeless shelter. Very often the neighbors will say, well, I'm totally for it, but this is the wrong place. And so the community values conflicts with the community values conflicts with the neighborhood wants. And so to what extent? Is there power in the Boulder Valley comp plan? To create opportunities. To facilitate affordable housing so that it

[40:12] Takes the power out of the That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it does make sense. I mean, I think that there. Well, so to clarify one thing is, you know, the comprehensive plan is intended to be representative. Of the community's values, right? And less so on individual property owners or neighborhoods or whatever it may be. Right? It's really intended to be, a guiding document for the community. There are ways I would say to your specific question about, you know, how might it be used to? You know, really I think more forcefully sort of project those community values that affordable housing or all the services are important and should be located or be able to be located in lots of different locations within the city.

[41:04] There, you know, that could be specifically written into, policies. There's, you know, there's a housing chapter, there's the built environment chapter. So there's a number of different ways through the policies themselves that could really reinforce that value. Through the land use map, maybe less so just because that is much more of a sort of broad designation. But making sure that those types of uses would be described as being appropriate within certain land uses so that then the underlines down in the regulatory component. Good allow for those kinds of things. So I think there's a couple of different mechanisms we could look at, to do that successfully. Thank you. So good question. I would argue that. We're necessarily help. Because people take it, don't say I don't want to, I support affordable housing, but I'm concerned about the parking.

[42:02] Concerned about all these other in. Traffic or you know. Concerned about safety for their children or they don't want renters in one neighborhood. So it's really hard to sort of. Or if I can. I wonder it's a really fascinating interpretation. But I honestly have not heard before. About the complement. So, we have been using it as sort of this de facto regulatory structure. And I think it's because, oh, you're, you're moved to head. I think it's because of the density intensity. We're putting numbers. Right. So I'm just like, why are we specifying? That's a strong part of the compliments that you want to be consistent with that vision.

[43:02] But so, you know, I mean, wherever we can, whatever, be, kind of, whatever it be, kind of, let's go on and I can give you all the different, you know, that we have regarding complaints like our plans are not mandatory of their advisory documents, right? And it's a thing. And I mean, I've, a lot of friends, and, you know, go back and, for years, right? But it's a thing where to me it's important. I think that, comp plans end up being much more powerful when you embrace that advisory nature, right? Because I mean, just the language, right? It should be more of this vision statement. It should be more of those things. So it's something obviously as you can tell I feel pretty strongly about because the other part of that is if you want to meet so if you want to say all right this is always single family we're not only going to you know we don't we don't want the state to be doing this like you know they we don't want the state to be given this like you know they were posturing last year but we're going

[44:05] to be not only allowing, but even encouraging in certain areas for, z to allow, you know, for, property owners to allow more density over there, right? To encourage that as a means of trying to deal with the housing problem that we all have to deal with. Ultimately to me that's gonna need to be done from a regulatory standpoint. Not just from a master plan standpoint, right? Because if I'm, if I'm the, and maybe I'm saying it's because of traffic or I still feel mouse over there, whatever it is. Alright, if you're based off of master plan policy, I can challenge you when or much more likely, right? So the thing to me that's really important is The chord. The master plan in terms of you know, the hard slice to get things done. The master plans articulated the vision and for something like what we're talking about doing and what you know statewide that everybody is talking about doing.

[45:06] To me, I think it's really going to presuppose. Pretty little bit of flexibility in the master plan and then codifying something that says you know the big part of that too is because we don't want additional density to get in the hands of developers who are like well I can you know I can really, but you know, I mean, whole notion is that's where you save from a code. Like, lot of jurisdictions. Employee housing or local housing is not considered density. So you don't have to change the master bank because it's not density. I mean, I'm a hearing tomorrow and and you know we're putting up 12 units for my clients employees right both it's the density is not there but it's not density so that's one way to go about it but the master plans got great. Good. Policy language and vision language regarding employees. So that's the balance for me that really helps.

[46:00] Laura's got her hand up and I have. Some point in clarification I'd like to pursue. Thank you. I don't want to prolong it too much. I really appreciate this conversation because Danny, you're presenting a very different point of view from what this guidance that we have gotten from both planning staff and legal staff. You know, which is that the the code, the Boulder revised code says that we have to have consistency with the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan goals and objectives, which that is very broad and I don't know that a project has ever been denied on the idea that it's not consistent because you know everything's in there and there's lots of complexity and different things compete with other things. Correct. You could always make an argument that it is or is not consistent. And staff in the site review criteria update tried to make that a little bit more clear that no particular project is bound to every single goal or objective or policy in the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan, etc, etc. Okay. But the thing that that staff really do treat as at least in my experience, they really do treat as binding is the land use designation because that is also in the Boulder revised code that a project has to be consistent with the underlying land use designations. And that's one of the findings that we make every single site review.

[47:10] Is it or is it not consistent with the land use designation? So if this is not actually binding, I mean, I think staff do treat this as. They will not create zoning unless it is consistent with the Boulder Valley Comprehensive Plan land use designation. At least that's my. And I think that's what guided Carl in his analysis of how could zoning be tweaked is is it still consistent with the Boulder Valley. Comprehensive plan. So that. This is really enlightening, I think, and Danny. That's the I'd love to have a beer with you and talk about it more of. You know, why does staff treat it as binding if it's not really according to the case law and maybe get hell in the conversation too. It's, we're just planning to go here. The strongest articulation of that vision right so it is very important so i don't wanna say it's not very important I absolutely agree it's very important.

[48:07] I'm, I'm not saying just shrug it off, but I'm just saying so sometimes some of my concern is that, land, nation sometimes are held even above zoning and that can always be a problem, right? So the 2 here, yeah, possibly more confused. I wasn't thinking that. For clarification. What you just mentioned about, this is mostly pertaining to the yellow part of the map. Limitations on density and, prescriptions for a lot. In the configuration. Actually, in the code or is that in the comp plan or both? That, the, changes that, was working on and the things that regulate how develop that curve.

[49:00] Those areas, it's my band sounding. It's been in the older device code. So that governs. What council did? By year, I guess, account plan or? Well, no, it was. It was still that it was an incremental change that still is consistent with the way the is written. Now, if the comp plan is written differently through this, through this major update process. Those codes could then be updated again to be more flexible and more broad. Okay, so there's still some value with updating. Or including some language about this and the update of the plan and that could allow council to further act beyond what they did in 2023 and make it More feasible to hire that to you have against Zoom. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, right? Yeah, we can move forward after now. It's just, it's a wicked.

[50:05] So we're talking about what we should be talking about. Plans and zoning and aren't there some municipalities like keep thinking about people talking about Houston like they have no zoning and so it's so much easier to get stuff done. And they don't have housing issues. So like, and maybe I'm making that off for now, but like. It's true. Oh, it's true that I think Houston does not, regulate zoning to, you know, to the degree that in most places do it's pretty much the log less down there. In the state of Colorado. I believe there's a statutory requirement. So the state legislation that requires at least counties to have comprehensive plans and I don't know if cities are required to, but cities of a certain size, I believe, or if they're within a metropolitan planning organization as we are.

[51:06] So all the cities in the front range have comprehensive plans and are regulated through zoning. There are some very, very rural counties that don't that don't have zoning and there's just very minimal standards for you know minimum I think it's 50 acres or 30 acres. Probably not enough to have your head 38 or minimum, you know, subdivision size, things like that. But, for the most part, at least up and down the front range, and in most. Most more developed metropolitan areas there's a there's a guiding vision document and then there's there's the more regulatory legal zone. So I had a couple of questions earlier and, a lot of your discussion helped sort of like. Help me understand. What I was thinking about. And also this issue of the land use map as big so like you started off by saying that this document is a embodies values.

[52:07] And, and then, and then there's this land use map, which is like, you know, reflects community values. To me, to me, that seems like just like an absurd statement of like, the community wants this parcel to be designated as, you know, this or that and like, you know, as if The whole thing was just, you know, voted on or something every decision that was made. Obviously people are sitting in a room somewhere making decisions and that's fine. Obviously people are sitting in a room somewhere making decisions and, that's fine. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just really like, I'll just, I'm just really like, I'll just the comment is that I'm really curious to understand the comment is that I'm really curious to understand how the community process informs. The land use map. And, and then, you know, like. Right, adjacent to that is like. How can we, weigh in on what that land use, Map, ought to look like in the, yeah. So, so broadly, if I can think of a, you know, an example of how, you know, if I can think of a, you know, an example of how, you know, community values or community input might influence the way the land use map looks.

[53:08] I will, I let me land on, say sort of the notion of, transit oriented development and high frequency transit corridors and 15 min neighborhoods. So. If there's a community value around, we want to put. People in locations where they have access to frequent transit. They don't have to drive a car all the time. They're going to have goods and services available to them, maybe possibly employment opportunities, all those kinds of things. Then we as planners and really kind of our role as to interpret that, sort of broad, that broad vision that community value into the more detailed land use map to identify, that community value into the more detailed land use map to identify, okay, where are high frequency transit corridors? Where are the major stations and stops along that? How can we then change? Or update the land use map to allow for higher intensity mixed use businesses, those kinds of things that are within walking distance of those transit station areas.

[54:10] And then also think about the sort of quality of life aspects. How do we get in there? And then also think about the sort of quality of life aspects. How do we get parks in there and access to the sort of quality of life aspects. How do we get parks in there and access to the multimodal path system in the network and access to the multimodal path system and the network and those kinds of things. That's how we, you know, our group and really kind of the work with all the various departments. Would take some of those community values and then start to distill those and then turn with those into the outcomes that you see on the land use map. Can I just add it might be helpful to think about. There's the difference between a zoning map and a land. So it was owning a map. A lot of times it's what's there now. Think of it that way. The land use map is what is the vision for the future. So that's why they're not always consistent. And then there's a process to change the zoning to be consistent with that future vision. So like, terms of, a, a, a, so, a, So the zoning was industrial.

[55:05] But the land just designation was for identity residential. But I think I'm not correct. And then so we went through the process of changing the zoning to be consistent with the land use plan. But that that vision has been there for decades. This is a super interesting conversation. Thank you. Can I ask a specific question along these lines like how did the you know, this, section 6.2 one that we've been talking about many times about the at the time of the airport master plan. Will consider using a portion of it for having I remember the exact verbiage but like how did that get into the comprehensive plan?

[56:00] So that's a big part of it. The city council just gets together and says, here's things, here's changes we wanna make to the to the comprehensive plan. I would argue that Boulder is a little unique in that. Okay. I would say most comprehensive plans do not put in specific projects like that, right, or specific policies that they want to see implemented in the future. It's a little weird. But yeah, and I want to see implemented in the future. It's a little weird to see implemented in the future. So we're, yeah, and I wanna just build on that a little bit. And I think this gets, you know, you know, maybe what you're kind of referencing too is that at least historically the comprehensive plan within very detailed and and is used more as a regulatory document than then maybe it's allowed to from a purely legal standpoint or preferred to, you know, just from a general use standpoint. So one of the, you know, I will say that one of the one of the aspects that we as as a team are working on, you know, this year as we kind of ramp up and plan ahead for, the update process is to.

[57:10] Meet with all of our individual departments and better understand how they're using the document more on a daily basis and to understand what's working, what's not working, and my suspicion and again, and I haven't, you know, gone through this yet, but, my suspicion is that there is There is perhaps a little bit more detail then is. Useful in in the document and it ends up causing some trouble sometimes like I think this conversation around changes to zoning. Is one example where there was a little bit, you know, there was detail in the comp plan, which is important. You want to be able to really clearly communicate with the vision is, but it also. Got to send a little bit of a pickle in terms of, you know. City Council and others are looking to make some changes but we can't yet right because there's inconsistency with the comp plan.

[58:06] The other thing are some specific projects, you know, might come along and they might be great projects, they might be fully supported by the community, and yet there might be some policy or some other component within the comp plan that becomes a limiting factor. So, you know, my sense is that this update process. Coming forward in 2025 You know, really one of the things that I'm thinking about is how can this document be? Simplified, not necessarily in terms of its content, but how can it be simplified so it's quite honestly more useful to staff and community members because I think for the most part. Let's document gets used by a very, very select, you know, group of people, either that, part in the community that really just dig into this kind of thing and really kind of have the educational understanding of how to use it and then city staff at a very sort of granular level and then some of our, you know, advisory boards and things like that.

[59:10] I would like to see more people have a connection to it and at least find use in it and, you know, be something that's more accessible to a larger number of people personally. I think that's I think that's wonderful. That's great. You know, since the same notion if you had too much policy statement and a code. Cool. How do you utilize that? Right? So I'm saying, well, because it says in the code, like, but there's no nuts and bolts there, right? So it's the corollary that is for the corollary that is for a master plan when it gets to particular like that is for the master plan when it gets to particular like that's when you start getting into that is for the master plan, when it gets to particular like that, that's when you start getting into that sticky, right? But the in terms of, you know, you can have this beautiful articulation of what this vision is, the next 10 years or even longer. That's to me where it becomes a much more powerful document as a land use stock unit and even more legally enforceable.

[60:00] So that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Can we keep that? I've got just a couple more slides. It might just kind of give a let me just kind of get through a little bit of an overview and then I'll talk a little bit of an overview and then I'll talk a little bit of an overview and then I'll talk a little bit about just the process itself. I don't have a ton of details on the process itself. I don't have a ton of details on the process just because we're really just initiating that. I don't have a ton of details on the process just because we're really just initiating that. Conversation to kind of develop our strategy but, I did want to just bring up because I know this relationship between the comprehensive plan and zoning is. A bit confusing, even for people work in this arena every day. It's confusing. But the, so the Boulder revise code, that's what establishes our zoning and each zoning district legally regulates how your property can be in the utilized. There are these 3 different components of ours the way our zoning code is structured. We call them modules owning code is structured. We call them modules. So there's use form and intensity. So we call them modules. So there's use form and intensity.

[61:01] So the use obviously regulates what is a, what you can, you know, what you're allowed to have within the structure. So the use obviously regulates what is allowed, what you can, you know, what you're allowed to have within the structure. The form is how, what, the form of the structure, is, you know, how it's realized in 3 dimensions. So that creates your, setbacks, height limits, other things like that. And then intensity is the actual amount of stuff you can have in there. So whether that be a number of units per acre, or, you've probably heard of FAR, for, area, ratio, so, that's, the, amount, of, square, footage, you, could, the Laura's point and sort of the way that, you know, we, we use this and the way that our development review team uses it and code updates is that they do need to comply with the land use map and the land use designation. When there's a site review or there's a proposed development that comes, comes through and it includes a change in zoning or a change to the actual code itself, the underlying code itself. That must align with the comp plan policies and in particular those land use designation. So that's where that's where there can be a route sometimes between, you know, what, might seem like a good idea, but it's in conflict with some of these underlying community values.

[62:16] The other thing I wanted to mention is that, the city now has something that's called the sustainability equity and resilience framework and that may be new terminology to a lot of you. It's really more of an internal guiding document for the city as an organization itself. There are, 7 pillars. Or objectives within that SCR framework, environmentally sustainable, safe, economically vital, responsibly governed, livable, accessible, and connected, and then healthy and socially thriving. Within each of those objectives, there's a number of goals, that, again, the, the work that we do as city staff on a daily basis is is all in you know the aim of making progress on these very big.

[63:05] Kind of societal, quite, frankly, goal. So the SCR framework is very much aspirational. It's, you know, probably will never achieve an accomplish that fully, but it's something we're always driving toward. Each day. That did not exist in 2015 the last time we did the comp plan update and so it's very likely that through through this next exercise through this next update. Some of those, some of those kind of 4, pillars of the city as as an organization will, will filter into the comprehensive plan and then the comprehensive plan informs a lot of these other underlying things that help guide the work that we do on a daily basis. So that brings me to the next update. So as you saw the printed document from, you know, about 10 years ago, we don't know what the future holds.

[64:05] Right? We don't know what the ultimate outcome of the next comprehensive plan is gonna look like, but we have initiated, all of our initial. Research, and scoping of the project itself, like how, will city staff actually execute this project, engage with the community, how are we going to gather feedback from boards like you and others? And developing that strategy we are scheduled to begin more formally with public engagement and really formally kick off the project in early 2025. An engine it's about a year and a half to 2 year process that for body approval takes takes quite a bit of time and it does provide this opportunity for us to meaningfully incorporate that SCR framework and other, you know, really major policy shifts that The world's a different place than it was in 2015 and so I think that the complex is really right for some pretty substantial updates and

[65:05] as I mentioned before, 2,027 will be the 50 year anniversary so we're kind of aiming towards that as a, a milestone. One thing that does. Complicate the process just a little bit is that the city is moving to an even year election cycle. So there, will be elections either on the city or the county side or both. Over the next 3 years. So that's just something. That we're kind of navigating. In terms of how, how we strategize the sequencing of this, the timing of it. And who ultimately is, you know, going to have, you know, the ability to weigh in on this and then go through that approval process. But this, diagram sort of shows the general, you know, the general sort of sequence of events this year is really some initial research and scoping of the project, community process will be probably like 15 months or so kind of all the way through the 2025 and into early 26.

[66:11] And then, in 26 really just been taking that, that information, taking that input, starting to actually then translate that into the plan itself. And then going through the adoption process. Or possibly like 26 there's still some some questions around. We could get really far along to the end of 2026 and everybody's on board with. What they think the bull, the, comp plan is gonna be. And then there's an election. And City Council goes, you know, I don't like it any. That's conceivably possible. That's one thing that we're considering as far as our timeline and how we sort of navigate that. That's one thing that we're considering as far as our timeline and how we're considering as far as our timeline and how we sort of navigate that.

[67:09] And, and I would say also, The community process, right, is that sort of 12 with 15 months window or so through 25 and early 26. And so that's really when the bulk of that establishment of community values and that's really what sets the direction. The rest of 2026 and then through that adoption process is really just documentation of that. So. Most likely. I mean, the one good thing about elections, right? Not everybody is up for election at once. So it's only a portion of the body. And so at least half of half of council would have been part of the process and would sort of understand that and have been part of the process and would sort of understand that and have been part of those conversations. So. But it's a great point. Definitely watching it. Seems to come up every day.

[68:00] It's like, come on, It seems to come up every day. It's like, what's going on here? You know, so here you could use expedited so that it's done and adopted. That question has been asked. We're exploring that. That's as an option. I think the one. The one. I won't even call it a hesitation, but the one consideration I think is that this is This is really important and We don't wanna shortchange it. We don't wanna shortchange the community either and we wanna make sure that everybody has an opportunity to really to weigh in and has the time and space to do that. It's certainly possible that we could accelerate, but that probably means we would have to narrow the scope and only make more surgical changes as opposed to more holistically really. Really looking at it so, where we want to make sure we give it the time that it needs, but it's absolutely a consideration and we're We'll be working through that this year. Thank you. Yeah. I think this is my last slide. So, Really, what is your role in in this process?

[69:08] And I think this is a great opportunity here just this first meeting. For me to provide some information and to, you know, bring you up to speed sort of on this and what the process looks like. But then. I would ask you to help us identify if there's any key research topics that you want us to be exploring, you know, this year, are there, you know, really, sort of specific housing issues that, you already know of that is a, you know, this is a wrench and it's in there and we got to get it out, you know, that kind of thing. And then actually once the process starts, you know, participating in that, in that engagement process, how do we engage with a lot of your stakeholders? How do we engage with a lot of your stakeholders around housing issues? How do we engage with a lot of your stakeholders around housing issues? What's the best mechanism for us to connect with people? And then ultimately providing feedback to us as we get into the process and start to develop those draft policies and changes to the latest map, that kind of thing. And then participating in that adoption process as well. But that's it. I, yeah, happy to do it.

[70:13] Yeah, I have 2 questions, comments. First of all, would be, there's a lot of innovation going on. Down the policy level and how and that. He observed tested. Yeah, great. That's great question. So a couple of thoughts. We, we have been, definitely tracking on a lot of the state use. Bills that are starting to be a few have been introduced, but there's a couple that are still on the work. So we've we've certainly been engaged in that process to learn more about those. Effects they may or may not have, you know, on the city. We, we just hired a great new staff member, to help us with a lot of our research activities.

[71:03] And so she's already started to investigate on a number of different topics. Some best practices, research and other, you know, pure cities and other things like that. So we have a dedicated staff member that is helping with all of our research efforts. And so that's another, you know, thing that we do. Her name is Tess Shorn. She's a recent graduate from CU Denver. She's a recent graduate from CU Denver. She's a recent graduate from CU Denver. And yeah, she's, she's great and she brings, she brings a great. Academic, you know, brain to this. And so her, for research and then just documenting, you know, the sources where that information is really great. We hope to, you know, be able to share a lot of those. Things as we, we will ultimately, meet with planning board and a city council later in the year as we get, you know, closer to, a more fleshed out scope of work and schedule and strategy and we'll be sharing some of that preliminary information at that time.

[72:07] Not to me. When you talk about, measuring community values and input, there's like 2 ways to look into that. And what's good for everybody and, given the goals, the cop plan. Express community values and then the other is Well, it looks like a neighbor the way it is. You know, don't change anything. And then both of those are valid viewpoints. Sure. How do you balance it when you go this process? Yeah, but you know, I'll give you an example because I live near Alpine Balson over here. And you know, I know I went to all the meetings and there were a lot of people. And you know, I know I look at all the meetings and there are a lot of people, like, I'm a big deal. And you know, I know I look at all the meetings. And there are a lot of people like, I don't know, they develop to do my own, but sure, it's what we probably will get. Good.

[73:02] I'm happy about it. Doing my home, but sure, it's what we probably will get. Good. I'm happy about it, but not many. So it's like community values prevailed in that case. Yeah. Yeah, I do think, you know, for the most part, we, we as a department and really, I think as an organization, we are, we are focused on what those values are that are going to elevate the community as a whole. Certainly there are there are some constituencies. That are more vocal than others and we listen to them and you know try to make and try to respond as best as we can. There's also constituencies that are underrepresented and have been for decades. So, you know, those are really the voices that through. Our engagement strategy we really hope to tap into people that don't typically participate in these kinds of activities, some people that don't have a voice, you know, and the seat at the table. You know, I, you probably are aware we have, you know, we haven't dedicated communications and engagement department within the city.

[74:02] We have an embedded, engagement, liaison who, Vivian Kessler, Woodbridge who is part of that engagement. But she sits with NPNDS and specifically sort of sits within our comprehensive planning team. So she will be, very critical to helping us develop. And craft our engagement strategies so you can reach those people in those voices. Yeah, and I think, you know, That. Elevating those voices and really capturing that and burning from that. That's something that happened very often in these city processes. So that can very well, you know, influence and make some changes in the way we ultimately land on. So we're not, we're not focused on, you know, some of the, some of the louder voices that we hear from typically and really try to think about some of the louder voices that we hear from typically and really try to think about the community as a whole. Thank you. And other questions for Christopher? Yes. You did a really good job of explaining a very difficult, very difficult, yeah, documented conception for Christopher, yes?

[75:11] Do a really good job of explaining a very difficult, very difficult, yeah, documented concept in a lot of things to this document since it's beginning. I mean. We could spend, he's talking about it, but yeah, you got a good job of explaining this. Let's be named Chris to understand the contact. Yes, there you go. Really, really good. Can you go back? Just for the fun. Because we're talking about this thing that really governs our way of life in this town. Cause we're talking about this thing that really governs our way of life in this town. That really governs our way of life in this town. This thing that really governs our way of life in this town. You know, the, we're really area one and area 3 at this point, right? The gray area twos are significant enough, but matter and they're pretty well, the grey area twos aren't significant enough, but matter and they're pretty well, you know, annexability of those All that green there.

[76:04] Came about by 2 things. People either selling to open space. Or the county down zone in their property to one house per 35 acres or whatever and effectively having open space even though there are houses, there's very few of them. And that is what we all love. About this town, which is in this area, which is great. But what it does is it constricts supply and. All we have is the yellow and the middle and that's what drives the prices of everything up because it's so great to be here and there's nowhere to go. And we love that, but then prices go crazy because everybody loves it and it becomes a commodity and people pay more and more to be here. And then we're sitting around the room, a whole bunch of people trying to figure out how to make it more affordable. It's there's just a lot of conflicting. Goals, you know, that have come through this but But this right here is very unique because to turn that in that green into white or yellow, different colors.

[77:01] I'm saying a lot of people have to approve it, you know, and that's rare. That's not the idea. You know, and that's rare. That's not the idea, you know, and that's rare. That's not the idea. You are government agreement between the county and city. I don't know how many of those exist in other counties and cities. So the county has. Tremendous influence and control over our growth. And that was done on purpose. By the Paul Danishes and the Ron Stewarts and those guys back in the day. It was done. This was this document was drafted and created. Who make it really hard? You know, to do anything substantial outside of. Area one, which is that, you know, the, area. Which works for a lot of people and it's great for a lot of things. Well, it's not great for providing housing to everybody who wants it. You know, that's just. Intended or unintended consequence of this document. Yeah. And you know, well, love driving through that green area. It's wonderful. But it makes everything in the white area really, really expensive. Yeah, I mean that in part, you know, city council gave, you know, gave direction to our, team, our department to proceed with that urban services study for the plan.

[78:18] That initiates one is a multi-step process. So that, initiates what is a multi-step process, but at least It, it, the baseline information, right? And ultimately, And I don't wanna get too far at the weeds on this, but you know, it ultimately gives, planning board and city council an opportunity to say as part of the next on plan update, we want you to explore the planning reserve in a more robust way as potential expansion of the city. There's a couple other things that happen, you know, sort of happen after that that would, you know, more formalized. That process develop a plan for that. Obviously understand the infrastructure impacts and the amazing and all of that, but ultimately at the end of the day.

[79:02] It is possible that, those 4, those 4 bodies could approve. That would ultimately be the first city expansion in 50 years. Aside from these incremental annexations. But it would authorize that and it would then, you know, convert that area into area 2 and then individual, you know, property owners could conceivably come forward with annexations, but. That won't happen quickly. You know, but it's it is it's, intentionally linked to this comprehensive plan process where we can gather input and if there's, you know, there's community value and support around moving into that area or at least exploring moving into that area. I don't see a lot of city council members kind of going the other way. That's ultimately what we find through this engagement process of you know, we're, trying to understand through the urban services study is Could we move in there?

[80:05] Like. Physically and feasibly, can we afford to extend city services, you know, water sewer, etc, into that area. Those next steps in the process are more about should we move into that area? That's the question for the community. I understand it does. But on that note, just self of the planning reserve, there's the church on 20 eighth and Irish. That's an annexation. As far as I am aware, it is. Yes, I think the last. The last I heard about that project, I think they're trying to work through some of the annexation agreement. You know, components, but I, Yeah, yeah, I don't know. As far as I know, it's the main port, but I, I haven't actually heard anything in a little while.

[81:03] Yeah, there's some, there's some really hard, I think like utility extension issues there and just some other things. My memory is correct. I think we did make a recommendation in 2023 and currently. So you do. Do the research. This area to the area 3 and let's see what we take. Yeah, and I just wanna reiterate. Yeah, I appreciate taking a daunting task and, you know, but certainly not trying to make it more, and I really do appreciate the contemplative approach you're taken to because I think that's what makes the You can, on, on, you have that kind of. So appreciate that a lot. And that's for Jay. So are they gonna release a paper back version of that?

[82:08] New legislative proposal related housing, but some of those could potentially force any municipalities hands on some of the issues. Conceivably, it could. Yeah. 2 to 3 to 4 year kind of time, or something, you know, for cities to comply with those state laws, but it's, there's some similarities to, you know, some of the bills that were introduced last year. They basically sweat a lot of those out into individual components as opposed to one giant. Yeah. I have a comment and, when I look at this document, I immediately go to the housing section or the land use map. I have a comment. And, when I look at this document, I immediately go to the housing section or the land use map. When I look at this document, I immediately go to the housing section or the land use map and I see it. I just see it through that lens. But there's a whole bunch of other stuff going on here in the plan.

[83:03] I assume Tab is similarly interested in having you present and they see the world do like the lens of the land use and parking and, speed, so, but maybe there's not something in the comprehensive plan that's quite as pertains as much to transportation as like the land use map and, I'm just kinda curious, there is a related, plan called the transportation master plan or the TMP, that, is pretty specific as to, where future, road improvements. Like multi-use path connections. Those kinds of things that's a companion to the count plan. It does get updated on a slightly different schedule, but. Those 2 things talk to each other and, really the, the comprehensive plan is intended to be a use and transportation plan because those 2 things are so and a girlly linked.

[84:12] But the map just the map doesn't show up, you know, sort of in there as part of that. And then just kind of a related thing. One of the things I worry about. I live between US 36 and foothills. But, yeah, and I commute up and down the bike way I knew is 36. So I feel like I'm breathing a lot of air pollution. And so I'm looking for the air quality section. And it's 3 sentences in a paragraph about this big. And, So I'm just kinda curious like, you know, that seems like a huge thing, right? Like wildfires and, we've had lots of smoke and then there's just lots of traffic in. I don't know if it's getting better. It seems like it's getting worse to me. Like there's Breathing along the bikeway is awful. And so, What is the comprehensive plan? It, it just sort of just says, hey, this is what we'd like, but there's not really like, we can do or yeah, there's There's I will you know I would say there's definitely more limited direction on some of those aspects.

[85:09] We do, I have a suspicion that, This, this next go around understanding that, sustainability, equity and resilience framework is, is gonna have filter into this more so than it ever did before because it didn't exist before. But my sense is there will be probably a more robust section on climate change and some of the impacts of that. But my sense is there will be probably a more robust section on climate change and, some of the impacts of that will be probably a more robust section on climate change and some of the impacts of that and particularly as it relates to resiliency or, a more robust section on climate change and, and some of the impacts of that and particularly as it relates to resiliency or, nature-based climate solutions, tree canopy, you know, a highland effect. Because we're talking a lot about adding additional density conceivably within the city and in particular around. You know, transit corridors and some of our more urban locations like Boulder Junction.

[86:05] But how do you balance that, urban development with the character that I think we all appreciate about Boulder and the nature of that, surrounds us, but also infuses into the city with Boulder Creek and all the green waves and things like that. So My sense is there's probably gonna be more of that in this next iteration than there has been. Historically. So, just we have better data. We have better science and, you know, we'll work closely with our climate department to get that information in there. Discussion of. Preserving the community character wild. That's fine. Higher density, how do you also balance that with the livability component of how do you, you know, create playgrounds for kids to plan how do you great tree can be in shade and you know places where people are gonna actually feel comfortable in those in those environments because There's a balance there.

[87:01] You know, you recognize it from an urban design standpoint. Toll buildings, taller buildings in and of themselves are. Not that great to stand next to, but if it's a tall building that has activity in things happening on the ground floor and there's tree canopy and there's a comfortable walking space and you know a more designed environment then it feels pretty good. You don't need a field trip to Copenhagen. Right. I'm there. Open our, Okay. Hey, take some more. There is no for kids, right?

[88:15] Legal pizza. Yeah, I'll tell you a fascinating thing about the company. When Philip was asking about the map, so. Anyone can request a change to the land use definitions. It's an open process. It can be a property owner. It's really interesting. And so we have to collect all that information and make it determination if it meets all the criteria. To consider a change. I mean, I could give you an example because I have lots of random thanks. People just come forward with like, Hey, I have this value, this thing I want to do and can be people just come forward with like, hey, I have this value, this thing I want to do and can we have I mean obviously city council did that so but people can do that too.

[89:00] Yeah, I mean, a degree, 3 night rate, it's not like, you're, spy paragraphs insert that in there. Right. No, the land use designation, the mapping is that's unique, where someone can say, I want this designation. Yeah, we have an open call essentially for any property owner that wants to propose a change. Doesn't mean it'll get approved, but they can, they, submit an application or both chain. Questions that you've finished reading. Jay and Christopher, is that is that only during the update or can they do that at any time? Is it only when it's open for update? Yeah, it's only during the during the updates. I mean, you can also request a change as part of, you know, as part of a site plan, right? For a rezoning application, but But the kind of community wide approach is just during those updates. Okay, and during site review they can request a change to zoning, but can they request a change to the land use map?

[90:02] I thought that That was only when the updates happened. Actually, great question. I know you can do it in Portland, it only cost you $30,000. That's equitable. There you go. Hi, Janelle, I don't know the answer to that question. I will I will ask Charles. Yeah, doesn't the Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, it is possible. Significant changes, from A to B to C, leads all 4 bodies. Last project. But can you actually, you're gonna do internal changes with this. Just if it's within the city, it's to come into compliance with an area plan. You can do that just within the city but Yeah, the larger kind of. Overarching changes that takes 4 bodies.

[91:04] So even if it's mac in the middle of the city boulder. The County Plan Commission and the LCC still have no because usually there's an area plan, a smaller subset, that, guidance. So as long as we are changing the land use map. To come into compliance with that underlying threat area that's allowed just at city level. That's right. The county differs to the city on city issues. And they will offer account account. That's right. That county differs to the city on city issues. And it will offer account. That's right. That county differs to the city on city issues. And it will offer account account county specific. That's right. So if you have a proposed land use change, can you request that all 4 of the governing bodies Consider it and approve it outside of the or it's only like it's only during that time, not during that time you have to wait and ask. It's only during that time. If it's not during that time, you have to wait and ask.

[92:05] By 35 years to show up with your question. You know, unless you're lucky enough to live in an area that's doing an area plan and then you know it's possible that that can change. We just, you know, for example, we just made. So changes to the land use map around full reduction as we made an amendment to that existing plan and then we took those. I'm planning like use map changes to city council at the end of the year. So we'll get it then as possible. But that for body only meets only looks at it. And so this is a big year. Yeah. And what would happen is they tried update every 5 years, but it took like 3 years after the 5 years.

[93:02] But it took like 3 years after the 5 years. It took like 3 years after the 5 years. It took like 3 years after the 5 years. But it took like 3 years after the 5 years. So it's like we're like 3 years after the 5 years. So it's like we're, a year 8 by the time you get anything else. So it's like, oh, push that out to 10 because we Right, well, it's very easy to go home. Thank you again. Next item on the, is the airport update. Conversation but . But thank you again. Thanks. Good afternoon. And Philip is going to update us on some pretty interesting news. Since that is gonna, provide a report to City Council in February. That's just a wrap up of the airport community conversation. Community working group that I was the headway is on for. Laura was the planning board liaison. Ryan Schoohard was the tab, liaison for.

[94:01] And, there's, it's just gonna be like, you know, here's what we learned. There's no public discussion, no action items just to kind of a informational report. But simultaneously they're also producing research on. Feasibility, shutting down the airport and there's, that's, gonna be. Presented in March. To be determined date. And, The kind of 3 main things are. The legal aspects of it, you know, what, from the layers perspectives, what's going to take to challenge this in the court system? There's the economic considerations. How much if we start taking money from the FAA, how much? What's it gonna cost bolder to run the airport without FAA grant money I don't know if that also includes, considerations around the economic feasibility.

[95:03] Around the market value of the the land and how that would affect the housing development. Plans that you might create. And then they're also looking into the FAA response that, you know, they're engaging with the FAA and getting responses from them. I haven't heard anything about what that might be. Except from what we learned before was just, you know, some guy named John, and vendor was like, John Denver. Yeah, he was, he was, a, so I'm, I'm not sure how that engagements going back, but I understand. So I'm not, I'm not sure how that engagements going back, but I understand we're going to find out about so. So that'll be, that'll be a hearing. And so then, so you staff may ask the, council for direction, again, whether it accept more grant money, whether to, consider a housing option and, adjacent to that is that how's you know like should we develop a housing plan.

[96:15] Should we shut down the whole housing thing and just focus on, the airport master plan and expand and improve. And then, and then there's this, ongoing thing about unleashed fuel. Can we bring on the fuel to? To the airport. So, those are kind of the main 4 things. To do this, we don't allow it right now or what we're asking for. They will do it. I don't get the unlimited fuels, but just as. Okay, well, Right now there's lead fuel. And, we want to get rid of it. Yeah, that's part of this discussion. Whether or not actually because you know it feels being burnt in guys right now and people who are living under it don't want it between now and whenever a housing.

[97:09] Oh, I got some. So that's for giant fuel for, the airport great. It has been some buzz about the possibility. This is just sort of from the room, there has been some buzz about, the possibility. This is just sort of from the room or mill, I think, but some, buzz about the possibility of a ballot measure. Or, considering shutting down the airport if city council feels like it's like. The democratic way is to, vote on. So that's. That's a possibility. Like next, like next November. That's a good question. I would assume so that you know that was gonna get put together. I think about It's possible that the city council could put a ballot measure on if they don't if they feel like it's something they want people to vote on, but there's also some grassroots that that might be willing to step in and get the signatures and get the signatures for relevant.

[98:21] So there's also, yeah, there's so there's also, right now there's, a grassroots effort from some neighborhood. Activists, who are putting together a petition. For, the March meeting. So it's not, it's not an official city of bolder, petition, but it's, it's a like a show of support petition to say. This many people responded to our petition and. We're giving you this feedback. In advance of this March meeting when all these. This all this discussion is going to be discussed. So, that's, live right now.

[99:03] There's, there's a website called Boulder Airport Petition. Dot. So, some, the activists have been putting together a website and they got a form that they could fill out. That's of interest. I think that's all I've got for the Actually. Wow. Well, I can forward this to run a little probably coming away anyway, but the header on the addition is Let's turn the bolder airport site into one of the best places to live, work and play in both of Colorado. That's a her a couple of 100 million bucks. We're, we're not gonna, you know, any movie. That's like, no problem, do it.

[100:00] Like I'm sorry, and February have to weigh in on this. March meeting. So. We've talked about this at night, so I don't think I need to leverage. Would it be in the form of a letter? It's got to So, are we gonna have a have meeting before them? Before that next meeting? We need to be drafting something now. I don't know. I there's 2 meetings. One is the February report about the community conversation. You don't need to have something to that. But the other one will be in March. At the date. It could be if it later than March, but. So I think definitely. We'll have the meeting before that March. I'd be supportive of us writing a letter. Okay, the recommendation, whatever I had, sure. I would I would like to see. What can we do?

[101:08] Yeah. Yes, We'll get back to you. You know, which aspect that you's concerned about the economic or the legal or the FAA? Well, for sure. I mean, so yeah. No one thinks it's always concern is there was like, well, yeah, just, it's the agreement. For 3 years and you lose, that, where's the lead you? So you know, Chevron differences going away. So you know, Chevron differences going away. Oh wow. It's sort of barely related but actually could be very related but actually could be very related but actually could be very related but actually could be very related but actually could be very related but actually could be very good. Chevron that is this big thing going on US Supreme Court right now, is this big thing going on US Supreme Court right now, which is kind of create a lot of up people in the regulatory framework.

[102:00] Perfect. It's really really scared me now. You're busy too, but yeah. I mean, I just like to see some of that stuff and just see. Kinda how that all breaks down because I think I think it's It's really, Laura has her, hand up. Yeah, I just wanna say, I agree with Danny. It would be ideal to see staff feasibility research before you have to wait. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think there's a timing issue here where you At least according to staff, they're going to present the research for this March meeting and ask City Council for direction at the same time. Oh, jeez. And it's a little unpredictable what the city can do at that March meeting. So I don't I don't know I mean they'll probably have a memo in the city council packet that explains some of that research, but you'll just get that about a week before the decision. That Could be made. So it's possible that nothing will happen at that March meeting that no decision will be made, but it's not a guarantee.

[103:01] So. The March meeting might. Give some solid direction on either. Pursue the housing plan or shut the door on housing and do an airport master plan or it could be anything else. So You know, I would recommend that if you want to weigh in and say, please keep the housing option open. This is a good time to do it. I think Ideally, you'd be able to wait and see the research first, but I just don't know if that timing is going to work out. When you say this is a good time, do you mean that now as opposed to next meeting? Oh yeah, yeah. I just mean before the March meeting, right? Because I, I don't think you have time to wait and see the research and then write a letter unfortunately. Yeah, I think we need to do that unless we sit we go to city council chambers together. So just in terms of the timing that council meeting is likely to be. After the next meeting or do we have a time? Michael, can I interject so nothing has been scheduled with council? It's not on the calendar.

[104:09] Yeah. So I would temper your expectations for February and March. Oh, so maybe it's such a emergency has not got something we need to act on in February of March. But I will let you know if it appears. But, Council doesn't like it when staff just It was things only a general lesson. So Jay, you're saying it could get deferred. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Okay, because last time I talked with Natalie Stiffler who's the director of transportation and given this was many weeks ago that I spoke with her probably about 3 weeks ago. She said they were aiming for March, but you know. That could get pushed back. Yeah, well, this is, Have a little bit time today. Yeah. So they make a point of it will, you know. I have a block and die for this in February.

[105:03] Okay. Okay. Anything else on the airport before we move to or next agenda item under manage from the board. Thank you. Okay, we're moving on to item C then, which is, We had a great conversation about this in December. That time for you to be submitting a letter to council. So. That spurred us to draft a letter. There's our council. Did that request? However, very useful exercise in framing our thoughts for what we want to be doing this year, what's important. And, if you follow the outline of the draft that you've all seen in some of your commented on. There are 3 areas. We wanted to consider. One is a continuation. Of our focus on missing middle but with I'd say more detail.

[106:04] Some of them we heard tonight and discussing the compliant update. And the airport. The planning reserve and then we also threw in talking about linkage fees and parking requirements. And then we had item 2 about. Just creating more affordable housing in general. This is really pretty conceptual, but the idea being It's really expensive to build housing and bolder. Any kind of housing. And how can we, Thank you about ways of bringing the cost down. Either using surplus properties, more mixed use developments. Mining parking lots we have number of acres of underused park lots in our city. And that's more of an area of discussion. I don't think it's anything.

[107:01] We'd be making a recommendation on right away. But it'd be kind of interesting to. I come up with some substantial thoughts on that. Present them to Council in a ways and maybe they haven't thought about before. Okay, gotta get to the. Who we are, we strictly an advisory board. Make recommendations to the council's request or are we innovators who are coming up with their own idea and passing them on. Okay, And then item 3 is an area that we have not waited into in the time. I've been. Yeah, and that's really getting into, ways of increasing the supply of transitional housing for the. And now I'm looking at certain opportunities. I know council is talking about some of these things and maybe not others. Okay, adapted use of office. Billings, or, or I'd say, say a large supply of Bacon, commercial properties in Boulder right now.

[108:08] Transitional, solutions. Doing, and even tiny home villages. You know, kind of, what that might look like and where they go. Some of this. Think we have a benefit of Denver, so experimenting a lot of these things right now, and they're not. But really, really curious to see how something come out. This is, a fraud area. I think like, we waited into the conversation and get hung up on. Do you, deeply emotional, controversial. Points that, you know, first call rather than lead to progress on this issue. And My personal goal would be to avoid that kind of. Call it a trap and say let's really just focus on housing and not get into issues like policing and how you deal with drug addiction and things that we have.

[109:04] Will you sign it personally have no expertise in? But, it's really up to us to just discuss this and. Say, I don't wanna touch it or I would like to investigate it further. Could possibly lead to some recommendations. That was, that's really the purpose of going over this. So. I have a comment about the transitional housing. So I spoke with Mike Block, who's the executive director, CEO of this shuttle yesterday. And I asked him about like safe camping and palette. Homes and his position is that. Those solutions. Suck money away from. How is it and that he is supportive of Tiny homes or tiny villages because actually there's now some evidence that you can get vouchers for tiny ups. So, but you cannot get any sort of voucher for like. The sanction camping, sanctioned parking and some of the concepts of So his thinking is if it's going to cost.

[110:13] Millions of dollars because we saw some analysis. I think that the city did about the costs associated with. Creating some safe camping, safe parking kinds of things. It's like millions of dollars and that is siphoning money away from permanent housing solutions like Blue Bird or some sort of tiny. So I think my position has changed based on that and we as a group should not think about. So I think my position has changed based on that. And we as a group should not think about transitional housing, but we should absolutely think about are there ways of creating units that don't cost $700,000. Called the experiment pretty closely.

[111:00] And, those seem to be getting people off the streets. You don't weather those. So you're sanctioned, the work. I think there's a theory out on that. And then if you look at the costs, it's staggering. To just be money down the brain. So I think we need to keep. And issues like that. It's just a side though. It's just a side though. Houston, we talk about Houston. The Denver almost plan that like was, from QUEUE, that they did, they started this idea of buying old motels and this and that, you know, multi-family, whatever. And in Houston, 5, 6, 7 years ago. And it's really worked. It's really worked. And I think it's working in Denver. It's very expensive to buy. 20 million dollar hotels. To get people on the streets, but. You know, the cost, The alternative cost is way more. So it seems to be working. My question was If we provide exit, no, we, to September, where it provides X amount of beds for all those people we are.

[112:06] What's this stop here? Most people from moving. You know, I mean, like, is it endless? Does anybody know the answer that? I'm curious about the logistics of those motel hotel programs. Or like, do they stay there for a week or a year? Like, I think it depends a lot on that, like how they get people moving afterwards. Yeah, no, it's not. I think it's a fairly long transition like a couple of years. But I have questions about the districts also like a couple of years. But I have questions about logistics also like, how do you supervise those places? But I have questions about logistics also like how do you supervise those places? Also, like, how do you supervise those places? Just move people in and leave it, leave it be. It's also like, how do you supervise those places? Just move people in and leave it, leave it be. So there's a cost there as well. And, like, in my mind, I'd like to see those permanent house, right? Like you got it's basically like a studio apartment and you sort of got a bathroom.

[113:01] You know, you add some sort of kitchen or cooking facility and then yes, there like the and then the wait for it to be successful is for there also to be supportive services associated with it. So when I think about How will you best house people who are previously homeless? It's a 3 legged stool. It's like you need a unit and you need a voucher to pay for their rent and you need permanent support of housing to help them. Transition and you know learn how to be in an apartment and get their medical care and get their mental health care. And so you need all 3 legs. So I would be very supportive. Some of those hotels being permanent rooms for people that you don't then transition them into something else, but you've then given them a permanent place to live.

[114:12] Office buildings, right? Like a lot of people say you can't convert office buildings into aments. It's not feasible. And I think that's true if you're looking at like traditional market rate apartments that are then competing with brand new apartment complex. But maybe if you shift the mindset and you turn it into sort of SRO so that each, each office ends up being a place to sleep and there's like a shared bathroom facility and you create showers and this like communal kitchens in the middle and there's permanent supported housing that you're creating alternative housing. Formats to which are just better than people sleeping expensive to just build something from scratch. From converting resident, you know, Oh, satisfying stuff to residential.

[115:10] But the, so you think you should just demolish them. It's less expensive to demolish them and better demolish but starting from scratch as opposed to Crazy, right? Because I didn't get to demolish and then build. It depends on your plan. If we take an empty office building, which there's many of right now, and we try to turn it into a bunch of apartments in any form or fashion. Very expensive. Right? But my thought is instead of trying to turn them into a bunch of individual apartments, you take an office building that is a 10,000 square foot, 4 plate, right? And it has some bathrooms. If you can hold into, You can turn that into a hostel type situation where there's book beds and then you take the bathrooms and you put some showers.

[116:03] And you beef up that plumbing in infrastructure. That's not very expensive to do. And need American issues already. The zoning doesn't allow. That's what we're going to do. And you're going to have to do. And I'm just saying that that would be the least. Cost to get people under. I guess, so that's my question. So, you know, is there a question like co-compliance? You know, like, both compliance. Zoning is a huge one, right? Cause like obviously, if you move people into an office building world, there's not gonna be a egress window in every bedroom. They'll have bedrooms, right? So that's the thing. And I guess the question I've got with Valkyries, what kind of vouchers, are you talking, section, or section 8 vouchers? I mean, the next step, right? It's an incredibly finite. Cool, that's my concern there too. I mean, I used to, yeah, so you represent, you know, housing authority in some accounting and stuff like that. We ran out of section 8 money. Every year and there was 0 for transitional housing. That was just generic section 8 and that's part of the problem.

[117:08] Nobody wants to spend anybody outside of few communities there, you know, forward thinking, nobody else wants to spend a penny on it. I mean, that's where you go back to the eighties where everything started, right? And it was all slashing budgets where everything started, right? And it was all slashing budgets, 80, 90%. So that's that's part of the conundrum to me is all slashing budgets, 80, 90%. So that's part of the conundrum to me is with all these things, 80, 90%. So that's part of the conundrum to me is with all these things, yet you have to be willing to spend money. And I think it goes to what, Terra's and the thing that scares me about it is that If some communities are spending the money and then other communities are just riding off their backs, I just don't see how local policy really ends up helping. With the issue of on house because it's kind of more of you could just go to Denver and get yourself a hotel room. You could just go to Denver and get yourself a hotel room. Right. And then it just keeps coming.

[118:02] Send them, but, well, a couple of things. Yeah, we could talk about these policies. Yeah, we could talk about these policies. They were our realities all night, but I very question to me is we want to address. But, in terms of the cost, which is something that Harping on. Yeah, it's super expensive to turn it off. It's building to a part. You might as well build a new part of building. We have to have those hotels to convert. And Denver happens to have this. Area around the old Staple airport that had a lot of hotels and suddenly we're not so popular. That's some opportunity. But we don't have that. We may have, OH, Telescope, people care for that, but a luxury. But I just love the bridge house model, which is more like, was talking about the hostels. Yeah, it's, you know, it's like a hundred $1,000 per person to do a full service building, but you sleeping in cod or a bunk bed and you don't, you don't get an apartment. Is transitional and there is a quid pro quo. No, I'm gonna not take drugs and I get a job, you know, be given a job.

[119:09] I'm gonna pay some of that income. You know, it's a really interesting model, much less expensive than trying to build. A very low income apartment building both And, and, it's great. It doesn't work for all of the people. But, doesn't work for all of the people. No, I know. I know. Yeah. But maybe like I recognize that like we just had. Robust conversation. About various kinds of. Housing for people who are struggling with homelessness. And maybe that isn't the purview of have, but I do think that it would be very helpful. For us to come up with some strategies. Of how can we build units that don't cost $700,000 right like can we maybe we make them smaller and maybe there's You know, we should at least talk through how can you how can you reduce some of those costs?

[120:06] Cuz you can $700,000 a door. It's really hard to be a board. Of those costs, cause you can $700,000 a door. If it's really hard to be a board, yeah, it's come forward there. It's the only way, right? Because that's where all that cost comes from. So if you say, yeah, we're gonna turn an office building into something. It's, we're going to turn a lot of this building into something that's, we're, we're going to have a, you know, kitchen. It's not going to need, I mean, that, yeah, we always talk about the, building code. That's remarkable. Right. You could tell it. And, so, Really, if you want to have something and that's something that I think, yeah, I feel comfortable talking about that part because you know, you're saying, you know, there's a lot of bigger issues that deal, like I was just saying, you know, federal funding. But if you want to talk about that part of it, what policies we could have in place that could make this and so when the opportunity comes along because the other part is most commercial, commercial property owners.

[121:07] They're the last ones to realize their property is not as valuable as it used to be. So there's that other part of the day. I don't think there's a lot of people with big office building saying, Hey, give me 500,000 and I'll give it to you, right? But if we have a policy in place that allows for code for, allows for all these things and even tries to figure out a way where yeah, you can coax that a policy in place that allows for all these things. And even tries to figure out a way where, yeah, you can coax that commercial landar into, a way where, yeah, you can coax that commercial landar into, delaying that over because there's, tax and sounds or whatever else it That's something that I think we can wrestle with and that, yeah, we can maybe come up with least some good ideas. I feel, we're talking about it from that perspective because it really is. On the same continuum as housing, right? We need land. You need structures, you need buildings, and you need to come up with the fact that for for cost campaign housing it's just so expensive that you know we're you know trying to dig a trying to build a sandcastle in quicksand right so it's just even more exacerbated than it is in the normal local housing, arena where you're talking about people.

[122:13] something like, you know, 100 say, am I, 8% AMI? And so you at least have some backfill. So here you're looking at you know, travelling almost down to a net 0, right? And what is that? And that's what I was saying. I love it if section 8 was gonna come. I don't know that it's section 8 was going to come I don't know that it ever would but that's the thing to me, but we could talk about those policies. And if we talk about those policies, I think it's very resonant throughout all the different kinds of housing we're talking about. And I think that's absolutely well within our. I appreciate being an advisory board, right? But I think that's something where we say, Hey, these are things we wrestle with being an advisory board, right? But I think that's something where we can say, hey, these are things we wrestle with. It is all resident. You know? I think you take care like the overall idea of whether it's on house folks or affordable or market rate or whatever we have. We have property and 10 that's not being used efficiently. Right? We have empty lots. We have empty office buildings.

[123:05] And so when we're talking about having that beautiful green area around and so in filling, yes, in filling in density. But that doesn't necessarily mean. Building giant things in random neighborhoods it could be instead of this office building let's have a condo complex. Looks the same, feels the same, but it's actually used. So I think if we come at it from that, Maybe there's vacant lots that you put, that's like not a big construction. That's like that article you shared from the New York Times, right? Did you guys get to see that? That was a cool article. Like roll over and stuff like that. Well, time you sort of don't make sense because if land is so valuable, you could maybe only build 20 tiny homes versus like or 10 tiny homes versus like 30 if it if it went vertical. But if you could build 10 tiny homes while they're getting the entire. In the construction and then you move those tiny homes somewhere else to another place.

[124:10] What you just said, but a tiny hormone right here is. $2030,000 a 30 unit. Could they be smaller modules that could then be stacked so that they're not like 800 square foot single, like, 800 square foot single, like the larger modules, they could be smaller modules. They could be smaller modules. They could be smaller modules, they could be smaller modules, they could be smaller modules, they could be smaller modules. I mean, each box is basically 16 feet by 30 I think it's 32 so I mean each box is basically 16 feet by 30 I think it's 32 so I mean it' The 5 to 600 is for a feet call. That's. So, but don't get too far ahead because first those the module with factory production is really focused Andres.

[125:05] You know, the HabT project. So everybody is trying to like, oh, you could do it for my project. You could do it for my project. Does innovative work and creates reports and research is stuff. And, the thought that popped into my head when, when you said that was, I remember when I apply going under the Hab website and seeing that there was a report on Tiny Homes of all banks. And I was just kind of curious if you felt like That was an effort that was worth doing and then Tiny Homes came up.

[126:00] It makes me wonder if we should go. And read what was written or were you we should go and read what was written or were you we actually, I wonder if we should go and read what was written or were, we actually here when, you know, it was, it's really interesting report and some good ideas, but I would say low impact. It wasn't about Tania. It's about 10. Which was allowing you as a homeowner to put utilities on your parking pad. It allows someone to own the tiny, to pull it in there, rent the space. You know, I mean, yeah, clickability of that. Not very small. Right. As a conduit, so we had a listening session and it was the most well tended thing we ever had and that listening session was full of people who won't, and they're like, stop talking about tiny homes on a fixed foundation. Everybody owns tiny homes on wheels. We're tiny homes all our owners. And that was what that was what was the resounding feedback that we got. That's where there's that kind of role that was the resounding feedback that we got.

[127:06] That's where there's that kind of roll with that, right? Because I had no clue, right? I had no clue before that and every single person's like, don't dismiss the real thing. That's what we have. That's part of the whole notion of the freedom. So it's actually, yeah, kind of, which you guys were just talking about, like, Hey, while they're putting the permits together for the real billing. That's what you guys were just talking about like, hey, while they're putting the permits together for the real billing. And then we're kinda, yes, but what happened was there was some city council planning more discussion about 20 homes on wheels that got nowhere so we kinda said. I never made it to them so everybody never got there. Yeah, I kept trying to push it. You'll see one West, that little skirt.

[128:24] You know, I keep on hearing, I think I've heard election official elected official say we have a crisis and Unnounced. Can't be in public spaces. It's an emergency. So if this is an emergency. No, we need some emergency measures. Yes. I can't be, the example of like, you know. Don't be so tight on all these codes. Let's get some buildings converted in that. It's got, you know. Maybe there's, I mean, you want to get people off the streets and the heated buildings with running water. Yes.

[129:03] That's as simple as that. It's really bad scenario over on thirtieth and like Walnut over there, right? What's going on thirtieth and like walnut over there, right? What's going on? I guess the huge encampment there, like the Walgreens keeps getting broke into. The Walgreens has not had. Wood in front of it for like the last 2 years, but so, yoga pods over there, yoga pot. Good people, right? They're doing well. So they, They put, you know, they, they had a problem with, their facilities being used in bad ways or whatever. So they put, they got approval for it and they put a whole bunch of 40 buying stuff. That's like, you know, it's, they've been on a port line. And, and, and they joke through a lot of, do it, but they did it in itself, right?

[130:00] There's a lot of people there, so it's just, it's a pragmatic solution, right? Right. Nothing's ideal, but you know, it's that whole, right? Right. Nothing's ideal, but you know, it's that all my favorite, phrases, you know, don't let the perfect video. I mean, it's probably in this scenario more than anything. I mean, it's probably in this scenario more than anything. I mean, that's the biggest thing, right? So if there's an opportunity Who chairs, right? You know, but it's some, but it's some. Emergency voting change. And I'm also thinking about tiny home. You know, what if there's publically own properties where you can. And I'm also thinking about tiny, you know, what if there's publicly owned properties where you could put tiny, oh, you know, what if there's publicly owned properties where you could put tiny, don't school while they don't have to be there forever. Right. That takes that kind of land, basis out of the, and then your costs are some utilities and putting these $20,000, you know, structures out for people living. So anyway, this is all, Spit, Balling, conceptual, but I'll take some. It is sort of like pilot programs, right? Like let's try a 10 unit tiny home on on a vacant lot where somebody's paying rent and whatever and like let's try a 10 unit tiny home on on a vacant lot where somebody's paying rent and whatever and like let's try a 10 unit tiny home on on a vacant lot where somebody's paying rent and whatever and like if it works, right? Like let's try a 10 unit tiny home on on a vacant lot where somebody's paying rent and whatever.

[131:18] And like for the whole city forever and ever. I don't know. That's easier. That's the way to do it. Cause if it if it shows it works then terrific great and then you actually again I said that whole thing it works then terrific great and then you actually again I said that whole thing it's got it's it works then terrific great and then you actually again I said that whole thing it's got it's gonna have to be incremental just like just like all kinds of, local sounds, right? It's gonna have to be. Yeah, I don't know. That's actually, I don't know. So here's one of the things that, okay, I'm, I've seen data that shows there is a magnet effect. So here's one of the things that, okay, I'm, I've seen data that shows there is a magnet effect that a lot of the people who are camping aren't from Boulder. So here's one of the things that, okay, I'm, I've seen data that shows there is a magnet effect. That a lot of the people who are camping aren't from Boulder.

[132:05] They came here and part of it is because they can and because other people say, hey, come to Boulder, you can get food, you can get services. So I do, I believe there's a magnet effect. But I also believe that There are other community that don't want to have a shelter and don't want to provide services because they're like, well, if you don't want to have a shelter and don't want to provide services because they're like, well, if we do that. We're gonna turn into Boulder and Denver and we don't want to turn into Boulder. So we can show in Boulder that some of these tiny home villages or these. Then it may create an incentive if you own a vacant lot and you're not earning any money and somebody says, hey, I'll pay you 50 grand if you let me have a tiny own there that you can then convince other communities to do it because it's being successful. The huge thing is Denver, but I'm not. It's the huge thing of the Denver programs this.

[133:01] This is what you have to you have to acknowledge and realize. So that Denver program, the other side of that coin is that you know we're giving you an opportunity to place the state you can't stay here any longer right and they've gotten Beat the hell on that. I mean, I think I heard the, ACLU was gonna sue the city endeavor or something, but it's an effective program and part of that saying, yeah, you know, you have to, as, health safety and welfare issue included for the people that are living there, you have to find a way to properly address it. That's the other part of your, right? Is that, and, and but that's the way you have community buy it too, cause it's like, okay, it's probably not a good idea. On the river or you know in the middle I mean I just thought of last week right but and if you have a solution that you say here's the solution so this is an option that you say here's the solution. And if you add a solution, then you say, here's the solution that you say, here's the solution. So this is in the action anymore, right? That's part of it. So my issue with the ACLU suit is that this concept of you can't ban camping unless there's an alternative place for people to go.

[134:00] So my issue with the ACLU suit is that this concept of you can't ban camping unless there's an alternative base for people to go. So let's use shelter units and shelter beds. So and you're right there's a lot of danger associated with people who are living in encampments, both to themselves and each other in the community. So I have an objection to the ACLU suit and it's not because I'm black compassion. It's because I have compassion. So. Yeah, I think if you have, yeah. Sorry, there is, like, a curious point. If I share that concern, if you don't wanna be a magnet, but. And you would probably be the one answer this, but doesn't coordinated entry. Address that issue by sorting people out who are truly local from those. Who just came to get the free end up.

[135:02] Isn't that what it's supposed to? That people want to access, they only can if they have. Then it's like confirmed then it within the city limits at a certain time or employee buy or whatever so some of the services. They do add it back in the system, or whatever. So some of the services. They do add it back in the. To the people who are in, they're not going through coordinated entry. They're not, they're not going through coordinated entry. They're not Right? If we have rules that say they're not allowed wherever they are, then they break them up. I see it all the time. So, you know, to what you're saying, if we have an alternative, we say, look, you cannot in camp, can't camp here, they're all placed in camp. We can go here. But you provide that pot or whatever it is that bad but then we have to ban all the other opportunities for a canvas or people willing to go that far.

[136:06] That's the big question. I have a lot to say about this. Because I volunteer on the street and I have a lot to say about this because I volunteer on the street and I have some strong beliefs. But to go back to your original question, is this something that we want to? . Yeah It's housing. Right. So whether we're, whether we're looking really carefully at the missing middle or affordable housing or on house for yes. So yes, but then on our list. No, if we when we should choose how we want to dive into this and then I can happily make arrangements for you guys to go do a street outreach shift with me.

[137:00] Super fun. I will say the one big thing that probably I'm different than a few of you anyway is the one big thing that probably I'm different than a few of you anyway is the whole magnet concept. My personal belief is Why would we not want to be known as a city that gives a shit about human beings? For that. It's some point. I also, like when I imagine, When you're unhoused, you're incredibly vulnerable. And the notion that you would just be like, oh, I heard Portland. Better services than Boulder. I'm, I'm gonna go there. I don't know, like the magnet is a kind of a, what is it? To me it feels like a bit of like, people imagine what they would do if they knew about serve but like on house people are really vulnerable and they're not like people imagine that what they would do if they knew about serve but like on house people are really vulnerable and they' they don't have like perfect information about with the ways to optimize how they get services, right?

[138:01] So like I'm trying to agree with you, I think. But yes, that is true. And there is some magnet stuff. Yes, that is true. And there is some magnet stuff. There is some, but yes, that is true. And there is some magnet stuff. There is some, here we can get services over here, but there is some magnet stuff. There is some magnet stuff. There is some, here we can get services over here. But there are, there's a, They call it body count and that sounds really horrible. So like I call it a human count. So they do account annually. Yes. And they and the information is out there. And so again, when we kinda choose to dive into this, we can pull some of that information and then we'd have some of the data to actually talk about. There was actually a point in time came out yesterday. Yeah, I was gonna say it was that was it yesterday? Extra one every year they we do an additional one in the summer. The required one is the one that was the one in the witches and then so looking at.

[139:15] Let's see. There has been an increase. But not necessarily from. Reading something in the 80 50 range. It's the easiest one that I felt was interactions, unique interactions. There was 739. That was point in time last year. For the city city. I think that's what there's a dashboards that you on the CNN older website that you can go look at all the data for that and actually if you're really interested on February eighth session So that's something that's really important.

[140:08] If you guys really want to go down this road, dip your toe into this issue. You need to go to the February 8 city council meeting. I would say it's recording. It'll be virtual But I would go and person because it's super easy to do. And you're watching. And because it's super easy to turn it out and you're watching it online. Today sessions. I don't really they have in So I would agree that we should focus on housing. Missing middle, how do we, what can we do to make every new construction unit less expensive? What can we do to house people in empty buildings? But I think If we only focus on the unhoused, it's gonna be a I think I don't think we should only focus on the.

[141:04] When, you say, ideas about how to make housing. Less expensive. I do you mean like? Construction costs and when you say that do you have specific ideas in your mind that you want to bring up at some future meeting or you just kind of it's just kind of out there is that they so, I, I think there's I don't think there's a single solution. I think there's multiple search. So like, can we figure out ways to create more units that are smaller, right? Like, I don't think it's so much the construction because the cost of building an affordable housing because the cost of building an affordable housing is roughly the same as the cost of building. And affordable housing is roughly the same as the cost of building a luxury house. But I do think that there's all these, I don't know, brand account. But I do think that like whether it's the time that it takes to build or the Oh, or the fees and the permitting and the I think it's looking at all of the costs to develop, not necessarily to construct, but all of the stuff to develop.

[142:28] Oh, it's like, I mean, nobody wanted to go anywhere. And we had, we had to get all these different, EV modifications and everything like that. But in these little clubbed rooms, right? It's allowed 2 3 sometimes employees to be able to live in them and they will love it, right? Especially when they were younger and they loved it. It was fun. They had, and then we had a huge common areas. So it's the same kind of notion as a hostel, or whatever it is. But it really helped make sure because we had a policy and we still do today.

[143:06] Trying to have. Every employee who needs a place to live. Add some way to accommodate them, right? And we looked over everything in the last few years, buying cold hotels and you know, whatever else. So expensive over there, but you know that was one of the things where you know it does work and you need some some flexibility going code, something called, etc. And then you can make that work and for a lot of people there's some people that are gonna say, leave me alone, right? People people that don't, if you give it an opportunity, something's there. And I think that that's what I was saying too is that Yeah, I really think it's a bad idea because I was here when we kind of fell down that road back in like 2020 and then it kinda Glass and back else and the council isn't happy with us, but I think that, you know, the whole notion of saying that housing and everything we do, whether it be missing middle, whether it be transitional, it's a continuum, right?

[144:04] And a lot of those notions or policies that we can wrestle with are within that continuum, then it's worthwhile addressing because there's probably, you know, spillover from one thing to the other, right? Honey homes, right? So you say, okay, it could be on meals, a computer to keep you that. So I, I think from that perspective, it's something that does make it. So I, I think from that perspective, it's something that does make it easy for us to. And one of the things that I We're missing the SROs, right? Like the single room occupancy, whether and I don't think they have their own bathrooms. I think it was more like, you have a bed, you have like a television, you can lock the door. And it's a affordable. It may not be ideal for lots of people. And some people might prefer. More that communal hangout with people, but there's some people who are like, I want my own space. I don't wanna be with anybody else. And being, yeah, exactly. Let's promote a variety of housing options.

[145:06] Because of updating building codes, SROs and a lot of other. It would be considered like the co-ops that then got codeed that kind of in 27. But I think another term or the more modern term is just. That then got code that kind of in 27. But I think another term or the more modern term, it's just micro-units. And then, 27. But I think another term or the more modern term, it's just micro units. But I think another term or the more modern term, it's just micro units. Yeah. So that's much more soluble, particularly for. Another term or the more modern term, it's just micro units. So that's much more soluble, particularly for. We, I remember having conversations with developers. Over the years, who are interested in doing micro units because I thought there would be a market for it. But most of them haven't come to fruition. I think the one on Pearl is closest. Is that happening? I think it's pretty close, isn't it? I don't know.

[146:11] When you say highly amenitized then that target market might not be the. When you say highly amenitized, then that target market might not be the SRO. No, new construction is not going to be affordable. Which is where we get into that. What can we do? Doing this bill. We put some cost. Yeah. So I want to go back to my original point. We'll do that. And that is we are having, voice, address, all, kind of, out, when I get back to also my caveat that I don't want to see us falling on a sword like arguing about camping or on a sort of like arguing about camping or harm production. So like arguing about camping or harm production sites. Yeah. And social. You know, like we just.

[147:01] Falling on sort of like arguing about camping or harm production sites. And social, you know, like we just, let's just say, we're a housing board, let, let's We wanna see more housing for the full spectrum of people that Yes. I know, I agree. I have a comment that I wanna make. It's burning in in my mouth here. I have a comment that I want to make. It's burning on my in my mouth here. Or word burns. Another source of another way of looking at vacancy in the city, one is commercial buildings, but, I did some analysis with the census data about a year ago. To estimate the number of empty bedrooms in Boulder. It's about 30,000 according to conservative estimates. I have a whole blog post that details how I put that number together. I think that, I don't know how an advisory board can speak to that, but to me it's like If you were looking at the earth from high above and looking down at the situation and you saw that people were living out in the streets while other people have.

[148:07] 5 to 6 bedrooms per person. It's a weird, it's a weird, it's a weird society that we've created with a lot of inequity. And the fact that there's all these empty bedrooms around Bowler that are already climate control. Move in ready available tonight. It's like we just there's an aspect of like social change where we've normalized. I mean, there's actually like a thing where like, if you're an adult. And, and I'm quoting somebody else loosely. If you're an adult. And you're not in a romantic relationship or you're not living with family. You are expected to live alone. Like that's a social norm that we've established. And it's just, it, up against. Our housing realities and, yeah, we just have a ton of empty housing. Sitting around.

[149:01] It's all it's all accounted for in terms of ownership and who controls it. But, anyways, I don't know if there's discussion to be had around that or ways of thinking about I'm sorry. It's, it doesn't really, yeah, do that big rich and sorry, but I'm the question. How you get the people that? Do you get the people that? Do you know how you get the people that, like that. I'm the question. Do you know how you get the people that, to those bedrooms, do chairs like what's Yeah, it's a great idea, but I think there's The biggest issue there is a lot of people are aging in place, right? Of course, the baby boomers are retirement age. Good to go, whatever they still have their save houses. They can't sell that house downsize because interest rates and this and that they end up with not as good a place for more money. So there's today going because I love my house. Yeah, I like my 4 bedrooms. I'm gonna stay here as long as I can, there's 4 empty bedrooms. It's still an elephant in the room. You know, like that's me, right?

[150:05] I don't know that I would want some complete stranger who's potentially having mental health issues. I don't know that I would want some complete stranger who's potentially having mental health issues. I'm just talking about I'm just talking about the fact that we have a lot of empty bedrooms. Doesn't, you, you, you could, put what, I mean, there's, actually really good tools for figuring out how to find good matches for, for figuring out how to find good matches for, house mates. We makes that call, so. It's actually called sharing housing. That. No, no, no, no. Okay, so you need somebody to do yard work? So day 30, always, their meetings on time and really what I wanted to get. To view 3 is some some consensus could be has not that these are the 3 I don't think you can do this real quick.

[151:02] What are the 3? One is, really kind of gets the carin's issue of cost reduction to actually make housing more affordable in general. And then the third is creating more housing for people who are currently out whether that's transitional or permanently. But housing structures with T. Running water and bathrooms. Not necessarily. I mean, I think we. Go back even November, right? We've been kinda wrestle with that and I think I think we build some decent consensus on those 3 issues beforehand. And, So head not. Okay. That's great. Well, I'll come for the plan that just got to see it and individually in future.

[152:03] Meetings and see those lead to some recommendations. It would be great to get. More research under our belts on some of these issues. I don't know how we get that where that like staff. That's good. What do you think of our 3 ideas? They're fantastic. Oh, are they too big too broad? I don't, my overall is critique is I think they could benefit from being talked through a little bit. I think it's just really easy to throw out solutions. And if they're not well thought out, I think it's gonna impact how they're received. So that's my, we're doing, that's already doing, but I think you need to do more.

[153:04] So could we say to city council these are The 3 priorities and over the next year, we're gonna delve deeper into what we think. That you know ideas are or do you think we have to have all that figured out by the time you think we have to have all that figured out by the time. You don't have to figure it out. And I think it's written well. We basically said, we think we should explore these. Ideas? But I think if they see an idea that they're like, that's not gonna work. And it's gonna, if they see an idea that they're like, that's not gonna work. And it's gonna, they're going to It would be better to present these. In generality. But, It's up to you guys. Right, but then you'll want to letter from us to how to represent it. Start running. So I, yeah. I don't know when in the. Has before letters done more assignments like this like this is what we think you should be working on.

[154:05] Has before letters done more assignments like this like this is what you we think you should be working on that was the first. This like this is what you we think you should be working on. That was the first. No, no. I thought they did be working on that. That was the first. You never know that would have. No, no. Oh, I thought they did. You know, we're, what if we need somebody else, let me do the public comment. Saying, well, we have to have, you know, we're, we're thinking about Yeah, I think the lives a better way. I was feeling like. So you just do pop in public comment, then you know, I mean, it's just kinda, it looks the. The body holding that meeting kind of, you know. Because it really, I'm supposed to talk about it, right? So what is a good way and say, Hey, we love to come, sit down and do a joint session, whatever else. But, you know, the's a good way to go about it. They can read it. They can discuss it anyway they want.

[155:01] Forcing the issue in the public comment section where they can't really Even the side engage in something like that. And then it's just, you know, they have other things going on. That's, But, is it also a consideration that, like each one of us. Like sit down with one of the city. Council members and. You know, I said many friendly. Give direction or choose direction. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole point, right? You're trying to influence Council's work plan for the next 2 years. Right. So, so, so keep their 2 separate things. There's H work plan and then there's council's work plan. So when I'm talking about giving very specific well thought out things is for things you want council to focus on. You can be as vague as you want. So I think what I'm hearing. Terms of written communications is Go back, the original idea of having a short letter.

[156:07] That presents concepts without getting into it. Which is more easy for them to absorb and less. makes it more difficult to just be dismissive. That won't work, you know, because you've gotten too deep in the I'll see. Yeah. And also keep in mind, Council may the committee for the retreat planning may have specific questions that they'd like you to ask. Answer. Remember in the past? Yeah, after the retreat. No, for, for the retreat. So again, I was trying to get you guys send a letter back in December so it could preempt all that but But we didn't work out too lazy. You're too thorough. That's all. Great. Well, I.

[157:09] I need to think more about this. I can come up with some proposals for. I'm gonna handle. Developing and communicating these ideas and I'd actually like to move on to manage. 20. Yeah. You're bad? Please let me know, but I'm just gonna give you just a quick update on the modular factory. I did wanna follow up just on, February eighth meeting. So I hope everybody wrote that down. Okay, perfect. February eighth is the homelessness update from staff to city council. So I would highly recommend it's 6 o'clock. Let's be recorded. I have a contact. That will be recorded. Yeah.

[158:03] Can you attend that one in person? Tiffany is saying that the study sessions are still to you also. I'll let you know if you can attend in person or not, but you can't speak anyway. But I think it's just more powerful to be, but if you can. The other piece of that, you know, so, and I've talked to Curt, our director about this, you know, he's not, certainly not opposed to you guys, getting. Delving into this issue. And he's happy to help provide staff support so we can have our stuff with the expertise in this area come and explain more about the programs that the city offers. Just see, cause I think it's important, you know, so easy to just talk in generalities about this stuff.

[159:02] But I think not everybody has the same level of knowledge and understanding. So it might help to have that basis. So if February eighth is the first opportunity. If you guys wanna delve into specific topics. Just let me know. And I can, that for future meetings. Sound good? I have firmly believe that. Issue and addiction. So, there's a great book that I just finished. The least among us. I would highly recommend it. Just understand because the people that you visibly see I don't, you know, caffeine in our public spaces, those other people that are the hardest. To serve, at least among us, the least among us. He wrote a great book about, the opioid, or crisis and the origins of that and he basically recycles back, he basically refers back to that history.

[160:12] Sam Keones. Yes, I think QUEUE, UIN, Yes, Okay, thank you. On that one, there's another reason good book called Poverty by America. Then I just finished. Yeah. So that's it, but. The module factory. So, this is exciting. So has anybody been out to the school district property? Next time you're out there, just stop in the parking lot. Take a look. You, the, foundation walls have been completed. The metal building is starting to go up. So next time you're up, if you go. So basically, 60 fifth, you just take that road to the back of the site and you can't miss it.

[161:05] And who will be the employees that are there? Because it, like, like, like training, so, yeah, so I think some people are more familiar with it than others. So this is a partnership between. Yeah, so I think other people are more familiar with it than others. So this is a partnership between, the city, for, for humanity, in the school district. So the school district just provide me the land. With the understanding that They are gonna be able to provide workforce training for their students in the construction trades program. In the factory. So basically they're gonna understand. Construction processes as well as learning specific potentially learning specific trades as well. And this way they don't have to go, you know, from us the county to, build site. They can walk 2 min to the factory. And then hopefully producing, you know. Workflows for future factors as well. Habitat is gonna own and operate the factory itself. So they're the certified operator. They're gonna ones that are gonna coordinate, volunteer efforts.

[162:11] So it's still based largely based on volunteer labor. Donated materials, lower cost materials. From various suppliers. And then, the city is basically, and managing. I'm managing the construction of the building. So. Yeah, the idea. But then there's, you know, it's gonna take us several months to fully equate with the factory and then to start producing units. And there are lots of processes that you have to take place. You know we have to get certification from the state to operate a modular factory because the city doesn't permit these. It's the state. That, that'll be awesome. Yeah, once we basically have a floor and wall, that's not a big month bit.

[163:16] 16 and how many and they have a kitchen bathroom child everything in there. How many of those can be made out of that factory in a week or a month? So that's the capacity for 50 per year. One a week, roughly. But, habitat is not Confident that they're gonna be able to get there because they have to rely on volunteer labor mostly. Yeah, we have students learning, which is gonna slow the process down as well. Yeah, so their goal is basically, at least once a month, one of them. Is basically, at least once a month, one a month. And it's all for, well, just keep going. It'll keep going.

[164:00] Let's. If there's a lull in the demand for Ponderosa, because it's basically my Ponder or Supermx is placing anybody. It's only if you want to move into a fixed foundation home. You can stay in their mobile homes until they die basically. But what's the cost? For the each building. Right now we are optimistic it's going to be a hundred $20. So we're talking about 60 grade. So the thing about modular is you know, it's not a huge reduction in cost. It's really 10 to 20%. The overall cost. Which is. Yeah. Or foundation. Exactly, or foundation. Utilities or so there's things but still that's pretty inexpensive. It is and largely it's because it's voluntary labor and sweat equity. I remember the future residents have to help build these too.

[165:05] So is that, 720. Cheaper than 700,000. And, you know, basically what we're, what we're proposing are 4 boxes that are, duplex. 2 story duplex. So kitchen on the ground floor living room and then up about 3 bedrooms. Typically, how many potential to kind of also handle how many potential? 73. There's some stick though. 12 units in phase one that are stick out. I'm a tour. Sounds great.

[166:00] Yeah. That's that whole plan. You gotta try. Go start doing things right. That's my answer. It's like. Yeah, we get away from, Anything else you want? What's going on at the city that you guys are curious about or? Oh yeah, I'm awesome is making great progress. It's in for form based code review at the city. I think they're finalizing some designs for eleventh street, the new eleventh street. And. Basically, I think we are close to getting the infrastructure plans, fully approved by the city. And, that so, and the goal is to start that work. In 2025. Start constraint. Start constraint. Sorry with the infrastructure.

[167:01] So, would probably be mid 25 would be my guess. But the, so the green way is really what is the latest a little bit because you have to go. There are some design issues that we had to work through, but getting through the clomer and the lower through FEMA has been, you know, I don't know, but it's super tight. I can see how it's wonderful. But the great news is it's gonna be, you know, really nice. And, from the community. It's the design is really great. It's very beautiful. That's in the, Hmm. And most of awesome. It's on the internet. You can just go look at it yet. No, but I, I can show you on my laptop. So. I got a question. You can do it, try.

[168:05] So my understanding of the city's facilities master plan. On the ideas embedded in there. It's, so yeah, some surplus properties. They want to sell them, I think presumably for market value and somehow that money will be. It's needed and will be directed towards Alpine falsely. That's all I know. So, tell me more. Okay. So the price tag for Alfine Bolson is give us a number. Later. Okay. Well, it's 50 million to buy. And then to demo all that stuff, all the asbestos, that's very expensive. And then put the infrastructure. And that's as far as the city is going, right? No, yeah, so repurposing the, building into city offices. Yeah, so re-purposing the building and building into city offices.

[169:10] Yeah, so the rest is going to be privatized, isn't it? No, well, 2 parcels are going to Boulder Housing Partners, to build, sort of, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, be sold market, the north, western corner. Will be, I think it's like 20. Town homes for sale, self parked and then the parcel at also in Broadway We haven't quite figured it out, but it's basically it could be for sale or it could be rental depending. We obviously would like to try to get some ownership opportunities if we can, but we may. Let me be able to do that. Similar to the challenges we had at. 30 per. So, you know, there's basically the market is threatened rentals. It's just, you know, so expensive like we can talk to.

[170:00] So, my question. So city needs money for infrastructure, green money, everything. Every construction. Yes. And which buildings would they the city be selling? You know, I could not tell you for sure without. Going back to the plant. I mean, part of the challenge, I mean, 2 of the buildings that we've written in, not the, We're supposed to be demolished, right? Because they're not. Angela West is also personally, so relocating all those services. To the western city campus as well. But like we own proper Dance First Street. That's a, you know, single story concrete building. And others, I don't know, I. Can tell you specifically which ones. So. I don't think the memo even.

[171:00] Specified which right did that did it. I've seen all this somewhere, but maybe. And then, they're here, they're updates on 30 per, it's all. The market rate portion is what's going up there all right. Yeah, I just feel by the other day. It's pretty. That's interesting, for sale. It's all rental. We tried to get, ownership. So basically they said as a compromise, they said we will rent for the first 7 years. And consider, So, Any other questions for Jay or other updates? Hey. Thank you. Being debrief, good meeting.

[172:04] Thank you, everyone. Great to have a full house. We approved our minutes. We had one public comment. We heard a really good, presentation in conversation with Christopher Johnson that helped us. Understand the, the, comprehensive plan update process. We had a innovative legal interpretation of the nature of the back. Many, for our land use attorney here, and the possibility of, making a recommendation to council. The timing I'm sure but possibly asking them to keep housing on the table and so instead of the future of the airport. We had a great conversation about, priorities for 2024 and how we might present those. The council, that to be continued. Next month and they got 10 min I will come up with some kind of a frank group too that conversation.

[173:06] Jay, some staff do you give us a great update about? And the manufacturer, and the manufacturer, and where those houses will go what they cost. And their next meeting is, oh, and it's very important that we all attend or listen to the February eighth council meeting. Just that presentation. On those issues and policies. The, of our conversation for one of our dressing battery of the housing puzzle. Yeah, I think that's everything we did. We had no voting, items this month, but we, we have some very big issues ahead. Weighing out some of those issues. And our next meeting is when. 2028 for Wednesday.

[174:14] Any other thoughts or comments? Just to remind you, people have 5 more days to apply. That's right. Do we know if any applications are on the can? I haven't gotten a list yet, usually. Yeah. Okay, I did too, I did some outreach to folks I thought would be good members. Something may apply, Good job too, Alex, from on those lines and if we, A chance we lose our housing development.

[175:09] Only half. I have a comment. There's an event on Friday called Housing for Homies, which is a, fundraiser, entertainment extravaganza hosted by a good friend of mine, Renda. And so that's Friday. I don't believe it's at the Gentard Social. So I sent an email just now with the details. I consider going to that if you're interested. At the bolder JCC that I think is, regional. Group think, innovative contact solutions. So I'll be able to report on. Next month or maybe all that's right. Right. You'll be very good. I don't think I've seen the agenda yet.

[176:07] There is an agenda. There is an agenda. I can send it to you. I didn't see it. There's, yeah, like, you're gonna show up with, not gonna be done before, but there's some breakout sessions. So this is organized by older county. On behalf of the regional housing partnership, so it's. It's fine invite only, Michael was special because he's the chair. So that's the perk of being shared. You get to go to more meetings. But it's all of the all 3 commissioners to be there. Hopefully most of our city council will be there and all the other jurisdictions will be there and all the other jurisdictions. Leadership will also be there and all the other jurisdictions leadership will also be there. We did it back in 2017, which was the precursor to. Leadership will also be there. We did it back in 2017, which was the precursor to. The region adopting the original strategy and the 12% goal, but permanently affordable. So this is kind of a check in to say this is the progress we made.

[177:09] We've achieved a lot of the, things that we laid out in that 2017 plan. What's next? Good. Anybody else? Questions, comments? Motion to adjourn. Approaching to adjourn. Second. Thanks, everyone. Great meeting. Let me feel better. Thank you, me too. See you next month. 2