October 25, 2023 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:00] Are you ready? No. Okay, welcome everybody to the October meeting of the Boulder Housing Advisory Board. I'm Michael and Jaycee of the Chair. And, I will call this need to order and we'll start with, roll call. I can see that we have a, we have a couple of members who will be attending late. Via zoom but let's start with Yes, not here yet. Well, it's, they're also assuming in light. Jared and Clearman? 3, Karen, sorry. That's good. I got everybody there. They also have Laura Kaplan or liaison to the Boulder Blackboard.

[1:00] And we also have Laura Kaplan, our liaison to the Boulder blackboard. And, to the boulder, blackboard. Stayed up, We can. Okay. Good to review the agenda and when we'll get into it. Agender views, item number 2, will have the Okay. We'll be approving a minute from August 20 third and September 20 seventh. After that we'll be having a public participation. You're in, that's item 4, item number 5. It's matters from the board. We'll talk about a letter in the council. Maybe generally, send a letter to council every year before the retreat. We'll have a new issue council coming in so it'll be really important to, I know, maybe is, rescheduled. The member had meeting and it's ran the last year or 2 because of Thanksgiving we pulled in November and December.

[2:00] And we're proposing giving that in December of 6 that will be a decision for the board to make it tonight. Let's see. I think this is supposed to cancel November meeting. That says cancel December. Doesn't matter which. That'll have some updates including, the airport bowler, junction phase 2 and carrying a clear. BUt of junction phase 2 and carrying a clear. BUt most of some thoughts they'd like to share. Item 6. That's what he matters from staff and I'm 70 brief being in calendar check. And then we will probably return by, so that brings us to item 3 approval minutes from August 20 third and September 20 seventh. 23, do I have a motion? Have one at a time or are you doing? All in favor?

[3:01] And my board members. Present. Forget the public participation. I'll ask Jay, of our staff to review the rules. In the way. Oh, this meeting is going past. I didn't buy it from the board. I, I don't know, all that, said, I, I don't know, all that, said, IT, IT, was, the, the timing is a little different than than you have election years because the new council takes a little longer to get a telephony. I believe you told me that the retreat is in March. Okay, so I think we're looking at getting on the weather in December. Probably be later. So the new council, they have to form a, to plan on retreat and typically they were the ones that would request the letter from the different.

[4:04] Great. My suggestion is the board to start talking about what our. This, one of the priorities of this group. Okay. We can do that. Before we get to that, I'll, mentioned, and, the last week. That I think have published a lot in the last year or at least we made recommendations that people listen to and there been a lot of changes in so I wanna thank everybody for taking the time to be thoughtful about that and, we weigh in and work with planning board and council. I think that they really appreciate it. The result of significant changes to the new policies. Occupancy and more. So. You know, really interesting. I'm not gonna get too much into politics. I've got the note. Seems like everyone is running for council is pro housing. It's just not fashionable. We'll say, I don't want to go over anymore.

[5:08] You know, so super through housing and super pro, affordable housing and other folks that are maybe a little more cautious, but I don't think we're gonna get a council. That will try to reverse what's been done. Maybe try to improve it to tweak it and that could be part of our role moving forward. Like, how can we make his own for affordable housing each other? You know, also, the, watchful and see how some of these programs are going for the big use, whether they're being affected. So. I'll open that up to our report members to discuss. What do you think could be important to put into a It is not. Okay. I have a topic that I wanna suggest that this board explore. I know, but given that we haven't sort of approved that.

[6:03] Topic. I don't know, maybe we talk about the letter to the council after some updates, but. I can just tell you what So I'm relatively new to this board and my understanding is that you've had a lot of success with. Promote like doing investigations and recommending the, and that's been accepted and that there has been a push. Towards. More middle income the missing middle housing and I think that there's been talk about. The airport site as a potential solution to that issue. And so what I would like for us to explore is ways that we can create less expensive costs of a unit because my understanding is that There's been some recent affordable housing developments where the cost per unit is somewhere around $700,000 a unit and it's really hard to do affordable housing when one unit to build in a multi family complex is $700,000.

[7:14] And so I would like if we can sort of explore things like smaller, like maybe SRs or. Or micro units or some sort of. Creative where there's like. Potentially adaptive reuse of an office where maybe some of the units don't have windows or they're smaller units on the windows and more like common space in the middle or maybe they share a bathroom or maybe they don't, but it seems to me that It's gonna be really hard to build a lot of affordable housing if new construction is 7 $100,000. So more on the story is or whatever I would like to see if we can start exploring ways of reducing the $700,000 cost.

[8:03] Very good topic. Good. You're looking for reactions. Reaction, add on to what Karen is introduced. I guess I would, ask maybe if staff have an opinion about what's driving the high cost of housing in Boulder. We talk about it at planning, about what's driving the high cost of housing in Boulder. And we talk about the main factor that we often talk about the main factor that is driving the high-grass housing is just the cost of purchasing the land. Or whatever the building is that you're going to be rehabbing. And, you know, Boulder has some pretty strict, deep instruction standards and energy efficiency standards that do rate the cost of the unit somewhat, but my understand was the primary driver is just the initial cost to purchase because we're land limited. I don't know, Jay or Terry, if you have about that. I would agree with you. I mean, land is the biggest cost and reason why it's been escalating as much of the house, but also just materials, labor, everything, inflationary pressures.

[9:08] Terry can go into more detail. But I would also just add that, you know, the regulatory environment boulder also adds to it. Yeah, so all the energy requirements, all the good things that we'd like to see, the high design. You know. Materials, high quality materials, all that stuff. It's everything. It's everything. It all adds up. The land is definitely a big issue. You can mitigate land by adding more units and density and whatnot. So the land cost per unit goes down with more density but Here's an example. You build a house, any type of dwelling unit here. You the energy requirements. Solar sprinklers this that high in efficiency furnaces the installation packages All that stuff is probably 15% more than 10 min.

[10:02] Just that and then land and then the permit fees Crazy. More than anybody would ever imagine what you pay for permit fees. Some of that's inclusionary zoning sometimes. Some of it's just the permit fees, some of it's just the permit fees, then you know, you almost always need to. Because there's not like cut and paste plans that you can go out of the city both but just submit them like you're, you know, so that's a lot of money. It can be a lot a lot of money for architects and engineering and all that stuff. Deconstruction if there's a building there already. Twice as much because you try to recycle and I could talk about this all night but you try to recycle you know every piece of concrete and every piece of wood if you go out and watch this happening you're like oh, you know, but that's the rules. So it all adds up. It all adds up. And that's what makes it very expensive. So I totally get the land fast. And I agree with Terry that. We can't really change the land costs, but the cost per unit can be reduced.

[11:02] If you make smaller. But then I guess. Jay and I were talking, I think at the last meeting about the new facility out at Arapaho where, there's going to be. I think at the last meeting about the new facility out at Arapaho where, there's going to be construction of like modular homes on site, which may or may not reduce some of the costs. So like these are all like I don't think there's one solution. There may be sort of a multitude of solution and I don't know has there been an exploration of reduced permitting fees or reduce other things if it's going towards affordable housing. It seems like that so you're proposing this as a discussion topic. Yes, because it seems, I mean, I support that because it's Like that just barely touched on the surface saying that yeah, this is a big topic and maybe we can dig into it. And come on to possibility. I think that would be a really interesting topic to say. They are all think here's the breakdown what contributes to the cost of housing like you were just doing off the top of your head, which is amazing.

[12:08] But here are all the things that contribute to why, cost more in bolder than 10 min down the road and then look at each piece. Is there other things that would be effective and efficient to do for various pieces and try to find. I know the planning department has tried to look at some of the regulations and regulatory processes and where can be streamlined, like don't require use for for certain things. For example, that reduces the use review of these. But is there more of that? That could be done if you kind of break it down piece by piece and think about all the things that we do that ratchet it up. And that's a great situation. I think it's a great idea. Love it. Yeah. Just land thing It's big obviously. I would love it if the city. Could be persuaded. To look at opportunities. And really, that my basis, I'm not really clear.

[13:06] The city's land holdings and whether those opportunities exist. But we know there's some parking lots. Okay. Welcome, Bill. Can you hear us? Yes, hi. Can you hear me? Great. Yes, can hear you loud and clear. We are up to. Item 5 on the agenda A, which, we're discussing topics of the letter council, which would be due to the new council in probably early 24. And Karen Clarement introduced the subject of how can we reduce the cost of building. Even multi-family. Which, you know, we've heard it might be 700,000 per home. Probably hard to get a portability.

[14:04] At that rate. So, we've started to talk about. How's to build land cost now? A moment. For the cause of affordable housing. That's part of the reason I was to keep on nagging about the airport because it's a hundred 80 I don't know if that discussion is going anywhere, but maybe there's other opportunities to see. Did do a, survey. They have got an inventory of their facilities and, I've been in touch with Michelle Crane. It's like, you know, what do you think? Are there any surplus properties? And she says, not really, there's somewhere thinking of selling. Cause we need money to complete alpine awesome. But I think, that is worth more.

[15:02] The other thing that I've heard to me is that when there's an opportunity to do a mixed use building. So you should do that. I pick the design of the new library in North Boulder is really nice, but disappointing this basically one story building. You could have had 2 stories of housing. Above that. So opportunities like that, I mean, that's basically the same as free land. And the third thing that I worked on a little bit in the past, there's something we can do with incentivizing zoning to convert. Badland use parking lots that are used, for example, into housing sites. I think we actually have an example of that. With what's happening, so. Could you do something, man? Really, to. You know, 10 more of those. And why can't you just go all over down? 23 degree you have under your commercial properties and redeveloping those next use of these stories.

[16:03] So And my ideas. Michael, can I just tag on to that quickly that I know that tab either has or is considering sending a letter to City Council with some recommendations and one of them is a eliminating parking minimums. Which would go towards reusability of parking lots or bringing up that land to be more available for, so I don't know if you wanted to talk to, we're bringing up that land to be more available for housing. So I don't know if you wanted to talk to, about that Just read and I think it was in today's camera and I guess, that New York City has parking minimums. Really? Like nobody owns cars. It's funny. Yeah, and I think another, and discussion about. Not requiring additional parking or parking permits in single family neighbors. Not aware of that one, but it seems like there's some crossover between your interest and, and, reusability with parking and tabs interest in minimizing.

[17:06] Right, so. Let me have a bigger discussion about this in December that would bring ideas. Started developing, at least moving towards a policy recommendation for a new capital release. I'm sorry. Absolutely. Can I piggy back on that last point? Can I piggy back on that last point? Yeah, I, Don't think I have the right vocabulary for this. This is kind of a brainstorm that I've tried a couple of times to to start but along the lines of considering parking and parking minimums and. Regulating that. I think it would be nice to have another tool of some sort. That had to do with. Covenants around, leases and parking, from the, from the housing point of view.

[18:04] Just one example of this is thinking about David Adamson's co-OP on North Street and you know, he's contemplating having. The residents there, signed covenants for, car ownership and agreeing to share cars. And, I like that as as an approach to minimize the impact of gentle infill so that you know if you're gonna have a property that's gonna have kind of like more intensity on it to have, you know, maybe, maybe it can all be done through the the parking, regulations, but to me it seems like maybe there's a complementary. Tool that we could create that has to do more with the lease or the, they're living the, you know, the covenants that the people who live there.

[19:01] Agreeing to not own cars. And that you're talking about a, people using a card share record like sharing private vehicles. Is that what David is talking about? Well, David's talking about having a. Our share that's either, within that co-OP or, is part of the Colorado car. Share. I'm not, I'm not sure. Where that sits right now, but. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I would be perfectly fine too with, you know, having, you know, if we were going to have like a, an ultra car light neighborhood built somewhere in in downtown or one of the you know at a new city center It'd be nice to have a way to say, hey, you know, if living here, you agree to not have a car. Or, or you use car shares. There's something along those nice. Okay. I think we are talking about 2 top 3 things. One is how to reduce parking and new development.

[20:04] And the other is how to recycle. Land where parking exists surface parking and it's not used to capacity, that's, that's. You know, our service partner, or substantially not full. Did you have something? Yeah. If I can tag on to Phillips point there, we did recently have a project come through planning board. No, every project that goes through site review, that board administers has to, talk about their transportation demand management plan and sometimes that element includes how are they going to I mean it basically revolves around how are you going to encourage your residents to drive less to use alternative forms of transportation and sometimes it gets to, like how many parking spots are they requesting? They're usually requesting a reduction in their required number of parking spots. And to justify that, we had one project that came through and said that as part of their lease, this was a student housing project.

[21:04] The students were required to either vouch that and they had to sign this with their parents that they did not have a car that they had not brought a car with them to Boulder or that they had a place to park it they had either paid for a space one of the spaces in that building in that building parking or they could show that they had for a space in a different parking garage and that was part of their lease requirements. So I think what you're talking about, we do have some examples of where that is being done. Okay. I don't know if the city has anything to do with it, but that was one of the buildings in Boulder. Yeah, I don't remember if that was the Millennium or if it was the Millennium, or if it was a different, it might have been a student housing project that they're wanting to do at baseline in 20 eighth. . But one of them that was part of their transportation, management proposal was we're gonna require the students to either not bring a car or show us where they're going to park it because the concern of course is that the person stills over into the neighborhoods and impacts the neighbors. Yeah, it's very considered. Yeah, I mean, you know, they're trying to get their project approved, but I thought that was a nice provision.

[22:04] Cool. I'll make another, I'll try to steer respect to housing. But they're really, I'm, starting to be impressed. Alright, how many people are getting around on the. Bikes? I think they're only using their cars to port. Including this is some people like 9 year olds on. But I think, okay, that's a practice in a way, but in the other hand, the kids parents are not driving over around town. But I just wonder if it's gonna get around to doing the study to see if this is. I have an impact. The EBI can set it program. Are you aware of that? I am. Okay. I'm just gonna send it program. Are you aware of that? Yes, I am. Okay. I was just gonna send you like And you could apply to get a voucher everyone from the city and then they would. They would give you that doctor and I think they would like track your usage of it somehow over a year or 2.

[23:00] But you get to pay for it. Definitely. Some statistics on that. On on a related topic like I know they just put on baseline. Not just a dedicated bike lane and not a bike lane with those like stand up. White things that all over but they literally put those cement blocks and I'd be curious. If someone's collecting data to notice whether the more there is a dedicated safe lane, whether that makes people feel safer and therefore more people are violent. I buy a baseline today and they're in Jersey areas probably this high and they're painted with or something. I thought, wow, that is way better than those stupid, you know, rubbery things. I just, I wonder at some point whether.

[24:04] There's a tipping point and this really makes a difference. I'm talking about ebikes instead of cars. It's like when I go to ideal work. I used to be like the only person with a bike. And now I can't find a place for like my life. And those people are not just after a joy ride. For budget riding, they're doing food dropping and basic service. Well, I feel like this is more transportation than housing, but one last comment is that there times when I've wanted to bike but I won't be able to watch my bike the whole time when I'm doing something. And I don't want it stolen because it is an e bite and so I don't bike. So there needs to be some. Recognition of like improved safety so that your ebike doesn't get stolen if you decided that. And it'd be good for the police department to release statistics about when and how bicycles are being stolen. Cause I know lots of people who bike around and how bicycles are being stolen. Cause I, I know lots of people who bike around constantly and have never had a issue with their bike around constantly and have never had a issue with their bike, but some do get stolen. So is that happening overnight?

[25:06] Is it happening out of people who bike around constantly and have never had a issue with their bike, but some do get stolen. So is that happening overnight? Is it happening out of people's garages? Is it happening mostly on campus? Is it happening mostly if you have a certain kind of lock that's easily cut? Like what contribute to bike that so that people can feel more safe. Yeah. So bringing it back to, something, something, something to keep an eye on is like, are we gonna see a reduction in the man? For parking. In a way that could benefit house. I don't know if that's something we want to put a letter or not, but it's a good thing to think about. Or is it cause and effect, right? Like if there's reduced parking, right? Like if there's reduced parking, then more people will bike as opposed to more people will bike as opposed to more people are biking, then more people will bike as opposed to more people are biking or we need less parking, then more people will bike as opposed to more people are biking or we need less part. Like, 20 bucks an hour, people are gonna park less. So like right now I would say parking is very affordable in the parking.

[26:01] I know that like increasing parking will upset a lot of the the businesses but it is sort of that. You know, chicken and egg. So. Laura is playing for any discussion about resetting surface parking lot since that come up at all. Oh, it came up in the East Boulder sub community plan. And I think the decision there was just that. The parking lots that were available like we're in the flat on our business park in that kind of area. That there was some ability to encourage, to. But just like plopping a building down in a parking lot. Where you're based living in an office park or something like that or living in a shopping center is wasn't seen as being a really desirable housing product. And so I think I think that there is a lot of talk about redeveloping shopping centers so that they are, multi-use and have like housing above and that kind of thing, but, just taking a parking lot, usually where you have a parking lot is just.

[27:04] It doesn't have any open space, any green space, most of our, we have requirements in the building code that if you build residential you have a certain number amount of open space per unit. So it just wasn't seen as a great opportunity, but that goes to this idea of what are the barriers in our code and some of those be changed. And onsite open space seems like it might be one of those things to take a look at. And when we did in the zoning for affordable housing, reduce some of those onsite open space requirements for certain types of multifamily development. Didn't eliminate it, but reduced it. We'll use the different metric. It's a declining shopping centers, your basement, sunrise center is not so active, DAGLE. Plaza, it's starting to be redeveloped. And, I don't know, I'm gonna translate into a policy discussion, but it seems like the future opportunity there and it's almost like land biking. I definitely think that there is interest and momentum around the idea of redeveloping that when these shopping centers are going to redevelop and they're currently like a lot of like one story or maybe 2 story shopping centers that there could be a better use of that land.

[28:12] Nope, if you wanna say anything about but. Might be a something to put into a letter. The new council about future housing priority. Good. I didn't come to the meeting with prepared comments on it. I'm sorry. No problem. You know, the other thing that occurred to me is there might be some policies that councils adopted that are ready for. Some, and tweaking. And I was, through, some of the candidates thoughts about housing. And one of them said. You know, why don't we, tweak the new occupancy rules and only allow you to increase your IT if you agree to.

[29:04] Keep an affordable rental rate. And I actually ran into this person. I said, how would you do that? And they said. Same way they do, but they do you basically sign a piece of paper and you get a variance and, and if you have to agree to keep the price in that. Registered a range of affordability. I thought that was a pretty cool idea. Good. And as you know, we approved the, we, an approval, like increasing occupancy a few months ago, but it was with some reservations. It's one of my representations that might not, improve affordability because a lot of landlords will just continue to charge the same rent per room or bed. Without, you know, not subdivided by a larger number. So. I mean, that's just an example. I'm not saying that should be a recommendation, but there. You know, there's been a lot of changes in the last year and they could be looking at some updates to.

[30:07] Alright. We don't have to go into it tonight, but we did talk at planning board. I actually made a recommendation when planning board look at occupancy to think about ask staff to look at find it to affordability. And there's some pretty strong arguments about why that might not be the best. You might have a different, in different decision. But I think that council looks at that and decided not to do that. Different decision, but I think that council looks at that and, decision, but I think that council looks at that and decided not to have a different, decision. But I think that council looks at that and decided not to do that. We can talk about the reasons why another time if you want, but I'm curious to know because I was all about that too. I was like, why wouldn't you do that? Because when you do rental licenses, for if if an owner like a private or wants to rent their house they have to meet certain energy efficiency requirements actually quite stringent and I'm like if we're going to do that for energy efficiency why would we do that for the efficiency why would we do that for portability that we care about that just as well. And I've been persuaded that maybe that's not the best. And again, I don't wanna take a few time to talk about that, but I've been happy to talk about the pros and cons that we talked about in planning board and cons that we talked about in planning board and I talked to my last line.

[31:05] That might be a future discussion. Lush out some of these. Ideas. And maybe I'm going to, trying to see some discussion and they'll be really great to roll out and they can't assume it's December sixth meeting, but that's the next item. I think publicly noticing would be good too because you get some comments on that from the people who were supporting the occupancy change and why they did not like the idea of talking to portability and you get that directly from them rather than. Yeah, you know, that was just the notion that I'm reporting. Not ready to go to recommendation on that. That's too. Well, we have plenty of time. I think I don't want Russia if we could also move on. And more about the letter and topics. Again, we can have a really robust discussion on this at our next meeting.

[32:14] Can I make one suggestion? I know you're talking about Michael. Revisiting some of council's decisions from this term in terms of effectiveness and any additional like tweaks. I think council did sometimes say, hey, there should be a phase 2 and and any additional like tweaks. I think council did sometimes say, hey, there should be a phase 2 and here are the things that could happen in a phase 2. We're not ready to approve it now. And I don't know if that could happen in a phase 2 and here are the things that could happen in a phase 2 and here at the things that could happen in a phase 2, like we're not ready to approve it now. And I don't know if the things that could happen in a phase 2, we're not ready to approve it now. And I don't know if staff or somehow or not support some of those things. I think that, yeah. Can I make it? Okay. Go ahead. Oh, yeah. One way to think about, a letter of recommendation to city council is, contemplating and I don't remember how this works and I've ever been through this process before but.

[33:05] You know the bolder valley comprehensive plan is to to be, you know, the wheels for updating that are going to start turning here soon. And We should kind of like understand what that process is and what the calendars like and anticipate having recommendations to City Council for you know, updates to the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan because this has been a theme that keeps coming up, right? Is like, you know, when we asked, Carl to, you know, consider maybe more aggressively, updating the zoning. He was like, well, we're, kind of doing this within the bounds of what's in the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan. So I just wanted to say that as kind of like an umbrella. you know, idea to kind of map, you know, shape our conversation.

[34:02] Well, that's, a really great thought and we're on it. We've talked about having a presentation. Okay. I've been in game that I've ever seen. We're like, this is a complement thing we're gonna. It's really confusing. So we're gonna have an educational session, I think, in January with Christopher. Our long-range fighter, right? Fine manager. And he's going to talk about how to count line works, how it can be updated and areas where we might be influential. So thank you for reminding us about that because we've got it coming up. So that's part of the phase 2 concept, right? So there's a lot of work that council tried to get done that before with this council before the elections. And so when something controversial came up, they were like, well, maybe that's a phase 2. But the comp plan is a really big phase 2. So the comp plan is really key. If you want a lot more potential for additional, and I think it's related to everything that you were just described.

[35:09] Like it's 5 years, right? Every year's last update was 2020. So that preparing in 2024 for the 2025 update. Great. Thank you. 2024 for the 2025 update. Great. Thank you. It's not a major update. It's the minus. It's not a major update. It's not a major update. It's not a major update. It's the minus. It's not a major update. It's the minus date. So, 20 and 30 is the major. Or maybe it's the There's certain things that are categorized as major and certain things that are categorized. Okay, let's say a minor. All 2 point. Workarounds. Anyway, it'll be a great discussion.

[36:10] That's like thinking about the customers. It's a big, okay. Any other thoughts before we go over to agenda item B and C. I just provide a little bit more context. The letter, like I said, we don't know what the questions are going to be at. Right. I'm just thinking about. What do you think are the important work? So the tab member that came and talked about. You know, getting rid of our. Establishing working maximums. She also talked about strengthening our transportation. Everything you guys were just talking about. And the city does this in certain districts. So Boulder Junction, you know, every single person is, it has an, and has access to car sharing.

[37:02] And used to have great access to transit. So maybe they'll come back again. We're gonna do the same thing. So I mean, there are tools out there. And we are using those, but the question is how do you, that and so you can also invite a transition planner to come and talk about it. Love to share all the data that they collect every year. About travel happens. So I mean, they do extensive data collection. To track what is, you know, home. What are the annual bike trips this year versus last year? So, you know, the pandemic definitely through wrench and all that. But I think we're, getting back contract a little bit. If you do a joint meeting with, or would that be? So, but I think from my perspective, if I was on council and I saw that both have and Tab talked about, you know, we think one year most important project should be.

[38:03] Dealing with, that would be pretty powerful. Can you remind us if you're familiar with it? What are some of the parking and transit innovations plan for alpine calls It's gonna be very similar to, Boulder Junction. So the, we're not providing any parking on site for the affordable housing buildings. So basically, everybody gets to transfer fast. Everybody has access to. Ride share our car sharing of some sort. They, Okay, affordable units. There's some weird tax law about, not, you cannot, charge additional for, for an affordable unit but part of our some principles so Yes, remember that. So, what is it? Shared so you don't get your own parking space. You have to share it.

[39:09] Unbundled, it can't be basically rolled into your, so that way you make a conscious choice to have a car. It's all managed and you have to have a car. It's all managed and you have to pay for it. So that's the basic. Those are the 4 principles of, parking demand strategy. And that will be applied at, and they'll create a district. I have a group that will oversee how it's administer. Third road. And make sure that there's money. In the district pay for these services. Is that? Is, car share available? Right. And the parking ratio is proposed there. You know, I don't remember the, but the parking was basically, We're taking an existing partner right now.

[40:00] The parking structure. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Michael, may I? Just suggest if you're gonna do a joint meeting with tab planning board might also be interested if that is something that Okay. I percent would love and I can't see critical plan. You'd have to, you know, talk to your chair in the cochlear and, and see that I think that'd be a great idea. Yeah. And then if I'm hearing Jay, focus on on topics like parking. Okay, well let's make that happen. And then if I'm hearing Jayraj focused on on topic like parking. Yes. Okay, well, let's make that happen. And especially if you are thinking of potentially supporting that those recommendations that tab is. Talking about with the work plan that they already have their kind of like here's the key work plan item that we think is focusing on the parking and the TA transportation demand management. They did ask us planning board if we as individuals wanted to sign on to their letter to council, but I think having a joint session to talk about that because there is a lot of interest on planning board on, you know, what do we require, I'm like,king and what is that doing to our affordability and things like that.

[41:09] Yeah, it could be as simple as just having it on the have agenda and inviting, you know, the board members. Figure out, right? So who's running a meeting? And,'s running a meeting. And,'s running a meeting. It's just expert to kind of, leave the, somebody from transportation, anyone you recommend? Good director. You're on the phone. Okay, anything else on item A? I've already mentioned, it would be, probably sensible for us to fold in November and December meetings.

[42:02] Into one meeting. Possible date is Wednesday, December sixth. we can discuss that. Everybody wanna check their, available on December sixth. I would just have a request that we would. Consider December thirteenth instead. My sixth folder chambers hosting. Women, young girls and Jenna Griswold is going to be there. Hey, King. Take my daughter she doesn't know it yet. Anyone let's do another calendar check. And, Cause there's no reason we couldn't have a week later, something gets a little bit in other Okay. The thirteenth is preferred for me. It's better for me. I'm sorry, the thirteenth. Okay, good to know. That after school.

[43:11] That works for me. Yes. Hi, everyone would like to make a motion regarding canceling the November meeting and having a within meeting, Wednesday, December thirteenth. So, second. Second. All in favor? So, in your calendar. Wednesday, December thirteenth. Thank you everybody. It's gonna be like holiday where we have it off site or is this like, no, this is meeting meeting. Meeting. I think we should have a outside. Of site different. Okay. That's right. It's not efficient. Thank you, already. Updates. Got 2 listed there could be others, of course.

[44:04] The airport I haven't heard anything encouraging about. Great new neighborhood. But I wonder if anybody who's been involved, any more precise. I have not heard any scuddle but about the airport. I'm nothing, nothing to add. So they, I can just summarize that the community work group is done. Finished. No more meetings for that. And staff is in a period of work. As directed by council and studies, the last study session that they had, and, you know, that their main focus is going to be looking at feasibility and cost of converting the airport to a neighborhood. And so that research is underway and that research will be presented to the new council in the first quarter. And so I think things are kind of in a holding pattern until after the election, your new council is in place. I do think that the positions of many of the candidates were likely to get elected is quite favorable to.

[45:04] Repurposing the airport or at least they are open to that. And so I think that after the election is finished and we know who our new council is, that would be the time to start trying to talk to people. And, you know, send letters and express an opinion if have has one about that. And as part of that research also including like the or feesability of. Buying out the FAA or is that part of the cost you were mentioning? Yes. So they're called. So I'll grab my notebook. Here's what Natalie said at the last community working group meeting. It might take me a second to locate it, but she said that. Let's see. What they're gonna focus on is one legal analysis of What is the potential likelihood of prevailing in a lawsuit against the FAA to get decommissioned?

[46:00] Like what have other airports done? How is their situation the same or different than ours legally? So you know they're getting they're talking to outside council basically who've done this before because the FAA is not gonna let the airport go willing. They just don't ever before because the FAA is not going to let the airport go willingly. They just don't ever. For sure. So it will be pretty much pretty much guaranteed. The FAA will say no. And folder wants to decommission the airport. There would be a litigation. So there's a legal analysis that's happening about, you know, what is, what are the risks and costs of litigation and how likely is with us any need to prevail given our unique circumstances. Against the FAA, the fair perspective and perhaps have the estate come speak to council and then a financial analysis of what would it cost to continue down the road of decommissioning for closure, including if the city had to operate in the airport without FAA funding for a period of years, what would that cost? And if we are required to reimburse the FAA for land. Which is a question mark. The FAA helped us to purchase some lands.

[47:06] There were certain contracts in place at the time that happened, the FAA would like to retroactively apply some current policy to that. So there's a question of whether that's legal or not, would the court agree that the FAA can do that? But if we had to reimburse the land purchases, what would that cost? Okay, thank you. Great. And I suppose that also plays into the I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. So the airport. Manager has said that they would they're planning to do an airport master plan update in 2025 and that has always been described as separate from the comp plan. I think they have tried to keep it separate, but Jay may know better. Imagine it would be suffering. Yeah, and whatever area plan determines for this owning and land use. And then we do an update, automatic update, the next account update.

[48:05] Yeah, but, the airport manager position as far as I can tell is that he, believes that you will need to operate the airport for the indefinite future. And he's rolling ahead with the airport master plan as if the airport is going to continue. So that's scheduled for 2025. And it would take the direction of council to do anything different. Okay, thank you. Anyone else, any airport? Okay. Oh, Danny, sir. Hi, Danny. See you. Hi, sorry, sorry I'm late. And virtual but Even, Breaker, one of those places. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I was all the way out on the, Western slope, but no, back home, so. Okay. Well, no one minds. I'll do a quick review. We have a full, full deck of, have numbers here.

[49:07] If we had a, like, is also joined us, virtually. We had a discussion. We had no public. We had a discussion about the letter to the new council, which we're probably gonna wanna send in January. We need to see who the new council is first. And get us into what they're looking for. Yeah. We already talk about some topics we might want to include in a letter. One would be, how to bring down the, cost of building. Affordable housing, which if you know it's really expensive, you're gonna be doing. Smokey family units. Another is, how can we deal with, land costs, other opportunities to rededicate. Surplus land, the city owns or the rezone. I think you use parking lots, in ways that they could become future housing similar with happening.

[50:03] But basically it's a opening gambit and, we also voted to move our to cancel or never remove meetings as we did last year and have a single meeting end of year December thirteenth. Okay. Yes. Does that work for your day? Oh good, good news. Where's our bike? And that meeting we're gonna have an agenda item. About. What we might want to put in the letter and everyone's going to give it a lot of thought before then. Okay. We just got into the updates. the airport update is kind of go away. Don't talk about housing at the airport. Not really. It's complicated as you know, but, let's just say there's no plans to turn the airport in the neighborhood into a neighbor at this point. And I was just about to talk about Boulder Junction. You know, anybody else has updates, pretty free to add them.

[51:02] So, I was on the. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. As a point of clarification, just to make sure that I heard right. So, is it, is it, just almost like a given that the FAA will litigate against the city if we try to close down the airport. Yeah. Laura can answer that because she just talked about that. I think that's true. I think I think every community that has successfully closed an airport has had to go through litigation. I think every community that has successfully closed an airport has had to go through litigation. So yes, that would be part of the process. Cheese. . Will not let it go willingly Okay, alright. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure I heard that right. Just like. Yeah, I think so. So at the council study session. You will have an airport. Don't like it. Okay. I think at the council study session there were some council members who were of the opinion that it is just impossible to close the airport and we should stop talking about it. Right. But where, where it landed was we need to do more research and investigate the feasibility and see what it would cost to try to shut it down and how long would it be and what are the risks like legal risks.

[52:04] So that is what staff is currently investigating. And then that research will be presented to the new council. So I would not, I would definitely not say that the idea of a new neighborhood is dead. I certainly don't consider it to be dead. I'm still interested in discussing it. I just, I think we're in kind of a holding pattern where some research is being done and well the new council is being done and well the new council is not yet elected. Okay, alright, thank you. Yeah, I'm probably talking about it all day. So it's good conversation. Going. Another thing we talked about is the forthcoming, minor update to the older rally comp plan. And then some, we'll provide some opportunities for have to weigh in on some issues as we've discussed. In previous meetings, some things we would like to recommend are just not possible. Complain this minute if you recall that conversation with. Yep. Carl Guyler. So that's, something we can talk about in December and then we're also going to have, Christopher Johnson, the long range planner, come to a presentation about the comp plan in January, that's kind of, and, You see, boy, not kind of actually happening.

[53:13] And then that will give us a better idea where that conversation might go, including thoughts we can put into a letter to counsel. So I think, do, do you have any thoughts about the plan and what's coming up, Danny? Nothing in particular, but. You know several thoughts but you know Hopefully, you know, it will enable us to kind of go down the path on some of the things that the cities already started in a little more detail once we have. You know the complain going so Great. Well, Oh, junction, or, 2, 2. I was on the multi board working group. We're wrapped up in this work for now in the fall. Both planning board and city council voted unanimously to adopt what would, phase 2 amendments in the transit village area plan.

[54:05] I'm actually reading from a note from Christopher Justin here. Next step will be to formally update the Boulder Valley count plan, land use map, which we hope to complete before the end of the year. That's different than updating the whole. And that's something that will happen, it is possible that the, multi board working group will continue. Christopher's team is thinking about that through, but, back. Have may continue to be involved through that. So, as we discussed, I was pretty happy with the outcome on that because, page 2, all the, very well have a lot of. And that's something I think as a board, very much in favor, obviously.

[55:03] Yeah. Anyone else need to add an update? Only once. Iem 6 matters from staff. Okay. Yes. Yeah, so I just wanted to start out by reiterating how much has been accomplished by the city in the past 2 years. It's actually pretty. Just in terms of the number of projects they got through, a lot of it in the last few months. But the including our housing update, does go to council on the second of November. So it'll be public hearing. Hopefully that'll get, adopted as well. One last meetings before, the following week is going to be a study session discussing the boarding commission evaluation that was done.

[56:05] Remember, hopefully everybody participated in that. Survey or did something But anyways, so we can take all of your feedback. And this is written the report and that will get shared out as part of that. Study session. I would definitely recommend you take a look at that. And I guess it should be pretty interesting. And then what else? So the, 2 of you have terms coming up. So Terry. And. Yeah, as well. But the applications are open. I strongly encourage you to reapply, you know, most likely get reappointed.

[57:11] Okay. Next year. At the end of next year, like right now. 5 years. That's so much fun. I didn't feel it. But yeah, we might an area. Oh, I have a years. Please consider. Okay, sorry. So the applications will go out, in December. Council typically, you know, makes decision in February and then they get seated in March. Every year there is a third questions for Karen and you both remember most recently you did this. They check with the boards and commissionals every year to make sure we wanna have the same questions. And based on what the feedback that I saw from the consultant report and what we heard from, of boards and commission members across the city.

[58:03] Would that apply and for a forwarding commission? Just in terms of the amount of time and effort and. That went into it. So. I was gonna suggest that we might wanna reduce the number of questions. And I'll put them up and you can see them to me. They sound a bit redundant. Julian, you probably still remember. You're in. I do remember there being a lot of questions but it led me to take it seriously. How you said? Yeah, as if it was applying for a professional position, you know, something from a resume. Yeah. And I do think that, I mean, I don't have any problem looking at the questions again, but I do think. If that taking the time to think through the issues and come up with. Answers? Council to evaluate whether someone would be a valued contributing member to the.

[59:06] To the board because if the questions were too easy like why isn't there portal like we should have more affordable housing like it's Some of the solutions are naive if you don't understand all of the issues underlying. And so I think that Okay. Having questions that at least let's, let City Council understand the thought process is really important to ensure that we have a board that can. Provide really good insight and suggestions. Somebody's gonna reapply with answer all the same questions, right? I'm wondering if that should be different. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they've already answered last year, so. You wanna continue your time for another 5 years or you know, ask those kinds of questions like. It's, it's the same application.

[60:03] So we could we look at the questions again and make a recommendation like these are relevant or not relevant or redundant or redundant or redundant. There's a couple of people made good points ahead. And, I don't remember how many patients got we got, but we had a good number of applications, never really thoughtful when we really did well with the people who were selected. But there were other good candidates, so I don't, see how people were being discouraged from. Okay. Maybe think about it differently. So, You guys have the time and the means. To spend a lot of effort. So if we do want more diversity in our fourth and commissions. This is a way to get because not everybody has that same luxury that I would say many of our boards and commission members have.

[61:12] I think that is a fair point and also the reality of being on a board takes time. The effort that it takes to get on the board with the effort that it's going to take to be a board member. It does, we people out, right? And we talked about that a lot on planning board that it's, you know, it's almost like a day or 2 of work, a week to fair. Do many follow up and all that. And that is going to be, because of just the amount of work of the board. This one seems a bit lighter. Like it probably doesn't take quite as much of your time every month. This one seems a bit lighter. Like it probably doesn't take quite as much of your time every month. So, maybe it probably doesn't take quite as much of your time every month. So, maybe it could be an easier lift for people who don So our board has.

[62:01] It's drilling down, but it has some balance. We've got gender balance. Certainly we have some folks who rent, not everybody, it's up, Well, that's a requirement. To have a record. But we haven't probably haven't done that well. People color. So one of the points you're driving on check, you can do better. Do you have any requirements about people who live in affordable housing? That seems like that would be a very useful thing to have in your board membership. So when you're kind of blurred, that's on the BOARD. HOUSE. And we actually came up with a matrix and said if this board is going to be advising the institution that it would be good to have a developer. A lawyer, someone who knew financial stuff. You know, attendant, someone who is a resident, like, so it wasn't. It wasn't just gender and ethnicity. It was also the skill set that can help provide some insight like.

[63:08] I am so looking forward to hearing what Terry has to say about the various costs that go into a unit because I don't know them as well. I'm not a developer, I'm a vendor. So I do think that Yes, it would be great. Have more diversity but I also think that There are other criteria that should be evaluated to decide who gets on the board. Yeah, as an interesting point. We have other required positions in addition. No, you know, when we formed this board, that was actually the staff recommendation was to have people with this specific expertise, you know, our texture design. Finance and counseling. We don't want that. It should be open to everybody. So it's sort of basic question.

[64:05] What is the purpose of the city's boards and commissions? Is it to provide experts who are familiar with this subject matter to provide advice to city council or is it to help them with their broader community engagement? And so it anyway, this is a good conversation and I think this is what council is gonna discuss in 2 weeks. That's why I would encourage you to. Thank you. About it between now and then, you know, potentially share some thoughts that you might have. Because I think you can influence it. Outreach to folks who for example live in BHP. To say, hey, we really want to apply for board. Well, that's an interesting question too because so staff isn't really involved in recruiting or, any evaluating. It's all done, centralized through this city. Corps office. Right. But basically there's an announcement, Yeah.

[65:04] How would you find it? Okay, let's see their pass planning board member or. Absolutely, you can. I don't know. But I didn't receive any notification. Or its mouth of just somebody who I happen to know. No, I mean, there isn't, you're not gonna get an email from the city. It's but it's all the sounds in all very different social media channel. I guess as far as trying to be more inclusionary and trying to reach more people. Unless they're serving the city website. Can I, share a thought based on my experience in the, the working group? So that group went above and beyond. I have, and I facilitate public process for everything. I've never been a part of a public process. Where they made such an effort to include people who lived in a disadvantaged community and were bilingual.

[66:00] That whole process was conducted byilingually in simultaneous interpretation. Materials were translated, staff sat down to community connectors who actually sat on the East. Working group and staff would sit down with them for each meeting, help make sure that they felt. Prepared to understand the topics because they weren't experts in playing. They're community connectors that are connect to those communities. And so there's a lot of jargon being slung around and all of that. And then they got feedback from those community connectors. And it might be useful to talk to Gene Gas about what that experience was. Because my impression is that Thank you, connectors kind of felt like sitting through all those meetings and being involved at the very granular level. And being involved at the very granular level was not a great use of their time and it was not a great use of their time and it was a big burden on that. As part of their job to be there but you know people were having to like be on the phone in their car during meeting times because they had childcare responsibilities or work responsibilities and and that participating through interpretation was quite difficult and they didn't really feel like part of the group.

[67:11] And so they moved more towards the model that the airport working group used where they had separate meetings with the community that were held Spanish first. Where the English speakers were the ones who were receiving the interpretation and the presentations were being given in Spanish. Not quite the same equivalent, but I'm wondering if there's some. I've been trying to, for the boards and commissions. If. The people who sit on the boards are largely the people with specific expertise, but that there's some way to connect with the communities on specific topics and have very focused sessions that are less of a demand on people's time. Maybe there's some kind of hybrid model that might work better for some of the boards. That are more intensive or more. Policy wonky, where are you? Probably unlikely to get someone who has. You know certain diversity characteristics but is not an expert in a certain field that is tied to that board.

[68:01] Does that make sense? It's a really touchy subject, right? Because you want to be inclusive and you also don't want someone to be tokenized and like you're only here because you represent a certain community even though this topic is not particularly anything that you're interested in or work in. So it's a really hard topic to even talk about, let alone figure out how to do. I'm gonna stop it. Sorry. No, wanted to be, welcome in place for anybody to reply, question. Good that to providing the application is. It's only been something. Get to recommend on or? Yeah. Oh, the questions is the only thing that you do have control over. I mean, your points will take and the questions. Makes you take it seriously. But I would say having to go in front of city council is much more intimidating than filling out an application.

[69:14] Yeah. So these are, are there, 10 questions? Like where is number one? These are ones that are specific. I could see getting rid of 7. So I don't know how many people know the initiatives. Good. But, you'll get that if you want to. Yeah. I mean, if it's readily available, maybe, if there's some way to prompt people to edify themselves in some of those things if they need to, but I think the whole notion of Yeah, familiar eyes and yourself with some of that stuff is kind of important. Right, so.

[70:09] There be a link to a website like is there a website that gets to know the city's housing initiatives. Yeah. That'd be great if there was a link or something. So. To the extent somebody, you know. Wants to learn that they have that opportunity. They don't have to try to just find that generically, but I think. You know, the context. I mean, I think they're, I think they're Good questions. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. I'm not as, not as way back as Terry, but getting close. But I'm pretty sure that was, Pretty similar to the questions that I had. Back in 2018 or whatever it was. I mean, I think, I think they're pretty salient.

[71:03] I've viewed this last last week. I think I did suggest. In addition, maybe it's called another question. Something about what's your experience with having policy. Maybe that's Good manning, I don't know, but it'd be interesting to have someone say, I've served on an HR board or. You know, something. Jay, is it identified anywhere? It said something about like how this why this board came together originally and what the goal was was Is that Can you tell us a little bit like, so what was it?

[72:01] Was it meant to be representative of? It's a little, I'm clear. So, there were the, from certain council members at the time. To have a board that could and to be perfectly honest I think the design was to have a group where the community would go and hatch off the issues before came to council. So that hasn't happened. And I think that's partially why. They resisted having expertise on the board. Cause they thought it is more of a, a community engagement, Okay. And so I mean, that's the basic has, and they wanted it to do more, but there was this tension between. Okay, we already have a planning board. We deal with who the responsible has statutory responsibility for. Reviewing developments we need to draw a clear distinction between housing and in So that's the other piece.

[73:11] So it really left kind of just focusing on housing. And being too. That helps much, but. Okay. You know, you think of this. Do you think, options effectively and if not, how would you improve it? Other than replacing the chair. Hi. Okay. Hmm. It'd be challenging for somebody to use. Okay. Well, at least they would watch. I have meeting before. That was my point. At least they would watch I have meeting before. That's not asking too much. I don't think. Like to tell you, shock me by telling me better 5 years. I can't believe that, but I can tell you.

[74:02] That without question. The last year or 2 years has been. Drastically different than the first year or 2. And in a very positive way. Very, very positive. I think. What we're doing now, whatever the intent was to form the board, what we're doing now is very good. Logical. That it's productive. It's helpful. It's great. I think the direction of things are happening here compared to. 3 years ago, until midnight talking about Whatever, you know, it's way better. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Okay. I mean, literally, we're just like 1130 a few times because everybody just wanted to talk about like. I don't even know. Something happened as well as everything they put into it, but my question is, would you feel better about a Canada who would actually paid attention enough to watch a couple of head meetings even if they were going online. Oh yeah. Watching the recording. So I think that putting that to them is not asking. Too much.

[75:11] I don't think so either. I mean, especially if you have Yeah, like I said, the opportunity to avail yourself of a little bit of insight, you know. Ahead of time. So if you haven't done that ahead of time. Yeah, if we have links or whatever on there. So somebody could kinda get that background. If they if they want to be on the board. With having some of that background, would seem to be. Pivotal first step. So I'm sorry, I like what you said, Tearing about whatever board you referenced earlier. You have. People with expertise in different categories. I think that's really helpful. Really? So, you know, it's like the meeting, you should have knowledge of the topic that I'm reviewing.

[76:03] Yeah. You know, that's just me. You should have knowledge of the topic that I'm reviewing. You know, but that's just me, they're the parent ones together. The first wants to know, you know, I know that's not the same, but to know, I know that's not saying it to me, that sounded great. Like, good. Okay, there's a question about finance. To me, that sounded great. Like, good. Okay, there's a question about finance. You can control that person's question about finance. You can control that person's question about built and you get some real-life knowledge and expertise about. What you're talking about and not kind of talking like, well, we don't know. That's kind of real strength I have to say. Talk to us about financing housing, talk to us about. Developing and the like legal front and others if you bring their own expertise to it but we can't require it. I just think it's great. But you can requirement. I just think it's great. Well, you can requirement. That's what I cancel. That goes directly. Well, that's so that's why I keep mentioning the forwards and commissions evaluation. Is this is the opportunity to reevaluate all of our borders and and determine how effective are it. Okay, they'd be more effective. And how do we redesign the process. But remind me that there was concern from the city.

[77:06] They're not getting as many applications as they once did. That's it. Right. Yeah, I mean, last year, they, I mean, the last several years they've had unfilled vacancies and several boards and commissions. I think that's worse on the boards where they have specific things like some of the district commissions. You have to be a property, you know, just like agent property. And, there. DAVE, I don't know if that has specific expertise that they have to build. I don't know. I wonder if you could just say these are the recommended expertise that we would like to have on the board, but it's not a requirement that you have one seat for an attorney and one seat for a banker and one seat for a developer. One seek for a student. You know. But back to this, do we wanna, are we talking about possibly changing some of these questions right now? Is that the? So that's the question to the group and you know, they're usually only be 2 or 3.

[78:08] And then every time I think I brought this back to the group, they've added. And that's the tendency. Bye. You want somebody to wanted enough to have to sit out and think it through and answer the question. But you don't also want it to be like a barrier to entry where somebody looks at this, goes, I don't wanna deal with that. So where's the balance, right? Well, in my mind, filling out this application took me about as long as attending the board. I spent the time and effort like write in edit it go to the website try and find out what the housing initiatives were and it was for me it was a couple of hours so like if you're not willing to say, try and find out what the housing initiatives were. And it was for me, it was a couple of hours. So like if you're not willing to spend that time, then you're probably not willing to spend the time that this board meeting is. Bye. My recommendation is just keep it as is. Okay. Yeah, I don't I don't see any of these questions as a barrier. To participation and like I said if there's something to you know, make it a little easier to, you know, edify yourself into in terms of, you know, some of the things here, some of the some of the housing initiatives.

[79:19] Some of the functions of the board all the better but i don't see any of these as a barrier and any sort of, different, you know. Consideration group either you know from from from any different perspective it's it's pretty pretty generic Pretty. Broad policy perspective kind of things and I think it you know let's think about one of the reasons why we have these questions too which is to give the city council an opportunity to get some insight into you know what people's philosophies are in that and how they engage in these issues so they can decide who's qualified to serve on the board.

[80:10] So from that perspective too, I think they're very useful. So I wouldn't take her with it. I mean, I think I think it works well. Alright, Jay, when you said, he does, you mean, on the screen or the current? That's something we. Neither think about voting behind or we just reach. As long as you guys are okay with not making changes. Then maybe you tweet that, but if. If historically it has been enough applicants to have a good sort of competition to get you know, you have choices about who you select then. Maybe we don't mess, don't change it. So we had a lot of applications last time, but what's the historical pattern?

[81:04] Yeah, there's never been a lack of candidates, I would say. I mean, housing has been. Thank you for at least, since it was formed. Absolutely, people watch this board. Operate over the last whatever 6 8 months. It's more inviting, you know, whereas before people would call me, be like, what's it like to be on that board? Okay. Yeah. Should I apply? Okay. You don't know it's different. And I mean, for the commissions are reflection of city council. Stayed point. So, you know, the reason why I have struggled in the beginning, for the commissions are reflection of city council, state point. So, you know, the reason why I have struggled in the beginning was I did. Okay, here we are.

[82:02] I was make an observation that those questions I think would probably be intimidating to someone who isn't already working or having a knowledge of how's in policy. Like what should be the top 3 priorities for housing? How can we accelerate the? Creation of a diversity of housing types. If they didn't already have specific knowledge they probably would feel like they didn't belong. So it is skewing towards expertise more so than community representation. Which is tricks. The question like, what would the questions have to be? To result in. More community engagement and diversity. I think it's just the question is my point. It's everything. It's the whole process. Like is it having an interview with City Council?

[83:02] It's just, sorry. I think it's just the promotion of boards and commissions like I did. I wouldn't have known about it to work for the commissions like I did. I wouldn't have known about it for word of mouth. I don't know about most of you, but. I think they could do a much better job. Promoting that and letting people know that it's that these positions are up for collection. And I think that's a good idea. Jay, are there suggestions for how to make it less intimidating the interview with City Council. I know they tried last year with Zoom interviews with just one council member rather than you have to like when I know when I interview for planning board it was like go to city council chambers sit at a long table with all the candidates here city council in front of and they're going to go down the line and ask you to question, right? Which is. Different. Are there changes being proposed? Read the report Okay.

[84:01] 9 November ninth. So study session packets come out 2 weeks before. Sorry, should be precinct. Next week. Will there be opportunity for open comment when they talk about that? This 30 session, but you can send emails. Well, And Michael. Yeah, I have something I wanna say before, we, adjourn, but it's not, directly related to this. Item we're talking about right now. That's all I have it for. Stuff. Before you get there, I'll just say I'm generally okay with these questions. But it would like maybe one leading question in the, you know, asking. Yeah. The application is actually followed what have does, at least. The point of attendees. That's not the question. Maybe it's something like I said.

[85:00] You know, how do you think have functions and how could it be improved? And have to watch a meeting to be able to answer that question. Okay, so Philip, please. Yeah, thank you. I've had one of my little speeches brewing and I'd like permission to rant for for a little bit. That's okay. Oh. Say what? Yeah. Okay. That's grow automobile. Jenny phone. Why did you hear? Yeah, well. Let's see what I drove. Yeah. I want to say that I think we've had a really productive year and, I'm proud of what we've done. I've really enjoyed participating. I, I think, you know, when you think about how technology advances. Often what occurs, what happens is what is referred to as adjacent possible. Like we do this thing now and we look one step over and we see we could do this other thing, incrementally better.

[86:13] And I would say like most of the changes that we've pushed for are kind of fall into that category of adjacent possible. You know, we updated the A to use, we updated occupancy. And I feel great about that. I think we ought to make incremental progress. But I would also like to like. Have some of our effort some of our mind share around like solving big problems taking leaps forward. I mean, we talk about the fact that we have a climate crisis. We have a housing crisis. We have a crisis of affordability and lots of people displaced in in North America that you know are looking for refuge and for safe places and you know I would like I would like bowler to be a welcoming inclusive place. And you know, I would like, I would like Bowler to be a welcoming, inclusive place.

[87:00] That that welcomes people and so You know, when I look around my city and I'm walking through it. There's things about it that just drive me crazy. And I'm I'm sure I've I've ranted about this before but you know I I see 40 foot wide streets everywhere I go and I can't stop seeing them and and they're generally vacant you know there's not I mean in some neighborhoods there's this car carved bumper to bumper which is you know something I've joked about is there's only one thing that makes me more upset than a full parking lot and that's an empty one. And I feel it kind of the same way about streets. If streets are being used, awesome. But I, there's a ton of asphalt in this city that's just like not being being used so that's kind of like but that's i mean maybe that's an aesthetic thing it's it's a land use decision. We have issues around, land costs, right, in, in the value of land and we don't, we, we kind of where we sit.

[88:03] As an advisory board for a city council for a state. We don't really. Thank you, think about how to tackle. Land use or land values in a way that would like kind of upset the system or Change it in a meaningful way, but, I'd like to like, spend some mind share really like. People right about this stuff, it's mostly economists and it's theoretical and it's not really part of the public discourse but you know if if We took some time to do some research and tackle some of these bigger questions. So I've written a few other things down. Another thing that drives me crazy is we have tens of thousands of empty bedrooms. In our city and other ways to think about incentivizing making better use of the housing that we have. We have mobile home parks that, appeared to me to be in a kind of like and a shrink rap state where they they haven't they don't change much and I kind of understand why they don't change much, but I would think that people living in mobile homes, especially people who own their own mobile homes.

[89:17] Might wanna have opportunities to think about how they can improve the property value or improve. But those neighbourhoods are like, and I'm not talking from experience, like I don't know much about mobile homes. We actually kind of like I don't know much about mobile homes. We actually kind of like set them over here as this separate thing. When we talk about that there's no affordable housing. We just we just assume that well excluding mobile homes, right? But you know, they're very large. source of of market rate affordable housing. So, the, meta, oh, and the other thing that I just crave is I want, you know, instead of 4 blocks of Pearl Street. I want a whole district, you know, a square mile of of pedestrian district that has lots of livable places and you know more mixed use above above a lot of businesses and mixed use that is to say more housing above a commercial retail.

[90:14] So, One thing that I think might be kind of something I would like to engage in, you know, I was part of the airport community working group and that's that's kind of a a long range big problem kind of a thing in its own way but i just wonder if there's any appetite for you know maybe doing a research initiative the thing the thing that kind of like comes at me the biggest it has to do with land value in thinking about it. From the terms of, you know, from the perspective of an economist in you know, what are what are possible recommendations we can make to the city to the state that we could lobby for.

[91:02] You know to to Jonah Goose and our congress people around reforming the way Land values work and you know solutions like community land trust or tax reform and and various other things that have been proposed. So anyways, I, I love the adjacent possible stuff. It's, it's fun and we can make progress on it, but I'd also like to like spend some cycles shooting for the moon. Rant over, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really enjoy and learn a lot with your RAM. So to keep ranting. I was We're digging a little bit there because Joe De Goose came up as Jonah Goose on the. Okay. We did talk a little bit about mobile homes when we did our tour and learned a lot about mobile homes when we did our tour and learned a lot about, when we did our tour and learned a lot about, Mapleton, it was fascinating and that I don't recall all of this, but I did recall that.

[92:10] Are the deal other than having big land price stabilized, which is so crucial and preserving the affordability of the loan parks is that they have been able to make improvements infrastructure improvements around, flood control, for example, and other improvements there. So it's just a great model. And then I think you were on the tour last year when we saw the transformation of a low quality. I mean, it's like not a nice place to live. Well, home part, into much higher quality permanent housing, which is also been done at Red O Park. On the, on, if you've ever gone, look the best fantastic award winning project and deserve it. So. I love the idea. We talked about mine values a little bit earlier and anything we can do. I'm not an economist, but I feel like most economists would probably say. You know, that's a problem because the market drives that and it's driven the land values really, really high.

[93:06] So how do we work around that? Where are the opportunities and that's a great conversation. So I don't know if you, joined before after, but I think at our next meeting, we're gonna talk about ways to reduce the cost of a unit, right? Because recently new construction has been about $700,000 a door and we had had a discussion about how a significant portion of that cost is land. So it may be that. Next meeting you should come prepared to talk about. What are some ways of reducing land costs? So it might be ground leases or land trusts or I, I don't know what other ideas you had, but I think that some of what you're talking about. Is what we, want to hear about at our next meeting.

[94:05] I did, hear that discussion and I'm glad you kind of circle back to that and, and gave me that invitation. That that's a that's a great challenge. I, I'm I'm willing to do that. I also kind of feel like, you know, for something, some of these bigger questions, like, maybe we should, you know, have a subcommittee or like, you know, have a thread that, lasts a few months that, requires some research and some experts to come in and, and discuss with us and, but yeah, I'm happy to, you know, spitball about land values next month too. I, you know. I'm not an economist either. I just play one on a podcast. Okay. I love the idea, subcommittees, and that's something that seemed to work pretty well when I came to, 2 and a half years ago.

[95:01] Okay. And experience a lot of appetite for. We can go back there. See if people would like to be in the future and type of specific issue. Like, land trust or whatever it might be. So, maybe that'll come up. Or if you'd like to volunteer to form a committee, don't. Perhaps someone would Listen, I love the download. It's great, but I mean those are like 6 different topics we can spend a year talking about each one of them. So, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I am. We're having a car light car free. I was telling, Phil, telling him about it recently when, back on, the link. There's no cars there. No, I mean, it's gonna be this cute little resorting place and it is. But I mean, they really figured out how they got around without cars. It's very cool.

[96:07] Okay. And you know what? They used a lot of horses. There were these horse cards everywhere. Some of them were taxi, some of the remote furniture. Or bringing food at the grocery store, a lot of bikes too, and it's walkable. So I thought it was, wow, you could actually design a neighbor around the same. Principals, maybe just around with a time lake or something, but, I was really amazed that, well, it was more than a gimmick. It was more than a gimmick. It really was like a way of life that they preserved carefully for a hundred 25 years. Thanks for letting me. Okay. You actually mentioned something before the meeting officially started. For, for, housing. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you can bring that up again a minute. So without getting into too much specifics, the Well, Caro, Guyler did so quickly, which was pretty impressive because tweaking the zoning code.

[97:08] Yes. It's typically from my experience something that takes forever to do and and he was working on it for a really long time and nobody knew about it or whatever. I don't know. Bottom line is got done. And the impacts of that are real. Their opportunities. Again, without getting specifics. Hipesuckle Project. 7, family homes. Under the zoning before Carlos tweaks. Now. You could probably 8 or 9 or maybe 10 attached. Town home style homes, little bit smaller. But more units on the same property. A better product, I think, for what we're trying to accomplish as a community. And, it's great. It's just really great. It's, it's, it's the tweaks that, that Carl suggests in the planning more adopted and city council adopted have a real impact. Real tangible solid impact, which is not always the case, but this is at least in this one specific tiny micro example, which is great.

[98:09] Were they really good? No. You can take that a step further. What do you call adjacent or whatever it was? And say that still half of the site is just green because you're limited how much you can build there and you could probably build twice as much. If it was tweaked more, which then seways in what we talked about earlier, phase 2 of maybe Carl Guiler zoning, tweak space 2. Because you can still do so much more on this particular parcel. But at least it's more than what it was before, so that's part of progress. That's good. Really good. Go call and planning board and council and everybody for proving. Thank you. That's really great to have that good news. Thank you for that. And I will say that don't need for a affordable housing is one of those ones where like Lauren Folkert suggested 5 or 6 specific tweaks that council said well that's probably too much for this update but let's put it in phase 2.

[99:03] Okay. And I'm sure those are in a bucket somewhere if, planning or if, zoom advisory board want to look at Lauren specific suggestions and boost them up or say yes, this should be a prayer. Pretty like put this in your next work plan. That could be something that you might want to look at. The rent thing and it's not overburdening neighborhoods and it's not changing the dynamics or culture of wherever it's just common sense when you look at it. Great example of phase 2 like how do we build on that moving forward? You can split lives all day, kinda known. Bye. It's not, it's chipping away, but not solving the affordability problem because you know, they still sell for 2 and 3 million dollars, but better than 3 and 40000000, right. You know, get the missing, by deed restricting, but there's not happening in the free market. But I think the other part is it also. Can really have, you know, zone changes like that can have a really profound effect and just the whole mindset and that goes more to.

[100:08] Yes, some of the things that Philip was alluded to in terms of thinking broader thinking bigger and and and some of these Policy changes that you make can start to change. Yes. The base presumptions. That you have there's a lot of base presumptions and land use, you know, it's like, okay, density is bad, etc, etc, right? You know, that just kind of. You know just Get a foothold in there and then and then just stay that way regardless if they make sense or not you know another one is roads the width of roads parking a lot of the things that we've talked about a lot of those things even, forward thinking jurisdictions. Really have a hard time letting go of I mean parking is a great one. I can tell you I've had that so many times and I thought it was really helpful the presentation that we had, you know, months ago.

[101:01] I'm parking. But when you when the rubber hits the road, yeah, I'm dealing with so many different jurisdictions right now. And it's incredible how many people, you know, they can have general conversations about that, but then when you still come down to it, it's like, well, 2 spaces per bedroom and you know, but that's the kind of thing. And I think the, zoning for affordable housing and everything that Terry was alluded to is a great example of that where once he starts changing the mindset then There is a. You know, significant amount of possibilities of where you can go from there because it's changing some of these base presumptions like You know, the best thing to do is to have one single family home on there have, you know, an abundance of yard area, etc, etc, right? Once you start changing those things, then you could get there. So I think I think what Terry was bringing up. Does go to some of the notions that Philip had of thinking in more grand terms, which, which, you know, I think at least maybe.

[102:02] Picking an issue or 2 a year, Philip would be a great way to at least start with that, right? You know, we can. Our bandwidth kind of limited and we have a lot of things that are that are kind of nuts and bolts here and now and that are also very important but at least, you know, doing something in that in that direction as well can be really helpful because that's where you really start to see profound changes and you know maybe allowing more density and allowing attached units isn't gonna make sure that those units are going to be less expensive, but it's it's going to start a progression where you get towards more of a contemplation of those things. So, I was very encouraged and, and, to hear that, you know, The pragmatic effect is there as well already. I was very encouraged to see a lot of the things that were done this year, you know, by the city. And, you know, I think it's a good start and something that can really, you know, have a phase 2 that can have your more substance.

[103:07] Not to myself. Cool. Anything. Else and the update. Department. Okay, ask whether I had any more updates. Okay. Oh no, that was, that was my idea. Less expensive. That's a good, yeah. Really? Let's see. Any other matters from staff? Are you ready for the debrief meeting or is anyone else? In general, I'd like to say. Okay, Got a good meeting. We had no public participation. We talked about the council letter.

[104:10] Get into the detail tonight in our December meeting. We agreed to reschedule the November meeting, to December thirteenth. We had updates on the airport and Pase 2 and we had a good discussion about. The best way to get. To ensure diversity and robust numbers of applicants to city boards, especially on board have and included that having a simplified list of questions is a good way to go. We had some general thoughts about. I can still move forward on in the future. Maybe make a recommendations to probably change changes that have already been made. That's kind of a phase 2 since we can improve. Areas like occupancy and timing for affordable housing also something that we can get into in more detail in future meetings.

[105:07] Had a full roster of, members attending tonight, which I'm very pleased to see. And. Calendar check we've already done that we're going to meet again on December thirteenth but we're also gonna discuss a time to have a social gathering to celebrate the holidays. Good work. So one thing that we decided not to change the questions on our application. I think we reached consensus. Even though it's all about it. So, November meeting instead December thirteenth, December thirteenth. No December meetings. Thank you. Hey, can I ask a clarifying question about the calendar?

[106:01] And I'm sure. I noticed that. And I think January there's 5 Wednesdays. Is it usually the fourth Wednesday or the last Wednesday? I don't remember. 4. Okay. I want, I'm gonna pencil in the dates for. Next year. Well, you want to typically send the meeting invite to everybody with the location and everything. So she'll send you an update for everybody with the location and everything. So she'll send you an update for everybody with the location and everything. So she'll send you an update for December 13. Hopefully we'll get this room. I'll be here. Where ask for a motion to adjourn to it's anything at all they would like to add. Question to adjourn. So moved. Second. I. Hi. And then 40 is not just, if you, so happy or the, holiday gathering, do it on the thirteenth.

[107:07] That sounds great to me. And right after the meeting. Yeah, good call. We do it before the meeting. It'd be a great meeting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, everybody. Thanks, everyone. Right. Bye