August 25, 2022 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:06] I think we're alive. I see some guests who will be given the opportunity to speak. Ah! Shortly I I am Michael Ajay, the chair of the Boulder Housing Advisory Board, and we will stop a roll call to uh a member of Terry Pamos. Yes, here. Ah, Phillip program here. Ah, Juliette Ramsey here Great that, do you at all? I think she is absent as she, Danny Theodoro i'm present, so I believe we have a quarter of four out of the techn, many seven members. We have six members now the

[1:02] um. So welcome members of the public who've Ah joined us. I'm going to turn it over to our staff liaison and Jason that he's going to review the rules of public participation and use of the chat box. There we go, Hey, everybody, welcome. I just have a couple rules to go over with public participation. So the first slide there we go. We are very pleased to have you join us? Um. We have been really trying to navigate a difficult time and strike a balance between meaningful transparent engagement and online security. So we have these rules, so it's. The meeting has been called to conduct business of the city. Any activities that disrupt just delay or upgrade it.

[2:06] Fear of our prohibitive time for speaking and asking questions are limited. No person shall speak except when recognized by the person presiding, which is Michael. I'm sorry about that, um, and no speak for no longer than the time allotted each person. We requested you register to speak at the beginning of the meeting, and using your real name to change it if you're using some pseudonym and no video. I'm: sorry. Thank you, Jerry, for turning yourself as permitted in persons. Michael will enforce these rules. I'll help a little bit, and the chat function is currently enabled. It's really just to talk about tech issues, so it's to communicate with Tiffany and myself

[3:02] should not be used for communicating with the board and sharing the spring. I'm. Not sure what just happened then. Sharing the screen is only permitted during this staff during this meeting. So that's it with the rules, Michael, You can feel free to go through the agenda great, I believe. Vice chair. Danny Teradoro has joined us. Danny, can you confirm that? Hey, Danny? Welcome, Hi! I understand. You didn't have the greatest earlier part of the month, and we're really happy to see you here. Yeah, I shouldn't be here. So i'm very happy to be here or be anywhere, because we're wishing you good health and safety, and that We now have five out of our six members present,

[4:03] just getting very early in the agenda. I'm going to review the agenda for our guests who have called in. So we've already been through. Item, one called Water and roll call number two is a gender review. That's what we're doing. Well, we'll be approving the meeting. Since I have three public participation, I think we have five or six people waiting to speak in their three minutes and open comment. Um, Matt, That's four matters from the board is five. I hope we'll be voting on a letter to Council urging them to begin action on. Ah! The first spaces of um undertaking housing development. Ah! Doing a full city regulatory side. Um for a tea That tastes, too, and the planning reserve. We'll have some discussion about that, too. We have a letter that's in the packet that I wanted to review. Ah, It' be either that Number five will be a discussion of any use. There's certainly a lot of good buzz about what's happening with eighty Use item six As matters from the staff. Jay will fill us in on anything new. We'll have a debrief and calendar check, and then adjourn.

[5:10] Um. So any questions from our board members and I also like to note that Tom Durstal or ex-fishio member from city council is present. Okay, Can I get a motion to approve the minutes of the June twenty second two thousand and twenty two minutes, so maybe Danny has motions all in favor. I all right. We got five eyes there. We carry a second. Did we get a second? Yup, Terry: Okay, Okay, I didn't see hands, but I think we got five eyes. Yes,

[6:00] I Yes, okay. Thank you. Uh minutes are approved. Um: public participation. This is the most people we've had to participate. And how do we do this? Do we? Alphabetically? This is a good problem to have. It is an excellent problem to have. So typically we ask them to raise their hands, using the raise hands function in with zoom. But Megan has already done that. So it's. It's it's making. There we go, and just go as they appear on your screen. Michael. Excellent! We're going to start with making calls, the and and he is going to take three minutes, so tell us what's going on, I think. Thank you, Megan. Take it away. Hello! Hello, everybody! I see a lot of friends here, not just those of you who are on the Housing Advisory Board, but also some people in the audience. And as I've been working around the community with other people on housing issues, and and also the some of the process issues surrounding, planning and the city of Boulder. We've come to realize that the Housing Advisory Board is an important resource that

[7:15] a lot of us would like to receive more ideas from, and work with you more on some of the housing issues that we have, and particularly to address the critical housing crisis in the City of Boulder. Ideas like the ones that are expressed in the letter to Council tonight, including the the planning reserve and the extent to which housing may be something that where we could really make significant progress on our middle income housing strategy by using a portion of the planning reserve. This requires really studied attention, because there are, there are a number of stages that have to be accomplished in order actually to make a map change in twenty twenty five

[8:07] reactions in conjunction with the major update to the comprehensive plan. But we really approach this with respect for staff and for your Board planning Board Council, because we understand that staffing is a significant issue with the City of Boulder. So we've got to work together. We can't. We have to share the burden for finding solutions? The last time I met with the director of planning early this summer there were eleven vacant positions, and i'm not sure that any of those have been filled yet. What we can rely on the Housing Advisory board is to help inject ideas of follow up on ideas that relate to housing in the community, and we really would welcome your your views about housing and your ideas for planning that involve short-term projects, medium-term projects, and long-term projects. I actually would look at the

[9:09] possibility of building significant housing in the planning reserve is a short-term project, because a baseline study has to be done in order to see if it's feasible for the city to provide services within the planning reserve, and then, of course, other steps have to follow. But unless this gets the studied attention of the Housing Advisory Board, the Planning Board and the City Council are now in two thousand and twenty-two, and move the baseline study away, which right now is in the pending category meaning that staff is not able to work on it because of shortages. But unless we focus on that and talk about the importance of it, we just can't. It can't get it done, and then can't be ready for the major update to the complex in twenty, twenty, five. So I want to thank you for taking my my call, my participation tonight. I look forward to listening further to your meeting

[10:08] and thank you, Mac, and those are great observations. I've been giving a lot of thought myself on how the Housing Advisory Board can become more active and effective. I've been reaching out to our members one by one, to have that time to get to everybody yet, but I think we've got some good ideas. This is a great time to be, I guess, bumping up our influence as the Council moves towards taking action on some of these issues. So we have Jan Burton. Welcome, Jan. Good evening, Michael. Can you hear me this weekend? Okay, Good and good evening, Jay and members of the Housing Advisory Board. Um, First of all, thank you for your service, I know, participating on a board or on council. It's a It's a big job, and I, as a community member, very much appreciate the time you put in to stunning these issues and taking them up and meeting

[11:03] um. I would like to add to Michael's just a current thought there that I would love to see the Housing Advisory Board become um really proactive. We have a council that is committed to building houses and doing zoning reform, and they need more help and support behind them. So I would really love to see you guys be leaders in that area, and I would advise you to be practical. Choose things that can really make a difference in the housing and this community. Um. One thing I think, in addition to the memo that you have, which is great. Ah, i'd really love for you guys to look at a to use, we still have the most restrictive adu ordinance in the country. We there are a number of community members who are working on making some suggestions that we would love to work with you on that. If you guys are open to that.

[12:00] Um, I also want to bring up one more thing that maybe no one else will bring up, and that is, we are really at a crisis in affordable housing for artists and musicians, and we've lost many of our creative people in this community, because they can't afford to live here. And of course that's not a story just for artists, but creativity and the creative culture has been a ah, so just a standing point for Boulder. So it is important to not lose that completely. We actually met today with Maria and the Mayor, and from I'm. On the board of Korea, and we brought up a meeting that we had had with an organization called to Art Space, that is building housing all over Colorado for the creative space, and it includes not just housing, but also a commercial space for artists that could be studio space things like that. So as you continue to think about your ideas around affordable housing, family housing, middle income, housing, I would love for you to also.

[13:06] Ah, keep in mind our creative community, and that we would love to have them continue to be, or or become again, part of our community again. Thank you so much for allowing me to speak, and thanks for your service. Thank you, Jan, and thank you for your service on city Council and working the community full disclosure. I am working on a project to create folder, but it's not housing, and Jan mentioned um art space. They built a couple of projects in Colorado, and if you're in either Trinidad or a London, you can go look at them and get an idea of what they're all about. I believe they incorporate studio space as well a place to live. So thank you for introducing that issue to the broader discussion, and I think we'll go to Jonathan singer. All right. Good evening Board Members I'm. Jonathan Singer and I'm. The senior director of policy of programs for the Boulder Chamber, and I'm, speaking on behalf of the Chamber today, but

[14:08] also wanted to share with you a personal story. Actually, those of you. Some of you may know that I was the House district representative for Longmont for eight and a half years, and you know I used to joke that lawmakers at the State capital make about as much as a first year, Teacher, it's just we get eight months off a year instead of four months off a year. But those of you who know teachers and lawmakers. No one actually gets in real time. Off back in two thousand and sixteen in two thousand and seventeen. The apartment I was living in got sold to another company, and they decided to give me the special introductory rate. Since I've been there for six years of paying double what I was already paying, you can imagine on a thirty or forty thousand dollars salary that wasn't possible, and I almost lost my seat in the State House because I couldn't find an affordable place to live in Longmont. Just imagine what it's like in Boulder.

[15:05] The same is true for our teachers and our public servants. And now our scientists and our engineers. And so, with that being said, Um, I hope the Housing Advisory Board understands that the Boulder chamber is at the ready to help out when it comes to policies, whether it's eighty us making sure that we maximize multi-family units to even large-scale infill redevelopments, all of these things need to be tools in our toolbox and our at our table and the business community um understands. And here's this: and what I always tell people about development is development's gonna come. The question is whether or not we control our own destiny or it just happens to us, and I would hate for what happened to me to happen to anybody else. I was lucky in the sense that my brother and sister-in-law couldn't find a place to live in Boulder moved to Longmont, and now we live in their basement with me, my two kids and one bathroom. That's a great project and compromise. But back to the issue at hand. I just want everyone here to understand that we are ready to work with you.

[16:18] Um! We want you to be able to use the tools that are in our in our toolbox for you as well, and we look forward to the conversation tonight and stand at the ready to be of any assistance. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. Those are great comments. I love the personal story, you know. I was talking about to have with one of our board members last week, and this is that we um. We can't really have a working meeting unless it's a public meeting, so it's it's not that easy for us to tease out ideas in detail except during these meetings. Um. So we really welcome input from organizations around Roller with their ideas about how to improve the housing situation, or because we don't always have the ability to do that kind of light work to that end.

[17:06] I've I've heard that the housing network is developing some ideas about eighty years, and changes to the regulations governing the creation of eighty years and more. We'd love to be hearing about that, as those ideas of all. But possibly we could consider some of those for recommendations to. Uh we're on to uh Jerry shavings, Jerry, are you? I think you're muted, Jerry. Here we go. Can you hear me now? Yeah, we are. Well, thank you so much for having us participate with you tonight. I'm honored to really listen to all the great ideas so far, and i'll look forward to learning more from you as the year moves on. I wanted to tell you that your role is really important to all of us.

[18:03] You guys just help with city governance, for sure. But you imagine the future with optimism, and we all need your optimism. We need your hopes. We need your dreams, and I and I know you all have that because you are on the board. So I want you to be provocative, proactive, inspiring, and I want you to be, as others have said, a really creative advocate for urban housing. There's so many things that you can do for us right now, as we are emerging from a crisis mode. Ah, help educate us! What amazing opportunities there are not just in one site. But in all the places in Boulder we have many opportunities here, and we want to really address the long view. We're setting up a way for the future. And you guys can do great. I want you to share presidents and examples from throughout the world. You've all traveled. You've seen amazing projects. There's so much being done elsewhere. We want to do that. Here we have a creative community who wants a creative city.

[19:09] We want you to weigh in more aggressively on the multiple benefits of redevelopment. You talk about. Housing and housing is really important, but it does not sit alone. It sits in a neighborhood. It sits in an area of the city. It sits within a zone and so forth. But redevelopment is really really important to push this world forward, and so I hope you get into the idea of redevelopment, of shopping centers, strip malls, parking lots, and so forth. All the isores that we're all aware of, and also the places that are not ecologically safe. They're not socially viable, and so forth, as other visitors have mentioned. We want you to be a partner with other boards There's Ah! The planning board is absolutely important. You should really be active with the planning board even more than what you do, and try to have fun with when you do that and pay attention to that.

[20:01] Ah! Provide provocative content for our media. Our media is suffering. They need ah news to get out there. I hardly know what you do, because the media is limited nowadays. Tell them as much as you can, and actively tell city Council to take action on current housing projects with all. I want you to go beyond the outdated, dry, zoning and regulatory disc. Tell the city about the wonderful possibilities of developing housing and boulder that enables us to look forward with positivity about new public spaces, safer and cleaner ways to move around the city to healthier and beautiful natural ecology, and a more diverse social fabric reflecting our changing needs in boulder. Thank you. Thank you so much for what you do. Thank you for those comments, Jerry. I really appreciate your bring of the redevelopment possibilities. A lot of people talk about older being built out, but if you look at large parts of the city. They're actually sort of underdeveloped with small buildings in the middle of March,

[21:08] parking lots, and often in areas that Aren't performing especially well like an outer place, so this could be future areas of opportunity. Others have talked about that, and certainly in the East Arapaho community, a sub area plan, but that's one of those things that had could be cramming on to and talking out and teasing out some new ideas. So thank you. I'm Kathleen Mccordick. Hi, there! Um! Thank you for um allowing me to speak tonight. Um uh, I uh! As a way of disclosure, I will give you some of my affiliations. Uh I'm. Also an editor for the folding, bolder housing network which is founded by Megan cows, which advocates for affordable housing. I'm. A better bald or a board member, and I'm. Also a member of the Boulder Arts Commission, whereas Jan Burton mentioned I have.

[22:01] I've talked over the last six years with so many artists who are having trouble affording to to live in Boulder, or who have left owner. I'm. Also a writer and editor, and I recently helped the West Denver Renaissance collaborative, write a report on their eighty pilot program, which is building Fifty-eight to use for low and middle income households in nine West Denver neighborhoods over the next couple of years. A link to this report is in the current order housing that we use, and as a final disclosure my husband is Michael achase your chair. So I just went to mention that for those who didn't know that. Um. I appeared before the Housing Advisory committee advocating for a dus at one of your earliest meetings years ago, and in one thousand nine hundred and seventeen. Sorry not in that one thousand nine hundred and seventeen, two thousand and seventeen. Michael and I built an adu in a one thousand nine hundred and seventys addition at the back of our home in Newland. We somehow are able to jump through all the hoops to build an adu before the rules rules were revised. A year or so later we've had a series of young professionals and graduate students living in this four hundred and twenty foot space which has access to a patio in our backyard. Our tenants have included a middle school math teacher, the Ceo administrator

[23:23] policy expert for a conservation organization and a nanny for local families, who was also an emt and a nursing student. Although our adu is not officially classified as affordable, We have limited the rent to an affordable rate, and our tenants have all said they really appreciated that they are paying less than market rate for a nice studio apartment in a quiet neighborhood close to transit and services for my husband and me. This Adu has provided extra income to help us offset rising taxes and maintenance costs, and has helped make it more affordable for us to continue to live in motor as we ease toward retirement.

[24:05] Thank you for addressing A to use as a as a wonderful opportunity for more affordable housing in boulder, with not very great impact to neighborhoods. I have to say we have several around us, and we welcome um. I hope that your recommendations to city Council will include some key revisions that will encourage many more people to build them, such as eliminating the following saturation: limits: parking requirements: bot size, minimums, eighty size limits permitting fees for a portable way to use, and other measures that could potentially produce many more affordable places for people to live in a boulder. Again, thank you for all your efforts, we really appreciate it. Thank you, Kathleen. And Ah Macon, from speaking for the boulder housing at work. I I see a couple of other unfamiliar names, and they probably they are members of the public who would like to comment. But I don't see hands raised. So here's your opportunity.

[25:07] If anyone else would like to speak during the public comment period, or let me know if I loved anyone off. Okay, thank you. A question for maybe, Kathleen, do you have any idea when the hard recommendations I need to use will be available from the open housing network? I'm sorry. What was the question again, Michael, you know, when that housing never will be making its recommendations for ad reform, I, you know, maybe make it where Jan could better answer that if if they're still on. But it'll be some time in the very near future. Uh, because we know that Council will be addressing it very soon. So um! This is a group of folks from different walks of life in different organizations in Boulder, who all have great hopes for a to use as a means for more affordable housing and motor, so i'd say, stay tuned.

[26:07] I am here. My, I don't know if you wish. This is Megan, and I'm here, too, Michael, I would it! I would turn the question around and ask you, When do you want it? We are working very hard on this kind of a combination of better boulder and the housing advisory network. At least I am somewhat embarrassed that I have not had my eyes on what you guys have been doing. And so when what kind of deadline would you like to give us that we can work for? Well, we'd love to see something before our next meeting. Our beings are always the last Wednesday of the month, and to date we've discussed eighty years. We've we've ah received informational ah presentations on any use from city officials we haven't really devised. We actually did forward a recommendation of council about mobile avenues. So a a tiny Homers on wheels That was

[27:09] um when the Jacqueline was on the board, but as far as the rank and file any issue, we Haven't really moved toward action. We want to get on that because I think Council is going to be taking that up pretty soon. I am going to be meeting with Aaron Brockett next week and asking him about what he thinks the timeline is for some of their key housing issues, and I think that will help inform our own priorities. But I would say, if we could get before the next meeting, and recommendations that would be just fantastic Any other comments on the board on that request. Um, I just I don't um reiterate the same points. It'd be great to have that before the next meeting, and it'd be really good to have a timeline, as when these things are going uh with council, Michael, so that'll give us a good idea of uh,

[28:02] You know what our timeframe is to move forward. So um! And and I really appreciate a lot of the comments here, particularly the whole notion of um housing, as it relates to people in the arts being music, be it art. I think it's a really big that that a lot of times is overlooked, because there's a very particular um challenge that you face as an artist, but it really does make our community. And so I was glad to hear about that as well. Thank you, Danny Philip. You got your hand up. Yeah, I was just gonna just sort of drive home the point you made just a minute ago about thinking carefully about and anticipating what the the city Council's work plan looks like what their what their calendar is their schedule. So that uh sorry uh so that, um, you know, if if they need advice from us, or recommendations, or just support that we can. We can anticipate that and be ready. That seems like a a good way to be

[29:12] effective with, you know, helping helping the city Council have another comment that's not directly related. But I I love all the comments about the you know, being provocative and educating, and you know, you know, being being being thought leaders, and I. The one thing that I was thinking about that is of concern to me is, you know, in our training. We were told that if you are speaking as a have member, or you know, because you're a have member, you have to be careful when you're making statements that whether or not you're representing have or not. And so for me, it seems very easy for me as Philip, to to go out and educate and say whatever I, you know, say, say the things that i'm excited about sort of that way.

[30:15] But then, when it comes to Philip as a have representative. I feel like I can't throw caution to the wind nearly nearly as much. Well, I thank you, Philip. I think that's why its own purpose to reach consensus on some of these issues, and speak with one voice, or at least for the majority voice as best we can. And maybe we can be doing more of that. I'm starting tonight. Great? Ah, you know he has too many provocative. Ah! Comments on it. We don't have a super pact agenda. I just wonder if other Board members have more comments on some of these great ideas that came in through the a public comment session and what we might do with them.

[31:00] Michael: Yeah, Terry, I want to thank everybody who spoke from the public. We Haven't had that type of participation, and I think it's great, and I want to thank everybody for making the time hearing all that kind of kind of gave me a boost of energy. You know it kind of gave me a second wind here, and I think all those comments are completely on point, and I think we need to, towards all of those items in any way that we can. So I just wanted to thank everybody who came and said what they said, and I agree with ninety five percent of it. Thanks, Terry. And like tonight I'm: sorry. Yeah, or I was at Danny. So I The The one thing I was going to make to the other point that I want to make before was that um. With all these comments, and coming from different perspectives and different backgrounds today. Um, everything kind of kind of less around a to use, as you know, kind of the low line through something we can really address right now as a way to um really get going with some of these recommendations and stuff. So uh, really looking forward to having that conversation. My, hopefully, my address is a lot of the

[32:16] um suggestions and concerns that we're here today, because I think that you know the recommendations that we make on the abus can have a lot of help moving forward in terms of just hitting that one particular item. And then, as we move forward to other issues so, and for our guests, i'll point out that we had a retreat. I think it was last year, and we did decide to focus on the missing middle of housing, I think, really related to that um and that sort of tied up in our recommendation that we'll be considering tonight. Um, you know, especially for the planning reserve that's where missing middle housing could potentially be built, and I hope we'll see some progress on that soon. Um other comments from the board,

[33:04] Michael, can I just give a quick update on the schedule for you to use, and the progress that we need, since we have such a an active audience which is fantastic. So they sort of the study session with council. It was just a change of the day, so it's October the thirteenth. It'll be a study session that talks about edus. We'll talk about occupancy, reform, and how to come. I forget the third one to something about smaller, more. It'll be less expensive. How is he. Excuse me, Um, but I think the main show is going to be a to use because we made the most progress. Um! So luckily we have Lisa Hood in planning and development services. Who has been project manager. She's done a fantastic job. She's met with the Project specialist. She's met with the rental housing folks to get the sense from internally. What issues are. Um! How we can improve processes and what they see as barriers to people creating ideas in the city.

[34:11] Um, Holly Anderson in our department just sent out our survey. So some of you hopefully have gotten that survey. So it's went to everybody who's applied for a permit and asking them, Why do they create Debu? Try to get some interesting information? And then Kirk Mbeck just emailed me just before the meeting, asking to me to share the So we're definitely open to that. So keep in mind. We're still in the beginning of process is identifying. What are the issues. What are the barriers? We go to Council and propose what we think are the right sort of package, and this is the process that we would propose. We follow

[35:03] um, and then they'll tell us whether or not they agree or not. So definitely like I said, we're in the beginning, so please send your ideas on a way. You anything also careful. I'd love to meet with you and Kurt when you sit down with him. Jake. Okay, Um. We had perhaps a non-technical but helpful a comment in the chat box that councils Ah, possibly looking at and um upgrading the ad in ordinance by march does that sound right to you, J. Though again it'll get refined after that study session right? Well, I think we have Not that I want to, Terry, but I think we have a little more time than we may have thought we had. It's really important issue.

[36:01] Great um! Other comments for move on the agenda. I don't see any raised hands. I know one last-minute thing since Meon had mentioned short term and medium term and long term goals. I just want to reiterate one of my personal long term things that I would love to have some, you know. Just mention it every now and then. I want to live in a in a pedestrian district where I live in compact housing, where I don't compete with cars, I can walk and bike to the things that I need, and I would love to to for have to have as one of its roles. You know. There there was a lot of talk about vision for for creative housing. I'd love to have as one of our threads of conversation,

[37:06] imagining pedestrian districts in walkable neighborhoods and compact living where we share walls in green space and cars. So just thought i'd i'd say that very common folk to Can you think of anything that's trending in that direction like a local example, you cut in and out as you were asking that question, they might go to the place, however small. That. Um. Okay. Sorry about that. Oh,

[38:00] uh, I'm deal with my network at this moment. So give me a certain All right, Michael. You can still hear me and try turning off your camera. Okay, that should be better my Wi-fi somehow switched to the backup, which is weaker, and this should be the strong network. Can Everybody hear me. Well, good. Thank you. Thank you for your patience. So yeah, I'm sorry. My question for Philip was: Can you think about a local example in Boulder? That is at least trending in that direction, of being more putting the person and not the car at first. Well, I I I've often said that there's there's few examples in boulder where increased density does not correspond to more cars, and I would love to see a place in Denver. Ah, sorry, Boulder.

[39:08] Not sure why I said that. Um, i'd love to see a place in boulder where increased density actually corresponded to fewer cars, and there was more, you know, pedestrian right of way. And because I think I think you know, when you go to Europe, or you go to various resorts, and you see these walkable places that we love to spend time, and those don't really exist in Boulder too much, and I mean we can't all live on Pearl Street, and very few of us do, I assume. But we could. We could have a lot of. We could have pedestrian districts all over the all over the city that were urban Cores That, you know, were had some gravitational pull on daily life,

[40:03] hey? Thank you. Um. Any of the comments before we move down the agenda. Okay, Um. Item five matters for the board. Um! We've had a letter out for uh a few months now. I'm drafted. I revised it with comments from the from the board. Every we received our June twenty second meeting, and I'm. Sending out the folks for review. I think our guests have also taken a look at it, but this is for the board to comment on one. I'm. Hoping we can adopt this, and I'd like to have more discussion about what we might do next. But uh, let's let's have a discussion about this, and see if you have any comments or amendments. We're losing you again. Michael.

[41:00] Yeah, maybe turn off your camera again. But I can provide a little bit of context. What while we get Michael back. So all right, i'm going to mute him. I can't even do that, anyway. A little bit of context on Tiva phase two as well as planning reserve. So just this week it was scheduled for September twenty second before Council to get an update. So I think this is quite time for him. So basically, if you won't, be meeting, That's it, Michael, you back. He had a question, jay, about what you just said, What a September The twentieth, whatever it was, Council is going to do an update on Tv or on the planning reser of both the

[42:02] it can be both. It's a study fishing. It's a staff's opportunity to basically report to council progress that they've made to make and what the process will be moving forward, based on staff of the mobility. So I have no idea what they're going to say. But it it's time. Okay, it's good to know. So September the twenty second, and I've covered thirteen too big dates for us to be following, and then October twenty, seventh, is a middle income housing, and or well, uh, Bill, if you have another comment, I'm. Just curious is for a meeting like that. Do they have public comment. And is it knock? Study? Sessions are designed as a less formal venue for staff to get feedback from council,

[43:05] But you can still email them, and you know, contact prior to the meeting, those will be likely in-person meetings or hybrid jade, you know. So I was going to give you an update on that later. Yeah, okay, is moving back to in person. But it's not clear to me exactly. When there'll be public comment will be in person. I think the initial is, Offerings are going to be all great, and you don't have an update on our meetings as well. Okay, J: mechanically, provided we all agree on this letter going into the study session is that is that a good strategy? Seems to me that it is

[44:00] to the Us. I don't know great Well, I don't want to forest all conversation about this, but we have had a couple of months, and chewed on it pretty well that I would certainly entertain emotion to adopt. So moved we have a second what I'm doing, i'm. Moving to submit this letter to Council. Right? Approve this, and then, as a letter to Council. Yes, as edited as as modified. This is the July the sixth version that is contained in That's correct. Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Second, I second all in favor. Why, my godly past, and I think, oh, my God, this is great, Michael! I just I just. I just want to talk about it for one more time.

[45:07] The missing middle is is really hard. The reason it's lagging is because it's the hardest thing to accomplish. You know what I mean. Given our geographic parameters and our zoning, and all the things that we have to deal with in this town by way of building things. This is the hardest thing to do, which is why it's lagged probably over the last twenty, twenty, five years, compared to other forms of affordable housing. And so you know it's something that I think it's something that we need the most, because this is not that the existing affordable housing that we built, or bought, or whatever doesn't serve a purpose because it absolutely does, but it serves a different purpose than the missing middle. But it serves, you know they're smaller units. They're more multifamily, you know. Type stuff, stacked apartment-style housing for the most part not all of it. The most and and the the missing middle. And to me, anyway, is more town home style, single family-style, family-style housing little bit larger units, maybe a garage or a carport,

[46:16] at least a little bit of a back paddy or a backyard for fur to to kick a ball and and have a dog run outside. Fetch a ball, whatever the case may be, and that's type of product is very hard to do in within the parameters of our city, which is hard to do, at least on any major scale. So I think This is obviously very important, just like everybody else does that I've talked to, and I think we need to submit this letter, and hopefully, it's It's taken seriously and acted on it. Thank you, Terry. I'm gonna turn my video off for a second, because i'm getting an unstable Internet i'm glad that we pass that, and I think the timing is good.

[47:04] I just want to plant the seed of further thought on what we can do in this. And again I've been talking to board members, one on one, and one idea that surfaced was Well, maybe it's one thing to ah to say, Hey, counsel, get the process started on playing reserve, and it's another thing to offer a vision. Um, you know, Philip, certainly, and a truly visionary idea he put forward just now I I personally would welcome the opportunity to brainstorm on and not just do it to create the housing. But what is it, you know? A holiday started with a vision It was pretty well achieved. Um, you know, just to say, go build it as one thing, but to say, here's some ideas, and how to do it. I think it could be ah an effective role for him. Um, and probably something for more discussion. And a later day I guess i'd love to hear people be on board with that kind of discussion, and if you think It' be productive

[48:06] definitely, Yes, I I would love to share thoughts and ideas on on, on planning and density and product, type and parking, and all of those types of things I would love to weigh in on that. I'd love to have that discussion, too, I mean I really think it's um Ah, the timing's right. Ah, and and there's a lot that we can. It's very dense. But there's a lot that we can really start. One nice thing, Michael and I know that you and I touched on this that we can pull from is the fact that in the last twenty twenty-five years Boulder has done some larger-scale product at projects be at Dakota Ridge, v. It holiday v. It Northfield Commons. Ah, you know, be in any of those types of things where there are a large acreage, not just in Phil, not just a city walk or half a city block, or whatever the case, maybe, and we can. We can

[49:06] whole from all those projects. We can take the best of those projects, because now you can actually go out and walk around. Stand there and park there, or ride your bike there. You can live there. You can see it in real life, and and we can take those ideas the best of those ideas and integrate them into the next project. You know we take the best of what's been done leave the worst. It's not rocket science, but sometimes it's it's over complicated um, and I think we can do that, and we know we're not just limited to those three or four projects, you know. We can look around to projects in Boulder County That, I think, have done a great job of what Philip was talking about, you know Prospect and Longmont, and on and on the list as long. But but I would love to weigh in. I would love to weigh in on specifics. Not just let's go through the missing metal and let's go. Figure out what the missing mills and build it. I think we want to get into the weeds on this and and get down to you know how many parking spaces and where they are, and I mean a structure? Are they underground? Are they on the surface or on the street?

[50:06] You know What type of house is it? Three stores or four stories? Is it stacked Flats? Where are they? I'd love to get into that level of detail that's great. Um, And i'm sorry my Internet connection is really fucking right, even though it's showing up as strong in my task. Bar. Uh, I might try calling back out of my phone if anybody could give me a second. Here, Phillip, are you? Are you on while we're waiting for Michael?

[51:01] Okay, I hope that's better. Hold on a moment. There we go. Hi! Can you folks hear me. Yes, sir, great, See if they can get the video up. Um, My follow-up to that would be what's the best way to start teasing out some of these ideas, and we can talk about it for a long time, and really generate some great ideas. It looks at the minimum, Make it an agenda item for the next meeting that takes up most of the meeting, or maybe not the next meeting, but meeting soon or where we can do a retreat,

[52:09] I would say, to give it some shape. We um, and maybe see it. Maybe this is something taking help with, or whatever, but you know, and we can do ourselves and do some homework before before we go to it, but have some models with things that work and don't work from our own experiences or our own perspectives, something that we can really start chewing on and going back and forth on. So you know, I mean especially while we're still in the in the zoom universe or treat in the meeting, are pretty similar in terms of of their structure and and everything. So either one works. But I definitely think something We we really just start brainstorming like targets. Saying is really the best way to go about it, because there's so many different concepts here, and and you know, like you said, get deep into the weeds and and really chew on it One of the things that I throw out there is. We heard some people talk about this in the past, and it's absolutely an issue, particularly when you're dealing with

[53:02] uh missing middle type. Housing is, you know, association, responsibilities and association dues that tie into that as well. So that's another thing that just flag is, you know, something depending on the type of product that you put together. Um, you know what the uh common elements are, and what the association responsibilities and their might costs are is another big thing to just kind of wrestle with a little as we go forward. Um, thanks, Danny. Um, i'm sorry I don't know why my video is off. I I can't see a button to turn it back on. But um, despite technical difficulties, I think we have a good, I I think if we were to go back live next month that to do some homework and have a retreat on the stop it would be really really valuable, and I can't produce some some fantastic ideas. I don't know, Michael, how much notice we need. I'm sorry i'm talking so much. This just gets me excited. I don't know. But you

[54:01] you know, even going and physically, as a group, I would ride Bikes Walk when I can't walk, but drive to some of these developments that have happened that we're talking about here, and actually standing there as a group and having Jay or others who know them really well, point out, you know what's good, what's been really successful, the different things, and actually physically see them um, and walk around them. I think that could be really helpful for a lot of for our our group to to be on the same page. So when we're talking about stacked flats versus town homes versus attached units, or whatever it is, you know we can point to it and look at it. Um, I don't know just an idea that's a great idea that it's actually something that we thought about the doing this summer, and it hasn't happened, but it could with. I think it's a great that we're actually waiting until the cooler weather as I had, and i'm also hoping that my Achilles you see at the heels, and I can get back the

[55:05] I think it's a great idea. And hopefully you know that that helps debate some of the concerns, you know, whatever public health concerns, because it's outside an open air rather than in a confined space. But I think it's absolutely imperative that sewing projects that I work on, where you know a site visits work as a way to go. So I think you know, staring, standing, and staring at what it is that we're talking about is always incredibly helpful, so I absolutely support that myself. But most of it is all within minutes of each other. I mean, if you take Northfield Commons Iris Hollow Holiday, Dakota Ridge all those are

[56:00] I was in. Well, I had. I had uh nearly, or maybe I did volunteer to organize a bike tour, and I sort of dropped the ball on that. I um. When this particular thread started. I thought you were saying to go to a site visit with where the T vap phase two would be, and where planning reserve would be. But now i'm hearing something more like again what the bike tour might be like with the with the map that Jay brought to brought to a happy hour, so I i'm good for for anything. I think I think I love going around the city and observing what's, what's been built, and how it how it works. What if we? And again i'd be happy to help not to put it on all on you, but also But I love doing this sort of thing.

[57:05] But what if we shot for later in September? Sounds good. Okay? Well, i'll get to Philip and Jay, and we have our map. We know where we want to go talking about, you know, showing up someplace and then talking about the uh, how this you know. So the distinction, Philip, is that Now we're talking about having it as a formal meeting. So it's a formal meeting. It's publicly noticed, et cetera. Then yeah, you absolutely have the ability to do that. So if we're doing this, a site visit is still a formal meeting of the public being exact, So that's the way that we do it for something like this. And right Yeah. So maybe we would not.

[58:01] It might be more of a problem with a happy hour than the tour, although if the public was invited and it was posted. Then we'd be okay. Is that right? The Yeah. But let us work out the details. Yeah, Okay, Okay, three. Um. We'll just bring beers on it. That's what I said again. Terry is the map of places we're going the tour map already established, or the Yes, um uh! You missed our happy hour over the summer. But Jenny brought a a tour map he used, for I believe it was a staff orientation that was really good math. So can you? We use it for new Council members and new planning Board members. Typically

[59:00] does it have Iris Hollow on there and all that stuff. It's largely focused on recent the projects. So now well, we can prevent it if we want to. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And um, yeah, I mean. There's just There's so much affordable housing throughout the city that you're going to go panelists, lots of projects. And typically I point them out and talked about what I know about. Okay? Well, that's something we can make happen, maybe even before the next meeting. Thank you. I went back to my computer after each starting, and I hope it'll be more stable now. I'd like to go on to the next agenda Item, if there's no objection to that, and we already did have some ideas. It's all Michael, did. We vote on sending a letter, and we're just discussing it. I think we just voted on saying later didn't we?

[60:03] Who's keeping minutes, I remember given I do it a high-five and backflip we had to hear you want to to that. We we had even had a vote from the letter Terry motioned, and Danny seconded the sending of the letter, and it was unanimous. Okay, keep losing, Michael, Michael, are you back? Yeah, I'm: really sorry that I'm having all these. Okay, Can you hear me? Okay? Great. Yeah. What was the determination on our vote? We did vote

[61:04] all done. Keep keep moving on the agenda, Michael. Okay, Great? Ah, eighty years. We had a little bit of a to discussion before we could talk about it some more. I know there's some really interesting ideas out there, and the Council has opened the ears, and, you know, ranges from ah doing away with the saturation limits which currently are very restrictive, suggesting you're doing away with preference requirements. There's all kinds of ideas out there. Folks want to discuss it a little bit more now, or wait until we're a little farther down the road. When you say farther down the road, you mean at another meeting to talk to. But yeah, yes, or should we wait to hear what the update is from planning board and the retreat, and then weigh in or way in before I guess

[62:01] what's better. Oh, J. I'd ask you're you're learning guidance, what you think we should do on that. Yeah, it's a great question, Terry. I mean, like I said, Counsel is gonna listen to everybody at the study session as to what the focus should be. So this is your opportunity to shape um What they do this at your update? Looks like like, If have we come out and say we think taxes The most important thing that this project should deal with Then I think that lady, I I guess I just reiterate point that I've made time and time again for several years now, particularly with hey to use as well as some other things, is that I think in terms of what what I the focus should be. You know we could get into the you know, finer details of nuance, but it's really just a question of flexibility, timing

[63:11] um, dividing and simplifying the process for people to do so is absolutely important because time it is absolutely money, particularly given the of people I have to go through on something like this. And so to me that just still is the the driving point is that the the more available we make it from a procedural standpoint, the more available we make it from a technical standpoint for people to be able to do this the better. It is whatever we do in terms of the particulars. That's another thing. But I really I don't really see the huge need for restraints and neighborhood by neighborhood basis. You know we had a good conversation about that. I think it was in June about it in May. A car accident I can't remember perfectly, but but you know, on the whole notion that

[64:07] for any particular application people will still have an opportunity to, you know, express their concerns for something that's adjacent to them, et cetera. But to say that there's some sort of arbitrary threshold for any particular neighborhood or any particular area. I think we're past that. I think you know we need to try to really promote this. And again, it's going to be taking away the unnecessary restraints, providing more flexibility in terms of how that can be done, and you know the the manner in which it's done, and then expediting the process to get approvals, et cetera is is paramount. And then the last thing, the last thing that I think for a to use as well is just coming up with with some sort of system, you know, for occupancy, so that you know it's It's focused on what we really need it for which is local housing and vulnerable workforce, housing, et cetera. And even you know the thing i'd throw out there is,

[65:05] try and develop some sort of clearing out for people who on this side who need that housing, and on this side the housing that's available right because leaving it to their living it to to connect Craig's list, or whatever else it may be. If there's a clearing house, and and there's public awareness that there's a place that you can go, either. If you're trying to market an A to you, to local work workforce, or if you're trying to find an eighty that might be available, I think that's a huge element, and that's something that the city can do to really help um facilitate that. So that's that's my array of considerations on that. But you know. I think it's pretty longer right, and i'd love to see those things come in fruition. I think it could be really helpful great. Well, what if we drafted some recommendations before the next meeting, and not to vote on them, but to at least have something in front of us to discuss, and i'd be happy to take a lead on that. Maybe some of the

[66:10] mike. I'll work with you on that. Absolutely because I mean otherwise we're we're. I mean. It's a such an important issue. We are working a little bit back at the moment. What can you remind me what the date is when, when City Council is bringing this up October thirteenth, October the thirteenth. So we have September's meeting to approve something to submit. Yeah, Yeah. Okay, So I take back my earlier comment, we should. We should have some. We can go on the next meeting. So yeah, Danny, I can get to get something together. Circulate it. People are going to do it ahead of time, be ready to discuss it and throw out what we want to throw it. Keep in what we want to keep at, keep in and and forward a recommendation. So my suggestion for right now would be so. We could put that together, Michael, so anybody else, if there's anything anybody else can think of. Let's just start putting together a laundry list, but then we can kind of chew on there.

[67:11] We'll have the minutes. Um right, Tiffany. I guess that that will give us that laundry list. So I just say anybody that has any thoughts on it. But let's hear our mouse. We can put those together and then try to sure, like crystallize it as the next speak, so we can vote on. Yeah. Well, the removing saturation requirements will be a pretty obvious first one that I understand. Council might be friendly to. We could certainly make a recommendation on parking requirements, allowing more than one person to what the formula is. But you know maybe not. Um.

[68:01] What are some other ideas? I've been out there, Terry, what I think that we should, we should ask for a separate review track when it comes to adv you approval, you know, not have to go through the typical permitting process something that is just a to you specific. So it doesn't get caught up for months and months, and maybe years. I also think that maybe we can in that same vein we can propose some pre-approved Abu structures, whether it's design. You know, or modern design or a couple of three options where we say, Okay, Look, here's the template. Right? You have a one-story modern design, three hundred square feet of you You got a two-story about it. You have four or five different options that are that are pre-proved, pre-designed. You can literally, you know, cut and paste and that way. It gets rid of so much of the the design, confusion or design, ambiguity, or the square footage, ambiguity, and all that kind of stuff we say, look,

[69:11] and we got a nine hundred square foot option. That's one two stories with a basement, you know, and they're each a three hundred square footprint. I don't know if that's exactly right, but something along those lines, and there's three or four different architectural options, and as long as you have a backyard or a space that meets this side yard setback, you can do it I think that has to be a part of what we're recommending some type of a pre-proof template that allows people to just be able to walk in the city can hand them a pamphlet and say, options A, B, C or D are approved as long as you meet these three or four criteria, you know. Submit, and then it doesn't get bogged down into the long review periods that are typical,

[70:05] Anyway, that's my fault. That's great, I I believe. Ah, ah! The West Denver neighborhood has done a pilot project for one of those lines. It's been written up. Danny and I can take a look at that and see if it's this potential to adapt that to cool. Who else? I had raised my hand before Terry started speaking. And he kind of story kind of he kind of Oh, no, no, no, that's not what I meant to say. I wasn't trying to say he went out of order. I was just saying that he kind of summarized the points I was gonna try to to make. He did it better than I could have. The The one thing, I might add, is, I don't know if there's appetite or interest in exploring how prefab or manufactured homes might fit into the equation of what Terry was just talking about. I assume that

[71:01] you know, as this technology develops um, there'll be more and better attractive um options that are available. It'd be nice to have some some kind of pre-approval mechanisms for uh for for those kinds of options, too, arkansas great and just to clarify in the manufacturer. You're not talking about. You know what you're talking about, manufacturing homes that are in a stable foundation. I'm not sure. I i'm not sure I know the difference To be honest. Um, you know one of the glossy videos I saw with a company called Boxable, you know it shows up on a crane, and it unfolds, and it's ready to live in a couple of hours. So I don't know if that's realistic or not. Um and i'm. I'm all, for you know, building structures that are are going to last and and not, you know, we don't want to build a bunch of unsafe structures in the flood plane, you know. So

[72:05] okay Well, to be to be examined other thoughts that Danny, I can put on our most. So, Michael, just i'm sure just to remind folks remember, have spent a really long time talking about mobile ideas. Yeah, that's why I asked for that. Oh, i'm sorry, Philip wasn't on the board. Then that that's why I asked that clarification we have weighed in on what way to use, but those are a real subset of eight use. My question was, would this be a manufactured home intended for a permanent location, and I think that's probably what you're referring to. You know again, it could be some innovations and things we're worth looking at, that we can recommend you. I I hadn't thought about it in that context, and I've I've forgotten about that. I have. I have skinned through those recommendations about the the the mobile ones. Um, yeah, I I was kind of more thinking along the lines of like a an an actual uh fixed foundation structure,

[73:13] Right? Okay, and that it Can you hear me? All right. So I would just say, based on folks point: um also on a habitat for Humanity Board, and we've actually started with a few projects doing manufactured or prefab homes, because the quality is significantly increased, and and it helps address the labor challenges It's not necessarily the you know, the supply chain for materials, but it definitely helps address the labor challenges because it's it's on site, and and the manufacturers can can kind of plan for that. So I think it's a great idea.

[74:06] This is. This is probably too much of a digression. But as a side note about labor. Our boulder tech high school has a wonderful construction program that has a teacher who's eager to be involved in and ah adu uh development, so that that's one possible. You know. I don't know if it's a scalable solution, but it certainly it could raise community interest somehow. But excellent. Anything else I need to use, I think, just to review. We have a strategy, and i'm going to draft something sooner than later. I know we'll send it out well before the me. From you We have ideas where they have consideration for a motion motion to approve a recommendation ahead of the Council session on October the thirteenth. That all sounds reasonable and a good course forward. I think we can go on to the next agenda. Item, any any further comments

[75:14] Great uh, I am going to turn it back from to item six to J, and he's going to fill us in on some matters from his death and you mute it, Jack. Thank you. Yeah. We actually covered most of what I wanted to talk about tonight. But i'll go into a little bit more detail on the back In-person meeting. So I got some guidance just last week that boards and commissions will be returning to In-person. But the exact timing is still so. As I mentioned, there's a desire to have the hybrid option, So I think that there's a recognition that, having the community be able to participate remotely, has distinct advantages.

[76:04] Ah! So trying to work through the technology, How to make that happen is not as simple as it sounds, and figuring out all the procedures, so they'll be doing training for staff. So tipping not. Tiffany and I will be trained, but they are not committing to being back in person until towards the end of this year. So I just want to. But that out there is an expectation. It could happen earlier, but I just it could still be several months. Any questions about that? Yeah, if we went back to in person, where would we meet uh Council Chambers? Yeah, for those of you who join, since during the pandemic you'll even get your own, namely, that will be. We feed you before the meeting.

[77:00] You guys get to socialize a little bit. Um! We are very different. Dynamic, hey? Hey? J: You might forget the gal. You're right. It's actually not guaranteed that we'll be in Council Chambers part of the thing is they're trying to figure out where to house everyone for different boards and things like that, with the change of different boards on different sites now. So that is Tbd: at the moment on where we will be. Yeah, I saw that I was like I don't think we have a lot of competition for that room, but we we'll see It's possible we could be in a different room. Yeah, yeah, Well, after two and a half years of zooming. That sounds like an invitation to go clubbing. Thank you for that. Please. Please continue um. Let's see what else we got. Um

[78:02] know the Mike tour we talked about, so i'll get together with Michael and and and and Tiffany will probably a tific out a day. We'll do it dutiful to try to make sure that we have as many people as possible, and then we'll come up with a plan and just share it with you guys. There's a lot that we can do. I mean this difficult tour can be up to four hours, and i'm not sure. People want to dedicate four hours, but we can um scale it. And then I mentioned the October, the twenty Seventh Council Meeting, which is a study session on home ownership. We have not been to Council, particularly this new Council, to give them an update on housing. So a part of it is going to be educational, update them on progress towards our goals to achieve the fifty percent permanently affordable housing. Um, and then it's the focus is really on that one middle income. And the way that we're framing this is that when we talk about middle income, we're talking about pollution,

[79:04] right? Because rental middle income rental is basically on par with the market, right? And so a lot of people end up leaving the city to find a lower cost opportunities. So we're. We have some interesting things that we we hope to share in terms of approaches that we're taking to increase ownership opportunities. And it's really around two pieces. Specifically one is the talent gaming assistance pilot, so that older voters in two thousand and nineteen, and updating Council on the Progress towards implementing that. And then the other one is an update to our inclusionary housing program. So we last updated it in twenty, eighteen or seventeen

[80:02] somewhere around there, and we tried to put in a quite a few incentives to try to get developers to put their affordable housing on site, and we were not very so. Basically We want to present our findings what we've learned since that two thousand and eighteen dates. Um, and some ideas for moving forward. That's I think, October The twenty seventh is going to be very interesting for this group, and we will do our best to try to share with you the content of that Those meetings before we go to city Council. So any questions about that I don't think so. I encourage you to listen in on those study sessions. Is there? It's really important. Um great. Thank you. Jay, uh

[81:01] anyone have any questions for Jay before you we go to item seven. Okay, I'm: seven debrief being calendar check, and then we got good comments. People are paying attention to have, and urging us to do do our job. Um! We passed a recommendation to go to Council on a t-map two and in planning reserve. I'm really happy about that. Um! And we had a good discussion about how to use and determine a a path forward. We got an update from K about that matters from the City council and potential future meetings, and bike to calendar check. The next meeting is what they

[82:06] september the twenty, eighth, two thousand and twenty-two. Okay, great. So before then, Well, before then you'll be seeing some eightyu recommendation ideas. I'll send them to you individually as well. At the meeting. I hope we'll have a bike tour before them. Um, I think I covered everything recovered, and we've entertained that motion to adjourn, unless I, when that's further comment or any. I thought you, Danny, does. Are you muted so moved? I'm just I have a comment. Oh, if if I may! Ah! One of one of the themes that came up in the comments section that just sort of percolated into my brain as Jay was talking. That's related to the A. To use is perhaps role in educating people, and one of the things we might consider doing with our

[83:07] proposal for a to use is maybe have a like a a reading list a podcast list, things that ah would be good for people in the general public to go, listen to, or read, to become more educated on that I think that'd be a really nice service to to offer as a maybe an appendix, or you know something to include with the with the letter. Great idea. Um, i'd be happy to poke around. Send out a list a couple of things to read. What you want to do. A Phil, I can. I can. I can spend some time doing that. Excellent! Thank you.

[84:03] Another listening session specific to this update and that could be help be part of our community engagement for this update. It's a great idea. I think. We had previous agreement that we would wait until we went live to do a listening session. We were so successful with virtual listening sessions. Um! But, uh, you know, as soon as we can do that, i'd love to do that it might not be before I cover the thirteenth as a potential tool for them. Okay, would that be separate from our year, or could that be our meeting? I'd like you, I would replace your an existing meeting. It's for It's half a meeting or something.

[85:01] That idea we she program. No, I don't think we need to vote on that right now. I mean, I think that's maybe something that we can put in the uh the list, the letter, whatever that we uh you know, put together for next month, so we'll we'll throw that out there. We don't even know we're going to have in person. Okay, put it on the list. Okay, anyone else? Or did I hear a motion to adjourn? So moved I'm. Second Second: all in favor. Hi, Hi, Thank you. Everybody for a great meeting. We'll see you next month, not before on a bike tour. That sounds great. It's safe to all.