January 13, 2021 — Housing Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

[MM:SS] timestamps correspond to the YouTube recording.

[0:03] Do you want me to let everybody in Yeah, let's let everyone Ready. Okay. Okay, great. Corey. Shall I will let you take care of that. I will with the one that has the phone number. You can go ahead and get started. Okay. Awesome. Perfect, I'll go ahead and do roll call. Well actually no, I'll call this meeting to the meeting has begun. And now I'll do roll call. And how many meetings and I still don't know the order of things. Okay, great. So I'm going to go for the order on my screen. So we have Judy nog here jack Julian's Here, let's see. Juliet Boone Great. Teri polo. Yes, yes. Great Danny Theodore. Ooh. Yep, I see you and Mason Moyer. Great. And then our ex officio Sarah silvery see you. Hello, welcome back. I'm

[1:01] Perfect. So everyone's here. And let's go to our agenda review. Are there any additional agenda items to be brought forth tonight. Seeing none, I will actually bring forward in item. Last night was The boards and commissions presentations that Council and I have a follow up item to discuss in response to that there was some back and forth between some council members and myself. And so I'd like to discuss Our relationship with council and how we can, you know, improve and strengthen that there are some suggestions and so I'd like to open it up to the To the board to discuss. You know how we want to move forward, you know, and improving long term relationships with the board. So I'd like to add that after five be which would be

[2:04] Um, nope, sorry, six be after the discussion about the march housing insecurity listening session, I expect it will be a quick, you know, potentially quick discussion so it won't, it won't take up a lot of time. So I'd like to bring forward emotion to add add that item after five be Right, you're, you're all muted. Yes, I Moved Up play And choose to be seconded. All in favor of adding the item after five be 1234 Great. Motion passes. Oh, Hey, Jay, or someone is sharing their screen. That's great. Okay, great. So we can move forward then to the public hearing

[3:00] And I will hand it over. I will hand it over to Jay, yeah. You go ahead. I'm just going to go over some of the role so hi empty so staff with the city of Boulder. So welcome to the zoom meeting. This is sort of our first zoom meeting housing advisory board is done with interpretation services. So there are a couple of things to keep in mind for this portion of the meeting. So please keep your mute. Jack When you're not speaking. Thank you. It's going to help a lot. A lot of these roles that just to help the interpreter to be able to provide this list this service so also the you'll notice this interpretation button at the bottom. So you can select your preferred language by clicking on that globe. And a couple guidelines. So speak slowly.

[4:02] And clearly pronounce your words and breathe between sentences that would be that's extremely important. It takes a lot of time or effort on the part of the interpreter. So, just please take your time. Try not to interrupt each other. It makes it really difficult as well. If you have a headset with a microphone. Please use it. Select one language channel and speak only in that channels language so You can ask questions or you can the interpreter will interpret the Spanish speaker and that's testifying. I think I got that right. And then finally, just tried to avoid using idioms, they're difficult to interpret things like quit cold turkey or being under the weather. So those are some of the guidelines for the interpretive keys and then I just wanted to cover quickly.

[5:03] The normal rules that we cover for public meetings. Hold on one second. So these are our usual rules. So we do try to strike a balance between meaningful transparent engagement as well as online security. So this is an official city meeting any activity that does disrupt or otherwise delay are prohibited. There is a time for speaking and asking questions. But it's limited. No person shall speak except one recognized by the person died in this case it's Charlotte, the chair and you speak for longer than the allotted time Person so registered to speak. So using your real name in Korea as well.

[6:05] Any person believed to be using a pseudonym will not be permitted to speak. And no video will be permitted, except of city officials employees and invited speakers. Everyone else will be asked to participate by voice only the person presenting the meeting shall enforce these rules. So again, Charlotte, the chair. If the chat function, the chat function is enabled, please. Only use that to communicate with either Korea or myself if you're having technical difficulties. And then as I, as we talked about only the host and individuals designated by the host can share their screen during the meeting. So those are the quick rules. And with that I'll turn it back to you. Charlotte to start the public hearing Perfect. Um, let's see. Let me get back to my agenda here. Thanks for that che will speak very slowly.

[7:08] Um, is there a staff presentation before the public hearing, that's the order. I'm seeing on the agenda so crystal I'm is that, that's right. Is that your understanding. Yeah, I'm also seeing we've had to well two People come into the room. I will have many of them. Yeah. And I believe they're both them. I'm guessing, they'll go into the Spanish language channel. So it may be worthwhile to just, I don't know if there's anything we Need a we've oriented ourselves. And they're pretty familiar with. How to use the interpretation function. So I think we should all select an English. The English Channel at this point. Am I right, Marina Not sure if marinas she might be actually still in the Spanish channel.

[8:01] I think she is Yeah, so everybody who's staying in the English should should select English and if your Spanish speaking, you should select Spanish So everyone at the bottom you'll see the interpretation globe. So just choose English If that's the language, you'd like to use. And I'm not sure what that does for our I think there's their phone codes and I'm not sure what they are. If it's like Star one or two. Marina. Do you know You don't know. Okay. Okay so well, hopefully, I think. Everyone Is familiar that's I've seen in multiple public meetings like this before. So I think all the Spanish speakers are all set. And hopefully the English as well. Perfect. So will you proceed with with the presentation first.

[9:01] Yes, perfect. Marina Are you all set. Okay, great. Thank you. Where we going to do the minutes. I'm sorry, where we can approve the minutes. He, um, so the approval. It's later Judy, especially after regular purchase public participation. So don't worry I didn't forget it. Time good you checked. All right, I'm trying to make sure I don't choose the wrong screen. With that one. PowerPoint slideshow. Does this look like the slideshow. Oops, let me see here.

[10:02] Does that look correct. Okay. Great. Perfect. So, good evening, board members. I'm crystal launder and I'm here tonight to talk about ordinance at 432 the manufactured home sales ordinance. The last time I presented to this board was on in July of 2019 when I as staff have brought to the board. The manufactured housing strategy. And so the item that you're seeing tonight is Part of the implementation of that manufactured housing strategy that you heard a little over a year ago. Okay. So, as noted in the memo manufactured housing is the most affordable market rate housing option and bolder market rate of homeownership. Excuse me. But there's a tension that exists between the rights of the homeowner and the manufactured home community owner exercising their role as a landlord.

[11:09] So as I go through this presentation, I'm going to start with going over the major State and local policy milestones. That regulate this industry and regulate that landlord tenant relationship in Boulder, including ordinance 8383 which is part of the implementation. Of the manufactured housing strategy that has already passed back in September, and then I will also touch on the guiding principles of the strategy. The community engagement process. And then at that point I will dive into the proposed changes to code section 10 1225 and 10 1226 and you'll come to understand more of what I'm talking about what those code sections in just a minute or two here.

[12:05] So before I talk about this slide in the next slide. Just please note that on most of the slides I'm going to have the English in on the left side in teal and on the right side in kind of that slate gray color. It will be the Spanish, but for these two slides, I'm having this the state policy in that slate gray and the local policy in that teal color. So manufactured housing regulation or policy really began in 1991 with the passage of the Colorado mobile home park act and that act was was updated about approximately decades later, And then the city started doing more in the are actually its first real effort of regulating that landlord tenant relationship in

[13:05] With ordinance at 43 and that ordinance addressed. Ensuring that Manufacturing manufactured homeowners could sell their pre 1976 homes and that any upgrades that were required by the park by the Community, owner of the homeowner were not excessive. And then there was also a provision about the responsibility for tree maintenance being that of the Community owner In two years later in 2017 ordinance. Then was adopted and that ordinance introduced a right to privacy for the homeowners. It also introduced prohibition against retaliation And the final piece that it introduced was mediation. So it allows it kind of creates an opportunity for mediation between those two parties instead of always just kind of, you know, litigating or taking taking actions against one another.

[14:20] Kind of see did it advance Okay, so did I skip. Did I skip a slide. Okay, I'll go back Yeah, and then more recently. In At the state level, the mobile home park oversight act or act oversight bill introduced the dispute resolution and enforcement program and that program. was really the first time that there's some active regulation of this bill. Previously, you would have to go to court if there was a conflict that that was covered by the Act.

[15:03] And then also, and then moving back here locally in 2019 the manufactured housing strategy was adopted. And and two bills were passed last year at the state level, the mobile home park act updates and so that's another update bell, that's come along since since the mobile home park Act was established, and that had a lot of clarifying Of the mobile home park act and then also the mobile home park residents opportunity to purchase bill. So that was that was enacted. And what that does is when a when a community comes up for sale that residents live in. They now have an opportunity to participate in and have an opportunity to potentially purchase that that community. And so the most recent piece of the most recent ordinance that's come forward out of the

[16:08] mobile home park. Excuse me. The manufactured housing strategy came forward to Council on sep tember first of last year. And we just kind of generally call that the manufactured housing ordinance because it was a bucket of of action items that had come out of the strategy. Those items included enforcement improvements to chapter 1012 there were some some challenges with pursuing enforcement. And so we did some kind of clarifying and just making it easier We also from this ordinance. There was a language access notification. So now, a park community owner would notify a Homeowner as their as they're moving in.

[17:02] Or as they hand out new rules and regulations or if there are notices the come out with the least that they have that there are resources that the city has that can help them. With if they have needs around language. Then there are a number of new tenant notifications, including rent history increase Restrictions fees for late payments and dishonor checks and deposit or use fees for facilities and amenities. And finally there's a 60 day notification requirement if if the lot dimensions are going to change. And there are four guiding principles of the manufactured housing strategy. Those are affordability accountability viability and community and the two that that are being forwarded tonight with ordinance at 432 are affordability. So it really kind of ensures

[18:09] That the retaining of the value of that home for the homeowner or at least advances that opportunity and then there is also the general idea of Community being that There's we've identified that there are vulnerable community members living in these communities and just providing additional protections So this is a chronology here of our engagement process. I haven't starting on sep tember first with that city council meeting when 83 when ordinance. Was adopted. Because that was really when we started hearing from homeowners a large number of homeowners that, you know, they really weren't talking in their emails about the ordinance they you know when they were providing

[19:07] Testimony or Writing to the Council, they were actually talking about the need for a dish for regular more regulation for mobile home sales. And then so after that actually the city council directed us to adopt at they adopted. But directed staff to bring that back to them by the end of the year. And so we went through some received some proposed amendments from a coalition of homeowners. And we had a stakeholder opposition opportunity between October 26th and November 11 and then it came to Council on December 15 there was an email again from a coalition of homeowners. That there was additional changes that needed to happen.

[20:04] And so Council suggested that it come to the housing advisory board. And so we've had another round of input. Collected between December 22 in January 5 and we're here tonight. And then we have a couple of city council meetings coming up. So the first reading, and the second reading, ideally, And so again, so what this mobile home sales ordinance does is it amends. To existing code sections or two that I've already talked about 10 1225 which is that limitation on the prohibition sale of mobile homes. That's the official title and the 10 1226 limitation on required upgrades to existing mobile homes. And

[21:00] It introduces new restrictions and those restrictions would include that community owners would not be able to interfere with discourage or delay home sales or purchases They would not be able to interfere with listing or sale of a home by providing false information unreasonable delays steering potential buyers to other homes or discouraging potential buyers and then And then NO INTERIOR inspection of the home could be required by the Community owners. And then 10 1226 some of the new restrictions include or two. The two new restrictions include requiring They could not require unreasonable upgrades of accessory structures. So currently, the code reads that you can't require unreasonable upgrades of the home. But this extends it so that it also addresses the accessory structures so often there are like car ports and sheds and porches.

[22:08] And This last bullet deny residency or hinder sale if buyer agrees to perform maintenance or repairs. So what that means is that currently It's, it's the seller who performs any of that as they go to sell their home they're given The there's a an inspection that occurs and then they're asked to perform any, you know, kind of necessary maintenance repairs. This allows that the buyer to assume that responsibility. But if a buyer doesn't seem that responsibility they couldn't be denied residency or there couldn't be like a, you know, kind of impacts on that ability to sell. I think the new timelines are are a big piece of what's happening with this. It's really kind of setting.

[23:03] X timelines and expectations, one of the risks for a home owner is when they Are trying to sell their home if if the timeline extends too much, it can create a lot of challenges with selling the home. So these timelines just kind of ensure that they're that it kind of marches along and there's understand understanding by the Community owner and then also by the By the seller and the buyer of of what the timing is And then three other this is my catch all slide. So there's also, when one of the challenges that I think has existed since we enacted 10 1225 and 26 is that home buyers and home sellers are often unaware That they have both rights and responsibilities under, under these this code section. These code sections. And so this would give those sellers and buyers that notification and it would also bring the provide them with a link to the mobile home park resources web page.

[24:15] Which would have a user friendly buyers and sellers guide. Another challenge certainly has been that people are often just trying to interpret the code and and it's hard to interpret the code codes are written for enforcement. Not necessarily, you know, for regular reading Some flexibility is introduced through this There is a deadline on the previous slide, there's a deadline that when a buyer. When a potential buyer is approved or denied that then they should be notified within 10 days. 10 business days. But what the flexibility created is that if there is something that's beyond their reasonable control like a pandemic, for example.

[25:05] You know that that could be considered because the the penalty if you if they can't meet that 10 day deadline. Is that that there's an automatic approval of that buyer. And another piece of flexibility is is that piece again that I spoke about the buyer may complete the required repairs. So previously it was only The seller. That was responsible for that. That was challenging for all the, you know, kind of older homeowners that might be on a fixed income to perform all those repairs. So that's just creating flexibility so that the buyer could potentially repair perform those repairs instead And there's just some new clarifying terms, the term improvement. There was some concern that that wasn't It sounds like it has that it's just broader than that. So we've really changed that to the word work, you know,

[26:06] And so With that, here is the next steps slide. So again, just a reminder that will be bring this to city council for first reading on February 2 and then two weeks later, it's scheduled for a second reading. I probably should have put in a questions slide, but this is the the emotion language if if that's the decision of the board to adopt this. And with that, I am done with my section. Thanks crystal. You're welcome. You and I'm wondering if you want to stop sharing your screen so folks can ask questions or we can keep this up as as it's helpful potentially

[27:03] Sure. I'm just See here. Okay. I'm trying to figure out how to share here. I apologize. Something migrated in front of That's okay. My menu. Well, while you're working through that. I'm just going to scroll through here and an open it up to the board for questions to Crystal if board members have questions. Will you just physically, raise your hand. I'm scrolling through here. Okay, great. I see that Danny's hand is up. So, Danny. You want to go ahead and ask your question. And speak slow speak slowly. Remember Okay. So I'm just want to clarify the Scope of the feedback that Councils looking for from us. So, so that you know we're kind of pointed

[28:04] And directed in terms of what input or feedback is most important from councils perspective to get from us on this. Yeah, so I think my read it and I think Jay is as good at answering this as I am, but my my read from that meeting. As you know, this is another opportunity for A PUBLIC HEARING because they wanted to have additional opportunities for that. So certainly some of it is, I think, hearing from the community and then Certainly a, you know, if you because because this originated from. Community members and it's been actually through quite a lot of of vetting to get it here. But I don't. Jay, what are your thoughts.

[29:00] I think you answered it. Well, I mean basically Council is asking The language to make sure we get it right before it goes back to them. So that's, that's really your task. Awesome jack. I saw your hand is wild. Do you have a question. Yeah, just I kind of reading through it. There was just one thing that popped out to me. And as you said, maybe this has already been through a lot of vetting but in If I just said that. Right. See the final piece that they're just the park owner fails to deliver. Notice that Niall or approval within 10 business days shall be deemed approved. I totally get the concept for that. My only concern. It's and maybe this is worked out later in the process, but my only concern is that you're creating a condition where

[30:06] Potentially, somebody could assume that, as approved because the 10 days is passed, and then the property owner can come back with a Event beyond their reasonable control, but there may have already been kind of legal entanglements real estate wise at that point. I'm not sure. So anyway, that was just that was the only thing that I made any note of in there. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I will just run that concerned by our the attorney. Okay, great. That I'm working with. Yeah. you're muted. unmuted. Well, on that note, that kind of language is used a lot in contracts to avoid people from dragging their feet.

[31:00] But the the unintended consequence there is if the mobile home park owner knows that that's out there, then kind of knee jerk reaction is just to deny it right away so so that way. They're not automatically being Approved for 10 days. So that's something also think about that languages and a lot of contracts. Again, because they don't want people to to drag their feet and want to get an answer and that kind of stuff, but it can make things very complicated. In general, reading some of this stuff. It seems like there's a lot of ping pong back and forth like within five days this and then if that happens, three days there. And then if It's just a lot of back and forth to keep track of. I understand the concept we want to make it easier for people to buy and sell mobile homes and that makes perfectly good sense to me. It's just sometimes, you know, speaking from from an attorney's perspective that reads a lot of legal contracts. These are written by lawyers. A lot of times that it's within five days. This has to happen. And then if that doesn't happen within three days that has to happen. But that doesn't happen within seven days that does that happen.

[32:03] And I get it because you're trying to set time deadlines, it just can get really complicated in a situation where Where, where people I don't know a that close of attention to five days or four days. They're just something to be aware of. I'm not suggesting changes. It just can get really complicated and then you layer on, you know, the business transaction. The real estate transaction of, you know, typically loans and and contracts and, you know, all that kind of stuff that happens on the other side. It can get complicated as old saying, I don't know if there's a way to make it easier. Sounds like these rules are attempting to do that. That sounds like they will do that. If they're adopted, but It just don't. It's a tough deal Yeah, I mean, I think, may I speak to that concern. Yeah, yeah, I think. The user. The user friendly buyer and seller guide really could be useful to a community owner as well.

[33:06] Because that will have it, you know, kind of, we're going to try to boil it down and simplify it. So it's easy to track from that perspective. Judy. This is a question for either a crystal or Charlotte. That's nice. This part right here. After the public speaks, will we get another chance to discuss or ask questions, or is this it Yep, there will be discussion board discussion and then our decision, following the public comment. Thanks. Right. Are there any other questions. At this time, before we move to the public hearing Julia. Can you guys hear me. Can you hear me. I was just curious. I mean, it seems straightforward and mutually beneficial and bringing like it brings clarity to these situations of what are the objections been to something like this on either side. I'm just curious that one wanting to understand

[34:15] Their even are any objections, seems like it would be Straightforward. Yeah, I have it. I think I feel like I've tried to document. You know all of the input on both sides. One of the observations that I made is In my the input that I received from the community owners often didn't line up necessarily You know, it wasn't there weren't many points of tension between them, it was maybe a request for you know that Say from a community owner that there was that 60 additional You know, a 60 day limit on the buyer that they, you know, they, they had to have some kind of reasonable cut off where they completed the repairs. If they had assumed them. I think the one point maybe where there was any tension was around that that 10

[35:15] That 10 days it's, it's important to it was expressed by homeowners as being important to have that shorter timeline to for the buyer to know whether or not they had been approved. But there was, you know, there's concerns that just things can go wrong. And so that's the solution really was to have it be 10 it originally and the language was 10 days we bumped it up to 10 business days. And then we also created that Flexibility so that you know if something just beyond the control of the Community owner came up that they could appeal. So is that Terry was that what you were referencing there just the timing piece.

[36:00] Just I mean I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or or change it. It's just, you're just getting these pink on battles and these agreements, sometimes you know 10 days for this five days for that three days for this and it just and for people who will, you know, It's fine. I'm not saying it was wrong with it just did some Great. Anything else before we move to the public hearing Okay. And I'm sure that there will be more discussion afterwards. I'm eager to hear from our Our guests here so I'd like to move to the public hearing, Jay. Were you going to outline the rules for the public hearing or or shall I go ahead and do that. Oh, you're muted. I covered them earlier.

[37:01] Okay. Oh, right. Okay, so if you are you going to pull up a clock. The clock. I can share the clock. Okay, great. Each speaker minutes. Um, and so I you know it looks like there are eight people actually seven because I think Renee is using her phone for her voice so I'm going to start in no particular order. I apologize if you entered the room for someone else you're all on my screen. So I'm just going to go in order. You'll all be able to speak so forgive me. I will start with, let's see. I'm sorry if I mispronounced your name but lose Garcia and I'm going to ask you to unmute yourself here.

[38:00] And apologies if you're just if you're just here to listen, then We can move on. Loose maybe on the Spanish language channel. Okay, I'm okay. I'm not sure. Okay, what the solution is to that. Okay. We'll um Let's will there be translation from Spanish to English as well. Right, okay. Why don't we keep going and come back as we figure out what's going on with Will come back to you loose will come back to you. So let's see. Next one. My screen. I'm going to go to, Renee. Renee. I know that you're using your phone. If I understand correctly, to speak. So I'm going to ask you to unmute your phone.

[39:10] Sorry guys, figuring it Out. Hello. Yes. I think that was Amy. So I'm going to meet me and then To speak again. 13034432074: Hello. Hello. Hi. All right, go ahead. Go ahead. Thank you for coming. 13034432074: Thank you. So this is Renee humble I'm president of the disability community Association on and I appreciate that housing advisory board hearing this, I'm very grateful to city council for 13034432074: All the words that they are doing on behalf of manufactured homeowners. I just want to stress the importance of this ordinance for the people who live in our community. 13034432074: There have been so many violations. I don't know how many of you are able to read the letter that I sent. I think it was yesterday.

[40:04] 13034432074: But these problems just kind of avalanche last year like five different people I talked to her traumatized by their selling experience. And they're actually more people I talked to who didn't feel traumatized, but who had certain problems that are addressed by this this ordinance. 13034432074: And I do want to emphasize what Crystal said about 13034432074: In response to the question regarding that 10 business days to approve a buyer as she pointed out the 10 days language has been in the last since 2015 for almost six years now, and I haven't heard of any problems with that. So it was actually 13034432074: In the park owners. 13034432074: Interest to change it to 10 business days, which is actually a little bit longer, the timelines are also quite important.

[41:01] 13034432074: Another thing that I sent like this afternoon, which you probably didn't get to see is one of our homeowners who moved requested request told park that they were selling 13034432074: In July, and they didn't get around to doing the inspection until September, and that's just way too long to wait and with our mobile home you know we're paying lot rent every single month. And it's not like 13034432074: A mortgage, Tom, where, you know, well, you pay the mortgage and you're actually building equity with each mortgage payment. This is just expense expense expense. So the longer things delay. 13034432074: The harder it is and there are instances where at the very last minute on the day of closing they add new requirements that the seller is supposed to take care of. 13034432074: So it's, it's just been very, very difficult for people here and they really feel like the ordinance. 13034432074: provides a clear and reasonable guidelines for everyone to follow and that it will be very helpful for us all moving forward. So I very much appreciate your consideration of this. And I think that's all I have to say. So thank you.

[42:14] Did this is Crystal. I apologize for stepping in. BUT IT, RENEE was speaking fairly quickly. If people can speak a little bit more slowly. I know she had a lot to say. Thank you. For sure, apologies that I didn't Emphasize that before she 13034432074: Started Thank you, Renee. I'm gonna mute you muted yourself. Okay, let's see. Um, so I know I see Amy's hand raised. And I want to make sure that everyone who wants to speak. Gets to speak. So if you want to speak, please raise your hand and you can click on react. I believe it's Nope. How do you raise your hand. Let's see.

[43:04] You can React reactions. Is it reactions I i don't i don't see. I only see the clap and then the thumbs up in reactions. So if you want to speak. Oh, so you go to participants, I believe, no. And then to be on here. Okay, well in the in the chat. If you can't find it, the raise hand in the chat. Oh good, Tanya found it. That's great. I can't If you can find the raise hand. Raise your hand if not send me just send, send, send me a chat and indicating that you'd like to speak and what you know, in one way or another, and all I'll call on you.

[44:01] Thanks for everyone's patience of this. This is the first time I'm doing a public hearing here. So, okay, um, I will go to Amy next since I saw That hand go up and I see Amy unmuted. So you can go ahead and start. Whenever you're ready. Thanks. Hello. Good evening. My name is Amy both and I'm an attorney that specializes in representing manufactured home parks. I'm here specifically representing Folder meadows. Today I first like to thank the city of Boulder on specifically crystal, they are out of all the municipalities. I work with One of the most receptive and responsive in terms of feedback from the communities and really anybody in this process. That being said, One of the things I would like to identify when we're looking at these additional regulations is to go back to what we just heard crystal explained to in length.

[45:03] And that is the amount of regulations that have been brought up and imposed on the mobile home industry in the last two to three years. Now I'm not going to debate whether it was necessary or not. I think that most of those changes are good, but we've had so many now they are becoming duplicative Specifically, we now have a statewide program that is funded by each unit that is privately owned or A lease option on a mobile home lot that they pay $24 per year on to create this dollar program where tenants free of charge, and also landlords Can bring their grievances and there's some expertise on what the rules are and how they are to be followed. That is something that has just been enacted, about a year now, a little less than a year and we need time to, you know, see how that works. But now let's specifically talk about this folder ordinance. One of the examples of duplication on the ordinance and it does go to this idea of timelines. Is your 10 1225 seat.

[46:09] Okay that's on your page 10 to 11 that's where it does state that 10 days for denial and they 10 days also to explain the denial Well, already the Colorado rental application Fairness Act addresses this, they just don't do it consecutively giving that landlord. More time because think about it. You got 10 days to get all the paperwork done, then they're staying in that team 10 days, you need to get that park players to write down exactly why you're denied. Where the rental fairness x gives you 20 days so 10 days to deny another 10 days to explain why another Issue that we have with this ordinance is the six month limitation in the paragraph. It's regarding repairing the home. You know, they give you up to six months for the landlord to give that deadline. We have never seen a home, take that long, nor have this ever become a problem. It's just another unnecessary regulation that those times have to be kept track on

[47:04] So once again, in general. There's a lot of good to be done, that has already been done to add these additional regulations. Are just going to end up hindering and often confusing the tenant and certainly bogging down the landlord. So thank you guys very much. And thank you, the city of Boulder again for always listening. You, yo. All right. And I see Tanya's hand raised. And so I'm going to go over to Tanya. 20 I'll ask you to unmute you. Hello. Hello. This is Tanya petty as I'm at Vista village. Here in Boulder as well. And I completely disagree with Amy. I think these regulations are much needed, I believe that the protections for the homeowners themselves who are actually paying for the investment is

[48:11] Completely one sided to the management and compute community owners. I tried to sell my home. And a few years back, and I was given a list that would have cost me thousands and thousands of dollars. And so I was discouraged from selling when asked for them to do an inspection and it never happened. Many of my buyers were discouraged because of my advocacy for homeowners rights and participation in the HOA and starting at here. I've been an advocate for years coming to the city council with issues relating to homeowner problems.

[49:05] And neighbor had to spend seven to $8,000 to sell their home in order to get out of here and move. There's several people that cannot afford to do that I myself cannot afford to do that, and I would like to sell my home at some point and It's been very difficult to get any type of cooperation at all. And in regards to the duplicity in the state new laws in the state enforcement. They're not even set up hardly yet. I've been participating in all a lot of their Zoom calls and stuff. And they've had 90 some complaints, but very few have been settled and they're just can they're just hiring people to do the investigations, the initial

[50:01] What are they called the, you know, when you talk to the people conversations, the initial conversations to start those investigations. So to rely on that as a deterrent is not appropriate at this time as well. I would like to thank as well. The city council and the mobile home strategy people that have been involved in the engagement with the communities as well as the homeowners. And or I'm in community owners and I appreciate their ability to clarify, not only the problem, but the solutions to those problems, and I would like to appreciate the Council as well for giving us this time to voice our opinions in this matter. In a way that the community can be heard. Thank you very much. Thanks, Tanya. Alright.

[51:01] So I want to see there any other speakers loser Carlos. Oh, perfect. You found you found where to raise your hand, please. I'm going to unmute you. I think you can speak now. Okay. Thank you so much. I had to switch got to myself onto the computer. Hi, my name is local ECM been working suitable for a couple years, and my role is to Engage the underrepresented communities bring their voices, and I think this is my time to to just reinforce and to probably educate a little bit more that selling a house for a mobile home owner is not like a regular house. We have to understand that. The people are the residents. People who lives in mobile home, most of them there are p their residence in low income community and when they tried to sell their houses.

[52:03] They're selling everything they're sending their savings. They're selling their selling their history and beliefs that they can give this some transparency. In the process and cooperation from the landlords to make this process simple because it's very difficult for them to just let go without the transparency that everything is going to come Right in my experience working with the community. They are community that is been a request in for long and Now be targeted like they've been target for so many years and he's only want the last couple years than mobile homes. They've been having a lot of protections and the communities they getting educated on that so transparency in this process. From the landlords to the rest of this I'm future residents and respect the rights that they have it will make a difference and I will encourage the other guys that are here, Carlos and Sonia and my colleague that maybe they can speak at once again.

[53:16] mobile homes communities. A being not Boyle. Knowing for respecting the rights now they have this opportunity and they asked for trust transparency and to let them be Understanding and meaningful that their mobile homes. It's everything for them, their houses. Their, their home the past, the present, and the future. And that's what I had to say. So I will support what crew soldiers president, they will present it. And thank you so much for representation in English and in Spanish makes a lot of difference. Thank you guys.

[54:02] Thank you. So would. Would anyone else like to speak. Would love to hear from you if you're here. Okay. If you're unable to find the hand raise Please send a note. OK. Cory. Do you see anything indicating that anyone else would like to speak. No, nothing on my end and it is in the participants, you can hover over your name, the blue button that says more and that should give the participants icon. Well,

[55:02] Perfect. Just a little, just little kiddo is the other Sarah. What is the, what is the opportunity there. Yeah, Krista or Sutra, whoa, then to Las Casas marvelous you cook a total cases. Does he enjoy is in beneficial and also to have lost profit areas across as more or less rap he your customers acquire them. Unless you're masking system really Sambo see prices for what is the opportunity that you guys Thank you. That worked very well. I really, I'm really appreciative of this translation service tonight. Thank you for arranging that Perfect. Steve, is there anyone else.

[56:02] Not that I see Sonia is our last participant, but I don't see a hand raised. Okay. Okay. Well, with that, thank you so much for everyone who's participated and I'd like to open it up to the board for discussion and Potentially. Other questions. So I'll, I'll open it up. If you want to speak, you raise your hand. Awesome. Danny, you can go ahead Of just regarding some of the procedural issues and the timeframes and potential overlap with The ordinance in the state structure. Frankly, you know, there's a big difference between 20 days overall and 10 and 10. There are a lot of things that I like in the ordinance that I think worked really well and so i don't i don't

[57:01] See it as something that's not necessarily because the State has their own set of regulations in the cities lay this out based on on its particular considerations, just for example 10 days to approve or deny, and then another 10 days to Provide a reasonable cause for doing so as a lot different than 20 days. To make that decision, collectively, and so I like The structure that the ordinance has in regards to a lot of these things. And a lot of the timeframes. And the fact that We talked about it before I think stockbroker that brought it up. But there's a lot of There's a Basically, a lot of very, I think, Terry actually said if there's a lot of very tight considerations when you're dealing with any sort of real estate transaction. So Times absolutely of the essence and having something that structures, all that together. I think is really important. So I like the with the regulations, trying to do. And then I like some of the steps that it takes to accomplish what is trying to do.

[58:13] That Judy. Okay, well first of all thank you to the great speakers and also thank you to the many people who sent us emails. I had a virtual meeting with a homeowner. And I basically asked three questions I asked, is there anything in there that you don't want. And she said, No. I said, Is there anything in there that you think should be added and she said no. And I said, What is it that you want the most. And she said, for this to happen really quickly. And she was delighted that we had moved our meeting up till today today so that we could go ahead. But what she was most interested in, in what she feels most of the homeowners are most interested in is this moving swiftly and she felt that crystal.

[59:12] Had done a lot of work on this. And so, so I have no questions at all myself. I just, just to let everybody know will be voting, just to approve it with that changes. Thanks, Judy. What else either from comments or anything from other other Members. Okay, well, I am Judy. I appreciate your comments and Danny, as well as well as all the speakers. I'm so grateful that you all came and I really appreciate all the emails as well. You know this, this seems like an easy and easy easy decision for me, you know. Not only does this protect you know homeowners. It provides more transparency, not only for homeowners and landlords by setting those clear expectations but ultimately fosters greater diversity protects

[60:14] Our you know our diverse city and, you know, prevents homeowners from being taken advantage of. And so I have no changes and just wanted to let everyone know that I do support this and will be voting on on it accordingly. But are there. Other comments before we move to a vote on this because we will vote on whether we approve it, as is tonight. Okay yeah not seeing anything Okay well with that then Oops.

[61:01] I will put forward a motion to approve. Let me see to approve ordinance at 432 as is for city council to discuss at their next meeting for first reading. I have a question. Oh, Sorry, what Can I just had a question. Are we voting on approving us or are we voting on recommending that Council. The Council review and approve, as is. Yeah, so we are proving what what I'm proposing apologies that wasn't clear. I am proposing that we approve this the ordinance as is for Council to review at their next meeting and I believe that will be first reading, Jay.

[62:03] Is that correct, yes. So language that we have up for you might be the easiest Okay, yeah. So there it is. It's up on the screen now. Oh, so that's really helpful. We will always provide that for you. Thanks, Julia. Does that make sense now that it's up there. I don't see it. So, but I must have a Yeah, be looking at the right screen here. Look at yours. Yeah, yeah. So we're recommending we're not necessarily. I just didn't think we had the power to vote yes or no on something. I think we're voting to recommend that they As is And I got it, yeah. Okay, that's all. I just wanted to clarify that. Yep, no. For sure. Thanks. So I'm going to move forward with this then so motion to recommend City Council, the City Council adopt ordinance at 430 to revive Revising chapter 12 mobile homes by amending sections 10 1225 limitation on the prohibition of sales mobile homes and 10 1226 limitation on the required upgrades to existing mobile homes.

[63:13] BRC 1981 and setting forth related details. Okay, second dad, and then On the second did. Sorry. Thank you. All right, I'll in favor Six. All right. Okay. It looks like we have six seven okay passes unanimously, perfect. From Charlotte. I have a question. Is it okay for crystal to mention that that we did have, you'll probably do this anyway. But we did have a number of people speaking, we did get a number of emails and that we

[64:10] Supported and dizzy aesthetically, something like that. Yeah, for sure. And I'm Corey, are you, you are taking notes. Is that right, Correct. Okay, and Maybe you can just include that in in the notes and then In terms of communicating this to counsel. Jay, is that something that you'll do A crystal do it in the memo basically explained the recommendation was and she can put in the work enthusiastically and their team if I i like i think that's fine. Okay, great. Again, thank you everyone who attended. You can stay or not for the remainder of the meeting but crystal. Thank you. Thank you for for orchestrating this and

[65:03] Really appreciate it. Hope this moves moves forward swiftly as as many homeowners are are hoping Thank you. Great. Thank you. Crystal. Thank you. You too. Bye. Thank you. Have a good night. All right. I went by much faster than I thought it was going to. So that's kind of nice. Um, We'll move on to public participation ahead of schedule and it looks like someone's injured the waiting room. Corey. Are you going to let them in. Yep, they just came in. Okay, great. So, um, This is Where, where speakers can talk about anything. They are not confined to talk about any particular subject as was the case for the public hearing. So if you would like to speak during public participation, will you please raise

[66:01] Your hands. Oh, and we do not need interpretation for the rest of the meeting. Is that, is that correct, that's correct. Correct. Okay, perfect. Hi, Marina. Thank you. Very nice. You appreciate it, enjoy your evening. Bye. I'm okay. Perfect. So as I said, if you'd like to speak, would you be please raise your hand and You can Create see anyone raising their hand. I believe plane, how to raise your hand again. You're in the menu. You click on participants at the bottom. If you hover with your mouse. Look for your name in the participants list. You'll see two blue buttons. One of them says more And when you click on that, it should have the icon of the little hand that raises and I think participants have a different view than the hosts of the meeting.

[67:05] And That makes sense. If you're struggling to find where that's located. You can also just send me a chat. And that's in the menu as well at the bottom. Skip folks a second here. Maybe to find their hand if they want to speak. Okay. Surely it might also just be since early two, you may be able to just unmute them and ask them directly. Okay, that's true. I Think that might be the number for It is. That's a nice phone number and then Anna's new to the meeting. I think she just joined here a couple minutes ago. Oh. I'll ask to unmute and see if they'd like to speak. Thank you. Sorry, I don't have a comment. I was just late so meaning because I had the time. I'm sorry.

[68:04] Oh no, that's fine. Just wanted to make sure that if you wanted to speak, you can. Okay. Okay, of course, thanks for coming. Okay, so I don't think we have any speakers. Okay, great. We can move on to the Approval of Minutes from December 16 2020. Are there any Change. Are there any changes. Yet, Judy. Go ahead. Let's have a little tiny correction. It says the Moon. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Judy. And it says that for the Joint Committee, we were presenting our reports to have and to HR. See, and it said December 2021 but we already presented it in December 2020. That's all it just the wrong date.

[69:00] Great. A curtain. Thanks, Jay. Okay, I have no other. I have no changes. Are there any other Changes. Okay. Seeing none. I will perform the motion to approve the minutes from December 16 2020 Seconded by Mason's hand and all in favor Right passes unanimously. Beautiful and cry. So we'll move on to matters from the board. And at first, I just wanted to say something to the board. Before we, we, you know, move on. Um,

[70:00] I've been thinking a lot About you know the the condition of our country in our world right now and you know as violence and strife and division ensue across the country. There lies great potential in this board for meaningful and positive local change here and the power that each of you hold You know as board members is, I think, more than More than, you know, it's more than I know, and certainly more than we've realized and, you know, while our, our role here entails advising city council developing and recommending policy solutions as we just did. The potential of this board to effect. positive change is immense in our, in our community and, you know, if I do anything as chair here.

[71:01] My hope is to infuse this body. This group of people with energy and empathy and sense of responsibility. I, I hope that you all recognize the responsibility that You have here, you know, housing is so important. It's the foundation for life for emotional and physical health for child development, economic mobility and so much more. Um, my, my hope is that you harness this power as a member of this board, you know, towards you know positively impactful end And I urge you to, you know, meditate on this. This power and, you know, consider how you're using it, you know, not not using your power here to advance advanced Justin equitable and positive change would not only be just doing a disservice to yourself. To your own potential as a leader.

[72:03] But also, and more importantly, to the city and to this community. So I'm help people, you know, we're here to help people and help people who need it, have empathy and you know that may sound like a platitude but You know all all positive change begins with empathy and that's just something I've been thinking about and I just want to share that with you all, and So just want to put it out there. Um, okay, we can move on. Um, to committee and project liaison reports. So Judy, I wanted to turn it over to you. Do you have any updates or anything you'd like to share Well, we made our presentation to have, you know, I'm a recent report to have HR see had their Porco there we've sent it to Council last week and

[73:07] But we have disbanded. As far as having any more meetings, we're done with that will answer individual questions that people have, or that Council. May have and we've had some questions come to us from council and but the one thing I wanted to discuss is either now or that you perhaps set aside a meeting. As an agenda point in the future is what does have what to do about people who are an housed in Boulder and in my opinion from having spent all that time in in that committee. An oversight and oversight committee is something that I think is still lacking and still need it and what the county is doing to the best we could find out and we talked to people in the county about it for quite some time. We had a specific meeting with them.

[74:05] It's fine, but it doesn't really cover the things we're interested in, and you know I think HR is going to do with HR is going to do about unhappiest issues. I think safe parking either will happen or is happening. I think there's promise for tiny homes, perhaps encampments There's certainly a need for more data collection, but the oversight committee is something that's really sorely lacking. And you know, it's up to you if you guys want to take it up or not. Yesterday, Their comments. I'm thinking But Are there any Comments from others.

[75:01] Judy, maybe you can Expand upon what your hope what your hopes are sorry sorry if I if I missed something, but I'm like how, what would you like to see moving forward. Oh, you're muted. I I incorrectly thought I had muted. Um, It's really not up to me because this is one of my last couple of meetings because I time off the board. But I think that it's a topic of the enhanced in Boulder is huge and of great importance to us to that to have And we had this whole list of recommendations and on the committee, since we knew we couldn't do everything we looked at the ones that we thought were perhaps most doable, or that didn't cost the city money, since they had put that

[76:01] Request upon us that there was no point in doing anything that would cost the city money. So I think there are still things that need looking at. And I think there are people out there who Need help and I think there are sensible solutions out there to enhance housing first that don't contradict housing first that that help provide Transitional options for people into permanently affordable housing. So yeah, I hope you know my only hope is that have keeps up on the issue in whatever way had as a group wants to do so. Okay, yeah, um, Have you gotten a sense From the other members on HR. See, but what what topics they are interested in looking at Or Like yeah Well, what they're most interested in now is the most pressing thing for them. I think right now is the language of not saying that people

[77:08] Who don't use a shelter or shelter resistant because that sounds like they just refuse to go to the shelter. It's that they can't For one reason or another, and they object to to the wording which does change the orientation behind everything so There are people who don't use the shelter, who are homeless because they don't want to be split from their families or they don't want to. They don't have any place to put their car and it's the only thing they have left in the world. Or they're Not separated from their beloved pet or they have Things like PTSD that prohibit them from being in a congregate situation. So I think that's their interests of course isn't as much on housing. As in other kinds of services ours, of course, seems more natural, like when we talked about it before it led to jock and Terry pursuing tiny homes in a more broad sense, which I think is great, but I just hope the House population isn't forgotten on half

[78:15] Now, absolutely. Um, So it sounds like HR see they're looking kind of more semantically at the at the intent behind the language used Is that right Yeah, but they're pretty active and very interested in it so it could change all the time, they could Okay. Well, you know, what would I want to open it up to the board to see and Judy. I mean, you've, you've been on the committee for a while and omission was on it for a bit. So where what, where do we want to do moving forward, right, these issues aren't going away. Just because we have a vaccine. Right. They've only been exhausted. These issues have only been exacerbated by the pandemic and you know our worth our continual exploration and attention so

[79:04] Um, how would how would how would the board like to move forward. We don't. Maybe we don't have to sign now but you know we don't meet for another month so You know, what do we want to do with with, you know, the momentum behind you know this committee is there another you know is any other. Is there any interest you know From another member of the board to delve into it, you know, Judy. I know you're gone in March. And it would be a shame for that to go away. It's definitely been you know it's offered rich you know conversation and lots of substance. So let me get some thoughts if there are any Yes, we can think about it, you can think about it, if there are no comments right now.

[80:01] We can always revisit it You know if later in the meeting, you have a revelation and you can just speak up and We can talk about it, but Okay. Then I'll move on. I'm Judy. Are you good with that. Okay. And then I'm going to move on to Jack Terry and Danny, I, I want to hear about where you'd like to take this committee, you know, last meeting the conversation was less about tiny homes that moved away from tiny homes and towards Towards you know the conversation of, you know, at us and you know that's that's fine. It's just not the intent of this committee. And that's, you know, again, that's fine. I just want to get a sense of where you want to put your energy in researching investigating and discuss and discussions so um

[81:08] Yeah, maybe you guys can can speak to that or what you want to do. Jack. Go ahead. You took the words right out of my mouth. That's one of the things I Wanted to bring up is, you know, I don't think a lot happened over the by way of our committee over the holidays, other than it feels like. And I think I shared some emails with Jackie that new type of tiny home. Is popping up everywhere pre made ones. They'll deliver in their backyard. They're different countries. There's just so many options out there and it seems like there's more and more every day. Housing Affordability in our country, not just in Boulder, it's getting more and more out of reach. So the tiny home movement, I think, is and I'm talking fixed foundation tiny homes.

[82:04] Is is picking up steam it seems like from everything that I'm seeing and articles and reading and all that kind of stuff. So that's great. In my opinion, I think that's really good. That there are more options that are out there by way of manufacturers people that are willing to deliver them and set them up. More competition drives prices down. So I think that's all very good as far as we're very macro level now. Now, how do we bring that to Boulder and and get more of them in place. How do we get more rooftops in Boulder. By way of fixed foundation tiny homes. I think, Jay. In our last meeting. There was a I think I remember you mentioning that there there had been a memo or something that had outlined the hurdles are the biggest obstacles to getting more Will call me to use tiny homes. I think we're kind of using those two terms and honestly at this point. I think that would be good to look at that.

[83:03] Just so we understand you know what somebody else the legwork somebody else's go already as far as the obstacles for putting more tiny homes in our community. But I agree with you, Charlotte, what, what can we do as a board. To to help facilitate this help moving forward. Is it just a recommendation and maybe just more question for Jay, I don't know. But is it just a recommendation to city council saying, hey, we need to loosen up these regulations or we need to make the regulations or no, we need to do something. To allow more edu slash tiny homes that our community. But I agree with you that what can we get done this year to help make that happen. And I don't have the answer, necessarily, but Again, encouraged by so many different choices in the marketplace. So many different options. Big, small modern contemporary traditional two story one story, you name it, it's out there and then pricing isn't crazy on so I'll stop with that.

[84:05] But that's kind of my update on that level. Mm hmm. Amazing job of like a kind of a comment on on Terry or Because jack jack was after Terry, but if you have something to comment on, I want to let you Comment. He asked a bunch of great questions and Sarah's on planning board. Probably know what are hurdles are and could speak to it. This is true. Doesn't make sense jack for you to speak. Next, and that, do you have some like something to build upon, and then, you know, we can ask Sarah to elaborate on Yeah, I can go ahead and and add in Kind of where I'm at. It's kind of following up with Terry You know, the question is, like, Where can we go, what might we be able to do and I agree this you know this kind of shifted from a tiny home focus to this greater kind of

[85:10] edu question for me because one of the pieces here, I think, I think, Terry agrees with this one is that it's like, how can we increase the acquisition rate for at us within the city of Boulder. Terry's been mentioning, and I got numbers. Jay, thanks for sending those those numbers to me. Oh, and Jay, on the side, it might be great if you just sent that Report that you sent me today from years back to everybody. That'd be good because it Kind of refreshes what we did. In the lead up when that have was first kind of getting to work, but there are, and by some numbers that I got from Jay Today, there are some

[86:00] 12,000 almost 12,500 properties that have the potential for an ad you on them within the city right now just roughly where maybe around 3% of those. I think that have already some 400 That have an ad you permitted. And so how do we increase the kind of acquisition rate for for at us and I kind of emceeing three things. This is what's come up. I sent you guys this little brief. Document that I've been putting together. And it basically breaks it down into a couple of things though. I think one of the first ones is the funding and We haven't yet followed up with the discussion last time about looking at funding and You know, what is it cost for a door for an affordable housing door within the city and can aid us really help in that respect.

[87:08] Right now we're spending our funds and other places, but doesn't maybe make sense to look at those funds. going towards supporting more at us being built in some way. So that was the one thing I think is worth looking at is just how we're going to look at funding it there's a couple things that I have over the last two months, I've been looking into it. There are interesting funding mechanisms that exist in the private sector that I'm finding that are Simply ways to get funding because it's, there's a little bit of a problem in funding and at you. With the current structures for mortgages, unless you have the ability to just go in for a he lock goes, there's problems to get funding for another way so that starts to limit the pool already. And one of those ways that was really interesting is Companies that simply

[88:00] sign on to part of the equity in your home. And these are some pretty huge structures actually financially. That are in the market and they're buying all over the country into people's homes so that instead of having to get a standard loan and pay a monthly payment on it. You're just saying, hey, at the end of the day when I sell my property. I will I'll give you X percentage for you paying me that percentage in cash now an equivalent percentage. So they record they realize the the Appreciation of coffee over time. And you know, that's just one interesting thing that's happening out there around this. So, You can help people fund a to use. And that's one of their focus areas. The other one that I found is in Boston and La in Napa. And I think it's happening in other places. Also, They are putting together programs that are public or public private partnerships that are providing funding.

[89:07] For at us specifically and these funding mechanisms are usually zero interest and paid back In a variety of ways, but usually pay back upon sale of the house. And So that's another thing I think we could look at and start to discuss this is kind of similar to what we're doing with the middle income. downpayment assistance, it would be kind of an equivalent and maybe a parallel program to that that could be looked at. So those are some of the financing options that I see that might be out there. The other piece that I've started looking into and actually just before the meeting. I did get an email back from will birchfield who is the building. Head building official, the city of Boulder regarding the possibility of creating

[90:05] Pre approved construction documents for people who want to put an ad you in their backyard. And that's just one piece that I think we could look at trying to move forward and will is he's looked into it to a certain degree, we know we have problems with PhDs because they have limitations on ad us potentially within the city. So some of these lots that we see as As could have an ad you they can from the city's perspective, but they can't because they're These plan developments which have rules limiting such things. So there are other limitations, but he's looking at the ability of the city to use some sort of a pre approved plan set That a homeowner could save the architectural fees and that would also significantly shorten the timeline for people to certain degree. So that was one of the one of the pieces.

[91:07] That ties in a little bit to cost the other one would be to look into fee waivers for the city. For the city saying we will waive fees if you know based on affordability for that unit. One thing that's really interesting in the document. I can't remember which document. It is. It's either the one Jay sent me today or the Turner center report that was linked to the PDF that I sent out to you guys were And I think this came from UK actually also that they're seeing that any edu whether it's deeded permanently affordable or not, on average, rents at a significantly discounted rate. So we might want to look at the whole concept of permanently affordably deeded and how we have engaged with that because it seems like it's a win either way.

[92:04] But So the standard pre approved plans fee waivers and then another piece that goes along with the pre approved plans. It's just the permitting process and streamlining it And Charlotte, you can probably speak to this a little bit, but We have a program right now for getting an ad you that requires you to first do the application process, even though they are effectively by right under certain You know conditions in these areas. And that's a lengthy process that you go through and then after that process. Then you submit your building plans for building permit approval and My perspective on that is that one thing we might look at is streamline that process and putting them, you know, kind of hand in glove so that We take some of the time off the plate and also the effort and cost for homeowners. So that was kind of a permanent piece of it. And the final piece and this is a place where

[93:08] I know Terry and I still still diverge somewhat, but I'm still looking into the mobile tiny home and I'm still asking the question why mobile tiny homes are not Considered as any other tiny home or at you. And I put some of those realities of the code down on that document that I sent out to you guys, but basically mobile homes are managed under an existing code, the Key reality here is that the city's code and the manufactured housing code all address what has to happen to put a tough a home of a manufactured home of any size on a pad. So the question is, if the city could come to

[94:01] Amend are at you ordinance in such a way that it simply says Homeowners can create pads on their property for a to use of a certain or or four mobile at us as I call them, ma to use of a certain square footage. And I think that it's worth Looking at that square footage number Because I don't know that we want to say, hey, let's start dropping you know thousand square foot. Structures in the backyard, just because they qualify as a mobile a view. So those are kind of the three areas that I see where we could push forward and You know, I think, I think our committee could continue to work on on those areas as each of us has an interest. So anyway, I would say just look at that piece that that document that I threw out there today. There's some great links to the backyard home project.

[95:03] And unison. You can check out. They are in there. I don't have a link to them, but you can just I think Google of online or I'll send the link out And The, the main piece that I've seen from all of this that I think we need to keep pushing on is we can see. And again, this is from that Turner center report, you can see that at you numbers for permitting Do about what's been happening in Boulder. Once you make them legal and that the key thing that increases the number of at us appears to be financial relief in some form or another. And once you get financial relief that really starts to increase the numbers so In any one of these ways if we could get some some financial relief, that'd be great. And for me the mobile at us is just a matter of It provides financial relief to the homeowner because they don't have to put as much into it and it gives an equity stake

[96:05] You know, we can argue about how good it is. But I think that the people who own those those tiny homes on wheels would feel that they have an equity stake in that and it gives them a piece of the pie, so to speak. So that's it for my side. Thanks Chuck was a lot of great stuff. No, I wanted to open it up because I, you know, Sarah, you're here from planning for maybe you can speak to some of the questions raised, and then I have some questions for you within the context of what Terry in and jack just spoke about Well I, I haven't looked at at you regs for a while. So I'm speaking from my memory. That I think the the reason my recollection is at the reason why mobile at mobile tiny homes are not

[97:03] Currently allowed in the city is that the design and construction engineers of the city, specifically requested. That Tiny if there were to be tiny homes approved for use in Boulder, that they would have to be on fixed foundations and that fixed foundation requirement was to ensure that those homes met livability standards and that the city could go in and A valid evaluate the livability of those particular dwelling units. That's my recollection. Jay, maybe I'm maybe I am recollecting incorrectly, but I mean I wouldn't disagree with what you just said it wasn't necessarily an explicit part of the conversation during the new update If we didn't come up. I mean, it was out of scope, if it did come up Right, but it came up, it did come up through the just when I can't remember the gentleman's name who who brings us the design and construction standards, but it was a discussion during that process was that separate from the the or at you ordinance. Okay.

[98:18] Yes, it wasn't part of that so Yeah, so, or no, no. So, so when so Ontario brought up the fixed foundation At you framing. I think that's probably the I would suggest that that's the more fruitful path to go on. Then to try to Change the design and construction standards that the city uses yeah sorry jack jack No, that's okay sir, I just wanted to jump in because I think I have same a similar recollection, actually, that at the point in time when we were working on this that The fixed foundation piece was an important part. But I think one of the reasons in the livability standards. This was prior to Appendix Q being adopted.

[99:08] Which Appendix Q details. So it brings the IRC. It brings tiny homes into compliance with the international residential code. And I think that's where most of that conflict was and so I think that now there's really almost no conflict there any that I've seen. I've dug into the code a fair bit and that's my point where I think it's just an old hiccup basically Which is potentially limiting the, the use of of units that are already constructed people already own and And could potentially be put to use. So I think between appendix E, which is the mobile home stuff. I think if I get that right, and Appendix Q which is the tiny home stuff really all it comes to is, and this would be the the zoning piece of it would be the city, saying, hey,

[100:06] We can allow effectively a mobile home pad. In these zoning areas are on these types of lots In order to support that type of structure. So that's an interesting idea. I think just from I think there I think you'd have to really think through what it would mean to extend mobile homes homes zoning to all the others or whatever other zones in the city that you might want to extend it to, given that the city's zoning for mobile homes is permanent, they they they permanently zone. The mobile home zones for mobile for manufactured home neighborhoods. Precisely so that that land could not get sold out from under the residents, whose homes are sitting on someone else's land. So I think you'd have it would

[101:04] I don't know what the and i don't know what the Solution to that would be, but I think it could be a could be a challenge to extend Allowing mobile home zoning in non mobile home zones. I just think it might create a situation that the city might not want to create Yeah. Maybe, maybe you need a new zone or something. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think that I'm I may have misspoke on or or I didn't speak clearly. I don't think that that we would do what you're saying because I agree that's all kinds of I think potential issues there. I think that we would just allow within those zones, the creation of a pad. In other words, you don't have to bring all the other pieces of the mobile home. regulatory structure into play. But you would allow creation of a pad and then you would simply require

[102:05] That those people would meet the essentially it's that the tie down and foundation requirements of the mobile home. Struck me Yeah, I could see some nice This is the place that needs some kind of glitch. I could see some other challenges. I mean not saying it's a good idea or bad idea, but I can see some other challenges that have to do with The parking requirements that go along with the US with a Design design requirements and my recollection of the last time we had the conversation at planning board about the design of AT US. THEY WERE city. The staff requested. That request that they propose some changes in the design of at us.

[103:00] I think, in order to allow more some maybe some more creativity. I can't really remember what the motive was, but I think with a you'd have to just explore whether or not tiny homes on wheels meet the design requirements. And I have no idea whether they do or not. Parking I think is an issue in the sense, I don't mean that it means that there's an additional car in the neighborhood, but rather the way the ad you regs are written as I remember, is There are parking requirements off street parking requirements for each for an addition for an ad you on your property and tiny home on wheels. They're almost by definition, there's got to be a an automobile or some sort of wheeled vehicle that is associated with it. And I'm not sure how a pad versus

[104:00] A unit that has a parking lot a parking space attached to it or next to it. I just think there's a lot of questions that would have to be explored. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I just think that it's I think it's probably worth going down, as I see it. I'd love to talk to you. Further about this or we can have some emails, but I think we can meet all the requirements as they currently exist. I don't think there's any need to shift those including the parking stuff, but that's probably an ongoing discussion for sure. Awesome, Danny. You had your hand up a while ago, did you have a comment. Yeah, I just, I think that a lot of this. I mean in terms of, I mean, we make sure that we define this specifically is not a mobile home just because it's mobile in nature doesn't mean mobile home. You know, there's a lot of things you can do by by legislative regular regulatory theater here to really kind of structure something so that you don't run into these issues.

[105:02] And and i think you know we've always talked about have a regulatory framework really something that can be looked at in terms of a catalyzing You know, the opportunity to have more, you know, affordable housing to begin with. And this absolutely being something as both Tyrion jock. Really playing it out. That's, that's remarkably affordable, relatively speaking to everything else we're looking at and affordable in terms of being able to get something like essentially a new unit. And get it erected get it put in place. Um, I think a lot of these things. There's a lot of ways to do it, just in terms of how you define things and how you draft some regulations. to incentivize it if that's the route that we want to go. And I think it absolutely merits exploration both uh you know The mobile tiny home in the fixed tiny home.

[106:00] Again, I made this point, a few months ago, but just based on the open house that we had a lot of the comments and the fact that a lot of people were really focused on the mobile tiny home. But, uh, so I really feel, you know, again, that this is something where whatever regulatory Obstacles, are, are there a lot of ways that we can kind of navigate around. They're pretty adroitly without having to Say, well it doesn't meet the rags and just kind of give up on it because anything we could do in this regard, I think it'd be terrific. And you know the ad you um I think the ad you Avenue is really the way to try to get So, Sorry about that. My computer is connected to my phone. Anyhow, That's, that's my point. So, and I think that's definitely something that we can explore and readers know some potential fruit there down the road if we Know for sure. Mason you've had your hand up. For a while,

[107:02] Back. Did you look at the language of how lions did it. I'm not sure that it's a overlay. But, um, but they did not change their land use code so that might be something to look into and And Sarah had said something about the car cars with tiny houses. Most of the individuals. I know a tiny houses on wheels actually either rent a U Haul to move it because they don't want to move it that often or There's a service that moves tiny houses around so it is something you know those kinds of things would be great. Like what you're talking about, make sure that we Don't make automate medically make those assumptions when we're looking at all of the questions that would be around. tiny houses on wheels. Mm hmm. Jay, you

[108:00] I was just going to suggest. I mean, one of the one of the big house for me from the listening session on tiny homes is just that, you know, I, what is the difference between a tiny home on wheels versus a detached edu. Ones on wheels once on a fixed foundation, you can put skirting around the wheels and you know some of the images we saw you wouldn't be able to tell the press. So that's where I was like, Well, okay. That makes sense to me. And if you think about a property owner who may not want to put that edu or an investment in a fixed foundation. They may only want it for a short period of time. And it allows for that sort of the person that owns it, who's looking for a place to park it and opportunities. So anyway, that was Yeah, that was the big takeaway from the listening session. I think that's just important to keep in mind. That's it. Yeah, definitely. A lot of my clients here in Colorado California asked all the time. Can I move it. Can I move it and it's, you know,

[109:03] The company I work at we do you know fixed foundations, but that is definitely in a want you know folks want to bring that with them so that they can house, you know, an aging parents and then a child. So that is really interesting to consider. I'm jack I was going to say, just to that point, Charlotte also The foundational requirements and the mobile aspect doesn't necessarily even mean wheels. As you're saying you could take a one of your products, one of the small ones, or one of the larger ones, and you can crane it and lifted over house, um, Well, I mean, if it was designed properly for that right maybe not what you're building right now, but there are companies that are doing that and they're they're driving them up on a flatbed and they're creating them and putting them in and then you can bolt them to a foundation It's really a question of how do we anchor these things down.

[110:03] That was one of The city's the building officials concerns you know they didn't want these things they didn't just want a wheeled unit just parked there and then hundred and 60 mile per hour. Gusts come along tip it over so it's I think it's a pretty minimal left, quite honestly. Yeah. Yeah, Mason. Which again blissful tiny homes in Lyons went through the whole certification for tonight. And it's the same price date company that certifies the whole tiny house industry for communities interested in having them and i i don't know of in all the years as simplicities been in operation of going over Search campaign to be created as well. Mm hmm. Yeah, Terry.

[111:02] I think all those are great comments and good input. So, so I kind of go back to where I started was how do we how do we move this forward, how do we see if the city is willing to help finance. Some of these tiny homes, if they were Permanently affordable. How do we see if we can get some pre approved plans. For six or seven different choices. So, the proof of entitlement process and permitting process is more streamlined the financing side. Is to me. I think there's a lot of private people banks and whatnot. That will find that sees. If you look at the big round of the ground developing numbers. If a tiny home even cost on a fixed foundation costs even $100,000 which I'm very confident for a couple 300 square feet. You could put a foundation in and build one even stick frame that pre made For $100,000 even if you borrowed all money to do that. And I think people in Boulder have

[112:01] Borrowing power more than most and equity in their homes, more than most. So even if you got a lock or something along those lines. And it was it was $100,000 which is high. That's a high enough for 300 square foot backyard tiny home. The payment on that is 400 bucks and I, I'm very confident that you will read these two people in need for say $1,000 to find a place to live a bullet for $1,000 a month. That's wrong place Mosher lungs. Yes, it may be in somebody's backyard. But you know that's that's the greatest deal in town right for the renter, and then for the homeowner that owns it, they're getting a Very good return on their investment. So I think the money is there. To me, it's more getting it approved getting it permitted and getting a built In. So how do we take. How do we take where we are and get to where we can advise or suggest or

[113:04] Yeah, we do. To the Council to say, hey, we need to allow more do we need to make the regulations easier. We need to make the entitlement faster. We need to feel that's what we need to do. How do we do that and maybe it's a question for Jen. I don't know. Yeah, I, I'm really interested in the, the idea of pre approved plan and I wanted to know if planning board has ever had discussion or like explored that idea of like some or if that's even in the purview of planning board, Sarah. I'm not sure. The only time that I know of that planning board has done something in the in the in the category of pre approved would have been our form based code work over it, the transit village. And I, you know, design advisory board of the folks who do the design stuff. So you probably have to end up talking to them, but I, I would think that there'd be some

[114:09] While that there have to be a balance between, you know, the idea of some handful of a pre approved designs and the desire to make sure that Neighborhoods don't become don't end up looking like every like there's a design aesthetic that not in every neighborhood, and it's not perfect at all, but If you end up with Five edu styles and they're in every backyard and and of course I'm exaggerating here, but, um, it could just, it might not be exactly what dab or the city exactly wants. So I think it's something to think through Yeah. I remember what Up. Here, here's Here's I understand you're saying and completely agree with you. We don't want six tiny home exteriors in there. And every backyard. Nobody wants that.

[115:07] I think maybe the chalk is saying if he's not as. What I'm saying is, maybe it's not how it looks right. It's not the the The architectural look on the outside, but it's a if you provide a 10 by 20 foundation to stories, yada, yada. And you lay out basic criteria, a little bit like from a scope. You just create you provide the criteria saying if you deliver this if you submit this Irrespective of if the outside has a flat roof or pitch you know you can you can play with the way it looks. But the bulk of it. The foundation of it, the square footage of it all, that can be sort of streamline as far as pre approved goes So it's not necessarily just, okay, we have a friend, you know. Gable roof, and it's got the asphalt shingles and that's it. Yeah, I'm saying once thinking when you say pre approved shock is is we have a foundation size right pick the number 12 by 20. I don't know what it is we have

[116:10] Materials that are on the outside, left side or whatever it is, if you provide this if you submit this, it's going to get approved. There's no major back and forth is I think what what I'm thinking. You're saying jack. But if I'm putting words in your mouth, then that's what I'm saying. I think Terry and and Sarah, it's a little bit of both. Because there's there's two aspects. One is the approval of the structure. And I think that's what you're alluding to a little bit and and that is one of the things that I want to You know, streamline but the other piece of it is the cost to the homeowner and and streamlining, it takes some of that cost out. That's one of the slices. But another slice is the cost to have myself or Charlotte, or someone else actually take the time

[117:08] To do that design for your property and that's probably the greater cost quite honestly So I'm looking at trying to hit both of those. To push a little bit back on. Oh, if we only have these six and I could say, why have six. You know, it's We could have 20 or 30 of these different design styles. We don't even have to necessarily specify cladding so it's going, you know, we could push it a little bit towards that more form based situation. But but i i got i had a little smile because I said, Well, you know, if we do end up with these and everybody's yard then everybody wants them and that's great. That's The neighbor's yard because they all chose it. So if we can get to that point, I don't think we'll have a problem with the fact that they're all that we have a limited set of plans.

[118:06] With ality is we aren't going to get to that point, they're going to be randomly and rarified in their, in their Position around the city. So I don't know that that's really a viable or a valid kind of argument against doing this, but I do recognize that kind of overall concern. We don't want to turn into, you know, left in a bunch of little boxes that all look exactly the same, and And put it together like that so Anyway, I think there's lots to discuss and all of these things, and I would like to just see us. The board thinks it's worthwhile just continue on the path of trying to define more clearly what the potential spaces for change are and and then see how as Terry saying how we go ahead and move those forward. Jack. I'm wondering if there's a group of potential like for collaboration, you know, Sarah mentioned the design advisory board you know which group of people, would it be for us to

[119:11] You know actually talk about like the pragmatics of this and like what what is possible. Um, I'm not sure that's the design advisory board. I mean, they were. I was just thinking about how he was two years ago now for the aesthetic regulations were at us. We're loosened right Which is amazing. So we don't want a bunch of identical boxes for sure. You know what we don't have become like Levittown of at us. But that's, that's a side point, Judy, did you have a comment. Yes. I was just wondering about the potential of a next step, possibly being for Jacques end or Terry To get some input and possibly an ally, which would make it way more possible within the planning department.

[120:03] Because they have really good ideas they know the regulations, they know what's possible and not and you could discuss you speak their language, you know, I'm just wondering about that as a possibility. Cheers We are you. Are you gonna lie. I've offered I think that we, we made an attempt at the end of last meeting. And we didn't quite put that together yet. So yeah, I would like to see us. I'd like to see us try to do that. And, Jay. I'm trying to find some time here in the next couple of weeks. It's good. For input on it. Absolutely. I think one of the questions. Just real quick, one of the questions that kind of sidetracked. That was we also brought Danny into the mix. And then I had a question. If that was problematic because of our numbers.

[121:04] Having the three of us in the meeting with Jay and it may just need to be two of us in some way. So we'll just I think just sort that out. And then, and then we can we can put some together, that'd be great. And Charlotte, to your point, I definitely think that obviously we need to speak with somebody and Sarah, maybe you have some suggestions for us. You know, to get someone on planning board also who could help us kind of wrap our heads around what the speed bumps are from that side as well. Hey, We can't have so many people that we of course I'm not sure if corners three or four j under the bylaws. But if we have three of us we can all meet together. It. Sorry. So we should probably start with just two. Yeah, and all alternate depending on the topic, maybe making any decisions.

[122:03] Yes. I'm shocked. I'm happy to sit down or talk with you via zoom or have a Socially distant coffee or something. I'd like to just suggest one other since you guys are talking about what else this you all could be focusing on. I don't know how closely you read the planning boards letter to city council. But one of the things we're very interested in is the Council moving forward on On the use table update and in the one of our big areas of interest is transforming our old Worn out shopping areas which are mostly zone VC one and VC to not exclusively into A housing oriented neighborhood centers sort of think think think along the lines of, of

[123:05] Holiday so human scale very diverse types of housing, a little higher density a lot that are and and are incorporated with the kind of shopping areas that Area that I'm the neighborhood center and the surrounding neighborhoods need. And I think that if we could move that forward a You'd see the opportunity for a lot more dwelling units to come online that are in a neighborhood for me that that create also create new neighborhoods. So if that was something that it would be great if that was something you all could turn your attention to as well because I do think it would help advance the housing agenda. Yes, yeah. Oh Jay. That was actually one of the questions I had

[124:01] We're kind of just to get an update. Maybe it next meeting on where the process stands, I noticed that on the city website it says that it's It's, it's kind of gotten slowed down by coven They said, check on track, but then next to it. It said that the impact from coven was high and things weren't moving. I think if I looked at it correctly. So I'm that was one of the things that I was looking at maybe we can get kind of updated on And I think that came out of my work on this stuff with the EU tiny home thing and just along those lines. Exactly. Sarah was where do we stand on the use table updates. Just that it's a work plan, which we'll talk about two items. Go. Thank you. Some Are there any other comments about this conversation I'm I'm I'm

[125:02] I'm potentially interested in hearing more about this group is it. Are you are you all leaning towards focusing it seems like you're in an exploration phase, you know, at us and tiny homes. So I don't want to put parameters at all, but just something. Something to think about, you know, tiny home. This began is like a tiny home tiny home such tiny home villages, you know, Investigative group and and now it's in a different direction. So I'm fine with that. But, um, it's just something to think about. And the and the group, the community that that serves probably different. So, Yeah, to bring that to bring that back Charlotte. I do agree we part of the initial discussion. I think some of that was based on are predicated on Sam Weaver's comments at some point somewhere about finding land for tiny home village.

[126:06] And You know, maybe we should kind of redirect a little bit of energy back towards looking at that as well. So, Yeah, Mason. Yet in conjunction with what shocks just saying, is to bring it back full loop is The original conversation around tiny houses was with the unhealthy 2020 plan. Identifying the fact that In our coordinated entry trajectory, what was happening is that individuals who Were coming off of being on housed going into temporary Hauser being integrated into stable apartment communities were struggling with The new lifestyle or the new situation that we're in. And what we realized was that there was a whole

[127:05] huge need for transitional living so tiny houses as transitional living creating a new for individuals who we're dealing with recovery at, you know, as we know, is not easy. So, throwing somebody who's in recovery and coming off the streets into a stable home environment. Disrupt disrupt st can sometimes disrupt not only the apartment complex, but the individual themselves. However, taking the baby step into a transitional living situation such as tiny houses are providing In communities with like minded individuals was creating more of a success ramp, then So that's originally how tiny houses, you know, we were talking about with the development from the listening session out in long month that Judy had brought in as well. That's why I don't want us to forget about that portion of the population that desperately needs.

[128:02] Attention. Yeah, exactly. And so that's why you know The focus on at us is great. You like it. Love it. We just have to think about, you know, who is this serving. Who is that who are those projects serving And, you know, who, who are we serving by, you know, investing time and energy into What a tiny home village in in Boulder could look like. So, um, Yeah, we don't have to dwell on it anymore. I just wanted to bring it up. So, yeah. Cool. Are there any other Comments on this sounds like there's some action items and jock and Terry, I can follow up with you to individually or just one if you actually

[129:00] Just one of you. I'm cool. I'm gonna move on to The march 31 housing listening session. And so I have done some work on this first. So I'll just thank God for putting me in touch with some folks at EPA Including Julie van de Mellon and individuals involved in the participatory advisory council at Alpha, um, there was discussion at our last meeting about having those individuals come to the meeting to, you know, share their experiences. So I'm really excited about that. And I wanted structured this conversation in two different parts The first discussion, the structure of this this event. And then the second part outreach.

[130:04] So in terms of the structure and last year when we were discussing a listening session is it sa the last year I recall that there was a general consensus around the session. Being kind of an open forum for individuals to Not only share their experiences, their grievances. But, you know, and discuss like situation. What's working, what's not working. So that would, that was kind of the, I think that was what we all liked and then afterwards, board members could ask questions as they see fit, maybe there would be a presentation, I'm from the City Housing and Human Services. As well as fo I know that you are interested in giving a presentation and, you know, the question becomes, do we want to have those at the beginning or at the end and you know those presentations from the city and then and then from from AFA

[131:11] So I wanted to open it up and see where people were with this. But the planning of this and what you all thought would be the best way to structure this event. I've given it a thought. But I wanted to hear from from all of you. JULIET It's it's a virtual right Yep. So I think one of the MOST MEANINGFUL THINGS. I think we can do is help people solve their insecurities housing insecurity problems and connect them with resources and sometimes people may be housing insecure. They may have some some issues going on and they don't know where to turn. So having Having a forum for people to learn about how they can solve their issues and connecting those people with resources would probably be the most impactful thing we could do for community members. And so I think that

[132:08] The city presenting The resources available and then connected, making sure we connect people if they have particular issues, either. Together or offline to be discreet and if people want to share comments. I think that's fine. But I think really want to what we want to do is solve problems solve the saw the housing and security problems were connect people to resources. Yeah. Def excuse me weird. I'm definitely I I think, as well as how, you know, connecting people with, you know, solutions. This is a great opportunity for us to just hear, hear the community hear from our neighbors here from individuals who may not, you know, speak at Council meetings or share their experiences. Right, so You know, we're kind of filter not filtering per se, but just taking this all in as a way of processing it and then you know this might inform something that we do down the road and recommend or advise to counsel, so

[133:09] I definitely want to be able to hear where, you know, here the experiences of people. Right. You know, they, for example, like the emails that we got from individuals and these Manufactured Housing Communities sharing their experiences that was absolutely invaluable and You know the ordinance made sense to me. But it was really it was a lot of color and context brought into that with those stories that were shared so Do we want to have that at the beginning or the the presentation or wait until the end. Would it make sense to you. Julia to have that at the beginning, potentially Like have that presentation first. I think the presentation first makes sense because if we advertise it as a an event where people can learn more about how to help solve their challenge challenges that they may be experiencing around pandemic related or other related housing insecurity, then we can

[134:06] Help them quickly at the beginning of the meeting. And then people can stay if they want to share their comments. specific situations afterwards. Okay. Okay, great. Judy and then Mason. I agree with Julia, that the presentation should be first. And I like the idea of having to have the city talk about resources. And the group from FF who wanted to speak, although they're inviting staff to attend the people who will be presenting will be their leadership group. So it's people who have Used the services of effort. So we'd be starting right out in a presentation. After the Human Services resources starting out with some people with lived experience. Using those services.

[135:02] Thanks, Judy Mason. Well, in the past, we've cracked the surface using the presentations in the beginning, and then we open it up for listening because we're a listening session. So it's definitely great to hear from people so that they can Potentially inform any of our work plan items. That's one of have have a mandate, so I'm sprinkling, a little bit of it all the way through. Definitely makes sense. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense to have those presentations at the beginning. Um, and, and Yeah, that sounds good to me. I, I, I am really interested in just giving people a place to speak, you know, where an official City Board, there's merit to, you know, us just listening to the experiences that you know people come forward with and so

[136:02] You know, really giving them space for that is that's important. So, That sounds good to me. Um, are there any other thoughts about the structure. You know how how things will happen during this this session. The, the technicalities besides the point. I'll, I'll sync up with, you know, Korean J on that. You know how the meeting will be run but Macro structure. Okay, I know that the tiny homes listening session in February was really successful I attended that it was awesome. I really wish we could do this in person. There was those is really awesome and you know so much came out of that. But this, this is what we have. And we'll just make do. And maybe this will give people who couldn't attend you know maybe mothers can attend this you know who have children, you know, people who wouldn't otherwise be able to attend in person can come so there's opportunity as well. Um,

[137:06] And then outreach. Um, this is just an idea. I have, you know, in addition, you know, of course, folks from fo will be here. I want to, in addition to a letter to the editor and you know collaboration with the The city's public relations and comms team to get the word out. I'm interested in potentially drafting like an outreach, a letter that outlines the intent of this session and calls for participation and send it to a variety of groups. I'm thinking YOU KNOW, NONPROFITS housing providers landlord groups. HOA HOA, whatever, just like a broad, broad variety of groups. You know, to get as much, you know, different perspective as possible.

[138:04] And in the past. I don't know if this was done, mate. But this is something that would just like make my life easier to draft the letter. That outlines the intent and of course when I'd like to do is draft it have it ready for next meeting, so that you all can we can all approve it. The language, etc. And then send it out. And I'd send it out. And I will. What I'll also do is I will have the letter to the editor. I actually it's not a letter to the editor. It's a, it's a, it's an opinion piece, I guess I want to draft that so that you can all look at that at our next meeting, so we can talk about it and then have it ready to send out So those are just more planning purposes me walking through that in my mental headspace but just at all. Sound good like to, you know, have this letter to God variety of groups.

[139:02] As well as the other like generic you know outreach planning strategies. Okay, because suggesting Charlotte. Yes. Um, so I I guess I wouldn't necessarily wait until the next meeting. I mean, the sooner that we draft something Yeah, the more beneficial will be Okay, yeah. Or lead time to we can give to our communications, folks. Okay and and also i mean i know you're an excellent writer, but if you want assistance in terms of how to, you know, best communicate this you know we can we can get our communications person to help Yeah, if, if I'm offering that. So if you just want to put a basic structure together, sort of, what is the purpose of the listening session. The overall structure and what we're hoping to you know get out of it. I think if you have that structure, I can share it with our communications person and he can help. Oh, okay, fine.

[140:03] So great. So what I'll do is I'm just going to create and kind of bullet points, you know, intent, you know, time intent, you know, Structure and I'm going to have Corey, send it out to everyone, much like a letter to council. Have you a look at it. And then before I meet with the comms team at the city. I'll just, you know, have the go ahead from all of you so that there's transparency, there That sounds great. I would love to meet with that person or people Yeah. And that works for me, too. So thank you. Yay planning. We were going to do this last year but you know things take time and things take time. So that's that. Are there any other comments or questions about the planning of the listening session. No. Okay.

[141:00] Okay, great. Um, I am wondering if it makes sense to actually move the agenda item that I posed at the beginning. Trying to think about what would make sense terms of discussion. Um, The reason why I'm pondering this is because it kind of Real it intersects with The Work Plan Review So I'm wondering, Jay. I'm wondering if we can just move that agenda item after to The conversation following or following the conversation about the work plan that's okay. We're okay so let's move to talk about the work plan which J. Jay, put together and apologies of y'all hearing voices I live in a 600 square foot apartment my partners on a call and the other room and our walls are thin so apologies there. You hear voices but okay you're sharing your screen. Perfect. Um,

[142:18] Do you want me to talk about this. So this is a tool that we have been using for a while, I guess. Just outlining next couple of meetings and sort of what's in the pipeline. In a kind of that was kind of fell off. Sort of our usual task and that's my bad. Just with the Panda and making everything priority shifting. But I think it's great that we're bringing it back. So everything is here and it's really kind of up to the chairs, and I think the there was a desire from the full board to actually have a voice and sort of what

[143:00] charting out our agendas in the future. So anyway, this is these are all the topics that I could think of in the chairs can think of, if you have anything to add or if you want to start populating the February and March meetings. We can do that to Jay, did you. Um, did you pull the Council work plan items from there. Council agenda committee meeting or a plant or where did. Where did you pull that from, like, where are you pulling all the content for the Council work plan items from Memory. We're gonna change. I mean, so sorry, the other caveat is we don't really know what councils priorities are going to be until after right and it changes every year. There's a whole new list of priorities, there are ongoing projects. And I think the the ongoing projects and initiatives.

[144:03] That sort of the list at the bottom. We know that stuff is will happen. We just don't know when. So that'll get plugged in later. But the upcoming items are sort of things. I think that we tried to identify that are unrelated to what councils priorities are. Right. So there was an interest in The long ago, sort of this legislative agenda or we did do that last year, didn't we, and we could do that again this year. There's also the discussion about member chaska and the entitlement process and trying to understand that a little bit better. Alpine balsam is coming up for rezoning so I know that's going to happen regardless of Councils priorities. So I think that would be of interest to this board. East boulder subcommittee plan. It's been slow, but it's still going along. And then there was discussion last time about the middle income housing strategy review and then we just brought up the US table. So that's kind of how its organized

[145:04] But things can move around. Does that that's probably more than what you're asking me Yeah, that's helpful. Um, Know that that that's helpful. That's, that's helpful. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, I'm thinking, but if their comments or questions to 2D I saw your hand go up. Yeah. Jay, thanks for doing that. That's really helpful and happy to see it. I think you can take the HR see have joint committee on the enhanced off because we're done with our work and not meeting anymore and also. My only request is that whenever Council does develop its housing work plan that we see it as soon as possible and see any changes because

[146:05] I would love it if have could give input a little earlier in the process that's been happening. And of course, this year's been crazy because of covert and all that. But I think that would be Helpful. Was a Great and their retreat is 23rd and 24th, I think. Okay, 22nd, 23rd. Okay. So we'll talk about the next meeting. Okay. Okay. Um, I mean maybe to dovetail with that for February. It would make sense to them. Look at Just where we stand on these projects and initiatives, just kind of enough a little update where they all are in the process. And then obviously that'll

[147:03] Be impacted potentially by the By councils retreat. Which is so we get on board with those I'd like to, I mean, I, I'm definitely interested in in US engaging with alpine balsam as it comes back around and yeah the sub community planning community benefit also Yeah. And just so you know, I'm the project manager for the rezoning of alpine balsam Oh, great. Benefit team. So, I mean, I know most of these projects. You know I'm peripherally involved with these folders stuff community plan. But I'll find out sort of where we are free for next month. Kind of in response to that, you know, as Council continues to look at these projects and initiatives.

[148:09] Are they You know, are they hoping, are they hoping to get input from our board when they asked for it or like we can talk about it and I'm that's that's fine but traditionally, they asked us You know, for our input on you know x, y, and z, then they they then they look at what we say right so It does that is that typically how the workflow happens right like there's certain things that we haven't been asked to look at. But we, you know, that do relate to housing, so I just want to know, do you anticipate us like Being you know asked to look at this stuff or

[149:01] No. Question is, I don't think you should be asking Council permission to review, something that has a direct relationship for to housing, I think you should just say we would like to. We'd like to hear about it, we'd like to provide input to counsel, counsel can still disregard it Right, right, that that Interest from this board to discuss tonight, and I will do my best to get, get it in front of you. Okay. And I think that I think we have to be clear that there should be a housing direct housing connection is sort of the sense I get And in that vein, I mean I think about to community benefit the first phase was all about housing phase two has nothing to do with housing. So, you know, just something so i mean i put it on there just because I want you to know what's happening with it, but It's probably not something That would come to you for recommendation.

[150:04] That's helpful. My next the next agenda item. Just so everyone knows kind of relates to that questions so We don't have to stop this conversation now, but are there any specific questions like things that Items that people want to bring forth or questions related to this work plan. I'm scrolling upside, Danny. Sorry. You know, it's like in a weird bar and type My own and um I just wanted to bring up to like that East boulder sub community plan. Yeah, we had talked about that last year it was really Pretty interesting because, I mean, it's really the only area of the whole city that essentially nobody lives in and I think it dovetails into A lot of the issues that we had when we started talking about the house in terms of those parking lots, and and and you know the available space there and that's office space. Now it's not being utilized, etc. So I just want to flag that because I think that that

[151:13] Can play a role in a lot of different things. And I think, I think it really kind of congealed with a lot of the things that were, you know, wrestling with over the past 12 months. And so I want to Be connected to that. Mm hmm. Jay, when do when do you know when they'll be just when Council will will be discussing discussing the east. East folder sub community plan. Next, or where they are with that process. I do not, but I will find out. So I put in February or March. So we'll see what sir Sorry, sorry. No, I don't know. I don't know when it's coming up. But, Danny. I just want you to be aware that planning board is very focused on those issues and trying very hard to make sure that the balance of protecting industrial zones.

[152:07] Is balanced with housing. Housing Opportunities and a housing affordability insofar as we can, given where the process is at this point. So I don't want you to think that we aren't Already very focused on trying to move forward on the issues that have concerns itself with when it comes to the east boulder sub community plan. Awesome. Okay. That's really great. Are you regularly discussing that I am at your meetings are just kind of as new things come up Know the city. So as with all boards and commissions. We respond, we are presented with material by city staff and are asked to respond. At that at that time to whatever the stage is that that initiative is at. So the sub community plan has been has come before us twice since I've been on the board. The

[153:07] Maybe three times. I can remember to maybe there was a third that I'm just not remembering and the, the, the, the first time it came before us actually the first time it came up for us was here is what we're doing. The second time was A. Here's an update. And here's what we have begun to sort of juggle. And the third time was Very recently, actually. And it was actually exploring sharing with us a new tool, a three dimensional tool that the city will be using to try to picture what the three different Ideas that the working group has put together what those three ideas might look like and asking for our input and a major part of our input from my recollection was

[154:00] So the three dimensional tool is great because it gives us all a visual but it's only as good as the inputs that are put in and what we really wanted to focus on was how, what could you, what could you tell us what could this tool. Tell us in terms of The the The tools that might produce housing that's more affordable meaning smaller lots more dense development. A fewer parking less parking like again it's it's a tool that's like, it's you. You put me in, you get sausage out. So it's what's the meat that's going in. And so we had a long conversation with lots of input from everybody on the planning board about What what we would like those inputs to look like. So my guess is that the next meeting that will have the next time we're talking about this will be when the staff comes back to us with

[155:03] What what the sausage would look like based on the inputs. For those three different Ideas that were presented by the working group. And then, you know, like with everything else in planning and particularly in Boulder. Then there's got to be a long public process that has to do with, well, what would the zoning changes look like and what what happened to the businesses are there. And what about height restrictions. And what about this. And what about that and Have we actually included the folk I mean, especially if you're concerned about equity, the people who live near East boulder rec center. I'm sorry to East boulder sub Community area. There's a wealthy community off to the south and there is a manufactured home community that's in the county off to the north. And there's concerns at that manufactured home community has not really been fully engaged not, it's not that it's been ignored, but it just hasn't been fully engaged. So there's a lot a lot of work still to be done at J. Would you agree with that.

[156:04] Yeah, I mean that they're not even close to making decisions on anything so quick update would be helpful. And then, just so you have a better sense of what the work is and what the time frame is Great. Thanks. Yeah. And Sarah thanks for that update. It's a very exciting project and it'll Take a long time. I'm cool. At this point on anything else with relation to this work plan that she has up on the screen. For February. And if you don't have anything right now, we can always, you can always email me.

[157:01] Follow up from there. Treat on there so Yeah, good. Yeah, great. Okay. And then the next item that I wanted to add was just a recap of last night the presentation. The presentation at The Council meeting, which I think was fine. Um, I did get a fair amount of engagement and There is a request from Let's see, from Rachel, and Aaron. To Propose to counsel, how have can you know better strengthen our relationship with counsel with relation to

[158:03] The issues and topics pertaining to housing. You know, we all recognize that there were a few times this past year where you know we we could have been better utilized, you know with with, you know, topics relating to housing, you know, homelessness, etc. So, um, We don't have to have to have an answer now. And I think that, you know, the fact that Jay said, you know, a little while ago, if there's a topic related to housing. That how you know Council will be discussing, we should just discuss it. Um, you know, I think there are some people who are like, well, we should only discuss something if Council brings it to our board and then there are others who want to just discuss it. If it's related to housing and so I want to, you know, hear where people are at with that. And ultimately, my goal is just for us to better collaborate with council to, you know, create these, you know,

[159:00] Creative and robust, you know, solutions, you know, with our recommendation, you know, lots of diverse experiences on this board that Council has to draw from. So That was a long, long way of just getting to where I want to get to, which is you know better better engaging with counsel. And what does that look like um You know, one more thing. I'll add is that I know Adam, what was present at many of the announced joint committee meetings and it sounds like I'm From my recollection that that was successful and having him there. And, you know, as a former member of have you know that that was a fitting space for him to be in. Um, so I don't know if and I don't know what what that looks like. Going forward you know if if Adam is going to, if we want them to continue engaging with

[160:02] You know what we're doing here. And if that makes sense to him for him to be some sort of liaison. Again, these can spit balling. I just want to open it up and see where y'all are at with with that topic. So You know, Our relationship to counseling. I'm Just thinking about that. So yeah. Well now, I mean you know I fall on the side of saying if it's something that relates to housing, and we should be discussing it and And within our own internal mechanisms deciding how we're going to move forward with it or what we want to do with it. And then once we've made those decisions. We just, you know, as far as the interaction with counselors, I think, to put together clear recommendations. Or areas of interest for our work plan, you know that we want to move forward with

[161:05] So that's, that's where I am on it and I, you know, That's where we should be Yeah. And and it the energy that I got from council is that they are really interested that from those who asked me questions, etc. Like, there is a desire to engage more this year with us and understand you know where we're coming from and And even if you know there isn't a direct ask, can you look at this particular thing within this you know this this ordinance or whatever, you know, I think it's, it makes sense for us as a board to discuss it if it relates to housing and you know just provide counsel with what we think You know recommendation wise. So Judy,

[162:03] Um, I agree with you. I thought they were they seem pretty interested. I mean, they had several people asking questions. I think Mark Wallach asked a question to And they seem to know they seem to be asking what is it you want and that they asked you to get back to them. So I think at some point we Fairly when We need to do that and you had suggested a couple things. One was, yes, you'd be happy to get back to them and that we were having a meeting tonight and you would talk to all of us. And then the other one was you did suggest the idea of a liaison. Now I don't know Adam didn't volunteer to be the person I think so. No, he wouldn't want to be or should But the idea of a liaison is good because that would help a lot where there'd be just one person that traditionally, it would be you. Who would go to That person, you know, we would talk about it and you would go to that person. I think, you know, that would be an idea that I think might might be helpful.

[163:00] Yeah, and We should Probably try and come up with a couple things. So you have something Yes, please don't go, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I would like to get to counsel and An email, you know, following up on that. And so is there any other thoughts on on that, you know, love to hear Danny, you're in the dark. Sorry. I, um, so, I think, you know, the fact that we're having this meeting tonight kind of reflects I think A collective eagerness to, you know, have a lot of inner interaction with counseling and we moved into the 13th because we thought that those records were going to be reviewed on the 19th and the 20th would have been too late. And so I think that I think that's a good Jumping point for the whole notion that you know We want to know everything that's going on with housing, but we also, we want to be there for them.

[164:02] And just really kind of make that point to them that look you know we're here when these things come up. We really want to play a role in it. And a lot of times it's going to be Very much a supporting role right but you know we want to be included in that. And every time we have a chance to take a look at these things. And and really kind of delve into it and stuff. It seems to work really well. All the way down the line. So I think that's one of the messages to really you know related them to is that, yeah. Uh, we like to be able to provide that assistant role and so Again, Um, anything Else there. Yeah, I think that I'd like to Just follow up with them and Just send an email within the next week or so, you know, just reiterating the

[165:06] Excitement desire eagerness to to, you know, work, work together in the next year. Among those other points and and you know I will throw out the suggestion about some sort of liaison, but it was really just an idea. I didn't want to put them on the spot, but I know I did. So yeah, that was off, um, was anyone able to watch, Judy. I know you Watched was anyone able to attend last night. Yay, okay, well, Sarah was a sounds good. Okay, cool. We can move on then I'm to New business. Is there any new business.

[166:06] No. This is more. Just a question. I forgot to ask earlier but is planning board looking at any housing related projects right now or Have you identified any in your like upcoming work plan. For The answer to that is almost everything that comes before us is housing. As Jay laid out in the list that that list is what's going to be coming before us in terms of policy frameworks. In terms of specific projects. I don't know. We're not. We're not kept apprised of what's in the pipeline until it is on our agenda. In terms of particular projects.

[167:01] What we said in our letter to city council was we really want them to focus our priorities would be if they were to approve them our priorities would be The use table review, specifically the neighborhood centers were very, very much want to be able to move forward on that. And we'd like the city to move forward on that. Additional sub community plans, particularly in gun barrel and at diagonal Plaza. Discussing new tools or potential tools that might lead to more opportunities for housing that is affordable rather than this sort of very high end housing that produces funds to pay for permanently affordable housing, trying to figure out what what are some of the To discuss what are some of the tools that might be available that don't exist right now in the city that could

[168:04] Reduce that high, low, Dynamic that we have And I'm A Jay and if you remember any thing else. I'm sorry, I'm just, those are the that's what comes to mind. First and foremost, Yes. That was Comprehensive yeah Well, since I've read your letters. It was that was something that I'm just intrigued by the, the last point about finding other Is it funding mechanisms, you're just worth You don't know. I think it could be. I mean, it could be anything from. I mean, we the idea, the recognition that we don't seem to have Enough. We don't seem to have a full complement of tools that get us to the place where we can get ahead of. So here's the key. And I think john will agree with me on this.

[169:03] Development in Boulder is driven by the developers, the developers come to us with a project and then the city responds, the staff responds, the various boards and commissions respond, etc, etc. So everything is driven by that even though we have the boulder Valley comp plan and we have the use the land use code and we have our zoning and all that stuff at the end of the day. It's driven by the developers. So the question is what are tools that exist that may not already be in our toolbox. Yeah, that can either get us ahead of developers in certain awkward for certain opportunities, maybe, maybe city on land. Or that can be incentives to To think creatively about incentives to Get a different kind of Outcome than just high end house high end luxury and then

[170:03] Boulder Housing Partners and Permanently affordable and there's no we don't have. We don't have a list of things we would like we have to think about it. We need input from actual experts in the field to give us some ideas. Interesting. Chuck. I just wanted to say that. Yeah, that's something that, as Sarah said she knows I have an interest in, and I would love to talk more with you, Sarah about what you guys are thinking on that and To Yeah, just take a real close look at the relationship between, as you say, the developers, our existing code and our comp plan and how it suggests, we're moving because I don't think those things are effectively aligned to get to that end goal that the comp plan is talking about. So It's great that you guys are engaging with that.

[171:03] I think that'd be a great place for us to put some of our energy to. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cool J. Yeah, I think what Sarah was describing aligns really well with our sort of review of the middle income housing strategy. To see sort of where we're getting the outcomes that we hope for with that and I think You know the missing middle is sort of the way it's been described as you know we do our code really incentivize the high end stuff. And then we, as you know, government agency are able to provide the permanently affordable, but it's the stuff in between or not getting that we used to in our cities you know 5060 years ago. So how do we get that back and it's it's a pretty thorny issue and Yeah, there's sort of a whole rethink of how we approached zoning and our regulatory code so And I would just say, Yeah.

[172:00] My own perspective is, and I hate to keep coming back to the neighborhood centers issue. But I actually think the neighborhood sent the reimagining of our old shopping areas. As a, as a neighborhood center with mixed use and housing that's not just what we have it transit village, but much more like what we have it. Holiday is a really potentially amazing way to open up the opportunity for housing that that serves the widest variety, the widest range of needs in the city and can help us add the units that we say we want to add to meet our missing middle Who, who told us what they want. And they don't want rental high end rentals. They want what they can buy already out in the hinterlands which is either a home or a townhome or a duplex with a little bit of a guard and that's not what's being produced right now and we've got to figure out how we can move in that direction.

[173:09] Yeah, Terry. I think I totally agree with all that. The short answer is incentivize us to build More smaller products as opposed to big larger products and it's all about zoning. It's all about zoning. I totally understand from planning perspective, a bunch of friends on planning board over the years and So I hear this all the time. It's well we don't have any control. It's always just projects that are brought to us are the projects that are brought to planning board are Based on what people can do right there. They're driven by zoning. It's also. I mean, since we're kind of just talking. Theoretically, let's go crazy. Let's Let's resume. And neighborhood that largely is being torn down and rebuilt in a really expensive high end homes multimillion dollar reason that whole neighborhood.

[174:08] Don't allow those big rooms, but a lot of duplexes try Plexus almost 8000 square foot lots. So instead of buying an $800,000 $10 And building a two and a half million dollar single family you you have $800,000 tear down when you build three $800,000 telephones or duplex that's as crazy as it settles a million dollars aside or $800,000 aside and it's still a lot less expensive than the big fancy home so I know that's never going to happen. But if we want projects to come to planning board that that that are in the middle. Then incentivize that allow that to happen and incentivize it to happen that's that's the short answer. Right now isn't very tangible yeah those sentence matter. And I actually there's a little bit of a zone zone that is like it's up at 55th

[175:06] Off of Arapaho and it must have been a small farm that got rezoned and the the the the the parcels are 3000 square feet and the homes are 1500 square feet. And it's a lovely little neighborhood. And I'm not saying that. That's all we should be building, but it is possible to build single family homes as well as duplexes triplex and apartment buildings, but you have to make the the parcels, a little bit smaller. Right, so it's just like thinking about It's like thinking about how to do this and it can't be done. piecemeal, and it has to really be done. And so I think this conversation about what are some of the tools we have, how do we get ahead of this The land use table view, some of that is zoning changes so It's a big, it's a lot, it's a lot to take on and I'm really appreciate how much staff is going to have to do to make this make sense to the public, because it's

[176:08] There's nothing quite as dull as are you stable. It. Is what drives. It's what drives what gets built Absolutely. It's all about zoning to take my makers and allow those 6000 square foot last to be subdivided God in the toolbox. Just like you said 3000 square feet. Each 1500 square foot single family homes with a little backyard and you drive the price down because it's 1500 square feet in that 3500 square foot new bill there. I mean, there's a million ways to do it. We just haven't done I don't Know, I feel like I want to have a conversation with people from the Zoning Board. I don't know what their, their priorities are. So those are actually

[177:02] The zoning actually goes through planning Bowser is very specific. I mean it poses important too, but the zoning conversations go through a planning board. So, You're talking to us. It's, um, yeah. It's not clear cut who looks at what projects, per se. Right. Um. Cool. Well, I'm just looking at the clock here. It's a 57 so I just want to be respectful of everyone's time and I know that there are some matters from staff. So I'd like to move on to that, um, And if everywhere. I think that we will go over nine, so I'm going to before to motion to extend the meeting to Jay. How long do you think you're going to need for I can do it in two minutes. Really, okay. It'll be really quick. I promise.

[178:00] Okay, so I just wanted to give a quick Request that if you know anybody that would love to. Have have to make sure that they do apply will miss Judy, but it would be great to get give counsel, a nice Big slate of candidates to choose from. So if you do know anyone please encourage them to apply the deadline is January 28 And then a reminder for the Council retreat. So January 22 it's Friday, they start at 4pm and then they go to Saturday morning at 8pm. So just to give you a sense and the details are on the City Council website Mason question about something there. Yeah, just to tack on to that better boulder does their boards and commission training for anybody interested as well. And I know they're going to host that again this year. So if there are people that are interested in filling out their applications.

[179:05] And then the other the other item was the HSBC membership changes. And I guess that was Judy's request. And I'm not sure. Judy if based on you talked about it earlier. I wasn't sure if you still want sort of an update on that or not. So I'll leave it up to you, Judy. You're good. You're on mute. I shouldn't even say this, I shouldn't say is better. I was on mute. I don't remember why I asked for it. I guess I'm okay. Okay, yeah, that's it, that's it from staff, unless you have any questions for me. No. Thank you, Jay. That nine o'clock. Alright, with that. Is there anything else before we close this meeting.

[180:00] All right, then I'm motion to debrief calendar. He had to 9pm calendar check and that be our calendar check for today. I think we looked at the work plan. So I think we're good. So in that case. Motion to adjourn this meeting. Right. All in favor. All right. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for all the teamwork today to guys really appreciate it. Thanks, everyone. Good night. Have a good night, everyone. Bye bye. Everybody