December 13, 2023 — Design Advisory Board Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:00] And Shannon, before you start, I'm just gonna hit record real fast, okay? Okay, you're good. Alright, good evening, everyone. Again, I'm Shannon Muller planner with the city of Boulder planning and development department. I'll just talk to you real quick for this city of Boulder Planning and Development Department. I'll just talk to you real quick for about a minute here. It's a brief intro. So this is a building proposed at 900 Walnut Street that all has proposed to be connected to the existing St. Julian Hotel. It's on the side of a building pad that's been planned for redevelopment as part of the civic use space since the 19 ninety's. There's quite a bit of history on the property so I'll let the applicant team talk through that with you. But this proposal is here at DAB tonight because it's located in the non-historic area of the downtown urban design guidelines and it is also located in the night in Canon urban renewal plan that was created in the 19 nineties specific to the redevelopment of this area that included the St. Julian. It's being reviewed as part of a site review amendment. Staff identified a couple of design criteria for the board's discussion that were noted in the memo.

[1:01] So with that, I am happy to turn it over to our applicant team. So Matt, We're, we're hoping to, we understand that some people have a 6 30 hard stop on this. So. You want to kind of keep your presentation to around 10 min if we can. And then, we'll allow the some public participation in the board. The DAD members will ask clarifying questions and then we'll get into a discussion. So that's that's the plan. Okay, good. Absolutely. Okay, perfect, great. We'll put that up on the screen. Sorry for that little hiccup there. So we mentioned that we're going to just go over the highlights here and I think it's important for this project because it is unique it was planned. Back in the 1980, s you can see this timeline that we have here up on the screen starting the eightys with the revised urban renewal plan.

[2:02] And then, the St. Julian came to fruition and had a grand opening in 2,005. Since then, many people would consider the lobby to be sort of a pseudo living room for the Boulder community been a great contributor for people from all walks of life have come there to just sell and enjoy. The benefits of Boulder and each other in that community that's been developed here. The design for the project also includes the public parking garage below grade to support the neighborhood in specific use programs which further contributes to that community. Originally conceived and designed to accommodate a feature children's museum in music folk venue. The civic pad was left dormant for many years. We were looking at this from the early 2 thousands all the way to present day and unfortunately looking at the these other sort of uses it just wasn't viable. So between 2,002 and 2015 the city. Several task force initiatives to develop a civic use program. That would be self-sustaining in.

[3:06] 2013 the city commission 42 for to develop a concept for to help support that. This was approved in 2,014 and in 2050 it's worth noting that the city of Boulder, Cajun and St. John and partners signed a partnership agreement just still active to develop in use and use I should say a new civic use facility as a meeting and conference facility which will serve Boulder and what's unique about this is it's on profits for meetings and gatherings with really big preferential. Okay, over. Let's say for profit or private gatherings. I've been to this a lot deeper in 2019, but then in 2020 COVID came in as you all know that that changed the world forever. We came back and we restarted this year and really accepted jump into this design thinking. So hopping into that a little bit deeper, we want to talk.

[4:08] About the program. Oh, there is a lot of information on here, but perhaps focusing on these on it's here, which is really just the program. The building is approximately 54,000 square feet with a 6,500 square foot conference room and then supporting that we have a pre function support spaces like warning kitchen restrooms and storage at the ground level and all of those are also being supported by the main hotel. Above that, at levels 2, 3. Yeah, for the levels are 39 guest. It's worth noting that the height of the project is identical to that approved Civic Use project in 2,002 and in 2,014 and that is at 55. That's the same as the existing context. And that level of line it's quite well connecting building this for the urban design and really starting to get into that.

[5:01] It's funny but we actually have to start with a structure. This civic you said is on top of the existing KGA garage. And so what we're showing on here, we didn't submit this, but we just thought that this would be a good way to explain a little bit more about where we're coming from. So when you're looking at this, this is Nestle to this downtown urban fabric, but really what we're trying to do is figure out how to nestle into that fabric and work with that existing structure. And there's 2 major challenges that we had to overcome. So when you're looking at this structure you'll see all of these columns in the garage level that are roughly on a 28 foot by 28 foot grid and the clear span for let's say the conference facility up above is quite challenging. And so we had to come up with unique ways of trying to deal with that. And then if you look at the diagram up above, this is really looking at the floor slab or if you will sort of the civic pad that everyone can see today. And what's worth noting is that we're in a flood zone. This is really the second key challenge.

[6:03] So how do we deal with that? We've already dealt with that from the beginning, but we can't change that facade. We can't change access to that without demolishing it. Essentially, we would have to restructure the this whole portion of the garage to get that to change but it but we do have maintain the existing connection at the tenth street quarter right here and we had planned for this of use building from the get-go and have an exit and entry here that we are maintaining for this design as well. So I think it's just worth noting those 2. While I'm on here, I'm just gonna show you briefly the design in that grid and how it translates up into the building. And you can see that we can accommodate those step backs to some degree, but we can't do it in every. There are limitations based on the structure that. Don't afford us all of the opportunities to have that structure set back. So I think that is we're showing looking at sorry I'm going up the wrong ones here but I think it's good to look at this building section and you can see that in section where that step is.

[7:09] So the floor slab at level one is approximately 3 and a half to 4 feet. Above grade down below and again that's above the flood plane. And then you can see transfer beams here that are tying into those columns that makes it really critical in very limiting in terms of how to work that space in fact in our earlier designs we had a slightly different technique but we had to rework it with our structural engineers to make this work. And then I want to show you the level one plan here. And this just shows those grid so you can see these clear spans and the civics. Event space with the columns in the corners. There's some compromises to make all of this work both structurally and spatially, which I think is worth noting. I want to show you the pedestrian passage. This pedestrian easement here. And so getting into this urban realm, we want to understand how do we maintain what we have but in enhance it.

[8:09] And so this passage has been very active over the years, but it has just had this concrete pad next to it. So what we're looking at doing is shifting that easement over and really creating a really vibrant space you can start to see this sort of whimsical dynamic arch passageway that has influence from these. Pedestrian injuries up above and that really helps create this connection. And so this this gap if you will is articulated between the 2 buildings and it really creates this clear separation between the original St. Julian and the Julian annexing conference facility civic use if you will and we're really looking at this being this confluence of energy so the pedestrians coming off of Kenyan Boulevard can come up the stairs but that students coming from Walnut come here.

[9:00] Guests from the hotel can pass across and public that come up can come up through this. Elevator here. I'll show that in a larger scale. And so you can see this diagram if somebody's entering the hotel, they come to the lobby here and if they want to go to the conference facility, they can come all the way through, pass outside undercover, and then come in to the annex. Conversely, they could come through Tenth Street, whether it's one side or the other, come down, come across and over and into any of these entries depending on what their purpose serves and then vice versa off of canyon they can come in here too that was something that you request of us we wanted to provide that diagram Okay, thanks. And it is worth noting that the primary entry is on the west side here. There are secondary entries, but they're really primarily for service and for egress. Now I want to move to building elevation to. In or I'm sorry hold on.

[10:02] The context filling so getting into the elevation and thinking about the articulation of the facade, We've been singing so we want to nestle this into the fabric and make sure that it is born of the site born of the context and so I'm gonna zoom in here and look at that context and elevation. So on the left is St. Julian Hotel. You can see a clear distinction between the base in the middle in the top. And then the eastern neighbor has a very similar base middle top type of organization to it. As well, you'll see that. There is there are 3 days here that are 86 feet. On the right and 86 feet on the left. There's a requirement to maintain 75 feet. We can't do that with the structural grid, but we're trying to stay in keeping with our neighbor. So what we have done is articulated the center day that's about 87 feet 10 inches wide.

[11:00] And then you can see these step backs that we have. I mentioned that corridor on the left that step back at the passageway and then the balcony step back here about 13 feet and then on the west and then on the east it steps back about 8 foot 6 and you'll also notice and this becomes important as we start to look at step backs on all sides is that we're stepping back on the eastern side to respect the neighbor's views. At the upper levels of the north side it steps in a similar way so let me show you that actually I think probably the better view for this Let me pull it up. Sorry, give me a second to pull up the right one. Oh. This is just another view on Kenyon Boulevard, both from the southwest and the southeast. And you can see how the building starts to erode. Away, if you will, for those setbacks to respect that.

[12:01] Also, you'll notice that this portion is a little bit more special because it's trying to signify entry. And then on the other side, we're stepping that back as well. But going again back to the north facade this, is a little bit hard to see in elevation if we need to, we can pull up a sketchup model and go through that. But you can see the stepping that we're doing here. It still has the base. It still is middle and it still is the top. The base is largely utilitarian because that is the back of house along the alley, but we have tried to add windows and other expression that helps enhance the architecture at the base. And then when we get to the middle portion, that portion is stepped back. We add planting, so stepping back between 5 and 15 feet, depending on where you're looking at the facade. One to also look at the roof plan. We added a couple of dimensions on here, but essentially we want to make sure that it's understood that the penthouse, whether it's this screen wall on the west side or the actual penthouse mechanical room, they're all step back, substantially from the facade.

[13:06] So in the north, it's about 45 feet on the east. It's about 22 on the south all the way to the property line is about 60 and on the west that's about 35 feet. So that again, that stepping continues all the way up the building just to preserve access to light in view, for the neighbors. And now I want to get into the material palette here. So the metallic, the material palette is very rich. It's high quality materials on the facade in keeping with the design guidelines and it also relates very much for the St. Julian. In fact, the base is utilizing the same mixture of Cleft Sandstone that is used on the St. Julian. There's a lot of mix in here that people could read all the details, but essentially that's the cleft red sandstone. At the middle that you'll see where the balconies are for the guest rooms that is all limestone.

[14:01] It's either looked at honed or as cleft. And then at the top we're looking at this metal panel that's this zinc metal panel that's again a very high quality product and so we really are enhancing not only with the articulation of the form and massing, but also with the materiality, this base metal top articulation. And that can be seen not only on Kenyon Boulevard, but this is really thinking in this project from all 4 sides. So that is even on the west side at the passage. And then if we go to the next slide, we mentioned this already, but there's that basement on the top on the north. And I think it's worth noting that we're paying a special extra attention to the East facade. We're using high quality materials there as well. Where we but up adjacent to the property line there's a constructability concern there. So rather than using limestone or metal panel or stone that is clad, we're utilizing. A high quality CMU, they call it, and in this is it. It is ground face and filled.

[15:07] So almost looks like limestone, but it's seen you and that way when we get to construction the contractors can build that from our side of the property rather than the others. With liminal limited impact on the other side. So I think that is worth noting. And I think all of these enhance that basement on top. I think it's also worth mentioning again that in order to enhance the solar and visual access to the ground level, we've provided expensive placing. I think that is worth showing yet again. We have this enhanced glazing. We're meeting the requirements, but perhaps what might even be. Additionally important is that the conference facility is on the glass and we don't just have glazing.

[16:25] Presentation is to focus on and address the design guidelines and how our building relates to those guidelines. In light of the recent correspondence from some adjacent neighbors to the east we felt it would be important to provide some historical context and just wanted to briefly touch upon that. This project was planned for back in 2,002 and the project to the east was planned subsequent to that and through. Their initial approvals. The building largely had a blank wall on their West facade, understanding that this 55 foot tall building would be constructed at some time in the future.

[17:00] And through their design review process with the city. The city recommended the need for more articulated West facade, not knowing how long it would take for that proposed structure to be built. Articulated, not penisrated necessarily. The a condition of approval from the planning department. Was for the developer applicant or owner to record a declaration of use with the understanding that a 5 55 foot building would be built to the West in the future. Oh, it's taking longer than to speak to. Figure this out, the viability we talked about COVID, we talked about all these other challenges. We're really committed to this. We still have an agreement in place with the City of Boulder to bring this to for So with that, just really wanna thank everyone for opportunity to present to you and look forward to hearing. Your comments. Thank you very much. Okay, thanks, Matt. So before we get into the into the designed advisory board. Questions and then discussion.

[18:03] We I'd like to hear from public but before that I need to I think everybody probably already knows the kind of the role that Dad plays. And I say, DAB, I mean the Design Advisory Board. But just for review, so, is an advisory board, which is kind of in our name. And we review architectural design features that are. That are at the request of the planning board and the and the city council. And related to criteria contained in. The downtown urban design guidelines in the site review criteria. So that's what we review. That's what. Matt was talking about a little bit kind of going through this as the kind of things that we're looking at. So we'll be discussing these. As we go through this, specifically 2 of them, but. If other ones come up in the discussion, then Those are ones that will also talk about within within our timeframe.

[19:05] But I think it's important to note that. The dab doesn't doesn't approve or deny projects. We really advise. The staff in the, in this case the planning board. On these design features that are contained within. These guidelines. So, We also don't review engineering, we don't review zoning, we don't review parks and engineering. But within the context of what we do review, we really welcome public comment and to the extent we can we'll try to address those comments. Within the, within the context of what we're sort of. The direction that we're that we're given. So hopefully that's clear enough for people to kind of get into this. So, So I think what what we'll do now is kind of open this up to the public hearing.

[20:02] To the public comments so I'll let Amanda kind of walk people through that. So that you all have a good idea of what's. What's about to happen? Sure. Thank you, Todd. So if anybody would like to speak, now, now is the time to raise your hand in Zoom. And I will, Can you the opportunity to unmute and to also speak and for anybody. Also if you could please display your full name. Or the name that you're commonly known by as stated in our roles of decorum, please, please do so before I call on you. So looks like we've got a few people with their hands up, so we'll go ahead and get started. Called Catherine. Gasman first.

[21:00] See you. There she goes. Unmute. Yeah, I do. I'm sorry. I haven't done a webinar for a while. Okay. Yes, my name is Katherine. I'm in the adjacent building, 1077, Canyon Boulevard. I think there's been some confusion about the address. 1095 is the commercial side, I think. But my address is 1077. I'm in unit to 10. I just have a couple of concerns and I apologize if it may be outside the scope of the design advisory board. I've never spoken at a meeting and I'll just try to. Let share my comments. A couple of comments I have is about the traffic. I don't quite understand the egress and access for this building. Where the design, I was, I'm looking on, I think it's page A 101 and how you describe the pedestrian walkway.

[22:02] Tenth, tenth street right there is really used. By the St. Julian. As a. Service entrance. Generally there is no traffic that comes through there and 9 times out of 10 you'll see in the cars of the day that there are delivery trucks, trash trucks, eco-cycle trucks. So I don't quite understand. Where the this particular building and now the St. Julian, if you build a pedestrian access there will be actually doing all of its service related work. So I think traffic in that small alleyway has become a big problem. Our garage is on the alley and then the building. I don't know the building that sits on Walnut. Their access garage is also in that way. Cause there's a series of parking spaces back there. So it's a pretty tight space. And when there is a truck, it is a one lane alleyway. So traffic is a concern. The pedestrian access is concerned. And I'm still just a little bit concerned about the light and views and the closeness of the proposed building.

[23:04] To the west side of our building. Those are my comments. Okay, thank you. So we won't respond to those. Individually, but, hopefully they'll come up in our discussion. So thank you for your your comment, Catherine. Right, okay, next step is. 20, you should be able to unmute. You have 3 min, okay? Yes. Yes, that's Anatiba, and I want to thank you, B, to be here and, you know, given your time to get our comments. So, you know, given your time to, get our comments. So I, yes, it's 17, 7, Kenyan, number 1095 is Miss Lydian.

[24:01] So is the name of the building misleading. It's not that civic building. It's building mostly for the profit. So I think the name has to be changed. To not mislead the public. Second, I live on the fourth floor of the building face in West. My bedroom, my office, my living room, I mean in my in my kitchen, my dining room, facing west. And this proposed building. Blocking. Every my view. It's not just blocking the video. It's actually take away my daylight and the possibility to enjoy my home. And when Matt said, They put this bill, in the building to respect to the neighbors. This is most laughable. This is no consideration to us. There are no consideration to us. There are no respect to the red. They are at one of the most beautiful building in downtown Boulder. And it's set to the red. They are at one of the most beautiful building in downtown Boulder and it's set to the profound destruction. You erecting this wall just inches away from the west of our building inches, the not even easement assessment for cleaning our windows, repair our bell companies.

[25:11] There are no even way to manage the water system in a way if they are snowfall and snow are come related on the second floor decks. It's just so many issues, so many red flags and just sitting there and saying in respect to the neighbors, there was no consideration at respects given to the neighbors. We are and it's again we're talking about windows and appearance of this proposed building. What about appearance of the most beautiful building downtown? You disturb in their peers of our building. You're talking about the windows of appearance of this new proposed building. What about the building next door? You block in your black and not just You block in the, view, if you like in the balcony of people, people working on the belt. And touch in the vaults. I mean, I would just honestly would like to ask you a question if it was your home, if you would live here in this building, get that at, would you propose this construction?

[26:11] Would you erect the wall? Few inches away from your windows and balcony. I'm gone. Thank you for your consideration. Thank you very much. Alright, next step we have a Cindy. I don't have a last name. Cindy, I'll allow you to talk if you'd like to go ahead and. State your full name when you unmute. Hi, my name is Cindy Lindsey. I'm also a resident of the at 1077 canyon. I have pretty much the same concerns that have been expressed here. I did have one question. Excuse me, one question about how trucks will unload in the back. I can't tell from the drawings if there's actually a recess area where they would back in and get out of the alleyway.

[27:00] So that's a concern. Just the general traffic in the alleyway is already busy and the alleyway is already busy and so some consideration needs to be given to the alleyway is already busy and so some consideration needs to be given to the design to accommodate. Whatever. This is after the construction is complete and it's being used as perhaps a wedding venue or a conference center or something like that. Will they be able to unload food? And unload chairs and tables and whatever else they're using in the facility without blocking the alleyway. And then I did submit a question, about viewing from the top of the building. On the on the west side of your building i'm sorry the east side of your building the west side of our building to really understand the distances between each of the floors of the 2 buildings because it appears that the lower floors are almost completely blocked both from views and light.

[28:06] And then as it goes up a little higher, there's more of a separation. But still, especially for the units that are on the back of the r, the building will basically completely block the view. So it'd be very useful to see an explanation of how the setbacks that you've been talking about actually allow the erect to still have. The views that they have. Those are my comments. Okay, thank you Cindy. Great. Next step we have. Dennis. Apologies about the last name, Johann, Johannes. Did you, did you raise your head?

[29:04] Thanks. Yes. You're good. Okay, I think I'm on mute. Is that correct? And, and, and thank you everybody for your time today. So, oh, very important. And, and stressing the emotional, very important and stressing the emotional rules at the very front end and stressing the emotional rules at the very front end really have come to light because it is an emotional situation for us residents at the ORE and I'm a resident at the Red awesome. I've got a couple questions that perhaps can be discussed down through the process in a couple of comments. The first comment is that really related to the tenth street court or I do it felt like there was a strong emphasis of capturing that the elements. But in fact those that tell tenth street quarter is CASP pointed out walks by trash cans service areas and certainly would like that to be be clarified simply.

[30:04] And I'm, Why wouldn't that walkway have been placed between? The and this proposed structure that seems to be more congruent with maintaining the tenth street. That seems to be more congruent with maintaining the tenth street, passageway and, I would appreciate some, passageway. And, I would appreciate some comment. Sorry about that. As we go through it. The other thing I noticed was the 55 feet height of the building that was approved. In the somewhat defensive. Posture that presented in 2,002 does not include the 10.2 feet on top of that which is apparently part of the roof i don't know if not being an architect whether that should be considered or not. But it seems to me that one layman's viewpoint is that's a 65 foot. The building. So I would really much appreciate that. The other question I had was it seemed as the plans were proposed that there was some type of exhaust area that needed to be opened from the garage.

[31:14] And I'm not quite sure how that fits in what I would call. The setback from the We're viewing my notes here. the, thing that I wanna thank is Shannon for sending over the plans that we're labeled Si, 1999 dash 12. And they had some real interesting. Civic use descriptions. I would sure like to know whether the specific use descriptions are gonna be consistent. And if they're not, I would also like commentary if that civic user will be available, to the hotel.

[32:02] Thank you. Very much. For your time. Thank you, Dennis. Great, thank you. We have someone on the phone. I'm gonna, allow you to unmute but if you could please state your your full name when you do so Hello, this is Mark McGaldy. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you, Mark. Yes. Alright, I have several concerns. One concern is the alley is very crowded. If our building would catch on fire. And there was all this traffic here. It'd be pretty difficult for a fire truck to get down that alley and help. And put our fire in our building. I think that that's very important. It's a safety issue in my mind. And. I also wonder.

[33:00] About, and I just, telling you from my own experience. My wife and I own a place on, Maxwell Street. That we ran out and we were going to put a garage on there. But because we would have to have. Do something, it would impact the view of the guy next to us and we were turned down to put that Now, that was just a single family dwelling and this unit that you're going to build. Is going to impact the view of 4 or 5 people here and it's all going to affect the pricing of our units. Which is going, which is going to be quite affect. Effective and it's it's going to affect all our bottom lines. I'm not sure that anyone has thought about that when they decided. To do this, but those are my concerns. Okay, thank you Mark.

[34:00] Great, thank you. Next up we have John Mahaffy. Followed by Deborah. Go ahead, John. John, I believe you're unmuted. You should be able to speak. Maybe he stepped away. And, and if not, we can come back to him. We can, if Deborah, I'm gonna call on you next. Deborah Fellon. Hi, can you hear me? This is Deborah Megaldy, Deborah Fel and Mgaldi.

[35:01] Yes. Yep. Hi. Thank you for your time. I, wanted to, join some of the concerns of my fellow residents at the Arrette. About the, congestion in the alley, which is already kind of a nightmare, frankly, trying to get in and out of there some days. Between the delivery trucks for the Julian and for the adjacent office building the trash. People just parking there randomly. And routing more traffic into what is essentially the driveway to our homes. Is going to create an even more not only inconvenient but potentially dangerous situation. Another concern in the, and the views are a real concern. Property values in Boulder are a real concern. It should not be dismissed. But there are safety issues at at play as well. And one of the concerns I have is if there's going to be bathrooms on the First floor, ground level of this building.

[36:04] If it's just going to create a situation in which yet more unhoused individuals are going to be heading into that building to use the bathroom, whatnot, adding to an already very serious and largely unaddressed. Problem that we as residents have been experiencing. In our area with trespassing. With harassment and in fact violent physical assault, which happened to a friend of ours who was visiting us. Report it to the police, had the person on camera. Doesn't matter, apparently. So I see that as being even more of an a factor with yet another building and there was an issue made early on. By the developer. That this, these plans for something predated the structure that we live in. Our building, our residence. But I don't know that anyone could have foreseen. We certainly didn't when we bought good for seeing that such a massive structure looming over all of our residences would be erected in such a a It's just damaging way, frankly, to all of our quality of life to our property values.

[37:22] And to the enjoyment of our homes. I've lived in Boulder long enough to to know as as my husband just pointed out, we had a personally a project shut down because of neighbor. Subjection. Neighbors carry a lot of weight in Boulder. I sure hope that it will be the case here. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thanks, Deborah. I'm gonna come back to. Oh, I'm just kidding. It disappeared. Let's see. Next up is Jane. I'm followed by Dan.

[38:06] 10 min. This is Mitch Amber. Jane's wife, Jane's husband. Anyway, I don't want to repeat. What our neighbors have said and we agree with with everything that's been said. We live in the erect unit 205 right in the middle of the building in the alley facing the Exeter building, 1050 walnut. And we've been here 12 years. We've actually calmed down a lot of the issues in the alley over the years working with the city. By them putting a delivery zone by them enforcing more. Some people realize before they put in the signs for just the delivery areas that they could just park their car and go to work for 8 h and come back. And drive their car home and not be bothered, not get ticketed. This was 10 for 8, 1012 years ago.

[39:02] It's all settled down very well. In the alley. My concerns are mainly during the construction phase. It's important that the be maintained as a through alley. They can come in to the alley and then they can go out around the entrance to the parking structure. By the Julian and get out. If that gets blocked off at all, we're going to have people backing up trying to turn around. In the narrow alley. All the backup OSHA backup noises and everything else because Our balcony is right there. We keep the doors open. We live here. That's it's our home. We are in a no smoking zone for the city so I hope that you require whoever it's working on the project. That they enforce that they keep it non-smoking. Where are they going to load materials and everything?

[40:02] It's, I'm concerned with the disruption in the alley. I'm among everything else that that people have said. As far as the civic use. And I know that's been banded around. Like I said, we've lived here 12 years. I would like to see a very hard detail list of what is not going to be allowed. In that civic use project and no judgment, but. Is it going to be allowed to be used as a homeless? As a shelter on a cold night if if they need the space or is it going to be not allowed. I think it's important to have a list of what is not allowed. And I think everything else has been covered, so appreciate the time. And hopefully you guys will consider it. It is residences. On the second, third and fourth floor on the west side of our building. It is not. Commercial that's being blocked, it's residential.

[41:00] Thank you. Okay, thank you, Mitch. Great. We have one more hand raised at the moment. It's. Yes, good evening. Can you hear me? Yes. Excellent. I live in Unit Tool One. Which is on the second floor in the call it the southwestern corner of the Theorette, 1077 Canyon. Been there for, 12 years. First document. My wife and I enjoy it. We, patronize the St. Julian, and, Enjoy Boulder. My concerns are that there's no Yeah, between the proposed new structure. And the or my unit obviously views will be blocked but I think the concern that I have is that normally you maintain some type of a corridor for as was mentioned earlier, not just maintenance, but fire protection and in gross and egress.

[42:12] My unit It has a lot of windows on the west side. And by the construction of this building. If my unit is then non compliant with the code. With respect to the. Open window area for ventilation. Etc. and light. Then you're rendering my property. You know, uninhabitable so to speak. So I invited I did meet with Bruce. Oh, a few days back. And, I invited Bruce to come over and see from the inside of my unit what this situation what the proposed development would create for me.

[43:03] And you know, he's like He didn't want to do that. So I don't think that the that they're being fully. Transparent or honest when they say that they care about our property to the to the east. Finally, my concern is that the units that St. John's proposing 39 will be for extended Stay and these units people will have the ability to cook on hot plates and perhaps they'll put some stove in there or something. But these are not the people that are going to patronize the restaurants locally. They're typically on an expense account. And they're, gonna. Oh, just stay in their unit or whatever. There are other places around Boulder where extended stay units could be constructed. And I think would benefit the entire. Area more than putting them right there where we already have 3 restaurants that have gone out of business partly due to the pandemic and and they've not come back so I'm not sure that there's a demand for these extended.

[44:17] Stay units. Gosh, we go through all of this. You build it and then it's not occupied. Not utilized. We all lose so those are my comments at this point. Thank you Okay, thanks. Great. Let me just double check. I don't see any other hands raised at the moment. Okay. Okay, I think we'll close the public participation. I did get a message that. That's someone on the staff wants to. Respond to some of the public participation. Comment. So. Who would that be?

[45:07] Thanks so much, Chair. I'm Charles Farrow, Senior Planning Manager for Planning and Development Services. And I just wanted to thank everybody for their testimony and for taking the time to be here this evening and for the feedback. I just wanted to make a couple of quick notes, for taking the time to be here this evening and for the feedback. I just wanted to make a couple of quick notes just on the process moving forward. We are very early on in the process and to the chairs. Comments earlier tonight. You really dams role this evening is to focus specifically on architecture building design and how the buildings design kind of interface interfaces with the downtown. Design guidelines. All of the issues related to traffic, fire, access, noise, and other potential impacts. From the use will be addressed as we move through the subsequent planning board process. All of this is eventually going to culminate before, with the public hearing before the planning board.

[46:07] So they're gonna be many more opportunities for neighbors to plug in and participate in the process. So tonight is really not kind of the final say. We're very early on in the process. And will continue to keep the neighbors, apprised at every step of the process. It moves forward. So just wanted to note that this evening that this is kind of far from fully cooked and there's still going to be a lot of opportunity. For the project to evolve for the interfaces between the 2 to evolve. Wanted to thank all the neighbors again for their testimony this evening. So thanks again. Thank you, Charles. So I see Bruce has his hand up. I don't. Trying to figure out how to. Incorporate that Bruce. Did you want to respond to the comments or? Can we Can we, kind of hold off on that until we get into the discussion?

[47:04] You're muted, by the way. I, I, I don't want to respond to comments so far as just to make some. Some design comments acknowledging your focus and Charles focus that it should be design oriented related not planning department city council related. So if I can just take 30 s to make 2 points is that. We have, we took many years to get the St. Julian off the ground and we've developed and operated. A 4 star for diamond property that has been a great enhancement to downtown to Boulder in general and we wouldn't do anything that civic use or downtown to boulder in general and we wouldn't do anything that civic use or otherwise that would diminish that and that't do anything that civic use or otherwise that would diminish that and that's design related which is also factoring in the operations, etc. And as far as design, the, it really should be noted that the developer to the east signed a declaration of use. Acknowledging that a building up to 55 feet would be built. Adjoining it and it's original design.

[48:06] Had no windows. It was a blank wall and it was the planning board comments that said, why don't you look at changing that elevation, because the building that's going up next year could be, could take a while, could take a number of years. And, and that, even though I know that's historic perspective, but that really is an important point. And that's, and I thank you for your time. Okay, thanks. So, DAB members, before we get into the discussion, do you have any questions for probably Matt, regarding. The earlier discussion about the project. Give me clarifying questions. Steve. Hi. I have some clarifying they're probably rhetorical, but I want to get it out there in public record. Are both of these the red and this property 0 lot line properties? Be first question A. And then Bruce alluded to it sounds like the planning board stepped in and wanted facade treatment, I assume a 0 lot line on the rep property by adding.

[49:16] Windows and access and setting it back. No, in full while that someone could build a building right next to it. So I wanted some clarification of that, you know, is that indeed true? These are vaulted your lot lines. And what happened with that, you know, from that. Planning staff perspective. Can I if we could have a little bit of just quick, you know, like on that agreement in you know, why that was seen as a good idea, knowing that people someday would have a building right next to there. Windows. Thank you. Should I answer one of those or how do you wanna do that? Okay. I was hoping to hear from planning staff maybe. If they have answer those questions and I would love to hear from you too, Matt.

[50:05] Sure. And, and then you had alluded also that you had. Tried to address that with, with a setback or something. I just wanted to understand. What that was but first I want to hear from planning like what's the history of why Windows were allowed to be put on that 0 dot line. Bill. Shannon, do you wanna respond to that? Yeah, I, so these, the minimum setback for both these properties is the 0 foot side lot line. My understanding is that at the time that the Iraq building was going through the process that that is correct originally it was designed with with no windows on that side. There was a desire. Through the review process to add more. Designed to that facade that included Windows, so that did go forward and there was a declaration of use that was required to be recorded that noted that, a 55 foot tall building could be built on the adjacent property.

[51:09] And that was recorded on the a red property to notify future property owners that that could take place. Okay, thank you. And then maybe Matt. Just a question of you had alluded to because you were trying to do something. To mitigate that a bit. And I was wondering what that what that was. Yeah, it's a little bit hard unless I pull up the screen, but essentially on that. Do you want me to do so? Sure. Sure. Okay. Do that. Give me a second. Let me pull up. You know, we're actually going to pull up our model. And spin this around a little bit. So this is the model we, your context and put that all into place. And what you'll see when you really look at this in threed is that the building is set back.

[52:07] Wherever we can do it And so we have this corner set back. And so for instance, let's say a view from one of the terraces in that corner. They still get like in view there's still a setback even though we have the use by right to go to a 0. Sorry, this is, oh, here we go. So they still maintains a view of the flat irons. They still get light and view. They still get ventilation. Especially at the southeast and at the, sorry, let me go back to this. Especially at the southeast and also at the northeast corners where they our cut back to maintain those views and maintain. As much separation as we recently can. Given the structural complications that we spoke to earlier. And Matt, would you have any? Sense of how much you guys are giving up in terms of square footage and Property value by not building out your full.

[53:07] Build out. That's a great question. We haven't, Jen is on the call as well. We haven't. Identify the exact loss of square footage, but, Jen, I don't know if you have that off top of your head. If not, I can just identify those in plan here or actually I'm going to switch back to the other diagram. I think this might be a little bit easier. But you can see this corner is cut out here and then that corner is cut out there. If I were Yeah. Approximating we're probably about 350 square feet per level on this corner. Hmm. And it's it's reduced here it's probably about a hundred to 150 square feet per level at that corner. And then we're set back here, which is probably about 2 by 25. So that's 50 per level all the way up.

[54:00] Okay, thanks. Sorry, I'm doing public mask even. Sorry, I apologize, but that's the problem. Approximately what we're we're losing by creating those setbacks. Okay, great. Any other any other questions for Matt clarifying questions? Maybe weren't picked up in the presentation or need more clarity from DAB. I do have one question. That Matt, you, you may be able to answer. But can you go back to that kind of roof view of the your building and then the and then the one to the west. Sure. Okay. Yeah, move over a little, keep going. I'm sorry, east, east. Oh, oh, the building on the east. I want looking at the roof view. Yeah, East, don't yours in the one east of yours. Okay, sure. Sorry, I got my directions mixed up.

[55:01] Sounds good. It's a Midwest thing. Yeah. So my question is, The the units in this. 1077 building. That when people were talking about the impact, the potential impact. Some of them were facing. West, some of them were facing north and some of them were facing south. So can you tell by this? By the roof. Are there are there units face basically facing north and units facing south? Are there just 2 units per? How long that, how long that floor plan on their building. In other words, is anybody only facing West? I can answer a question of that. Is it that one I do not know the answer to Bruce or Jen? I don't know if you know if there is a unit center mask along the West that's only facing west.

[56:07] Okay. I have not seen a floor plan for levels 2 and 3. I've only seen a few of the commercial spaces below and I do not believe any are. Fully west facing, but I could be incorrect in stating that. Okay. Great, thank you. Yeah, from what I know, there's 2 units on 2 residential units on each of the erect floors, 2 residential units on each of the erect floors, 2 and 3. And my understanding is the fourth floor unit of the Tibose is one unit. Along the whole West facade facing north and south that's that takes up like 5,600 square feet. Okay. Great, thank you. Any other any other clarifying questions from Dab? Yes, Brendan. Yeah. You know, I think that there's a lot that we need to discuss on this building and.

[57:03] While I am sympathetic to the situation, with the 0 lot line and the situation with the 0 lot line and the red. I do wanna make sure that. You know, as a design review board, that's not really in our. In our per view. Just, so to speak, it is also not really within, I think the guidelines and elements that we need to be discussing. So I'm kind of hoping that we can get. Jump into the. The items that are on our list that we need to. Right. Check through. And again, I'm, sympathetic to the situation. Of the units in the Iraq that will be blocked. It's unfortunate, however, I do have one clarifying question. It's a little bit unclear for the new civic use building.

[58:05] My understanding is that there's just an agreement with the city and St. Julian. But can I get a little more clarification on what are some potential programmatic uses for that space? Bruce, can I? Oh, sorry, Ben. Bruce, could you answer those questions? Like, yeah. Yeah, sure. Again, as they were all intended to be. Meeting, meeting spaces for private nonprofits. Again, to, we didn't want to do anything even from the very beginning for the first discussions of civic use. It couldn't be anything detrimental to the neighborhood or to the existing hotel so they're there are no there is no food banks there's no homeless shelters etc. etc. The private nonprofits and there's a list of them and there were agreements. And the, so there's not.

[59:01] Things like, oh, frat fraternities that might be nonprofit cannot meet there. There's a whole list of things that we would find detrimental. The hotel they the private nonprofits have a preferential ability to schedule things and then if the space is not being reserved then the hotel and book meetings in the same space. So it's if there's any concerns about something that's would form the neighborhood or in the existing hotel there those concerns are not founded. I think I'm asking more from the standpoint of. You know, are these users, Are they sharing? Oh. Sort of the occupant load with. The hotel or the by these people all parking in the garage and coming up in I'm not sort of asking more from the perspective of where are all these people coming from that will be using the space.

[60:05] Well, one thing that's not, unfortunately it's not a huge amount of space, 6,500 square foot ballroom. Again, there's some supporting uses, but that's a little bit larger than what we have currently at the St. Julian as far as the largest room and yeah the I think there's the tenth street connector that is as basically comes across in the library is between the garage entry and what was the the med building. There's the garage. Certainly people would park in the. I think many users would park in the garage and take the elevator off or the stairs up. As they currently do. And so, yeah, the, there could be users that, that are staying at the hotel. It's for the private nonprofits is generally intended to be local local civic group. So being their people are already living here can take mass transit if they drive my understanding as the tenth are garage the garage that's underneath the hotel is one of the more underutilized garages in the city so there's plenty of parking for for other groups coming in.

[61:19] Okay, we're good. Thank you. Okay, so, we have 2 issues that, we've been asked to review. The first one is downtown urban design guidelines. 2.2 C. Regarding the maintenance of human scale rather than monolithic or monumental scale. And that is on the south facing facade. And the other issue is. The site review criteria regarding the entry points. That are not, not within 50 feet of each other. So. But before we get into those 2, I'm wondering if.

[62:04] Dad members have are there other. Criteria that you would like to discuss that you think are relevant to. To our discussion. Okay. Yeah, Todd, I do have one comment. And I think. To answer your question and there was some attention and description of the alleyway facade. Included in the applicant's presentation. But I do think as we're walking around, we have 2 main issues to cover. If we can just have a brief discussion about circulation as it relates to the alley side. Mainly for pedestrians, I just would like to get a little more familiar with. How people are going through the circuit through, diagonally, you know, kind of through the buildings there.

[63:02] Not being completely familiar with the backside of some of the architecture that's just north of this. Proposal, I think it might be helpful just to get a walk through the model and understand how that works spatially. But again, I don't, I think, in terms of material and massing, You know, it seems like. Adequate attention has been given to that, that facade as a principle facade and that is not as an afterthought. Okay. Any other specific criteria that the DA members wanna. I think we should talk about. I have 2 and I Want you to tell me whether you think they're relevant one is.

[64:02] 2.2 B and the other one is 2.1 B. In the design criteria. Is there a way that we can? Pull up those 2 criteria. Is that from your side, Todd, or did you want us to pull that up? And pulled out. If you have it, if you have the design. Criteria that we are. That's in our that's actually in our packet. Do you have that or? Jen, can you, I'll stop sharing. Can you pull those up? I do not have that packet up. I have our checklist pulled up, so let me look for that document or Shannon, is that something that you would have readily available? Hold that up. Thank you very much. Thanks, Colony.

[65:28] It's giving me, I'm having that load right now Todd, so if you can continue on the other ones I can still. Pull it up. Okay, so. Well, we're, while we're pulling that up. If it's okay with, members, I would like to start with. The second issue that we're being asked to review, which is. The Regarding the, defined entry ways.

[66:01] So we, so Matt described the constraints they have. Regarding the building and the flood plain and all of that so that these 2 entry ways at each end of this. Of the structure. Are more than 50 feet apart. And that is a. Under criteria H 3 A. Roman numeral 4. Are dad members comfortable with that? At a distance or do you think that there's another way to do this? That seems like a relatively easy one to. To talk about. Yeah, if maybe if Matt, if you could pull up here. Draw your model again. Okay. Sure. Yeah, let me pull that up and spin around here. Is this a good view? Does this work?

[67:01] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. So we're talking about the distance between the on the right or versus cursor is over to on the left. Yeah. I mean, I From my perspective, that you know he made a pretty convincing technical argument. I wonder, Mad, did you look at maybe having some kind of walk along there on the front and, you know, steps down so that. Right around you can't see my cursor like sort of to the left or where those 2 people are right. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, like a fair. Go ahead. Sure, somewhere like let's say there the challenge It's a good point, Stephen. We, looked at a variety of strategies, including seeing if we could project. Stairs beyond that wall and down to great. But technically because of the floodplain, we're not, there, there's a couple of instances or, criteria that don't allow us to do that one in slow plane and the other is we have to float it so both of those are limiting our ability to add and anything new.

[68:04] If that makes sense. And so what we've tried to do is And hence that access and hence this even though it's more of an egress point enhanced it with vegetation and I mentioned this earlier but just to make sure people got a grasp of this is the conference facility is in the middle and we've added nano walls so that that can open up. I know it's not an access entrance but we're trying to do what we can to supplement based on those limitations. Yeah. So Stephen, are you good with? I'm good with it. You know, I think that you know, obviously the front set back doesn't allow. Certain things to happen that could. But yeah, I don't think it's, you know, out of alignment or out of character with. What else is happening in the street there? Okay. And Matthew Rory.

[69:01] Yeah, just to clarify the principal access to the ground force civic space is obviously on the west, right? Yeah. Correct. Yes, it is accessed from this sort of convergent point, whether you come from the hotel or the, whether you come from the hotel or the garage or otherwise, and then you access it directly to the west side of the building from the hotel or the garage or otherwise and then you access it directly to the west side of the building from that passageway. Yeah, I mean, that from my point of view that nexus of the ramp there, the passageway, the archway, the massing of the building rounding off at that point. It clearly signifies more of the primary entrance and that more easterly the southeast exit looks like a convenience exit to me or convenience access. So I, you know, I would. Agree that if we're just if we're looking at that criteria I think this is acceptable. And, and that this entrance does a good job of mixing circulation and massing and other kind of signifiers that point it as the main primary entrance.

[70:16] If I might add, we are not allowed to add bike parking along this canyon side. Due to the high floodplain, the high hazard zone. There's also not an area for cars to pull over and allow people to exit a vehicle. So it really is a very transient busy street. And there's there's really not an opportunity for anyone to park on this side of the building and walk in. From a midpoint. So truly all of our circulation is coming from that west side. To that point, I mean, would you It's it seems like the characterization is that for the primary for the hotel use and the civic use am I correct in understanding that the most of the foot traffic will come from, let's say, the parking garage or the parking drop off at the Julian.

[71:10] And that there is really no pedestrian drop off design for this component. Direct pedestrian. Drop off. That is that That is correct between Canyon Boulevard and the existing alleyway. There there is no opportunity to allow a drive lane or a drop off lane. That's right. The existing parking garage is above grade so we don't have an opportunity to provide an area where a car could conceivably. Over the parking garage and have a sideline to do so. So the concept here is that all traffic would be coming mainly from the parking garage or from a bicycle or from pedestrian traffic. And I, Matt, that if somebody were taking an Uber lift or, Roger, otherwise they would be likely they would be dropped off at the same Gillian or perhaps further down while not.

[72:05] There are a few options. I mentioned how there are so many there's sort of a spaghetti of circulation, but to Jenna Jen's point there can't really be any car access off of canyon and simply perhaps pedestrian crossing canyon or coming along the sidewalk. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, and I just wanted to add that, you know, that It's interesting the way Boulder has interpreted flood. Rules because while they are federal, rules, they're mandated locally. In other words, they the local municipality actually has jurisdiction too. Override some of them and if there were circumstances they could do that hence New Orleans right you would have nothing there. And so if there are moments, that that wanted to be done and you guys wanted to push for that, that would be within. Folders local jurisdiction they've been reluctant to do that in the past. They sort of like.

[73:06] Their heels in the ground with blood plan issues. But that is within. You know, sort of our local. World if we wanted to do certain things. So getting back to the question about the these 2 entry ways. Are any of you uncomfortable with? The distance. Or can we put that one to bed? Well, I think that there are a couple questions within that question. Not just the distance of the entry. Okay. I think. I think that the, entry, that's on the east on Canyon is. It's primarily egress. I mean, It I think that it is appropriately set back from the street. It's not a primary entrance. It's not something that we want. Necessarily people to be drawn to as an entry.

[74:07] I think that that having that that curve feature and the wider stare. Is inviting to where the entry. Naturally wants to be. The only concern I have is, there's that roof element that's happening, sort of starting, setting up the arches going down that promenade. And it's, it's kind of created a spine and a wall that's severing, and blocking, maybe hiding that entry, the entry doors. And I'm wondering if there's a way that we can that those doors could either that spine wall could be shortened. Or the doors could be pulled out so that they're more visible so that you know if you're coming around that curve you could actually see where the entrance is. And there's you know there's 2 sets of doors there. It's a little bit confusing.

[75:10] I think The way it's, I think that There's that she, our 1 point O one, site plan. Shows the 2 sets of doors. But it's, you know, one doors, the double doors are definitely more prominent. That single door. But yet it's, kind of being hidden by that spine wall. So I, I would suggest. Somehow making that. And is, is that roof element necessary? Is there another way that that could be? Treated as you know celebrating the entry to the civic space instead of kind of blocking and hiding it but making it a little bit more prominent. And then the second part of that question, I think, is had to do with the flood plane or Todd you trying to break those

[76:07] No, go ahead. So, when we're talking about that the wall that's sitting underneath the Juliet balcony in the the doors going into the civic that the operable partition wall I think that that's, I think that's a great way to engage the space on to Kenyon. I mean, you're literally opening up. The walls, you know, to onto that canyon street and I think has fantastic engagement, I would like to see. One thing I think that's really working on the landscaping for the St. Julian is these sort of tiered landscape. Islands and wall landscape walls. Is there a possibility to build some some type of tiered landscape or You know, just to just to break the height of that base wall.

[77:08] To make it feel a little more Again, human scale. Is there a way within that setback in the flood plain to, you know, integrate some planting beds or landscape walls or some type of tier just to kind of soften that. Facade a little bit. Yeah, I just. Can you be more specific for me, which facade you're talking about softening? Cause are we. So underneath. Still talking about the entry ways are we getting into the facade discussion. No, I'm talking about so it there's a question of the South, you know, underneath the operable doors and windows with the Juliet balcony. So, with the awning that they're those white onings that we're looking at that are sticking out in the flood plain.

[78:02] That wall that just straight flat stone wall that's sitting underneath the window bay. There's a way to. You know, bring that floor line, like tier it down with additional landscaping. Right now it's just showing like a patch of. Flat grass. I'm just wondering if there's some way to integrate kind of the planting best you can see on the St. Julian side. Like the just west of the stair. I don't know how to draw on this, otherwise I'd point it out. Can we draw on this? I don't know. Can you see? Is it? So it is John. Oh, okay. It is. You there's the annotate button at the top Stevens doing it. Yeah. Yeah, how do you do that Stephen? Oh, somewhere, where did I see it? At the top. And said annotate. Of course, now I can't clear. So that is considered the high hazard zone. We have reached out. To traffic and researching what landscape would be available to put in that area.

[79:03] We were told we're not allowed to plant anything that would disrupt flow waters or flood waters, excuse me. So we might be able to get away with some minimal grasses, but shrubs and lots of plantings. I am not sure if that is something that we'd be able to do with regards to fixed planters, we've talked internally about. Stepping back, windows a foot or so so that we could have maybe draping plants that go over that wall in that corner right there. And how can we articulate softening that corner with more of a landscape edge but we're very limited on what is allowed within that turf zone that you see on along Canyon right now based on the high hazard zone. But that is something that we're we're looking into what our options might be just to help break up that long wall.

[80:00] Yeah, so I'm looking at this, you know, this nice landscape island. If that was possible to have some type of a tiered. Landscape bed or something to kind of to break up this is just tall and you can see you know compared to a human it's It's a big wall before you start sort of this the engagement here with these operable doors and windows. And then you have. You know, this planting bed, which I just. It's not it doesn't have the same kind of human scale or interaction or whimsy I think that that is really working with with the St. Julian and I would like to see. Maybe something, you know, like these planting beds over here are pulled. Into this. I just, this is pretty high up. It's not really something that people on the sidewalk can experience in any way i mean it's almost a story above your head So I just, I would, I would like to see that.

[81:08] Maybe revisited. That corner of the building is existing. That is parking garage below. So that. Yeah, yeah, just to be clear, Jennifer, you know, on Google Earth, we can see this. So the wall, the stone wall and the test cap already exist and that is essentially the deck of the parking. Right. So that is structured below, correct? That is correct. That's right. So I think that's important just to understand everyone on, and it literally is touching the adjacent building to the east right now. So that's the ability to like I'm actually curious how are you able to carve that stare into it at that location if you're describing. It's so that was anticipated in the original Civic Use building. And so this was already cask in place. There's a void there that can't be seen currently if you pass by it. But that was conceived for the original one when it was built in 2,003 and 4.

[82:09] And then Are there any additional voids that were anticipated along that? No, there were voids for elevators further in the back. In close proximity to this one. And there, if you go down into the garage, you can see a lot of what's going on there, but nothing along the street. Is there. So if just for a second I'll pull up the diagram that I showed earlier. This is really the only structure so you can see that carve out for the scares. And then this carve out here is for the Yeah, can you go and stop? Can you re-share the? We're still seeing the model. Oh, sure. Sorry. Yeah, let me share the screen. Hopefully that will work better. Let's see, does this work now? Yes. Okay, sorry. So these are the structural diagrams I showed earlier. That's the flood plain wall, if you will.

[83:00] And you can see the notch out for the. Stairs on the west side. And then this is a not anticipating the stairs that we're talking about. And then this. Cut out here is really for the. So if I go back to the other one and let me know if you lose me on it. That is what is here. So there's a question about project sauce. These are here. We're not moving them. We're working with them and we actually thought as an opportunity to help set the building back. So, that is there and then we have the planting in front of it. One thing, Brendan that you brought up is, is there perhaps a way to lower this planting? So that's something that we can look at with our landscape architect and see how low can we get it and still make sure that the vegetation can thrive but it's essentially sitting right on the slap. But I didn't mind you were talking about the entry and how we've already internally discussed.

[84:06] How are we can improve. The primary entry and you know, what we might do at that location to increase the. Nature of what entry is and where it is. Talked about maybe introducing a vertical element outside of that thin wall you were discussing. So There's a pair, you know, making a double door and. Maybe even pairing back the curve. The curve room for him so that that's not blocking the entry as much and then it's definitely something that we have been looking at. And we'll continue to do so. We, we agree that, you know, there's an opportunity there to increase the visual nature of what entry looks like outside of the covered roof so that that's something that as you're coming along the sidewalk or canyon that where entry is is is clearly denoted by the architecture and.

[85:09] So that is something we will. Definitely be working. As we take your comments. And and make modifications. Okay. Alright, you're speaking my language. I like it. Okay. Yeah, Brendan and Stu, thank you for that Brendan and the rest of the deity I'm doing these cartoon sketches, but we we agree that this thin wall isn't ideal. So we have subsequent to this looked at strategies as to as mentioned to eliminate that. We're also looking at this vertical expression. And one thing that we're debating internally, we're not quite sure what the right answer is, but Stu alluded to that is should this semicircular volume be so large or if you can imagine in plan here's the exterior wall maybe this vertical expression comes through and this goes over and then this zone can become outdoor space.

[86:05] Right. That invites people in. We're not quite sure, but it's something in there we think might be a good fit. What we're trying to balance is what one of you mentioned earlier is this expression in the 5 century and that's part of the reason why we did that but it also blocked century at the same time so we're trying to find the right balance of signifying entry. But making it welcoming and opening. Or welcoming an open, I should say. Okay. Yeah, I wanted to make a couple suggestions along the same lines. You could look at. And I don't know that this would help, but you could look at this. This roof actually and this all sort of being one. Expression rather than so many parts and pieces. You know, that could help designate that. And the other question, the other thing I thought I had was you know, could it be a way that some of these columns, you know, materially come?

[87:03] Hmm. Right. Down, just help break up that wall. You know, it's obviously just a veneer of you know, sound on there. So that wouldn't be that. I don't know that would help, but maybe some, you know, quick study. I mean, it's like the walls kind of continuation of what's happening in the St. Julian. And then the other thing. Is this zone right? It's grass and I know it's, you know, the flood rules, but again, like I said before, they are community based. So. You know, the only one stopping us from putting benches in here is us, not FEMA. FEMA has rules, right? And they're not but there we can or ride down. It's just the city's been reluctant to do it. And if there's a compelling reason, reluctant to do it. And if there's a compelling reason, maybe we should like, Hey, Really? You know, if we had if we access this space. You know, benches along there or something could be great. You know, is that really gonna Do irreparable damage to our flood situation. You know, Long Canyon, I don't think so.

[88:10] Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Is there a way that we can get that kind of? Recorded as far as, you know, your input, your input helps us to sort of bring that a little. Yeah, I mean, if you, I actually just looked it up on FEMA. I just looked it up 2 min ago. I'm like, oh yeah, it's community based. And that's how it's Like I said, there's plenty of cities in this country that if they, you know, like in New Orleans, if you could only do 50% lifetime. Renovation on your you know building in the floodplain you would never renovate anything in New Orleans right so you can You can do these things. It just has to be coming from. You know collective will and I'm not saying like you know you Just regarding the rules, but if they're simple things. It's really not a big deal, but. Yeah, we're on track. Sorry. So that we don't get too detailed on this. I have right now I have 2 recommendations on this particular issue. One is don't hide the Enter way on the west side. And we've talked about various ways of.

[89:06] Treating that but that's that's the recommendation so we don't want to get any more detailed. On you guys than that just to give you more conceptually what we're thinking. And the second one is softening the straight flat wall underneath the windows. And That's I think that's about as far as we really need to go. I think you guys get the idea. That's being expressed. Yep. I think also, I mean, I really. Was wondering sort of, you know, where the outdoor use. Spaces for the Civic Center and I think the idea of I'm making the arch, exterior space instead of interior space would be a very interesting thing to explore. I think if you can spare this space programmatically from the inside, I think it could be just a really cool balcony that this more engaging, but still.

[90:01] You know, giving that flow to the entry. Hmm. Just. Okay, so is there a potential outdoor use space? Associated with the arch. Down the curve. With the curve, the curve and the arch. Okay, so I would like to move on to this other question because I think that that's. Gonna take some more time and we're We're sort of at a shortage of time at this point. Right. I don't know if Rory or Matthew wanna weigh in on this last. On this. Particular issue or are you guys good with it? With the recommendations that we've come up with. Hello. I think I'm good with it. I mean, the distance of the entry, I don't think is, Really detrimental, to this particular person in this location. I think the fact that the East is actually egress driven, it's actually a benefit to the residential books because they're not having like congregating tree right outside the residential piece.

[91:02] But I do fully echo everybody's conference about this on a rotunda piece on the corner. I think this is a really unique opportunity. To provide some transparency through the wall. And you know, it's unfortunate that the pedestrian He's not has this angle and it's unfortunate that largely it's fronted by back a house trash and whatnot and it ends up kind of shooting at 45 degrees to the next kind of ease in until you cross. Up through to Walmart and then pass through Walmart. That little pedestrian connection, but. This is a huge, you know, connecting back to the library and a huge portion of the bike path. This could be, you know, a really nice opportunity to invite people to use this as kind of a penetrating piece. Into the heart of downtown and there's not a lot of opportunity left. On the wall of canyon to do so. So all everything that they describe not only will help the entry read more clearly but I think opening up and kind of advertising more transparency along.

[92:05] Canon is actually a benefit to kind of the city circulation. Okay. Okay, so, I think we're ready to move on. What I would like to do before I I want to throw something out here that I hope that Well, I have a chance to come back too. But these 2 issues that I Thank are relevant. I just want to. Read them to you and I want you to think about them. And then perhaps the staff can. Weigh in on why they weren't considered. To be relevant to our review. And, why they may or may not be relevant to. From Deb's perspective. So 2 point. 2 B is. Consider the height, mass, and scale of buildings. One in general, building should appear similar in height mass and scale to other buildings in the area.

[93:05] At the same time, it is important to maintain. Hey variety of heights while the actual heights of buildings are of concern the perceived heights of buildings are equally important. 1, 2, and 3 story buildings make up the primary architectural fabric. Of the downtown with taller buildings located. At key intersections. Consider the height. And proportionate buildings to neighborhood structure, neighboring structures. For new structures that I don't think we need to go into that much detail. So that is 2.2 B and then 2.1 B. Is. Dealing with views. It says downtown Boulder is blessed. The exceptional mountain views and projects should be designed to preserve access. To this extraordinary asset. From the public realm and surrounding area.

[94:06] The south and west edges of downtown offer the most spectacular view. So. Those 2 to me seem relevant. But let's. Put those aside for a second. And come back to the first issue that we're. That we need to deal with and then. And then we can come back to those and. At least decide whether or not they're relevant. Okay, sound good. So, downtown urban design guidelines, 2.2 C, maintain human. Scale rather than monolithic or monumental design, avoid large features. Featureless Avoid large features. Facade features a single facade should not exceed 75 feet. So this put this south facing facade. I think as a sort of

[95:02] One particular issue I think is the question. And the 75 foot. Spread I think is the is what we're asked to address, but I think that within the context of that. Is this is does this. Facade hold up well in terms of. Trying to make it. Not one large mass. Okay. Yeah, if I've been itching to get to this one. If you could actually go back to that. Sure. Matt, that kind of oblique view you were just at. Go, yeah, kind of rotate it back. Okay. Yeah, right there. That's good. I think that there's maybe a reaction to kind of the massiveness of it and honestly I think it's the way you guys have treated the these balconies in these columns.

[96:02] And I think that I think it could be more delicate kind of the way the St. Julian has these. Balconies and I understand why you guys wanna have balconies you know for these units but I think It feels a bit massive and you know. I'm not saying you have to follow this data of the, building, but in some ways if you're kind of doing that and you had that first level not having railings and then you were adding, you know, bringing over this element from the St. Julian. Into this facade. I think it would. Tend to push the building back from the street a little bit. Okay. You'd still get your balconies that actually be cheaper. And I think it would, it would actually tie the St. No. Julian back because this really is. Continuation. And that's just kind of my thought, but I feel like it's, it's the, especially like this.

[97:02] He's all made massive. Heavy kind of columns that are flush with this front. Part. That's kind of making it feel kind of, you know, massive and You know, I understand. Everybody wants them. I don't know how much they get used honestly, but Anyways, that was my 2 cents. Okay. Stephen and DAB, do you mind if we explain that one because it's, it's an interesting one because of the structure. Sure. Do you mind if we pull up something for that? Can you see this diagram here? Yeah. On the screen. Okay, great. So this is that facade where you have those frames and this goes back to the structure yet again. And so when you look at these structural grids, if you've mentioned that these red dash lines are essentially the beams.

[98:00] This is gonna be post tension concrete, but that's where the cables will be running. And there are. Columns that these 4 points here. And this this beam, if you will, needs to extend to each one of these columns. And then there needs to be a perimeter beam, if you will, along the facade. And I also wanted to show you, cause these are good points, I also want to show you that challenge. So we have these columns, the facade is set back, which we're trying to address those concerns of set that, but we're limited because of where the columns are located. So we're trying to each one of these columns are slightly different. You don't see that on the facade, but when you look at the structure, you can see how we're reconciling those. So that became a great structural concern. There are some opportunities for instance, you know, on the corner in theory, we might be able to. No. Added out of belt me but that really doesn't take us in the right direction so what so what we said is okay St.

[99:00] Jillian is clearly a monolithic building. It has a basement on top, but is relatively flat. It has a projecting balcony and center to light. The red on the east is more start step back it has carve out but also as projecting balconies can we marry something in between so we tried to take the tone of the stucco from the Stu in and from the eret and blend them together. So we're using the limestone, but then we made these very large opening so it still erodes the mass as much as we recently can. Where we've had a lot of conversations internally about how narrow can make those columns. We might get a few winches, but not much because of the concrete columns that they're cladding. So I don't know if that helps, at least describe the challenges that we have with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I totally, echo, Stephen, what you were saying. I was my initial reaction was the same virtually. I do want to say so you have those columns at the base that are stone. And then as you start going west, they become sort of.

[100:13] Applied facade kind of columns. I feel like there needs to be a little more of a commitment to the solid base and a more of a commitment to. Like the structural integrity of those columns so that they're not just. Applied ribbons on the facade. But if you could kind of carry the weight of the What's indicated as a column and now I do understand that you were trying to maintain the rhythm, within that balcony with, irregular spacing of the column layout. Hmm. However, I do think there can be, there just needs to be. Even a slight relief. On the facade. You know, for example, like you, when you have a section cut through the balconies.

[101:07] On the, on the packet, submittal packet. The, detail blowup of that section cut doesn't have. The stone you know, partial height wall with the, with the shorter balcony rail on top. It's actually just more transparent and, and rail. I think that there's a, there's sort of a tricky and Weird transition between the cap of the stone at the base. And then where those balcony begin that there needs to be some kind of there needs to be more separation and more relief. That they're really kind of almost in the same plane. And maybe looking at extending the balcony all the way down to the cap of the stone. Might help sort of separate those. You know you have the because I when you look at that if you zoom out and you're looking at canyon street and there's a really nice sort of horizontality along that whole street that is kind of working.

[102:16] But there's sort of a lack of commitment maybe on this once you start going up into the. Second stories because it doesn't have even even a slight bit of relief. Between the 2 facades I think would be helpful. Yeah, I mean, maybe, did you guys try round columns? Like. Not like, you know, ornate, but just really simple round. You know, might really. You might be able to capture all of the structure you need within the round. Yeah. Column. I don't know. You guys are struggling with this, so I totally No, no, I think both of you are bringing up great points where, you know, as I think maybe Shannon mentioned at the beginning or perhaps there's Colonia, I can't remember, but we're early on. This is where we are.

[103:07] And I think, you know, They're good points about how much relief do you really need? Is it 4 inches? Is it 6? Is it 2 feet? Should this railing come down? How do we make it lighter? Can the columns get smaller, whether it's circular or chantered. things are notched, I guess. I think those are all things that we have yet to really dial in, but they're really good points. This isn't really, it's sort of a question about Canyon, but one, item that we have done on the alley and part of what we're trying to do is not make every facade the same, but make them part of the same family. And so when we're on the alley, what we did and these are the planters as a reminder, but we have the zinc. Here that might break down that frame and maybe there's a way to make it lighter. I don't even know if that's a good idea.

[104:00] Okay. So I'm throwing out a little bit of a crazy idea there, but it could be a way to break up the frame, so maybe the larger frame reads heavier, but the zinc, maybe the larger frame reads heavier, but the zinc starts to help make it recede, but the zinc starts to help make it recede and feel lighter. Those are some of those ideas that we're kicking around internally that we just haven't gotten to yet. Sure. Yeah. You could pull the face of those columns. Maybe to align with where the stone walls are now and then treat the stone below the railing differently. Right, right. You could. Man, I have a radical question for you. Since you mentioned. This sort of trying to blend these 2 buildings. So the building to the east has these sort of cool setbacks. Going up to 4 floors. So is it possible that you could Maintain the integrity of the columns that you have to that sort of form this kind of structure of the building.

[105:02] And do set backs like. The building to the east. In other words. Fluor, but like floor by floor, you sort of give up. The lead column and you go to the back column. So that you're stepping up. Either once or twice to get to the top of the building. Cause this, because one of the things that makes this look massive to me. Is that you've got this sort of solid wall. And this the building to the east is really breaks that up. Not only from the front but also from the side so it built so it it goes it does the same thing from the side Okay, and that I know is a A clear-cut architectural feature that we look for. In almost every building that we're.

[106:02] That were reviewing. And so. Your columns may limit that to some extent. But I'm wondering if that possible. And I, I just want to interject, Todd, just because I think this is relevant point to bring this up. You know, the building to the east is a residential building with the residential penthouse. These are hotel. Yeah. Excuse me, hotel rooms. That also programmatically not to structurally need to stack. So I don't, I will do what I do sometimes here to make things more confusing for everyone is disagree. I don't think we should be. Dissuading people from having what I would say is a strong facade or a A facade that uses a minimal palette over adding more materials and decorating small episodes here and there.

[107:02] So just for different. Point of view, I think I would like to voice. You know, I wouldn't Go to great extremes or advise the applicants to start chipping away at the massing of this building. I mean, it is hotel rooms they need to stack. And there's a certain monotony to that. Program that requires things to have this vertical presence. I think I don't think our president would be. You know, I would hesitate to say. Take as your precedent the residential building that's next door and draw from that I think you have to draw more you have to favor more from the Julian St. Yeah. Julian, that's part that's part of its Complex and You know, I think the technical question we're looking at here is to kind of opine on this 75 foot.

[108:04] Limit, which is in strong enshrined in the design guidelines. And I would say this is an example both practical because of the structure and visually where I feel like the 75 is an arbitrary number. What I think is important here is there is a strong rhythm. The St. Julian has a very strong rhythm as well. You can see it just there to the west. This is a rhythm with different elements of architecture, but I think. I just wanna speak, you know. In support of having It's okay to have a strong massing sometimes. And sometimes the contrast of the strong massing next to a building within eroded massing is a nice relief. So. Yeah, that's just not so organized thoughts, but that's some of them. Yeah, I tend to agree with Matthew. I mean, an older iteration of this board, you still like talking back to the hotel.

[109:16] Okay. You know, if you're a historic family moving to a western town, you built an edifice that occupied the block and even shy away from it or try to make it cute and break it into a little mini store from facades. You owned it and that there's kind of a lacking building stock. That continues to kinda honor that tradition. Okay. I also tend to think, you know, I think the diagram speaks for itself. The full canyon elevation where we're seeing a significant portion of both. You're at building and This existing St. Julian are, you know, within a foot 2 foot, you know, kind of these 86 and change versus 87 and change as far as the facade expression. So I don't think the 75, you know, again, it's I agree, it's kind of an arbitrary number and we're working with a structural grid of logic that was set up. I think for me, where it falls apart, the entire composition of this facade is the southwest corner.

[110:05] Like once we kind of get past the 3 strong bays that have lot of structural logic and there's quite a bit of proportional logic I'd argue I mean I understand that your stone cap date on the slightly lower than the, but it's kind of that. There. The window opening height and then you know what that allows you to do because you're trying to press these floors in to fit in the height limit. That's why you're using PT. It allows you to kind of have equivalent proportions for that X layer. So each of those stories, you know, story 2 and 3, if you will, I guess, technically 3 and 4 with the mezzanine. You know, are kind of reading equivalent as opposed to trying to drag something up and then you're gonna kinda throw off the balance of the vertical layering here. But then we get to this to the left of these 30 days and this just looks unfinished to me. Like there's no terminus on the roof structure. The railings change directions. They go vertical versus horizontal. We're trying to like echo this round feature up into the balconies which we're already kind of talking about.

[111:08] You know, this idea of it being exciting to lock off this round feature. And then it starts to beg the question to me that, you know, again, I don't wanna take away a program or anything, so kind of floor plan aside. If not only were you were talking about eliminating the rotunda aspect on the ground floor, but if we actually pushed back. The canyon South facade once we were left of that last line stone column and really allowed that 3 bay, 86, 37 foot 10 block to be proud. To kind of read more consistent with, you know, the kind of break in massing on the threat and kind of where the intent of the code is. Is you know even though we're calling that the 87 10 vertical side I would argue because of the columns and railings, everything that's going up to the left of it, it's actually much more like a hundred foot or a hundred 10 foot facade.

[112:02] And is there any ability? I mean, it's all kind of pre function space there. I guess there's one little bay that's in side of your, actual kind of civic ballroom. But you know if you if it was step back several feet almost to mimic how far back you are on the east edge for where the egress stores are. One, it would kind of further that move of this kind of outdoor space and it would kind of honor Todd's earlier read of section 2 to where we want to promote kind of outdoor spaces that have you know public view to mountains and things. So now it wouldn't just be this kind of half circle outdoor gathering or maybe have some small. Pattio space 5 or 6 feet deep. That overlooked the sidewalk and it would achieve kind of further identifying this 3 bay, 87 foot 10 facade as the limit of the extent of this facade. Like cut this this platform. So. Hey, Stephen, hold, hold that thought for a second. So Rory, do you have a Do you have a specific recommendation that you can?

[113:04] That's one summarizes. Yeah, my recommendation, my recommendation to honor like, 75 foot is somewhat arbitrary. The 87 foot 10 feels it feels consistent with the context. Right. But I would argue that 87 foot 10 stops here. And so I think this is right now more like a hundred plus facade and all of that could push back. Now I understand there's some columns and I understand the nature of PT. And so is there a way to erode these columns, make them as minimal, grab your PT structure where you need them. This becomes some sort of trellis lattice structure. Maybe it pulls off of this roof as someone has suggested earlier or not, but can you just disintegrate it in a way that would still allow the facade to step back so that this is really reading as the building block. Based in Canada. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[114:01] It makes sense, Matthew. Yeah. How did you achieve the setback on the, without a column? Is that because it's been planned to have that job? At the Southeast corner. Yeah, the Commonwealth, the Column Bay on the East gets much smaller if I popped up that plane real quick. You'll see that this is just a different column base. So we were cantilevering off of that column in both directions. But this, is pretty well close to the edge of that column day. I mean, it would be epic if you could, like I understand transfer, I mean transfers are possible. And you can upset some beams potentially too if you don't wanna dig into the parking garage. And they could become planters or whatever, but to me this corner is so it's been a part of all of this discussion for entry for transparency from Canyon and now it's becoming a key player in my opinion. Kind of really allowing this facade to sing. So if there's anywhere else where spending enough money to find a structural gymnast, they can do something.

[115:01] It'd be amazing if you could road this point for a minute. And also I would just add, you know, in. No. Eroding it, eroding it, but also or reorganizing it, you know, cause what I think what I'm synthesizing from a few different observations is that and you can kind of see it, you know, from 3D views from the packet and everything. It, it's the most prominent corner, but it feels like the least organized facade on the whole, 4 sides of the building. Probably because of its complexity, it's absorbing several programs over several stories. You know, my if we're if we're sticking strictly with what the purview here talking about the facade, the monumentality of the facade. I actually think that part as well organized and speaks well for the building and this part is a little bit left.

[116:03] Undesigned by comparison. Or unresolved by comparison, I should say. I think also continuing as we're if we're gonna just keep going east or yeah West sorry. Yeah. I think, but I would like to also address that bridge element. I know programmatically behind where zinc is cool. I'm I think that this is gonna be it you know if if it is followed through as to actually be san, which I know is expensive. And it could be pretty cool, if it is followed through as to actually be sync, which I know is expensive, it could be pretty cool, but I just wonder it's again sort of it's So different from the St. Julian, but it's kind of half tying into the architecture of the. Of this new element of the new building I just wonder if it could just be something totally different and unique.

[117:01] You know, more, more glazing or lighter or, just something that's, that signifies. Can you know a connection to something existing and that it could be sort of different i'm not sure if the zinc is working on the end connecting to the St. Yeah, I'm in full agreement. Julian. Connection needs to be like a little bit. I think that connection needs to be studied and, and detailed and celebrated maybe a little bit more and I'm not sure if the stone coming up like a chimney is. I don't know, maybe that's. Yes, yeah. I'm curious, why is that not just all glass? I mean, I understand and they make Molly inmates and you can back paint glass if it's a storage room or something but to me the intent that you got about halfway on this is to make it a transparent link so that it's just kind of.

[118:10] Okay. It becomes as light and airy and glassy as possible. And it lets the 2 individual facilities read as clear buildings. What's unfortunate is actually the ally facade has the full glass treatment and I don't know enough about the building. To know if you could flip the stare and put, you know, kind of that service window punch. Component tree on the north side or if that's a function of existing always an existing vertical circulation but even still I think you could probably just blaze that hold down sod and treat some more inmates to get some partitions to interrupt it. And look at that PIN glass in some cases, it kind of just make it go away, like just kind of. Completely transparent. You're. Would you accept? The thought if we did all glazing if we had to have some spandrel in there to accommodate. A space that. Doesn't want to be glazed is that language.

[119:03] Are you saying, I mean, there's, it looked like there was a storage room that doesn't, that doesn't have the glazing, you know, if the storage room could be. Relocated or, like you said, have some, have some not spanned role, but. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we can. Okay, or frosted plants or something, you know. Right. Like if you paint Surface 4, but leave the other 3 surfaces transparent and picking a color that almost kind of. You wouldn't quite know that you can't see into it unless it was night or something. Is it possible to flip the stair to the north and in this to preserve as much transparency from kind of the canyon visibility as opposed to you know the north facade here is buried in an alley. Or is that? Yeah. Yeah, Rory, if you could see Stacey's probably. Smoking because we have looked at this bridge over and over and over again.

[120:00] Yes. Okay. It is a very, very challenging condition. We've looked at it so many different ways and what we've tried to do is try to make it as transparent as possible. Arguably almost not exactly mediate, but just. Not accelerate itself, it's supposed to go away and so it's not supposed to be part of St. Julian. The original of St. Julian or the annex. We did happen to use the zinc. Because that felt appropriate but i think our goal is to make that facade go away so if we go back to this this facade to your point about can we get rid of these horizontals that's something that we're exploring can we continue to expand the glass over. I think that is something that we have to explore as well. And even when it comes down to the reform. We have, the skinning same metal roof that intersects the clay tile roof. That's something that we're looking at. Try to simplify as well. So all of those elements you guys are on to something that we're concerned with too and trying to refine.

[121:07] And then I think the last comment that I was gonna make about the metal treatment is that there seems to be, it's the, the mechanical screening. I just wonder, if that if the mechanical screen, you know, if we're talking about some level of design hierarchy, if the mechanical screen deserves to have this really cool zinc material or kind of be something like a lighter metal that is blends in with the sky a little bit better. Reflective. Yeah, more reflective. I think the mechanical screens that are kind of lighter, and, live materials can kind of end up blending in and disappearing a little bit more. But right now it's in the hierarchy, it's kind of as, as prominent as, the cool.

[122:01] Treatment of the facades that might be studied. So I, it sounds like. Dab members are kind of in agreement on. How to approach this and what your recommendations might be. So I feel like I need to summarize. So we that we can sort of wrap this up. Do any of you want to try to summarize where we are? Cause I'm not sure. Okay. Got it. So no, no, no discussion until we summarize where we are. Okay. I would say I can try. I'll attempt to try. That. That we're the 75 foot overall length is not. Particularly relevant in this. Circumstance. It's more about balance. Thank you.

[123:01] Kind of the massiveness. And the structural issues that you have. There seems to be a lot of agreement. That really this whole thing is about creating this. Massage through here that's really great and you gotta nail it and it takes some Like right now it's this kind of initial over design and maybe it needs to get a lot simpler. And more elegant. And, you know. What are you pointing to, Stephen? Tell me, tell me which part you're pointing to. Yeah, they use some fancy word there, massage. Yeah. This. This. The French passage is this right here. Perfect. The passage, the passage, right? Okay. So you're saying that. Okay. And, and maybe, you know, if all of this gets, this is all simplified, but there seems to be agreement that you know, this you know, there's some structural issues and maybe what's really making this feel massive is that kind of fussiness of what's going on.

[124:03] You know, all on here right now. Yeah, I think to summarize that would be the primary 87 foot length. But the building block we saw does not appear to be generally of concern. No. The southwest corner beyond that, I think. Without exception all of that. Takes some issue or another with and deserves addition. Okay, I'm still missing a recommendation. Okay. Keep working. You're, you're almost there. Yeah. The recommendation. I think it's too. Something that something that the planning board can. Look at and say have they met this Have they satisfied this recommendation? In particular to the length component. Is what you're fishing for, right. Well, You said the length. I think that I think. The recommendation regarding the length is it's not an issue.

[125:07] Yeah. We're good with that. There's some other things that need to be. That you would recommend that. That maybe. Because the length isn't really an issue. There may be some other things that that could be. Mitigated or modified in order to. Yeah. Yes, simplifying or reorganizing the Southwest quadrant of the building. And that kind of dovetails and relates to both of the 2 items. We were tasked with looking at today. You know, the one about the public entry and visibility of entry, this directly affects that. This directly impacts the Second criteria of the overall building length and massing and height. So I think the Southwest, you know, quadrant. Okay. Okay. I think it's just simplifying. I think it's. Okay. Yeah, that's too complicated.

[126:14] Okay. In terms of just architectural expression, massing. Transparency is kind of the weakest weaker corner of the building I would say without without insulting anyone, take that don't want to take that the wrong way but it But obviously, It's still an area that they're actively working on too. So it kind of shows. And, So, so let me ask Dab, members this, if they If they took the structural. And design features from. The rest of the facade to the east. And they applied that to the West. The big building. To that western corner. Would that then make it? No, the opposite. Yeah. No, it's the opposite. Yeah. The opposite. It's the opposite. We're talking about Shedding, shedding some of the architecture. Mass bulk and demonstration. From Southwest.

[127:08] Yep. From the southwest corner. Okay. Right. Like even like this overhang, right? Like if this was more. Victorian where it's just wrapping and there's no over I mean it's just and these you know, these are kind of, you just got a lot of stuff going on, right? Okay, right. And it's searching for one voice. And you're, you know, I think you guys get it. It's just where you're at. Okay, I I think that makes more sense. Okay, so let's stop there because we're kind of. We're now into the like 6 20 to 6 30 range. And see if there are any other. Design issues that you all want to raise. Materiality or not to not to put any ideas in your. In your heads, but is there anything else that we should talk about. That are relevant to this discussion.

[128:08] I just think it's worth the study, you know, the tendency in this whole part of holders to like. You. Have so many materials going on. I mean, I almost like to see what. If you know maybe do sketch up real quick like turn that flagstone off here that might actually I don't know it just it There's some, I mean, the, per example, we got class. We got, I mean, there's like 8 different materials going on. And it Again, it's like simple, simple, simple. Yeah, the layer cake, the tendency for the layer cake buildings that came out of this whole development. I'm not sure as stood the test of time. Yeah. I think the last thing that I would like to add is If you're looking at the North elevation, if you are going to have a lot of people coming in from from the north coming from walnut side.

[129:04] That that corner treatment. I mean, I like the way that there's the angle that again it's like the nod to the to the curve they had you have the angled wall that's directing you into this pathway and the arches and I just want to be sure that the facade that's on the ground floor the Ali is not. So back of house looking. That it. Yeah, it's interesting. That's actually the visual terminus to the connection. Up to You come down on the side of our taco there and straight shot through that precedent arch that they were sharing. And you straight down the, you're just staring at this blank kind of receiving all. Is there some way to make this like a visual terminus that's actually exciting and encourages? People to use this. These little cuts through the city grid, these are gems especially for bikers and pedestrians, like to not have to skirt the entire block.

[130:00] And to make these as inviting as possible is in. We get very few opportunities in the city to create these types of pedestrian links. So beautifying them. And I think you have to be really careful too because Tenth Street. Is has the necessary evil of. You know, backup house for the St. Julian. I was just down there on Saturday and it's, there is, it looks like there is a dumpster area for the St. Julian but all the dumpsters were out on Tenth Street. And delivery trucks and all the, you know, It's tenth street is not a great experience. So to make. Like Roy said, the terminus of this pedestrian experience. Something that guides you into this.

[131:03] Passage. Into the civic. Center promenade or whatever Stephen called it. Firstage, the massage. Yeah. Okay. I think that's, it's just. Important to keep an eye on. On that north elevation as well. And you know, just to jack on to the passage thing, what, you know, what they do in France in this circumstances. They actually would glaze most of this. Corridor and the reason for that is that It activates that whole space. And I would, and think about that a little bit because we don't want this to be a place where homeless people want to gather and hang out there and actually if there's more glazing on and over in this area. You'll have more eyes on this and people won't feel as comfortable just kinda. Milling around there. Okay. Well, and it's almost set up for it. You have this pre function lobby that almost extends to the north facade that could be like this beautiful look into the ballroom. But then we just have some sort of stare that blocked the program that interrupts it there. So I don't know if there's an opportunity to kind of.

[132:05] Link that visually and actually make this. More exciting. Yeah. And, the space, I mean, bring the party out here. Right. Right into the restrooms. Okay. Yeah. Let me. Let me jump in here if I can, cause I, I'm concerned that we need to tie these things to. The specific criteria. And we're. I think we're starting to jump around a little bit. Well, I think it. And it's criteria too with human scale. I mean, I think it's making sure that pedestrian experience is. Yeah. You know, it's comfortable and And, you know, guiding people. Through that space. Because that is, like I said, people are gonna be approaching this building from the north. Primarily.

[133:00] Okay, I, we just really need at this point to tie these things to. Specific criteria that we can reference. Okay. And the recommendations. Yeah, I, I think it's the same criteria as the South facade as far as the Northwest side needs pedestrian kind of treatment to garner pedestrian scale. And visual interest. Okay, so. What are. Taiwani is raising your finger like she's gonna educate us here. In an effort to summarize. The minutes. And how that's gonna get sorted. If this is an addition on top of what staff has asked for key issues. As we go through, we're gonna need to have the criteria that's addressed. That you wanna see if it's the human scale element. 2.1. We need that and then a summary that we can really summarize for planning board. If there's one for the alley elevation. I know because you these are starting to blend together materiality alley elevation and human scale detailing.

[134:06] I'd like to separate those out, get them summarized, so that when they're the minutes are taken, it's really easy to grab those out of the conversation. I mean, I think it ties directly into the second of our 2 key issues. The building site and public realm interface. It just wasn't listed by staff. We were only tasked to look at Kenyon, I think. And the addition would be same criteria. But North facade. Yeah. Yeah, North and the pedestrian, This is, you know, this area here is for sure a public way. And the more is, I mean, thing about like where 1010 brasserie is, right? You have those great windows, you can see people eating along there and stuff. And right now you have the bathrooms which is gonna make this a great place. To do things that are. Great right now. Where do you get the eyes, you know, till Jane Jacobs stuff?

[135:06] We get eyes on that. This is a street you've created. And so you know, you want people hanging out here before they're doing an event and You know. And that will activate it. Yeah. So Stephen, without getting in overly detailed about this, what What kinds of recommendations are you looking at? In general. I would say make sure that along this passage that the. Program in the building supports a pedestrian and public. Public private interface. You know, which I don't think the bathroom is doing. Okay. Yes. I agree. And that's straight from the criteria C subsection one avoid large featureless facade surfaces. Right. So, summarize that all the recommendations you have for that particular one together in a group, cause right now there's been a little bit of summarization and a little bit here.

[136:09] In there. So as this conversation for this particular one winds down, Todd, that's what we're going to need is a kind of. Summarization that encapsulates the different discussion points. Go on. Right. Okay. Matt, were you guys, were you guys offered the opportunity to redesign the entry into the parking garage? I had always assumed when this civic site got developed that they would also address what to me it looks like a temporary. Gable open air roof into the parking garage. Is that not there's no scope that extends up there? It wasn't something that the city nor St. Julian asked us to do, nor, Cage, it technically it's part of the city, but none of the none of those groups have asked us to do so. Okay, that's unfortunate. It feels like this is the opportunity. Yeah, replace that with a more permanent looking structure that actually adds to the pedestrian experience along Walnut there.

[137:14] Yeah, I mean from Pearl to Canyon, it could be this really great. Wait a block. Yeah, like overhead structures, it's built into the entry to the garage. There's lights. It's like it feels nice. Yeah, it's a super cool place. To stroll, you know. Let's see. So I. I, I think I'd like to keep you guys from brainstorming here. Yeah. Yeah. No more additions. Okay. If that's possible. It would be funded for. The applicant to invite us all over for a brainstorming session informally. Okay. Yeah. Well, we couldn't do that though. You couldn't do that as a group, but it would certainly be fun. So I feel like we're. 30 min over our when we thought we were going to wrap up.

[138:05] And I'd like to wrap this up now if we can. So if. I don't know that there's any more that we need to talk about. I think it's going to be a little bit of a challenge to summarize. But can we wrap up? The discussion. Of the items that we've been discussing. And then I do actually want to go back. And ask either the staff or the or DAB. Where the 2 questions that I brought up. Are relevant. Are you getting that on those 2 questions? Why did you bring them up? Is it you think the building is too high because of the as reference wanted to. Well. That neighbors concerns or is it?

[139:01] I'm trying, I'm trying to be responsive to the neighbor's concern because I think That as a as an advisory board if we're going to have. Public involvement, which we which we are required to do that we have to be somewhat responsive to it. Okay. To the extent we can. So. What I tried to do before we actually got was go through all the criteria and see if any of the criteria. Tied in with any of the comments that we received from. The neighbors. And it seems to me that those 2 that I mentioned do. One is views and the other is the mass. And scale of the building. Which includes the built where the building is too close to the lot lines, whether it's push too far. Up towards canyon weather. The structure on top is Intrusive. Whether they're ways to preserve.

[140:07] Their views through architectural. I mean, I think I think I had that. Design. Features. But the, but the question really is, are those 2, are those 2 things relevant? First of all, are they relevant? Second, if they're relevant, then Is there anything, are there any, is there anything we can do? As a design advisory board to address those things. I think that I there was one suggestion that I had of changing the material of the pertinence, the mechanical screening. To lighten that up so it doesn't appear to be part of the building and adding to the height of it. I think that that addresses a concern. That, that we had in public comment. And I, and I think that, this situation with the blocking views.

[141:09] It's on fortunate and I think that that is something that I feel like it falls on. The shoulders of the developers of the. I mean, I think that I don't necessarily think that that it's the St. Julian's responsibility. To fix the issue that was created, I think, by in the development of the RET. Yeah, and maybe any board, or wherever they. I think, I think planning staff would say that. Maybe more politically correct and. Well, let's if it's okay, let's ask them. But I have a Todd, I have one response to the 2 criteria you brought up. One of them in particular.

[142:00] Yeah. And and I could be corrected on the verbiage. But it's intended to protect view corridors from public. From the public. From public ways. And I think just technically it doesn't apply in this situation, although it's it's unfortunate. I'm very sensitive to the other property owners. Concerns about the development. If this development is by rights. I don't think that criteria applies here because We were discussing in the public comment. Alluded to concerns about views from private residences. You know, within a development. And I just, so I think that one criteria brought up if you're asking us if we should. Should include them in some responsive way. I don't know that that one technically applies because that is really intended to be.

[143:06] Right. You know, from more public oriented spaces, not from each. Private domain. I could be misinterpreting that and if anyone wants to, you know. I mean, I would. Correct me or offer different opinion. I just I think it's technically it would be a stretch to apply that criteria to. Private residential concerns from a public, from a private space. Hi. I mean, I think that I think that. We're talking about urban density here too. I mean, this, this is a downtown urban area. Where you are allowed to build right up to your lot line and not have any step back. I think that the space that's been given up already is generous. And I also think that like having more visitors come into this part of downtown is going to help all those restaurants and I think it's a great I think it's a great use and a great addition.

[144:03] For that area. I'm, I think I'm happy with. Adding that. Can I can I ask the staff? Why those 2 criteria were not. Find. Go ahead. So the public view shed one is generally intended from. Areas that everybody can enjoy. So whether it's coming through that walkway that you can then see the flat irons from the peripheral areas or the open areas on site. Yes, it's very difficult to protect every private view shed. In general, some of our newer plans, we like to identify where those public view sheds are, which ones we want to really protect because It helps to clear that. That confusion up, but, I'd say in, in this instance, this particular area in the DT 4 and.

[145:02] And through canyon larger this Listen, this environment was really anticipated for. Larger buildings, this mass and scale. In general, as you look across this building here and. Some of the other heights of the adjacent buildings. They're very similar. There's some adjustments to setbacks. Here in there, but footprint, overall height, and some of the other details are pretty in keeping with that. That block where we see in downtown where there's more adjustment and more of a a finer grain look at residential versus, adjacent to commercial uses is in that interface zone. And blocks that are primarily residential outside of the kind of the urban core. Those tend to have more of the Step backs and floor adjustments and that type of thing. But that I would say that, that's staff's approach to looking at it is, you know, public view sheds in the kind of area around those.

[146:07] I'd say this particular property is still maintaining that from that walkway and that kind of primary views to the park. And to the flat irons. And then on the other, on your other guideline that you were wondering about. There's. There's a variety of step backs here on this building and I think it's a 2 part thing. One they're trying to work with existing structure on an existing building that provides a another level of constraint that most of the new construction is not experiencing but that they're working with different setbacks in those balconies and then with the added. Recommendations from the board about this western edge and how they can. Start to improve that. That I think addresses some of that proportioning and other things that we were concerned about.

[147:02] Well, okay, I mean, I, I don't agree, but, I understand where it's coming from. Hmm. But I can confirm though, we did look up staff able to confirm that in the adjacent residential building, they are a double, it's a double loaded corridor. There's not a a central unit that has only western facing so there's not a particular unit that's totally cut off. Right. It's either. Pacing units, south facing units. And so hopefully. With the adjustments that are made here. The, you know, if the board feels like they want to look at some additional modulation to the massing and some recommendations on that. The, your what, you're absolutely welcome to do that. I think on the north side, that's a totally different condition, right? Ali facing You might have. Well, I was, I did take the time this afternoon to. Zillow these addresses, some of these addresses.

[148:01] Yeah. Just to see what the view is like from inside. And, and I think the building. Of course. It could be. Could be designed in a way that that better preserves those views. But if you, if you go on, and you would use Zillow some of the addresses. And invite yourself into these places, you can see that. That there are opportunities to do that. That seems to me one of the things that that Architects are so skilled at doing so. But I just, I wholeheartedly do not believe that it is the this developments responsibility to. Yeah, it makes it an arms race. Okay. To preserve the. Value of those units. You know, When this building was built, there there was always a potential that there would be a forced story. Structure blocking those. Alchemy.

[149:03] Yeah, I mean, I would take it one step further. If, if we. May that recommendation we would be in a sense it'd be taking, you know, be a takings issue where we're like seeing as policy that the rules we have in place don't. Apply and we should you know have some other standard. Right. Well, and it would suggest that it's an arms race of development that whoever builds first And most quickly, all of a sudden you have to now respect everything they've done. That's why zoning exists and you. They knew full well when they designed that building. What context they were in. If anything, these people should be stuck that they got to enjoy those views for as long as they have because it's been caught up in this, you know. Approvals and kind of. Economic development. You know, I get it. I mean, it's a natural response to be emotional about the loss of an incredible asset like that. But to to look at DAV to find something in the code or even just you know, kind of express a personal opinion about how to preserve those views.

[150:09] I don't think this is the appropriate. Board nor venue for it. I mean, I loved the the deck on the West End tavern. It's like my favorite place to go. Okay. Yeah. Hello. There's a building totally blocking the flat iron view. It's just, we got you enjoy that view for a while. Well, but they, but I'm glad you brought that up because they did make concessions. Right. You mean just in this. They did make design concessions. So I, I think what I'm, one of the things I'm sort of getting at is I think that That we represent the community. We meaning the board. But how is the builder on the same, not part of our community. How are they different than? Okay. Well, they they are but but the applicant has their architects that they've. Hired to who represent them.

[151:09] Thank you. We don't represent them. We represent the the broader community. Yes. Right. I, I mean, I would somewhat disagree and say that we, we represent the design guidelines. And any any authority we have to advise anyone should be Done. First in the interest of understanding our guidelines understanding the constraints that the broader community. Is bound to under the zoning rules. So I think our commitment would be first to representing what and interpreting what those rules are. Okay. Before advocating for one property developer over another. Which is what we'd be doing really. To be asking 1 One developer to not do something that they absolutely can do by rights because of another.

[152:03] Well, the advisory board, so we're doing this within the context of the guidelines but were not. We're. Perfectly within our purview to. Use the guidelines to make suggestions. Well, I mean. Right. Okay, our suggestions are how to integrate this into the fabric of this downtown area that we're looking at it on a macro level, not a micro level of someone's balcony. That we need to figure out how this integrates with the guidelines and with. The fabric of what's happening in downtown. The downtown area. Yeah, in the corners, I mean, there's like the where the building steps back in the Southeast corner preserves. The window on that second level that again did not need to be done. That that location structure happens to work in that location. I was. Those corner views are still preserved. I would argue it's more of a privacy consideration and if we wanted to open a whole can.

[153:04] Which I really want to avoid. It would be about evaluating which windows have cross views from the hotel suites into. Okay. These private homes and you know I noticed Matt when you were orbiting the model that there's some little corner windows there and again I hate to open a can here. Okay. I realize that's a nice treatment for facade architecturally the corner likes gonna feel fantastic but these are maybe smaller concessions. Okay. In an effort to you know demonstrate a commitment to addressing the context and the concerns of the neighbors that like, how much benefit is that temporary guest getting out of that side window versus the full time resident who now doesn't have nightly guests peering into there, but I assume is living in on that corner. Right. I mean, from an urban design perspective, these 2 buildings should be joined. Yeah. Hmm. Right. You know, I mean, that's a right way to do it is to join the 2 buildings.

[154:01] And the building direct should have been built to have that happen in the future. Which 2 buildings? The red and this the new tower could technically share the same wall, you know. Yeah. And, If you're Yeah, they should bearing a wall. And instead. Colonia, you had your hand up and Jennifer had had her hand up. I was just gonna say in general, for the board. We know that we've had other projects where there is a difference of opinion. Between our other staff and and the board or individual members of the board. I think one of the best ways for us to record this when we get to the summarization point is We've always done where most of the board feels one way that's part of the recommendation, but we've noted that there might be a difference of opinion. Yeah, no fair enough. Yeah. Within that summary too. So. Important to just when we do the summary think of that to Todd as far as

[155:00] We want to be able to acknowledge the voices in the room. As part of that. But I Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and I think, everyone is very sensitive. I mean, the fact that it is a sensitive topic, I mean the fact that it is a sensitive topic, it really this issue is going to go way over the head of DAB and B, fall right in the lap of planning and I don't envy the planning board or the property developers or the homeowners. This situation because it is it is truly unfortunate and I think we're all very very sensitive of it which is why it brings up emotion. I would just advocate I don't I don't know that we'd find consensus on the board to create a judgment or recommendation on an issue that clearly is going to have the community very activated on very many different levels and the discussion is is has only begun. I don't think we could provide a valuable statement from a design perspective beyond what we were tasked to do tonight on on the the actionable items we can advise on.

[156:09] I mean, the only thing is, you know, from the zoning perspective. Legally, they are allowed to, you know, their zone to be able to build their building. Right up to the east property line. So, I mean, architecturally and design wise and by code, that is allowed. Well, I think I understand. So as a professionals. Those are within the rule. It's it's the conversation that needs to happen later with planning board like you said that I don't that I don't necessarily envy, but I think from the perspective of design professionals, We can only look at it from the code and zoning. Right. And I would go so far as to commend this project for. What they've actually tried to do. Because they didn't need to. Agreed.

[157:00] Okay. Jennifer, you had your hand up. I don't wanna. Ignore you. Yeah. Okay. Oh no no, it's fine. It might not be as relevant now, but I did just want to remind the board that this building truly has been a partnership. With the city with the planning board with Kjid, City of Boulder, this has been an countless task force and and many many meetings over the last 15 years and there's been a lot of thought and a lot of dedication and a lot of lot put into this structure so it's it's not just St. Julian trying to build an addition on their hotel. It truly is meant to be a collaborative effort. And it's it's coming from a long line of history and of negotiation. So moving forward, you know, with comments and moving into planning and what may or may not be allowed. I just wanted to remind the board that it truly is a collaborative effort between Cajun, between the city and between St.

[158:00] Julian partners. The And it's meant to be something that can be shared by all and not necessarily. One developers. A new addition. So just want to remind the board that. Thank you. Yeah, it's coming across as a very collaborative. Effort. So thank you. And I think I appreciate you saying that. I think my concern is that. We've been through at least at one situation where I think there was a Higher expectation about. Dabs response to design criteria and We sort of fell short of that expectation. Because The way I look at the way the way I look at this is that as a mediator is that There's weather questions and there's how questions.

[159:03] And, if somebody Asks you to review a building. And they're thinking this is a weather question. And you're thinking it's a how question. Then your responses may not meet their expectations. Because they want to know should we do this or not. And we're trying to tell them how to do it. So they're asking a different question. So I just want to make sure that because there's Public interest in this particular project. Which is seldom what we ever get. But we did get it on this other project. In the same way and I think that DAB, people felt that dab. Wasn't being critical enough. And so I think because we're getting. Push back from the neighbors that we need to be. As critical as we can. And as hard on the applicant as we can because That's our job.

[160:11] And so that and so I'm comfortable with what we've come up with. I don't agree with it, but I'm comfortable with it with with where we are. I'm sure the planning board will. Well, you know, understand the newances that we've been talking about here. And the questions that we've been that have been raised. So I'm, I guess I'm comfortable moving on. So, But I hope we're, I hope we're finished talking about it because I, I think we need to wrap it up. So I would like to try to summarize where we are. And then see if there's anything that we need to add to it. So under the first issue,

[161:08] Which is the. The building citing. And public realm interface. The concern there is. Was initially the the distance from the 2 entry ways. And that's not a problem. I think the bigger concern and the recommendation. That kind of came. From Brendan was don't. Hi the entryway on the west side. and then began to look at how that entrance at the entryway on the west side can be. Softened Well, there's a there's also a part about softening the straight flat wall under the windows, which is. That whole length that, probably could be softened in some way. Either through landscaping or breaking up the sort of horizontal.

[162:08] Brick structure there, but most of the conversation I think was around the entryway. And whether there's an outdoor use. That could be tied to the arch. Is there, can there be more transparency? Onto the entrance, getting out onto canyon. Even though that's not a drop off place for cars and we have to be sort of conscious of that. And. I think that's the main. Summarization of that and that's under H 3 A. Of the site review criteria. So that was the first issue we talked about. The second issue we talked about was the. Was the facade itself and whether the 75 foot. Whether exceeding the 75 foot facade length was okay and the Consensus I think there is that it's fine.

[163:14] There was some concern about. The balconies, are too massive in the, in those columns. On the more eastern side of the facade. Could be softened more. Could be tied in more with the design structure on the St. Julian. That the southwest corner. Was problematic and that it's appears unfinished. It's a little bit too maybe busy. Is how I might describe it. And it needs to be simplified. And. In the process of simplifying it.

[164:04] Let's see, simplify or reorganize the Southwest. Southwest Kirk, Southwest Corner. And how that ties in with the first issue we were talking about. Maybe there's possibility of too many materials being used. That it may appear to be too much of a layer cake, which I always love Roy's. Okay. Analogies. And so I think that's where. We left it with the. With issue number 2, which is. 2.2 C. In the design. The design guidelines. I think maybe Todd one way to very simply umbrella summarize that is that we're fine with the massing and the length of the primary element on the south facade as long as the Southwest is studying further.

[165:07] Yeah. As long as what you broke up there, little bit. As long as the South West is studied further. Southwest is studied further, okay. Got it. Okay. And then the other issue that we talked about. Sort of jumping around a little bit had more to do with the human scale and the pedestrian experience which would apply to this facade but also applies to the rest of the building. Including making sure the passage. Programs support the sort of public private interface. Changing the screening to reduce the visual impact. There was some discussion about glazing. And those were some of the other recommendations. So Todd, I think that that that the last piece. Goes with the first key issue that you just mentioned.

[166:04] Right. It's just like a Part D of the first key issue. It has more to do with the public realm interface. Public realm interface. Okay, which is Yeah, which is the first. With the first issue we discussed, so that would fall under. The site review criteria. H 3 A. Okay. Correct. So it's continuing the discussion from Canyon. To the west face. Right. Yeah. Okay, is there did I miss anything? No, I think that's pretty good. No? Okay. Yeah, we can tune the meeting minutes only, Sam, to make sure we get. I'm surprised that I didn't, but I. I think we covered everything that we.

[167:03] Set out to cover. Matthew raised a question early on. Talking about the alleyway. And we didn't really talk about that. Okay, alright, good. Well, time we did that was this add on issue. When I was referring earlier, we got to it and that was my concern with approaching the site from the alley. Okay, great. So I feel satisfied that that actually got covered quite. Thoroughly. Okay. Before we wrap up and, let the, applicants leave and enjoy their evening. Would you like to add anything to this discussion? As our lia, planning board liaison. That's a loaded question, and now. Yeah. Okay. Just say no. Okay. No, I think I'm gonna say yes. I would, I totally appreciate the conversation and I especially appreciate and I hope the I'm looking here on the screen to see I hope that the applicant takes deeply to heart the passage, the whole idea of this is an important link.

[168:21] Back to Pearl Street Mall and to the Civic Center. So the thing I think that has not been. Addressed is. This I was there when there was nothing built on this site, right? And the city decided they want a civic use. There the original chamber of commerce used to be on that site. It was like in a little No place house. Completely. You could drive by it, walk by it, you wouldn't know there was anything there. So that the city wanted this site to have a civic. Presents I think is really important and obviously why it hasn't been developed in all these years is trying to figure out how to get a civic partnership onto this site.

[169:13] I, I think design wise. One of the things I would point out is that this is basically a 4 story building. But the base is a civic building. And so. You wouldn't know that. Looking at the building. Which is trying to blend into its neighbors. The hotel and the residents. I think it would behoove the applicant to consider. The role of the civic. Use. That has driven the site since day one. First of all to be set aside.

[170:01] And to be held as a pad. And what, what does that become? And I think it ties right into this whole conversation of this Pasail going all the way from the Pearl Street M to the Civic Centre. We've got We've got this amazing opportunity. To. Create public presence. In on this site. And I think it wasn't always intended to have that public presence by having a civic use and I and I don't think that reads as an architectural move at this point in time. So I would just bring that up. As a As perhaps a way to think about. Yes, the building feels a little bit confusing and resolved and I think it's because it's trying to hold this identity of what is this base. Versus what is this hotel? And. You gotta go back to. What is the concept?

[171:01] What is the gesture of this of this building? I think the base is public. Civic and that doesn't read. So that would be the. Dread I would like to see brought forward and I love love love the way your conversation went. I think that you. Hmm. I dealt with a lot of complex issues and especially dealing with 0 outline information the alley you know what's with all those trash cans and all that stuff we're gonna walk right past it on the bus. I mean these are real These are real issues and I totally appreciate. That, taken the time to explore them in a meaningful way and thank you Todd for and Kilani you know for trying to get it as clear as possible. When it comes to planning board, it would be nice to. Reflect the intelligence that has gone into the conversation tonight.

[172:03] Thank you very much. Hey. I know the fact that the city is a partner to this development. I mean, does has planning board talked about the extension of you know kind of Content upon further development of the pedestrian corridors that access this civic structure. Is there a way to wrap that into the scope of the project? It's You know, this project hasn't come before the planning board since I've been on it. I'm in my second year on planning board in the years, you know, I don't know when it last came. I know the city council has had no sweat for 5 study sessions around it. You know, to flesh out a lot of that conversation. But I think Roy, what you're talking about has to do with with city planning. And how do we connect? One thing that isn't on our little piece of property that we're looking at to the bigger picture I think that that is a planning question in in the broadest sense and I I have not wrote that subject with the planning staff or with the city manager or with anybody, but I do think.

[173:14] It's important. All these discreet parcels that we look at. Are part of a bigger fabric. And it's so cool. It's just so cool when we can identify. Here's a potential. You know, to do right by. Connecting some dots. I know. Yeah, I was stuck the day I found that little sneak between Walnut and Pro Street, whatever, 10 years ago, was like, look at this. This is a nice little cut. Right, right. Yeah. Thank you for your for your good work tonight. Okay, thanks, So I think I think we'll wrap that up then and let the, let the applicant go.

[174:00] So thank you, Matt. And Stewart and Kristen and Shannon and Carol and And Bruce, I guess he's I don't see him on the in the group. So, but thank you everybody who, contributed this. Meeting. And for putting in this extra time, we're now past 7. So we really appreciate your. Willingness to stick it out. And any public attendees are still on the. Still listening in. Looks like there may be a few. Oh. So thank you all too. We have more to the agenda, but we'll let you guys sign off. Alright, thank you so much and thanks for your time. Also your thoughtfulness and even kind of making a little bit fun not not terribly formal and really appreciate all of that. Thank you very much. Your thanks. Take care. Thank you, Todd. Thank you, board. Appreciate it. Bye.

[175:03] Hey guys, I apologize. I have to. Go and this is my Sevens about my max for these meetings. So. Okay, I'm, I have to go to. Okay. Okay, we only have we only well I think. They do. Okay. Bored matters, calendar check, and adjourn. So. Let me just ask Colony if there are any board matters that we all need to hear. No, just a calendar check. We, we don't have a project for January, so there will. Okay. Meeting. So just cause the holidays are coming up and and I don't know Todd if when your last meeting is or. Yeah, I don't, I don't know that either. Okay. Alright. So, as soon as I find out more information on. About that. Alright, have a happy holiday. Okay. You too. Okay. Thank you everyone. It will just adjourn.

[176:02] That was fun. Okay. Bye. Good night