February 24, 2023 — City Council Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[11:21] wanted to catch up with you a little bit on the agenda um which really isn't going to look a lot like what we printed for you so thing one I wanted to start with the homework assignment that I gave you last night related to reminding us of a time when your idea was not in the majority did not Prevail but you left the council meeting the council experience feeling comfortable and like you had been hurt so we'll do that first we'll take volunteers as we did the other night and uh hear from you all on that then would love to know if anyone has any just reflective thoughts on last night's conversation above and beyond what you already said don't need to belabor that if you said the things last night great

[12:00] but if you had any additional Reflections or specific questions for the directors that are here we can take some time there then we are going to visit a little bit about study sessions and staff who's always ever so prepared has a little packet of things and then I want us to spend the time on those additional topics that's that you all sent by email did have run requests that they that the homelessness won which might be big that we do that one last to make sure we get to the other ones if you are wondering what the other ones are I will tell you again what we heard um Aaron just wants to talk about a procedural thing about what happens if both the mayor and the mayor Pro 10 have ditched out and are not attending Council meetings what shall you do is that what you said specifically I would prefer to avoid the term ditched out but thank you heaven right I think it is right sometimes I take Liberties but not always um and then we wanted to just check in a little bit on the charter committee items as well and so uh we can do that

[13:03] one um then and I'm sort of agnostic on the point there after uh heel Mobility Natalie's here to visit with us about that one we thought we could do that one next and then um planning approvals might be separate from the bigger pdns issues do those go together do you think yes I figure since uh since Rachel and I lifted up that sort of pdns piece along with homelessness in our hotline um I'm certainly comfortable based on the conversation we had with Brad last night and just sort of those really quick acknowledgments of those issues and where we're gonna go I personally feel pretty comfortable with what where Brad wants to go with that and acknowledges the input that we that we're going to bring so I feel good not giving too much time on that okay um but I just want to check in certainly with my fellow colleague who wrote the hotline with me to allow more space perhaps also for homelessness and other

[14:01] things I think there's going to be some greater need for oxygen on some of those issues so I'm happy to table that for a later date and kudos to Brad for addressing it rather quickly Rachel are you comfortable with that yeah I think maybe um we could do another five just because Brad said he would look at it if there was support and I don't think that we indicated which thing in particular do you want to get into planning but what are we nodding of fighting about fighting about um staff taking a look at what ordinances um we might want to change do we have a notify from Council to kind of prioritize that as a okay I don't Sandra just gave me a look or a a indication whatever the right terminology is thanks for that opportunity let me let me think about that for a minute because this is um this is a retreat and typically I think that would really be considered kind of an action item

[15:00] s I know we we can I make a friendly Amendment for Rachel we meet on Thursday and I'll just we can bring that up it matters and just take care of it there yes it may come up again under the homelessness discussion though so maybe having an answer let's play it by ear play it by ear if there is an easy answer and I I guess while my microphone's on the green I I um did not have the sense that we would push homelessness to the end so I don't know if I misunderstood you I don't I don't know where that I had a request that we get through the other things first because they might be less time consuming to make sure we have enough time for that one but not let that one take all the time so the other ones I think are fairly straightforward I think it'll be okay can I add two that if if we deal with some of the other matters like for example if we're not going to speak about pnds I'd be happy to let Brad go for example so there are you're here for the planning approvals but Bob had had planning approvals mine which was written before they post their hotline was very similar to what

[16:00] they ultimately won the home so I'm perfectly fine um glorious yes not talking about so free dinner for Brad and he gets to go home Brad's gonna be here okay I guess I I feel like homelessness is such a unwieldy topic and um such an important topic for the community and one that we hear so much about that if we're going to talk about it like I think it could almost eat up the whole time so I wouldn't want to push everything else and then we end up with a 25 minute discussion on it so we'll defer to colleagues on their preference but I would probably do it first let's hear from the rest of the group go ahead Aaron well just on the The Retreat and giving making actions like we can't make a formal action but we've always given Direction at Retreat so maybe we can think of it that way not a five is maybe a little more formal but I think we can always give Council Direction and and like we can nod our heads but not have a not of five and that might thread the needle don't officially count how many of them are nodded I said what I guess I'm hearing go ahead Nicole yeah I just had a question about what

[17:00] what we are deciding on so are we asking pnds to go and look for changes that will make things easier or is it more that if things are coming up in the course of you know the the work that you're typically doing that you notice then those are things that we might work on but what I um have concerns about is that pnds has an incredibly large work plan and a lot of our work plan priorities and so I think I'd be curious to know okay so I'm going to ask you not to have the conversation I'm just trying to get the sequence of things so it sounds like we should spend at least a couple minutes figuring out what you want to do with this one um so checking camping ban enforcement does that go with homelessness are they together so that's a so that ends up Rachel I think it's going to be okay there aren't that many items so if we do the absent ditching mayor's situation then the charter committee check-in then Hill Mobility um then a quick check-in on this pdns what are we saying about that and then all that's left is homelessness and

[18:00] camping ban I think you'll get a good couple hours left for that you cool you'll be mad at me later if it doesn't work out okay she's like oh yes you can count on that bourbon I'm watching you sweet all right Council you talked about that I didn't count how many of them are nodding that but it was a good number um ma'am so one of the things we had talked about and talked to others about during the retreat planning was having this discussion about what else like what are the things we want to have deeper discussions about after tonight so that we can try to schedule that in so is that still part of this is that it's part of the study such a conversation yeah okay yep and then the other thing I captured last night and maybe this relates to the pdns thing is you know could we just have a regular check-in from all the departments on how things are going and I think that was specifically it came up as part of the ordinance conversation if people have come come up with other ideas um so we can check in on that and then we might want to just debrief at the end of the night if we have time how this retreat planning conversation went and um if we could have done better or differently to have it be a more

[19:01] satisfactory experience so that's roughly the plan somewhere in the middle I think we should take a break stretch some legs um all right so with that as a rough plan I would like to start with your homework assignments and um for those of you who are not talking during um one of your colleagues uh delivery of their homework assignment I will ask you to give them your full attention and not be rehearsing your own remarks in your mind um it's a common thing to do and mostly it works out okay because you can kind of wing it and pretend like you were listening but in this particular case the whole point is to do the listening um so really we'll ask you to give it your all to really hone in um so do I have a volunteer to go first hey Bob Yates tell me about a time I did think about this ahead of time so I'm not I can now actively listen after I finish talking um so all my colleagues know that oftentimes you you almost always come into a meeting and you have a pretty good idea if you're going to win or lose

[20:00] the proposition is before us you know you kind of have an idea and so in my mind years there's kind of three approaches you can take to losing um one is you can just kind of quietly vote and be out voted which is fine um secondly you can get like really pissy and have a nice long speech and tell your colleagues why you think they're really really dumb um and voting the way they are and we've all done that including me um and then the third choice the third choice you have I think is you could say you know guys um I know I'm gonna get out voted here um and I think you're making a wrong decision but um I'd like to help you improve the thing you're working on and it's not going to change my vote I'm still going to vote no but I'd like to make some suggestions to you all to help you come up with a better product and um and when I have done that in the seven or so years I've been on Council I always feel really good at the end of that night like you know like I helped and I always feel listened to because people know that like I'm not a threat

[21:01] anymore right I'm I've already cast my vote the other direction and so so I get paid attention to and um I'll give you a recent example last year you all remember that we were trying to decide on on even your elections and I was going to vote no on that one and but I knew that the most the rest of the folks were gonna vote Yes when that was fine and but I thought the way they were going about it was a little bit um wrong and so I said hey folks I'm going to vote no on this but let me help you make this a better product and um after after a couple few weeks they they ended up in that place and I felt really good about that it felt listened to um I do remember I do remember that night I was sitting next to Mark and Mark was going to vote with me in the minority and he kept kicking me under the table saying stop helping them stop helping them they're making a horrible decision but I did want to help my colleagues because at the end of the day we're all in this together right and we all want the best products even if we're on the loosen end or the winning end of a particular vote and so I think I think it ended up being a better product and I

[22:00] really appreciate my colleagues listening to me that night so this was a challenging homework assignment for me because I'm not very good at remembering these types of things I actually wipe my brain clean of any sort of [Laughter] but and and so I do remember one instance though where I was the only and I can't remember what the topic was or who said this but I was the only person voting against something and the person who had brought it Forward um sort of listened to what I said in terms of why I wasn't going to vote on

[23:02] it or you know vote to approve it and asked if there was a modification that could be made that would bring me into being able to support it and I believe I said no um but I still really appreciated that because my vote wasn't necessary to pass it and still making that effort um I think was meaningful kind of in line with Bob's okay okay um yes I thought about this a little bit you know in seven odd years on Council I've been in the minority side of a vote many many times and I think for me it's actually been an internal thing about whether I leave the meeting comfortable that if I feel like I if I feel comfortable in my choice and I feel like I said a few words that represented my position pretty well and as long as no

[24:00] one was like actively mean to me which actually has happened a couple of times like where somebody said something really nasty about me personally other than that I will generally walk home and be like all right you know wasn't in the majority but it's fine feel comfortable with it I mean there have been so many of the occasionally somebody may say well that's a good point or what have you but again as long as as long as somebody doesn't single me out and say well that thing you said was really stupid um no you know I think I'm pretty comfortable um this was actually kind of difficult

[25:01] um and the reason is uh I've been on the like the majority side of a lot of votes this first year um no but um so but but you know it's almost like trying to so it's yeah there's connotation to that but I was really trying to dig but um I'm sure oh I know it will oh I know it will um and maybe I'm burning all of the good Juju early and then uh it comes back to bite um but but one one in one instance where I definitely was not in the in the majority that I recall was with the conversation regarding West Pearl and um that was an interesting one because um there wasn't necessarily a sense of feeling heard as much as there was a frustration of feeling powerless

[26:00] um and that was a really odd sensation of being an elected official and having zero power to affect the outcome of an issue of great importance in the community where we had heard a tsunami of wanting change or wanting something different so that was that was uh that was interesting um that was a hard one to sort of swallow because that was not an expectation I felt uh that I would get as an elected official dealing with City issues um but but I think at the end of it what I think was heard was not just me but the community and so we have a process that is Gonna Get Us hopefully to a comfortable place for all sides with regards to to West Pearl and other pedestrianization so anyway that was one instance where that was that was the case and I agree with Aaron I I don't um really care that much about whether I feel hurt or not that doesn't weigh on me I compartmentalize stuff pretty quickly and then just move on to the next opportunity to have success I don't let that weigh down

[27:00] because I don't want it to taint the next opportunity to then be on a positive working environment to like get the next thing done so I try to close it off pretty quick colloquying off of that so are you saying that the West Pearl vote we were wrong and you were right is that what you were saying on that one I was in the minority just kidding to me you know my regular job is sales and marketing so to me Council reminds me a lot of my regular job in the sense that you have were nine of us and we have to talk at least four other people into agreeing with us and a lot of times I don't know if the community knows this but you have your one-on-one talks with different people and what I like to do because I learn better listening than reading 400 page packets is to ask a lot of questions to

[28:01] people that specifically disagree with me so I can I like I like to figure out if I'm understanding it and then sometimes I don't think I'm right and then often I need more information to make a decision and that's how I make a decision at work when I have the best decision with the most information so so that's why it's kind of sales and so as far as when you're in sales and you don't get the sale you have to move on you can't just sit there and cry I mean you can cry and I when I first started I did cry like sometimes for two weeks at a shot to be honest but anyway you can that's not the way to do it so for me I've never gotten hurt because I always feel heard when I have the one-on conversations with people I also listen to people when I have those conversations and even in Council I listen to people and I'm always like pulled as people know like oh my gosh yes no yes no because I'm one of my I don't have you know my few good qualities that I'm able to listen and to

[29:01] till the very end and then I'm like what do I do what do I do so my my problem isn't that I'm ever hurt because that's the way it goes I mean sometimes you when sometimes you lose and even when I have so much trust with my fell uh the rest of my fellow Council people that if I lose I trust that they had their very good reason why they voted that way and I'm going to move on and one thing Junie Joseph said to me the very beginning when we first got on was this is a uni josephism is she says I let that was Tuesday night at the time I let Tuesday nights stay a Tuesday night and I wake up on Wednesday I don't even think about it and I always remember that and always um we'll do that so I will end the Soliloquy with this final thoughts and that is my biggest problem is is I will wake up in the middle of the night or at let's say 3 58 a.m and like oh my gosh I think I voted the wrong way so for me I'm my worst that you know I'm the one that is the hardest to live with because

[30:00] I'm so pulled by people's excellent ways of looking at things and at the very end I'll often just rethink my vote and wish that I can change it that recently did happen so Soliloquy rhymes with colloquy all right I can go um and I wondered if Matt wanted to clarify one thing from his which is I'm giving I'm trying to like throw him a rope here to unhang himself um but I don't think that you were upset by being in the minority right you were upset that it was not council's decision it was uh it was in staff Sans is that accurate not everybody maybe knows that so I just wanted to clarify that for you um nobody's fault just that I think the powerlessness in that scenarios because I felt that a bit too was that it was it was just not a council it was an administrative decision an administrative function so that was maybe you didn't feel like you hung yourself but in case anyone else did

[31:02] um no he had moved on I guess he did uh that's nice so I I um I spent most of my first two years in Council in the minority on Bob's nodding vociferously there um and I you know I guess I always felt like it wasn't really this body's job necessarily to hear or validate me because we were we're all elected and we have a job to do and our job I think is to represent our constituents so I I don't um I mean this inoffensively I don't care too much what what you all think of me or if you um if you agree with me or or you know you're gonna vote the way you're going to vote if I didn't um Pitch you well enough on my vote then so be it um but I I also tended to leave um feeling comfortable because um usually my mom would text like way to fight the good fight or something like

[32:02] that or else a Community member would write and say thanks for um standing up for for what I believe too so um I I usually if you know if I'm hurt I think it's from uh either people who love me um or the constituents that I'm up here doing the work for yeah I'm kind of in a similar perspective as Rachel um so that's that is where you know I'm generally feeling hurt and and I think what contributes to that is just you all giving me a chance to say my piece I mean I I do often disagree on a lot of things right and um but you know you still give me a chance to speak what's in my heart and my brain and I appreciate that so um because I think it's it's those opportunities that then um allow me to hear from other folks that um that that I'm supported so I appreciate you indulging me

[33:01] um as someone who spends a lot of time with a lot of councils in a lot of places Don't make me say that on camera man um among the things that I have said any number of times that I might have said it to you which is a council that always votes 100 the same way as a dysfunctional counsel similarly a council that can't disagree and then walk away and be civil is a dysfunctional counsel um Tara I was I was struck by your comments about that there were sort of similarity to a sales job because I often say democracy is a Marketplace of ideas like that's what it is at its very core and some ideas get sold and get caught and people run with them and some don't and some people are able to think of it that way and go yep had the meeting made fought the good fight I lost I went home I'm over it Tuesday night stay Tuesday night I'll ask you to reflect that not everybody is like that

[34:01] and that the things that the way that we treat people when they don't agree with us leaves a mark on a good number of Souls and so what I hear is for some of you this is a non-issue and you might accidentally then also be assume that your words don't land on other people What I Hear as things that matter to some members of this group is it helps me when you give me time to say my peace what I find in my own work is sometimes it also helps for someone to say I hear what you're saying is this you care deeply about this you think these things are the right choices I disagree with that and that's okay but at least someone knows right but you at least processed what I was saying because you were paying attention to me and not just making your mental grocery list right so sometimes that helps so giving people time to say their piece and then reflecting back what you've heard you don't have to agree with it to acknowledge that you heard it and then a couple of you also said

[35:01] it's nice when people ask me is there a way we could get you on board is there an amendment or hey I heard that you disagree with this but you had a really cool idea we'd like to incorporate that again it helps people know that you're listening it helps them feel like you're not just you're not just counting the votes and shutting down the minority so when we do stakeholder stuff that I have done for you all in your community in all kinds of places we don't do voting and we don't do voting because by its very nature it is a win-lose proposition and it creates very very little incentive to give a rip about the people in the minority but you're you're better than that and you know you're better than that right and so what consensus does which I'm not suggesting that you do because that's that's a different context but what it does is it creates an incentive to bring other people on board and that's what that do you have an amendment that could help you get there that's what that is that's bringing people on board having them join the party of the majority instead of just saying suck it we got the numbers you lose

[36:01] so really we'll encourage you to sort of hear that even if it's not true for you and not a need that you personally have every day good on you if you're one of those people that can you know that water off the Ducks back and get on with your day but a lot of people aren't and those people that aren't they need your kindness and they need your respect and they need you to hear them even if you don't agree with them the job is not to agree because agree the job is to hear because respect and then go ahead and do your voting um that's my little Heather speech delighted to have anyone else reflect on anything before we move on if you have anything to say that's all I have to say I think we do do that I think that's fantastic and if you do it then thank you for indulging me and letting me waste 30 minutes of your evening um carry it with you a little bit out into the world yeah yeah well Terry agreed that that often

[37:01] happens and I think we generally work together really well and hear each other and listen to each other but I just I would invite my colleagues as the person who's facilitating the meetings if you ever feel like that hasn't been happening or you do feel like wow I really wasn't listened to tonight in a way that was hurtful to me please let me know like give me a call the next day and and give some feedback and because we we do want to achieve these just what you're saying about Heather so to the extent that we don't I think it'd be good to hear about it so we can do better thanks Aaron and maybe not so much with the personal like that diminishing a thing a person said I did hear that in your comments as well that sometimes when passions Run High our words get away from us a little bit um if you hear yourself do it people make mistakes I'm so sorry Aaron I didn't that was personal I didn't mean for that to be personal um thanks all right last night I don't know if you remember this but there was this very jovial group of directors

[38:01] and they had many many fine things to tell you and you had some questions but there was also many hours of that wondering if anyone has any additional thoughts considerations or just general Reflections on last night's conversation that you want to share with your colleagues or with staff before we move on to the work of this evening yeah Bob well I don't know whose idea that was last night but I have to say it was one of the best things I've ever seen this is my eighth Retreat and Nuria or the retreat committee but whoever's idea was it was a fantastic idea because it what it it it exposed for us is how well you guys work together and how you're not silent and how you're coordinated and how you have pretty good senses of humor um and I think it was it was I went into last night thinking oh you know this is just a space filler everyone's going to tell us what they do you know I run Parks I run Transportation but but 19 of them um but it was way better than that I

[39:01] went home we're like wow damn that was really really good yeah especially Parks especially Parks I actually learned a lot from you all like as I always do um and so and so I I just I would just suggest whoever plans the next Retreat do this again this was really really really valuable so thank you Retreat committee thank you Nuria for putting this together because I thought that was a really fantastic experience last night one of my best in Council I will give all credit to Nuria who had done this exercise with third directors maybe a week or two before we were having a retreat committee meeting we were talking about the kinds of things that you know we might talk about at the retreat and Aria mentioned it and obviously it was brilliant so kudos to Marianne thank you for bringing that idea and thank you to all the directors for sticking with us last night and giving us the overviews I just want to say I already implemented some of the stuff that I learned last night because there was so I mean that was a that was a lot of information and a relatively

[40:01] short period of time but just this afternoon somebody sent me an email from the community and they were asking hey did we get any Broncos money like Longmont did and has has that already been decided what to do and you know what I had an answer right there because we had just heard about that last night and so even for that for being able to say hey yeah I can give you a really General overview and here's the department to go to if you have any more specific questions that right there was really helpful so it was just so neat to see that from I mean last night like I don't know 12 hours later and I was already putting it to use so thank you um I just want to thank the directors right when we uh when we embarked on this and I said last year I want to do a collective work plan there was some rumbling I'll say right good-natured rumbling uh and a little bit about the why like why do we need that everybody has their work plan and to be honest I'm always cautious about

[41:00] it because we want to we don't want to add more work but what you heard last night were 95 well I'm gonna say like 98 because Kurt snuck a few in there on me but uh but 95 written and 98 Kurt extra work plan items out of a work plan that doesn't include all of the work but is over 100 800 work plan items long and I just it's the work that these folks do day in and day out that really um at least my intent was to lift that up and to share some of that with you all and so I just so appreciate it that it resonated and in fact it will actually color a little bit of our next item uh which is about the study sessions but just wanted to really appreciate uh pretty publicly our leadership team who just does extraordinary work we should talk about study sessions I was just going to kick out ordinary anyway um so Nuria our agenda from last night

[42:01] says staff presentation on the current role and scope of Staff of study sessions um is you the staff I am the staff sweet uh and really it's just a pretty quick update on it uh there was as you heard yesterday there's a desire for you all to hear more from us not just what's on the agenda but how do we dive deeper in it I know it's a conversation I had with Lauren months and months ago uh when she had the opportunity to listen to climate initiatives do something and she was like why don't we hear more about that right so I just appreciate Lauren bringing that up and as the subcommittee came together we were thinking about what that role is and so my job really is to sort of put that reminder out there and then open that up and and certainly Nicole and Lauren if you want to ask your colleagues what else or take it from there but for us study sessions really are critical and I'll say that um sometimes we need clear Direction before we go write ordinances to uh to know if there's something in action that's going to come before you we need

[43:00] to know that ahead of time so that we know what direction to go in before staff is kind of spinning their wheels and trying to guess what you'd like so we use study sessions in that way we have used study sessions in other areas to really talk about topics of Interest we're about to have some of those now and I think there's an interest and a desire to have more of those ad hoc sessions April 13th we're going to spend an entire three hours talking about homelessness with our partners in the county April 27th you have asked to talk about what are the impacts on meth in our community we have our partners at Boulder County Public Health joining us and really a talk about what impacts do we see as staff and I appreciate Rachel who brought that forward and so we'll be doing that we are happy to continue to bring more of those conversations to you and so we have listed out on the second page you'll see in your current term this is a list of all the study sessions that we've already done with you it's a

[44:01] lot right and we have about 16 of those left in the remaining of the term unless we convert more of those into other meetings and I think the desire of the subcommittee and I'll perhaps turn it over to you all is to see what other topics would you like us to take deeper Dives on because we can try to plan those as we move forward while also bringing forward those items that we're going to need to hear more direction from you on as we move on as we need to do some work that was my two second presentation this is very very good quick question um in our original agenda there was a series of bullets that said existing emerging issues include were those intended to be study session topics ballot measures Economic Security child care do we know where that list came from I believe some of those were ideas that were coming about about what gaps what haven't we heard what would we would like to take deeper Dives on the ballot issue item is a separate item I believe

[45:01] that's an update that is intended to happen um after we finish this but the others could be some of those emerging issues that we want to take deeper Dives on but we defer to council if there are things because we can certainly move in whatever Direction you'd like for study sessions and Nori do you have any um suggestions for Council on on the overall number like roughly There are 16 study sessions left in the year and some of them you've already programmed them so if they have new additional ideas that would be a trade-off with some of these additional lists or is it again maybe no adjectives and adverbs and you could get two topics in a given night um I mean I I don't know that there's a hard and fast rule yet we have been thinking maybe there's an ad hoc one the way we've been doing once a quarter um that we can take a study session and go into a deeper dive but we never know when these issues are going to emerge right so we want to be flexible but as you all have seen from the council meetings that we've had in the study sessions we've had so far we are mostly chock full of things that we need you

[46:00] all to give us Direction on we need some of that support and we need your Insight as we move forward so I can't imagine that we would be in a situation unless you all wanted to start calling extra study session days that are separate and apart from what we already have that we can dispense with all the planned study sessions there's a lot of work coming your way with a lot of ordinance changes that we're going to need to take some of that time for because we don't tend to have that time in regular meetings but you know whether it's uh let's make sure that we've got depends on what topics you want to do too what do you want to bring forward can we create that Avenue and frankly if it's important enough we can do a second day and I know staff may kill me but we can do an additional day at some point and do a study session if it's that important so it really does depend on the topics but know that I would say um easily three-quarters of our study sessions moving forward will need to be on stuff that needs to come for you that

[47:00] we need direction on Council questions comments ideas well a threshold question here um I may be not feeling heard this moment um because I I had asked that we bump up to the front of the conversation the homelessness discussion and I'm not I I'm not super interested in talking about study sessions so I just want to know if we're going to have a sort of a council vote on what we want to talk about tonight and what the agenda is and and I had asked that maybe we do that last night but I think it's important that we at least that there's a majority of support for what the agenda is tonight and if we are going to talk about steady sessions kind of understanding what what input we would be expected to give fantastic um so the rough agenda that I had is that we would talk through study sessions hear your ideas for future study sessions I don't Envision that that needs to be particularly long I I didn't I didn't understand this item to be what do we want to have on the list of future study sessions because

[48:00] I'm totally unprepared for that I thought the discussion was should we have study sessions or or what what form should study sessions be not like what do we want because um I don't know that the neighbors are prepared to talk about that tonight Retreat committee um the the intention was sort of as after hearing sort of everything that's being worked on okay sorry let me back up we don't have a lot of capacity at the staff level to add things to our work plan um but you know there are other things as a council that we can do we're dealing with a lot of really complicated issues in our community and study sessions to me feel like a powerful way to take a deeper dive into a topic even if that might not mean finding a

[49:01] solution in this term or having a you know something that we're bringing forward right away it's bringing attention to something that's important to our community and it also is helping start the path towards Solutions so I think it's more I pictured this to be a check-in to say Beyond what you hear happening with you know in existing work plans are there any other things that we either should be paying special attention to that aren't going to come forward as part of our work plan or that you've heard that staff is already working on that we would be interested in hearing more about and I don't know that that needs to be a super in-depth conversation and we always have the opportunity to bring forward emerging topics as study session items but just

[50:00] taking the time right now to see if there are anything if people have ideas for things that are pressing lovely clarification Nicole I'll give you a chance to jump in and then hear from Aaron and Matt yeah um I mean I I think I'm confused by some of the confusion a little bit as well because I don't you know I think in some of the one-on-one conversations and things I've I felt like we got to a place where folks were understanding that this wasn't about are we having study sessions or not um but you know I think as as we mentioned you know one of the intentions was to try to understand what are these bigger topics that we need to talk about and I thought that's what folks were sending as well um things like uh family homelessness economic insecurity those kinds of things and and just to kind of give some guidance of like a list of of what are the topics that we might want to dive into a little bit more and then as we have more time as we move through the year so you know it wasn't really intended to be a are we having study sessions or not

[51:01] because I think we that's that's necessary and I will tell you that a couple people when they when I talk to them one-on-one about their ideas I said so that's a future study session someone's like oh no no no I don't want that to be a future study session I want I literally want to talk about that at the retreat so I made a separate list which was again the homelessness and the pdns stuff at the mobility Hill mobility and the charter and the absent mayor situation so I see how it got messy yeah Aaron and then Matt and then Tara and then we should decide what we're gonna do and then do it yep and so appreciate the clarification from both of you and I just want to say that when we talked it all through last night I felt like all of the current topics that need to be addressed are already on our agenda and so that gave me that reassurance that we are addressing the emerging topics that have come up and are already planning on talking about them so so just was that I hear you and I'm comfortable with where we are right now with the caveat of we've got a few specific topics to talk about tonight that I want to explore but

[52:00] other than that I could leave this this item be done with it right now glorious thank you Aaron Matt uh I I agree with with Aaron on this I will say we're kind of encroaching on maybe the debrief on the back end because we're we're debating on whether or not we should do an agenda item that was received a week ago and it doesn't seem like there was the check-in from this whole body to determine whether or not that's something we all wanted on the agenda to begin with so I think we're kind of reverse engineering things at this point um so um I I'd like to just move on I think what we got here is fantastic and I trust staff to bring what they need in order to keep the work that we've said going going and I think we just we just forge ahead uh with what we got I would only add if we need to we have business to do too so I wouldn't really want to add in fact I'd say we have more business and perhaps study to do in some capacities at least what the community tells us so so I think you know if there's a need to think about special days like Tuesdays to take some relief

[53:01] then I'm all ears but but I think we could move on Tara I guess the reason why I was confused what I thought last night was excellent but we heard from everybody almost that there's not Staffing for what we even want never mind adding emerging issues if I had my dream as usual I would say Lighting in the tunnels for the 14th time but do I feel like I want to give Natalie one more thing to do no you're welcome so that's why I don't think we should really go there we we have a full schedule and um I think that I don't want to aggravate one more um staff person with any of my ideas from a place of kindness lovely thank you um okay so a couple of you are saying don't need to talk about it because all the things are coming um and one of you saying all the things aren't coming but we don't need to add any more things uh Lauren and Nicole since UT this up

[54:02] are you feeling there are additional things that you want to propose that we should spend some time talking on just yes or no it's mostly what I'm looking for right now no okay Laurie additional topics that you want to bring for study session consideration tonight I still have the one that nuriam brought up which is that I would love to hear more check-ins around the work that we're doing in sustainability and it doesn't need to be huge or big but I do think that those are really important to our community and would like to uplift them more um all right Bob well I'm kind of agreeing with Aaron and Matt I think I think we can let this rest and and we got we got like eight years worth of work ahead of us um so I don't think adding anything more um I do also want to remind ourselves that um council members always have the opportunity whether there's a study session or a legislative matter to make a request of CAC to add something um CAC may not do it staff may push back

[55:00] and that's all fine but we always have an Avenue to say Hey listen I'd love to have a study session area sometime in the next three months on fill in the blank and I think that um CAC historically has been very in staff has been very responsive to those types of requests so I I just want to remind us that tonight's not the last time that we're going to talk about 2023 anybody on any day can say CAC please add something great thanks Bob Rachel other than the things that you mentioned um to me those are the things right cool in that case um Nuria you have the check-ins on sustainability work on on your radar I do and if any other item comes up and we can do something like we're doing um with the county on meth and with homelessness we are happy to bring that forward let us know because I know that there are topics that um uh either you know now that you want to go deeper to or who knows what happens that Community is asking us to go deeper on as well so we will try to be as flexible as possible and we'll try uh

[56:01] not to push back on topic but perhaps on timing depending on who's involved great you all go with that coming back to Rachel's original question which was just can we get a notified on the agenda I would propose the following agenda then it is 6 20. I feel like we should be able to get to absent mayorism uh Charter check Charter committee check-ins and mobility and what do you want to do with a pdns ordinance direction that you're not going to give during a study session that we should be able to crank all that out by pretty close to seven and then rest the night on homelessness does that seem doable I'm just one of what seven here tonight but yes good sounds good to me works for you I'm seeing nodding nodding nodding fantastic let's do that then hot dog let's get after it fantastic so um Aaron as I understand it sometimes the mayor and the mayor Pro tem don't are together are both not in a meeting and that creates a situation yeah so we uh don't have any provisions for it as travel is coming back post covered and

[57:00] uh Mark is experiencing some health issues this has come up several times and we don't have anything in our rules and procedures about that and I think we should add something to our rules and procedures about it so I'd like if we could just have a matter an item under matters where we could talk through the best approach and then get some change to our rules and procedures I think that would help us do you know what you would like to propose as a rule and procedure well I I don't want to get the big conversation tonight but what I would say is if it's an entire evening that perhaps the most recent mayor Pro tem in order as their recency could could take over the meeting facility in the meeting and if it's just for five or ten minutes that the person sitting next to the the mayor or the mayor Pro tem could take over for those those minutes okay I see people nodding those same like reasonable things to consider the procedure then for a under under matters conversation is city attorney's office draft something in advance for you to consider just based on those ideas or you want to talk more about it prior to anything being drafted I mean if people are just fine with those ideas

[58:00] maybe we could move forward but I don't want to push people anyone have any other cool ideas you want to kick into the kitty they like your ideas cool I was just going to comment too and maybe send it correct me if I'm wrong that uh because we are at um this kind of meeting we're not necessarily taking an action but we can have that direction and we will reflect that in the summary of this meeting as well so we will memorialize it in a document great yeah obviously a formal decision would come late I would just add I'm sorry maybe maybe if you have to go A Step Beyond that like the backup to the back up to the backup I don't know how far we're going but why shouldn't you just maybe have a meeting yeah that's true so another person that maybe would make sense or to consider would be the third person that's on CAC that week so maybe some options so I don't know if you've all have noticed that Samuel who works for me is sitting up here literally typing everything that you say um so all the ideas will be captured and become a former right I know right I try to do that that job for someone

[59:01] else lately I'm like all right I've lost my ability to type 90 million words a minute I got old and soft all right Sandra yep Sandra I did want to just follow up and and say that I did look it up the rules it does require action a vote by Council for the notify um so I didn't want to clarify that and then in addition to that I'm happy to to write whatever rules procedure you've recommended and then bring it forward the Bob um as good as Aaron's idea was I also like Rachel's and we also have two council members who are not here tonight so I wonder if you when you write it up maybe you could write it as Alternatives and then we can talk about it at whatever meeting you're bringing forward to it Lauren I think we would also be open to other brilliant ideas that the legal team brings forward for how we might do that if there are other suggestions so some alternatives for discussion and then options for council members who

[60:00] aren't here to add in to the kitty Maybe Junior Mark right now is sitting on the genius idea we don't know okay Sandra you cool nor are you cool awesome fantastic thank you for raising that Charter committee members you wanted to visit a little bit with Council um tonight do you want to tee up your your your question and then we'll discuss um sure you good you know I'll just kind of outline the process because I've been I've done this a few times um so historical the charter committee is two two members of council right so this year is Matt and me and historically Charter committee meets with the city attorney's office in the clerk's office usually about once a month January February March April and typically by May the charter of the committee brings forward a package of ideas um and hopefully that's a good package of ideas because we only have a narrow window of time in which to actually put things on the ballot is basically the summer and so Matt and I thought that maybe we've already had one meeting we have a couple more scheduled here coming up we met I thought we would tell you what we've talked about already but more

[61:00] importantly ask Council what you'd like us to be working on the next two or three months so that we don't show up in May and have the wrong things cool great thank you Bob um so uh it's funny how some years are heavy on the ballot other years this can be lighter some we have control over and other years we don't because our residents decide they are going to go full democracy on us um so uh the main one that we are uh working on is fair pay for Council and this isn't a new idea because this was kind of this was something that our if you remember at our last Retreat fell just off the top 10 in terms of resurrecting the Blue Ribbon commission and it was sort of left there with an asterisk of if and when there's capacity we can maybe give it some legs here in 2023 so here we are at 2023 and I think really the question is is Council comfortable with us continuing to move forward there seems to be capacity to handle lifting up a blue ribbon Commission in which to let some

[62:00] residents people maybe previous council members or others in the community to give us some feedback and and give us some clarity as to what Fair pay for Council would look like um the one data point we have is the Fort Collins measure that just passed uh pretty handily that did it and so we sort of have started with modeling after that in framing things but just wanted to check in if that's a worthy pursuit to kind of lift up a blue ribbon commission get that recommendation from which to frame um something for the ballot and then you know come back to you all in the May time frame with with something on Fair pay so I just wanted to check in if we're headed in a good direction or we should hit the e-brake and go a different way Nicole go ahead yeah I really like the idea of starting to look into this I think this was one of the things I brought up last year is like critical right to to getting a more representative and inclusive Council um I think I have a couple of concerns about trying to get something done by May and having something on this year's ballot first of all you know one of the reasons that we um did the even year

[63:01] election ballot measure last year and put that on is because we know that the folks who show up in odd years to vote are different from the people who show up in even years and I think especially around this issue the folks who have pay as a barrier to serving on Council they are likely to be those who might be more likely to weigh in on that in an even year rather than an odd year so I think just to to make sure that the folks who would benefit from this the most are weighing in I would like to see it there so that's one thing the second thing though is that I think it might actually take or be worth kind of a deeper engagement to try to understand what Equitable and fair pay looks like for Council so for example um you know maybe there's a single working mom who would love to serve on Council but needs full-time pay in order to make that a reality versus you know somebody who maybe is retired doesn't

[64:00] doesn't you know is able to do counsel for a 20-hour week kind of salary so so I think there's there's some issues there I think the other thing is especially as we're thinking about trying to recruit and bring in folks who have more marginalized identities it takes more work to get to the same place for example for somebody who is by Bach especially somebody who's black or indigenous and and I think like I would love to just dive into a discussion of how do we how do we try to accommodate for that as well and I don't think that's something that can be done in a couple of months to get something on the ballot measure for me so I think there's all kinds of Juicy to use your um your word Heather conversations that we could have on this topic and really try to get it to a good place for 2024 so that we can create more equity in who can serve on Council and the pay that they get so but I love this love this idea and

[65:00] thinking about how we can do this because it really is a barrier for a lot of folks Bobby Amazon yeah Nicole thanks so much for raising that because Matt and I have actually talked about those very points so so that's very much on our mind number one it is a lot of work so I'm not sure that we can get it done this year and secondly we are sensitive the fact that that this ballot measure whatever it might look like might have a greater chance of success in 2024 so we are all over that um I guess we just wanted your permission to start working on it um we may come to you in May and saying like Okay we're about a quarter of the way done it happening this year or we may come to you and say we've done a lot of work and we feel pretty well but but we think from a political standpoint we'd be better in 2024 so we just wanted to make sure you guys were okay working on it I was with you Nicole last year's Retreat and I wanted us to start working on this in 2020 too but but I get I think we didn't have enough votes and in the the one thing I'm a little bit nervous about is um this is exactly what happened last Council so Aaron will remember that the land and Rachel that this Council um the last Council talked about in 2021 handed it off to this Council and we

[66:01] kind of kind of kind of didn't pursue it and and then we're a year down the road and so I'm a little bit worried that that we start pursuing it and then there's another group of people that's going to sit here a year from now and and and so I just want to make sure that we just move it as far as we can this Council will make it you know informed decision this summer about whether we want to put it on 2024 or or 2023. can I just add that the whole goal is to just get a recommendation regardless of the how long it takes get a recommendation in our pocket and then we can decide what the best political opportunity is to do it so I just let it so yeah rear points are well taken so we just want to know if we can move forward with that or not so that's our main question for Council Maria Food For Thought yeah and mine is more in the mama bear uh mode right now and just want to know a little bit more and we can take this offline what your interest is in terms of what what you need from staff there are some things for example and I know uh Lauren uh has been working a lot on minimum wage for example and

[67:01] has not required a whole lot of Staff lift and we've been able to support that work as we move forward standing up a commission if the expectation is for staff to do it as they're also doing rank Choice voting this year it's going to be difficult so I don't know what that looks like and don't want to assume so happy to have those conversations but that's my only concern about timing that's a well I just responded um I think that's a point well taken we've we've sort of addressed that and had those conversations with staff and and I think there's a couple there's a I think was we've sort of defined it there's a few levels of of support and and work needed um right I mean kind of like many things we can take we could literally just carbon copy what Fort Collins did because it was successful in rubber stamps say go play and require nothing we we can do some engagement or we can spend them you know a nine or ten month process so I think there we just have to decide what that is um and and we'll get there as we Define that but thanks for bringing that up so what I just might suggest Nicole is for excellent excellent points I appreciate you all looking into this is maybe get started you know start looking

[68:00] into it see if there's a very light lift staff version to to start gathering information and ideas that this may not be the year to put it on the ballot but I think I think a strong majority of us is interested in seeing what it might look like so maybe we could give you the green light to get started without pre-committing to an outcome in terms of timing Lauren I just wanted to make a request is as you look at it um I know I don't know which Community it is nearby but there is also a community that has more official staff support like stronger you know the council member because to me the amount of work is tied right it's not it's not just pay but there's also like how much we can accomplish and so I think that both support and pay are kind of tied and there might be two different ways of looking at that or a balance or a choice can you clarify I mean like everyone gets their own tailor yeah that is exactly what I mean

[69:04] Denver has a full-time aid for each council member yep um so just so I'm understanding this idea of a blue ribbon commission would come later after the two of you continue to do some consideration exploring because that to me sounds like that's where the staff lift comes in in particular is if there's a group of humans from the community working with it yeah but I think this is kind of bang bang in the sense of like we may only need one or so maybe a second meeting to Define where we want to go and then when staff's ready we just press play so I don't think we want to draw this out any longer because we know we're running up against because if there's a need to want to do it we want to have it a Runway so we can get it done by 2023. if we do you know we want to work from the shortest timetable and know that that works but if we extend great but if that's a deadline then we want to start as soon as possible so we have our Runway anyone else have thoughts on this um is there any member of council um

[70:02] troubled and would like to discourage Bob and Matt from continuing this conversation see how I did that how they didn't vote see how I did that you're welcome yeah okay cool yeah yeah not not troubled or wanting to discourage or anything just really wanting to make sure that we're hearing a lot from the folks who would benefit the most and from whom we hear that the lack of pay is an obstacle to their running foreign serving on Council so and that's where you know I think staff has a wonderful process for really engaging folks in the community and through some trusted relationships and things so but yeah loved it love to hear what you all start thinking about so matineer and what can Council and staff expect from you next in terms of checking in with them sorry Matt and Bob you guys met men people um council members saying make sure you check in with the community um they would like to probably hear back from you staff saying they want for you

[71:00] to check in before you get too out too far out of the gate what's your vision for closing the loop with these folks well I would say I mean I think as I referenced before we need to get once we get through the other pieces here and we have a sense of what direction we have from Council not just on this issue but of anything else that they want to add to the plate then we can scope out the amount of work or amount of meetings we have so I think it's probably a little premature to sort of plant a flag on that it's heard and we're going to work on that but we need to first get a sense of what the total scope of our committee's work is going to be after tonight got it thank you is that what you're gonna say Bob yeah we have we have two other things that we're thinking about the weight is more well and hopefully there is even maybe more from Council that's that's we're leading up to a question got it so we want to start talking here in a second ask the question the two other things that we're working on um as you heard from Cara and some others um last night um this is not technically a charter thing but we kind of Taken elections on as our responsibility as well and that's the um uh the 0.15 sales tax which expires in 2024 and I think the preference of staff is to try to renew

[72:00] it in 2023 so we're going to be supportive of staff on that unless people think that's not a good use of our time and then Matt do you want to talk a little bit about the idea on the Cannabis tax um yes so um in a lot of the work that Kurt and his team are doing and certainly the stresses on our communities we're going to be talking about math and stuff coming up one of the things that was sort of uh sort of came out of this was thinking about um a cannabis tax to specifically support enhancements and and growth in our efforts to support mental health and drug addiction in our community and to complement the resources that already exist out there and to sort of Leverage what we can do to sort of add to that since it is such a main stressor in our community and relying totally on outside resources May some may create some futility in us meeting our total objectives um so we've talked with Kurt and his team and getting some evaluation and so we're that's just it's early in the hopper but just wanted to throw out that idea to make sure if that's something that's of interest because we can again hit the e-brake or we can continue to

[73:00] pursue it gain more context and information and then bring back something that's a little bit more but just want to check in now before we pump too much into it in Exploration so this is sort of that check-in take the exit or go on the runway go ahead Nicole and then Rachel um yeah I think this is an interesting idea and I'd be um would would appreciate hearing a little bit more uh the other thing that I just think about is why just cannabis and not say alcohol as well or something like that right so I think just something else to kind of look into um just different kinds of substances and um yeah Rachel I love it and I want to know like did you invent the e-brake put your foot on the e-brake is that you tonight I've never heard that yeah I think that's my line for the night but I didn't invent it um so the action there's like no new there's no original one-liners in this world anymore you're just you're imitating everyone else so

[74:01] whoever out there had that imitation is flattery so if we don't know that person we're just gonna think it was you and think you were real cool I don't know but David Bell yesterday saying that HR does not do Whimsy to me was the one liner Sarah I want to make sure I'm holding just the base it's a lot of pressure here tonight I just want to check in with Ali about the dedicate yep about the dedicated tax for the Aging buildings we discussed yesterday and I know this is totally off the topic but it has to do with dedicated sales tax can we close off the conversation yeah unless we want to add it on to the candidate because I want because then Bob and I want to ask what other ideas she's asking if you want to add it onto the Cannabis though no okay if I hadn't even thought of that okay so I thought you were talking about a different topic so you're trying to stand yeah well I am kind of but not you know how I am yeah it's great I'm not really sure where I'm going but I do not want to forget about we'll see when you get there this request of allium where

[75:01] it can go whether on this particular cannabis or alcohol tax or some other dedicated sales tax or maybe not this year Ali have you thought all about these things Ally Rhodes director of Parks and Recreation wait what I think about funding our Parks and Recreation all day every day uh I will point out that the North and South Boulder recreation centers were built in 1973 bonding off of a cigarette excise tax and so uh I was also built in 1973 but I don't think cigarettes were involved so I what I what I would recommend and where I believe council is going Aaron Mr Mayor did you want to say something oh okay uh where I believe council is going as as while you are talking about ballot initiatives do you want to consider how to fund aging infrastructure I would encourage that conversation and again my colleague Joanna crayon who's not here tonight is going to be talking her she has some Wicked smart people on her team who are

[76:01] doing really great work about how you build a capital stack to take care of really expensive things like our recreation centers and so I think that conversation is coming there's a study session scheduled April something I don't know the data it's it's cut we're just here all the time on Thursdays right so it's um it's that conversation is coming and I would encourage you to to consider how uh your work can contribute to funding Aaron yeah I think this idea is a huge amount of promise and I guess just my hesitation would be like there's there's a universe of potential taxes and and so that like this is Nicole's point about potentially alcohol as well that makes sense to me we did a cigarette excise tax that sounds interesting you know so uh so I guess rather than just say oh we're going to do uh this text on marijuana to fund this thing I'd really like some analysis on our options and talk hear from the finance people here from Kurt in housing and Human Services because obviously mental health is an enormous need and I would love to have

[77:00] additional funds devoted to it but I just I would like to kind of think about the the universe of options before committing to one okay Lauren has some thoughts yeah I want to agree with that I think there are a lot of different things that we could tax um and so understanding you know the legal ramifications what we can and how much and why um but also sort of the equity who's affected by those taxes you know syn taxes tend to pass but they tend to have disproportionate effects so just really trying to understand who would benefit and who who the money's coming from and all of those kinds of things for looking at it a couple different ways Matt go ahead um probably just helpful context I mean the city brings in total in its total cannabis tax only three million dollars a year so so that's the full complement of roughly I think it's a little over

[78:00] eight percent that we do so just to give you context of the aggregation of money so when thinking about can cannabis fund the needs of infrastructure the parks likely not because we're only talking about a fraction of three million dollars so not that it wouldn't help but but we're talking about much we're talking many many zeros so to just give you a sense I don't we don't but Kara's team only did that analysis on the Cannabis but it'd be great to get their thoughts on alcohol as well and just see what kind of aggregation we're looking at so those are good points happy to look into those so this particular item before we move on to additional ideas does sound like Nuria there might be some staff bandwidth impacts here did you have thoughts well I think right now we're still in that world of imagination and wondering and I think these are all good ideas um and I think that's what um uh council member weiner was trying to get to as well like are there other uses for if there is going to be a tax and so I think it's great I think Finance staff can certainly I believe they have the capacity to support as you're thinking about that

[79:00] um and I just got a note from Judy that she is on her way so she's very excited she's been listening to some of these brilliant ideas and is hopefully arriving soon yay so it sounds like Council double checking you're comfortable with the charter committee carrying on with a full pay for Council uh 0.15 sales tax and cannabis tax to support sort of mental health and sort of associated ideas stop me if you feel differently okay now you have a question do you have any ideas for us on things that we should look at with regards to the Charter and or elections or other interesting things that you want to throw Bob and I to Chase y'all have any other cool ideas Aaron I just got a text from Junie that that she has some ideas but she's going to be here um so I think she'll be here very soon so we'll maybe we can maybe come back to it after okay so we'll pause okay

[80:03] just wanted to kind of plus one the whole mental health and trying to find more funding for that um it's definitely a huge need it is a growing need especially for youth like so all all in for trying to find some ways to fund some city services there Bob oh I just want to um great feedback really appreciate it um it's a really really big task for both staff and for Matt and me if we think about all the things we could tax on one column and all the things we we could spend that tax on the other columns so that's what we kind of came in with a pretty narrow proposal about cannabis and mental health um we can expand that we can talk about alcohol we can talk about shoes we can talk about all the other things we can taxes not shoes not shoes and we talked about all the needs we have because as as Ali and others have indicated we've got you know we've got infinite number of needs I just I have we're happy to work on anything but if we want to get something together in a package for us to consider this um summer we're gonna have to probably be relatively narrow on our Focus

[81:01] because there's an infinite number of things tax and infinite number we could spend things on money on so I just want to set expert lower expectations a little bit and and is it fair to say Bob that you and Matt have heard the ideas and the perspectives on Council you'll continue to work on it and bring them back your best idea and we'll continue to talk this is not a one-off thing you know we meet every month so we'll we'll continue to talk to each one of you one-on-one and if you've got other ideas I mean a few years ago some of you remember that Matt Applebaum wanted to do a head tax you want to do a head tax and we kept saying what do you want to spend the money on it doesn't matter I just want to do a head tax well okay so that's why I didn't go anywhere Matt go ahead I was just some more sort of try to kick back to are there any other ideas of things that we should look on that aren't even really tax related are there changes to the Charter changes to our elections I mean just just three for all chance for us to take that so that we can build our body of work in our subsequent meetings Nicole's got an idea and then Tara I was just gonna say maybe go back and look at our work plan um discussion last year because I think head tax was there I think Junior proposed a tax to support homelessness

[82:00] services so I I think there's other stuff there that maybe could be fodder for thinking um so it just wouldn't be clear we're not a tax committee um it's not to say we don't look at that no but but I mean the Cannabis thing only came out because that was just some idea that I had cooked up with a few other folks and we just had brought it up we can look at other taxes but I think the bigger tax stuff should be a much larger body conversation not through again Charter and elections so I don't want to punt I just want to honor that those larger discussions should be a larger body conversation no and so I think yes we should look at those but I I don't feel comfortable that in Charter elections we're a gatekeeper to those larger tax conversations yes definitely and but I think some of those specifically mentioned ballot measures to do things last year so that that was why um yeah okay very enough um but I want to make it known that I totally support the mental health idea with the Cannabis and I just don't want people to forget about our rec centers that's all I was really saying thank you

[83:00] it sounds sounds like a thing is coming though big big thinking about how to fund capital projects is coming so you'll have a minute or a couple hours to visit about that in the future and just noting again I'd received the same message that Juni has some thoughts to share so we'll go back to that I put um Juni thoughts on my on my agenda so we'll be sure we get to it Juni thoughts anyone else have present thoughts Charter things ballot things all right so until we hear from Judy carry on and then we'll Circle back okay awesome thanks all right want to talk a little bit about um uh Hill Mobility Solutions Bob this was something that you perfectly timing hey yep um Bob Hill Mobility Solutions can you frame it up for us and what are your hoping council could discuss today yeah this is something I think is already underway and and Natalie help help a little bit here um and Chris as well I mean and a whole bunch of other people

[84:00] you know I think we've we've talked for the last couple years about the fact that there's a conference center being built up at Grandview and 13th Street and um and there there will be hopefully if that works well and of course we're kind of a code in a way a co-developer of that we encourage them to build that there and we we want to make sure that that folks that are on the hill um after they're done with their little conference or whatever come downtown and spend the money we also want to make sure that people that the million the couple million people who come downtown every year actually go up to the hill because we're trying to one of the reasons why we're encouraging this is so that we Revitalize the hill and that the hill becomes a better more financially viable place and so it's a two-way thing the question is how do we get people up and down the hill I mean we all live here so we know it's not that hard but visitors oftentimes get a little um uh um a little bit of anxiety about how to get on the hill we have on Arboretum um that is not a fun place to walk through right now um Broadway is not a fun place to walk along and it's just kind of a steep hill so Out of Towners just get out of breath um and so overall the for all the flat lenders for all those reasons I think we

[85:01] want to continue and this is not a decision we have to make tonight which I just wanted to to put on the table that I hope that we continue to talk about and I know that Natalie and her team are working very hard on very short-term Mobility um discussions around 13th and Grandview and how do we make sure that's safe maybe medium-term um Solutions about how we make um uh pad and bike connections and then maybe longer term Solutions and so nothing really to talk about tonight other than to to make sure that we continue to have that on our work plan which I know I'm pretty sure it is but I don't know if Brad or Natalie want to comment on that yeah you go ahead well I would say we haven't really allocated it in the work plan yet we're all talking to each other about it um and I I mean and that's not to say that it possibly can't be added later in the year um we need to From transportation's perspective we need to look at just resources and it really would be I think a pretty closely tied pnds and

[86:02] transportation because there would be and I mean really all four of our departments so um we can certainly look at it and it's top of mind we just haven't actually allocated resources to it yet do you have anything to add Brad yeah um so Brad Mueller planning and development services I I think you framed it um councilmember Yates exactly how we've been thinking of it which are there going to be some immediate needs that we've already worked through in terms of uh uh Street approvals for the new hotel there are some intermediate ones once it gets built that will be very operational and kind of simple Capital uh think you know improvements along Broadway but the bigger vision is um I think we've recognized is uh more of a connectivity study than a Mobility one because it has land use implications if we're thinking of anything that's larger so we've kind of started to frame it in those terms and then to Natalie's Point that's then then something that probably

[87:01] needs a uh you know uh takeoff ramp and a plan and and then going forward so probably falling more into a traditional land use planning process but it's on the radar and it was part of that discussion yesterday about coordinating downtown initiatives I know everything's an emergency so I'm not saying that this one is oops but I think the hotel is going to be ready in like two years correct right so that that gets to the point of um there are already things that will be improved as part of the approval of the hotel the part we could approve which was just the streets and access then there'll be things that transportation is already thinking about in terms of

[88:01] e-bikes and stations and I don't want to speak for you but like bus routes and things like that responding to the expectation of that this longer thing of potential capital expenditure implications to Boulder High School land to the Arboretum you know those types of things that that needs to be comprehensively thought through because of all the implications to other aspects so it wouldn't be in place by the time the hotel nor would it need to be from a capacity standpoint I would submit but it's how do we enhance beyond that and imagine it's it's future in a way that's cool and meaningful and and really further ties them together Beyond just a functional way but in a way that maybe is a feature so to speak we'll talk offline sounds good anything else on this item yeah I'm satisfied I realize this is this potentially moves into 24 and 25

[89:00] and that's fine I just wanted to make sure we had it on our radar and I just want to observe this is my eighth Council Retreat and it's the first one that I haven't uttered the word gondola but I get it there's no Yahtzee now man hi Judy hello so glad that you made it it sounded like from the texting that perhaps you had some suggestions for the charter and election committee thank you so much interestingly I was in the room and I know Rachel mentioned oh well I'm one of seven and I was like I'm here I'm here I'm online so um so I thought okay I might as well just come in to be part of this conversation because I couldn't participate online and I think it actually I know I mentioned the comment that I was sitting on brilliant ideas because that's what you said you said maybe junie's at home sitting on

[90:00] brilliant ideas so I'm like I said that but ultimately I just assumed she didn't tell me that I just assumed yeah that was just something I said but I can make two comments just to please uh the two of you my first comment was about the payment of council members I thought I welcome that idea you know all of you know that I I came to council as a student and then I graduated and I look at my experience if Council was a paid job my experience probably would have been different because even on Council I was trying to make a living so maybe if we do pay council members we would have more diversity so I welcome that having that conversation with Community but I wouldn't want that to stop us because I know a lot of this conversation it takes time it takes staff timing as well so maybe also doing an analysis of cost of living for here in Boulder right how

[91:01] much what would it be like how much would we have to pay someone to be able to live off being a council member because none of us can do that right now and I don't know I get paid so little I don't even think about how much I make on Council I said ten thousand but I've heard it's more than ten thousand to a thousand see I don't even count it because it's so little it is a lot According to some some community members and another thing that I thought about um the question about who should take over as mayor I like Rachel's idea about the third one CAC I think that's a great idea but also another thought that I had as well as part of that is maybe as well incorporate some of the new people who wants to do it right because some people probably are thinking I really want to do this job some people don't want to do it but those who want to do it give them the opportunity to learn the job and get some perspective so open up opening up to the group so maybe yes so you punt it to the first person to the Third on CAC

[92:01] and if they're not interested punt it to the group so that everybody else can get the opportunity as well and I heard some of the comments about the charter committee and the work that you're doing I know I mentioned the homelessness tax But ultimately we want to ensure community members are housed so I'm not married to any of these ideas and I know that my time on Council is very limited as well so thank you thanks Judy I'm so glad that you made it all right anything else on that topic fantastic all right um so I want to make sure we spend most of our time the remaining time on homelessness I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page about what it is you think you might possibly be saying about ordinances from pdns so what I think I heard last night uh Matt correct me if I'm wrong is you suggesting to staff hey while you're doing all those cool things that Brad told you about last night if if you see ways to improve things that would involve an ordinance change we encourage

[93:00] you to bring them to us is that a fair summary I'm one person and I won't speak for Rachel who joined me on the ask On The Hotline I felt comfortable with that I was actually really pleasantly surprised that given all the work that we've thrown on Brad and his team's plate that they that he feels that yeah while we're doing our work we can start flagging those roadblocks those handcuffs and and start to build maybe a package towards the end of the year that looks at what those things are that's perfectly satisfactory to me um but I but that that's my perspective and that kind of is opening the the box that he says that staff have never really been asked that question before so yes if that's a chance to go I'm good with that so I feel comfortable council members are you comfortable with that nodding is good thumbing is good thank you fantastic Brad do you need any more information from Council fantastic Nori are you cool I am cool and if uh we're heading to homelessness now unless folks have anything else there are some folks here that are welcome to stay and perhaps also welcome to go on a Friday night

[94:02] staff anyone in particular that you would like to have stayed to be part of your discussion on homelessness they all right do you agree that Nat folks do you agree that Natalie is excused fantastic I I think that we agree that you should have the expertise in the room that you need so I'm pretty sure you need Kurt who else I think it's everyone but Chris and Natalie Chris and Natalie Brad is welcome to stay um but they're going to do it with popcorn and Milk Duds and it's going to be great thank you all all right so let's now visit about homelessness uh right no no this is my first time um right the mayor's not here the mayor Pro tem isn't running the meeting so I was it fell to me I was like the last person standing um so Matt and Rachel you were the first

[95:01] ones to raise this and then several of you sort of um plus one day with some additional perspectives um so it's not everyone has had uh time best necessarily to review your comments did you want to reframe it for us and um how can we attend to it appropriately this evening um I think Matt's got a nice list over there so I'll turn it over to him I will just say that um we have we don't have a lot of opportunities to speak to each other in a room at the same time in a more unstructured format without Robert's Rules so that's why um and and I will just note I was thinking when I looked around the table last night I think with the exception of Kurt this whole table has changed since I got on Council three years ago I think everybody's new to their job that I know Al you were with the city but I think maybe you had just taken over um we're in different positions we're not directors I think with the exception of of Kurt so we have not as a group gotten to talk about this um really crucial issue um nor as a council I think as as the

[96:02] new council members haven't done it I think Judy and I we we had a little moment in like early 2020 with Adam sputlik where we were right at I believe Aaron had had left with the stomach flu from the last from that first Retreat where we had Aaron took off we got into homelessness it was only for like 10 minutes so we really have not had this opportunity and so that's why Matt and I lifted up a couple of of Just Thoughts we were having and I also want to say I was um I just I got the treat of riding with about 40 minutes in a car ride with Megan to race to get here we were out touring um a safe outdoor space and day Services Center in Denver and there's just a lot going on around the state around the region around the country on homelessness that we haven't had a chance to really just just chat amongst ourselves in ways that we can help and make changes and maybe as I said yesterday just not do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result and I think with that that we we are not getting the results

[97:01] um that we want for our community clearly the you know community members who are most impacted have I don't think their situation has gotten better in my three years I'm guessing Bob would say the same thing and Aaron for seven years so um that that's kind of where I was coming from with this and I will let Matt kind of run through what we had hotlined thanks Rachel thanks Rachel so are obviously I mean our intent was to really just get this on the table and let us let this the whole group sort of drive but I think the one thing that we were really hoping on is to is you know we're not making we're not setting policy we're not setting decisions we acknowledge that but to kind of have some direction some outcomes that point us in a direction of where we're cumulatively thinking so when it comes time to building some more cohesive or when uh Kirk comes back to us in April we we've done some of that pre-work amongst ourselves so that those conversations are just more fruitful and we kind of

[98:00] get into action mode perhaps a step or two earlier than we other mice would have been maybe without this dialogue so that was our kind of intent and we had some general we had some areas that we sort of were hoping to get some outcomes on is you know in stakeholder engagement in really thinking about that larger strategy that cohesive vision of where we want to go forward and tackle the areas that we're having a trouble with now um you know as it was brought up as thinking about can is there a way to get fresh eyes on this is there a way to just get someone who's get some somebody's just got a completely different vantage point to just kind of tell us what we're doing well we're doing right maybe show us some things a little differently and so Rachel's idea of a consultant might be helpful to get us just sort of just a different kind of barometer also thinking about how we think of that Homeless strategy I know we have a connected homeless strategy with the county that was 2017 I think the situation of unhousing our community is woefully different than 2017 so maybe what that looks like in revamping in conjunction with the county and then that's really a fold into can we get a good sense of where we want to go ahead

[99:00] of that conversation with the county if we all come into that conversation all with nine different ideas we're going to get laughed out of that room so it's really important that we have some cohesive set of asks maybe demands of what we want our County to partner with us on and so this is a place for hopefully us to have it what are the responsibilities housing mental health and drugs what do we do with money who gets what I mean so I think those are questions there I do want to respect because Mark is not present that we address his questions that he put in that hotline those are some thoughtful questions I think want to make sure we have some space to to go through those and then lastly the other one is where do we what are the carrots and sticks that we want to be advocating for with regards to getting effective policy at both the county and the state level so those are some things that I think are important for us to to kind of embark on so those are kind of a list of at least from our hotlines perspective that we wanted to kind of drive towards some directions or see if there's cohesive thought on any of those pieces and just sort of open the floor for conversation as a stepping stone for many many others

[100:01] to go forward as we try to evolve our strategy into something that we think we can believe in and we'll start to have positive impacts going forward and then Nicole you had also added um in the thread just about what we think about stakeholders to be broader and maybe also more specific as we think about specific categories of stakeholder groups is that right yeah go ahead yeah and I just wanted to make sure we clarify for the discussion are we talking about the broad category of homelessness are we talking about specifically single adult unsheltered homelessness like what is where are we with this because there it looks there are lots of different ways in the hotline I think we said um unsheltered single adult okay narrows it down a little bit okay um so others of you sort of sent some version of yeah that's an important topic we should talk about that Mark did have some very specific questions um wondering

[101:00] um what you are thinking about this I was actually thinking yesterday when the idea of the the Note new news to me that you're having a joint session with the Commissioners came up I was like oh yeah you should probably think about this before you show up cold to that um and so I wonder if a place to start might be to hear from staff on if they had anything already planned for that conversation would that be useful just to give you something to riff off of so you're not starting on a blank sheet of paper do you have a plan well let me kick it off and then I'll send it to Kirk because I'll say that we don't have a plan quite yet we actually are scheduling a meeting with our County Partners next week hopefully to discuss a little bit about it the high level plan had been originally um let's talk about our homeless strategies in general and what we do in conjunction we know that there are things that we do together as a partner we know that you all had a desire originally when the topic came up to talk a little bit more about what is the County's role could the county be doing

[102:00] something differently what is the city's role there's another series of conversations to be had that frankly is about what the city does and how we respond in homelessness and I know that's a discussion frankly the county is hoping not to get mired into that that really is a sort of a separate conversation but so we'll continue to be thinking about that this conversation will be helpful as we think about it because what it may do is is help us understand a little bit more of the direction you may want to go to and we'll be able to bring that to our County conversations but kurd not to well not to put you on the spot but I'm about to um what's fascinating about the conversation is that it's so timely and it's been so timely to all the directors that are around this table talking about the issue but in particular I know Kurt you've been thinking a lot about our homelessness strategies in general you know uh more intimately than any of us it's been a while since those have been looked at and have been thinking about that as well so I just invite you to share any thoughts about that or anything else that has come up

[103:02] sure good evening so Kurt fernhauer supporting housing Human Services so just to respond to your your one comment Rachel so as was stated our strategy is is about five years old now in our Creation with Boulder County and Longmont in Homeless Solutions for Boulder County came about that time but slightly after so we're we're on sort of a five-year um refresh of that we've had conversations over the last couple months at HSBC about also the significance of the five years and we've had conversations about having an outside consultant coming after five years and say okay this is what this was our starting point this was our strategy

[104:00] how did it work you know looking at the outcomes looking at what has changed like you mentioned and um uh any changes in sort of best practice that have occurred since five years ago and really having someone come in and do an evaluation of of the various programs that we do and how they integrate um with that said what we have now is significantly different than what we had five years ago and even what we planned to have so the the programs have emerged as well so I would support council's Direction in you know in having that sort of assessment done of the various programs I think a good conversation to have would with the commissioners is you know what's what's the scope of that

[105:00] um is it an HSBC thing is it a boulder thing we're very tough our programs are very tied are closely knit together with with Boulder County and Longmont um our our data system we use the same data system um so I I would certainly see advantages to having it more of a collaborative approach um but I would welcome to hear that conversation with the Commissioners as well skirt the other thing I don't want to forget is Bob you would also had on your list the camp can't be bad enforcement which seems like is also part of this um so Rachel or Matt maybe we could start with you all Rachel in particular you said doing the same thing all over again inspecting a different result have you given yourself have you given any thought to what else you might want to see folks consider trying a lot of thought over over three plus years um so you know I've I've long advocated

[106:02] for um safe outdoor spaces um and so I think that we could look pretty hard at um and Matt and I hotlined uh a resolution that the city of Oakland had done a couple years ago where their city council really laid out like here are places that we are going to prioritize enforcement of the camping man and then there's these other other places where we're not going to and so I think that um looking for for places where we can stop bopping people around who um are are in the in the city and and sleeping and living here would be a helpful step and I know that um Joe's team works hard on on uh you know cleanups and so is there a way that we can um not not be sort of cleaning up unnecessarily and and I again would tie that from from my perspective to um the the visit that that I did today

[107:01] and I don't know if anyone uh you know if Megan wants to speak to her experiences at a safe outdoor spaces or not but um you know it it is a a lovely thing to have people who are living in in kind of orderly tents that are not being moved around and have access to showers and a little kitchen area and a heater in the tent and support like the the outcomes that we were described today are are pretty amazing in Denver like they they're exiting a lot of people into um homes and and she described the gal who herself has lived experience and and was formerly unhoused with saying you know we um you know we have an agreement with people to kind of do a survey of the tent once a week to see like if people are are having hoarding tendencies to sort of help them to to debride and be prepared to move into their next housing

[108:00] situation and you know help them be prepared to get along with neighbors and mediate things like that so um it looks like to me like a pretty successful program uh I know that that it would be difficult from staff perspective to tack it on which is part of why I had suggested like maybe Consultants can help us look through things or advise like is that a best practice my my gut says and the the outcomes in Denver would seem to support that it is a good way to move um I would love to see us do that I I'm I'm leery of of sort of I don't know overstepping my my balance and what we're going to talk about are centered on what I want and I'm I'm not a complete expert in this topic I did I did run as a CEO a group home for people who had exited homelessness so I have some ideas I think that also there's some National Best Practices that you know sanctioned outdoor space tents aren't the best like you'd rather do modular or

[109:00] manufactured housing that's better we heard today that um it's like four or five hundred dollars for a rather industrial tent it's ten or eleven thousand dollars for um uh the the kind of Next Step Up what were the pallet homes um and then it's like forty thousand dollars for a tiny home so uh you know I think for those sorts of things you have to identify plots of land so um you know where you can where you can cite that ideally City on land or County on land so that is one thing um I would like us to look at we also have a day Center day services and Center um idea happening uh on when Bob and I toured we heard loud and clear that uh overnight shelters are around the state converting to 24-Hour shelters and it's not helpful to have people have to leave in the in the morning and go somewhere else so day Services is great but a 24-hour shelter is is better and then you just have the services at the day

[110:00] place and you're you know coordinating people with services so those are a couple ideas that I would throw out that um I've been advocating for for a number of years uh and and I think that our um I unders I I am empathetic and understand that it is unideal to have people camping um in certain spots I I empathize the the parents near the high school I don't think that's ideal I don't think bike paths are ideal I don't think parks are ideal so um not not insensitive to that but I think the other part of that equation is then we we have to have more places that people can go thanks Rachel for kicking off the conversation noria did you want to jump in before we I just had a clarifying question because what I'm um hearing um council member is um uh desire to explore a variety of potential transitional housing options that could go from tents that could go from modular housing to tiny home Villages for a variety of things but there's a desire perhaps for a potential

[111:00] consultant to think about what that transitional housing could look like and if that is in fact a best practice is that is that some a little bit of that up I think so and I think that that's how we tried to present it in the hotline Post in advance that you know we pointed to um I think Mountain View California and Denver as examples of one with manufactured housing and one with tents and both are having success other Council perspectives oh there's so many um Matt go ahead and then Bob and then Aaron and then everyone over here just really everyone I I I really want to listen to my colleagues because we put up the hotline but I'll just say like from where I agree with what Rachel has said so we should validate what she was saying um and they're not mutually exclusive and some of these are temporally different a tense stuff can be done lickety-split modular homes and largest things can take while so there's a way that we can sort of think about short medium and long term in terms of the resources we have and how quickly we can lift some of these up so

[112:01] um that that that's something that I think is important for us because the critical need is is yesterday and so the urgencies here unlike some things where we have a long Runway to plan we have to think about how we get these things up yesterday last week last year so that that's the the critical time frame of that I think is what's what's really interesting to me is what can we lift up the fastest perhaps even the least expensive so we already provide relief early and then those longer things can phase in as necessary but but not letting maybe Perfection be the enemy of the immediate good that we can do for a number of people and and I just want to make sure Kurt has an opportunity if he has questions to jump in as well but um it would be um good as you continue to have this conversation to have some clarity um if the desire is to because because for example tenting which can be quick um is it just a place where people can set up a tent is it a place where people can set up a tent and we add bathrooms or hand washing facilities is if that is

[113:00] the case then we also need to amend the current policy that bans camping everywhere so I just as we continue to have the conversation your Clarity will be the best gift that we can have as we continue to move our work forward perhaps additional members of council will provide some clarity in their own comments Bob go ahead and then we'll go to Aaron well I'm not going to add any Clarity but I I do want to add an overlay of of consideration as we consider all services whether it's um overnight Housing Services day Services longer term tenting which I think uh the Kurt's last memo from a year and a half ago estimated it was you know roughly twenty four thousand dollars a camper per year to all the things that Rachel talked about the whole Continuum you know food everything and I guess overlaying all of that whether it's housing food Mental Health Services whatever always has to be the question for whom for whom are we going to provide that service is it all comers because there's 500 000 homeless people in this country and so are we going to provide that

[114:01] service to 500 000 people we're going to provide it to the a few tens of thousands of people live in the state of Colorado the the 150 to 200 homeless people live in Boulder today but there's going to be a different 150 or 200 people that live in Boulder next week and the week after the week after I don't have an answer to that question but I just want to make sure that we're not thinking that this is like a finite small group of identifiable people Chuck Mary Bill Bob and all we have to do is take care of them and then we're all done because as Kurt has pointed out to us on average we have four new unhoused people show up in town every day and they replace four people who move on to the next town and so um what's the cutoff is it one day one week one month one year no cut off all comers we're going to provide all housing and all food and all Sheltering and all everything to all comers or are the cutoffs and if there are cutoffs then we run some legal problems and so I'm I'm not providing Solutions here I'm just throwing out problems or challenges super helpful yeah I know and so I I

[115:00] don't have I don't have opinion on any of these things I just want to make sure that we don't lose track of the for whom question because that's going to be so important as we calculate the costs of whatever it is we want to provide and also is it's an operational of a function like you know does anybody who shows up get whole panoply of services or or is there is are there some filters here hard questions thanks Bob Aaron yeah nothing about these issues is simple right this is an incredibly difficult situation that our society as a whole has to some extent created and completely failed to solve but I really appreciate Matt and Rachel for bringing this forward for us to discuss tonight because we need to do some additional things and and we need to change at least some of our strategies because I think as as anyone who walks around town for a few days can tell you is that there we have a significant major problem with unsheltered homelessness in our town that's it's not good for the people experiencing it and their you know impacts to the community the rest of the community from it as well and so

[116:00] I we need some additional and new new Solutions and so I really appreciate you bringing this forward so I really Kurt I appreciate you talking about that five-year Point yeah I was there in 2017 right and we put approved the plan and did a lot of new things that I think many of them have been very successful we've housed any number of people right which has been amazing but but clearly we have we haven't fixed the problem right um and so having bringing a consultant to look at what the opportunities are with a from a national best practices perspective sounds really good to me and the thing that I would say about that is what I'd really love to look at are the the gaps in what we provide and potential uh solutions to those gaps because I think we designed a really good system in many ways but there are people for whom the solutions that we have don't work and an analysis okay who who is whose needs are not met by our current services and in what different ways and what are ways that folks who

[117:00] aren't getting help or aren't they aren't working for what could work for them and so the the safe outdoor space alternative I think is a really good one I've supported that for years I think it's very much worth looking at and Nora I would say to to your question there personally I mean I I would not say well just hey that parking lot anybody set up a tent over there I wouldn't go that way I mean maybe the consultant would tell us that's the best practice I'm going to guess they're not going to say that so you know I would say the the Denver model if we're talking about tents the Denver model is to me a Minimum in terms of you're providing high quality tents with heaters with bathroom facilities and showers and things like that so obviously I'm not the expert here and I would look to an expert for their recommendations but from what I've seen in my research on it and and visiting places around the country that would be kind of my minimum on a on a tent thing um and Matt I thought Matt had good points about that it's they're probably tears to this right because the an appeal of a safe outdoor space is that it's relatively cheap and can be stood

[118:01] up relatively quickly you can find an operator to help you run it which is a really hard problem that we'll need a lot of work but then the other like tiny home Villages have been very successful they cost more they take longer to set up but I think we probably need a um a variety a tiered set of solutions for different people's situations and so I think we do need to do some things more and differently and I would very much like an expert to come in and help us figure that out Nicole yeah I've been trying to write down a bunch of thoughts those people are talking um because I got a lot scenario I spend a lot of time thinking about um so I think you know one of the things I'm hearing folks say is you know we need an outside consultant I feel like we actually have a lot of expertise already right here in our community and we've had a lot of folks in our community giving us ideas on what to do for quite some time so thinking

[119:00] back to early 2021 I believe it was have an HRC put together a joint couple of white papers on some ideas that they thought might work in Boulder and how how to make some evidence-based Solutions work in Boulder I believe one was on tiny homes the other was on safe parking and they had some very specific ideas about how to make that work right here in our city I think last fall and I think just recently again for possibly the first time ever all the providers in our community came together and sat at the same table and came up with a list of things that they would like to see in our community so I think you know we've got that information from the folks who are already working here who have some ideas certainly our County and City staff that have been working on these issues for a long time time and then we also have a lot of people with lived experience in our community and shout out to one in the audience um so you know I really I'm not sure you know what what would an outside person bring that we don't already have here so

[120:03] I think that's that's one question that I have um and I think even even regionally we've got some good ideas I mean Rachel I heard you talking about some of the folks that you've been visiting I know you went up to Fort Collins as well to check out the Murphy Center and some other places so I think even regionally we have a lot and the metro Denver homeless initiative they had in their report I believe it was the 2020 report I haven't I know they just released the 2023 one I haven't dived into it yet but they had a list of kind of all the services that needed to be in place in order for a community to have a thorough response to unsheltered homelessness so you know I think even there we we have a lot of expertise to draw from some of the other things that I think about as we dive into thinking about unsheltered homelessness is what are we cutting to get the money and staff time that is I think something always you know to think about we are

[121:00] resource limited for now maybe the charter committee aka the tax committee can can think about something shoes right yeah exactly um but but you know what I I mean it's a very real question right none of these things are free none of them are going to just pop out of thin air so how realistically are we going to get to these places where do we start I think you know once once we have an idea of all the world the possibilities that's out there how do we then prioritize in terms of what's going to get us there faster and you know the other thing that I think about a lot and I think even just seeing how unsheltered homelessness seems like it's been rising in our community over the last couple of years over the course of the pandemic how are we working on prevention because we can keep putting Band-Aids on the escaping wound but at what point are we also really truly investing in some of the prevention measures for homelessness and so these are things like increasing

[122:00] housing costs and I love that about our Council but the one thing we always agree on almost is housing we've got you know Rising economic inequality and insecurity we have a rising Mental Health crisis we have Addiction on the rise uh Chief you know I know you know as well as I do drugs are increasing and they are not good drugs that are out there right now and it's not just our unsheltered folks who are having those those experiences so what are we doing about that too because that also is a a factor in all of this so anyway that was a long long list of things but I'm not quite done and I think you know the other thing that we really need to figure out is what problem are we trying to solve is it people camping in public spaces is it people camping period because I know that for some folks in our community having people live in tents is not satisfying as a solution is it the lack of support for mental health and

[123:01] addiction lack of providers things like that is it housing insecurity is it homelessness I mean are we really trying to eradicate homelessness in our community I think it's really essential that we we figure out you know what what we are interested in and then I think another really critical thing for us to get on the same page about is are we working with the same facts um so you know do we understand who our unsheltered homeless are because I'm out there almost every week working with a lot of folks in the community who are experiencing unsheltered homelessness and many of them are the same people I've been seeing for two years so you know there's this idea of how many folks are coming to our community and are new and our people coming here just because of our services that's not what I hear from folks who are out there um I think understanding what are evidence-based Solutions that's a really critical question how do our how does our unsheltered homeless Community differ from our sheltered Community because I think you know we think a lot that it's just people who are

[124:01] unsheltered who are coming to our community but I'm sure that many of you like me also know very few people who are from Boulder who were born here so we you know we come from all over so I think understanding some of those things and then because of our racial Equity goals what are the equity implications of how we are providing services and how we're thinking about prevention I think these are all really important questions so I know pretty much all I have are questions but these are I think some of the things that we we need to understand what it is we're trying to do and what the world of possibilities are before we dive into what we what we can do and also just this idea of relying on the expertise that's already here and the folks who've already done a lot of work I would I would like to have a Frank discussion so I'm going to be frank and let's see how it goes all right okay good

[125:00] um we have so many problems in this city-state country right now so we can just sit here forever and talk about them which we've all done and it's very depressing so instead I'm going to talk about some of the things that are more practical so for me when it comes to sanctioned encampments I wanted why I like the idea of a consultant I get your ideas why we have a lot of experts but also this subject has become really politicized and so it makes me more comfortable to have somebody that isn't on any quote side to come in and just look at everything in a just very practical way without putting anything on Twitter or next door to be frank if I say that my goal for instance is there's two things there's a few things I worry about when it comes to encampments I'm worried about these sexual assault and the drug use especially the math epidemic and if we don't admit that there is a meth epidemic I realize that it's everywhere

[126:00] but it's also in our encampments and I don't think it's good I think it's terrible and my husband's psychiatrist says when you continually take Matthew it's very hard to after the fifth time for it to turn around so you have a we have a huge problem on our hands so when we say for instance we want bathrooms well we have to make sure that those bathrooms are built in a way so that we don't have to reconstruct them with meth use because that is going to happen so I would really like to be frank and not worry so much about feelings but just be you know just say we have a problem with Matthews we have a problem yes we have Ram with Matthews but also with the unhoused and it's not a small thing to figure out what's a solution I personally would rather see at transitional homes like the kind you had in your pictures from Mountain View I like those because I don't visualize people being in Colorado and blizzards feeling safe

[127:01] in a tent even if it's heated I would rather see little not even tiny homes but whatever that second tier was in a row I would like to see that we also need to talk about how much money it is per person we do because we do spend a lot of money on homelessness and now we're going to spend a whole lot of money on a sanctioned encampment that holds what 25 people's at 35 000 a person so I also have a lot of questions that I'm bringing up but I'd like it to be that we talk about it in a Frank way and what are we going to do about you know meth and how it affects our Solutions and um why I like the consultant idea is I I'm worried that yay we saw two and two sanctioned encampments that worked but if there are a hundred that don't work and two that do work do work those are things we need to know how many actually did work and didn't work so is there more success when we talk about best practices is there more

[128:01] success all over the country in similar cities with which method that's the question so even though I can't visualize tense being great I'm not saying that they're not the thing but at least if we get somebody who's not politically or emotionally involved in the discussion in the city we would perhaps get more facts and even you know facts are in the eye of the beholder so when people tell me oh well look at these latest figures or whatever it depends who's saying them I can hear two different things with the same facts from two different sides to be honest so that's why I like the idea of the consultant do I have anything else I want to say this this this that um so to me the franker the better we'll hear from Judy and then from Rachel and then from Lauren thank you so much and also I was just thinking to myself earlier I'm not sure if I greeted all of you it is truly an honor to serve

[129:00] with all of you by the way um and I'm glad to be here tonight I want to say what I hear from Rachel about the safe outdoor spaces I actually do like the idea so I've been on the same side with you since we've been on Council on this issue whether I've vocalized it or not I like the idea of the modular homes the tiny homes and I do like the idea of having an expert and part of the reason why um again I think that would free up some time for Kurt as opposed to having your team and your staff doing all that work you can you know have someone else look into it as well and I can imagine as Tara mentioned it would depoliticize things in a way um for community members as well and um I yeah I think as of right now that's a good idea but I think maybe part of it as well is that we have to consider scope what is it that we want that

[130:00] consultant to do for us because I remember we had a either a council meeting a general business meeting or a study session we talked about where right we've talked about we had some conceptual ideas of maybe I'm thinking we talked about endorse some industrial areas so I think hey if we're going to have a consultant where is where in the community is that something that we can have one or is it too consultant one who looks at land use or and then you can look at the other issues or ideas surrounding that particular issue and there's another thing I wanted to say as part of this conversation and I think as you live you you're growing you're learning and I just think again as we mentioned tonight that homelessness is an extremely complex situation and you mentioned what is facts it means means different things to different people based on their experiences and I was like yes that is so true because I live in South Boulder and for about three or

[131:01] four months I was working in Denver and I was taking the ff1 to Union Station and you know we think about Denver doing a good job According to some of us there's so many homeless people living in Union Station it it's amazing to see that and you're wondering wow I heard the city is doing great work but when I showed up down here it's a whole different world it's very very very very different and it's a different experience and I'm not I'm not sure I can say when I see these other human beings down there with me as part of that experience I can put it in positive terms so there is that aspect of it as well so that is my thoughts thank you Jenny Rachel and then Lauren I'm just wanted to add a couple things that I forgot to mention earlier um I think to to Tara's point about the you know sort of another reason maybe to have the outside Consultants

[132:01] um is maybe just some Community buy-in for people who might be skeptical of um you know like when I had requested um Nicole referred to the hab and HRC report that was a request I think maybe Aaron and Junior and I made I don't remember but um it was it was not you know we appoint those boards and it was not seen as as an apolitical um results and and same thing with our local providers and stakeholders and you know which includes obviously people with lived experience um you know if we have somebody who who has who has seen as neutral and objective and sort of an expert I think it could be a national expert who who coincidentally lives in Boulder or in Denver or whatever like I don't mean we have to pull someone in from New Jersey but um that that person can pull together the stakeholder so I'm not suggesting that we don't don't listen to the people with the wealth of of knowledge here but

[133:01] um that that should be part of it so just wanted to clarify that part um about Community buy-in and and and that stakeholders would certainly be included and listening to um also someone had said that it's hard to find someone to operate these spaces I wanted to say that the the gal today said she'd love to come work in Boulder she the one who runs the really good uh spots in in Denver so I gave her my card I have her card um uh you know should we go that route that [Laughter] they're they're doing a really good job um we also had a couple presentations today and Megan I hope you'll correct me if I'm misstating this but um as I think most of us know the the money saved by getting um individuals housing or off the streets and and you know reduced uh Court contacts and er trips is is you know we we have a savings rather than it actually costing us societally so I don't know how you

[134:00] convert like you know if ER trips are down 75 but we're paying for people in um you know an SOS type environment is there a way for us to get that money like from the ER basically or for the hospital system to pay for that I don't know how that works you know societally it's a savings but as a city how do we convert that so that's a maybe a question for the consultant um you know I Aaron mentioned gaps and and it has felt um to some degree like we've had a more of a housing only policy and so um you know the housing first has has really been great I think for people who get the vouchers but it has left a lot of people who don't have them and are still unsheltered without um much help and and some of the goal of housing first is to stabilize people and then you can see those benefits of the reduced ER visits and the reduced criminal contacts and and people are starting to have supports to get sober and the other things that they need so just wanted to flag that you know it is

[135:02] a big gap um Tara mentioned weather the the gal today said that they you know we've in the last three years they've had a lot of really cold nights and almost no one wants to leave the tents um in those sanctioned outdoor spaces that um they've got a nice heater inside of them and people don't want to leave their home like they they don't want to leave their belongings and don't leave their home so it does actually work even in this weather and they also mentioned that crime rates not just inside these sanctioned spaces but in the community around them goes down so like it's pretty amazing um the success that that that is bringing to the communities um and I think that is all I wanted to add thanks thanks Rachel Lauren what's on your mind you um so appreciate everything everyone said I think there's not very much left but um for my two cents on the topic

[136:01] um when Kurt when you brought up bringing in a consultant one of the things that appealed to me about that specifically is if the county is willing to also collaborate in that because I think that you know one of the issues and this has been brought up a little bit but um the shelter and sort of what what best practices currently are and how that can be best utilized and um I think that in some respects the city and the county don't while we all want to do the best for our communities I think that it doesn't are goals don't always completely align and I think that there are ways in which the shelter is managed that puts some additional burden on the city um and I think that a consultant might help facilitate some of those discussions

[137:02] um but I think you know as Nicole brought up relying on the local knowledge and making sure that we are really including voices of people who are affected and who understand these systems from you know lived experience is really important I think that similarly a consultant could be helpful in helping us understand better whose needs aren't being met again just because they don't have the skin in the game that you know we have and through the programs you know that you've spent a lot of time developing so I think that that might help give us an unbiased new or biased in a different way just a new look at um the problems we're facing and in terms of transitional housing I would really

[138:00] support us looking at um sanctioned encampments or tiny homes you know I think Denver's model is a particularly successful model that we would be smart to try and learn as much as we can from one of the things that they do there is the locations aren't permanent so there isn't as much [Music] um they they change locations within the city I think it's every two years um and so there's a little bit less like this is going to be in my neighborhood forever kind of opposition is my understanding so I think that we might want to think about that as we think about what kinds of housing we might choose and you know if it is a relocatable thing that has implications um yeah but yay let's look at more solutions uh yeah Nicole go ahead and then Tara

[139:01] and they met yeah I just had a couple follow-ups after listening I wanted to kind of lift up one thing Matt said about you know short-term Solutions through long-term Solutions I mean part of the issue with having a consultant is that it takes time right and and as we talk right as many groups have talked and you know have an HRC and all those folks have talked over the years people have died um and I think that's that's worth us remembering and so you know as as folks are at risk who don't have shelter um what are we doing that's going to ensure that this isn't just getting the can kicked down the road again you know that there's a conversation that's had we come up with some new ideas new Council comes in and everything kind of is overturned so what what are the safety things that we would put in place to make sure that this is work that if we start it it will continue

[140:00] um I think I think that's if we're going to be spending more time talking about Solutions I think it's critical that we really figure out how does the buck stop in the next couple of years and we really start moving forward with action and I think to that long-term point if we aren't also focused on prevention this also gets so much worse in in many ways than and I think that that idea of family homelessness that we really haven't had a deep discussion on either is a really important one because family of homelessness does predict adult homelessness and so what are we doing to prevent this issue as we're investing time resources into trying to create some stop Gap Solutions and address immediate needs for those who are unsheltered and I think too you know one question that I have is for right now my understanding is that the federal money that comes in for homelessness really is based on this housing first strategy and I think we're all seeing that that there are some issues there and how do we fill that Gap if we're thinking about

[141:00] solutions that aren't housing first until the federal government gets to some different kinds of funding mechanisms so just something I think for us to think about too that if there are if there are things we're changing does that impact the funding that we would be receiving for services and and what do we do about that Tara and then Matt and then Aaron I just want to go back to what my colleague Juni said which was really a good observation is although Denver does have this successful um sanctioned encampment let's say it's successful there was also a lot of homelessness in Denver so let's say that sanction accountants are not decreasing homelessness but they're helping some people so I wouldn't mind if we for me to even have this conversation and if you say

[142:00] yes to this Council this is me making a deal here no if you say yes to this then I'm going to say yes I don't care sanction encampments tiny houses everything do your thing but I think that the goal for me would be for the public spaces to become used again like for instance you know the degradation at the um the creek which we all agree with and the children's fishing pier and um you know the bike underpasses and such to me the end goal would be to for the public to be able to use that again my other end goal is to have a place where people who are mentally uh who have mental health and behavioral health issues to actually get better and then also drug addiction facility uh with treatment facilities thank you but

[143:02] for me ultimately it is also that you know the public spaces is on the community's mind they they want the public spaces to be used for the public and for kids and for and to feel safe and I think that that's valid but we as a council have to help these people so I think that's also valid but are we going to then say that we're going to allow and we're going to be okay with our public spaces being the places where people um have encampments or if we do this then no we don't have to do that you know where I'm coming from Matt can you help me am I unclear he's next anyways I'm trying to say it in a non-frank way I thought you were just Frank yeah let's hear from Matt and then from Aaron and then staff I'd love to give you a chance to reflect on what you've heard and see if you have any questions for Council or any sort of ideas of your own based on their thoughts for one I'm I'm really liking this

[144:01] conversation um it's humbling to sort of be faced with the challenges we're faced with but I also feel really confident that given the oxygen and if we commit the time this group will will get we'll grab this bull by the horns I think in a lot of ways and get to some better places than we are now but it is all based on we gotta give it the time we've got to give it the time where we can flush through it allow staff to chew on it so so I think this is a great first step in for us doing that I just hope that we can all commit to carrying on this conversation not a year from now but at a much greater regular Cadence that we can actually make some of these changes so I just love hearing what what my colleagues are saying and as I've heard that there's there's a couple things that that touch on in terms of and I think it was like well what are we what are we focusing on there's this whole gamut from are we dealing with the acute issue of encampments all the way are we trying to fundamentally solve homelessness I mean the gamut is

[145:01] gigantic and I think we have to step back a little bit and realize this is where the system is kind of failing because here is a city having to think about the entire Spectrum whereas that's where the breakdown is from federal and state and county Support to handle those different levels of granularity and that's just not happening so we're at sort of the Forefront of that so two things jump out immediately for me again which are sort of like what do we come out of tonight on I think we can have these greater conversations but tonight is this immediate tension with encampments to me that's the most acute thing um though I'm not running for re-election but those that are homelessness will be the most dominant issue on the uh this year's election Bar None just look at the Denver Mayor's race and you you don't have to look any further so what are we doing on the acute issue yes we want to solve homelessness but the acute issue facing most people when you

[146:00] talk to them about what's going on with their own house situation is the encampments and what we're trying to do whether that being creating safe environments for causeways on bikes and safety around schools to what are we doing to actually support folks so that when they do get met with our cleanup teams we they where can I go and we have a suite of options for people to go to if different barriers of Entry so that we have a welcoming place where they can have a safe environment to be so that to me is the tension that we have to get to and they're not mutually exclusive purely enforcing does not mean we foreclose Creator support and vice versa so I think we can do both and I think that's the most immediate thing that we need to be tackling to be frank to steal your frankness the second one has to do with the prep for the county I I I'm I'm largely I look for a stronger I'm appalled at with the exception of maybe Longmont our sister cities are doing effectively nothing I mean you just go to Louisville Lafayette websites I think you I mean

[147:00] you literally go to the Louisville website I'm not to try to bash our sister city here but you go you literally search homelessness and two things come up and they have nothing to do with homelessness it's just the word randomly inserted into two articles and then you look at another one that just lists all the other shelters in the region I mean there's just no cohesive strategy with just our just our cities right there so to me the the real rubber meets the road when we walk into that county commissioner meeting and we demand not ask demand that they start to create accountability and there's the carrot and then there's the stick and the County's the only one that can offer the stick for those other communities to step up because for us the challenge is we cannot house and and bring and and take care of everybody but if everybody's sharing in it then if we are in a situation where people are hey we're we realize it's a bad weather night we're going around checking in with folks hey where can I be well you can't be out camping but you can be here here well I don't have any room with these places but you know what because we're all connected I know that there's three spots over in Louisville and we can get you on a bus there and you're

[148:01] going to be and you're gonna have a safe secure night on it when it's cold that is the demand I think we need to make because we cannot solve it from encampment to ending the crisis of homelessness in this community and those to me are the two things out of tonight that I'm maybe most interested in getting at is what is our strategy with the Commissioners and and what is our plan of attack on encampments very specifically because I think we got to move and maybe to Nicole's Point like let's go like what are those lift easy lift up things that we can start with and if we have a consultant maybe they're thinking medium long term but we're not letting um those things get in the way of the immediacy of the impacts that are in front of us thanks Matt um I want to hear from Aaron and then do you want to hear from staff before you all jump in and Bob's like no I don't want to hear from Stafford okay yeah yep Judy has a colloquy and then I have a time check question before we know what's next go ahead Judy thank you

[149:00] I appreciate the comment made by Matt because I've heard it's so interesting when you are we sit where we are and we look at the people in Louisville and Superior uh the leaders over there and we're saying they're not doing enough and we want them to do more and I've been in on in rooms and in conversations where I've heard Boulders creating the housing problems for us so they think we're creating the problem for them for their community and we're also looking to them and I was just thinking again um Lauren you're part of the Consortium of cities how can you um tap into that to help us and be part of that conversation as well to say hey we do have you know housing issues that we are confronting as a city how can we bring all these Regional stakeholders the same thing that Rachel did with the you know um gun control gun violence prevention can we do something similar to bring all these stakeholders into the

[150:00] room to to be part of that conversation because you looking at them and being you know being passionate from here is not solving the problem and them having their own perspective thinking that we are the problem is not helping either so how do we all come together to the table and find Solutions in that way thank you and then really Aaron's going to go next foreign so we have been having conversations around this and the Consortium I mean housing is the top of everyone's mind and I guess one thing I just want to bring up is that it the challenges and the solutions look different for different communities right so there are a lot of communities um that are working really hard to build tremendous amounts of housing you know and we see this in surrounding communities that they're growing really fast and that they are providing how you know market rate housing at costs that Boulder simply cannot and so they see that as a big

[151:01] part of what they are doing you know to help alleviate housing issues and so you know yes they might not be solving homelessness in the way that we want them to be but we all sort of have different advantages and disadvantages and can Target you know different areas of this crisis differently before we hear from other folks when do you all think this meeting is ending because on the Jazz 8 but my calendar invitation went to nine so I'm not sure if we have technically five minutes or technically an hour and five minutes I'm agnostic on the point but just want to know what you thought okay fantastic or or maybe 8 30. I mean we don't have to gosh I don't want to I don't want to panic I just want to make sure that that we're cool that we're gonna carry on for a little bit I'd like to hear from Aaron and then from Bob and then Nicole and Tara if you have stuff and then I really would encourage you to take a minute and

[152:00] hear from and then Rachel no okay I want to hear your chip staff take a five minute break yeah great all these so many apples are big you're healthy people with the Apple eating all right let's do Bob or Aaron and then Bob and then break and then any council members that need to say a thing before we hear from staff I'll hear from you then we'll hear from staff then we'll do counsel and see where we are cool yeah cool all right Aaron you're so patient go yeah well it just uh I would I would just to Lord's point and and Jenny's I don't I don't think we need to be oppositional with our neighboring stage no offense Matt but the IDE they're they're working hard on a lot of things including some uh big affordable housing projects over in Lafayette in particular and Louisville's work on some of that stuff too but I think but the energy to bring to the county I think is extremely important because the you know the county is the recipient of most of the housing and Human Services the Human Services funding in particular for our area and they're responsible for the entire County including some of those

[153:01] smaller cities and and they have a lot of resources and so I I really think we need to bring that that energy for for working with them and getting more assistance with some of these Solutions I think it'll be important part of that discussion with our County Commissioners was that Matt all this other stuff you were saying I thought was right on target I think you summarized those issues really well um and then so just one thing I wanted to throw out about in terms of resources Nicole you mentioned about the federal funding is is most of it's been Focus towards housing first we do have a new funding stream coming online later this year which is the amendment 123 that the voters passed in November and it has funding devoted specifically to homelessness Solutions and I think they're still they're still developing those rules I was on a call with some of the the people implementing that at the state with the Metro mayor's caucus a few days ago but they're eager to get that that money out into our communities and so I know we're really good at tapping grant funding opportunities but while I'm not sure that they would go as far as funding a safe outdoor space with

[154:02] with tents they may well be able to fund things like modular housing you know it's a quick easy to stand up housing and I don't think they're also funding studies so we actually might be able to get funding for for consultant work and such from them as well so there there's some opportunities there to help us move move the needle more on these these enormous problems we experience locally two two broad characters one I had a list of things which we're not going to get to tonight which I'm just fine with it which related to Camping ban enforcement and obviously that's another side of that coin and I know Myers is here and Joe's here and they can talk about that if they if they'd like to um other than I want to make sure that at some point in time maybe it's not April 13th but it may be at some point in time before the end of the year we do have some discussions around enforcement because we have some um pretty large groups in the community who have some

[155:00] pretty big issues one of them I think is looking to pull about measure so we can't ignore that um we have the city manager's three-day rule we have a lot of people who are not happy with that we have a lot of people who are not happy with um the underpasses we have a big group that's pushing us on that and so I think we can have lengthy discussions about sanctioning campgrounds and maybe that'll solve some of these problems that maybe it won't but um I think at some point in time we do have to have a discussion around enforcement and cleanups so I'm just going to leave it at that because I know that the topic du jour seems to be sanctioned campgrounds which maybe make that problem go away but probably it won't um so I did the second thing I wanted to say is first of all I do support on the idea of a of a an expert we have some experts right here but I know that they always value the opinion of of of those who have um expertise outside of Boulder Colorado especially people who as as um as Tara said people who um have seen this day in and day out who've worked with other cities who've seen what works and what doesn't and I

[156:01] think it's easy for us to um get in a car and go down to Denver and say wow it's really cool down here we should just do what they did but there's lots of other cities where this has not worked and I think we need to look at both successes and failures and figure out what's right for us we have expertise in this town but there's also expertise that exist in other towns lots and lots and lots of cities have tried what's being talked about tonight and lots and lots of cities don't do this anymore and there's probably a really really good reason why they don't do this anymore and um the U.S interagency Council on homelessness which is the federal agency that kind of manages all this stuff issued a white paper not long ago they talked about four issues um related things Campground that I would hope that our expert would bring to the table and have us help us go through I also mentioned them very very quickly we don't have to get into them tonight one is Optics versus reality which is do these things really decrease the problems that we're trying to solve which is reducing homelessness reducing

[157:01] camping the reducing impacting community and so they um the U.S interagency Council strongly suggests that we look very very closely in what works and what doesn't because it's a feel-good measure it may be a do-good measure or it may not be a good measure and so they really emphasize that number two um the U.S interagency Council does want cities to focus on the costs of these things because we have a finite amount of money and all the things we talked about tonight are very very expensive focusing just on Camp campgrounds which is the probably the cheapest thing we could do a couple numbers Portland estimates that their cost per camper is going to be thirty six thousand dollars per person per year Los Angeles is doing it Thirty one thousand dollars per person per year I think our staff actually brought us an estimate about a year and a half ago twenty four thousand dollars per person per year those numbers all are in the zip code of what it costs to rent an apartment actually a little bit higher and so we have to ask

[158:00] ourselves is putting somebody in a tent in a parking lot um number one Humane and number two the most cost effective use of millions of dollars of our money again an expert can tell us that but I think that's a factor third the U.S Council talks about um the conditions around sanctioned campgrounds um shelter homeless shelters bricks and mortar homeless shelters have rules like prohibitions on violence theft drug dealing and presumably a campground would have to have the same set of rules otherwise you just have Mad Max right um and um we have to ask ourselves and again an expert can help us with this would we have a sanctioned Campground that would have rules similar to what a bricks and mortar shelter has if not what are the conditions going to be if yes um are there people who don't go to the shelter because they don't like those rules and why would they go to a place without walls that has very very similar rules and then finally what's our exit

[159:00] strategy is this are we going to set up a sanctioned Campground and have that be there for one year two years 10 years 20 years forever because some cities have found that once you set these things up they're very very difficult to take them down because people depend on on that as a matter of fact um Oakland um had one and it took a fire that hurt a lot of people for them to close it down Ontario California set one up for 20 people 400 people showed up and so they get back does that goes back to the point I raised before about for whom they finally had to start doing some some filtering and some qualifications on who actually got to live there so how big is it going to be how much is it going to cost what's our exit strategy and who are we helping those are all answers I think an expert can help us address but these are people who have thought about this for years and years and years we're we we shouldn't make this stuff up right here right now today or on April 13th because there are people that are smarter than everybody in this room who know about this stuff and I want to make sure we rely on them

[160:00] thanks Bob all right lovelies it is 805. now Aaron you don't generally give them very long breaks five minutes 10 minutes 10 10 sounds good see I was trying that I was trying to channel you a little bit and be a little boss here all right come back at a quarter after and then love to hear from any additional council members that need to say a thing and then I really want to give you a chance to hear staff's Reflections and questions for you go

[172:51] Colin Tara do you want to say anything before I go to staff okay fantastic I will allow you to wait

[173:01] um so staff you've heard a lot of ideas a lot of questions um Kurt maybe come to you first uh thoughts Reflections or questions for counsel sir question um so first of all I um I I really appreciate this conversation I'm glad we could have it at the retreat and this is one of those rare moments when I um and pretty much agreeing with everyone that everything that everyone is saying um however no um so um uh I just want to bring us back a little bit as well if that's okay um so the the the strategy it was put in place when when uh when Aaron was here

[174:01] um and Bob was here um and um I've mentioned this before but our our goal in that first year was to house 20 individuals um I think we house 29 in that in that first year if I recall this past year um uh on average 20 individuals have exited homelessness in the city of Boulder every month um also at the time if we look back when that strategy was in place we the city had just opened Lee Hill it was it was a big effort there was a lot of community I'll say community engagement um around that around that development um and um it was a big step for the community and when we look back on that um that project and it's a it's a it's a

[175:00] partnership between the bowler shelter and um BHP um and you know there was a report written a couple years ago looking at the number of police calls um before they got housed and after that I got house and it's like you know going from like a thousand or several thousand with all of them combined to almost nothing except for like medical calls so it was phenomenally successful the whole Community knew about it some people who are involved than others um and now now we come to today um and I I wanted to reflect on one comment that Rachel started with this tonight she said over and over again are we going to keep doing the same things over and over again my answer is I hope so um because we're doing a lot of successful things and I think one of the things we're we're not doing well is

[176:01] we're not celebrating um if you look at an individual who is experiencing homelessness this the impact on their life from from exiting homelessness and being having their life open to other opportunities is amazing and that's our goal that was the goal from with the strategy at the very beginning it wasn't to um and encampments it wasn't to end camping it was to solve homelessness for individuals um so last month there was a a bigger development that broke ground the bluebird development it's kind of I called the Lee Hill too um I'm not even sure if the camera did an article on it there was no Community engagement or there's no Community feedback we weren't getting like emails I think there was two or three council members that were there at the groundbreaking

[177:05] um yeah I do okay well you don't have to confess no no that's the point but um and um you know if you go to the another celebration that I think we miss is a bridge house you know when they have their graduation each year we see people graduating from this program it's phenomenal um and we've missed um the opportunity to celebrate the good work that a lot of organizations are doing I'll also take the opportunity to plug as the community and I hope a lot of people are listening right now we need to support our non-profit organizations the work that they're doing is a lot more expensive to do than it was two years ago or four years ago and they need resources and I um we've uh I think one of the one of the downfalls of our homeless strategy is

[178:01] people have relied on the city to fix everything and we need to rely more on our community as well um so the other thing just as a data point and I think part of our problem is scale so if we look at self-reported data we know that when we since we started that strategy over 7 000 Unique Individuals have come through Boulder and have gone through coordinated entry our numbers are up um about I think six or seven percent from last year um but it's a it's a big number um and so as we're talking about um exploring um a sanctioned camp and camps camping site um I think staff is um certainly um supportive of looking at that um but it's 25 or 50 people or something

[179:01] like that a year out of let's see last year what was it I had my numbers here 11 1108 individuals that came through coordinate entry last year um I do think that I've I'm certainly proud to work for a city that has these conversations and is committed to having the biggest breadth of services that we can um so despite all that that success most of us don't feel good when we wake up in the morning thinking about these issues because they're they're uh they're bigger than our community they're impacting our community significantly um some of the things we can have an impact on some maybe we can't at least directly you know our state hospital half the beds are empty because they can't staff the hospital um we have individuals that have been waiting for months to get into the state

[180:01] hospital who are in our community right now and they can't get the services that they need um that's having a real um that's really stressing um our our system and um there's a lot of things that we can't control and there's other things we can't fix I think as a city we really need to Advocate at the state level and at the federal level to fix some of these things um so I'm also encouraged about the you know the conversations around at least what what can we do locally around Behavioral Health I think we are spending probably about two million dollars on two million dollars a year on prevention um and we can talk about that as a family homelessness discussion as well um the the other thing that I think we need to celebrate um is the the fact that there's a lot more coordination on the work there's coordination within the teams in the in

[181:00] the city but also the organizations as well our high utilizer initiative which is which was maris's brainchild has been really good but really tough um we're diving into the individuals trying to solve some of the individual challenges that people are having and we don't neces we don't really have the infrastructure often to solve those um so it's it's uh rewarding that the operations team is making progress um but you know but it's also daunting to think of the things that we need to change the as we look forward at sanctioned camping or other options it's my belief that it's going to have very little impact on camping in our city and I think that's something that we're all concerned about doesn't mean we

[182:01] shouldn't do it though because we do want to have a number of options and I and I understand that some individuals actually feel more comfortable staying in a tent-like setting for various reasons for various legitimate reasons um then then staying in a shelter um so we need to have lots of options um but I also think we need to answer as a community and as Council some of the questions that Mark Wallach put out um and and that Bob has put out as well and I I so appreciate that we're having this conversation tonight and I hope it can lead to other things um this year as far as capacity um to look at this I'm not sure that I can respond to that right now I think maybe in two or three months um we'll we'll have a better idea of that now that we couldn't get started on something but um

[183:00] we need to see how things go with the opening up the the day Services Center and um uh we you know we don't know how big of a lift that's going to be hopefully it will go smoothly but that will be a bit of work and as as that gets going and get some momentum we may be able to look at other things I fully support bringing in an expert um and um the the sort of one of the last things I'll note is we often get emails and you get emails from hey this city did that and you know they're pretty awesome why can't we do that if you dive in and look at their numbers there's hardly a city around anywhere who's having the results that we're having per capita or the size of our community so we need to be proud of that as well um doesn't mean we need to stop stop working incredibly hard on this issue though um and uh I don't think any of us want to

[184:00] spend any more money on cleanups it's the last thing we want to spend our money on but it's kind of the reality of the world that we're living in right now it's a challenge um let's see I think that might be all that I had oh I wanted to mention two other things um so two of the I mentioned last night that we had written several grants so one uh two of them specifically really related to homelessness um we Vicki and Megan wrote a grant for 2.7 million to assist with the infrastructure and opening of a day service center we've also written a proposal for 3.1 million for respite services which I mentioned last night which is it is a big need in our community of individuals that don't have a place to stay and have medical or light medical needs and we've had

[185:02] conversations with Boulder Community Health around this and with Clinica and um we we hope that this grant will be successful um there are our holes in our system as there are in all systems and we hope to continue to evolve our programs to address those um Okay so the floor is yours Megan no I would I mean I just I really do appreciate this conversation like Tara says I nod my head and agree with everything you're saying because I absolutely do agree with everything you all are saying like these gaps they happen everywhere into juny's Point like we go and look at the sanctioned camping but then we also see all the other camping that's happening in in Denver so these Solutions are are not easy I don't think anybody well I know nobody has solved it but I would agree with Kurt on the more options we have for folks

[186:01] um the more successful we will be like again I don't know that it solves the emails that I see on a very regular basis but it does I think it can only help the situation again I'm sorry can you introduce yourself oh sorry my name is Megan Newton I'm the policy advisor on homelessness for HHS um want to see Joe if you have anything that you want to share and then Maris if you have anything that you want to share you do he'll go first and then you'll go last and then we'll go to council cool I can see the list that's a lot of a lot of pressure uh so I'm uh Joe teddyucci again I'm the director of utilities I manage the team that does the public spaces cleanup work in utilities I would like to speak to one of the things that Kurt mentioned um and last night Nuria talked about we had an all-day workshop with our team

[187:00] and one of the things that that I've heard more lately from the people who have been out on the street doing the work for a few years and have experience with it is that they they're very candid with us and they say that you know you can you can have all of these Solutions but there probably are right now one person estimated 50 people who if you have a sanction Campground or something like that and and all these different options they're still going to want to camp just the way they are now so I I don't want to say that to dissuade anybody from pursuing those options but just managing expectations and and I have um these people are really experienced and and I I trust their opinions on it and then just a suggestion hearing your discussion tonight last night when I gave an update on the

[188:02] samps program I mentioned we have this written abatement protocol document we have some very specific things in mind that we're working on to refine our procedures and to give our team that's doing the work the clarity that they need to be able to address some of the things and I know there there is a a group of community members who is is interested in the space around the schools there's discussion about the 72 hours and the and the bike underpasses and like I mentioned last night I feel like we're at a place with our work where we see that too and we have some very specific ideas of how to address that so to to make the lift that you all have at least immediately hear easier my suggestion would be let us work on that and let us update our our procedures and and when we come back to you in April

[189:00] with an update we can present that to you hopefully we'll already be trying some things and um so that would be that would be an approach at some point if you if you have if we have an answer to where is the other place that the people that we're doing the cleanups work and they go there's also going to have to be a real conversation around enforcement the work we've been doing with the cleanup crew to date has really um I'm proud of the way that they do it compassionately and respectfully and they they really rely heavily on voluntary compliance and and there's reluctance from the team to push past that and I think in our document we do have to address what the options are if things escalate and I think we really need the community support and the council support for that when we get to that place so that is

[190:00] some of the stuff that we can um that we're working on and just a suggestion to to have us come back in April and talk to you about that thanks Joe Mayers well listen for the first time in three years I agree with everything that you're saying on this issue I mean I really do it is a complex issue and the police are just the enforcement arm and we try to prevent as much as possible but we're just the enforcement arm and so the only thing that I want Council to know is that the city manager the City attorney and the directors are committed to fine alignment in the work so you know the front end of the criminal justice system is working in tandem with what the police are doing the back end of the criminal justice system are

[191:00] working whatever we decide that is I I really believe that all of those have to be in alignment for this to work and there is a tremendous amount of community um frustration and fear that I hear pretty much numerous times a day to my office but I I do believe in these people they're very kind they're very compassionate and I think that with the city manager's assistance we can all get in alignment and continue to do good work that's all I have uh yeah and first of all uh Maris I just want to give you more credit because you are not just enforcement your hot team is amazing out there and they do so much Outreach so much now sort of helping people get to where they need and they do so so compassionately and I

[192:01] just you are part of that process of Outreach and I just want to lift that up because a lot of times we just think of um sort of the traditional mode of law enforcement and I know that your team is so thoughtful about it and what strikes me in this conversation and again glad to have it and I know that it's not ending here right like this is a deep conversation that needed to happen particularly with this Council body staff has been needing more and more Direction because we are seeing the difficulty in what we're doing it's to me a conversation about gaps and opportunities and where are we going to tackle what will yield us the best results there is no Silver Bullet there is no one solution singular solution if not cities would have done that and we could have modeled that and copied that and done something different the reality is that we're dressing individuals we're talking about people we're talking about individuals that have different reasons for how they fell

[193:00] into homelessness that have different needs to come out of homelessness and while the city has done a really good job I think over the years of sort of doing prevention and attacking the inflow and also thinking about how to get to housing first strategies all across the nation we have seen this growth of what is happening in this emergency crisis middle and that is what we're experiencing here and the great news is that I think we're we're all ready we're at a place where we really want to tackle it together I know that the team is is ready to think about different types of solutions you all urge us to do that so that is helpful as we think about it and as we continue down this path um I appreciate that it has not been a singular solution that has been brought forward but rather let's really look at what our community needs there are different opportunities there are a breadth of different options out there and coming back uh and and Tara I am

[194:02] with you I'm a practical woman coming back with practical solutions that say let's really get to the nitty-gritty of how many folks are we helping to serve what is the cost what does that look like what is the strategy because frankly providing tents or providing even housing without the supports that's needed to keep people in housing is actually not helping at all so there's a whole Continuum of what we need to do here and I'm just incredibly proud despite the gaps that we have despite the frustration that I know Community is feeling I am incredibly proud of this team that is really coalescing around how to do that and working in partnership with where you'd like us to go but there are some policy considerations that we need your clear guidance and clear Direction about where we need to go in the future and I don't think we're here tonight I don't know that we'll be there on April 13th but I think that this all feeds

[195:02] into making sure we have common language common understanding common um a common vision of where we'd like to go because it's then that we can say all right how do we get there how do we get from A to Z because it will not be b um so I just appreciate it and and appreciate the thoughtfulness by which you've brought the topic up and um the consideration you have given to staffs expertise as well as we have talked about this thanks Miriam so Council love to hear from each one of you if you are inclined to say any final thoughts you have on this topic you are of course free to pass if you've said your piece and then uh if you could include if you have any specific answers to I think one of the questions that that Matt posed which is hey as we're going into this conversation with the county anyone want to suggest an approach or have a thought there um and so I'll I'll just go down the line and you can pass or not and then I want to sort of uh Circle up on a plus

[196:03] Delta on retreat planning and Retreat having and get you out of here and back to your people Rachel would you like to go first sure um first I'd like to say I um I love it when we have no Roberts rules like tonight and like earlier Juni was like hey Lauren can you do blah blah blah and it's just so refreshing and I don't know if there are ways that we can do this more often like during meetings like it can we suspend the rules and just Talk Amongst ourselves because I think we get a lot farther um doing this sorry mayor and and I want to thank you all for just agreeing to have this conversation which is uh at least three years overdue so thank you um for going along with it um wanted to just touch on a couple things that I heard and clarify my understanding um one thing like um it was mentioned that some other cities are building a lot of affordable housing we are too like that to Kurt's point I don't want to diminish our credit on on um I think being out front on that

[197:01] um and and so appreciate the work that you do and agree with you that we want to do those pieces over and over and over and I think the piece that I'm talking about or that are just the the people aren't getting the housing yet so it's kind of two different buckets and and you all do amazing work um and and never trying to diminish that um we keep hearing that like doing a sanctioned encampment is not going to help with unsanctioned camping and I I hear Tara's point that like you you would only like to do sanction if if it's going to be no unsanctioned and and certainly that would be a hope and goal of mine is that by providing you know a we will have less of B and and I don't know why we couldn't um either build a system that way or or at least try for that that it is better for people to be um in housing or at least a tent and not um in a a creek that's near a creek that's prone to

[198:00] flooding or um you know in parks and things like that so I I I'm a little bit leery of the negativity friend of questioning that you know we we do um we do make the rules so I think we can we can try and um set them up to succeed the best that we can and I understand Bob's concerned about like we can't carry the whole world on our shoulders you know I don't think we're we have to deal with that question quite yet because we we're not carrying it on our shoulders with with uh sanction and camping yet um and and hopefully we can build in a process that does address the concerns that you and Mark and I think Tara all had and we'll note Denver has a good waiting list for their sites they've got 50 uh tents at most sites and they get like two cycles of people through the tents each year and there's like four sites I think so um you know we don't have to shoot for 25 we can it sounds like 50 is a pretty good number there um to Joe's point about uh uh

[199:00] 72-hour notice possibly going away um and and the Ripple effects of that I I assume that some of that would be a corollary of um you can't be here we're not going to give you 72 hours but over here you can be for a month or whatever it's going to be so that there is a um you know a loss in one spot but a Improvement somewhere else and and it seems to me that that it's okay for us as a city to have some boundaries and expectations um for for people in public spaces and I think that's you know part of what we hear so much from the community is like we it seems like uh there are no no boundaries and and I think that that um you know we societies do have rules and boundaries and that's okay for us to to have that expectation and to enforce it so um I just want to say thanks again for the conversation I think we're going to move in a good direction and on um on

[200:00] the county stuff I I I just think as part of that conversation I want some of this to be separated out and and part of my concern you know all along has been like um we don't have control over the shelter we don't have control over the um HSBC guidelines and rules really so a lot of This falls to the city and I would like us to have our own um say in some of the stuff that's happening in the city that's a little bit separate and so I just want to make sure that we are doing that part and then I think we probably need some marching orders leaving this conversation or like some some direct guidance to the um staff I guess and I think Nuria kind of asked that so I would suggest um that we maybe give a whatever the legal mechanism is for we would maybe like I think I heard consensus on an expert and I think I heard a lot of interest in sanction or safe outdoor space so I don't know how you know if those if one follows the other if we want to say like maybe we can kind of be pre-planning for

[201:01] the SOS and moving forward with the expert but that would be my my thought thank you all thanks Rachel Bob yeah I'll just focus on process because there's a lot of substance tonight and we're going to do a lot more substance on April 13th and and for many many means after that suspect but I am a little bit concerned about this whole meeting with the county thing and how that's going to work out because it sounds like April 13th is going to be the first of many of our own internal conversations with our staff I don't know if the expert will be on board then it'll well maybe we'll give more Direction on the expert probably not because of shaking his head that doesn't surprise me um but I are we going to have a conversation just like kind of in front of the County Commissioners that are going to kind of sit there in the audience and go like that's that's weird that's interesting I guess they're all over the place on that uh we'll come back and check with you in six months or I mean because I don't see I don't see that we're ready to have an Engaged conversation first of all I know this kind of Commissioners who don't want to

[202:00] talk exclusively about homelessness and as of three days ago they were still there so maybe you have more information about that than I do but regardless of whether they're willing to sit through a meeting with us that only on homelessness it would just be that just be sitting through a meeting with us only on homelessness and if if all we want to do is is have a conversation in front of them um that's fine if we have a conversation with them then I'm not sure what what what our ask is what our tell is what we're going to say to them how that's going to work it feels to me a little premature I mean if we if we have something we want them to do or we want something that we want them to collaborate with us on I don't think we even have an idea ourselves let alone bringing in a second party so I'm just throwing that out there if if you got some magic solution to this scenario I'd love to hear it because I from a process standpoint I don't I just don't get that part I get what we're gonna do on April 13th and I'm really excited about that so thumbs up on all that but I just don't know how the County Commissioners coming into this

[203:01] so I'll say that it depends right um originally there had been an ask from Council to see if we can have a conversation with our County Commissioners just to talk generally about homelessness our County Commissioner said sure we'd love to we'd also love to have the opportunity to talk to you all about a variety of other subjects we knew that this topic is deep and that it would take some time and so we embarked on continue to try to schedule that and scheduling with everyone is difficult right as the conversation has continued and deepened and we know your interest in IT staff set a date for April 13th for at least staff to talk about what are our homelessness strategies we'd also heard that from you as well that there was an opportunity and there was a desire to call the question about what are we doing really and this Council body hasn't weighed in on it right so we move that forward the county has um at least to my knowledge so said hey

[204:02] if you're having that meeting we would come in we would love to break bread frankly with you we'd love to have a conversation about that obviously we want to limit they would like to limit their conversation to what is happening generally on homelessness and the partnership that we have together and would not and and I think that's a reasonable position for them they wouldn't wade into issues that are really solely the city's issues to deal with but certainly we share a lot of um strategy a lot of vision we are part of this Longmont Boulder County Boulder Consortium and there is a desire to say hey let's talk about that and then have that conversation amongst yourselves do we still think that's the right thing to do is that what are you thinking about I don't know encampments or safe parking or what what is coming across the county so those are the kind of conversations and that level of framing that we are thinking about

[205:01] if counseling it sounds like Council may have that desire to go deeper and be more pointed about that than happy to share that as we're preparing for that meeting so that we can all come prepared to have a different kind of conversation but frankly I also think that this is the first of potentially many um and it could be uh where are we laying the foundation where are we and sharing what that vision is because even as we sit here amongst yourselves there may be some commonality on some things and not commonality on other things and so I to your point Bob I I don't know yet if you are at a common point of having a a strategy's agenda setting but you are at a point where there are things that are on your mind that you want to talk to the county with and I would suggest if they're willing to come that day that this is a great first conversation to have with them I don't know if that helps you

[206:00] you know it's funny when you said there are some things you agree on and some things you don't they all agreed with that like every head was like yeah that's true Lauren do you have anything to add um thank you for that framing Maria I am personally I would like to hear from the county if there are areas you know we've discussed sort of expanding services and filling gaps in various ways and are there any places where they would come to the table and support that or you know just feeling them out on that is something that's interesting to me as well as again this the shelter and just sort of what services are offered there what hurdles there are how we can make sure that that is Best Supporting the needs of our community um I did just want to bring up Nicole's Point again about I thought she had a good one about bringing in the consultant I

[207:02] while I still support that I also do think that this is you know we are facing life and death issues for people and so we need to still be moving forward with the solutions that we can be you know wow we are also in the process of evaluating gaps and various other things I don't think that those things are mutually exclusive we can do both hopefully foreign Matt um I didn't quite know where this conversation was going to go when we uh when the email was written and you go send no takebacks um wasn't sure um but I'm I'm quite pleased with how everyone came to the table ready to have this conversation so I just want to thank Rachel for partnering on that because I think this is a great uh it's good this is better than I I sort of expected because I had no idea

[208:01] um I tend to a couple things I've heard and I'll Echo what Rachel said so I won't uh go too much but it's clearly consultant I hear is a need and then certainly safe outdoor spaces is there um and and really addressing that tension with enforcement and a spectrum of safe places for our people in need to go and it's not one or the other so I really want to get to a place where we can reconcile some of those differences because that's the tension that our community sees the most so um I I think there's urgency there I I agree with Lauren and and then maybe by proxy also Nicole how the the chain works that we are we this some of these needs are yesterday so I I don't think a hiring consultant pauses our efforts to lift some things up and get the ball rolling and if the consultant says terrible idea

[209:00] I've got a better solution fine and we pivot the one thing that we have to get good at or better at as a bureaucracy is making the pivot and not feeling like we have to think tank our way to a perfect solution so the action of doing is also the action of learning and it's okay to jettison ideas when they don't work but holding ourselves up waiting for that better solution is also not in the cards so I think we can we can do both so I just want to be just grateful to all of you um for the opportunity and I'm looking forward to the next conversations thank you Aaron yeah well first of all um thanks very much Matt and Rachel for bringing this forward has been a really productive conversation I appreciate the chance to have it and Kurt thanks for all that you um reminded us of of the incredibly important and Innovative work that our city is doing with our partners our non-profit Partners our accounting partners and others uh you know as we were listening to last night talking about all the different efforts that are in flight and uh I'm just so impressed

[210:01] right and as I look around at what some other cities are doing where I would say on a per capita basis I think we can stand up to just about anybody and so really really appreciate all that amazing work that you all are doing um so just to the point of the the meeting with the county uh ice what what I would think about bringing to that is is uh talking to them about how we can collaborate on the next phases of our work on this extremely difficult problem of homelessness in our communities and I hope to work with them to have some openness to look at the broad spectrum of needs and potential services that go along with them you know we have as a as a group with them in the Homeless Solutions for Boulder County been very focused on housing and of course housing is the solution to homelessness but we can't house everyone tomorrow so how do we meet people where they are and provide some assistance to them while we're working on getting folks into housing so I I really do like this idea

[211:00] of bringing in an expert to look at our systems and look at the the gaps and look at recommendations and what we could do next and I'd really look to invite the county to go on that Journey with us and and to include uh Longmont as well who's already is a partner but also look to some of our other cities in Boulder County who I know care about these issues as well and potentially we can do some additional Partnerships there too and and then look for the funding streams necessary up together on how we can make this happen and and because I look like Longmont is doing some things that we're not doing and we're doing some things that Longmont isn't doing so how can we collaborate more and tap each other's kind of operational uh capabilities to to you know build more collaboration on these problems so that would be the kind of conversation I'd be looking to have with the county and I feel like that's a productive one um that we could have and hopefully there's an openness to those discussions and it's just the last thing I want to

[212:00] say is just to emphasize the point that's been made several times and Tara included by by you about that we really do need to also be bringing more mental health and substance abuse resources to the table here it's an incredibly large part of the need and the solution I'm really glad we're moving forward with the sober living home I've been defending that via email on a like a three times daily basis recently because I do think it's such an important project but we need to look for more opportunities like that um because we're we're never going to make uh you know we're never going to come to a full solution until we address those issues as well thanks everybody thanks Aaron Tara first I want to give a shout out thank you to the people in the community who might still be listening who have been very patient in talking with me who think differently than I do and have been teaching me a lot of things and making me think of things differently than I have in the past so and also to Lauren who

[213:01] um said to me that we can't really move people without giving them a place to go in fact you've all said that to me haven't you you have we need places for people to go and so when I visualize what I would say to the because we can't say well you can stay here at the creek because we need our public spaces and then half an hour we've all agreed to that so I like what you said Kurt that there's I think it was Carter Joe you're sitting I I don't remember who said it projectally twins there yes and their shoes are different so they're not twins but um there isn't just one thing so which one of you said we have to have a multiple idea like let's say we decide on a small sanction encampment of 25 of it then we decide on the idea that I like modular housing and but we look into both of those as well because you know you know I like modular housing better okay fine that is because I feel like it's more of

[214:00] a for transitional housing it feels closer to being like a home and less like um like a temporary space and I feel it also gets people prepared to want to be in in a home so that's why I like that so if you said to me what would be your ask for the county it would be for land for modular housing and so I could visualize a collaboration because we don't have the resources to do it ourselves with the county or another city or however we decide with their land because we don't have our lands are expensive but then we would help and we would make this modular housing community I could see that being a really good thing and so that's what I want as the county ask the county Nicole I was actually going to be frank the second discussion so I'm going to be frank the

[215:00] second anyway maybe Frank Jr so Frankie there's yeah Frankie there we go it'll be Frankie um so I have a few things and may take me a moment to read through my very written up notes as folks have been talking um you know I think one of the really important things we need to do I heard a lot of folks talking about looking at the effectiveness of new things that we haven't tried yet I would really love for us to think about looking at the things that the effectiveness of things that we have tried I really feel like at some point we need to have a heart-to-heart conversation study session about our camping ban policy it's something that we've spent or allocated about five million dollars to over the last couple of years and I don't know right I'm not this isn't coming from a bleeding heart liberal kind of place which is where I think some folks in the community like to Peg me but it's really coming from a scientist who's you know looked at some of the emerging research about these

[216:01] topics and it's just it's to me it's not really clear that it's something that makes things better and as we are using limited resources are we using it in the most effective places now I think that's that's an important thing um and I'll also say this conversation has left me kind of sad we've been talking about people but not really with people so no one around this table has lived experience of unsheltered homelessness and Boulder um it's a gap in my mind and it doesn't feel good um I think you all know me well enough by now to probably have this representative Ayanna Presley quote memorized but I will say it again one more time for the folks who haven't talked to me that much that the people closest to the pain need to be closest to the power and I think that we have a lot of folks who have experience with livedict homelessness here current and past and until we're having conversations with them I think we're really missing some of the best and the most effective Solutions the cheapest as well just some

[217:02] of the things that are frustrating a lot of folks in our house Community right now folks tend to know what they uh what they and their peers need and I don't mean this in terms of people who you know are really high on meth or anything like that right I mean folks have to kind of be in a good decision-making place to get there but we have a lot of a lot of those folks right um so anyway so I think I think that's that's sort of a really important thing for us to think about as well um I mean I've heard some really great ideas around addressing trash accumulation keeping bike paths clear having porta potties so that people have bathrooms and places to live I'd really like us to see like to see us start including folks who are out there in these Solutions and then I think you know as we think about a consultant how do we make sure that the consultant doesn't just lead to a strategy that's going to collect dust part of part of my concern is that the landscape is changing so fast and with some of the

[218:02] new drugs that are coming out now with the mass meth crisis with fentanyl with some some of what other cities are seeing in terms of drugs being cut with fentanyl I think we've got some really serious issues coming up and what are we going to do if we have a consultant who gives us a strategy that is obsolete in in a year and a half and this I think is another reason it's important to include the folks who are living this experience now in our Solutions because they're the ones who are going to be seeing the changes that are happening and and give us a heads up about some emerging issues and then as far as the county and what we might have a conversation with them about I really think it's important for us to get a handle on what problem we're trying to solve and what it is we want out of that discussion and sorry this is where I had to go to some sticky notes to try to figure out what I was going to say um and you know and I think with this too is it's really thinking about um

[219:02] where where I think we agree is on what the impacts are to the community right I think we all have a good sense of what those impacts are on all kinds of different people in our community and how are we addressing those impacts right how are we addressing the trash the bike paths the people who are are freezing outside because it's so cold some of those things so anyway what I would love to see with the county besides understanding what problem we're trying to solve is having a Roundtable with folks who have lived experience like I think that that would be incredibly valuable to me I think to have us all together and listening to um to folks who are out there and I think experience with providing services and things too could be really helpful um so that's not sure if that's what everybody would like to see but I would love to see that and you know I think for for us as a community we just really need to think about this issue is not going away so what are we going to do the climate crisis economic crisis all of this is kind of driving things to get worse not

[220:01] better um what are we going to do with that and how do we sit in that space where we don't have enough resources to address this all on our own and and what can we do to mitigate impacts thanks Nicole Judy oh you got to me um I don't want to add any more to what I hear from my colleagues about the type of interactions that we want from the county and I'm I'm sure they're also working on these issues as well and maybe they're not doing exactly what we want them to do and maybe they have their own constraints as well so I think bringing them into the room to be part of the conversation as well and and work with them in a way that is constructive and knowing that they have their own constraints as well so um whenever that conversation is brought to fruition I look forward to it and be part of that yeah whatever the solutions that we can find I just don't

[221:00] have anything else I think I could add more than what I've heard tonight thank you thanks Junior um so before we close this one out I just want to double triple quadruple check that you're providing some sense to staff of what you hope they might do which would not really be Direction Sandra um are there any members of council who do not want staff to start thinking about bringing on a consultant to pursue this issue thank you are there any members of council that do not want staff to start exploring some options related to Safe outdoor spaces okay thank you okay [Music] take backs uh-huh okay um uh Kurt a couple things that maybe sound like they might land on your team's plate any thoughts on capacity and such things related to pursuing a consultant

[222:01] and maybe some options for safe outdoor spaces um yeah I I think my answer is going to be similar to what I mentioned earlier um I think we'll have to see how things develop with the the day Center um but certainly you know you've put this as a priority for us so we'll we'll uh hopefully get to it um in the near future but in in April you know we may have an update as you know what our capacity progress is around that as well happy to ask can can I speak to that I mean I think um what the unit is or what people stay in um that's not going to it doesn't preclude us looking at those types of things yeah okay uh noriani last thoughts on this one before we go to close out nope I appreciate the clarity and um and

[223:02] really do appreciate the conversation and Kurt your grace in figuring out how that fits into your work plan because I know you got a lot on your plate are you gonna say anything before I say a thing just second that Kurt really appreciate and and Megan and Vicky like I know you all are super super busy and you're doing all kinds of amazing work thank you for having this conversation with us y'all want to jazz hand that up I really love it when you all do it that makes me feel like we're at a party thank you so much Kurt seriously though man thanks um Council I promised at the beginning that we would missed an HHS team member Elizabeth back there do you know how how many years ago I met Elizabeth Crowe in the state of Kentucky yeah right we have a whole thing uh-huh I think we once sheltered from a tornado on an on an army base once together good times good times um Okay so planning a retreat is no small thing

[224:00] um there are of course all the logistics that staff just Miracles up and makes it fabulous but there's as some of you know more deeply than others fair amount of work uh that the treat committee does and so uh always room for improvement but also always room for celebration so I'd like to ask you each to reflect on the following question um what's something that you really appreciated and enjoyed about this retreat and what's something that you would hope to do differently or just hope to do at next year's retreat appreciating that maybe some of the faces will change but plant some seeds for the future if you would um plus Delta what was what was the thing that you liked and what is the thing that you might suggest as a change or addition next year yep Rachel maybe we go down the line again happy that goes so efficiently I'll turn around but by volunteers but we have two I like what Bob said earlier that the staff presentations yesterday were delightful and informative so that was great um I think that in future years it would

[225:01] be good to give um just better communication about the agenda and opportunity for Council to give input on a like a fully formed agenda before we get together but more importantly just notice to the community a lot of people said to me oh you have a retreat tonight we had not gotten that out well to the community in some way that I guess I get a lot of strange looks from people like a lot of i i a lot of people who pay close attention like uh Bob and I were talking to somebody Tuesday night who who who usually sends a letter in and was like we had no idea that was this week thanks Rachel Bob yeah I already I said what I thought was really great about last night so I'm not going to repeat that um I think um what we've done in most if on all the Retreats that I've been involved in is we've had two or three touch ends with counsel and when I say with Council I mean at council meeting not just like somebody picks up the phone call somebody and I thought those are really really helpful because we um as a matter of fact I think you've actually even

[226:00] facilitated some of those Heather right so I think I'd like to see us go back to that I think um at least two touch in touch touches you know one in maybe December one in January so that all of council can weigh in on the agenda what it's looking like what some of the exercises you might have us do and so that when we get to the retreat it's kind of a collaborative The Retreat committee can facilitate and they can work with staff they can work with you but I think having the retreat committee check in with Council in a very public way so that we can hear each other and the community can weigh in on what we should be talking about I think it's something we should get back to because I kind of missed that and I kind of think this one ended up being a little bit chunky some of us I think were contacted by the research committee some of us were not we didn't have here regardless whether we were contacted or not we didn't hear each other's conversations and so we ended up kind of in a scramble here at the last few days about what are we going to talk about and so I I think we should get back to um to having maybe at least a couple touch-ins including something maybe facilitated by you in this room on TV with everybody involved

[227:01] thank you Rachel said boards and commissions boarding commissions uh in the past we've also asked words of admissions to weigh in on what they like us I know this is a mid-year Retreat so maybe that's not maybe it's only the star one maybe that's mid-year we could have that debate but we didn't really solicit any input from our boards and commissions at least not formally and um I and I'd like Rachel I ran into a lot of people said you're having a retreat um so we didn't do a very good job of I was I didn't even know until a couple days ago what we were going to talk about and uh there I think there are a lot of people in the community who just didn't know we were having a receipt or what it was going to be about we didn't ask our board's commission so I think we need to kind of get back to a little bit more transparency appreciate that and I think you might have stolen some of Matt's Thunder he was like dang it I was gonna say that but I'll let him have find new Thunder we don't need to go down the line to someone else who's not Lauren wants to go next that's fine but if Lauren you're ready that's also fine Junior's ready thank you I'm not sure I'm gonna be around next year for this but I would say I have been to three Retreats and

[228:03] I'm sure everyone had done a great job who were part of the retreat committee but I really enjoy this one it's it feels it feels quick it feels efficient I like that and I really appreciate that it's like you were thinking of working people right the Thursdays it was on a working day and then even today it's again in the afternoon so I really appreciate the efficiency of it all and I do I don't know what it is but this year it feels more alive the last time I think the coveted and we were mostly on Zoom yeah I feel like and then it's here it feels familiar because we used to have it you know that place over there um and is it North Boulder and I just I just like this it feels good it really feels good I don't feel tired it it yeah

[229:00] it warms my heart so it was great and it's always great to see you Heather so but I'm not sure if there's anything I want to add as for what should happen next year I think you know the next Council will figure it out thank you thanks Jenny next Aaron so my favorite thing is that it's about is that it's almost over my next favorite thing is that it didn't involve an 8 A.M start time that is actually untrue but no but my real favorite thing was just last night I thought was amazing the we learned so much and the the collaboration hearing how seeing how tight this team works together was revelatory and really really special and then um one do want to thank um Lorna Nicole for putting the work in to get this organized so I really appreciate that I think it has had a great feel to it thank goodness we're back in person it was so tough in previous years um and then my my one suggestion I'll Echo the boards and commissions I think it's good to hear from them every year so I would really like to get that on our make sure it stays on our every year

[230:00] calendar not just our every two year calendar Matt um Rachel and Bob took uh just about every one of my uh my suggestions so I won't never let them go first in the future no I don't mind saves a little oxygen um so what I I'll start with what I liked um last night I think I think sort of ubiquitously was was the highlight um not just the communication from staff but it was the first time at least on my time in Council that I've actually been in the same room with every director um and that was really that was powerful that was cool in the sense of feeling the family of the city of Boulder and and all the pieces that go into it so I will remember last night for a long time because I with the way our meetings are set up now that may not happen for another year so those will be a very infrequent joy to have so that will that'll that'll stick with me for a long time so um thank you Nuria and the committee for creating that space for for last night

[231:00] because it was pretty special um the only piece I'll add in terms of just you know process was um having a good long runway for us all to feel like we were part of creating this for ourselves and um and and so to me that was the piece that I think was missing is to really feel like we all had a big chip in making sure this was driven in a singular Direction um and also that it was um really focused on on long-term strategy as a midterm Retreat without adding work plan items necessarily we're really thinking about what's on the horizon which Retreats are typically used for um so I'm glad we were able to Pivot to get that nice long breath on homelessness which is kind of the defining issue for us this year going forward so I appreciate the flexibility to do that expect Tara oh fine I want to agree with Junie that I was

[232:02] very thankful that it wasn't during the day during the week because until we get a raise from twelve thousand dollars I have to keep my regular job and it's hard to take off that much time so thanks for doing it during the night I'm sorry we gave up our Friday nights thank you for doing that people and oh the weekend would have been good too but thanks for that um people Lauren was ready and I just want to make sure everyone heard Aaron say the night's still young [Laughter] I really appreciated that we were able to take both a very wide look at what the city is working on and also delve deeply into a couple of items I think that that was a nice balance um and I look forward to being actually officially able to put things on the work plan in our next

[233:02] laughs thanks Lord Nicole asks yeah that's a good one Lauren um I'm just going to Echo everybody else that you know hearing from staff hearing about the other 80 of the work that's going on I think was was really neat um and agree it was just fun to be in community together in a way that we typically don't get to um as far as what to do different I completely agree with folks about kind of you know having more check-ins I think it would be a really good idea to just build this into our regular agendas that you know as the retreat's coming up the three months before at least once a month we're you know we've got 15 minutes or so to check in on that so I think that that would be really helpful I think one of the other things we need to get clear on is when we're doing Retreats and when we're doing mid-term check-ins because the retreat committee was going in with the expectation no new work plan items this is a midterm check-in we're seeing you know where where things are at so I think just

[234:00] having that Clarity for the retreat committees will help in the future and you know and I just want to kind of encourage us this is kind of Beyond this one debrief but just in general as we are noticing that you know we're we're not getting the information we want if there are conversations that you know we want to have that things are lacking just reaching out and asking and saying you know a month or two ago like hey what's what's actually going on you know with the retreat I know we had a conversation but haven't heard anything before then just so that we know when there are things and we don't have to kind of react to them at the last minute which I know creates a lot of work for staff as well as the folks involved so I think just being more proactive about telling each other what we need I think is a really helpful thing that that we can do not just for retreat planning but for everything thanks Nicole Nuria um so I I'll stop and I'll start in the reverse order which I think Clarity on what we want these to be and so I'm new

[235:00] this is my first in-person uh check in with you all as I spoke to staff and I spoke to former council members um this notion of a of a full Retreat is different and the asked boards and commissions was not an annual process all the time it changed over time and so I think the question for me is and and we can take this after a Learning lesson is what does this Council body want to do every year and happy to have that conversation with you all because there are different expectations and there were different things in the past that happened so happy to take that as a learning lesson um but the thing I've really appreciated it and and I I won't always comment on stuff because you've already seen how amazing they are I get to see that all the time and frankly they're funny as hell um but uh being able to be with you all and a little bit of of what Rachel was saying being able to be with you all in a setting that is more conversational that is less about perhaps the order of

[236:03] business less about the larger audiences that we're having it's one of the reasons we said up front we were not streaming and I know that people wanted to see it we will be putting this on as usual it didn't used to be that you even got video and now we will be videotaping forevermore and we will be posting this up but it really is to create an environment that is more intimate that is more casual that is one that you can all speak more frankly in that we can speak more frankly in and I think that was evidence in the last two days and I have really appreciated that so I just thank you for allowing that space to happen as we move forward and just thank Heather for uh the I have come to really appreciate Heather's approach to facilitation and the manner in which she keeps us in line she keeps us moving she keeps it good humored she keeps it update uh up upbeat and have really just enjoyed that thanks Maria

[237:00] uh appreciate that Council I think I say this some version of this every year but I consider it a privilege that you trust me to be with you at these important times in in your journey so thank you once again for letting myself and Samuel um just be a part of this and uh I think is another thing you've heard me say and I say it everywhere the city of Boulder staff is the highest performing organization I work with and I work a lot of places with a lot of people and they all do good work but this group of humans I I don't know more people who do such high quality work and so much of it literally all the time so it brings me great joy to see you get to know them better and to appreciate their work because they're pretty tremendous and um I really enjoy my time with you so thanks for having us Mr Mayor thank you for letting me take over your job for one night delighted to give it back to you for all the future until maybe next year so my only objection to taking over tonight is how bad you make me look because you're so good at this but I

[238:02] think we just need a round of applause for Heather and her extraordinary facilitation work and then so always a pleasure to work with you every year and uh and to Echo what you say about the city organization the city of Boulder there's there is no better highly more highly functional organization to be found and it's a it's an honor and a pleasure to work with you all every day and it's Friday night the night's still young friends before we adjourn before we adjourn can I just give two additional shout outs Alicia and Emily make this uh and do all the dinner so uh apologies for not mentioning that earlier and then behind the scenes there's a whole group of people doing Channel 8 stuff that will then subsequently post this and keep us in microphone Heaven at the moment so thank you to all