January 5, 2023 — City Council Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

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[3:09] thank you Ryan looks like the on air button is ready and we will wait for the mayor's queue all right I'm back in recording now and the mayor can begin whenever ready all right well let's get going uh welcome everyone to the Thursday January 5th 2023 meeting of the Boulder City Council welcome and a Happy New Year to all I'm going before we do our roll call I'm going to turn to council member Benjamin for our lead-in joke of the year yeah it's 2023. um happy New Year everybody why is New York City's New Year's celebration always so overrated every year they drop the ball all right

[4:00] timely very good and on on that note I'll call us to order and ask Alicia to do our roll call thank you sir and Happy 2023 to everyone and thanks for joining us we will start tonight's roll call with council member Benjamin present mayor Brockett president councilmember folkerts present friend here Joseph present spear president mayor Pro tem Wallach here councilmember weiner present and Yates here mayor we have our quorum thanks so much and I'll just note council member Spears joining us remotely to avoid chances of infection so appreciate your thinking of our health there Nicole and then I also turned to Terry you also have a health thing you'd like to talk about yeah I have an announcement no I'm just kidding I had knee surgery about two weeks ago

[5:00] so you're gonna see me walking in and out of this room so I don't sit too long and I apologize ahead of time very good and with that I'm going to ask for a motion to amend the agenda to make three changes one is to Adam add item one a our first item of an update and discussion regarding methamphetamine levels discovered at the main library with uh Boulder County Health president as well to remove item 8A a council discussion on proposed boards and commissions liaison duties which has been moved to the January 12th study session and finally to correct item 4B to correct the address of the utility easement from 3320 28th Street to 3265 30th Street so moved second motion second all in favor raise your hand that's unanimous the agenda has been amended and so we will go right into item 1A which I just described and I'm going to start by uh heading over to Deputy city manager Chris Mess check to

[6:01] get us started please thank you mayor good evening council members uh and I'm just going to do a very brief intro for this item our city manager Nuria Rivera vandermite is on vacation but has joined us for this item remotely so I will turn it over to Nuria who's going to kick it off and then we will have David farnin our library director and then we have two representatives from Boulder County Public Health that are joining us tonight as well so with that Nuria take it away thank you so much Chris can you hear me all right yes I appreciate being able to join you this evening though note I may have to turn my video off it's heavy rains where I am are causing some connectivity issues so I think I'm also just a little blurry I apologize for that it was important for me to be here today it's an important discussion it comes as no surprise to our community that meth continues to be the fastest growing drug and epidemic Nationwide I want to thank council member friend who recently asked

[7:00] if we could schedule a more in-depth conversation about meth and the impacts it's having on our organization and in our community we too believe this is an important conversation and are looking to devote time at an upcoming study session to delve into this topic from various perspectives across the city departments as well as possible Community Partners but for today we wanted to provide you with an update concerning the library over the past months or so we have experienced a troubling number of suspected reports of drug use in the bathrooms at our main library so much so that our library director David farnan will provide you with more detail in just a bit called for testing to determine what exactly we were dealing with those initial test results originally focused on the bathroom areas they came in on Monday December 19th and after consultation with our Public Health Partners as well as the expertise of our facilities and Fleet department and our risk management department and finance we called for the library's closure

[8:01] at that time we did not know the extent of the contamination but I could not in good conscious have staff and the public invited to a public facility where we needed to do more Environmental Testing throughout the building to put together the appropriate remedial plan I want to thank Lexi Nolan Bill Hayes Joe malinowski and any additional Boulder County public health staff who supported us throughout the process many who disrupted their holiday plans and vacations to assist we are so appreciative of the continued partnership and support we've had from you I'll note that we have representation from Boulder County Public Health with us today to answer questions as well but first I'll turn it over to our library director who alongside so many other City staff who worked quickly throughout the holidays as well to address this issue and put together a mitigation and reopening plan for the city I want to thank that that quick work from staff and I'll turn it over to David farnin for additional details David

[9:00] thank you neria um good evening Council thanks for this opportunity to come and tell you what happened my name is David farnan I'm the library director for the city of Boulder I want to open up with just some brief marks about what the library is and what we do typically I will go into some detail with regard to what unfolded over the last four weeks and then describe to you a little bit what the library what the plan for reopening is and what the library is going to look like when we reopen so um the library as you all well know is one of the busiest public facilities in the city of Boulder prior to the pandemic that meant roughly 2 000 visitors a day to the library downtown since the Pandemic those numbers are off but it's well over a thousand visitors a day 99 of those visitors who come to the library every day are using it for its intended purpose and I need to stress that highly the plurality of those daily attendees I Far and Away are dominated by children and families so they make up easily 30 percent of the people who are walking through the door and well over 50 percent of all of my business metrics

[10:01] at this point books checked out programs attended that kind of thing but if you look at the cross section of the people who walk in the door it is literally a cross section of our entire Community they are students they are retirees there are folks who come in to read they are folks who come in to experience Community they are both unhoused and housed the library is free as you know and open to all the barriers to entry are few if none so long as you do not break any law and you adhere to the library's behavioral guidelines you are welcomed you are treated with dignity and you are treated with respect so um I want to open up a little bit here about while while of course there have been intermittent issues of drug use in the library over the course of time we have one documented arrest in 2022 prior to this and one suspected attempt at drug use which was dealt with I did suspend that person for 364 days although I'm not a court of law I am not

[11:01] a law enforcement officer it was a Breaking of our of our behavioral guidelines for disrupting Library service and he was suspended the incidents that began um this year began on November 20 November 23rd on that day we had two documented incidents of smoking in the bathrooms um we closed the the police and the fire department were called um we happened to have a Hazmat um uh investigator who came with the fire department he was unable to detect any chemicals he was unable to detect uh any CO2 to place displacement which means he was unable to even detect that there had been a fire in the space so at that time um the next day we were closed for the holiday um we we discussed at the time the building facilities maintenance manager and I that we didn't know what it was but we suspected narcotics um at that time we reopened after the holidays there was again another incident at that time um again

[12:00] some staff members six staff members three security guards two cleaning mem crew members and one of my front line staff walked into the smoke-filled bathrooms uh two of those staff members reported dizziness I also went into the bathrooms I felt no symptoms we had everyone checked out by paramedics and paramedics as is there um their way with a sense of humor reported that all of the six individuals were much healthier than myself and or the facility's maintenance manager which I thought was humorous but we were still left with scratching our heads because we didn't know what it was going on we developed a protocol at that time right so any incident in which there was fire in the bathrooms we would call we would close the bathrooms we would call the fire department we would give a minimum one hour of time for the smoke and whatever was in the air to be cleaned and then the Dave porters the the cleaning crew the two-day Porters that we have on staff would enter the bathroom with proper PPE and clean all of the surfaces before we would allow

[13:02] the public back into the bathroom so that protocol was implemented at the very beginning it was at the same time that the facilities maintenance manager and I met and expressed both concern that we did not know what we were asking the cleaning crew to go into and it's specifically two people we consulted with the Hazmat person who was there on site um the facilities maintenance manager followed up then with the chief of the chief of the HazMat team for the city of Boulder and realized the HazMat team doesn't do testing for drugs we then chose to pursue a professional opinion um at that time in tandem um I reached out to the city manager's office of my supervisor Chris mestick to talk with him and we agreed that it was best if I would reach out to Chief Harold and deputy chief Redfern I did so at that time they immediately provided assistance to the library and attached me to a Narcotics Division I met with that Sergeant soon after and we began

[14:02] work by bringing in an undercover team of Narcotics detectives into the library to see if they could discern what was going on we began at the very same time to share information with those undercover narcotics office including people who we suspected any suspect activity that we were seeing within the library that we could pick up on on surveillance cameras including in a couple of instances places where we thought a person or persons could possibly be the Nexus of some form of drug transactions going on it turned out that that was not the case they were not transacting drugs and I learned a lot more than I ever thought I would learn about how users use drugs but it's not unlike how a group of um maybe you know in the movies alcoholics would share a bottle of of alcohol drug users typically one person scores than three people score and so they're quite often sharing drugs among each other um the we began in tandem in both ways so with

[15:00] facilities maintenance managed we were pursuing testing with the police department we were pursuing investigations micro security guards continued to monitor activity we had eight uh additional incidents between November 29th or maybe 10 I guess it was 10 incidents between November 29th and December 15th um on December 12th the tester came out to the library we closed the bathrooms for that testing so they could test the air ducts which we were only testing the air ducts at that time they tested the air ducts and then on the 19th of December we received the results of those tests that was myself the facilities maintenance manager the head of risk and the consultant who we had used to do the testing we immediately set out to do a meeting with Boulder County Health and from that point then met with the city manager and involved a lot of other people at which point as Nuria described the decision was made to close the library and do further testing um

[16:03] I want to talk a little bit about what we what it's going to look like when we reopen so um I think one of the things that was for myself I you know I've learned a lot more than I ever thought I would um I've been doing libraries for 30 years I've never had anything like this in all of that time I think one of the things that was probably most concerning to us is we knew we had to meet whatever the state guidelines were so we have cut we are we have a remediation team now on site they have been there since last week they are actively cleaning all different areas we we brought back for the areas that were considered contaminated so the bathrooms all six bathrooms were at levels considered contaminated as was one seating area outside of the bathrooms that one was one that was probably deeply concerning to us because we learned all about dermal transmission so unbeknownst to myself at that time you can transfer meth from one surface to another via

[17:03] your hand you can swipe one surface pick up enough and swipe it on another surface and provide some level of meth contamination which if you take that to its logical conclusion is frightening honestly um that um that led us to the library and what we're going to see when we reopen we have decided to areas that were not necessarily contaminated contaminated but potential areas for contamination in the future we have decided to remove all upholstered furniture from the library that has already been discarded we have looked at every single commonly used piece of equipment that is in the library that is not easily cleaned and also made the decision that we will discard all of those items as well and then we are going through the process of the remediation of the bathrooms the library opened up on what was it two days ago or yesterday for holds pickup um patrons are welcome to come into the library currently and pick up their

[18:00] holds and browse the fiction collection and there's even actually a couple of chairs I saw people sitting in yesterday but when we reopen more fully I hope next week after the remediation of the um the bank at seating area is cleared we'll be fully open to the public and all the cleaning is done the only thing the biggest thing that they're going to notice is there are no public bathrooms we will have no public bathrooms for probably the first three to four weeks as remediation continues in those spaces and Remediation means really tearing out air ducts removing some of the contaminated areas and replacing them with new that will take some time for those bathrooms already readily reconstructed we have no intention at any time of reopening the bathrooms for un monitored access that is going forward and that is going to be one of the things that when I mentioned that we have 2 000 visitors a day I guarantee you that the public bathrooms at the public library are the busiest public bathrooms in the entire city of Boulder

[19:01] we provide a lot of bathrooms we are proud of those areas but we they will be on restricted access going forward if you are a with a child child and or the caregiver of a child under the age of 18 we have children's bathrooms the children's area was in no way contaminated we will be opening those bathrooms to parents and their caregivers beginning next week we're doing a deep clean on them as well and actually cleaning all the air ducts so that will be safe for people to return but you will only be able to do it by after interacting with a staff member or a security guard within the library and getting a key card access to get into those bathrooms and that will be restricted to children under the age of 18 and their caregivers the other bathrooms we expect to open up probably in about three to four weeks one set of bathrooms will be restricted to staff access only so staff a member would have to let a person in if they were having in a medical emergency or had a legitimate medical condition there are a

[20:00] number of medical conditions which we are required by law to provide access to the bathrooms so for instance somebody who has a colostomy bag we have to allow them access to a bathroom in order to empty that bag someone who is legitimately has diabetes we have to let them use the bathroom in order to go to the bathroom and we will do so but the public access public access to the bathroom will be significantly restricted um so um to be clear there is no there was never a time when any illegal activity within the library was tolerated it never has been it never will be we call the police in the event of any sort of crime staff are instructed to call the police if they suspect a crime is being committed if they feel unsafe or if they feel like a situation is out of control our library commission has approved guidelines of behavior which we enforce with security guards and with staff at all of our buildings I feel like those guidelines are mostly adequate to manage ordinary

[21:00] disruptions and to deal with the activities that may disrupt the operations of the library or inhibit our ability to provide safe Public Service they have been effective up until this last event I do believe and the city has assured me that we will have adequate resources to increase the number of security that we have in the building as well as increased level of day Porters to provide for a much more extensive and committed cleaning regimen on a daily basis so I think that's everything I've got I'm more than happy to take questions later but I think I'm going to turn it over to Bob Hayes thanks so much David so Bill if you want to come forward and then we'll have questions after after you've spoken then good evening my name is Joe malinowski I serve as the Boulder County public health environmental health division manager thank you for inviting us to the meeting today I'm sure you're going to have a lot of

[22:01] questions and we're going to try to answer those today we are prepared to really talk about the sampling that was occurred to the library we're more than willing to come back it sounds like there's going to be a meeting in the future more of an executive session where we can invite some toxicologists and really some better experts than we are to really talk in depth and answer your questions probably even better but Bill Hayes should be able to answer most of your technical questions tonight regarding the actual Library contamination I think one thing to keep in mind is that this is not a Boulder County issue this is actually a national issue we just happen to be diligent in Boulder County and and actually you're following regulations and public health guidance to do this testing to keep our citizens safe and that's why we've had this program and the way the state does as well so again happy to answer any questions involving the library and can come back later at another time when we have some more experts so thank you very much great so I'm going to turn to council

[23:00] for questions but Joe if I could just start with one quick one just that uh David described some remediation approaches here are those sufficient to make the facility in the bathroom safe for the public to visit I'm going to let Bill answer that question more specifically but it really what happens after the cleaning they have to do some additional testing to ensure that it's cleaned up properly and that testing usually indicates whether or not the cleaning was successful Bill Hayes I'm the air quality coordinator at Boulder County Public Health as as Joe said Public Health we enforce the state statutes and regulations on meth cleanup we don't prescribe how the cleanup is conducted but as Joe said at the conclusion of any remediation we go back in do testing and it has to be shown to be below the limits and listening to David just now I

[24:00] was very impressed with the steps they have taken I think you know there was a number of situations that you know you could have debated whether it was necessary to take such a step and in every case they took um you know the most conservative approach possible so I am very uh pleased with the remediation work they're doing but as I said you know the proof will be in the follow-up sampling and I would say Quest Environmental who the city hired to do the initial sampling and who will do the post remediation sampling is a very good firm Bob willner who led the sampling effort is one of the top experts on meth sampling in the state he actually he is certified by the state to do that work and he trains others to become certified so you know you've you've got one of the best doing this work it's good to hear so we'll do testing

[25:01] and then only reopen if the tests show that the levels are safe I assume yes yes and and I'm also uh you know impressed with the steps that are being taken to prevent recontamination it's good to hear all right so Council questions for any of our peace Rachel I'll start with a public health question in hopes that maybe bill you can be in the right place already for the answer um but I don't know if it's for Joe but I think there's a lot of community concern about you know if you were in the library at the time of the contamination might you be in any danger so hoping that you can speak to that and I don't know what the dermal transfer is that the right word dermal in the future if if we have um incidents again our our members of the public at risk either from what's happening in the bathroom or from you know if uh if somebody touches something in the bathroom and then out in the stacks or whatever and is the risk any different for adults kids toddlers

[26:02] elderly yep I'll try to remember all the points to tackle there um you know I should start out by saying that working on meth-affected properties is nothing new for Boulder County Public Health we've been doing this for at least seven years but this is the first time we've dealt with a public building and a large space so that's that's the wrinkle and so we've worked very closely with the State Department of Public Health and environment and are even in consultation with CDC um the regulations as they're written and not every state in the U.S even has regulations for meth remediation and when you look at the handful of states that do we're kind of in the middle some have higher levels that trigger remediation some have lower New Zealand who perhaps you know as a country is

[27:00] ahead of us in addressing meth they used to have a level that was three times higher than ours and after years of looking at data they decided that they could raise that limit to tenfold so you know they have a significantly higher limit than what we have in Colorado our Colorado limit was based on essentially a worst case scenario and to your question of who is uh you know perhaps at more risk certainly children are at the highest risk is what we consider and so looking at a worst case scenario it's a residence where either meth has been produced or consumed and meth as David was saying it's sticky and it gets into anything that's porous and so in a house a residence where you have meth contamination it's going to be in the carpeting it's going to be where the children are crawling around touching things putting their hands in their mouth so looking at that worst case

[28:01] scenario the state decided that a protective level would be 0.5 micrograms per 100 square centimeters little wonky I know but so that is what we consider to be a conservative level because it's looking at essentially worst case scenario a scenario where people are you know living exposed long-term exposed most hours of the day so when you take that level and apply it to a public space where people are only there episodically and only a short duration we do feel that you know if we clean up to that level it is very protective of human health Public Health if somebody's there and we haven't cleaned it up yet say you know if this happens again in the future is there a significant risk of of what we saw previously of whatever we tested or and

[29:00] and I think some members of the public are still a bit confused about like were they at risk it my understanding is probably not much but I'm just hoping to clarify that yeah and um the the most common pathway of exposure is inhalation so you know as David was saying had some employees walk into the bathroom where they saw smoke inhaled it felt ill that's that's going to be the highest exposure um you know if you come in contact who at dermal exposure yes it can absorb through the skin and affect you but it's it's a much slower process a much less amount of exposure and you know if you go home wash your hands it's going to take care of it also what and you know I should clarified the reason that we have such a low standard conservative standard in Colorado is that there is not a lot of data we don't have the answers to all of these questions so

[30:00] please keep that in mind you know when I say this but what we have seen in medical literature is that when people are exposed episodically to low levels of meth contamination your body is able to process it excrete it out in your urine within a day or two so you know any health impacts that you might have especially dermally it would likely show up as a rash but if it's a heavier exposure you might have headaches dizziness fatigue but typically those are going to resolve within a day or two after you're removed from the contamination super helpful thank you and thank you for the partnership all along and and to our staff as well for working over the holidays over this on this I've got Nicole on the same topic yeah just a quick colloquy um thank you so much for all this information and my question um is just you know because uh the dosage differs right depending on body

[31:00] size and things like that and so the things you were just talking about in relation to Rachel's question does that also apply to children or you know younger smaller basically bodies is that still is there anything that would be different if we were talking about children even though as I understand it this wasn't the contamination there was no contamination detected in the children's areas yeah we as I said um you know those most at risk of um impacts from exposure are going to be small children and so um when we worked with Quest environmental on the sampling protocol um extra attention was given to the areas that you know the children use and hang out in um to be you know sure that we have those areas properly cleaned um and yes uh you know certainly the same dosage to someone my size versus a little one it's going to impact that smaller one much more

[32:02] Mark and then Ginny thank you for all that information as well um when I looked at the test results um there were three test results three test readings that came in at greater than yes it is it's hard to hear that three test readings came in at greater than 75 I assume it's micrograms per 100 centimeters and I inquired about that and I was told that the tests don't record anything higher than 75 micrograms is that possibly accurate um I I think I think maybe we've got the decimal point in the wrong place okay um as and without having the report in front of you but I think actually the detection limit of the equipment I believe is .013 micrograms per 100 square liter and

[33:03] the vast majority of all the samples taken were below the detection level of the equipment and so there were a handful of samples that came back above the detection limit and above the screening limit of the regulations and that's that's the 0.5 micrograms and um there was only um one of those samples that was outside of the restroom area and that was in the in the great room area but my question is for those couple of readings that were outside of the the limits do we actually know the level of contamination in those areas if it just reads greater than as opposed to a specific number oh I see what you're saying that um yeah the reports are sometimes uh you see that greater than and yeah it leaves you questioning but what it really means is

[34:00] that it it was a non-detect so I think he's asking about the high levels at the highest level yes thank you the very highest levels yeah I'd have to go back and look I don't I don't recall seeing any that um so back up I'm I'm thinking of the sampling that was done after we sampled the air ducts and yes you're right when we sampled the air ducts um there were samples that were above the top end of the equipment and yes 75 is the top end that the equipment can detect and you know at that point you know you have to do remediation and get it under the 0.5 okay so for those readings we don't exactly know how contaminated those Ducks were okay right but we know significantly contaminated and we know we have to remediate and as David said um in in those cases typically in

[35:00] ventilation systems it's very impractical to think you can get in and adequately clean them so it's just removed and replaced okay and and my next question is um and this may not be for you but a comment was made that meth is a national problem which we all recognize um has it been a problem specifically in libraries elsewhere um again as as Joe said at the beginning I think here in Boulder County you know we are addressing this uh more vigorously than a lot of communities but certainly in Portland area California Seattle area yes we've heard of other libraries with similar issues I don't know that you know they've done testing and identified I haven't heard specific levels but just in general you know we hear across the country of libraries you know illicit drug use happening in libraries and this may be a

[36:02] question for either Nuria or or David what's the cost to remediate what is this going to cost us yes uh I might jump in uh on that one and then Joanna Korean our director of facilities and Fleet is here as well um my understanding is currently we've spent about fifty thousand dollars on testing we've also spent about fifty thousand dollars on this initial phase of remediation what will be remaining is the bathrooms which we are in the process of competitively bidding right now um and so those are the the current numbers that we have um Joanna did I get that correct do we have any sense of what the bathrooms are going to look like in terms of cost I'm sorry so I'm Joanna Korean director of facilities in Fleet what was the last part of that I didn't hear Do we have any ballpark estimate of what the bathrooms are going to cost us um in terms of the remediation specifically so

[37:00] um to add on what Christmas Chuck was just saying we're anticipating the re I guess the remediation plus actually putting in uh new ducts and drywall that kind of thing so probably around ultimately it'll be around 125 000 but we are still trying to get more bids and do we have any insurance coverage for that uh no okay this would not be qualifying under our city insurance thank you my question is more likely for David we received some emails and as I was reading some of them community members had some solutions and I hear tonight you mentioned and thank you for all the work that you've been doing but hey from what I'm hearing right now is that we're working on this we have the possible solutions but I

[38:00] haven't heard concretely what you're working on so I'd like to hear some of that because there were some concrete for instance one of the concrete steps that a Community member mentioned to us is that hey are there sensors or detectors that we will put in place in the future so maybe if you can tell us a little bit more about what we will be doing in the future to somehow I'm not sure if you can stop someone from doing these type of illicit drugs but how can we ensure we protect community and what are some of the steps that you're taking I appreciate the question that that is not for me though thank you Judy um I that that's a question for the either City facilities or the city manager's office I don't make determinations about such things but yeah I I can jump in junior it's a great question and um it's something that I know we've got some folks that have been looking at that and there's a potentially a technology out of New Zealand that could be a meth detector so we're going to try and learn more about that and understand but then I think as David talked about as well

[39:01] um looking into once the remediation is complete is there uh is there also a way to ensure that there's monitored access to to the bathrooms in other words is there a way to ensure that maybe there's we're trying to help prevent that behavior from even occurring in the bathroom so those are all operational things that we're looking into thank you so no I'm sorry yeah to that point Jenny then we we there are there are such things believe it or not like there are guards who are trained specifically in the health and medical conditions around primarily for hospitals but also for other kinds of facilities for uh monitoring bathrooms and so we will be looking into getting guards certified in that who can deal with people's various health conditions to determine whether or not to allow them in a case of emergency and also then to regulate the bathrooms we will be looking to those guards to determine how that access will be managed I don't I don't have the answer for it currently like is it one person at a time are we able to handle three people at a time or I don't know the answer if I could just drill in a little bit

[40:00] um while you're up here David so uh I'm hearing that we're looking at potential Technology Solutions so it's good to hear that we're investigating that and but you're talking about it that a primary strategy will be in terms of limiting and monitoring access to the bathrooms that's it right yeah and so you're still developing the exact strategies but the plan is to have security that will help prevent this from happening again is that yeah what we have requested is increased levels of cleaning and increased levels of security so I I've been assured that we will have that and I believe that that's possible solution I mean if you look at what has happened in Union Station my family and I go there every year for the holiday and it's gone through a number of different permutations if you cannot go into a bathroom currently at Union Station without encountering at least one person who is there working and in fact if you actually ask for questions like can I use the family bathroom you will find that you're confronted with someone who wasn't there before within a

[41:00] minute who is actually able to give you access to that bathroom so there are ways that I don't know that ours will need to be that extreme but there are certainly other communities that have figured this process out I don't think it's not it's not cost neutral I mean it's going to require some resources but um yeah I believe we can do it I mean the Union Station is in some ways back and the bathrooms are certainly used and I don't believe abuse but that it requires quite a lot of research do it great that's good to hear because of course I think we all share the goal of having this never happen again right so it's good to hear that that is correct and to answer Mark's question we have been contacted uh since this event by two other libraries in the Front Range who are considering want to do testing so and I I think goes without saying we'll be uh very interested in your plans as you develop them so please do keep us in the loop I had Bob and then Matt and then Rachel David this is for you if you don't mind getting back up David I really appreciate you um giving us um the recent history the things that have happened in November and December and also your plans for the future so

[42:01] that was great I'd like to give you the opportunity to maybe back up in time I think you've been the library director here for about 10 years yeah almost 10. um and so can you talk a little bit about um some of the things that you and your staff have done by way of security um in in the library during the years leading up to this the situation because I I've heard that that there's things you've done with respect to security with respect to prevention of drug use and other inappropriate behaviors and I'd like to hear a little bit more about what you've done through the years with regards to them yeah so the library commission approved of a guidelines um uh some time ago 10 years ago at least their behavioral guidelines and so those behavioral guidelines obviously restrict any illegal activity but um it goes beyond that to um restrict disruptive behavior it just restricts people lying down in the library unless they're under 10 years of age it restricts the presence of any kind of of drugs or possession of drugs or being inhibited by any form of drugs and that includes legal substances we do

[43:01] not allow for if people are presumed to be intoxicated in the library we frequently ask them to leave so that is a common practice that we have been that's been in place for a decade we update those policies with some regularity staff receive quite a lot of training on a lot of different things how to recognize and how to work with various communities we've done everything from I mean extensive training on working with the unhoused community extensive training on de-escalation extensive training on how to work with the mental ill um but I can tell you that I have not had training on and my staff have don't have either is how to deal with the person who is high on methamphetamines that is not something that we have the training for what we do is what you do we call the police and so we don't really have the mechanism for dealing with people who are completely out of their minds on drugs uh the the you know the history has been I've had five security companies in 10 years uh you know some really good some less good um we you know we'd go through the

[44:01] competitive bidding process um you know when I first arrived in 20 uh hired in 2013 and started in Earnest in 2014 um I don't know if any of you remember what Boulder Public Library was like at that time but it certainly wasn't getting a lot of rave reviews we went through a process of of um you know disrupting some untoward behavior in the library and it was pretty severe and I'm not sure that anybody I I know that I was thanked by a lot of people but I'm not sure that we got any good PR for it and I'm not sure that the police department got any good per for it but nevertheless I worked and we went through a long period of time where things were relatively modicum of behavior like average we may have somewhere in the neighborhood of about two suspensions a week so a suspension could be you're in the library and you you know you harass a staff member you could be suspended for 30 days for that you just tell us after you know you know so something like that so the severity of the suspensions are consistent with the pattern either of disruption or in

[45:01] the case of of criminal acts I have the ability through the behavioral guidelines to suspend somebody for up to 364 days and we use it liberally as you saw from the report that we shared with you a few days ago the communications here with you a few days ago all of the people who were involved in this incident that we could apprehend and identify as people involved in this drug and they were all suspended for 364 days the crime of smoking methamphetamine in a public area is a is a misdemeanor I don't know if there's any criminal sentence our stance has been that you have basically forfeited the right to come into the public library for at least a year which is the maximum that I can give we've had great support from the city attorney's office in terms of implementing those policies and effectively using that everyone you know the city's attorney's office as do I as do you I'm sure as well we you know there's we take very seriously the public having a right to an access to a public building and we don't hand out suspensions lightly we don't do it for

[46:00] no reason at all but we do hand out suspensions probably to the tune of on average 80 a year those numbers went down in from 2017 to 2019 but they've come back to 80 a year roughly uh throughout the pandemic and I think we're probably on Pace this year to beat that primarily because of the events in November and December but does that help answer your question okay great Matt Rachel Tara Nicole thanks Aaron um David's going to get a workout tonight uh getting up down at I'm not saying here specifically but I just but but while you're here I mean I just want to recognize you and your staff especially over the holidays for having to just deal with a really difficult and impossible situation um those are times where you should be spending time with your family um and you guys Rose to the occasion to try to get this uh solved and try to get us to a good place as fast as possible so thank you for that and I just want to recognize you and I know how hard that is for you and your staff especially for those that work for you that do the thankless job of dealing with folks all day long every day so just thank you

[47:01] thank you very much man and I and I I did intend to apologize the beginning of this if I seem um in any way untoward or impolite I am I Am Naturally a somewhat serious person my wife tells me that sometimes my seriousness comes off as I seem like I'm angry or I'm a patient and I I assure you that I am not none of those things I I have been through quite a lot of emotions with regard to this event and I have been extremely angry and as a are some of you experienced by speaking to me over the phone and I've been also extraordinarily sad I mean I'm I'm I am I am extraordinarily sad that this event happened and I'm um I come I have to keep reminding myself of the high road and that 99 of the 2 000 people who walk in there every day are that using this library for its intended purpose and a small fraction of people um have changed now the way the disposition of the public library for the immediate future and maybe for a long period of time well thank you David and your range of spectrum of emotions is emblematic of exactly the kind of leader we want

[48:01] running our library so thank you for that and we I respect that a lot thank you um my question kind of come circles back to something that Rachel brought up earlier and it really kind of is about maybe setting some of the community at ease as much as you know we might have framed this as a library piece it's a public bath there's it's a public bathroom concern largely right and I think maybe it's important for us to maybe reframe it in a public bathroom space um and so in that concept question I and maybe there's a question for for bill um is this you know we're coming out of pandemic so people have hygiene protocols there still people have either have them or still wearing masks regularly wash their hands or have hand sanitizer at the ready if people are concerned when they walk maybe into a public bathroom that they might be concerned about would exercising those same coveted precautions that we've all become habituated to are those reasonable precautions that people might feel are safe would make them safe if they're wearing a k not kn95 not knowing if someone maybe had done something in the bathroom 10 minutes or so before

[49:00] them or regularly wash or Pier all their hands do do would people feel safe that that habituated behavior will largely keep them safe if they accidentally come into contact or or encounter a space that meth had may have been recently used in yeah and I'll I'll start by saying that in in my profession I never use the word safe um when I hear safe I to me that means there is absolutely zero risk and you know driving your car to the library how has probably the biggest risk of your day but certainly covid has changed how we think about protecting our health in public spaces and exactly what you just laid out um would be beneficial in mitigating the risks from exposure to meth you know until this year in the last couple of years flu season was very mild because all of the precautions we were taking for covet and so I think people have gotten used to that and you know if they

[50:02] are concerned certainly you know masking would reduce the exposure to Vapors those masks are primarily for particulate and not Vapor but as we've said the meth contamination vapor is in droplet form and sticky so it would provide some benefit but I think the hand washing is the biggest piece I'm not sure hand sanitizer would make much of a difference other than the alcohol may be a better solvent at breaking down the contaminants but it's washing then those contaminants off that's going to be beneficial and and um the first day I went into the library and looked in the bathrooms and after all my years of experience I couldn't believe that I did it but the insides of the bathrooms have beautiful artwork on the walls and I was noticing that it's a non-porous surface it's an acrylic I

[51:00] think which is great because that makes remediation easier you can wipe the surface and it didn't penetrate but in all my years of experience it was still I had to touch it to make sure it was acrylic and then I said that was stupid and immediately washed my hands I appreciate the answer to that and just you know trying to give Community comfort in terms of how they can give themselves some protection because again not knowing what is going on in the rest of the public bathrooms here or in other cities um it's just good to equip people with what they think may work and if they're already habituated to it then all the better in that capacity but thank you I appreciate that and if I can just add I was talking with David beforehand and my family are we are big users of the Boulder Public Library I have a daughter that just turned 13 and has done the summer reading program every year and um you know I don't have any hesitation for once the library reopens letting her go back in it's good to hear Rachel um I think this question may end up

[52:01] being for Christmas check when I Meander around to it so um obviously our Focus tonight is on the library and I don't want to distract from that I know we'll have a bigger conversation I do want to though make note that um it is a community-wide problem myth and there's been a lot of sort of vitriol aimed at David and the library and I just want to acknowledge that we I think have sort of made the library a de facto day shelter and David's risen to that occasion remarkably well during covid and that is something that we should not have asked the library to be in my opinion and that like I think the buck stops here for that being the setup there so I want to just thank David and apologize that that sort of the vitriol is landing there because it is a it's a community problem and I don't feel it rests really with the library um so apologies but and um David mentioned that this is the

[53:00] number one place that people probably go to use bathrooms and that they we will need them to go probably somewhere else because we don't yet have a day services or day shelter so my question is where will people go and how will we keep those places safe six ish because there's no real safe thanks Rachel for that question and um we do have the public restrooms the that are at essentially 9th and Canyon that are right around the corner from the library so there are some public restrooms that are nearby while we're still finishing this remediation work for the next few weeks and our Parks and Recreation team is is making sure that they're uh doing everything they can to keep those bathrooms operational uh and so um we're the the library staff will also have um handouts available to those that are needing a restroom that maybe during this remediation period don't meet any of the the medical criteria to guide them exactly on how to get there

[54:02] and I assume we'll need some cleaning protocols basically at these restrooms as well yeah I mean those restrooms receive a cleaning uh and um the you know the biggest challenge that we face is vandalism of those facilities and so we're doing everything we can to make sure that they stay operational Tara and then Nicole I'm gonna go back in time since uh it's been about 15 minutes I probably should have colloquied but I wasn't on the ball so now I'm gonna have to ask whoever knows the most about the report it says main level children's family large bathroom exhaust vent cover 0.75 micrograms and then it said for the main children's small bathroom 1.2 so those are both above 0.5 so are the bat were the bathroom with the children's how are the children's bathrooms affected I'm just curious did

[55:01] it come through the vents is that because that was considerably lower than the whopping 75. um so uh certainly the children's bathroom was significantly lower but each of the bathrooms ventilation system is it's just an exhaust fit it's completely isolated from the main ventilation system for the entire library and so each bathroom exhaust vent goes straight up and out and so for contamination to have been in the children's restroom air bed it is most likely that someone smoked meth in that bathroom okay 75 is a lot isn't it seems like a lot compared to 0.5 it is um I think you know the highest I've ever heard of is two thousand okay

[56:00] um thank you and so but the reason it gets so high is it's a additive process um the chemical compounds in meth residue do not volatilize they do not decompose they do not degrade quickly and so um that number of 75 is really indicative of repeated use of meth in the bathrooms and it accumulates okay thank you okay David first I want to thank you so much for last minute coming and for giving the community of the history and all the details it was really meaningful and I have to say that I have total confidence that you are gonna take care of this to the best that it can be taken care of so I have one question you said mostly adequate in your um when you spoke that you felt that everything the way you've been dealing with the problem with narcotics and meth

[57:00] is that it's mostly adequate so the 364 days do you feel that's adequate enough um it's the city code um you know I understand both sides right so I mean but I would be perfectly honest like we we have requested through risk management and through the city's attorney's office in the past considerations for um potentially extending that I have um thanks to the city attorney's office I have um I have con worked with the District Attorney's office for well for quite some time right so if someone is convicted of a crime in the library we typically work with the prosecutors in the district attorney's office I typically work with the prosecution the District Attorney's office to get whatever sentencing they have for that crime the library suspension to be consecutive with so someone may get five years for a sentence of a crime that was committed in the library um I can then get a five-year suspension

[58:01] it's not it's not a workaround Teresa's staff is Teresa's staff is the one who advised me of this like seven or eight years ago that you why don't you try to pursue this path and so we did um I think when I said largely adequate um when I said largely adequate I meant the behavioral guidelines have been largely adequate for controlling the situation any use of drugs is a criminal offense and um we prosecute to the full extent that we possibly can I I'm not I cannot claim to be the victim the city doesn't claim to be the victim in in crimes um in instances where crimes have been committed we've also requested I've requested to be the victim I not just because we want to prosecute and I don't frankly my staff um you know I have had in the 10 years I've been here I've had four staff members assaulted by the public um I try to convince them to testify and to I've been successful in one of those

[59:00] four cases most of the them choose not to press charges for whatever reason and in that case you know in the most recent one we did get an exemption from the city attorney's office that allowed us to this that staff member rather than to list their home address in The Testament to list their home address so there are things that we're doing I um yeah I mean my sense on some crimes committed in the library it's not many but there have there there will be one probably a year or one every other year I mean what I tell the police is I don't want this person to ever be back in the library ever again um that's my you know I have worked in other libraries where there wasn't six city code that limited 364 days and I was capable of suspending a person's right to be able to come into the public library ever again but I but I understand the reasons why we do it I mean we are a public place this we all take seriously the the right of the public to have access to public space so I'm I'm not gonna you know I'll keep pursuing the possibility of extending that thing

[60:00] I I guarantee you I'll you know be back at some other point complaining that I want to have a longer than a 364 day suspension but um it's not for me to say really that is a that is a we have ways when people are committing crimes to get them out for longer than that and I'm it's a it's not a workaround it's kind of like a tacit way that we then Resort not to the city code but rather to us the the county or the league or the state to enforce a sentence which then allows us to override the city code of limitation of 364 days is that an okay answer can I can I ask a clarifying just to clarify for David on that one because obviously everything's gonna be said tonight it's gonna be highly scrutinized so I just want to clarify I I think when you said that when there is a sort of uh the district attorney or when the person is convicted of a crime of a certain say one year that the suspension from the library is concurrent not consecutive is that correct I think you said because I could always want to make sure that it's concurrent yeah so it's it's served together not additive yeah it works when

[61:00] when I in my mind I'm thinking I want somebody out of the public library for the rest of their lives um that then I get three years then I'm grateful right that's a happy situation correct wait um wait I just wanted to just finish is that all right unless it's a colloquies all right I was just curious so how how often when we you give 360 four day suspensions do we see like that person being suspended again like is that something that's happening it has at what frequency it has happened so you know it used to stick much better right I mean I I think my experience uh during the pandemic and certainly over the last years we were having a lot of people walk right back into the library and we have to tell them you're suspended for 364 days what I'm allowed to do is extend their extension their suspension from the date that they come back in so we will extend the suspension

[62:00] for that many more days so they're still the date they come back in and say like no I'm not you know John Smith let me say yes you are and you're suspended for 364 days and you're not allowed to be in here uh quite frequently if they Pro I mean in those cases when we they protest we call PD and police has them removed from the facility uh and we are you know we do often times although it's not something we have access to through the city code um you know the police officers and some commercial establishments have the ability to trespass someone we don't particularly have the ability I don't have the ability to trespass somebody from City facility but you know we asked them to leave for another 364 days I guess that's good to know I was also curious about you know once the 365 days are up yeah we've had a few that walk Waltz back in and then mess up again and they're back out for 364 days it's a handful I can't I mean my staff might know a little bit and that we I know of one individual who we have suspended for 364 days he has

[63:01] been suspended probably for the last three and a half years and maybe I've been able to be in the library for a few weeks in that three and a half years yeah yeah I'm gonna finish up so so it was just that small percentage it's so unfortunate that that we have about 80 suspensions a year I mean you know we'd have to we report those that data every year it's public information we provide that information I I don't know off the top of my head how many of them are 364 days no I'm done with this at 300 it's just I was just saying it was unfortunate the whole entire thing is unfortunate that um those small amount of people had such a large effect on this entire community that is unfortunate I absolutely agree and this is probably what we've identified about 12 to 15 people that's scary and um yeah so I just want to say and I can't speak for everybody but I know that um for me I'm here for you we're you're a partner of ours and we don't want you

[64:02] to feel alone in this and we're going to work together and um thank you for everything and thank you Chris staff and everybody that took a part in this security guards you guys I got uh Nicole and then come back to Mark and we should wrap up here pretty soon but yeah yeah Nicole awesome thank you I had just a really quick one and I don't know that it needs a response from staff it's more just a a question mark you had asked about getting a summary of kind of the remediation costs as that becomes more clear um and I was just wondering if we could get one other number for comparison there so um David as I understand it the libraries had among the biggest budget cuts in 2020 and 2021 of City departments um when you reopened it was during a time when the homelessness crisis and the math crisis were kind of on their way up and when you reopened you did not have all the staff that you had had

[65:00] pre-pandemic who were helping the 99 of people who were not engaging and prohibited or illegal activity in the library but also staff who were keeping an eye out for prohibited and illegal activity so you basically did not have all the folks that you had before so as we're are looking at what these remediation costs are I would really love to see a comparison of what would it have cost if we had given you David the staff that you needed in order to adequately staff the library to the levels that you needed in the first place to watch out for some of these behaviors that I think you were probably already even noticing I think some of the stuff started really kicking off in 2019 even a little bit before that so I would just really appreciate that when we're seeing remediation numbers to also see what would those Staffing costs have been just so that we can see what the comparison was for paying for remediation versus the preventive

[66:01] measures that might have kept us from this closure come back to them and also I just want to Echo the thanks really to everybody at the County as well as David to you and Maria everybody at the city who's been working on this for the last few weeks thank you two very quick questions the first is to the City attorney is it a simple ordinance to give David greater discretion uh in terms of the length of suspensions mayor Pro tem walek I'm happy to look into that and get back to you okay great and the next question is for David um there are many computer Terminals and obviously some of those are vulnerable to I guess tactile contamination uh is there a plan for how we're going to deal with those yeah so the current plan is already well underway we have removed them all from

[67:01] the main Public Library so there will be I mean I'm hoping this is a temporary action but so what I've promised my staff and what I will promise the public is that we will bring back some form of public Computing at the main library at such time that we feel like it's safe to do so right now the public can use the George Reynolds and uh The Meadows Branch library for public Computing and um and this is going to be a major inconvenience for a lot of people that I know on a first name basis a lot of retirees and seniors in our community who use the public libraries public Computing every single day and uh Lynn I'm sorry are there any steps you're going to take in anticipation of the possibility that other library branches might suffer the same problem yeah I brought that up I mean you know um my supervised Chris mustard knows that Mike I think on November 24th said I said I will close the bathrooms and I

[68:01] will um restrict computers and I um and now we are and so like that is a possibility at the branch libraries it will inquire additional resources because but I'm fully ready if it becomes in any way starts to look like an unmanageable situation I'm going to be back here asking for security at all the branches and I'm going to be asking for monitored regulated bathrooms and that is there's a cost associated with doing that right now there we have had no incidents of uh of any kind of uh drug use at any of the branch libraries and I want to Echo the thanks of my colleagues for stepping up and dealing with this problem so directly and forthrightly I appreciate that and I think it provides some reassurance to the community so thank you all right um I'm going to go ahead and wrap this up here but yet submit good um not not a question just sort of as a maybe Preamble ahead of open comment and

[69:01] it's really kind of to Echo what council member friend said which is um the public is justifiably angry upset perhaps even looking for blame and I'll just ask that the community not focus their ire at David farnan our director or his staff or any staff if you are looking for blame and looking to point that finger uh point it no further than this dice at this Council and past councils we are those that were elected to do this job and help lead this community and if you're angry about how a public institution or infrastructure has been managed or has has been afflicted by the issues in our society look at us and so I just ask that you point that at us thank you thanks for that Matt so um David I just want to say another uh very large thank you to you and to your staff right we of course this the meth usage and the meth contamination the bathrooms is absolutely unacceptable I appreciate you saying that illegal

[70:01] Behavior has never been tolerated in the library and I appreciated that that when you saw problems occurring that you took the steps necessary to deal with them to do the testing and once the results came back to close the library quickly to make sure that there was absolutely no threat to Public Health and I really appreciate the partnership from Boulder County Public Health Bill Joe thank you very much for that for working together with us and working so hard over the holidays to get the library closed and to get this remediation moving forward so very grateful to all of you for that and we stand ready here to partner with you and to take the necessary steps to prevent this from happening again and to make sure that the library is a safe place for all uh going forward so come back to us with anything that you need um and so we look forward to hearing from more about your plans and and let us know about any way we can help to Terrace Point and so with that I'll just uh say again thank you to all involved thank you for your time thank you for being here

[71:02] all right so we are now going to move on to open comment and I'm going to turn to Ryan to read our public participation guidelines thank you good evening Ryan Henson here serving the people of Boulder as Community engagement manager and we appreciate you members being here tonight to share thoughts and perspectives during open comment and our public hearing as we have slides coming up I want to clarify with everyone that the city has engaged with community members to create a vision for productive meaningful and inclusive conversations this Vision supports physical and emotional safety for community members staff and Council as well as democracy for people of all ages identities lived experience and political perspectives there's more information about this Vision on the city's website

[72:02] and on the next slide I want to talk through a few different examples of rules of decorum found in the boulder Revised Code and other guidelines that support this vision Each of which will be upheld during this meeting all remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to City business no participants will make threats or use other forms of intimidation against any person obscenity racial epiphats and other speech and behavior that disrupts or otherwise impedes the ability to conduct meeting or prohibited uh participants will be required to speak using their full name they're commonly known by individuals will display their whole name before speaking online and then from online participants only audio testimony is permitted with that I'll turn it back to you mayor thank you thank you Ron okay we've got six folks signed up in person and then we've got the rest 14

[73:00] more online so we'll start with the in-person people each of you get two minutes to speak our first three speakers are John nestlage Joel cascoyne and Chris barge maybe I can just set a couple over here too good evening Council appreciate the opportunity to speak with you this evening my name is John nestlich I am here because I've taken a deep interest in the matter of of not just Health but safety in the library primarily because

[74:02] of an incident that occurred almost exactly one year ago with my then 14 year old daughter on a Tuesday afternoon uh 1 30 on a school day she wandered over from Boulder High School to study and became the victim of a sex crime a man hid behind some stacks and began masturbating within 10 feet of her and another young lady who were studying together shocking but then again what's on these Boards show the over 1500 times that the police or Emergency Services were called to the library over the last three years nothing new in fact I was even more alarmed to learn that even after meeting with Mr Farnham and asking for remedial measures to be taken that there were eight further cases of indecent exposure in the library since January of 2022 when this happened to my my daughter and our family this isn't about just meth it's about feeling feeling safe and protecting the

[75:01] most vulnerable Among Us and to be able to utilize a public resource whether you're a child or elderly student whomever it isn't limited to just meth there are a great many other issues and consider the fact that it was very brave of a 14 year old girl to actually filed a police report and to put her name out there at Great risk and so count how many are tried to count how many people don't file a report who do feel threatened and simply leave or are victimized and personalize it internalize it and suffer needlessly for extended periods of time this is not something that we should take lightly you asked some good questions but I think there's a lot more questions that remain unanswered one of which was what happened to the guards who just quit that's what I read in the media accounts guards are supposed to be present making a difference and yet it happened seven times after my child was victimized so you know please keep an eye out and protect them more vulnerable among our community thank you John and very sorry to hear

[76:01] that that happened to your daughter now we have Joel gascoigne Chris barge and Evan ravitz Joel my husband signed up unfortunately we were unable to get child care for our one and a half year old after being randomly selected just yesterday so I am sharing his letter go ahead from Joel good evening good evening Council over the past 13 months I've been witness to the city review process my wife has gone through for her new Cafe she's been paying rent on an empty space prominently on Pearl Street without the ability to do anything with it her hands tied by Boulder City it's frankly been completely demoralizing and has taken a significant financial and emotional toll on her on side one I believe my he had submitted slides um it was a photo uh that somebody took

[77:00] that written on my space Pharmaca was better anything of course providing a service to the community would be better than an empty space for over a year the community is tired of seeing I'm sorry I think those are the incorrect slides can we pause as sure what happened I'm just Lou and his wife okay were those years [Music] oh I think he he shared he's told me he submitted them to the city clerk's folder we can get those sent to us later the community is tired of seeing empty spaces along Pearl Street it does not reflect well on Boulder and is a waste of opportunities for the community to

[78:00] come together in various establishments it should be the city's goal for our spaces to be fully utilized for the benefit of the community before my wife started the review process when I saw these vacant spaces I thought it was because we didn't have demand for new business here in Boulder what I've now learned is that it's because of a broken City Review process each review stage takes months and the state of deadline is never met on top of that reviewers do not make themselves readily available to help most egregious of all the review process is a moving Target brand new issues are brought up out of the blue having never come up in Prior Cycles blocking the ability to move forward there should be a goal to help businesses who are eager to fill these spaces and make meaningful contributions to Boulder especially at the small local businesses and those started by underrepresented people these are the people who will bring about the most special contributions to Boulder if the review process was designed with this in mind the equity guidelines councilwoman Joseph inquired about it would be completely different this is the type of Reform I think is warranted the current system skews the playing field towards chains and big Brands the past year has put significant strain on

[79:01] our family and there's no doubt that most new small businesses cannot handle this process it drains budgets and leads to those new businesses failing before they can even start and when they fail There's real damage caused to their lives and we lose out on another small local business Boulder could have had the community doesn't want Boulder to be taken over by big corporations and yet Boulder City processes are creating that outcome now we have Chris barge Evan ravitz Travis Hugh Cully good evening everyone thank you for holding this forum about the situation in the library and I just want to um express my thanks for the Frontline Librarians and staff at the library who I see every day frankly doing work they shouldn't have to um I I also want to say that what you've seen on display as far as your city

[80:00] staff's response to all this has been true integrity and character uh on display and is something I get to experience every day as I'm in the library this unbreakable culture that has not just survived but been able to help carry us through this pandemic by keeping one of our treasured resources and public spaces open isn't to be taken for granted um I so I I come with a message of thanks they've managed a tough situation for too long it's not their job I want to encourage the community to resist the temptation to conflate homelessness with drug use and that said I I also want to say meth is a nasty nasty problem um I used to be a reporter one of the biggest stories I ever did was about meth this was 20 years ago and to hear that this is a Scourge that is ticking up nationally and to now see it uh here in our prominent public and Civic use

[81:00] space this is something that I am really really motivated with you if we can partner with others to look at this holistically meth is something that um just it can't belong in our community and and it's going to take uh something Beyond a day shelter discussion this is a specific problem the drug use in our Civic and public areas is going to require a separate and comprehensive plan with action behind it so I appreciate the focus on okay what happened in the bathroom let's fix the bathroom let's look more holistically at what's happening in our public and Civic space and um let's let's tackle this yeah thank you Chris I appreciate that Evan ravitz Travis Hue culley and Jess Liu Evan ravitz I've spoken twice about the mayor betraying us after five years of saying

[82:02] he wanted legal camps for the homeless like Denver has eight of when he finally got a Progressive Majority instead they voted twice to spend Millions on sweeps of the homeless like trash Aaron is merely one politician who has learned that betrayal has the biggest payoff in politics Governor polis famously betrayed anti-fracking folks when in 2014 he first sponsored and then killed a ballot Initiative for 2500 foot drilling setbacks and Biden said he'd be the greatest labor Champion since FDR but actually prevented Railway workers from getting sick days when he has unlimited sick days he also betrayed his promises on Asylum Seekers Etc that's why for over a century we've also

[83:00] had direct democracy so that what you vote for is what you get you're the third City Council in a row to allow or encourage staff on behalf of behind the scenes dark money to obstruct each stage of our first in the country online petitioning for direct democracy that's 71 percent of Voters put in the city Charter over four years ago but you've lost your War the city of Taipei is now implementing online petitioning for direct democracy from which it will spread Boulder could have been seen as a beacon of democracy instead will be a footnote in history this hasn't been the People's Republic of Boulder since Penn hate was mayor he's spinning in his grave knowing that his name is on this building I think seven now we have Travis Hugh Kelly and Jess Liu

[84:05] good evening Council as to the shuffling of committee assignments on December 15th respectfully the decision you come to in filling Tara Weiner's seat as the boulder director of the rocky flat Stewardship Council is consequential in 2024 the IGA that establishes the RF LMA contract with the doe will be re-signed and continued for another three years protecting the rocky flat Stewardship Council from 2024 to 2027 perhaps even longer unless a deficit of votes are found to continue the Stewardship Council contract this year it is appalling to me but in light of last year's fire this Stewardship Council is a tabula rasa it has nothing to say it contributes nothing to the

[85:00] Boulder County Health or safety in the Safety Management in the area coloradans need to think differently about the way forward in region 8. therefore with Boulder counties Rocky Flats directorship comes an opportunity to answer the question of why we cannot have a comprehensive fire plan for the entire region decommissioning this group will have to come from within that'll be an inside job thank you very much we love you Lynn thank you Travis Jess Lou good evening mayor council I'm disappointed and frankly frustrated I feel the need and responsibility to speak tonight now 13 months since I began the city's review process my building permit timeline on the first slide is still not approved due to new

[86:00] reason introduced at the end of last year the constantly changing goal posts are yet another example of how the planning and development process ultimately suppresses and financially devastates small business owners like myself when I spoke at Council last it was noted I had a meeting scheduled with building officials Edward Stafford and Kirk Moores for that meeting my architect obtained an official ICC code opinion at staff's request to resolve a difference in code interpretation between my architect and Kirk the ICC opinion came back in favor of my architect's interpretation overturning Kirks which the final comment blocking my permit rested upon as next steps we were provided guidance on the final revisions required for my permit to be issued we have submitted our revised plan on December 13th and on December 20th Edward called my architect to inform her that a revised plan successfully resolved a single outstanding comment however there was now a new issue a local amendment that had been overlooked until then that was now blocking my permit issuance how after multiple review cycles and meetings over the course of six months was a local Amendment not mentioned until the 11th hour is this truly an instance of

[87:01] oversight and job incompetence or is this something else something worse just as I'm arriving at the finish line of a 13-month maranathon mind you a new obstacle is added and the Finish Line's been pushed back yet again it feels like pnds finds ways to impede progress a sentiment I've heard from other business owners in Boulder contrast to that to the great experience I had working with the licensing department for my beer and wine license slide 2 the whole process from application submission to approval took three and a half months posted that deadlines are adhered to requirements are clear and do not change and the staff make themselves readily available I share my positive experience because it's important to recognize departments that are working planning and development services is not one of those the process is nothing short of prohibitive and critical small businesses minority and women-owned businesses like Vine will continue to be casualties on the process until process is reformed thank you thank you Jess all right we're going to go to our remote speakers now number two I understand is not present Ryan Harwood so our first three will be

[88:01] Doug Hamilton Claire Kelly and Jenna McAfee okay are you can you hear me yes okay great um hi my name is Doug Hamilton you probably all know me I was a older Library champion and also co-chair of the campaign that created a Library District thank you so much for taking this issue with the library serious as it isn't a serious issue and as you know or probably should know that the status quo is not working the problems that happened at the library are probably happening in every space or every type of space in Boulder public and private we could be looking at a business private business that gets shut down because people were using drugs in the bathroom if we want to we need to start looking at solutions that address the systematic problems

[89:00] that cause uh drug addiction and Trauma and without and we need to propose solutions that put people in the environment first above you know profits and property and property values uh without that I don't think we're gonna move the needle on this issue uh we need to treat um every solution as a prototype and every everything that we're doing as a prototype we don't need long drawn out study sessions we need to get Solutions implemented quickly and just know that sometimes some of those Solutions are going to fail and we just need to experiment with it we uh and and it's okay we might fail and that's okay um but I think if you know I'm here to support you in you know things that

[90:00] don't necessarily work um because your heart's in the right place and we're trying to make our city safe for everyone uh thank you thank you Doug now we have Claire Kelly Jenna McAfee and Sherry heck hello uh I just want to first and foremost give a vote of confidence to our Boulder Public Library staff to our library director his managers and my workers who serve the public everyday library and I appreciate how they have headlines and rules to our library a safe space for people like me and my young kids and I see that happening with how the situation is being dealt with I'm looking forward to coming back regularly to the main branch with my family I tell her this is an especially difficult situation we all acknowledge that and we need recognition that this should really be a city Social Service issue it shouldn't really be a library problem it's a symptom unfortunately of

[91:01] addiction Nationwide which is well documented if anyone's not familiar I recommend you read the book Empire of Pain by Patrick radhe about the origins and impact of the opioid crisis in its relationship to meth I hope our city leaders can plan a larger discussion about these systemic issues of drug addiction and use in public spaces in Boulder one of the best things about libraries is that they are public spaces they are democratic spaces they provide access to information for all that's their mission and purpose and that's why they're so valuable in our society and in our city and as public space there are a wide variety of people who have access and unresolved issues in our city will present themselves the library currently has a good working relationship with the police when a security guard issue needs to be escalated at the library but our library workers are not experts in dealing with drug use or environmental contamination and I feel strongly that part of the resolutions issue is that Librarians should not be expected to play that role I've read their plans to

[92:01] open a day shelter which certainly be a great development for our city and something that has been needed for a long time but a day shelter that serves the unhoused will not tolerate drug use so it doesn't really solve this problem I saw a council member said in the Daily Camera this would be a problem for the new Library District of and I don't think that's fair dependent on an entity that doesn't even exist yet it will be only a problem if the city and county doesn't take action now thank you thank you Claire mayor bracket I have a question yes go ahead um for Claire if you're still there and can hear me um would you mind sending us the book recommendation that you just gave emailing well out to the ethers if you no longer have an ability to unmute that would be yes I'd love to send it to you Empire of pain Patrick or Keith thanks thank you great now we have Jenna McAfee Sherry heck and Sharon procopio

[93:01] hi this is Jenna Jenna I'm also here to talk about the library issue and as a person who really loves our library system I'm thankful for the library staff who perform their services every day in the midst of very challenging circumstances Library staff may be among the most visible City staff in the downtown area on a daily basis and I am sorry that they have to constantly be on the front lines of a growing issue that is devastating communities across across the country the majority of people using our downtown library are using it for its intended purpose and getting tons of benefit and Joy from it like me for the very small number of visitors who have been abusing the library I am upset I don't want Library Services impacted by that small group of people but I also don't want City policy being

[94:01] impacted by a small group of people who consistently portray Boulder and lately the library as dangerous and crime ridden we can't effectively govern or make policy from a place of fear and mistrust I also think we owe it to the library whose staff work right in the middle of the Civic area every single day to have a serious discussion about how to make the downtown area accessible and safe for everyone and this policy should be rooted in Humane and proven harm reduction approaches thank you thank you Jenna now we have sherry heck Sharon procopio and Riley Mancuso we have a public health emergency in Boulder our indoor public spaces are being contaminated with meff we have our

[95:01] main library debacle which is being reported in the national press the community has complained for a very long time about the drug use at the library in the last three years there have been 1499 reported incidents at the main library 39 of those were in 2022 alone incidents such as drug use assault harassment indecent exposure criminal mischief weapons fires Etc there are two police reports of drug use on 1223 at both the East Boulder rec center and the boulder homeless shelter and meth was found in the shower of the homeless shelter according to the Colorado Department of Health and public environment even one instance of mass smoking in a building warrants specialized testing and a strict protocol must be followed for that testing and any mitigation do you know that smoking meth can contaminate a building more than manufacturing it why are the East Boulder rec center and the boulder homeless shelter not being tested for contamination because City

[96:00] officials decided that just one instance of meth smoking inside the rec center doesn't warrant testing this is false also how does the city know there was only one instance the patrons of the homeless shelter and the rec center deserved better than this by a city with half a half trillion dollar annual budget the boulder Works Government website encourages illegal drug use in public bathrooms it gives detailed instructions on how to use illegal drugs in public restrooms and not be discovered this isn't harm reduction it's harm promotion and not testing the boulder homeless shelter and the East Boulder rec center for best contamination is also harm promotion by the city uh were you able to hear me yes we can hear you oh sorry um I urge you to implement the same security measures now in the branch libraries that are planned for the main library we need to be proactive and not reactive thank you thanks Sherry now we have Sharon

[97:01] procopio Riley Mancuso and Sam Jones hi everyone can you hear me yes this is Sharon procopio I live here in Boulder I also happen to do a lot of Engineering in town so I'm very familiar with the library and a lot of our community issues and I wanted to speak um similar to others just to chime in in support of the library during this difficult issue um actually today my my favorite thing online posting uh my son's favorite books and getting recommendations from the library was another successful set of recommendations from The Librarians so I always appreciate even if we can't be there in person how helpful the library staff are um this issue is something that I think we all recognize as a community-wide issue I think several people and on Council have noted this is not a library issue but it is kind of falling on the library to handle these problems given the fact that we don't have enough resources elsewhere I've heard the days shelter mentioned and it's true I think that would be a helpful aspect but as a

[98:02] community I think we have to work towards those Solutions several other people have already said that as well so I don't want to be redundant but I do you think there are some opportunities for the community so for everyone speaking out with concerns there is an innovation in design Homeless Solutions group for Boulder County being run that I'm a part of and I think they were having trouble with engagement and are going to go out for additional requests for support and I hope to see the people who are concerned for this issue sign up to engage with this group and other groups in the community that are working to solve it so we can address this issue as a community and I look forward to working with everyone to see our city grow and Thrive and address this together thank you thank you Sharon I understand Sam Jones is not present so our next three people are Riley Mancuso Aiden Reed and Rachel Daly

[99:00] so my name is Riley Mancuso I am a regular user of the boulder library system and I work in substance use treatment I am calling in today to say that if the question at hand is how do we present Matthews in the library bathrooms then the only answer is to provide people with safer places to use methamphetamines um one thing I know and what is known by every single major drug treatment and harm reduction program in the world is that you cannot force people into treatment another thing that I know is that people do not prefer to use drugs in public bathrooms if you are using if your best place to use a drug is in a public bathroom you're having a pretty day and most likely a pretty life um I want to point out that when people

[100:02] use methamphetamine intense they are causing harm to no one but themselves and yet methamphetamine contamination is used as justification for police taking people's tents and worldly possessions and throwing them directly into dump trucks we have this on video um it was done by the Serb pro contractors it's done by city workers now and it costs millions of dollars to commit that of people's worldly possessions and you do this and wonder why anybody would smoke in the bathroom but I also want to fight the idea that this is only a problem caused by unhoused individuals it is caused by our society's General criminalization and moralistic Judgment of substance use which is not morally wrong and when it

[101:00] becomes a disorder is a medical phenomenon that's really all I wanted to say so please don't listen to the bigots your time's up Riley thank you now we have Aiden Reed Rachel Daly and Eric bud is not present so then Alex Alexis Howell good evening Council are you able to hear me yes good evening my name is Aidan Reed um uh thank you to the library staff um for all your work um I'd like to caution the council against a punitive response to this incident and while I understand the impulse um I think that it's important to avoid a push to continue to criminalize homelessness already homelessness is criminalized in Boulder and criminalizing it does not actually reduce the risks that come with it nor does it reform the conditions that created in the first place we know that substance misuse mental illness and

[102:01] housing and security are interlinked and a response should reflect that a punitive response is insufficient because it will displace crime rather than reduce it uh a rotating cycle of incarceration and subsequent release back into the same conditions that created substance misuse in the first place isn't a sustainable model of Public Health nor is it a sustainable model of public security what is required instead are a comprehensive wraparound services and sustained funding and I hope that instead of pushing to continue to sweep homeless camps and make it illegal to camp in general the council will consider ways to ameliorate the conditions that create homelessness and substance misuse in the first place the council has the power to set the priorities for Boulder and I hope you will consider what public health measures are actually effective and make Boulder a safer more pleasant Community for all thank you thank you Aiden now we have Rachel Daley Alexis Howell and Nicole Perlman

[103:08] as someone who loves this Library loves the staff who worked there and the ends who has benefited enormously from the library as a mother and a resident I want to say thank you to the city and the libraries for working through this incident swiftly and for taking action to fix and remediate the building space so that it can reopen safely again I also want to commend our Librarians for regularly handling difficult incidents and problem behaviors from the public now the city faces a much more complex and wide-reaching problem that led us here I'm glad to see to see the city council taking leadership and accountability and looking at this incident as a symptom of a larger issue for the region thank you to the council in advance um for giving our libraries the necessary support in dealing with the specific issue and for protecting these

[104:00] space spaces for everyone including staff so that we can all get back to enjoying one of Boulder's most loved Community spaces real Nicole Perlman and Matthew Reynolds and then a couple people have showed up who weren't present previously so we'll get to them next after those so Alexis hi um I just want to Echo what a lot of other folks have said on the topic of um sort of addressing responding to methamphetamine use in the library and and Echo that I would discourage the city from adopting a a punitive response as another speaker said there's been a lot of discussion of focusing on security and enforcement in the context of the library in response to this issue and the reality is that because as many Elders have said this is not just a library issue enforcement will not fix this right enforcement drives people further to the margins of society and makes them increasingly desperate and

[105:00] rather than using meth in places that are safer for them and for others to the extent that it's safe to use men at all but we're going to save it for them brothers they end up using the places like the library bathroom and increased enforcement and response to this is going to drive people to find other places that are going to probably be even less safer than and the community so if we really want to address this what we need are Services we need safe use sites we need free involuntary addition addiction treatment programs provided unconditionally and I think most importantly we need services that people actually want to use if we look to homeless services in the city as an example I know from speaking with on-house folks living on the streets that many people don't want to use those services that are available to them because they feel that they have to completely surrender their personal autonomy in order to do so and for many people that's too high of a price to pay to access those services and if the city introduces Addiction Services that have that same problem we're going to see similar failures in that case so I would

[106:01] really encourage the city to keep all of these things in mind with working to address these problems because again you cannot criminalize drug use out of existence it is again as many have said a public health issue first and foremost thank you thank you Alexis now we have Nicole Perlman Matthew Reynolds and Ryan Harwood Nicole your mic is open let's see maybe we should come back to Nicole at the end all right so Matthew Reynolds Ryan Harwood Sam Jones

[107:03] looks like Matthew Reynolds is not in the meeting um we'll go to uh Ryan Harwood nope that's not like us in the meeting either let's move next to get Sam Jones then Eric fed not seeing Sam Jones here either let's try Eric Ben all right Eric Ben thank you Council Eric but I live in Boulder um I also wanted to speak on the library tonight I really appreciate um both City Library staff as well as the city council for talking about this tonight I just been following the local reporting on this and you know really from The New York Times which I thought

[108:00] was relevant which said quote Boulder County said there had been a sharp increase in the number of methamphetamine related properties places where the drug is manufactured to use in the county over the past six years and that that rise mirrors the drug overdose crisis that many communities around the country are struggling to contain and so you know we're all disappointed that the that the library closed temporarily and we all know that that's not acceptable and we know that um that really the question is you know what what do we do about this um I appreciate the remediation efforts and that's um the the public spaces being able to be opened but going forward I would really like to see the city council address through causes here that's you know we need a day shelter for our people experiencing homelessness and that people have services for we have services for people experiencing addiction and what's what's not helpful which is the further criminalization of

[109:00] people suffering from addiction and homelessness that's not helpful hosting police officers in our library is not helpful and has some seriously harmful effects to marginalized communities so it sounds like this closure was out of an abundance of caution and that further investigation found no additional contamination and the officials running our library should be commended for quickly moving to address this problem and so I hope council is thoughtful in ways to address the root causes of these problems in the future thank you thanks Eric I understand Ryan Harwood is back in the meeting can you go to Ryan please hello Council I want to congratulate you on the sweeping success that the tent ban has been not only are homeless deaths up 41 this year but you also managed to get the library shut down too

[110:00] now when the tent ban was being proposed I distinctly remember Chief Harold saying the police department needed the ability to steal people's tents on site because people were using drugs in them I wonder where those drug users went it is such a mystery to me you know if the past 50 years of drug policy tells us anything criminalizing drug users makes them stop using drugs I'm being sarcastic of course the War on Drugs has resulted in massive increases in drug use and Boulder is no exception look you took people's tents away so homeowners wouldn't have to see poverty and a subset of those people use map those people found the next best secluded place to use the library bathroom it's really that simple I'm not making excuses for anyone it sucks that the library is closed but people are going to use drugs most of the people making comments tonight use

[111:00] drugs the difference is we have homes to use our drugs in almost people don't so they're going to find the next best thing now you're going to have a bunch of people here talking about how we should do more what caused the library to shut down in response to the library getting shut down more criminalization more cops harder punishments and so on and so on I'm sure the War on Drugs will work this time here's the deal people are going to use drugs whether you like it or not say a few sites and decriminalization are what keep our public spaces drug free you can either listen to Decades of evidence in all the experts in addiction and homelessness or you can listen to the people who want to make a Guantanamo Bay for homeless people the choice is yours [Music] thanks Ryan let's see if we can get Nicole Perlman this time

[112:03] Nicole your mic is open to know Nicole was having some technical issues earlier we tried to resolve it Nicole we still do not hear you so Nicole sorry it's not working I'd encourage you to send us an email with your thoughts and I believe that is the last person who signed up and was present in the meeting so we'll bring open comment to close and I'll turn to staff to see if there are any responses to any open comments I think we just had uh uh one David farnan would like to address some of the speakers related to the library yeah my uh um no I I would apprec just the opportunity so I am we'd have to check with Chief Herald um I believe the data shared on the number of calls to the public library the Public Library address is given out for all kinds of calls downtown uh into

[113:00] the sub Public Service uh to the park so they list the address including areas under the library and encampments and a lot of different other things so um I don't need the exact number um I believe I I have memory of six um actions of sexual deviancy in the library in the past 10 years I know of two this year and I do not want to in any way have this construed it's disparaging I am a parent as well this is a very serious offense the police also filed a police report and that's instance I mean we take everything seriously we captured surveillance cameras and identified two people who we thought were suspects we shared that with PD they were able to identify an individual they gave us the name of that individual and I believe sought him out I do not know if they made contact my staff took that name and I know for a fact that that person has at least five convictions of of

[114:01] um public indecent public exposure I have stayed in touch this entire time with the officer who opened that case uh that gentleman came back into the libraries probably two months after the incident which was reported to you this evening he was again at this time witnessed by an adult male who agreed to testify and to give his number I shared that number with PD I do not know if PD was ever able to make contact with this individual I know that we suspended him for 364 days I know that only a few weeks ago he walked into a different Library within the Boulder Public Library System my staff immediately identified him from us having shared his photo and expressed the seriousness of someone in our library who was a sexual deviant and they immediately called the police that person again fled I do not know if the police have ever made contact with the individual I think they did initially in order to identify he

[115:00] was I am unsure where he lives I don't have any of that information but I assure you I have the officer the case manager the number on my desk and I remain in contact with that case manager of that case to this day I mean I sent an email two weeks ago when he or when the when this gentleman walked into one of our other libraries he there was no he had no offense but he is trespassed currently from the library for 364 days I'm unaware if he has been arrested or convicted of any crime in the city of Boulder and the number of incidents which were reported in two different things I'm quite certain that is not true I I think the I will have to check with Chief Harold I believe they report the a lot of calls to the downtown area uh to the park to the Civic area maybe old could follow up on that calls that were issued for the library itself the building yeah um Council so I've got Rachel Matt Tara I have a couple um I mean it's been a while since we

[116:00] heard from the public so thank you all for being here and we probably all have a lot of questions um so first is on Jess who testified twice this situation um I think it would be helpful we hear this so often that it's hard to get through Planning Department Services and it's hard to get through to someone and it's clunky and and costing people money and the the sort of bigger actors can get through it but the mom and pops can't so can we get another update on on how we I mean we really I think need to improve the whole system and somebody shouldn't have to come to council once let alone twice to get um through the Hoops so an update on that would be great on her situation as well as the whole like what are we doing to make it usable yeah Brad Miller our director of planning and development services is here hi good evening Council Brad Miller director of Planning and Development service so sorry to duplicate um two things just wanting to address the

[117:02] specific case and then the more General comment that you speak to councilman friend um after um Miss Lou spoke this this last time a couple months ago she as as she noted uh already had a meeting in plan in place with our staff and we followed through um on trying to process a building permit uh we did make a mistake in that case and not flagging something early and that has um uh that that has been followed up from a Personnel standpoint but we've acknowledged that and then advised her of of the regulation for spring clearing in this case but at the same time certainly I asked staff to dig deeper into you know creative possibilities and this week we've we've been able to do that and as I reported in my meeting with her this afternoon for a couple hours we anticipate that we're going to

[118:00] be able to release that tomorrow and I'll be happy to provide Council the written background and all that for kind of the specifics of that case and which represents really the Nuance that's true of many cases uh to the larger issue flag before we move on she's got her hand up in the back I don't think we I don't think people can come and speak but yeah I'll just say Miss I apologize we don't have a back and forth opportunity but maybe you could chat with Brad one-on-one after this interaction is done and I will say Bob and I have office hours as well you're welcome to come speak to us you can follow up with an email as well yeah um communication with the office uh as you may recall the service Hub was opened last spring this is the in-person site that we have open at the New Britain building from 10 o'clock till four o'clock Monday through Friday we have received feedback as that ramped up that people were not aware of that so we will redouble our efforts to kind of make sure that that word gets out I appreciate it actually the the

[119:00] suggestions from Miss lewd this afternoon about um how we can put that on people's emails and some things like that we do uh it is a big culture shift because for literally for decades there was a common counter for in real time use of specialist subject matter specialist that was very expensive and so now we have an appointment-based kind of situation where people can come in to get routing and Direction on information but then make appointments as well but we acknowledge that that's an area of communication that we need to do better and just even in the last month I've heard about that and again these These are the steps we need to do in in kind of Shifting the culture that went all virtual suddenly for for two years and now is coming back out of that and and we know we can do better and we've got steps in place and I'll be happy to provide some details

[120:00] about that to council as well I appreciate you hitting the ground running as the the new planning director here so thank you for that thanks fine with me yeah yeah go ahead so let's say that she oh thanks I always forget that so the last problem was the fault I guess of the employee that they overlooked something right the sprinkler yes which so let's say that she is again losing some more money on this employee who pays for that amount of money it's just she has to keep she has to pay for the city's mistake the uh we are working out how to refund the parts that we can which is uh the fees for service and those types of things and uh there are limitations on being able to refund for example sales tax and development impact fees and those types of thing Council Members Plus rent right all right I would assume

[121:02] you have to pay rent while you're waiting for your um if a person's made that contribution but I would defer to the attorney's office for those kind of analysis uh the city is not liable for the time that the regulatory process takes unless there's a prescribed time period and we violate that time period and we're found liable um here there is a suggested time period that can be extended and so um that is it's simply not a liability that the city incurs well I just have to agree with her that I cannot even believe it's over a year and she still hasn't been able to to get that um approval it must cost a huge amount of money and it really is true that if we're trying to get local businesses to be successful how is that going to happen under these circumstances when I walk down Pearl Street in Westborough there are so many four lease signs and likewise I'm like oh I guess we we can't

[122:00] lease these maybe that's not even true maybe we just can't get the approvals is yeah I I understand your point and certainly we have an obligation and a commitment to streamlining the the process that's a project that was started I think I've described to council before a couple years ago before I started and is being implemented really resulted actually in the development of the department being formed two and a half years ago um to speak to any individual permit or or generalize about a time frame is difficult because some permits can take years if there are things that are not being addressed or if it's simply goes dormant so I'm always reluctant to try to say that a particular time frame is accurate or not accurate given or meaningful based on on specific circumstances but as I've talked with most if not all of you certainly there's been a anecdotal evidence and and we've

[123:00] uh also have our performance metrics that show that those turnaround times are not what our performance indicators and and goals are uh I think I've shared with you more recently too that particularly in our plan review we're not making our performance goals and we've been taking steps including hiring uh contractor help a couple months ago to help us get to that point I've got a meeting with that group safe belt here in the next couple of weeks just to reinforce our need and double down on on their services as well sorry if I said admit I know you're you're awesome no I I appreciate your your frustration we're frustrated that we can't do better all the time as well you're gonna you're gonna take care of this and make it better I do thanks and then my last one well you're still California oh my God I almost cut you off there a minute ago so I'm gonna go real quick through a couple of things one is to Chris there was a question about the East Rec Center having a meth smoking incident did we have a meth smoking incident discovered at the East

[124:01] Boulder Rec Center uh there I have heard that there's a copy of a police report that is circulated around um on the on an incident that occurred the evening of December 23rd which is when we were conducting Sheltering operations at the East Boulder rec center and Community Center that police report specifically references uh an individual who was found that had a blue pill on tinfoil which typically is associated with fentanyl not methamphetamine so remediation not happening there because it wasn't discovered to be meth is that okay I think Ali knows about this and I do see she's in the meeting Ally Rhodes I wonder if I could invite you to turn on your camera turn on your audio to address this uh good evening mayor members of council Ali Rhodes director of Parks and Recreation and Chris Chris has the facts accurate there was an incident the evening of December 23rd the police were called and an individual was arrested

[125:01] and we have confirmed with PD after some Community questions that this was not a methamphetamine related incident thanks Sally next question there was um someone mentioned we should be cleaning the homeless shelter we don't operate the homeless shelter correct that is correct and then my last question is several um speakers mentioned or sort of emphasized Public Health aspects and needed responses to the math epidemic obviously we aren't Public Health that's the county so are we talking are we in Communications with the county about what what they're planning to do in response to what is clearly a growing epidemic yeah we've had continued conversations with Boulder County Public Health and I think as Nuria mentioned at the the top of the meeting that brought our conversation is one that we are working to schedule and and they will be they can speak with us as well on that at some point yeah that's a good conversation that's the idea is how do we start to frame that conversation in a way that gets the right folks in the

[126:01] room thanks for bearing with all my questions I've got a bunch of people queued up let's try to be brisk with the questions because it's getting late I got uh Matt Tara Nicole mark okay you're good and then so Tara um I know oops that was my stool fun night here I know John that you wanted to say something as well and we don't have the back and forth so if you want to contact us in email that would be good okay good Nicole thanks um just two relatively relatively quick things one of them I'm not sure actually if anybody can answer this because I think it's more of a county thing but I will just ask it in just a quick yes or no if we do or do not have the information for it one of the speakers mentioned that the Boulder County Works website tells people to use

[127:00] public restrooms to use drugs I know that's a county program but can anybody confirm that Nicole I don't have any information on that but we can follow up um and then I think the other question this is one one for David and David I don't need a long answer here because I know we are getting late uh but just you know any any quick things that you can say here um I heard some of the concerns about what increased security would look like um as the library reopens and I'm just wondering how will we keep the library a welcoming space um what what are your plans I mean I know it's one of the most welcoming places in our community and you know will the security be armed um you know how can we how will we avoid profiling people um with this added security yeah well we have not I mean the library question removed armed guards from the

[128:00] library years ago as a response to public uh outcry we have no intention of bringing armed guards back um the guards the The increased guards that we are intending to hire Nicole are um essentially bathroom monitors uh we don't I don't don't know that there'll be you know there are questions about uniforms and that kind of thing or whether they wear a polo shirt I don't really know we've never hired them before but we're going to be hiring a type of guard that can actually make um judgments based upon someone's health condition and be able to allow people into the bathrooms on a regulated basis okay thank you mark and then Lauren thank you mayor just a couple of quick questions um Brad um come on down it's on the hot seat today did I hear correctly that Miss Lou's permit is now ready to go or we we are very close to thinking it'll be ready to go so um

[129:00] very detailed analysis that allowed us to find a way to um not require sprinklering and that analysis is being written up by Edward it's taken a little while he's got bronchitis right now so we anticipate that that given to her architect oh the architect will be satisfied with that we'll get the final plans and then be able to release it how large is that space in square feet I'm going to say 1600 square feet if I remember there we go 13 months for okay so 13 months for 1600 square feet seems yeah uh a little out of line so six months of that was a zoning review it required a minor modification that um that the my understanding is the building owner was not aware of and then after that we we started the review a couple months into that is when um um you know that was the dead of the summer when when some of those things

[130:01] that I alerted to in terms of service delivery were happening we uh subsequently found about the the fire sprinkler issue a couple months then to entertain a potential analysis from the the national code folks um and then and then the last month or so working through a creative alternative to that and my last question is um how long did it take the Macy's developers to get their permits which is really a way of asking are we treating large spaces and large developers differently with a different level of priority than small businesses and is that appropriate well it isn't appropriate and I feel confident that we are not doing that we did do some analysis when uh you all asked us that question um I think a couple months ago and I'd be happy to to provide that again um to the best of our knowledge in looking at the metrics and such there is

[131:01] no systemic treatment of large versus small now is it possible that larger groups can turn around you know have Consultants who can turn things around quicker possibly um you know larger larger cases take longer for us to review too but we weren't able to identify anything that was systemic in that regard thanks and and I think we need to do better on a 1600 square foot space agreed okay thank you I'll just say Brad I appreciate the answers to the questions I do hear that you all know that that there's work to be done here and I know it's on your to-do list to continue to improve on that top of the tutor absolutely all right Lauren then uh Juni wait Brad don't sit down [Laughter] forward um but I would like to know sort of more about what triggered this minor mod that

[132:01] or you know the six-month review um for this smaller space that they were that the building owner was potentially unaware of um as well as what you mentioned some streamlining I think we could use some more detail on what that looks like as well as what permitting times are and you know I'm gonna sort of harp on the same thing that I've been bringing up before which is are we really staffed enough to bring forward these projects and you know to go through permit process in a timely manner while also doing the work that we as Council have on our work plan um I mean I know that those aren't necessarily overlapping positions but sure they're you know both very important I think for this Council just to speak to the the one

[133:01] um piece of you know a department that's got many different kind of Permitting things the the plan review we we are not staffed enough and we've been trying to hire a position now for some time we've been trying to hire a chief building official which I've shared with you all are are really disappointing failure on having thought we filled that and then didn't Council was very supportive in giving us another position for a plans review uh expert and and we are actively and and aggressively trying to fill that but with limited success which is why we've hired safe build some months ago they have made a dent but it's been more of a plateau than an improvement that's why meeting with them to see how we then take it up the next Notch to to keep improving of course part of that was there becoming familiar with our systems and and all those types of things as well and I say none of that to make an excuse that that's just the the environment we've been been working in and we're working hard to improve it

[134:00] thank you thank you thank you I don't necessarily have a question I just find this whole conversation a bit frustrating as well the fact that Miss Louise been coming here over and over again over the same issue and I can say Brad from I know you're doing a good job and you're trying your best but I I just feel like you not answering the questions you mentioned that staff is sick and I understand that but again this is a small business owner who's trying to get her business off the ground and I just I don't think it's fair to just say staff is sick I think you have to do your best to overcome those challenges and tonight I didn't hear that and I'm frustrated for her coming here again it's been several months since she's been coming here

[135:00] discussing the same issue and it should not be happening again it's a small business we have to do better buy or small businesses thank you so Chris maybe you could yeah I'd love to jump in here and just uh appreciate um the concern that council members are raising and really also thank Brad for uh addressing the questions um and uh trying to be as as open and clear as possible and I think Brad's been clear that that his team has been working and focused on improvements in Service delivery and uh and the experience that the department is having in some of their service delivery they know is not meeting the standard but um they're they're working day in and day out Brad and I have had regular con communication on uh on the efforts that they are doing to continue to work to improve their services so

[136:01] um I just want to to um thank Brad for the work that they are doing and know that uh and emphasize to counsel and the community that um this is an area that we are focused on it's good to hear I have something else to say I hear what you're saying but Brad has not been clear because I was not clear because he mentioned that he's still working on it we're still he this community members been coming here right and we still don't know as of today when the approval process will go through and and I apologize to the degree that hasn't been clear some of it is just detail that I don't have at my fingertips and I'm very happy to provide that in in writing to council thank you that would be helpful Brad maybe tomorrow we could get some additional detail okay um that brings us to the end of open comment so we're now going to move on to

[137:02] uh yes and I'll just point out it is 8 8 15. we still have two substantive matters to to get through so I will try to be efficient from here on uh try to be efficient going forward okay so we got a consent agenda items uh Elisha if you could take us into that please yes sir thank you tonight's consent agenda is item three on the agenda and it consists of items a through e do we have any questions or comments on the consent agenda seeing none perhaps a motion we'll do it I move passage of the consent agenda items a through e second okay we've got a motion and a second this is a show of hands vote so all in favor please raise your hand okay that's unanimous the consent agenda passes unanimously

[138:00] very good we've got now it's time for our call-ups and yes mayor Brockett I think there's just one clarification and there was one item in the consent agenda item 3E which is the commit uh committee appointments for Council I think we had an error when we produced those materials on one of the committee assignments for the rocky flat Stewardship Council we listed that as vacant and I think councilman Winder is going to continue to serve on that committee you have our deep gratitude Tara for continuing to serve on that so um perhaps Mark you might amend your your motion to include that alteration um I am amending my motion to include passage of three e um to reflect the continuation of Tara weiner uh respect to Rocky Flats uh Rich do you want to accept that or no second okay good yeah uh let's do it again all in favor as amended okay still unanimous thanks

[139:02] for pointing that out Chris all right we've got a few color check-ins yes sir our call-up check-ins are item four on tonight's agenda 4A is the concept plan review and comment for proposed Redevelopment at 2801 J road to include 84 for sale dwelling units ranging from 1050 square feet to 1800 square feet consisting of town home duplex and Triplex housing types the plan proposes 40 percent that is 34 middle income and affordable units the percent of affordable housing community benefit will be finalized through annexation this is reviewed under case number lur 2022-00038 very good and I believe we're gonna have a very short presentation on that do I have that right uh that's right let me pull that up for you real briefly there you can see that

[140:03] all right and Shane if you could just introduce yourself please yes hi good evening Council my name is I'm the project um so I'll just give you a real quick overview of this follow-up consideration item that tornado 1j um so the purpose of the concept plan is to review these acid development proposal and identify key issues in advance of more detailed submittals so the applicant receives comments from the Clinton board staff and the public and city council if you choose to call up the item the planning board held a public hearing of this item on December 6th this proposal is an unincorporated from the county Northeast of the intersection of 20 East and Jay Road it's immediately east of City Limits and the 4.58 Acre Site contains the existing City Church Boulder building the subject property is in area two of

[141:00] the bbcp which is the area under County jurisdiction where annexation can be considered and the underlying bbcp land use designation is public which reflects the current religious assembly use the proposal would involve a request to change the Landry's map designation um since the property is currently located in unincorporated Boulder County the request would require annexation and for the property to be zoned to the city Zone District The Proposal consists of 84 drawing units um on P simple Lots in town home due plus the triplex configurations and it would include 34 for sale middle income permanently affordable units in this area this slide was the overall review processes that the proposal would need to go through and at the planning board hearing on December 6th the board provided help and feedback on several key issues including the Kirkland's land use designation initial zoning compatibility with the

[142:02] surrounding area and general feedback on the proposal um the applicant is shared they do have a desire for Council to call up this item the eventual annexation initial zoning and the land use map change requests that their proposal requires would eventually need to be decided by the council so coin of the item at this stage would allow for Council to provide feedback prior to those detailed submittals being prepared if Council chose to call up the item public hearing would be scheduled and then upcoming meetings and the applicant is here tonight and happy to share more about that request or answer any questions thanks Shannon that was very risk and efficient appreciate that um any questions or interest in calling this one up Rachel um I think since the applicant asked us to call it up I am inclined to call it up I also just want to clarify is it at call up or right now that we would need to invite like others Transportation tab

[143:01] to look at it Teresa you might address that um yes it's been the the practice of council and I believe code suggests that if if the council wants to call this item up and it wants to refer to tab or the design Advisory Board Advisory board thank you for the assist um that you would do that at this time as well so I did see some language from planning board that would make me inclined to especially um refer to tab because there were some some I don't know Road interplays involved I'd have to go back get my computer to reboot and reboot and look at it but I would be interested in calling it up and referring at least to tab I probably looked at my neighbor to the left here on dab put her on the spot well Rachel do you want to just go ahead and make a motion to this effect here I make a motion to well yes although I believe that I'm

[144:01] always said I'm always asked to be more clear on why I'm referring it to tabs so I will need to find the highlighted portion here um so I would make a motion that we call up this concept review concept plan for review and that we refer to tab um I I know that there were questions from uh planning board members and it was identified as a key issue um and in looking at Transportation quality open space and providing a desirable development so perhaps also referral to Deb yeah and I'm out including in my motion you referral to dab for uh giving us feedback on a desirable development do we have one second okay do we need further discussion or could we just go to vote on this let's go to vote all right this is a show of hands Alicia yes all right okay

[145:01] all in favor of calling this up raise your hand that's unanimous okay it's duly called up with referrals to Davin tab thinks the thank the applicant for being present but I guess we don't have any questions at this time I'm sure we will call it hearing itself okay uh so a couple more our next call up is item 4B the vacation of utility easement at 33.20 let me just double check that address because it was corrected I've got 32 65 30th Street thank you it is 33 65 30th Street referenced under ADR 2022.00314. I get 32.65 I believe but yeah any interest in calling this one up all right seeing none our next one 4C is the vacation of four utility easements on the 1400 block of Broadway

[146:01] ADR 2022.00294. interest in calling this one up not seeing any all right so we can move to our public hearing for the evening yes sir our public hearings are public hearing my apology is item five on tonight's agenda 5A is the concept plan review and comment for the Redevelopment of a 2.33 acre area including the properties generally known as 2504 2506 2536 and 2546 Spruce Street 20 55 26th Street and 2537 Pearl Street with 101 residential units and 160 parking spaces and amenities for residences The Proposal includes 88 market rate and 13 affordable on-site Condominiums this is reviewed under case number lur 20220033

[147:01] and for this item I'm happy to introduce shovnabista our case manager for this application who will give the staff presentation thanks Chris let me just get the presentation up so she's got it up here but it's not showing up on the screens there we go good evening council members my name is shabnam bista senior planner with the planning and development services and tonight I'll be presenting on the concept plan for the papillio project which is a mixed-use development at 2504

[148:02] Spruce Street I would like to note that this is a second iteration of the concept plan based on feedback that was provided by city council Tab and planning board back in 2021. so a lot of the the materials that you see might just be a refresher and then I'll go into the um specifically what's changed and what the current proposed project is and the key issues as well that um was presented to planning board for discussion and they will be presented tonight for councils to discussion the purpose of a concept plan is to determine the general development development plan and provide specific feedback as well as identify key issues in advance of a site review submittal there's no formal action required tonight the planning board public hearing was held on November 1st 2022 and then this

[149:01] item was called the by city council as well as requested to be called up by the applicant on December 1st 2022. public notification was sent to Property Owners within 600 feet staff received two emails and there were five members I believe who spoke at the public hearing planning board in terms of the location this is uh located south of Spruce Street and North of pearl it's approximately 2.33 acres and there are currently seven buildings and some businesses located within the different Parcels on the site uh in terms of the planning framework to provide a broader a broader perspective So within the bvcp framework the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan the site is part of one of the regional centers of the city particularly the Boulder Valley Regional

[150:02] Center s are defined as generally places with potential for infill and Redevelopment as well as higher intensity compared to other established residential neighborhoods the bvrc is further defined as an area that should be pedestrian oriented as well as provide human scale design the site as you can see is located to the northwest corner of the bvrc and it's subject to design guidelines as well that was adopted in 1998. because of its unique location it's within the bbrc it's surrounded by a significant amount of personal service uses as well as retail offices and has proximity to downtown and Boulder Junction also as part of the Boulder Valley Regional Center there is a connections plan that impacts this particular site

[151:04] as you can see on the screen the two connections that impact the site are the Northwest I mean sorry north south multi-use path and the East-West secondary Street this is something that was also discussed in 2021 and it was referred to tab for their decision and recommendation by City Council on whether the applicant can remove these or amend the plan to not include and incorporate these connections plans within the concept plan so the plan you'll see today at the proposed project does not incorporate these two connections plan and I'll talk more about that during the key issues portion um the areas also Transit rich with the site located a half mile and a and a quarter mile to a lot of local bus stops as well as within a mile of two regional

[152:00] Bus facilities the site is also highly walkable and bikeable surrounded by on-street bike Lanes with an easy access to several multi-use paths as well in terms of the zoning context the site's comprehensive plane land use designation is primarily mixed use residential and that's defined as predominantly residential uses with neighborhood scale and personal service uses uh there are some fractions of the site that are mixed-use business and general business in terms of current zoning the site is zoned business Community too and in terms of the proposed rezoning um this is part of this kind of Grew From the feedback that the applicant received previously in order to maximize housing they are looking to propose a rezoning

[153:00] to mixed-use three in terms of the surrounding context there's a residential along Spruce Street in rh2 zone there's retail to the East and a four-story retail office building to the South and then in terms of what's existing within that 2.33 Acre Site there are a number of warehouses light industrial and Retail buildings with auto repair um a thrift store and furniture store and then at the northeast corner is 25 46 Spruce which is I mean you can't see me pointing but it's the mecca building that's um was determined to be eligible eligible for local Landmark designation and I'll talk about that during the key issues as well so in terms of project background the planning board public hearing was held

[154:01] September 2nd 2021 the item was then called up by City Council on September 21st of 2021 and then was presented to the transportation Advisory Board in October and lastly there is a public hearing held November 30th of 2021. City Council and then in terms of the boards and commission feedback that the Apple can received the last round of review there were sort of three main key issues that were being discussed um the first one was to address the bbcp policies regarding housing so the feedback to the applicant was to see if they can find a way to do a higher density project and more housing and more units on the site um the second one was the bvrc transportation connections plan again this was sent to tab where they discussed and determined that the the East-West secondary connection which

[155:02] would be a street connection would essentially serve as an alley and there's a ditch as well to the west of the property um and that deemed they deemed it unnecessary for circulation at this time and then in terms of The north-south Pedestrian connection tab also noted that the site is well surrounded by street bike Lanes as well as pedestrian walkways and multi-use paths so the conversation was centered more around removing these connections plan in order to maximize the units on the site and then lastly the landmarking of the mecca building the planning board feedback was to integrate some of the mecca building during the last feedback or the last Council hearing the feedback was that additional housing would be a larger Community benefit and landmarking was not necessarily um a priority at the time

[156:01] in terms of the changes made to the concept plan these are just some numbers of what's changed the applicant will also be doing a presentation and providing additional information on this but there is an increase in the number of units and these are for sale units at this time increase in number of affordable units parking height and the number of stories as well uh just to reiterate to the proposed project we'll have 101 for sale units as it stands now there's a breakdown of the different types of bedrooms um there's 13 affordable units 160 parking spaces and they are asking for a height modification as well this is just a little bit more detail on the floor plans as well as the breakdown of the the units per floor there is commercial located along Spruce Street

[157:00] and then there are three kind of Courtyards located for common open space with amenities on the second floor and then a roof deck on the fourth the applicant also provided some conceptual renderings that illustrate the building modulation along Spruce um and then the corners as well and on Spruce Street they did incorporate some of the elements of the mecca building um into the lobby as they're proposing to demo it for this specific concept plan and these are some of the elevations just to kind of look at the mass of the building it's 55 feet in height again and four stories tall the applicant is subject to community benefit requirements so they excuse me that you would need to provide additional affordable units for anything

[158:00] that's over the allowed height and the bonus units on the fourth floor additionally if the project proceeds at the for sale development this would require at least 50 percent of the permanently affordable units to be included on site moving on to the key issue so this is what was presented to planning board and I will just kind of briefly go over each one and before that I also just wanted to summarize what the planning board discussion was which was included in the memo so generally the board agreed that the rezoning would align with the city policies for additional housing and higher density in terms of the preservation of the mecca building they stated that it falls under the purview of landmarks board in terms of the height mass and scale the board agreed that massing along Spruce Street should be modified and

[159:01] changed during the site review process so the transition to rh2 which is north of Spruce Street would be a smoother transition since there are um you know one two residential one two story residential buildings so moving on to kishu one this um just asks the questions of whether additional residential density for the site should be supported through a rezoning process um kishu one and two are connected because in order to move forward with the rezoning to an me3 the applicant would need to demonstrate that the proposed rezoning is necessary to come into compliance with the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan um land use designation and so it's important to note right now the designation for this site is majority mixed use residential but then there's portions of it that's General

[160:00] business as well as makes use business so the applicant would also need to request a land use does map designation change so the entire site would be zoned to Mur so that of rezoning to me3 would be supported in those areas as well uh there is an amendment process for the land use map designation change which also has criteria including finding the change consistent with the policies as well as overall intent of the comprehensive plan and then the second part of the key issue two is just regarding the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan and whether the project is preliminarily consistent with the goals and objectives and so given the city's policy that strongly encourages new housing in an area with Transit jobs and mixed use particularly in the Boulder Valley Regional Center

[161:00] um staff leaves that this has been preliminarily met now in terms of the mecca building So based on council's prior feedback on maximizing housing the proposed concept plan shows a demo of the mecca building with elements of it incorporated into the development initially the recommendation was to potentially Landmark the building and it was potentially eligible for landmarking as well this past review planning board stance was that this um what this was a purview of landmark's board however staff and the applicant are seeking clear direction from city council tonight on whether in balancing the comprehensive plan objectives and policies the building should or should not be landmarked

[162:00] and then in terms of key issue 4 which is in regards to the height mass and scale of the proposed buildings compatibility with the area um across the street on Spruce as you can see there are um two two to um one-story homes and the me3 zoning allows 38 feet and three stories there are some within the design currently there are some wall modulations and um fourth floor that's slightly set back however additional alleviation to the massing is necessary to be more compatible with the character and provide an appropriate transition from the edge of the Regional Center business to more residential areas and then lastly key issue 5 is um a preliminary analysis of the design guidelines within the Boulder Valley Regional Center I won't go over this in detail as we are early on in the process but um this is

[163:01] something that we will be looking at in close detail during the site review process that concludes my presentation happy to answer any questions great we've got a couple we've got Bob and Matt mark thanks for that presentation um maybe this may be a question for Kurt have we calculated what the I know that all the affordable housing is not on site yeah we calculated back the envelope what the um contribution would be uh good evening Kurt fernhauer director of housing Human Services um we have I'm going to be going off top my head a little bit it's roughly um if uh if this project was to pay Simply cash and Lou I think it's um like 7.7 million if they're if they implement it as shown or half are on site the remaining cash flow gets cut in

[164:02] half um I think it was um three and a half million cut in half so um that would be the amount remaining but I can check that that's I just went directionally correct that yeah thanks and if I'm wrong um I'll let you know thank you appreciate it and then the second two questions is and it's not for you for Kurt um um this is something that I've always puzzled about that's not just for this particular project if if a developer comes in and says all right this is going to be for sale units for sale residential um how is that binding in other words so they built the building and they say you know changed my mind gonna do these rentals how is that kind of enforced and and for how long does it have to be for sale I mean could it could be for sale for a year or two and then they didn't have very good sales and so they flipped them to rentals or how does that work sure um Forest is not something we can we can do um however there is a potential of

[165:01] including it as a condition of approval when the site review gets approved and if the applicant at any point feels that they need to convert to a for rental or um or it's the it's not financially feasible to do um a for sale project then they would need to come back for an amendment so planning border Council would have a chance to kind of look at what that proposal would be do I just want to let me follow up on that so so let's say it was a built in as a condition and the sorry review approval that's for sale and so the building gets built and um certificates of occupancy get issued what's our enforcement mechanism down the road after CEOs are issued and then the developer either you know success for whatever reason I'm not going to sell these things I'm going to least summer all of them what do we what do we do is that just kind of tough tough noogies or what is there some sort of enforcement there after after CEO is

[166:00] issued sure um I think when drafting that condition of approval there would be a in Teresa correct me if I'm wrong but there would be sort of a timing Incorporated with it so it would be either prior to certificate of occupancy or um prior to issuance of building permit that some of the conditions would need to be met I don't know how you can meet those conditions yeah please you know the answer so well just I'm a little confused my memory from my time on planning board was it in any condition in your site review approval had to be required in order to bring them into compliance with the site review criteria like that was what you had to base your conditions on and my memory was that there wasn't something in the site review criteria that would allow you to say well in order to be compliant you have to have ownership units so because I I my my memories that we couldn't make a condition like that I may have that wrong but that that's my memory for my time on planning board

[167:01] uh Brad would you be able to sure yeah Kurt thank you um I'll I'll answer something slightly different to that um which relates to it so we had a similar situation at the Peloton um that project was developed with um uh rental um housing and then it went to for sale um and cash and Lewis higher than you know for uh uh for a for sale project than it is for rental so in that case they actually um four years after the project was built they had to pay additional cash and Lube back to the city so it's a bit of reverse of that but that's part of the IH ordinance um and I think what you're asking about Falls outside of the IH ordinance which simply States you know that people have choices as it as it fits however into conditions of approval

[168:02] um that's out of my league I bet we I I'm not sure how to answer that one any response to that like do I have that wrong or oh yeah I'm happy to go uh um my recollection is um similar mayor Brockett to what you described is and I think that's what we were just kind of combining those two conversations into one which is when it's about the use of the dwelling unit whether it's for sale or rental is really outside the purview of the site review process as it relates then to affordable housing in the inclusionary housing ordinance that's where there's a connection because of the use type of the unit is related to the fees uh that are charged so the fees might be different and and to be clear I'm not saying I I like that we can't make that requirement but I believe that that we are not allowed to actually make that as a condition of a site review approval so I just asked the question because I just

[169:00] wanted to go ahead um I just wanted to clarify so this was another question that did come up at planning board and the response from hella pennowick who's I don't think aligned today was that um it could be potentially condition of approval so I can kind of touch race with her and provide a response if you could get back to something that'd be helpful and um so I guess there's two questions or one is can it be a condition of approval and the second is is um so what especially if it goes the other direction maybe they overpaid for inclusion housing I guess is we're probably not going to kick money back to them if they change their minds um and so I guess I'm just trying I'm struggling with enforcement because when you say oh well if it's condition of approval it's before the co or it's before this that I'm talking about like the building's build CEO's been issued and the developer says yeah I know I told you it was going to be for sale but it's really going to be for rental and the answer may be we don't have any enforcement and if that's the answer that's finally like Aaron I'm not happy with that answer but that that's that's the answer I just want us to be really super aware of that because we got all

[170:01] excited last time about oh these are for sale units maybe they are and maybe they're not I mean they may be the good faith intention of the developer at this moment time but we should all be big boys and big girls and realize these could very well be rentals well unless you tell us there's some sort of forever enforcement mechanism and and with penalties attached which I suspect you're going to tell us there's not thanks Bob Matt well I didn't want to call a queen because there's more to say but my line of inquiry is really kind of along these lines we get a we were sort of given some options at concept or you know when it came to us about December and we're like yeah we like the one that's got more housing it's ownership affordability yeah yeah rah-rah good job thanks for listening then we get this plan good and then we hear also oh that's not going to be financially viable it may not work I I get the technical pieces of what are our mechanisms but for me it's a larger question of how how do we create the guard rails so that when we approve the

[171:02] concept of a plane we're not delivered a blimp they might both fly but they are fundamentally different and and I want to make sure that as a community we're investing our time on what we're committing to but then also the community as a whole knows what we're committing to and so I I know that's the overall process we have but I'm I don't like where this is going where we can have a switch route here where they ride the coattails of our enthusiasm of ownership all these great things and then pull the rug out and say yeah it doesn't work I I just don't like that that's a place where we can end up so I don't know what the answer is but it's really a follow-up there but I feel a bit misled at this point and I don't feel I don't feel good about that um so you know just know that we're in questions right I know and so I'm just sort of I I don't feel good so really my question is like yeah how do we not make how do we not feel the fool I guess is the question and and maybe it's really just the question of what are these mechanisms for accountability and holding to account so

[172:01] I don't know if it's a separate question but it's really just greater context to what maybe Bob and Aaron were inquiring at but goodness it don't feel good um thank you for that councilman Benjamin um uh one point of clarification is that the um any developer as they're going through the process the point where they have to the last point of making the decision on what type of or other approach towards towards affordable housing is that the issuance of building permit um so it's at the beginning of the process um in in the development and um uh so it comes the challenges that comes after these city council discussions often and we've even seen this project change um over time as you just mentioned um as the developer in the architect work into what's feasible as it relates to

[173:01] affordable housing related to the design and cost and unfortunately we've also seen that that can change even within a six-month period of time we saw Lumber spikes and you know all sorts of things that occur that impact those types of decisions um but at the point of building permit which is a long not a long time from now on this project that's when their decision would be made um under the IH ordinance I appreciate that Clarity Kurt thank you Mark um in essence I'm colloquing with both of my colleagues and I guess I'm asking the City attorney and and the deputy seed manager are you looking at this and trying to create mechanisms to do what council member Yates as requested which is find an enforcement mechanism that you know if for instance in this case we're being asked to give a height bonus

[174:03] um but if the height bonus um is not accompanied by sufficient Community benefit because the nature of the project keeps changing why should the height bonus be permanent but the the use of the property as has been described to us be semi-permanent and we've been burned before and and I think that's kind of what's what my colleagues are alluding to um we don't want to be Fooled Again uh I hear your your concern um council member Yates and mayor Pro tem Wallach I'll say in a way this Con this um conversation is premature because we're at a concept plan phase and so to call it a Switcheroo is is to say in concept they keep changing their mind well that's okay at this phase of the

[175:00] process that's okay for now I think what I hear the question is if we get down the road and this gets through all of the approvals and they don't honor their commitment what is the enforcement mechanism and I I hear that question and I'm happy to look into that and get back to council thank you can we turn to the applicant seeing no further questions we'll oh sorry I apologize Mark I thought that was your only question no um I take it landmarks has not been afforded an opportunity to weigh in on the matcha building I mean I know we have a preference for housing versus landmarking but would it not be appropriate to at least understand whether um this is a building of no consequence or the greatest treasure in you know in in North America um we we routinely

[176:01] um send projects out for analysis by uh design Advisory board by tab would it not be appropriate to at least hear from landmarks we don't have to take their advice but it would it would be nice to know whether this is something of such consequence that um uh we ought to rethink our view of getting an extra few units I'm not suggesting we won't change our minds or we'll change our minds but you know more information is better than no information and it would seem to me that that's an appropriate step to take um we'll get to comments yeah um I'll just leave it to two questions um a City attorney um how what is the definition of spot zoning I've always been under the impression

[177:00] spot zoning is not either not appropriate or illegal and I look at this very particular small zoning change and I'm wondering does that not constitute spot zoning Professor Wallach I apologize but I am not prepared for your Socratic method today I I'd actually be happy however I believe my esteemed colleague Brad Mueller who is the expert in this area can speak to this I I don't know how to follow that I might just have to fold um you know I I've always uh characterized spot zoning as more of a concept and I've seen over the years throughout my career it get both demonized and praised as is the solution all things or or the the worst thing in the world um and and I've seen jurisdictions that try to legislate it it's not a thing per se it's it's a planning concept and and

[178:02] the basic concept is that zoning as a tool and all laws are blunt tools but zoning is a tool that's designed to mitigate off-site impacts and to minimize uh incompatible use as being next to each other that's what zone districts are supposed to do and and when you get it down to a very extreme change from one intensity to another within a little area that gets characterized as spot zoning and that that is that defeats the purpose of trying to separate incompatible uses there is a lot that can be done though with design and there's a big difference between a heavy industrial next to a residential versus a medium residential to a a light light industrial for example so I I always caution kind of uh not putting too much stock in that and recognizing that the idea of incompatibility is a is a fluid concept

[179:01] it needs to be taken in context I don't know if that helped it sounded kind of professorial so a A plus okay and Brad wouldn't you say that really what we're looking at is is the comp plan and to make sure that the zoning is compatible with the company right and that's where there's this kind of chicken and egg thing you know if there's a sense that the the compatibility is there and supports the zoning then that kind of de facto means that the the comp plan also should support that and be be reflected to do that but you also have um with really your your quasi-judicial you know judging powers to say no it's the comp plan that really is is guiding what the zoning should be in this case so that that gets to the site-specific kind of nature of of the work that you do in your quasi-judicial decision making my classes are Wednesday and Friday at 11 o'clock for all who want to attend thank you I thought they were Thursdays at nine PM okay all right now uh why

[180:03] don't we move to the applicant presentation if the applicant's ready to go hello everyone this is Ali gitfar and I have with me Adam root who is the project architect go ahead just say hi hi everyone um Chris couldn't be here so instead we have um Adam with us um I I was going to show a presentation maybe I will I will flick through the um slides really quickly I think as I'm pulling that up I I gotta say that the one I just heard from through the council members is a little bit hurtful I'm not doing a Switcheroo I've been open with you guys from the beginning about the process I think that um just to reiterate um you ask that we look at the site for more density and you want it for sale

[181:00] and I agreed to do it and I did say that it was going to be a very tall hard lift and I spent more than a year a year and a half I think trying to make this plan work and have had it priced pretty accurately and gone through multiple meetings with my realtors to make sure that the numbers that we're putting into the performer are going to work for us and for the city and I've shared with you the results of it and I've also said that I'm perfectly happy to have you come in and actually see all the effort that has gone into it as a learning experience for you as it has been for us as well so the other thing I do want to make do you do want to say is that this is not a Switcheroo I've been again very open and if I had gone through this process all the way to the end and at the last minute said I wanted to do either for sale or rent or whatever at that point then it

[182:00] would be so true but I haven't done that so having said all that I will now um just quickly go through the slides because I think we all are very familiar with all the issues that are on the table but um you know we've talked about this at various points uh in the meeting and I think there was a um those reference made to a force that we're asking for fourth floor we never asked for a fourth floor the reason we have a fourth floor is because the um number of square feet that we've managed to work out that we can put on this site and that has forced us into a fourth floor and I'll let Adam explain the slide right so the the proposal to uh rezone to me3 is in service of the goal of achieving the maximum housing on the site and the the diagram on the left shows what

[183:01] you do if you only rezone to me3 but you don't add the fourth floor you can you end up with a continuous uninterrupted Street wall and these enclosed Courtyards which are very undesirable but if you do allow for the fourth floor you're allowed to have these open-sided Courtyards which we've got a lot more visual porosity into the project and does allow us to achieve the maximum square footage of housing on the site which the far allows for under me3 yeah go ahead yeah so I mean just we all aware that we're at a very conceptual level but this this slide illustrates the elevation along Spruce and some of our primary design strategies subdividing the building into numerous identifiable portions distinguishing the top distinguishing the top fourth floor from the rest of the project providing pitched roofs and as well as that open-facing courtyard in the middle of the block and as you can see this is from uh the corner of Folsom and Spruce we've taken steps to reduce the perceived scale of

[184:00] the top floor by by taking a subtraction at the corners as well as the recesses in between those separate masses if you go to the next slide you'll see the other Corner uh where on the where the mecca building exist today and we're proposing to demolish and reuse portions of it uh a community servant Cafe would stand in its place here is the uh the the lobby Pavilion which we're proposing to be centered in the in the uh the middle of this open-ended Courtyard uh so these are just some of the primary strategies that we're using to kind of make this building have a positive impact on the neighborhood this shows the top floor plan which again uh demonstrates how we're utilizing these open-sided Courtyards to provide as much openness and light and Views into and out of the project as well as recessing the top floor from the lower floors to minimize as a visual scale uh this letter to say some of the challenges we've been we've been working

[185:00] through and the final slide is really about uh the the question to councils about about right and I think um here I think the question of rental or for sale sorry this first question Is It rental or for sale is something that'd be great to talk about since it's been brought up tonight and again to make the project work I think we've already been talking about this for the past year that to have the amount of housing that you have asked for we're going to have to resort to mu3 get the extra height we're not asking for it um we have to remove the mecca building and the cross-bought connections and with that I will I'm happy to listen yeah thanks silly and Adam appreciate the the information the presentation do we have any questions for the applicant

[186:00] it looks like I got um Lauren and then Mark thanks for that presentation um could you I have a couple of questions what are the average unit sizes we're looking at for the various unit types right now that I'm I know that things are a little bit in flux but right so for the for sale unit what I can tell you is that um for the For Sale Project we averaged um 1400 square feet and if you know when I when we discovered that the project was absolutely not going to work as a for sale project couldn't get any investors on board that would take on that kind of risk and I communicate that with you guys I hired a an apartment consultant in Denver and right before Christmas they gave me the uh mix that would work

[187:02] and I shared that with you as well and that mixes at 850 square feet per unit roughly does that help yeah thank you um and just to clarify I mean I know you've discussed this a little bit already but the difficulty in making this pencil out financially as a for sale is that driven by the with the increased height needing to do 50 of the affordable on-site or would you still have issues making this pencil even if that requirement was not in place that's exactly right and even if that wasn't in place and I'm happy to let me share um with you this table I think I don't know if you

[188:00] can see it or not this is what I emailed you a couple nights ago but what it yeah there we go what it illustrates it Illustrated to us and I'm I'm trying to share that with you is that even if the me3 on the on the far left with zero affordable on site and just spending cash in lieu which um yeah you can see and I I've had to kind of mask the actual numbers and again I'm perfectly happy to share all this in my office with you live but um you can see that the profit margin at the bottom is what really drives a lot of projects and more importantly the irr and those numbers are low enough that I can't attract investors to the project and if you look at the far right hand column that's where the 36 percent IH

[189:00] that would be required on site that's 14 affordable on site and whereas the cash in lieu is um only eight dollars per square foot in this scaled version of this chart that's in reality 1.65 million dollars the loss in revenue of those 14 affordable units on site is 12 million dollars which is why that goes to the irr number tanks as does the profit margin thank you for that Clarity on that um in thinking about moving towards rentals you know you know you're saying that 850 square feet makes more sense would you be intending to keep the same square footage for the building like yeah so the intention would be to do more units yeah I think what we're saying is that we would take the same building volume

[190:00] and rework those extra units into it so that um basically nothing changes about the building the visually for the most part I think you're going to end up with more balconies and exterior elements like that different window patterns and things like that but we try and work within the same building envelope that we've been presenting so far and you know approx imately how many build or how many units you would anticipate that being sure it's 165 units um and then my last question is about the mecca building um you have that Lobby space that looks sort of like the repurposing of the mecca building is your intention right now to keep the glue lamb beams from the existing building or are we making new ones that look similar what what's the idea there well if we can reuse them we would we

[191:02] just don't know what shape they're in until we actually get to that point and if we can't then we would try and sort of take that as a design knowledge if you like to the existing building and what point do you anticipate knowing for sure whether whether you'll be able to keep them or not is that something that will be happening after the permit is issued I think we should be able to explore that before permanent is issued I think we can take a look at those beams and see if what shape they're in pretty early on I would think because an engineer would have to be comfortable with reusing them thank you that's it for my questions okay Mark um first I I want to apologize I want to apologize the comments that were made were not directed at you

[192:01] um no no it's that we have had some unfortunate experiences um with developers who were uh less reliable in their representations and it's a it's a little bit of a sore spot and we're trying to understand okay and I apologize I just got really upset about that just because I I can't I can't tell you one thing and then do something else so it's not me I can't do that and I just want to make sure make that very clear um my question is um looking at your proformas if the 101 units with 14 affordable on site is producing a three percent profit margin right which is obviously not going to be acceptable um does that mean you don't want to do that um you know I can't do any any of those scenarios that's why I'm sharing that

[193:00] with you just to say how difficult it is to make your for sale Project work and as you remember the reasons for that are far higher Insurance um during construction um higher construction standards and costs um and yeah those are the two main things and of course the IH requirement to have all these units on site kind of push the tip the scale completely over and so not all online so let me just make it very clear it's not all I age but um you know the the difference between for sale and rental for IH is quite significant um let me let me just say that if we were to do if we had the option of not having the units on site then I I each numbers are roughly the same between for rent and for sale roughly and if we're not penalized for that fourth floor

[194:02] and so in effect are you now proposing a rental with cash and loop payments or I'm not quite sure what you yeah yes that's the idea so that um I think the only way we have forward is to look at this project uh with greater density and for rent we're 100 sure we can't do the for sale unfortunately okay thank you Nicole no thank you and thank you for the presentation one of the things that I was wondering about looking at the new design and thank you so much for listening to so many of our previous comments and working to incorporate them it's around the the parking and you know a lot of those space is kind of set aside for cars I think you know we as a study we're very interested in housing people less so cars especially on such a Transit Rich area like this and so you

[195:02] know looking at your financial numbers um if if there were some um reductions in the parking for example with that um lessen your costs enough to have some on-site affordable or more units or anything like that well here's the um I guess unfortunate or unfortunate uh thing about mu3 is that the reason we get the bonus square footage is that we have more parking so we've created a building whose first floor is entirely cars because that's the area that we can take to increase far it's kind of a perverse thing that we have in our codes but that's the rules that we're playing by and give if we do move forward with the rental model we'd actually be asking for a variance on parking because me3 requires one spot per unit we have 165 units and 161 parking spaces

[196:02] uh seven of those spaces need to be reserved for commercial space so in other words we're going to be short somewhere around 11 or 12 spaces if you like thank you I appreciate that that was a good question okay thanks Ali in um I I share Mark's uh statement you guys have been forthright and you guys have done a lot of transparency I think it's the situation um that we find ourselves a bit frustrated with so so know that and know that we hopefully can continue to to work with you to try to find a way to make this work um so my question is really Center on you know really trying to figure out where this where Nexus is with rental and ownership in particular you know one is a is a mix of those two even viable

[197:00] so that's that's one question and I see you shaking your heads the answer so you say no and then you have to go one way or the other unfortunately and is that a market decision or is that a Prohibition that we have in our city that limits a mix it's more about um getting financing I think it's it'll be I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very difficult to get financing for a mix like that if it's one building if it was two building it'd be a different story okay um and and really sort of where the follow-up comes into is in terms of trying to achieve ownership and this question is to you and also perhaps a holistic one for our community as a whole is are there any city codes or ordinances as you're looking through this that you look at you go yeah if if those were changed we could make this pencil out for ownership um and so that's a question because again I think there's some that value having more ownership in this community and I want to know really are we in our own way or is are we talking about

[198:01] Market forces that are prohibiting uh this goal from being achieved I would say that market forces are definitely the larger piece of default but if you look at the IH code the way it's it's just set up it doesn't make sense because we really want to encourage for sale condos and you know there's there's this huge increase in in how that works against a developer and so the all the all the forces are pushing us towards rental and not for sale and yes part of that is is the IH component that I know that we all are aware of it and Kurt is aware aware of it as is Michelle and it's hopefully something that can be fixed quickly so that we can turn this around but you know the issue is that in our state those defects laws are really onerous

[199:02] and really forces us to pay through the notes for insurance I think our insurance costs are at least three times for for sale versus a rental and construction costs are enormously higher I think the you know to build stick framed over a concrete Podium for a for rent project versus an all concrete and steel building obviously there's a huge difference in that and we've talked about that in the past year or so I I appreciate your answers to that so thank you okay seeing other questions we can go to the public hearing we've got two people signed up to speak uh both of them are virtual um each of them will get three minutes to speak and they are Lynn Siegel and Rebecca Bach so we will start with Lynn well what we don't want here and if I get unclear at all please stop me

[200:00] immediately sure is is another fruit house okay that's what no one wants to say Don Altman no one wants to say Michael bosma you know but those are the guys at 311 that pulled off the the thing that you're having to deal with Ollie you know because you get the bad rap from that but you know developers in town should get together and and not violate people or they're going to have trouble later on um my feeling is this shouldn't you should go back to version one just go back to version one you know it's not a you're not gonna make this you know you can't create you know for sale housing on new bill you know if you want to if you want to get for sale housing take some old crappy condos in Boulder and sell those to people but this is just like a a shot

[201:04] you know like dreaming you know it's not it's not gonna happen um so like don't waste More Concept plans and stuff just go back to the first and then my thought also really is yes this is Boulder Valley uh uh Regional Center but you know what for me hoshimotors was everything and now it's way out and I ride my bike mostly I drag my car with my bike if I could to take it out there but that's kind of hard to do you know when it's way out now east of town so I want my services close into town you know Boulder Electric gone you know where do I I I somebody stole my uh uh catalytic converter so I'm not just hauling my steam cleaner you know to to Billy's

[202:01] Boulder Electric I got to go to Denver somewhere no I'm not going to do it you know and and you know and then we have meth in the bathrooms at the library okay this is it and this is what you're saying Ollie you know you can't make this happen you've got to make a certain profit you know you're dealing in Aspen stuff you know and you're in Boulder and and and we've got you know this really bad homeless problem that now what are they gonna do tear out all the drywall too in the library that wasn't even discussed tonight you know these are Big when you got a meth house you've got to strip it down to the frame basically don't or maybe you even have to demo the whole frame too and that's what happens when there's this greater wealth dispersion and then when you get the 850 square feet of course you got a parking space for for each one then you've got too many you know then you're sure and your time is

[203:01] up but thank you for your testimony and now we have Rebecca Bach foreign thank you can you hear me yes my name is Rebecca Bach and I am the business owner at 2546 Spruce Street I rent the entire building and it houses one of Boulder's last locally created female owned and operated Fitness Concepts called Mecca Fitness Mecca is not a national chain it was founded in Boulder specifically to address the fitness needs of this unique community we have operated in Boulder for over 10 years and I employ over 20 people I dare say we are one of the most loved local Fitness Brands left in this town that survived the pandemic my building was surveyed in an architectural inventory and recommended for designation as an architectural landmark the city planning staff recommended finding a way to preserve the building clients always comment to me on how

[204:01] beautiful and unique the mecca building is you should drive by and check it out and I welcome you to join in one of our classes preserving this significant and historic building would decrease the number of condo units by approximately four to six housing units per the developer this is within a complex of nearly 100 Mercury units my business employs 20 people and has served the community for over 10 years I know I'm biased here but I don't think that is a good trade and I'm sure these units could be redistributed elsewhere frankly this project will make my business homeless commercial real estate that is accessible to the population's Daily needs has easy access and good parking you have to have good parking is nearly impossible to find I started looking over a year ago and so far I've not found any suitable space without a good central location access to lots of parking we can't survive part of the reason space is getting so scarce is because of projects like these commercial space is being torn down for

[205:02] a million dollar condos it seems to be happening everywhere in Boulder we can pay Market rent but when space is available it often goes to National chains I remember when this quirky Town supported small local businesses that is the boulder I fell in love with I'm afraid we are headed quickly in the direction of a generic town that could be anywhere in the U.S that is filled with nothing but a sea of chains to sum it up Boulder is a special place I've lived here since the early 90s it's beautiful and vibrant continuing to tear down local businesses to build pricey condos is not a direction to keep the flavor of Boulder alive it is not making Boulder more diverse this is the wrong move thank you for your time and consideration thank you Rebecca okay so that brings the public hearing to a close so we'll bring it back to council for discussion so what I'd ask is if we could get the key issues put up

[206:00] and so maybe we can tackle those one by one but hopefully efficiently as the hours now almost 9 30 and in fact actually we need to do a time check on that basis so it is 9 30 um we have one significant item left so ideally we would give our feedback on this item pretty quickly it's important that we give good feedback but also hopefully we can do it pretty quickly in order to finish at our agenda tonight we'll check in again after this item is over okay so we've got we've got five key issues and let's just tackle them one by one here in the order that they've got them so the first one is should additional residential density for the site be supported through the rezoning process there's proposing the mu3 Zone which allows for additional density based in park on our feedback from last time quick thoughts or thoughts on this one dude dude we just want to maybe do a straw poll if people have a generally do people feel that they're comfortable

[207:01] with this I'm getting head knots okay so it looks like yep Mark did you want to say something yeah um yeah I guess this is a question for the developer the staff memo and the planning board had some thoughts about reallocating the mass of the building in terms of Spruce Street versus other uh streets are you planning to do that or or not actually I think we're going to get to that under number four which is about the height mass and scale and I'm going to wait okay um okay so it looks like we're generally comfortable in number one number two do we feel like the concept plan is broadly consistent with the goals objectives and recommendations of the company comprehensive plan I'm getting thumbs up okay so that's pretty clear um and then staff is really looking forward to some concrete feedback on the preservation of the mecca building as part of this project

[208:01] so we might could use a couple comments here Rachel I'm sorry it's kind of a question flowing from the last speaker's comments at the public hearing I I think I recall when we were redeveloping the hill hotel we put a closet that required um some help with relocating businesses that were being displaced have we looked at that for this can we do that because that I don't know that I'm committed to the building although I am actually a big fan of that style of architecture so you know I could go either way really but um I I am very uh sensitive to what the the business owner was saying and would like to not displace her business if we can find a way there or or if she's displaced to help her you know be able to afford a new place I guess in moving right moving expenses do we have options as part of this process to request or require relocation assistance

[209:00] um I think since this is a concept plan it's um it's a fair discussion but it's something we would get into with the applicant during the site review process so I guess we give feedback at this point rather than requirements so my feedback would be let's um try and figure out a way to make that tenant whole through relocation Assistance or whatever else might be needed man uh I get yeah with few decks I'm I'm less beholden to wanting to keep the building as it is in its current location like that prohibits I think what's trying to be built there but I would really love to see elements of it you either directly materials utilized that cool group the glue lamps that was mentioned or at least those interesting Design Elements sort of folded into the design which I think has already sort of been done in a few spaces but I'd love to not see it evaporate into The Ether so there's still some elements left for us to enjoy um in one form or another going forward okay I'll call myself and then Mark um yeah so I agree I I don't feel like the building itself needs to stay there I

[210:00] like how your initial plans show Design Elements both actual physical pieces the building potentially or at least the design elements from it I think please continue in that direction I think that's really positive but I was going to bring up what Rachel said as well about relocation assistance um I feel for Ms back back and the difficulties there so I I feel like um assisting that business with relocation would be the right thing to do as part of the process market and Bob now for the reasons stated earlier I do think having landmarks look at it would be useful um but having said that I am also very reluctant to displace a business with 20 employees that is local and that is important to our community and I think it is just too easy to run over those businesses and simply say you know vaya con dios too bad for you it's part of what makes us vibrant and

[211:00] different and I'm very you know I would like to see all efforts made either to accommodate this business or to relocate it with the assistance of the applicant and or the city again Bob yeah I'm going to concur with my colleagues um while it's a beautiful building and I like it too Rachel um I don't want to stand in the way of four to six or seven housing units and so I think the the developer and The Architects have done a good job of trying to incorporate some of those elements in if they can do a little bit more that'd be great um and I also support relocation assistance for the um tenant in the mecca building I want to disclose that Rebecca and I used to work together at another company so I'm not saying that because we used to be we're colleagues I'm saying it because it's the right thing to do okay so I'm hearing consensus here but Lauren and then in my opinion for the mecca building I really strongly support repurposing parts of it um but not recreating

[212:01] um if if those parts don't work out it doesn't seem to make sense to me that we like disneyify it and keep it in perpetuity I think you use the word homage which I kind of like all right yes just one other disclosure I have previously spoken to Rebecca on other matters um and I just wanted everyone to know that thank okay is the height mass and scale the proposed buildings compatible with the character of the area so Mark you might start because you had a thought here yeah um both staff and planning board recommended a shifting of the massing um to make it a little more Humane on Spruce Street and I think they were looking at Pearl Street as a better location for some of that can you accommodate any of those concerns a question for the applicant yes I think the um what um shares Atkins rockmore has come

[213:01] up with in terms of a plan on massing they try to be very um careful about the mass on spruce tree and the reason for the way it's been set up is that there are the courtyards that face South will have more units that face South and so in order to flip the building what we're saying is that the units would all would more more the units two thirsty units would have North light versus South light so that's the downside but you know the the concept of the building itself I think is I think it's a brilliant one I think they've done a great job of that and I would urge you to think about that possibility um since it was endorsed both by planning board and staff uh I think that's something you might want to give serious consideration to okay I'll call on myself here I I think that you've done some good work on that North Side to break up the mess like you have

[214:00] the courtyard in the middle it's the lobby entrance there which looks good there's some step backs on the fourth story and I understand why more people would want to have south facing units right there's just going to have a higher quality of life so I probably wouldn't suggest that flipping of the two Courtyards to the north but if there are any additional moves that you can make in this direction to relieve the massing on the North side I think that would be positive so I think just I would continue to work on that as you move forward to site review I think it's possible to take those areas of that are the negatives on true Street meaning the ones that are intended to feel as though they're more in Shadow or set back to actually increase that setback Dimension so that there is more relief on Spruce Street yeah okay would you agree yeah very good further thoughts on this Lauren yeah I agree sort of with what you suggested well Aaron just brought up that as this continues to be developed I think that the you know just continue to look at ways to break down the mass a

[215:01] little bit more on that Spruce Street side as you continue to refine it and I think that that would be sufficient for me okay Jared I agree with you too you you yeah I don't think I think the lighting for the people that are going to live there is actually important and to ask them to live in the North darkness in a small unit uh right 850 square feet now is is asking a lot and so I'm going to agree with you Aaron and Lauren so are people comfortable with this feedback that we've given so far good okay so I think that's the answer on four and then number five does the concept plan preliminarily meet the bvrc design guidelines and connections plan it's probably a little early for the design guidelines but I think are we comfortable with the changes to the connections plan that have been proposed tab like to them are we okay with these sure okay then I got thumbs up on that

[216:00] uh so that covers our key issues do anybody have any extra final thoughts that weren't covered by this or are we good yeah Nicole I just had a question getting back to the parking um because Lau seemed a little I don't know if you were just excited to see a new face or you seemed a little interested by this idea but you know one of the things I'm thinking about is um the housing stock we're going to need in 25 years when our population is significantly older right we're going to be looking for kind of more smaller units and things like that I'm just curious um from my colleagues really would anybody be interested or open to a special ordinance um if Ali could reduce the parking and get us more housing units and I don't know if that's even possible but I'm just I'm curious from colleagues if that's something that would be of interest could we potentially reduce parking given or had an important future with

[217:01] less cars I'm pretty sure I read Ali's notes that uh to make for people to buy units they really do want a place to put their car even if they don't use it so I don't think it's something I would agree to just because there is winter here and people do have a car even if it's just one and so I think that's asking a lot for older people to not have a car in the winter um well I'll just yeah go ahead Ali I was just going to say that um if we do go down the rental at 165 units and the number there'd be 154 spaces for those 165 units is the way it would work out so we're already kind of we don't have enough parking spaces for the unit account that has been recommended well I'll just call myself to Nicole's question I mean I I feel like the having

[218:01] the in almost the entire first floor would be parking is an inefficient use of the the space so I'd be open into looking at potentially a bigger parking reduction uh so it's worth exploring as the project moves forward I would just say yeah Lauren but the issue right is that you need the square footage the amount of square footage in the parking to get the amount of square footage of residential similar to what we had at Macy's right so it would require a special ordinance for reduction in parking square footage as opposed to like when they're doing the additional units that's just a parking reduction on the unit count and so I think it seems and I could be wrong but I would imagine we have broad support for the parking reduction based on unit count but I think the question is is there any support for a special ordinance to reduce the square footage of parking and keep the residential area the same

[219:02] thanks for articulating that Lauren yes and and which I understand and I guess I might say to that specific point like it's probably not worth it to remove five parking spots but if you felt like there were a significantly more valuable use of the first floor for part of the first floor and you feel like you could Implement a strong Transportation demand Management program to accommodate some fewer cars it might be worth considering to your specific point yeah and I agree I would be open to considering it but I'm not sure what it gets us at this point yeah so something some mixed feedback there any other final thoughts Jenny yes yes just wanted to say as I was hearing all my colleagues make their comments I just wanted to say I just wanted to thank Ally for um the level of Engagement all throughout this process I have seen he's

[220:01] reached out he sent email to us he invited us to in meetings to also look at the plan with him so I really appreciate the details and also engaging all of us into this process so at least I've been very engaged so I really appreciate it thank you thank you Lauren and I just wanted to check in is there any other questions that you would like that would be helpful for us to answer as you move forward um I think that um our next step is to go and try go for the results so that we're comfortable as we continue to develop the plans and spend more money on Adam here and we're we're heading the right direction so if I think I've heard from your comments that that everybody's in support of the mu3 upsonic is that is that this case yep that was key issue number one we had

[221:00] thumbs up right okay well I appreciate that great um staff do you need anything else from us you get we feel like we've gone through the issues yeah thank you great and then Ali sounds like you've gotten the feedback that you need so I have and I appreciate I'm sorry I got upset at the comments that were made that were General we spent so much time I put so much heart and effort into this that that was a little bit disheartening to hear I thought it was against us but I understand okay no no worries at all so I think that wraps us up on this item for now and thanks everybody for your your work on this and we'll look forward to the next iterations thank you thank you very much thank you all right so another another time check it's 9 40. we have one thing scheduled for approximately 60 minutes are we game for it yep good no it's not okay so let's let's do it uh Elisha

[222:01] all right sir thank you our next item on tonight's agenda is item number six Matters from the city manager 6A is the shared micro Mobility update related to e-scooter pilot program evaluation great job so uh Chris I'll turn it to you to hand off to the appropriate staff I am happy to uh for our last item of the evening uh we have our interim director of Transportation Natalie Stiffler as well as uh Transportation planner DK who uh is here for a little while longer for us but uh he's pulling up the presentation and then we'll Dive Right In here so DK is this going to be your swan song at the city council okay well we look forward to one last DK presentation

[223:01] here at the city of Boulder last eight years and fill out fun things that's fun okay there we go so anyway I've really enjoyed my time here thank you for working with me over the years absolutely okay let me see here bear with me I've got a little bit of a cold that I'm coming over so you're going to get the very white Voice tonight hope that's okay okay too much fun all right all right well good evening Council I am DK senior Transportation planner and it's great to be back with you all this evening we have a lot of information to share with you regarding the key findings from the shared e-scooter evaluation report as well as some preliminary next steps to formalize the program in 2023 we look forward to addressing any questions following this

[224:00] presentation before we jump in to the details of the evaluation report it's important to revisit the overall goal the shared micro Mobility Program which consists of both e-bikes and e-scooters our goal is to provide safe Equitable and sustainable forms of transportation that improve quality of life provide connections to Transit and key destinations and replace motor vehicle trips to reduce greenhouse gas emissions before we initiated the charity scooter pilot program staff identified several criteria by which we would measure the efficacy of the program all these criteria were evaluated during the pilot program but with a special emphasis on safety and sustainability as these criteria were and still are of very high importance and here's where we are in terms of the overall shared e-scooter evaluation process in 2020 city council directed

[225:00] staff to include e-scooters in the shared micro Mobility Program but in the limited service area east of 28th Street with the intention to test e-scooters and determine if they are in fact a good fit for bowler since then we've selected a vendor lime who's with us tonight through request for proposal process and on August 17 2021 we launched the pilot program staff has collected data and Community input over a one-year period and we've shared the key findings with several Community stakeholders over the past few months following City council's input tonight will finalize the proposed next steps for the program and begin to incorporate any changes this year okay now let's turn our attention to the key findings from the charity scooter evaluation report since the start staff has been observing the operational aspects of the program and has been a mixed it's been a mix of both good and bad results on one hand the charity scooters have been proven to be a new convenient form of

[226:01] transportation for people to get to work school and to shop and run errands on the other hand these scooters have had a negative impact on people also using sidewalks and multi-use paths and particularly those people with disabilities the next few slides will further explore what we've been hearing who's using e-scooters today and some general utilization statistics this past September the city of Boulder administered a questionnaire and over 1 000 people responded we summed up the major themes we've heard from this questionnaire a lime customer questionnaire and numerous inquirerable reports as well as direct feedback to staff over the year in addition to the issue of impeding sidewalks and multi-use paths people have also witnessed these scooters abandoning creeks and ditches observed unsafe riding behaviors and have expressed concerns that the unorganized parking of e-scooters have added clutter to many neighborhoods

[227:01] but there's also an appreciation for charity scooters as they provide a new alternative to driving and are considered a more convenient form of transportation and quite frankly they're fun following this first round of community engagement staff package what we heard over the course of the pilot program and shared it with several boards commissions and Community stakeholder organizations listed here on the slide generally speaking stakeholders expressed support to expand the charity scooter system Citywide and many Envision these scooters as part of a comprehensive multimodal transportation system some of their concerns remain consistent with the feedback we've initially heard in terms of improperly parked e-scooters blocking sidewalks potential conflicts with pedestrians and the desire to keep improving safety so today lime has over 40 000 unique

[228:02] customers in the boulder Market alone their customers are in the average age are the average age of 31 years old and most of them live in households earning less than the medium income level this could be attributed to a high number of college students using the program there also seems to be an equal split of people enjoying the recreational value of e-scooters and those people using e-scooters for utilitarian purposes okay now let's look at some of the general stats at the start of the program 200 e-scooters were deployed through a demand base cap formula live now has 300 e-scooters operating in East Boulder a demand-based cap helps to regulate the overall number of scooters in a market ensuring there is sufficient supply for people wishing to use an e-scooter for their Journey over the course of the pilot program 115 000 trips regenerated equaling nearly 118 000 miles traveled and as you can see e-scooter trips are

[229:00] generally short about one mile we estimate that 25 of e-scooter trips displace motor vehicle chips this estimation is based on a statistically valid survey administered by lime in 2019. the resulting greenhouse gas savings is approximately 26 000 pounds which is equivalent to about 1300 gallons of gasoline consumed as for safety through the review of CU Boulder and city of Boulder police records our data shows that there were four crashes involving moderate to severe injuries in all four cases the injured person was transported to the hospital via ambulance and because safety is such an important Criterion let's take a deeper dive our report examines City and University crash records only that said we've also been coordinating with Boulder Boulder Community Health's trauma unit and unfortunately they did not have a system

[230:01] in place to track shared e-scooter crashes in 2022 however this is something they are planning to track in 2023 in conjunction with the state of Colorado so that will be a good source of data to compare our crash records to frankly based on the early National charity scooter crash data we honestly thought there would be we'd see more frequent and more severe shared executor crashes but we didn't we think this is due to several contributing factors one the durability of the e-scooters has greatly improved since 2018. more people have become from number two more people have become familiar with these scooters based on experiences elsewhere the city of Boulder has a robust and maintained network of walk and bike infrastructure and finally most drivers do have a greater awareness of vulnerable Road users users due to Boulders already high number of people walking biking and scooting that said operational challenges still remain for

[231:00] people walking and for people with disabilities using sidewalks and multi-use paths and although no crashes have been recorded between people using Shady scooters and pedestrians during the pilot program there's there's still a perceived risk which could lead to people choosing not to use these facilities due to fear of getting hurt foreign look at mode shift as I mentioned earlier we used a 25 figure to estimate mode shift for motor vehicle vehicles to an e-scooter but it's clear from the responses in the questionnaire that shared e-scooters may be displacing more motor vehicle chips in fact nearly half of the e-scooter chips appear to have done so that said active Transportation ships are also impacted nearly 30 percent of respondents said they would have walked if an e-scooter was not available it's evident that

[232:00] e-scooters provide a faster means to get to a destination over walking which hints at the convenience and efficiency factors that e-scooters do offer we also ask people where they normally ride in these scooter bike lanes and multi-use paths are very popular and some people indicated sidewalks staff wanted to know why people are riding these scooters on the sidewalk since it's illegal unless there is no adjacent bike facility in the street then they may do so but the number one reason why people don't want to ride in the street in the bike lane is because they are fearful of vehicular traffic vehicular speeds and also traffic volume they're looking for more protective facilities like protected bike lanes and right now some sidewalks offer that protection okay now let's shift our attention uh to overall utilization we also examined utilization in other identified zones within the city like employment centers

[233:00] CU bullers East campuses however for the sake of time denial I will not be covering those areas in tonight's presentation but if any questions come up regarding those areas we are prepared to speak to those okay this is an interesting map the heat Maps represent all routes traveled with an East Boulder service area and as you can see e-scooters have penetrated all parts of East Boulder and they have been ridden on nearly every street and multi-use path the dark purple Corridor running north south is 30th Street and here's a look at trip starts the dark purple polygons Decay High activity levels and as you can see all Focus areas are in these zones if I showed you a trip ends meet map sorry trip ends map it would look very much similar to this map in that most trips are under one mile 29th Street mall is a major destination indicating Shady scooters May induce

[234:01] some economic activity connecting people to goods and services there's also a high number of trips being taken between CU Boulder campuses and to the 28th Street East Boulder boundary to reach the main campus the inclusion of racial Equity considerations has been rooted in the development of the overall share micro-mobility program and was integrated into the e-scooter pilot program objectives and scope of work as part of the request for proposal process to select an e-scooter vendor in early 2021. a stipulation of the city services agreement with Lyme requires Lyme to provide charity scooter accessibility to committee members of traditionally underserved Community neighbor underserved neighborhoods there are five racial Equity areas identifying the East Boulder service area and being Orchard Grove San Juan Del Centro La Vista and Parkside Villages and San Lazaro

[235:01] in total there were 9 370 trips starts stemming from the racial equities area limes affordability program called lime access has experienced somewhat low participation in the first year of operation this may be due to participants unwillingness to share personal and financial data with a private entity as staff approaches program formalization in 2023 staff will continue to ensure that racial Equity remains a central consideration of ongoing program improvements staff will focus on increasing participation in limes affordability program and reaching out to service providers and community-based organizations to amplify the availability of this assistance and refine its offerings based on feedback from communities of need okay so before we transition to the last part of the presentation and share staff's proposed next steps let's take a

[236:00] quick look at how lime and B cycle are working together this is fascinating combined b-cycle and lime have 600 shared Vehicles operating in Boulder 300 e-bikes and 300E scooters together they've generated 513 000 shared micro Mobility trips during the pilot program time frame equating to approximately 817 700 vehicle miles travel this result surpasses the city's shared macro Mobility Program objective to generate 440 000 trips in 2023 and we are on track to achieve the remaining objectives by next year it's evident that charity scooters operating alongside charity bikes work together to complete the city's micro-mobility program and it's making progress toward achieving Transportation the transportation master plan goal of Shifting trips away from motor vehicles and reducing greenhouse gas emissions

[237:04] okay I promise this is the final section of tonight's presentation the key findings from the evaluation report and Community input to date have informed or preliminary set of proposed next steps to guide the transition from the pilot phase to a formal program okay let's begin here are the initial program areas we think comprise the foundation of our next phase for the charity scooter program we're exploring service area expansion mandatory designated parking zones improve safety efforts transportane Transportation demand management tactics to increase ridership specific racial Equity action items to optimize the program for disadvantaged community members and finally ways in which we can use collected fees to support the program moving forward expanding the program Citywide is is a proposed next steps but to do so in a manner that exercise strategic and coordinated approach with stakeholders and builders most sensitive areas such as Pearl Street Mall and

[238:01] University Hill staff will also continue coordinating with CU Boulder as they deem the appropriate steps necessary to continue expansion on cu's Main Campus these identify Dismount zones for downtown University Hill were recently adopted by city council during an update to the boulder revised code in 2019. this may provide an initial roadmap to create a restricted riding area for e-scooters and to address many of the concerns associated with improperly parked e-scooters in sensitive zones like Pearl Street Mall staff is proposing the designated designation of mandatory designated parking zones consisting of both on and off Street signed and marked facilities coordination with stakeholders on these locations will be imperative to the success of the strategy and this next slide provides an example of what these designated parking areas may look like

[239:00] so here we have two examples one in C Boulder's main campus and then another one Parky Square which is in the city right away near East Boulder campus both are using paint one has also used post to demarcate the designated parking area the designated parking areas are also created through geofencing technology and so that the ride cannot be completed until the scooter enters that zone then the ride may be ended the user may and the ride okay safety safety obviously is Paramount and we believe that next steps will improve we'll continue to improve safety and existing operational challenges I'd like to highlight just a few first most importantly we we're going to eliminate impacts to people with disabilities on sidewalks and multi-use paths we want a creative culture of safety and courtesy in our multi-use path system through signing and marketing and safety education efforts

[240:00] and we want to ramp up safety education safety education messaging through special events and social media campaigns from a TDM perspective there's great potential to integrate memberships for people living and working within three of the city's General Improvement districts as well as student membership program with CU Boulder and possibly naropa and in terms of racial Equity there's more work in coordination to be done to optimize a program for people living in traditionally under certain neighborhoods such as San Lazaro San monocentro and Orchard Park through continued coordination with the city's connectors and residence program we aim to remove barriers to access Lyme's affordability program and increase overall utilization stemming from all racial Equity zones in Boulder the city has been collecting license and

[241:02] pro-ri fees and to date has amassed over twenty thousand dollars from shared e-scooter operations combined with revenue from B Cycles license and per chip fees the city will determine the appropriate expenditures to support and Advance the overall shared micro Mobility Program okay let's Circle back to where we were where we are in the process and you know following tonight's discussion will fold council's feedback into our overall next steps to refine the program these steps will will be implemented over 2023 and will continue to coordinate with affected stakeholders and monitor and evaluate the program over time to ensure program optimization particularly in the way of safety and sustainability so in closing here's a question for Council to help simulate tonight's discussion and thank you very much for your time thanks so much for that DK and I just helped out so are the lime folks in the in the audience have you all been here

[242:01] since six o'clock yes yes I hope you've enjoyed our meeting [Laughter] okay good I I hope you're getting paid overtime so anyway thanks for being here uh questions first staff before we give feedback Rachel Matt Laura I do have a couple questions and I have to scroll through here to find them um so on the serious injuries column it looked like there were four serious injuries two were severe head injuries um and then you know I read the crashes off hasn't happened because of human behavior and we're trying to make it more um safe but did we do uh a root cause analysis it looked like some of it was speed related and I I just are we doing everything we can like having investigated those specific crashes in our town to figure out if we needed to make any changes with every crash that occurs um particularly when there's severe

[243:00] crashes we do in analysis to figure out how and why that happened we work closely with PD on those and but did it did anything cause any of those accidents that's creating a change in what we want to do going forward I guess unfortunately um one of the crashes involved inebriation so is behavioral and then the other was loss of control the sidewalk and um the person when they fell hit their head okay well the the inebriation one maybe gets to my next question which is I I saw that we want to expand hours maybe past 11 for service industry workers I think is that is that just for because I think we were pretty intentional about like we're gonna cut it off at hours when people might be most likely drinking how will we no like why how is it going to be just service workers who are going after 11. we do plan to maintain that curfew that we have today for the general population okay and on the back end the technology

[244:00] side there's a way in which we can through their memberships factor in that capability for people who have special permission to use scooter okay that's actually go ahead Rachel well like let's say Lauren and I go get a beer after this and you know we let's say we were service workers and then we could could how how will we be educating people on like that doesn't you still can't drink and use the scooter or like we don't want anybody using them inebriated ideally right that's correct yeah yeah so even if it's a service worker who gets off at 11 heads out okay hopefully they're ready to go home by that point hopefully um and then uh last question is just in the neighborhoods like we pretty routinely have a couple um scooters on my street and and they're often there for extended periods and I'm looking at the this spot in in a neighborhood Park East Square where you've designated a street like how many neighborhoods will that happen for or what are we doing in terms

[245:00] of the designated geofenced spots where you know it is obstructing when they're on the sidewalk for General neighborhood people getting around how are we going to do that like not in the areas that are designated you know that are easy to geofence such as Boulder Junction but like on just random streets right so a lot has to do with the use like where the where are the hot zones where people are picking up the screws and chopping them off most and so we'll try to choreograph that data that we have today with where how people are using them with where we would locate these new stations and make them visible for people so a lot of the neighborhoods that we'll see will have these pop up if you will designated areas where people can drop off the scooter but essentially we want to forego the ability just to drop off a scooter anywhere and so the frequency of these is going to be really important with the success of this program so that there's enough locations that people have an

[246:00] opportunity to drop them off well but it like I assume that what's happening in my neighborhood is people are picking him up on the perimeter of of Cu and then driving the full mile to their house and there's not going to be an easy place along Thunderbird drive to to park one so like but if you got a one-off doing it pretty much every day how are we going to get those out of people's way so there is a there is a trade-off there can a convenience trade-off to some degree but it's working pretty well with B cycle that's a doc system and they're seeing I mean six times as many trips on e-bikes today so although they're but they're not leaving the e-bikes like in along Thunder but they wouldn't in future they're shifting to that dollar right so it'll be less convenient but you can't do that anymore okay yes you won't you won't be able to do that on the other side either that's correct yeah okay all right thanks uh Nick Natalie was just clarifying that

[247:01] if you don't bring your e-scooter back to a designated parking Zone then use the the clock is still running on the on your wallet if you will until you check that sucker back into the but then those people also won't be able to use it because they're if we don't have a spot where they can park it within a block radius we're losing I mean that person rides it every day that's that person's gonna put the miles back into the greenhouse gas emissions which we don't want either can I ask a follow-up question are we would we be receptive to feedback like if somebody says you know I'd love to use one of these but the nearest one is a half a mile away absolutely would we say well let's look at a spot that's a quarter of a mile away or tenth of a mile away yeah this is going to be an organic process by which we roll This designated parking area out and so we're not going to nail it for the first time but it's going to evolve over time to figure out where those hot zones are where people want to check out an e-scooter I mean we get the

[248:01] fact that we want to maximize the convenience but that over convenience factor has unfortunately a negative impact on people who want to use sidewalks and so it's blocking sidewalks particularly with people with disabilities and so we're kind of up against these trade-offs and but I think it can be managed in a manner that addresses like you said mayor those locations where there's demand yeah I'll just add it's similar to B cycle today I mean it took us a number of years to get to fine-tuning those locations and what makes sense for people and so I think we're going to have to take people's feedback and it'll be a bit iterative um over the coming year that said we we do plan to maintain the dockless capability at some of the activity centers in the city so major shopping centers like 29th Street Mall um Baseline baseball you know shopping area those particular areas will still

[249:00] have a dockless capability so you can pick it up drop it off any anywhere you like on that property thanks for the presentation DK thank you Matt um so uh find it kind of interesting that um with Miles traveled it's almost a full round trip to the moon and back so I think that's uh that's pretty cool um my question since uh goes around sort of what are uh I didn't really see in here so I'm curious are there estimates of what the 2020 with the expansion what these 2023 sort of metrics would be in terms of trips and distance traveled and any of those pieces so I'm just kind of wondering like what or is there what what level of growth would we see to these numbers right if it's 400 000 number of trips for for e-bikes are we looking at double triple I'm sort of just wondering what is that estimate for with given the expansion a lot of the numbers will still be will need to be worked out depending on where the demand is but if we double the fleet and

[250:00] because of the greater frequency or the greater accessibility throughout the city we would see more trips taking place to access Origins and destinations so even though we'd be doubling the the number of scooters number of devices within the community we could eat possibly double or even triple the amount of greenhouse gas savings because of increased induced trips so that non-linear growth is good that's a good segue and you mentioned greenhouse gases that was going to be my next question is do we have a way of estimating because I think we saw what a roughly 50 percent of folks writing it said they were doing this in place of riding a vehicle so that tells me there's got to be a way to formulize greenhouse gas reductions in regards to what our climate goals are and so I'm wondering has that been done and is there a way to fold that in and how tangible is that greenhouse gas reduction with regards to you know directly folding that into our climate goals it's very it's very doable and we've actually been in contact with climate initiatives and a lot of the stuff also in conjunction with the

[251:01] Electric Mobility work plan so trying to fold that element into this overall project too because that relates back exactly back to greenhouse gas emissions so to have the benefits greenhouse gas benefits that we've seen and then projecting into the future what we could see is um is underway all right thank you thank you thank you um you talked about having geo-fencing for parking and then I know we also have like where we're allowed to ride them currently as we expand it seems like there might be areas where lower speeds make sense can we do geofencing for Speed requirements yes we can right now the the speed limit is 15 miles per hour that's for both e-bikes and e-scooters but if there's a certain area of town where we want people to go slower so let's say we want you know they're coming up hold their Creek path they're coming through Civic Center Park and we want them to go eight we can

[252:02] geofence that large area so that they can slow the scooter down and only go eight miles per hour in those higher you know pedestrian congested areas thank you um so will we be kind of collecting data and looking at where that might make sense as we move forward absolutely you know you know this program most definitely is organic and will evolve um over time the optimization um you just don't jump over it next day and you're there it's going to take time to refine it so it'll get better and better thank you um my other question is sort of about the affordability and you talked about you know working with Community connectors and sort of discussing with people some of the hurdles to that might we also look at how the program itself is structured and if there are ways for us to not require people giving personal information to a private

[253:02] company or some of the things that are making people uncomfortable like can we come up with a different mechanism that allows like you were talking with businesses how you know they could keep track of employment and use that for hours that people are allowed to ride could we say if you're in the affordable housing program you know that you automatically get this reduced rate and that doesn't require you to enter a lot of personal information yeah we'll need to talk about that more with Lyme as they or their provider and you know they have a terms of use contract that they have with each individual Rider and so having some of that information and having them signed a waiver is key and then also the requirements for the lime access program right now follows Federal documentation of being eligible for the affordability program but there might be ways in that area anyway to have some more flexibility

[254:01] potentially and if there's a way in which you know I don't want to keep this away but if the city can help subsidize that program through lime to help those folks better access the program that potentially could be a good use of those funds that we've collected through fees to enter back into the program to support it thank you just one question I'm amazed at the sensitivity of the Geo fencing concept is it possible to one of the major concerns obviously is pedestrian safety on sidewalks can you geofence a a sidewalk so that's that's the trick with the with geofencing right now it's not that laser-like focused um in terms of where you so geofencing right now um cannot distinguish between 10 feet

[255:00] between a sidewalk and a street we can take large portions of you know of ground and then geofence that zone but to say we need we can geofence the sidewalk but we're not going to geofence the street it's not we're not capable of doing that at this point so that's why we hit when we roll into the more sensitive areas like Pearl Street Mall and University Hill we've got to think really carefully about how we allow access to those areas we want circulation through but we definitely don't want them rotting around in the downtown on sidewalks and so um that's going to be the trick moving forward as someone who almost got run down on Walnut by somebody on the sidewalk at about 15 miles an hour I'm a little sensitive to to that issue understandably so okay thanks Nicole

[256:00] thank you and thanks for the presentation um I'm asking you to have a little bit of a crystal ball here so I understand it's a harder question but I'm wondering when the higher density neighborhoods um in larger residents or largely residential areas um can think about getting these scooters and I think I may be being a little bit selfish here but it seems ideal to have them embedded in neighborhoods uh like mine that are higher density residential but still have half a mile to a mile to go until they can get to Transit um especially in you know some of these neighborhoods that are higher density that the savings would have a significant impact on people's cost of living so anyway with your crystal ball yeah well I would say that lime is I'm sorry I would say that lime is very cute or Keen into where they're going to be able to make the most money they are um profit motivated and so they're going to want to provide the service uh to where they're going to see the most use and high density neighborhoods are going to be those areas where they're going to

[257:01] want to Stack um the area with scooters um we need to be frank with with the financial aspect but they do have to maintain a profitable business and that's tough to do but it's interesting because that is also what kind of drives use is the high demand and high density areas have higher demand as opposed to the lower density areas within the city does that help Nicole can see you yeah and um I mean is it are you thinking like maybe years are we thinking you know a decade I'm just trying to get a sense of what what the time some of the best micro Mobility stuff into well the next year you know I think we've got some stuff on the east side that we'd like to get in shape um before we expand into West of 28th Street and so but I would imagine it's this year that we begin to expand

[258:01] Citywide but I can't give you the exact month at this point me thank you thank you great are we ready to start giving feedback oh Terry got a question yeah yeah I missed you sorry okay so first of all um wait let me just look at my nose for a second okay my first question is is hybrid so just for me to get this you mind if I stand so I'm not going to sit my first question is hybrid um so it's hybrid because you're still going to have certain streets that are dockless but you're not people aren't going to be able to take their scooters home anymore and leave them there the hybrid really refers to um like I mentioned having the dockless capability at some of our activity centers like shopping centers but then creating the mandatory designated parking everywhere else

[259:02] yeah that's a bummer really because I think it says 49 of riders use it's because it's simple they just have to throw it somewhere that's the unfortunate part but it's also the fortunate part it is a catch-22 yeah so I'm wondering can you um I'm thinking about how some I know it's illegal to ride them on sidewalks but I noticed that almost every lime scooter person said they didn't feel safe to ride them on the streets especially like Arapahoe and such would there be possibility and you can blame them nobody so would there be possibilities of certain streets like Baseline up Baseline down Arapahoe where they can nice wide sidewalks that they can ride them absolutely legally yeah we didn't have that in the presentation but that was included in the memo yeah to look at the policy around um riding e-scooters on

[260:00] sidewalks and recognizing that not all corridors and sidewalks are equal and and that there are some locations where there's very low pedestrian volume and those areas may be suitable to allow e-scooters on sidewalks like 55th Street like Arapahoe like you mentioned this Baseline and whatnot right so I would think more suitable than like University Hill where there's a lot of smaller streets and um you know people nervous about being hit like Mark very true for instance um is it possible to have fines for bad behavior so that all the other people don't have to be uh you know what's interesting when you say bad behavior do you mean like operating the scooter or parking the scooter um parking well in general it's just it's a Pity that people some most people are probably fine you know they probably behave well and there's a small percentage of people

[261:00] that are this far from hitting Mark or you know drunk or you know right so we're speaking of uh the enforcement of where people are riding and how they're riding yeah and that is a difficult thing to address and frankly PD right now at this point doesn't have the resources to focus on um I was thinking of lime giving them a fine if there's some way that they can look in their crystal ball that Nicole was talking about and say hey I can see that person yes or for like throwing them in a ditch which just seems rude you know a lot of times when the e-scooters are parked in properly it's because they've been tampered with after the after the use of the scooter so it's the third party and and that's why getting back to the designated parking area makes a lot of sense because you don't have e-scooters that are you know far away from the you know kind of the main area where they're being used and so when they are more remote they're more susceptible for or vandalism and that's when we they end up in trees and in ditches and and whatnot so then it

[262:01] makes sense to change that anyway to uh docked bring them bring them back to the barn yeah if you will my last question has to do with um there was the last Mile and Via so are you saying because I'm thinking about the lat we always talked about the last mile we went when we were on the campaign Trail I just learned what it was like a year ago good for me and um but let's say somebody gets off a bus are they then going to have are there going to be scooters right there for people to take what does via have to do with it so yes the first and final mile is a significant aspect of shared micro-mobility to pair these devices with Transit stops so that people have the combination of being able to use a scooter or bike to get to it Transit stop take the bus get off the destination and then have another one available for the last leg of their Journey so that makes sense from a local perspective too and we're also thinking

[263:01] about that from a regional perspective what's on the other side of trips in Longmont was to the side of the trips in Westminster and when they get here to to Boulder do they have an option of micro Mobility share micro Mobility to complete their trip and that's what makes Transit a lot more attractive so yes yeah that's that's being done today and um as part of our next proposed next step we hope to amplify that all right good that wasn't that many questions Tara all right so feedback let's see staff has a proposal for next steps oh no it's Junie I'm so sorry Jenny had a question too hi you just want to end the night me too is it showing well my question you mentioned encouraging the city to pursue aggressive incentives and subsidies and you also mentioned the micro Mobility card and I was wondering what does that

[264:00] entail right so there was a lot of interest around this when we presented to the downtown Boulder partnership and also to the um the downtown um downtown management commission thank you around providing more Transportation options for people who work downtown instead of using a car they can use micro Mobility but they want to make it easy and so through General improvement district tax dollars potentially those monies could be used to subsidize passes for employees of downtown and that could be for University Hill it could be for Boulder Junction or for the downtown area and so and then the concept of a Mobility card was that would be like a sort of a One-Stop shop you know and that's that's really dreaming at this point you know how we would be able to use a car that you could use for Transit that you could use for e-bikes that you could use for e-scooters that you could use to rent a locker you know and so but having just that convenience factor of

[265:01] just one unit of currency okay so when I read it I was thinking or bus passes the Eco pass yes and so does that mean you would be working with RTD as well as part of that project or is that not something that has been yet conceptualized in that way we'd like to have that you want to speak to that well yeah I can just say that it's not something that it's not a project on the work plan yet it's definitely something that it's a vision that I think everyone shares kind of the local governments across the region and RTD um and probably also the micro Mobility providers would be my guess but the technology really I mean hasn't been there and been proven at least largely across the United States yet so that's something we definitely know we need at some point in the future but it's not quite there yet thank you okay sorry again feedback on the proposed next steps I got Rachel

[266:02] I guess I'm I'm just continuing with my earlier concern like I'm so impressed with the numbers on the first and last mile solution and unlike our average is one mile right like it's so awesome that we're getting people from their house to um the scooter but I feel like if I'm visualizing the people who are using them in my neighborhood if they pick it up at Table Mesa park and ride or near cu and especially like people from out of town getting disabled Mesa they're going to ride it to this you know to the street maybe where wherever they're going and not be able to park it and then just have to take it back right and it's not going to be able to be I think it's easy to use with the without the dockless where you can leave it so I think we're gonna we're gonna lose people there and it seems like it almost has to get to a point where on the end of every block you would have one of those things that you showed us in that neighborhood available because otherwise if we're trying to get people from their home and we are a largely you know single family home spread out city in some ways like not everybody's going to

[267:00] live near one of these spots where you can dock I just think we're gonna it doesn't make sense to me as a first Last Mile solution if we if we can't get to our house and and park it somewhere near where we can walk I think all these people and we'll miss you thank you thanks for being here and thanks for getting us started with this program Matt Tara Junior oh I I'll start by saying I think this kind of exemplifies what a pilot program is right you set some goals you have some aspirations you set it in motion you adapt and then you say Let's uh scrap let's let's fix the bad and expand the good that's what I see here so I I like where this is headed and I do share some of these concerns but I I think there's been a case study that in this program there's adaptability to want to adjust in real time and and make those changes so um credit to staff credit to to Lime for for being adaptable and working with us and our community so thank you and I just I like where this is headed and I'm excited to see where the expansion goes

[268:00] and and especially when it reaches downtown and other core areas so thanks for all the great work and look forward to seeing that expansion and hitting maybe a distance to Jupiter instead of just the moon in a couple years yes Jupiter's a lot farther away oh I know you know hey Tara and Junior one of the reasons why I'm the most excited about this is because a fair amount of people don't like the traffic here especially people are worried about the traffic CU South is going to bring so so if I hope people aren't watching me late at night everybody shut off their TV already um so that me that will be great if we students are really on on these things and so that really is exciting for us for less traffic because less because more students are riding e-bikes and they're also riding scooters so although some people are scared of being hit I look at the good and that is that we're going to have less traffic because

[269:01] students really like to ride them I live near CU so I really enjoy watching the students ride them and most of them are very polite on their scooters that I've seen so I'm just going to stick up for the students here so um I'm excited that's all I have to say thank you I just want to say that from reading the packet I'm thank you for how you how do I put it how do you analyze or put things together when you talked about safety again I've been on Council for three years and I've seen this program being deployed and the concerns had been people with disabilities the scooters being littered all over the place and I feel like this particular memo has been really trying hard to explain to us the part of

[270:00] some of the solutions and the fact that in the future you'll be working on that as well so thank you for that that's greatly appreciated and also another part you mentioned education as well uh using different media to educate Community that's thank you for for that aspect of it as well and the safety so safety equity and education I saw that all throughout the memo that's greatly appreciated and one last thought I wanted to add not to co-op your idea but um consider geofencing I I welcome that thought around certain time if that's even possible because again when it comes to community members people who are maybe using these scooters at night time when they're drinking in certain areas you're going 15 miles an hour on a sidewalk there are safety issues there if there is time geofencing I think that's a great idea if there's area geofencing I

[271:00] also think that would be a great idea as well thank you mark DK thank you um and good luck um I think I agree with Matt this is really trending in the right direction I had when it was first proposed I had several reservations the first was scooters ending up in landfill after a couple of months and that seems to have been taken care of um the second is the unsightliness of scooters everywhere and I think you're addressing that although frankly I'm not sure why you wouldn't put geofence parking areas in the shopping centers you just dump your bike and go go shopping um but the third I think still requires a little bit of work which is uh pedestrian safety um what I don't want to see happen is is have people who are used to walking feel

[272:01] unsafe and get in their car that sort of defeats the the whole basis of the program so I think there's still more to be done with that um and I I hope we will continue to refine this so that safety of pedestrians is dealt with in a stronger way but other than that I think everything that I'm hearing is is a positive and going in the right direction and you know as Matt said I applaud you for the flexibility to adapt to conditions and and continue to make refinements to the program and you know you've made great great progress you're almost there but there's a little more work to be done on you know sidewalks Lauren yeah I appreciate all the detailed thought that's gone into this proposal um I think for me the two areas that I want to see continue to evolve are just around sort

[273:02] of thinking about maybe different kinds of zones that might happen throughout the city um I think that for a lot you know especially more dense areas of the city the parking the geofence parking areas make a lot of sense but as we move out into more Suburban areas around town that there might be different areas of town where that doesn't make as much sense and so just continuing to think about what what's appropriate where in the community there with that and and also with speeds you know and just thinking about what parts of town what speeds make sense [Music] thank you great I'll I'll call on myself here and uh I'm just going to go back to a few years ago when we were teetering on the edge of microability Mobility disappearing right because B cycle was on the verge of going away and we didn't have a good scooter program or plan in place at that time and it was really

[274:01] looking pretty bad for our first and final mile micro Mobility future and meanwhile b-cycled not the subject's night but they've transitioned to the e-bike successfully their numbers are through the roof which is fantastic and we've had this very successful e-scooter pilot so just huge Kudos right like it it was looking dark there for a little while and and it's going so well now and I think you're absolutely on target with these next steps so I'd absolutely support you I'll just uh Echo a couple things I think Rachel's point about that balance of the where the dockings are I mean I think it's generally worth it because the the sidewalk obstructions and users with disabilities that's a problem right so but it's got to be done carefully so that it's still a usable program so maybe that's a phased in thing you know maybe it's maybe the the docs take over slowly you know and and it obviously it's going to be iterative right we know that uh but that's going to need some work uh for sure

[275:00] um and I also just want to really commend the focus on racial equity and the way that that's been implemented so far and it seems like it hasn't it hasn't been 100 successful it's made a real difference and I think there's probably gotten a lot more writers in those area in those areas than they would have if we hadn't paid attention to that so Kudos on that and that'll be really important to continue that work as we spread into the rest of the city right and to evaluate potential other areas that deserve the same level of attention so um I imagine you'll be thinking about that as well but uh just mostly you know huge Kudos and looking forward to the next steps so I think that's it does that give you all what you need it's a good stuff it's good enough well DK you're ending on a high note let's give a round of applause appreciate your years of service to the city it's been a pleasure working together best luck with next steps yeah and thanks for the partnership thank you as well

[276:02] all right any uh final thoughts before we wrap up for the evening okay good to go thanks thanks for another good set of conversations everybody I'll gavel us closed at 10 34. [Music] [Music] good