February 11, 2020 — City Council Study Session

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:00] [Music] good evening welcome to the February 11th City Boulder City Council study session once again I want to remind you all that there has been no coup and Sam is still mayor we are just taking turns running study sessions based on our council agenda committee rotation and so I'm in the hot seat this rotation or at least this last study session and then then someone else will surprise you next time so I have an announcement regarding boards and commissions the annual recruitment is still in process last day

[1:00] 00 p.m. February 14th the general requirements are that you have been residing a minimum of one year within the Boulder City Limits be 18 years of age and other requirements may apply based on the board currently we've received 47 applications and the following boards have received have not received any applications the boulder Jenks Junction access district parking Commission the boulder Junction access district travel demand and design Advisory Board Downtown Management Commission and the environmental Advisory Board so if you're interested in any of those please apply or any of the others thank you very much and our first topic will be the tribal consultation

[2:04] oh you know I'm gonna do one more thing before I was just reminded that there are two subcommittees that would need need to appoint Council members to the first one is the has to do with the police ooh is members to part two two members to participate in fair and impartial policing command and community training and Tonya do you want to talk a little bit about that one yes I can can I have my piece of paper with the back first Mary thanks I appreciate that so the police department is starting out fair impartial fair and impartial policing training and this is the first time that this training has been brought to the department this is the nationally

[3:00] recognized training and we are inviting council members and and some community members to this first training which is a day and a half it will be on April 28th from 9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. in 30 to 1:30 p.m. so we do recognize this is a time commitment for council and the council members that do attend we would ask that you do attend the full day and a half training so I do want to stress that point this is an area that we have also received significant interest from community members to have a greater understanding of our Police Training so after we roll through training within the department we will be holding a four-hour session that will give the full overview of what so day-and-a-half training is for the community we are tentatively looking at the date of June 3rd we don't have further details at this time as far as what time of day or the location but

[4:01] more information will be available in the future so if there are council members that are interested but can't commit to the day and a half that four-hour training will be available in the future all right and maybe we come we can think about it because it is quite a commitment and then come back to it after this first topic and then the other subcommittee for which we're looking for council volunteers is the engagement creating engagement / creating a welcoming council environment subcommittee and that goes back to our retreat when we were talking about doing some things differently and trying some different things to hopefully engage more and different people so let's think about that one as well and we'll come back to it in between the two topics Mary can I just add this while you're thinking about that the subcommittee process we

[5:00] found great value when we had established a subcommittee for chats with council and I believe if I recall Suzanne Jones and Aaron you were a member of that subcommittee and so what was really helpful is to get feedback from the council at that time to understand what your goals were and for us to kind of collectively shape what the process would look moving forward so based on the council retreat we're recommending a similar process for the retreat follow-up items Thank You Tanya and sorry for the interruption well good evening Council I'm Dan Burke director of open space mountain parks and before we dive in for tonight's first topic which is to help us prepare for the upcoming tribal consultation I just want to first recognize and acknowledge the efforts that city staff are doing in regards to preparing for tribal consultation and tribal relations in general it's really a group effort

[6:00] throughout multiple departments we meet monthly throughout the year and from city manager's office but we have Jayne that attends all the meetings Tanya a McMahon Pam Davis Tom Carr from the City Attorney's Office attends those monthly meetings and Kurt Ferran hubber with housing and Human Services we have several representatives from open space in mountain parks including Christian Driver our cultural resources coordinator and then from city communications affiliates so it's it's quite a team effort that that we get together once a month a lot of it is centered around preparing for our upcoming consultations but it also is a chance for us to discuss tribal relations in general and where we learn a lot throughout these discussions and and throughout the topics that we cover so I just wanted to first point that out and to my left we have earnest House who

[7:00] will introduce himself in just a bit but earnest is a senior policy adviser with the Keystone Policy Center and earnest has been with the city as far as arc our consultant who consults with us on tribal relation issues including consultation and has been helping us out with the city of about a year and a half now it's a so it's really an honor to meet with earnest many times throughout the year so again the primary purpose for tonight is to help us bear to prepare for the upcoming consultation that the city of Boulder will be hosting with a about a dozen representatives from about a dozen tribal nations that have recognized presence here in this region and an earnest will will be using the bulk of the of the time here in order to give us an overview of what consultations are what the history of consultations are what we might expect

[8:00] that sort of a thing but before earnest dives in and then and and entertains any questions you have after your presentation I thought I would just briefly provide you with an overview of the city's history with consultation so back in the 1990's there was culture there was tribal interest in the NIST property at the time when building construction was being contemplated out along Broadway and through those consultations and discussions that the federal government was having with the tribes the city of Boulder was a participant in that and we decided that after an agreement was reached between the federal government and and those tribal nations that had an interest in the cultural resources on the property that we wanted to continue discussions with with tribes as a city and so we ended up pursuing discussions and consultations beginning in the late 90s through the early 2000s and mainly

[9:03] those those common interests that developed and that emerged from those discussions were primarily interest on the tribes of views and and interest on on the open space portions of the cities interest many of the cultural resources that we identify from a city's perspective are located out on on city lands and the tribal and the tribes were interested and discussing that and what is it what emerged from those first few consultations was a series of memorandums of understanding I believe there was three or four in total that the city has signed and executed with 13 tribal nations and and the last one I believe was amended in 2004 so now we're getting to having those agreements are about 20 years 20 years old so fast forward to 2016 when the city adopted

[10:02] resolution I believe it was 11 90 yes it was the resolution that among other things declared the second Monday of October to be indigenous peoples day there was several other aspects to that resolution including the desire to properly name Popat do proper naming and out of that was specifically stated to look at renaming settlers Park and to seek tribal input into that renaming process so what emerged from that was the city hosting a tribal consultation last march in 2019 in which fourteen tribal nations were invited to attend a two-day consultation with the settlers Park renaming a big part of that we actually went out to settlers park and toured the property we came back and had several hours of discussion on that is to give them some

[11:00] background on why we felt we wanted to do a name change and why getting tribal input was very important to us and we learned a lot about how best to work with tribes through that process at that same consultation we also reintroduce the memorandums of understanding that we had with the tribes and went through them so we work from a common understanding of where we're at with agreements that we already have and what emerged out of that two-day consultation was a desire to meet again in 2020 and part of the agenda for most of the agenda in 2020 would be to continue those discussions on the renaming of settlers Park and the desire to revisit those memorandums of understanding and to do updates to them as as may seem fit when we gather later in March so because we're a little bit more than six weeks away from another consultation and because we have some new council members here we thought it would be a good opportunity to bring earnest in to give you all a little bit of a background of

[12:00] what consultations are and some other information that's going to be helpful for you if you participate in portions of the upcoming consultation so with that I'm gonna turn it over to Ernest house thanks Stan yeah Mike given the walk it's an honor to be with you all this evening it's good to see some familiar faces around the table I look forward to meeting the new members of council it's an honor to be with you this evening and as we go through this process I'm approaching this opportunity as if really we're all starting from step one or really no step at all if you've worked with tribes maybe you have an extensive background in working with tribes or maybe you've not worked with tribes at all before I'm approaching this with the understanding that that you are this is the first step and so I think that you know based on your your information and background please when we get to that or if there's any type of questions you have feel free to to jot

[13:00] them out over this PowerPoint I've provided not just what consultation is what we're looking at doing what the whole intent is I'm trying to keep it at a 30,000 foot a level because every consultation is different every one of them are unique for whatever purpose that brings folks together for and then also to give you some background or a little bit of why we have certain these conversations with tribal nations who've always called Colorado home I would also like to first start out with you know recognizing and acknowledging that you know the the land that we meet on today and and what we call our current homes today have always been historical homes for since time immemorial for tribes like my own the ute mountain ute tribe southern ute northern Utes rapaho Cheyenne and many other tribes that here be coming to this consultation in in a handful of weeks so I thank you for your opportunity to to present this in front of you today so starting off I just want to give you a general idea of what the Colorado's American Indian Alaskan native

[14:00] population currently our numbers here in Colorado mere the national numbers nationally two percent of America two percent of citizens across the u.s. identify as American Indian Alaskan native the same thing goes for here in Colorado you may think that number should be higher or may be lower depending on what states you may have come from or if you've grown up here in Colorado but it's been pretty consistent however we have seen a major growth in urban areas in the Denver Metro area which also includes a seven County District which I would also say would include Boulder representation as well we're seeing the growth more drastically on an incline in an increase greater than we have in the last 20 or 30 years and I think by the 2020 census you will see that here are just some numbers across the state but here in the Denver metro area we have about 150 to 200 different tribes represented from all across the United States and with the

[15:01] Sioux nations being the most represented and then the Navajo Nation being members being the fastest-growing citizens American Indian citizens we see moving to the urban areas now when the 2010 census happened there was about 75% of the total American Indian population in the United States lived off of the reservation by 2020 I expect that never be well over 80% reason why I think a lot of the growth were seeing in metro areas and urban areas are looking for jobs also look looking for a better education greater institutions like see you and others have opened up that possibility to do so so when we talk about tribal nations in Colorado and when Dan talks about we had invited tribal nations last year to a consultation and about fourteen tribes were represented and we'll probably get to that number this year this is a list of 48 historic tribes of Colorado these

[16:01] tribes have a legacy of occupation within what we know is the state of Colorado now 46 of those signed treaties and agreements that forcibly remove them from what we know is Colorado some by gunpoint to states like Oklahoma Montana the Dakotas some treaties like the Fort Laramie Treaty removed a good portion of these you'll see 19 Pablos on there that are all reside in the state of New Mexico and the two tribes we have today is the ute mountain ute tribe which I'm a member of and our sister tribe the southern new Indian tribe so a little bit about one of those tribes and I'm talking from my experience alone I wouldn't want to give the history on another tribe that I'm not a member of so this is using this as an example you know the Utes what we know about the Utes well there's seven bands of Utes but a lot of people to really recognize the three tribes today the amount new tribe and Toyo Colorado the southern Indian tribe inning Nashville Colorado

[17:01] close to Durango and the you Indian tribe and Fort Dechaine Utah now the Indian tribe was also forcibly removed before during this process like the other tribal nations were as well and we talked about Utes historic territory the green dotted line represents the vast area that the youths would hunt go after game now the Utes also were identified as one of the first tribal nations to acquire the horse by the Spanish and so when we when you may have read books like the Comanche nation or Empire summer moon or even did more research done wrong research around Sioux nations or rapaho culture Kiowa Plains tribes those were tribes that tended to be on the eastern plains Utes Shoshones some other ones were more of the mountain people Utes were called Mountain people we were nomadic and we always moved around based on where the game wore but we primarily resided up in the mountains the red dotted line identifies primarily

[18:01] that territory which we would be going and hunting and fishing and looking for a game so if we were to take those seven bands that make up ute tribes today this is predominantly where they would be but again we were also moving with the elements we're moving with the climate so my band is the women each band in southwestern Colorado we would gravitate towards the Vail Valley back down to southwestern Colorado basically you know because of the winters with a little bit more warmer climate a lot goes for some of these other bands as well so historically this next few slides give you an idea of progression of land lost in what we know is Colorado and I'm giving you this example of just the Utes all these other tribes went through their own process and I want to recognize that but when we talk about why this is so important to tribal nations I'm getting to that

[19:01] on why the importance comes why the consultations are so needed today and why they're relevant today so here's what we have is the map of what we know is a state of Colorado today I usually type to like to think that all of this was was traditional ute and has been traditional youth land we have hunting blind still standing in Rocky Mountain National Park our last bear dance was identified ceremony in garden the gods in 1908 until we were removed from that location so really we've represented a large portion of the state of Colorado but the first ute reservation was established in 1868 and it was on the western part of the state of Colorado on the western slope then treaties were renegotiated and then you start seeing chunks taken out now if you've been to southwestern Colorado where I'm from I was born and raised in Cortez then you know the San Juans has over 400 miles of mining

[20:00] tunnels he was silver and or and so when this was the agreement at this time was the federal government would keep out non Utes out of the area in blue but they weren't able to do that given the growth of mining and particularly in the southwest but also the Utes was the first time we were half what we had to get approval and seek approval to go outside of that blue area so like I said you know the the hunting blind still standing in Rocky Mountain National Park or the items and ceremonies we'd have in places like Garland the gods clearly this was a huge game changer for the youth perspective on many levels but then you really start to see the encroachment and he starts to see the take away from that then this was by the 1880s it was called the Utes trip this was also following the Meeker massacre they used to call it the Meeker incident I'm sure you can read more about that which happened right outside a Meeker Colorado and which also turned into the Battle of Mill Creek the northern Utes

[21:02] the four bands that make up the you Indian tribe in Utah today they were removed at this point from the state of Colorado by gunpoint by a Calvary to what then is now in the state of Utah the other three bands move south and we both three bands resided on this huge strip now anthropologists and archeologists will tell you that Utes have been in what we know as Colorado for the last ten to twelve thousand years we lost Colorado in 40 years from the 1860s to the late 1880s in the early 1900s and now this is what our reservation system outline looks like today so the blue line in southwestern color represents my tribe that's the ute mountain ute tribe we're in three states we have two communities once toya Colorado right south of Cortez and the others white mesa utah south of landing we're 600,000 acres 2,000 members seven member governing council and we can get more specifics that later are since my

[22:01] sister tribe in the is the southern new Indian tribe 300,000 acres checkerboard reservation their house out of Ignacio Colorado I give you this context and background because when we invite Kahn tribal consultations or when organizations entities at the federal level or state level invite to host tribal consultations it's so important to talk about this from a historical context because when we're just talking about open space it's not just open space to tribal leaders clearly there's been generations that have utilized this space that we either call home or that we collectively discuss around trails or parks or even certain elements or maybe certain ceremonies were done that we had no idea about many of these tribes like have said 46 are not are located in Colorado anymore just to have the opportunity to come back to a place that they have always called Colorado home and then held in such high regard is such a huge

[23:02] step forward and so that's why I want to give you that background first Before we jump into this portion of tribal consultation any questions there before I move into this portion I have was probably a minor question but it came up when I first read through this presentation if you go to this slide before yeah what are the green dots are those like known areas of tribal settlement or what do the green dots represent know that's a great question they're actually only to represent those communities that are listed there on the map so wallenberg Trinidad Trinidad give you a kind of general location of where these municipalities are and where they reside so they don't they don't they're not related to any sacred sites or anything like that okay and it doesn't have anything to do with the tribes over there okay great thank you yes what is the significance of the number seven

[24:00] well I think for different tribes it's it's different I think especially for some of our sister tribes around the Sioux Nation so it means different generations and representation of not just past generations but future generations always in the number-7 but there's also number four that's very relevant for directions for seasons four representations of life it really comes down to different creation stories of how these tribes what they hold near and dear how the process they work through there's certain ways to enter rooms or in specially lodges or sweat ceremonies and a lot of these numbers come out in those types of ceremonies so it's really dependent on which tribal nation that you're talking to that's a good question so moving on to what is tribal consultation and you have an attachment within your packet that's a rather large

[25:01] document it's about a 50 page document but it's a document that when as the former executive director for the Colorado Commission of Indian Affairs I served under governor Owens governor Ritter and governor Hickenlooper my office put together because when I was in that position we started the first process for a state tribal consultation and that was the main question where we received what is this what are we doing and really the intent is that the consultation is is the open and mutual exchange of information integral to the effective collaboration and participation and informed decision-making you can go through this list I'm not going to read that to you but all identify in this next part of the PowerPoint the pages within that consultation guide that I think would be helpful if you do have questions or maybe as you prepare for the Consol tribal consultation that you may want to know a little bit more about and in that document it goes more deeper into the weeds on some of these things and I'll identify which pages they can be found on here so why is there a need for local

[26:01] tribal consultation you know this is fascinating I think what and I said this to the had the opportunity to talk with the council last year I think Boulder has a unique opportunity in front of you and I think following up on that is is even better now I was a part of one of those mo use in the early 2000s I've just started with the state it was talking about valmont Butte and we were taught we were at the cod the Colorado Commission of Indian Affairs to kind of help with the community conversation and what that looked like even at that point I thought that what a unique opportunity you have here of not only communities and mis municipalities are in the foothills but holds such rich significant cultural areas when the mountains are so close same thing goes for Colorado Springs Colorado Springs has also engaged in tribal consultation but after their fires that happened that were those horrific fires the floods that followed

[27:00] those reroute a lot of their waterways and so they were consulting with tribes because more cultural artifacts were identified so there was a reason to bring them to the table this one is also unique you have prior agreements that would engage in a consultation or you've talked with tribes in the past and so following up on those would be obviously the number one thing that also is to enable the creation of strategies how you look at the potential future of what these open space places mean these shared spaces that you're that you're talking about not just about you know looking at identifying name changes or even acknowledgments but having getting guidance from federally recognized tribal representatives on what that looks like clearly the leverage of that opportunity that mutually benefits the collaboration between local government state agencies tribes and Colorado's American Indian communities like I mentioned there is a growth of the American Indian community

[28:00] in the Denver metro area and that's going to continue to grow the same type of questions are going to be probably brought forward to other municipalities that you're you're adjacent to you if that's Longmont Lafayette Denver's already addressed them we've brought in the Denver American Indian Commission so different organizations different municipalities are really addressing these in a different way but it all starts with with the consultation and of course this one was identified under a previous agreement so when you're in a tribal consultation it really is concise tauf consensus based decision making you're providing information there's really no formal vote that's being taken you're really seeking the guidance you appreciate their time the tribal leaders that have traveled there and this is the opportunity to talk about what that future may look like what the management plan may look like what a site may be here's the opportunity to engage and have that conversation which is why in tribal consultations there's

[29:01] closed-door meetings the reason why they're closed-door meetings is because there is an information sharing there between tribal nations and you all that a lot of these tribes are not comfortable sharing or they've not put it in writing or it's not been shared outside of that entity sometimes tribes aren't even required to talk about certain ceremonies because it's not not that time of the year meaning Utes we talk about we do traditional story and telling only during certain stories only during the winter time because traditionally we've been in lodges during the winter time it was when you'd gather your family you try to gather that warmth and that was the opportunity to do that you know a lot of times these tribes will also may discuss sacred sites sacred areas where the Putt general public does not know and it will help guide your conversation because there may be a path being created right next to it you might have a new mountain biking path that's going right next to that that the tribal nations might fear would would negatively impact that space

[30:04] and that's information that you should know that the tribes don't like to share what not like to share outside of that context and so that's why a lot of the consultations especially at the federal level and the state level are in closed-door sessions we also give the tribes an opportunity to have one-on-one sessions maybe there's one thing the tribe that wants to pull Dan aside and say you know what there's I have a concern about this area can I learn a little bit more about this or what's this site being utilized what does that management plan look like so you might hear more of that as you go throughout the consulate of the consultation really consultation these are different guides the one on the right is the the government e1 which I would have loved to change them the front page of that make it not look so much like that in hindsight but other different ones that are you know National Indian Education Association right now every student succeeds Act which the Colorado Department of Education adheres to and local school

[31:01] districts adhere to talk about how to build tribal relationships through consultation as well so there's all different types of examples of what that looks like so in that document and in the very beginning it will talk about tribal sovereignty what is tribal sovereignty you identify that we talked about examples of really as it comes down to jurisdiction because a lot of times that's a little bit easier on why and how to explain tribal sovereignty and why that's needed why we're identifying that there this invitations being sent to federally recognized tribes Colorado does not have any state recognized tribes there are a lot of state recognized tribes throughout the u.s. majority of them are in the south and the south southeast but more and more states it's really up to them on how they want to recognize state recognized tribes but there is a federal process to go through to be federally recognized and so that tribal sovereignty gives you a little bit more time to talk about that and then it also

[32:01] goes into what's government to government relationship so based on tribal sovereignty tribes are very aware that because they are seen and because they're identified in the US Constitution as a government and respected as such then they should have a government-to-government relationship meaning that they should be able to sit at the table like we are today to have a conversation with you all out of us a local entity at a state with the state agency leaders and with the federal leaders as well different federal agencies conduct their consultations away our state agencies do that very same thing governor Poulos about eight months ago what and visited both you tribes and South to south western Colorado we started getting that process on a regular basis but it really is to respect the government-to-government relationship unfortunately there's a lot of states who do not take the government-to-government relationship seriously and unfortunately I think that's turned into a bad relationship between the two entities which could

[33:00] possibly take years to try to cultivate and put back on track obviously it's a mutual ongoing understanding we try to give examples in that document a little bit more of why states and tribes do that and whether you the conversation is unique or we share a lot of information the Colorado Water Plan is an example first time the Colorado Water Plan when we released we reached out to the tribes to get their input what that looked like the state of Colorado outdoor recreation plan the scorp now goes into tribal communities so these are some examples but I would think that a lot of these could be examples that the staff and others at the city level can also look at ways to engage tribes we just had the recent Outdoor Retailer winter show in Denver more and more those tribes are being requested to attend those conversations because what is outdoor recreation mean to tribal nations well if you ask jobs which we

[34:00] have a lot of my tribal leaders and others will be kind of confused about that we've always recreative outdoors for thousands and thousands of years so what does that mean today and how does that mean what does that mean to our communities and what are you all doing in communities like Bowler so that's just a couple examples of what we mean when you look at that page when we talk about meaningful tribal consultation now there's been a conversation around yes tribal consultation but then meaningful and the emphasis on meaningful tribal consultation I think federal agencies and state agencies everybody wants to have meaningful tribal consultation but I also tell folks that it doesn't I don't I wouldn't make a determination on if your consultation successful by how many memorandums of understanding or intergovernmental agreements that come out from that if they come out great but if not this is a general session to be able to have that ongoing conversation where does it go from there meaningful

[35:01] I've always thought were that you are coming to it with a good heart with a good mind and you're giving the respect to the conversation we were giving your respect to the visitors that you've invited back to their homeland and being giving them an a comfort area in space to be able to share what they want to share this is all about the development of that relationship where it goes like I said everybody every unique every community's unique and every collaboration where it starts goes through a certain process I told Council last year at that time I'm telling you all that there might be a time in the consultation where the tribal leaders asked you to leave the room or ask staff to leave the room because they need to converse amongst themselves they need to discuss what they're seeing in front of them staff could have presented a lot of information and they just need to get some time to review that sometimes tribal leaders will need to think about

[36:01] this and then talk amongst their peers but then also possibly go and smudge or do some type of ceremony before they come back to what it is you're talking about this also greatly depends on the tribes but for in general time is very different in the concept of time is different in tribal communities and indigenous communities in tribal communities we tend to take more time thinking about certain things and so I think a lot of times when I would be taking like the lieutenant governor or the governor or state leaders down to southwestern Colorado two reservations I'd asked to take their watches or that has to if I could get their phone at least for the meeting because we're so used to looking at this and being caught up with this because that's what drives our day that's what drives our agenda but that comes off disrespectful because of the emphasis of time and so those type of

[37:00] certain things are things that we're trying to engage and create this space that really proves that that you are there and staff is there to really truly get down to not only having conversation about the issues but then how do you move and go on from there if that makes sense so part of those tips for consultation and I just talked about really the the around what what some of those examples are you'll find on pages 33 in 34 but really it's the time to to spend on those like what I talked about and then of course knowing that when tribes need to make it if you're asking tribal nations to make a decision they need to go back like many of you if you're representing so you a builder to bring it back to your councilmembers to your mayor same thing goes with a lot of tribes they need to take it back to their tribal councils their tribal leadership to make a determination to get more to gather more information to

[38:00] be able to come back I think the staffs been really great in at least in my experience over the last year and a half around allowing tribes that flexibility to do that respecting that process and at the end of each consultation will ask the tribes what that process is to be respectful of how they want to move forward and moving this conversation forward additional tips on successful consultation in that document of course like I said can be found on on 33 and 34 I think one of the interesting things too is one of the biggest questions I used to get all the time when I was with the Colorado Commission of Indian Affairs was what's the preferred term I don't want to be disrespectful I'm taking this obviously very seriously I've done my research but is that Native America is it Indian Native American or American Indian and a great question and really that the the first what I would always tell folks is the first preferred language or term would be whatever

[39:02] specific tribe that was so if you knew you were talking with the you mountain ute tribe or southern ute tribe but you may not know that but tribes like to be referred to by their tribal nation and then a lot of times I'll use in this document you'll see me interchange between American Indian Alaska Native and Native American Native American is one that's being gradually phased out Indian is is a legal term that will be used by Congress and in legal documents but is not supported used outside of that context American Indian is probably the most wider used term and actually in even state agent state policy or with the state legislature there's a process now to move of that to American indian/alaska native a lot of times to is Alaska Natives also come and reside not only in our communities but then have businesses have business dealings in the Denver Metro area so that's why it's also important that we're acknowledging the

[40:01] American Indians / Alaska native so if you see American Indians / Alaskan native that's predominately because it's being used a lot more and the transitioning from but really the best bet is to ask the tribes you know what their what that pref preference would be but a lot of times it's the first form is going to be the best case is going to be the Tribal Nation what that you're working with yep and that set of terms you didn't mention indigenous it's a good question I think indigenous is also a term that's used on a very broad scope and when I talk about indigenous today there's indigenous cultures both Latino Hispanic communities in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico that have also been a part of of different indigenous communities both historically by migrating from Mexico I think indigenous to the land can also include some of these groups as well when I'm talking about American Indians

[41:01] we're talking about I'm talking about federally recognized our state recognized tribes so that's the distinction I think that's a very good question that you talked about though because when I talk to colleges or universities today especially when talking about indigenous knowledge there's a lot of that shared indigenous knowledge that's passed on through different groups doesn't matter which tribe which community you come from you belong to that doesn't matter but there's an indigenous knowledge of generations or groups of people that have been there for a long time that I think are under the umbrella of the term indigenous so here the last two slides are really the couple pictures and I sorry I apologize I'm my photographer clearly but so a lot of the back of the heads but to give you an idea that picture on the left was the format that we've used is really I mean circles always are important but we have

[42:03] large representation like up to 14 tribes you know rectangles Jews I mean we're trying to try and have everybody see that we have a place on the side for the public for the very opening and then so that's the the picture of what that looks like representatives are scattered throughout the table it's not in any type of format we're really where they would like to sit the picture on the right is when the tribal representatives wanted to go see and tour I think this was settlers park so they wanted to go tour that and see that for themselves again some of them have never seen it they've never been there so it was important to to do that the picture on the lower right was the when we first got to settlers park and staff were giving some background which is always important I think it's going to be important that you see this next consultation that which was a direct quest out of the tribes that they see these spaces that they're talking about that it's great to have this information

[43:01] on paper but really as we would all agree it's you know to see it is even better to see that majesty and then the majestic locations that that have that us being discussed is really of the importance and then the top left is actually at the very end and this is this happens on different consultations depending on what you know where you go but here was an opportunity to some gift exchanges some some gifts some small gifts from the community a boulder to the tribal representatives for being there but then and then you cancel I'd love to get your thoughts on this because I thought it was a very powerful moment when the tribal leaders wanted to return that there's no outline to the tribes didn't were not aware that that there was that the city of Boulder was going to be presenting them with anything and so they really appreciated the hospitality that was shown by the staff and council and so they took this opportunity provide their own gifts and

[44:00] so that can happen also at any point but again it's nothing that's expected it's just something especially for but on this Boulder site it's always nice and we've already had that conversations on making sure that that is still extended to the tribal representation this year as well the wok means thank you and ute thank you for the opportunity to be with you I really do appreciate this I mentioned earlier and I can't emphasize it enough that if other communities could watch how you're holding this conversation not only would I be impressed but I think that other communities and other tribes would be impressed and we'd have the opportunity as Native Americans and American Indians to be able to extend that conversation further to be reconnected to the areas that we've always called home and so I just thank you for your time and your workshop I know you have a very busy agenda and I hope and I look forward to the opportunity to see you in March happy to

[45:01] answer any questions you may have - thanks so much for that and for your help this year and last year in the past I found the the tips for the successful consultation extremely helpful last year before that so four council members are participating I highly recommend reading that through carefully I'm going to reread it this year before I go in so thank you for sharing that with us so I will just put out there for the new members this experience for me was one of the more eye-opening experiences that I have ever had on council or and a lot of other settings as well it was not only a look into a different way of relating to decision making than I experienced here on council and other settings business settings and so on so I'd encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity because it is a little transformative in a way that I didn't

[46:01] expect and the picture that was shown on the previous slide of the gift giving ceremony this was a circle that was formed by the visiting tribes after we had taken a photo of the entire group on the bridge over Boulder Creek and we were mingling and talking and this circle formed and then leadership was in I did into the circle and it was focused on female leadership in particular and so the gifts that were given were to Suzanne Jones who was mayor at the time and Jim Brautigan the city manager and the other women who were there from older in leadership positions and the emphasis that was made by the woman giving the gifts was the wisdom of the grandmothers and she gave the gifts and gave it speech and then they sang I

[47:00] think it was the White Buffalo song white buffalo mountain song and it was incredibly touching and very powerful so I would just say take advantage of this opportunity because it's unique thank you Sam Bob first oh yeah thank you very much Ernest will the um we had what 14 tribes last year last time last year participate will the the participants next month be largely the the same tribe so we have that continuity the continuation of the discussions that were started last year so the invitation has been sent to all of the tribes from the very minute just like last year 48 historic tribes of Colorado and but I think because those 14 have have been involved in the conversation over the last year that's probably will you'll tend to see there also has been some specific requests by tribes by inviting other sister tribes those tribes are still on this list of 48 but maybe because you

[48:02] have to you have to take into account to that like for my tribe there's really there's two people that handle all of the cultural issues and are invited there's so many different states and across the nation so they're trying to divide up their time and so it's just a matter of ensuring that they have the information and that also that they can provide that feedback if they if they cannot attend personally but didn't want to be involved in some way but there's also going to be an extension to those tribes who've shown interest but then also have asked to other tribes be invited ensuring that they were invited as well yeah if we have some new tribal represe or new tribes that have didn't participate last year Christian on the day before is going to offer a tour of settlers park again just to reintroduce folks that maybe didn't have that opportunity last year so we've built that into the agenda any other just one more question um the subject of folks who identify as

[49:06] American Indian but who aren't part of a recognized federally recognized tribe how is is that going to be something that we deal with now or is it something that would come later it was an issue that for me was a little confusing as to how and it was explained that the federally recognized tribes had standing but I was just curious for the the folks who aren't part of that who want to be part of maybe using the open space what's the perspective on that just for a refresher yeah so I mentioned on the office I've intentionally mentioned that there's a group of staff that meet monthly and we do talk and discuss travel consultation but we actually call our group travel with tribal relations because of that very subject is that there are there's a different subject of

[50:02] how we have build relationships within the the urban areas and the folks that maybe don't affiliate with a federally recognized tribe and so we sort of I guess would have to tracks we have this formal consultation with federally recognized tribes and then we're trying to build an understanding them with amongst the city of what it would mean to have meaningful relationships with of urban American Indians that may not associate with a fellow recognized tribes so that's what we invited folks from Denver to hear from what they're doing and what we're beginning to understand is that there's an appreciation and we even had some requests from American and his too to not only think about it from a city of Boulder but more of a regional context so now we've reached out to Boulder County Reeve out just a reached out to Longmont and some other communities that are having the same conversations and just in a month or so staff from all the from the region are

[51:01] going to be our begun are going to be starting to meet out of that we don't know what's going to come out of it but we're trying to develop a way where we can deepen those relationships and deepen conversations and where issues that may be important to American Indians in the urban areas where they might be able to bring those concerns and trying to come up with let the bet best mechanism will be so we're about a year into those conversations and now we're just beginning to have more of those regional conversations can I just add to that a little bit so something that came up last year at tribal consultation was specifically from David Young and David Young has previously approached counsel to wanting to be part of the conversation within this space so we have been meeting with him specifically around this space and how

[52:00] do we how do we move forward with tribal consultation with the recognized tribes and also recognize and respect individuals within our community such as David thank you for that Tonya any other questions all right then Thank You Ernest and thank you Dan thank you thank you see you next month thank you all right well we have the staff change is anyone ready to volunteer for any of the either of the committees that were brought up all right Rachel and mark which I'll volunteer for both I don't want to over overextend or black anybody out but I'm interested in both you have a lot of free time Oh volunteer for the training okay

[53:02] Bob I'm interested in the community engagement all right it sounds like we have two teams got that thank you for that and we will share with olive council when the June 3rd community training is for the fair and impartial policing as well all right thank you guys for volunteering mmm wait a second and then we'll get going so there's also I just wanted to let everybody know there's a sign-up sheet going around for the tribal consultation schedule Katie do we get this

[54:04] presentation all right so why don't we get started so tonight's conversation is really a continued dialogue from last year when counsel had discussed library district and a commitment that we made as a city to the Library Commission as well as the library champions to really focus on financial sustainability of our library this was an aspect that was really a cornerstone of the library master plan as well so that we can really look at

[55:03] library services in the future and achieving components of the library master plan so some of this information will be information that you've heard last year both from David and Katie as well as revised or updated information relative to financials I will also indicate that Kim Sutter is in the audience Kim is recognized throughout the state of Colorado as a library district guru I'll call it and is available for council questions all right Thank You Tanya I'm David gear with the City Attorney's Office and I guess I'll just ask him to come up to the table now because I got a feeling that you guys are gonna shortly put him on the hot seat also here in the audience from our office is Janet Michaels who has been one of the laboring ORS in terms of doing the legal work associated with

[56:01] understanding district formation and Alissa Denver from the city manager's office who's been helping us as well with that research so at your table there are some materials that are intended to respond to some of the questions that were raised during the council agenda meeting this week there are some materials on districts and the formation process used in those districts as well as some information related to how assets were distributed upon a library assets distributed upon the formation of a district one of the interesting things that I pulled from the materials that David Farnum put together tonight was that there has been one district since Fort Collins that has done so bye-bye by way of petition and election and the Fort Collins pooter Valley district was formed in 2006 and it's been one of the

[57:04] it's been a district formation process since we've been dealing with the boulder library champions since they started their petitioned and that we've kind of used as one of our guiding touchstones in terms of how another community has gone about dealing with the question of district formation and then of course the process associated with that as you were all aware the boulder library champions submitted and circulated a petition with the objective of a forming at a library district it was presented last summer to the county clerk for signature verification as we all know the timelines in the library law are fast-moving for forming a district and as this process was unfolding the city asked the library districts or at the library champions to withdraw their petition for for consideration at the 2018 election and let the city have a robust conversation about library funding so tonight we're

[58:02] kicking off that discussion so this kind of as I've tried to both understand and explain a library district formation there's a lot of repetition in the two approaches that are used to form library districts but basically there are two process processes the first is by way of ordinance or resolution and that looks a lot like a basic standard legislative process by the governing entities involved and once that happens there are a variety of actions that happen one of the most important being that upon the formation of a district you will end up having to appoint a Board of Trustees and enter into an IgA with that district as you see in the chart the same thing happens

[59:00] as you're doing the petition process that you move through the process and the the library law often tells you please look again at doing it by the ordinance or resolution process so there's a process actually in the petition process where you look at forming it by a resolution and then if you don't do that the city has an opportunity to either opt out of the district or let it go to an election so can we go to the next slide so I'm going to go into a little more detail about each of the processes now so if the establishment is by resolution or ordinance the process includes the following steps first there's a public hearing following notice that will be held by any governmental unit that's participating in forming the public library so in this case the city and the county public hearings included discussion of

[60:02] the purposes of the library district to be formed where more than one governmental unit is involved there is a discussion of the powers rights obligations response and responsibilities financial and otherwise for each governmental unit the resolution itself when adopted forms the district but it describes the district's legal service area it's specified specify a mill levy in property tax dollars to be imposed or other type of funding that will be used to fund the district and it states that it must state that the electors of the Library District must approve the amount of a tax levy not previously established by a resolution or ordinance or previously previously approved by the electors so upon adoption of the resolution or ordinance the legislative bodies one as

[61:00] I noted they established the district as a public library and provide for its financial support beginning on or before January 1st of the following year so that's a pretty quick time or if the tax has not previously been established upon the formation or upon the adoption of some measure to approve a tax to fund the district there is a board that's anticipated with a library district and when the does when that is created each entity appoints a couple of Representatives to actually appoint the first board for the library district and thereafter each of the legislative bodies will ratify the members of the new library district board the next Lane the board in terms of steps that has to

[62:04] happen after the resolution within 90 days unless mutually extended by the parties there should be an IG a draft and of course the you know a board of directors would would be seated within that time timeframe go to the next one so this is a petition process it's a little bit different but many of the steps actually are quite similar basically there it starts with the committee of petitioners that develop a petition and it will request the establishment of a library district it names the governmental units establishing the library and in this case that's Boulder County in the city of Boulder there's a description of a legal service area for the district and then there is a specification of the mill levy to be imposed and the type of

[63:01] funding that the electors have to approve to fund the district the petition itself is addressed to the Board of County Commissioners and there are requirements related to how the costs I'm not going to go into that tonight but how the cost of the district election are allocated amongst the various parties once in receipt of the petition this is what the Caddy has again the library law directs you to consider passing a resolution or ordinance at the onset and forgo the need for an election if that doesn't happen then the question of establishment of the district will go to a vote at a November election and then of course there is a Tabor tax measure that can be held concurrent with the formation of the district or passed at a later date it's right before the

[64:03] process it's right at this process this time in the process where there is a window of time where if the city if if one of the establishing entity that that have a public library don't want to participate they can opt out there's a very small window for when in this case it would be the city could opt out of the district and not participate thereafter once in the district when you read the library law it appears that it's very difficult to get out of the district then of course once you've had your election the process is pretty much the same as the resolution process in that you have to appoint a board enter

[65:01] into an IgA and address the you know how all of the governmental entities will interact with each other to support the library district so with that I think I will call it a closed and I open it up for your questions thanks David that was really helpful I don't know if this goes to Kimmel or David you so just to recap I have two questions one is just to confirm my understanding and the second is to I'll follow one question so David as I understood it um if a petition is delivered first of all the petition is delivered to the county that's crass all right and then once the petition is delivered to the county then cities that are affected by that petition have a choice of either passing a resolution three choices passing a resolution submitting the question of

[66:01] establishment for a vote or opting out is that correct that's correct those are the three choices let me have different time frames but those are your basically three paths up connect I agree as well sure does I have a fault questions yeah just as part of that the vote that is you know you can either form the district or vote who what would be the boundaries of the the voting district the boundaries are established by the petitioning committee and so the vote that would be held would be run by the county within the boundaries of the district as presented by the petitioners that's correct thank you okay thanks and then my second question is so the petition petition has submitted the cities within that boundary has Sam described can either passed a resolution establishing the district I'm submitting an establishment question for a vote or opt out are they also is this is the is there also a requirement as a result of a petition to

[67:02] have a table vote is that required as a result of the petition it sounds like it's required if you don't pass a resolution or opt out it sounds like it you're required to have established my voter you also require to have a tabor vote as well the statute provides that within a 90-day period after formation the establishing entities have to provide for the funding of the district so that is typically done by having a table vote we have some districts that have never done that Gilpin County supports its library district on its own so can it change next year but establishing nd would be who under that scenario in this case it would be the county or and/or the city of Boulder so you could have continued to support your library system the way you are now and allowed the library district to then go on and figure out its funding sources if the if the boundaries established by the

[68:02] petition are extraterritorial that are beyond the city who who must you said the statute requires that that somebody must fund that who's the somebody if it's beyond the city of Boulder County the county must fund it so if there was so there's no requirement that there be a table vote is that correct there's no requirement there is a requirement for funding to be established funding to be established so you could have a situation where petitioners filed and there's an establishment vote right an establishment vote but for a period of time maybe indefinitely or year or two either the county or the city or some collection of government entities could fund that organize that district for a while and if they decided they wanted to do something different they could always go to the table what is that correct correct got it thanks Kim Thanks and I just sir if I might ask you speak a little bit more into the microphone a little hard here thank you

[69:03] am i understanding the process correctly that in effect we're going to if there's a vote the vote would precede the negotiation of the IGA yes because you haven't formed the district yet is there a way to engage in a process of negotiation to determine what the IGA will look like before going to a vote I'm a little uncomfortable in not going to our voters and being able to inform them as to all of the substantive characteristics of what we're asking them to approve whether it's leasing buildings conveying fee title to buildings and on and on it would be nice if we could inform them of those things at the time we ask for their approval is that possible mr. walz that's an excellent question and we've but we found over the years is

[70:02] we strongly encourage the formation by resolution for the very reason that you're pointing out because then you have in order to have an idea you have to have two sides to negotiate that arrangement if you form the entity by resolution and then within that resolution say that it'll be dissolved if the funding doesn't take place you now have the Library District with whom you can negotiate the IGA before the election so that when you go to the taper or the funding election everybody knows what they're voting on and is there a way to extend the IGA the negotiation of the IJ period now that you've mentioned 90 days yes it allows for an extension okay risk is there any limit on the extension there's nothing in the statutes and there are no cases but I think it could actually go on for

[71:01] a long time but remember during that time somebody else is funding the library district and and in the cases that you've seen where it's been extended well let me ask it this way how long does it typically take to negotiate an IgA it takes a lot less time than you would think it sounds very complicated but if once you've determined what you want to do with the library district real estate and you know you're not going to keep the books you're going to turn those over to the library district once you figure out how you want to handle the personnel and their employment benefits which is again is not that difficult it can go into the IGA fairly quickly the IGA can then also extend the time period over which these transitions take place so pooter in Fort Collins we drafted that IgA so that the library district was buying services from the city so

[72:01] accounting purchasing all kinds of things go through the city the library district pays the city for those services and most of that has continued since the formation of the library because it worked out so well for everybody so would one possible path be that we could form it by resolution and then we negotiate an IgA with the county that would lay out and then the district right with a with the trustees that would lay out the forum that that would take and then say put in a contingency on passage of a taper vote and then say okay in the meantime business as usual we run the library exactly the same way it runs today funded the same way but that if the taper vote passes then the new IgA kicks in at that point that's exactly what we do okay great thank you

[73:00] I call it qui on that and in using Heron's model that presumably could also happen if there was a an establishment vote as well in other words one one option in response to a petition would be to pass a resolution another response as I think you've indicated is that you could have an establishment vote without that funding and if that's established by the vote of the people then the funding can come at some later point as well is that correct that's correct the problem with going that direction is you you miss out on that opportunity on the front end to and from the voters of what the real about the Williams yeah what is that those marks point who decides when the so you know so let's say the the voters have established a district in it let's say it's beyond the range of us city boundaries who decides what how and when of a taper vote is at the county is that the city who decides that again it's part of the establishing

[74:02] entities duty so if it's in the petition the petition would probably say at the next general election but really it would be part of the if you didn't do that on the and and you established by resolution you could agree that that could take place over time or it must take place within a certain amount of time going back to Fort Collins what we did there was to form the district we entered into the IgA and then within the the formation resolution it said that the district must become funded self-funded within like three election cycles yeah thank you for that but my question was more along the lines of if if the district was formed by a vote as opposed to my resolution so you mentioned the establishing entity decides when the vote is who is the establishing entity in this case it would be the county the county and possibly the city if you choose to participate so so we if the

[75:00] petition is filed we go down the path of an establishing vote yes um it's the county who does decide whether the paper vote happens the same time or as some subsequent time is that right yes but typically that would be already be in the petition well okay that was there was the prior question if it's in the petition must is the requirement even if the county and the city don't want it there's a requirement that you must have a taper boat yes okay so that was a little different than the answer I think you gave me before okay thank you mark let me ask you the question in a little differently what can go wrong and what do you do about it if something goes wrong I'm sure that not every district has has been a seamless positive experience what what's the downside they actually have been very positive all of them have turned out wonderfully

[76:00] so far you know the places that I over the years have feared something was going to go wrong mostly had to do with a situation like yours where you have an established municipal library and I always feared that somewhere along the way somebody's gonna say we're not gonna let you use the library building or we're not going to give you the books we're gonna sell them to somebody else that's never happened but if it did it would leave the Library District as an independent government entity that would then have to go figure out where it's gonna house the libraries and where it's going to get its materials and books and one follow up if assets were actually transferred to the library district does the city retain any control over the disposition of those assets yes some of our library districts the libraries are rented by the district from this one of

[77:00] the possibilities is a a transfer of fee ownership to go to the buildings yes would the library district then be authorized if they chose to do so to mortgage out those buildings for additional funding no two things with regard to that they don't have the authority under the statutes to do a mortgage to use their property to lien their property their pledges their tax revenue if they're going to borrow funds I was I gonna say in Adams County what we did was we transferred all the library buildings to the library district with the right of reverter on all of the buildings so if the library did something with the buildings that the county didn't want they could pull the buildings back and then as time went by we ended up getting rid of every old library building and building new ones and each time we would just say can you

[78:02] will you release the right of reverter so we can sell the building to help fund the new libraries and they did different one of them so I have a follow-up on that one is one of them methods of dealing with the assets is it possible to just lease or turn over the buildings but not the land yes again that would just be a lease a lease of the building the city could continue to own the building and the land and the library district would just lease the building so would it be possible to have the library district own the building but not the land yes it would get complicated the agreement would be complicated because you'd have to figure out what happens if the city wants to do something different with the land how do you unwind the building and

[79:03] but it can be done thank you amir baig sorry Sam so following Bob's questions again petitions are submitted to the county so hundred signatures and the decision is made by the county and the city to have a formation it would it be the county in the city or would it just be the county we want to I'm trying to figure out who can say we want a formation election yeah it would just be the county if you went strictly with the petition and then the city would have the opportunity to just opt out but that would be the city's only opportunity so in other words the county at that point once the petitions put in place the county can form the district by resolution yes so that's the county's choice once the

[80:00] petition lands the county can form by resolution correct or the county can refer to vote formation vote correct and if the county refers it to a formation vote you said the disadvantage there is that you don't get a chance to explain to the voters what the terms would be yes for an eventual tabor vote yes however if the formation was successful then there would be the board of the district appointed correct and then there would be negotiations of an IgA between the board the county and the city yes and bringing the city in - that would be a matter of courtesy or comedy because if the district's been formed by the county presumably the city would have opted out I'm trying to follow that because why

[81:00] would presumably the city have opted out because if the county forms the district and the city doesn't opt out does the county own any city property no what you would have then is a city library and you would have a library district which encompass the city yep and they would be overlapping taxing authorities on the city so the city already has its taxing authority leaving aside the very small point three Mills property tax dedication the city generates its money through sales tax and through a little bit of property tax but so the city would continue funding its library district and there would be this overlay and so then wouldn't there be the possibility of a negotiation between the city the county and the district governance which is the board excuse me Siri Siri wants to talk to us

[82:03] so I guess I'm gonna walk it through again they're gonna series can explain instead of you so we have we have petitions have been submitted County forms the dis referred to vote or form the district whichever votes successful now there's an overlay there's a library district and there's Boulder City which has its libraries and presumably discussions would begin then if the library district wanted to go forward and fund itself it would say city library system would you want to be part of this would you want to see the council loan or lease or give or whatever your buildings to us so that negotiation would still happen at that

[83:00] point could and presumably yes yeah but the parties are willing to do that so the city hasn't opted so because the city has mopped it out everything is still on the table the district is formed and then there could be a negotiation and then a Tabor about correct the following November which would then decide how to fund any transfer of properties so there would still be the possibility of negotiating the the relationship between the city library system and the library district correct the only problem with that is what was noted by mr. Wallace then you're going to the electors and saying form this library district we don't really know how this is going to turn out but go ahead and form it well I mean I guess it does you know I'll return to this later but I guess what it does do is ask if the will of the voters within this circle which includes a whole bunch of older voters

[84:01] is that they want a district to happen yes and so it the the formation question it doesn't specify I mean the Tabor question is what's going to specify the dollars and cents and you know all the arrangements will have been made and how much are my tax is going to increase and that's why you have a table vote is because taxes will increase so it seems to me that there is a pathway there which still allows the city to negotiate the agreement between the library properties of the city and the district which would then result in a table Road yes there's nothing in the statute that would prevent what you're saying okay I've never seen that done but I'm just trying to understand what this kind of as David Gere described it the blunt instrument of the statute as it's written allows us to do or not do thank you hmm so I come back to the discussion

[85:00] you had with mark because you indicated that the disadvantage of of submitting a question to the voters before you negotiated an idea i GA was that the voters wouldn't know all the terms right correct and so they asked the question do you want to form a district without necessarily knowing the tax amount or what the terms are but if we form up by resolu don't we have exactly the same problem it's just a different number of people right well yeah instead of having 30,000 people who don't have information we have nine people who don't have information and we're still making the same decision without without niga haven't been negotiated or the taper I'm out enough known at all that all that information that would be really helpful to either nine people or thirty thousand people is going to be missing in both instances is that correct yes but understand that when you form the district by resolution all you're really doing is creating the entity the board so it's a shell how is that different if there is a community vote without a taper of out if they if they vote to form a district and that's the

[86:01] only question isn't that the same thing that would be the same okay so it's it's thirty thousand people without information or nine people without information it's the same problem there isn't it yes okay thank you I'm Matt I'm sorry yeah follow up and then I've got juni and then Mira Bai and then err Rachel's been in the line oh I'm sorry Rachel I'll put Rachel ahead of Aaron I'll wait on my follow up thank you juni thank you I hear two different things from what Sam said and what you said previously before Sam went and explained because you mentioned that the district could be created by the county if the city apps out meaning that we're having this discussion here if we decide we won't go at it by resolution someone can bring a petition and have the city do it so that means that we've we've already opted out because we've decided that we're not

[87:02] going to participate in the process am I correct there's actually a formal opt-out that takes place if there's a petition so as David said when the petition is delivered it has to have a boundary drawing so that boundary presumably would include Boulder at that point before the county moves that to an election or forms it by resolution there's a period of time in which the city can say we don't want to be part of it typically what would happen again this hasn't happened in my experience but if you did that the district would probably not be formed because it's not going to have a tax base so does that mean this discussion we're having there's two or three opportunities there's the opportunity of doing it by the city or the county or going to the electors yes if if the boundaries are gonna go

[88:00] outside of the city it needs to go to the county okay and also I wanted to ask a question about the transfer of assets what would be the challenge is if we had the county going forward with doing it instead of the city yeah the county doesn't have any library assets so the idea here would be to have the city library assets moved to the library district so there is nothing that the county could really provide except money can I ask a follow-up of Kim so would you mind just explaining in your experience how the issue of transferring assets are most commonly dealt with what we've done in every situation is go ahead and draft an IgA assuming what people want and then just noting in there all of the negotiation points that would then come to you as the City Council and you would change the terms

[89:03] however you want and again it's an it's an agreement between two parties so if you don't sign off on it it doesn't go anywhere so it becomes a negotiation everyone I've done has gone much more quickly than I expected and like I said earlier I've always worried about at some point somebody's gonna say we're not going to give you these buildings or we're not gonna listen to you which is okay then the library district has to find another way to provide the libraries but it's just never happened because everyone seems to be on board to to make the libraries better for everyone right now we have a situation and Southwest La Plata down by Durango so we had the district formed and funded this last November the libraries are in the schools so the school district and the

[90:02] county were the forming entities but we didn't get the boundaries figured out until too late for the county assessor to draw the maps so that we could collect our taxes of this year so we're working on an IgA right now where the school district is going to go ahead and fund the libraries as it always has through 2020 then 2021 the library district will get its first tax funding and we'll have an arrangement where the library district will begin paying back the school district for the 2020 expenses so there's lots of flexibility once you have the two entities that can talk to each other and negotiate the IGA before I call on mayor but I want it to just follow up on the question that David us you mentioned that you draft an IgA and then you give it to the parties and then they start negotiating so it's not I had envisioned until then that the parties came to the table and hashed it

[91:03] out it doesn't quite work that way it's like you're passing paper around and people are marking it up yeah you know it could work that way but it would be so hard to try to have two two boards negotiating with one another so there's certainly nothing wrong with doing that but it's just in my experience it's simpler to have an outline of here's what we're gonna do and then you negotiate the deal points along the way and and you're done as well please sorry I'll give you in just second but the so to the so the IGA is that's something that then doesn't go into effect until we sign it correct correct and so we would approve that as a body right yes I guess Bob to your earlier point in terms of we would we might form a district without knowing everything but we would still have to approve the details so we actually would have I believe full knowledge before we finalize that 9ga yeah and one of the things to keep in mind

[92:00] I'm hearing in your questions not confusion but you really have to keep in mind that once the library district board is formed it's a separate government so now if it wants to do something it needs to talk to you and you have to agree and if you don't agree it's not going to happen so it's separate you're separate you're two separate entities negotiating a contract and if someone doesn't agree with a point then that's not going to work that way I'm not confused because I thought the IGA happened Aaron you've now confused me with your question and your answer Kim because I think was inconsistent with your answer to my question is the IGA negotiated before or after the district is formed by resolution it would be it would be negotiated after the district is reformed after I was initially you would form a resolution without knowing the IGA terms is that correct correct okay yeah and I was I know it's I'm just saying but we would have to approve the

[93:01] IGA before it could go into effect so that well we might find form the district without the knowledge it couldn't go forward without our then subsequent approval if any amendments would be true in every instance and mr. Yates typically we would put in the resolute the formation resolution that you are forming it by resolution and if the IGA and/or the funding doesn't occur within a certain amount of time it's dissolved nearby I'm jumping back to what some of the stuff Sam was talking about and I think you've kind of answered it but the way my brain operates I'm just confirming here so if the county were to go create a district and we opted out you said something about overlaying so Boulder City has our library and now the county has one two options here are the city residents getting doubly taxed or is the county gonna fall apart because they don't have

[94:01] a tax base and so therefore it wouldn't move forward the ladder that's what I thought and then the second question was let's say county creates the district City opsin is there I just want to clarify in this one to make sure I understand is there a second vote for City County residents to vote on the increase of taxes that they will be paying to fund the district there will be a vote that's a second whether it's a second vote it could happen in the same election but yes it's two votes okay great thank you for clarifying Rachel thank you I'm gonna follow up a little bit or in invert Mark's question he asked what can go wrong I'm curious how we tee it up to best go smoothly and right and as a voter I think I understand your concern Bob about doing a resolution without having the IGA but

[95:01] at least we would be doing the resolution and entering quickly into an IgA and then getting that information in front of voters so nobody would be really taking any big steps without knowing the numbers but I don't know that I'm as just myself as a voter if I would be excited to have this really blank cryptic question do you want a district and then a year later do you want to fund the district that just seems a bit clunky and I don't really know what I'm voting for in the first one so and then the second one I might think I just I just did that like why is this back in front of me so I'm wondering how do you how is it most clean for voters and most likely to go smoothly in your opinion yeah I have a firm opinion on that over the years the the smoothest thing and I think this is for you to decide but I think it's for the benefit of everybody when the district is formed by resolution the first reason

[96:00] is if if the county approves a petition your choice now is to opt out or stay in if you decide to form by resolution the county would will be fine with that Kenny's are strong on library districts and it doesn't it barely affects them what we've done in the past is have them pass a resolution and have the city pass a resolution and their mutually dependent on one another within that resolution you can include things like if the library district doesn't obtain funding or doesn't enter into an IgA within so many years it's dissolved and now you have the entity in existence again it's a shell but you can work out with it all of the details so that when you go to a vote the voters know what's going on and why you've chosen this option and typically in that first resolution where you format you

[97:01] would also say we think this should go to the voters but you need to know what you're voting on so we're forming the entity and if you vote against the funding it'll just go away thank you and then do you have to specifically in the in the tabor vote exclude a vote for yes or no on the district like this the Tabor have to or can the boat say would you like a district and and are you saying yes to this that's actually kind of a believe it or not a bond attorneys question I think you have to have two questions so you'd want to either have to or just the one that's only for the TAVR yes Aaron mark and then Adam thank you I'm like Bob and Aaron I am delighted to confess to my confusion Rachel said as well if

[98:07] I'm understanding this correctly my resolution we can build in whatever contingencies we desire in terms of approval of an IG a proper funding are there any other contingencies that that would normally be built into them it's probably probably not because your i GA is the thing you're going to be most worried about and then we can move from from that to the negotiation of the IgA and ultimately from that to a vote with two questions asking the voters to approve formation and to approve the funding at that point you'd only have one question and there would be the funding question because you've already formed the entity by your resolution but the entity is subject to the funding so it's dissolution is subject to the funding so

[99:00] it's formed as a shell and then if it's not funded your residue your formation resolution says it goes away how we prohibited from at the point where we have a negotiated IgA asking the people of Boulder whether they like the concept it may not be a formal table vote but at some point we ought to be bringing them into this conversation yeah you're certainly not prohibited from doing that but but at that point it would be part of a political campaign to say here's what's going to happen if you vote YES for the funding and here's what's going to happen if you vote no if you vote no the Library District is as though it never existed if you vote yes the terms of this IgA will be implemented and it'll carry on from there okay thank you quick question regarding the resolution path since the formation of the board is

[100:00] one of the first things you do can you set rules for forming the board prior to actually forming the board the rules for forming the initial board are in the statutes okay and this is one of the reasons I think you want to form by resolution because remember the petition is in the county's hands the establishing entities are the ones that choose the library district board in that case it's the county if they agree to form by resolution and you agree to form by two to join in with them to form by resolution now you can set up a system where you're choosing the library district trustees they're called not directors or you're doing that in conjunction with the county most of our library districts where there was a city being that had a library that was formed in this way the city ends up doing all the appointments so I understand that much but you can't make additional rules in

[101:00] advance of assigning the first board well I'm not sure what kind of rules you like I think you say a residency rule for a couple of the seats something along those lines yeah so if you're doing the appointment you only choose residents can you then make those rules as part of the IGA or yes yeah in fact you're required to come up with some rules in the IGA one of the issues with a residency you could certainly have a residency requirement but oftentimes entities want to have a an area you've got to have some represented from here and represented from here there's nothing that authorizes that in the statute but we have written into agas that you will that the library district will strive to have a representative from each of these areas gotcha and it sounds like this is just a statement on a question but the the vote

[102:02] for funding really is the vote for the district period like at the end of the day like I don't know how much more we have to discuss that well I have a follow-up question two years before I Colin Bob and exam which has the to your question about the rules of the board is if the city goes in on the resolution with the county is the initial you said the initial board is ruled by statute as part of the IGA can the things like the size of the board and the number of representatives from in city and out of city be part of the IGA the size of the board is either 5 or 7 that's set by statute I've never thought about whether

[103:02] you could say you have to have you know three people from the city and two from the County and the reason that I've never had to deal with it is because generally the county doesn't care you know once once there the Library District is established the library district board ends up really working hard to get people on the board that are library supporters and then presenting them to whoever is going to do the appointments and the appointments is that part of who who's appointing body is is that part of the IGA no that would be part of the formation resolution so that's what I was saying if if the petition goes to the county and the county forms the county would now be the establishing entity with the authority to appoint the board where if you did a joint resolution with the county in the city to form the entity within that resolution you could agree that the you

[104:02] would agree that the city is going to be part of that appointment process so the statute says that the establishing entities do the appointment so in this case it would be the city and the county and and you're saying that the county generally doesn't care so it would be mostly the city then yes and then after the district is established then does the board become a self-perpetuating board it's self-perpetuating but the appointments are approved by the establishing entities which in in perpetuity it would be the city in the county yes thank you Jim you know we've been struggling a little bit with this question of what the the deal is I guess I'll call what the terms are whether nine people or twelve people that would be nine council and three County commissioners was which we have here or

[105:00] 30,000 people decide that some some combination of that has to decide either an election or through some sort of joint resolution I assume getting back to Aaron's point about the IgA that because these are the city assets the city is gonna have certain terms non-negotiables is gonna say we're gonna require the following thanks right I mean the IGA hasn't negotiated yet but since there are assets we can kind of say these are the things we're gonna agree to and these are the things we're not gonna agree to so that could be another resolution or to the voters if we took this establishing question to the voters in other words we could say dear voters do you want a district and by the way here are the terms we have a negotiating IgA because there's no other side to the table but we're just telling you because these are our assets these are the thieves of the terms it's gonna be leased property and it's gonna be X number of mils and it's gonna be this and this and this we can basically say under these terms would you exist right

[106:00] right yes okay it either way it becomes part of your political campaign we did have a situation in Aurora where the city didn't want to do an agreement mm-hmm and the voters shot everything down because they didn't I don't wanna say it this way but half different they didn't trust the city to to abide by what they thought was going to happen can you elaborate on this a little bit more access intriguing so just open a new so the city the city established some terms does that right correct they established some terms and then the establishment vote went to the voters yes and the voters voted it down voted it down okay because they didn't like the terms of Z and it had suggested were or they didn't think the city was gonna follow through on those terms the latter okay thanks and then what happened that was it it's still a city library and it's woefully underfunded

[107:02] sadly I had Sam after Bob and then mark so I'd like to go back to make sure I'm just good so I had always thought this resolution was gonna be a City resolution saying we're willing to do this but it sounds like it's a mutual resolution so the city in the county each have the same resolution and the terms are the same and they both execute this resolution together they jointly execute it and then the establishing entities determine the appropriate boundaries so in that resolution the boundaries are determined by the city in the county correct establishing it by resolution yes and then then we establishing entities appoint board yes

[108:02] so if we do this by resolution the city and county appoint the board yes so can we in that establishing resolution dictate that the city appoints all the board members yes okay so that's key because you said you said that once and you said very quietly and I thought I heard it and then you said it kind of again but then you said the county doesn't care you answered I said that well you repeated what he said he said generally the county doesn't care and so what that means to me is well we wouldn't just leave it that way you know that it's gonna be joint city and county and that's twelve people and how is that gonna work and so we could say because these are city assets that are going to go to the library district that we want to be able to appoint the board members and then going forward appointments are approval so the board's gonna appoint the new board members the City Council

[109:02] could approve the appointment of those board members so we could agreed with the county that because these are mostly city assets that are gonna be given and because presumably our voters would still like some say over how those assets are going to be used that a way that our voters can work through the council to have a say about the operation of the district is through the City Council in this joint resolution that we're going to sign it can dictate that the City Council will be the body that approves appointments to the district board is that correct yes but let me just clarify what the law says is that the establishing entities appoint the board how does so so if you are if you and the county are the establishing entities you can figure out the process by which you're going to do the appointments so you can certainly agree on something that gives

[110:00] the city really control my comment about the counties is that most of the entities we have have this County overlay and the county commissioners really don't participate some of them are just County Libraries so they they very much participate but generally that's not so they just want somebody to say here's are the people we want on the board and they say good deal and it's done yeah it just makes me uncomfortable that we would need a process I mean whether it was we all vote equally you know the nine City Council members and the three County commissioners to approve or not approve we vote as a body or if it's just the City Council because we have a lot more skin in the game really then the county does it seems like we would want to and are able to so it says the appoint the establishing entities but the establishing entities presumably can decide whether they want

[111:01] to participate or not each of their own because I think this is a key point as far as how the folks who have built this library over time and who in fact it's going to be within the boundaries for the first table feature all facilities will be and so it seems to me like it was key to understand that and I just don't want us to make a decision and have the wrong information yes but it seems like this the joint resolution has some flexibility in it we have to do five or seven but the joint resolution and the IGA are the two points where there is some structure that can be negotiated and established and then operated under each of those yes okay and to clarify something you said right at the beginning of your comment or your question when we formed Fort Collins

[112:03] we had the county commissioners adopt a resolution as they needed to because was going outside of the city and then we had the city adopt a resolution rather than those being a joint resolution or the same resolution the county resolution basically said we're forming the entity and upon approval of a resolution by the city it's done and that way the city could do whatever it needed to in its resolution and the county's approval was effective as soon as the city's resolution was effect that included the appointment so what I've described is a method of appointment that would be primarily focused on the City Council approving appointments to the board and if the county wrote that blank check so Larimer County wrote a blank check to the city of Fort Collins on the governance structure of the appointment of the board yes and so when

[113:01] the City Council of Fort Collins wrote whatever they wrote that became automatically approved correct okay thank you just and yeah we have CUNY and then marker did you have a colloquy just a quick follow-up so okay go ahead sir any anyway so if we if we could quite conceivably communicate with the county commissioners and set up a similar structure if they're willing right so and then just just for clarity that process that Sam described would then be in perpetuity the process by which the partially self-perpetuating board would get approved yes just to make sure that we're crystal clear because that answer is important to me so any board appointment made by the board so presumably the board of seven say

[114:01] somebody terms out or resigns for some reason the remaining board members would appoint the replacement subject approval by the establishing entities and if the establishing the entities had said City Council will make the approval then any future board member appointed by the district board would need to be approved by the City Council correct okay thank you and that process can require that the city take over the entire process so it doesn't have to come from the library board we like to set it up so that the library board does the initial interviews and lines up people to send to the establishing entity for approval just because that way you get library people that are really interested in libraries but it doesn't have to be that way so your suggestion if I heard your what is commonly done is that library boards are

[115:02] filling a vacancy on their board the the districts they make a nomination to the establishing entity board which could be the City Council in this case and the City Council approves or doesn't or they they select if they nominate three for one seat the City Council can then select one of the three for that vacancy correct okay thank you and I follow up again yeah please are in it and then after Erin will have we have Junya and then mark and in the final form of how that whole governance structure would work would be determined by the IGA is that correct a portion of it would be in the IGA but most of setting that structure would be in the resolution okay so you get you do most of in the resolution and then tae-bo on an IgA the resolution kind of creates the DNA for the library district and this is how it exists so you lock that in permanently thank you

[116:00] I don't have three questions for you because we're talking we're still talking about establishing entity and I wanted to hear from you whether you think this is something that the right now you're speaking with us when it comes to establishing but is this is this something that the city commissioners even considering yes the county commissioners the they if they're presented with a petition or a request they will I don't know if they've to what extent they've been approached so far again every Board of County Commissioners ever worked for with was just they're on board it's done so that means if we decide let's say we don't know whether they will know okay and the way to think about this is or I should have probably defined this earlier establishing entities can be any government or several working together so a school district can be a

[117:02] establishing entity a county a municipality and I think as well my question to you because again you mentioned earlier without a resolution what is the chances if we were to go to the voters what are the chances of it passing and from what I'm hearing from you unlikely we have passed them mm-hmm it's just so much more difficult because again nobody really knows what you're voting on other than some funding and something to do with libraries so in my belief it's much better to get all of that pinned down or at least close to pinned down ahead of time so that you know what's going on you know how the appointments are going to go the county knows the library board knows what's going to happen and then you also have a library district board at that point who can go out and promote and run the election so otherwise it's going to be run by the establishing entities and the

[118:03] people with the most invested are those library board people and also when it comes to the IGA if if we decide to do it by resolution we'll have a greater opportunity to control how it is formed yes okay thank you and Junie just as a reminder there's nine of us and three of them mark and then Rachel I'm gonna pass Sam's question answered mine okay great Rachel do we have a list of questions that we're answering tonight can we flash those up so that I know if I have other questions that make sense we're still going through Katie's and presentations on yeah and the primary purpose is really to let you cross examined Kim and learn what you need to learn about

[119:00] district formation and you know kind of somebody who has real-world experience in forming districts I want to continue the cross-examination of him Kim are the boundary if a district is formed by resolution in response to a petition are the boundaries established by the petitioners or by the resolution parties they should be established by the petition so the petition establishes the boundaries and the resolution parties basically accept those boundaries or don't pass the resolution they can't change those they do get changed strictly what the statute says is the petition sets forth what the boundaries are to be and then the petition is approved or not approved but almost

[120:01] everyone I've been and there's been some negotiation for various reasons under the threat of opt-out in other words if you don't change the boundaries we're gonna just opt out yeah yeah okay so that leads me to a second question what's the opt-out timeframe in other words petitioners dropped in day zero how quickly does from day zero does the city have to opt out there's a window of time that's thirty days long and it's the 30 days before the county commissioners take action on the measure that will put it on the ballot how do we know when they're gonna do that well the first thing that they have to do once once a petition is submitted yeah and I believe that the the common practice is the notice is provided with the petition the county immediately gives notice to the city that a petition has been submitted so does that but it's the same day or the next day okay I didn't quite follow the 30 days because it was abused before or and after 30 days so addition is is delivered and addition of notice

[121:00] or whatever is delivered to the county on day 0 when must the city decide to opt out or not opt out it's 30 days so what the statute says is that the petitioner committee has to submit their petition at least 90 days before a tabor election about that pardon so the county commissioners typically you're gonna put that on the ballot sometime in the month of August and whatever date they set for considering that item subtract 30 days and it has to be before that yeah it's not the most before 30 days before a date that they set which we don't know about ahead of time it's not a model of clarity but they have to give you notice yeah they who the county has to give us notice that we're gonna set the election on a certain day and that's going to be at least 30 days in the future yes and you have this time period to opt out so

[122:02] they have to give a 60 days notice then right if let's say they're gonna told us on August 1 we're gonna decide on the ballot question no it would be the same 30 days so we have the month of July Otis that's not going to address it and that you have 30 days to opt out okay so sometime in June they'd have to tell us August ones the magic date then our decision date and then we'd have the month of July top-down is that correct yeah and what but David's saying is true I think everyone we've ever done that notice comes out with the notice that a petition has been filed so there's it's not a it's not a fixed period of time it is in the way the statute is written but really if you opt out early you're out it's um okay I don't understand but I know it sounds silly but the way the statute reads you've got to do it during this 30-day period but in truth that 30-day period is really the notice period so they have to give you at least

[123:02] 30 days notice hey you think the county has to give the city 30 days notice yeah and then during that 30 date from so when they deliver notice we'll call that day zero yes okay the delivers a notice and then we have 30 days to decide to opt out or not yes got it okay just a quick hypothetical we established this the the taxation is passed then it turns out to be inadequate ten years from now we mere passengers on the bus as the library district goes out for additional funding do we have any input to that or if they want to double or triple the the middle of EoE just kind of waving at them and going have at it yeah it really becomes a political matter at that point so the library district is on its own and it can go out and try to double its funding whatever it needs to do and we have we

[124:02] have no input whatsoever other than through the appointment process of the trustees you don't thank you questions can't give this as established in the resolution can can the establishing entity let's say it's this city also remove trustees at will that's in the statute and you can appoint but you cannot remove yeah it has to be for cause okay and cause is defined in two ways one is within the library trustees own bylaws but the recent high-plains case we did in the court of appeals established that cause as defined in color out of law a B is also okay and is the term that is the term of time that someone serves is that establishment statute or is that establishment resolution it's established by statute okay how long is initially and then the rest is by the bylaws why laws which are

[125:01] established by the resolution of the established entity could be established by so even though you can't remove a trustee you could say that all the terms are one year for example and and then and then you'll never more than 364 days away from not reappointing somebody's eye right okay you probably want to say that but you could I just did I know okay so we're gonna move on to Katie's presentation though thanks Mary and hopefully you guys have less questions for me we they're all great wanted to provide some financial context to the discussion as well so as you think about formation and options we wanted to run through kind of what the total cost of a library system is what that means for a property owner and the type of revenue that may be raised from a district so in doing this there's a few assumptions that I wanted to just get clear I mean obviously there's a lot of scenarios but for the purpose of this analysis our assumption is that the city of boulders

[126:02] dedicated 0.33 mils to the library is eliminated and then for the purpose of the discussion we are also using a similar mill rate that the library champions are using so that you can hopefully see similar numbers between the two at 3.85 again moving target I do want to say that as Tonya mentioned we have updated the property tax since 2018 you know we had a reassess year and we have a different residential rate so if you do look back at some of those materials there will be some slight changes to the numbers but this is the most current so when we talk about total library cost versus budget it's important to know that there's kind of three different pieces to library cost one is the operating expense which is a budgeted number within the city's general fund the other is facilities maintenance or capital expenses and here what we did was really took a look at

[127:00] historical but also future planned capital needs to get sort of an average of what you might need every year related facility maintenance and capital and that's the 3.3 million dollars and then there's also this piece at the library to were to be its own district or even its own fund there's administrative overhead that costs the district or cost the library service and this is really related to Communication Service legal service finance risk HR that is currently provided by the general fund and so that isn't really included in their budget per se when you look at their budget but it is what we call an indirect cost so on average we look at the total cost of a library service to be close to 16 million which really aligns with some of the materials that the library champions have been estimating at just over 16 million dollars so moving on to kind of the budget piece it's important to know how current city of Boulder Library

[128:00] Department is funded like I said there is the point three three Mills that generates about 1.5 million dollars within this fund about 80% of that is from the dedicated property tax this one also does receive donations and some grants to comprise that 1.5 million dollars the remaining portion or the you know 80% of the funding is from the general fund and just as a reminder the general fund is comprised of sales tax property tax kind of other taxes and then other fees for service and so I just provided the breakdown so you can see how the general fund is allocated in that 7.5 million dollars this is a proposed kind of service boundary map that we showed in 2018 the red line of being the city of Boulder and then the little dots are actually patron counts again 2018 but we estimate that we capture about 63 to 65 percent

[129:02] of patrons within the red boundary or the city limits when you expand out the black boundaries which is the proposed boundary line for the district you capture upwards of 85 percent of the patrons within that black line actually quick question what's your definition of pagers at a some of you has been issued a library card at some point in the past I'm sorry David Farnum library nurse director the the grey dots actually represent households with a library card so and some if you counted them up it wouldn't come to whatever the total is because some addresses map to a P o box some map to a mobile home park the library cards never expire in other words if somebody in netherland came down one day got a library card in it ten years later we clear the database here so if you haven't used your library card in three years you're automatically kicked out so these are these are people who have these are active what we refer

[130:00] to as active library card users that was data from 2018 or late 2017 I think so we get about 13,000 new cardholders per year we probably drop around eight to nine thousand card holders per you of people who've either left town or university students who are no longer active and so we just plead their cards Rachel well-well Sapir there so if I look at like the top left and then the bottom left of the black there's a lot of empty no user space and a lot of yeah so there why did we include all of that well there were a lot of people who were involved in making this map and the critical thing was that the county told us that we had to draw the map along voting precincts and so some of the voting precincts that you see to the west don't have a lot of that really is empty space there's nobody living there there's it could be open space but it aligns with in some

[131:03] cases very large and oddly shaped voting precincts okay so moving on we wanted to talk about kind of the three different surface area Katie yeah can we go back to the previous side I just wanted to understand so the black is the proposed district boundary yep what's the Green sorry that is the Boulder Valley comp plan boundaries it's difficult because these don't fall within voting precinct lines so it's hard to kind of say how many voters it captures so that's why we're really focused on both city of Boulder and then the outside extended area all right thank you yep so that then translates to this next slide that has the three different service area lines again updated assessed values when you look at this we want to note here that we're showing again the assessed value which is the actual value of property

[132:01] multiplied by the assessment rate and so while the assessed value is roughly 50/50 and a lot of these instances the actual value on residential property is you know about four times as high because of the different assessment rates within the state of Colorado so you can see as you move boundary limits the revenue grows and so depending on again where the boundaries occur revenue generated by 3.85 Mills could range somewhere between 16 and 20 million dollars quick question so 80% what so the expanded service area being the proposed district boundaries and city boulder city limits so 80 percent of evaluation is in the city of Boulder city limits but only 65 percent of people served just making sure that we have those things separated so two thirds of the people served are within the boundaries but 80 percent of the

[133:00] valuation is within the boundaries thank you all right so what this means then for property tax our property owners if you assume a 3.85 mill rate on a 850 thousand dollar home which is about the average within the city of Boulder limits the increase to your property tax bill would be two hundred and thirty-four dollars on a commercial property it's much higher at you know nine hundred forty nine dollars a year again backing out that point three three mils you'll see that there will be a small decrease both residential and commercial so twenty dollars and eighty two respectively that would only go to the city of Boulder residents to be clear and then depending on the again the area service area that we look at the revenue generated can range between sixteen and twenty million dollars great I would like to bookmark for later so

[134:02] not tonight not the answer I mean looks like one figure of Merit that you could use is dollars per library patrons served and revenue dollars for library patrons served and it looks like that's different inside and outside the city limit I'd just be curious to know that number later yeah and another quick question is the entire difference between the two hundred thirty-four dollars and the $949 the Gallagher amendment that's correct so residential is assessed at seven point one five percent and commercial at twenty nine percent that is a stark difference I didn't realize it was quite so high we know how many commercial operations we have in Boulder that are above eight hundred and fifty thousand I don't have that office but have me that I would imagine a lot that number could get very substantial could it not as if

[135:01] you get to one and a half million two million three million for a commercial business that no chance to get interestingly large we can provide that breakdown okay another data request could you um I know you can have to make a few assumptions to get here for this would be really really helpful because we were talking about the value of the building but of course many of our commercial establishments or tenants who pay property tax on a pass-through basis triple net from their landlord could you uh maybe do a back the envelope and you vet could probably help you with this because they're doing a retail study and they know how much average rents are an average tax pass-through czar and so and so forth could you reflect that nine hundred and forty nine dollars as a percentage increase obviously you have to use some averages and maybe different parts that have different but just you know are we talking about a a one percent increase on the average tenant or a three percent you know are they paying twelve dollars in tax now they're gonna pay $14 two foot in tax was something like that well however you want to portray it but getting back to Mark's point like so we can understand

[136:01] what is that nine to two a typical retail or a commercial tenant sure thanks all right so we've showed this chart to but wanted to highlight if you add in three point eight five mills but back out the city is 0.33 kind of where does Boulder stand and so you'll notice on the third to the left is Boulder as it is currently and so our total mill rate the orange being kind of more of our county or School District mill rates and then the blue being what we're calling municipal services so it could either be in the form of a district or the city Boulder ranks about third in our comparable cities if you do a library district at three point eight five or you know even increase it within our own city budget it moves kind of in between now Louisville and Fort Collins and then again backing out the county because we don't have a lot of control over those ones it ranks about third

[137:01] lowest for municipal types of service up to the fifth lowest giselle so I have a request here um as we go forward and look could you rank fees as opposed to total Mills just take out the school district and just look at municipal services piece and what's our mill levy cap I'm pen remember 13 Mills by charter I'm sorry 13 mils sorry so we're at 11 point or essentially 12 Mills now mm-hmm so our cap is 13 mmm thank you so just a fall question so this increased from call it these round numbers 12 to 15 and a half would be about a 30% increase is that right am i in my mouth get your math in your heads quicker than mine but probably roughly 30% okay and that would require a charter change it would not if

[138:01] it's a district if we decide to fund you know if we put anything on the ballot that puts us up love 13 it would require I know you're gonna show us sales tax in a second but when you come back on March 17th can you blend those two together to talk about total tax burden again you'll have to make some assumptions about average families spend but I think you've done that for us before because in some instances were like you know third place on property taxes on place we're like on second place on sales tax but when you slam them together we're kind of like in first place for total tax burden if you could do a total tax Bergen burger would make a wonderful sometimes you want many great things I think if I waited yes so kind of to add to that um last week for the budget strategy meeting you provided a great report that broke out different state taxes by income levels would it be possible to do something like that we're just the city of Boulder yeah let me think about how we could do something like that that'd be great thank you okay

[139:05] so before you go spend all the money in one place just wanted to remind council members of conversations that we had last April so again depending on a library district structure the general fund savings or you know access kind of capacity is about 7 million or 7.5 million dollars I think you heard Kim mention that there are choices and for example Poudre Valley pays for the administrative overhead so if you kept all of the same systems we used what our you know administrative cost was that you saw in the early pie charts of 3.4 could be potential revenue either in the short term or as an ongoing concept and then just you know we we do know that we have identified needs that don't have funding sources right now that council has set our priorities I have come out of master plans I just wanted to put that little

[140:00] plug in there as you're thinking about potential options so I'm just trying to track the math here we heard that the cost the city of operating the library including the capital and the overhead was in the fifteen point five million the total cost of a library our budget doesn't reflect that because we're not paying for overhead well who pays hold it I'm totally confused Mineo back to the slide so I can reference it correctly it is slide nine yep so slide nine fifteen point eight million its cost to the city to operate the library correct on any given year right so this year we had a higher capital budget but again the the administrative overhead isn't charged to library it's just absorbed within our general fund however

[141:00] that's fine yeah but if we were no longer doing anything for the library itself the library is now it's doing its own the district has been the capital expenses and maintenance in the operating expenses and it would have that overhead but we wouldn't we likely so would there isn't a one-for-one correlation that if they don't if we don't provide their HR service we're not going to necessarily unlimited two of the staff that cut it in two types I mean say that we only save half of that because of economies of scale that still looks to me like 12 plus 1.5 so thirteen and a half million would be the savings so I'm just trying to track sure cuz you said seven and a half plus we might make some money if they paid us to do stuff but it looks to me like the any potential future payments out savings should be more in the 13 million dollar range I think this is a good

[142:01] minimum and I want to be conservative that we're not thinking of money we don't have yet especially given that the the 15 included 0.33 mil that goes away that we would not have the revenue capacity then that's about a million and a half right there million and a half right there okay thank you so and to drill into the administrative overhead services so one potential outcome correct me if I'm wrong here would be that the city continues doing all of the administrative overhead things like HR you know the those kind of IT that kind of stuff right so things that are currently kind of buried in the city budget and spread across the entire organization so that one potential outcome would be that the city still provides all of those services we don't the costs don't change but we actually receive some revenue from the district to compensate us for providing those services all right so that so the 7.5

[143:00] million savings does that include that additional revenue network so that the next line right yeah so I'm just clarifying so the the 7.5 savings would be kind of stuff we wouldn't be spending any more on the library that we could potentially use for other things and then that three and a half million that they might pay us if we went that route would then be additional revenue we could use for other things that's correct so the seventh half translates to what the general fund portion is right now as a conservative number thanks yeah just gonna continue on this strange so you showed us the slide that says the city is all in cost of the libraries about sixteen million dollars right taxpayers are kicking in sixty however you budget in allocating it's costing the taxpayer sixteen million dollars to run our library and I think you showed us using a 3.85 mill levy that just folks in the city boundaries just for a second that would generate about sixteen million dollars that's correct maybe that's a coincidence maybe that's not and and so I get the fact that if we expand our service boundaries and tax

[144:00] those people who are not being taxed it could be as much as 18 or 20 million dollars which is kind of the gravy but kind of beg the question of like what's happening here in other words the tax payers are paying 16 million dollars and then gonna get a 3.85 mill levy increase assuming we don't do any D decreases in the budget for the libraries still gonna be 16 million dollars right I mean somebody's gonna cost the library district this roughly the same amount opera library is it cost us right they're not gonna have like some economy of scale or some magic that causes the library expenses to be less than what it costs us right now I don't imagine so when we did this analysis in 2018 with bomb that did not indicate that the district's so studying inside the expansion of the district which I maybe that's the whole purpose here I'm not too sure it's basically the taxpayers are getting to get a tax increase but they're gonna get the same funding for the same library buildings as they're getting right now they're gonna get sixteen million dollars worth of library every year if the boundaries of the district were

[145:00] simply the city is that 305 is that right yeah and I think that with that 385 because of what what we can't do right now on a very good scale is the maintenance backlog and so they will be able to address a lot more of that through it so again help me with that yeah so the 15 the capital maintenance and that 3.3 million dollars can you go back one slide nine that Jackyl dome was on average it does not mean that it's supported year over year so right so if the district was was just the city bonds again let's go with that and they generated sixteen million dollars they could kind of do kind of what we're doing which is operate the library for 9.1 they pay somebody themselves or us or somebody 3.4 for overhead and they'd spend 3.3 million dollars on facilities maintenance capital right would have that more consistently and not be up against kind of the coordination of

[146:00] other funding needs so that 3.3 doesn't necessarily go every year universally they couldn't spend more like if we wanted to spend 7 million dollars next year we could and I couldn't because they only got 16 million coming in per year again I'm I'm forgetting about the the Nahuatl and Gunbarrel second cuz maybe that's the goal here is just to pull those people in and get an extra two to four million dollars for the library but it seems to me like 16 in 16 out kind of a wash hmm okay can connect yeah I was guys you know that's David you go because my understanding on that on that the 3.3 million that's been allocated on an ad hoc basis and you haven't gotten that most years right like the last year or two we've added some additional funding for the library but we have and we have no boat coming up this year so I don't what is the number eight million dollars that are in capital expenses for this year I guess I mean I I think I also want to just I can't speak entirely for the library champions but there's no scenario where the library champions are proposing that a district library be the boundaries

[147:01] that are the city that was merely something that we did in the master plan to show council what it would cost and the cost is the same the burden to the taxpayer of running the library is the same which I think the Baumann study bore out but the the library champions which is in some reason why we're here tonight has never proposed that it's either limited to the city boundaries and I think they would say precisely they're against that idea that the city would fund the entire library which has roughly 30% of its users outside of the city yeah I know I understood the idea I was just I was just suspending reality for a second so what it says is that Boulder taxpayers are gonna pay more so that we can force Niwot and Gunbarrel folks to pay something right now other words is under the expanded boundary is gonna bring in about 20 million dollars so the the library will have 4 million more at its disposal than it does now as assuming that 3 million dollars is a good number and but the Boulder

[148:01] taxpayers got to pay more in order to extract that extra money from the county residents yeah we'd have to go back and look at the data precisely Bob but I think what it adds is 22 percent more households and about 20 percent more value overall assessed value if the only proposition is let's tax Niwot and gun barrel that would be different but we're saying let's tax folder residents second time an tax gun barrel and I want that's that's the proposition that's on the table well the proposition is not to tax gun barrel Niwot only is to tax Boulder gun barrel and Iowa yeah yes correct okay prep for the the the the map it's a much larger area than just come down rapid 80s simple eighty percent of the taxes we pay by Boulder residents and businesses I think that's correct if I I think potentially though with that outcome we would then have other revenue to support other city

[149:01] services right so so the the it's not like the the money would go away and be double taxed and not you would have that available and we could conceivably lower other taxes if we wanted to to reduce the tax burden or we could improve other cities yeah I understand that but it felt like we were paying sixteen to get seven and a half yeah that's why I think we were all struggling with that mouth which is Boulder Boulder residents and businesses taxes will go up in the aggregate by sixteen million dollars as part of a larger district but I think KT conservatively said but only count on seven and a half as the net windfall so some some a tap nine dollars went away somewhere well I think that's that's the money we currently pay to support the library that would run continue to go to support the library as part of a district and then there'd be seven to ten million additional dollars that we could spend for other city services could you say that again Aaron I'm pretty sure I did not track so so I think if you took the the net additional burden to Boulder taxpayers of is it

[150:01] sixteen million dollars I'm losing a little bit saved sixteen million dollars that that approximately nine million of that would be the money that Boulder taxpayers are already paying to support the day-to-day operating of the library and then there would be seven to ten million additional dollars to be used that could be used for other city services so in other words if I'm tracking you correctly the Boulder taxpayers taxes are going to go up to pay for part of the services they already have an already paying for and they're going to continue paying into the city fund the general fund which will be used for something else I mean at the end of the day these is a tax increase and that's what that is saying however you parse it out correct the tax increase and it's tax increase probably disproportionately on the city of Boulder residents for sure the businesses and so that's what I think we need to keep in mind from an equity perspective is the businesses who likely

[151:01] don't use library very much their increase is going to be much more than the residential who presumably do use the library yes totally said I think it's a separate point but yes yeah Tonya did you wouldn't say something thanks Mary so I just want to jump in here this is a very valuable conversation to help us frame information coming back on March 17th I think what I'm hearing is give give counsel more clarity of what that net increase in the budget is and how that aligns to the master plan that is information we presented last year in the spirit of time we didn't add that so that will be an easy add to this conversation which will include expansion services to gun barrel Niwot it does also address significant backlog in our existing facilities in Boulder so we'll really separate that out within

[152:00] the three levels of the master plan and what that achieves Thank You Tanya and Cooney I appreciate Bob's comment about the rent those commercial you know who pay rent I think that's very important when we think of equity but I think I needed some clarification on the taxes because from what I'm hearing from Bob he's saying several times that taxes will be doubled and I think we would need some clarification what does that really mean or is there phase-out time what does it really mean because I'm sure people don't want their taxes to double so the taxes wouldn't double and I think Katie showed a chart so and then Bob asked the question I believe that the property tax increased now it depends upon where you live in the city it's somewhere between three and four percent three and four percent applies across residential and business

[153:02] interests that to you to the city of Boulder that's not I mean that's what Katie I think is trying to describe but I don't know what you decide to do with that money and I don't think that's any part of the champions proposal either I'm gonna ask my question real quick which is and it piggybacks really on what David just said do we want to look at a corresponding mill reduction basically I mean if we're we're gaining 16 million and we're already collecting 16 million do we look at producing plug your ears Katie on that one sorry Tanya to you but I think it's worth discussing yeah I think that's absolutely the policy decision that you have and and again I would be cautious to say that you'd have 16 million that you'd free up so I mean just for a more order of magnitude right if you were to reduce the city's gonna levy the 0.33 and then make it one nil

[154:04] right so another point 666 for the general fund that's 2.7 million dollars less annually and what we're trying to say is it totally policy decision you also have a lot of needs that you're gonna have to come to terms with during the budget process as well so if you live in nahuatl or Gunbarrel now you're not restricted in any way from the use of our library am I not correct that's correct so we are assuming people outside of the city will be delighted to pay more for services that they get for free now I'm just that's just a play on making its assumptions I it seems a little unrealistic to me I'm not suggesting it's that we don't go forward but so we we did do a poll last year in March May I would say no longer valid but the there was no statistically significant difference in the support

[155:00] for those people in unincorporated Boulder County than there was no that in the city of Boulder and there was I mean interestingly enough and I wish I could explain it but the question of businesses have come up and those people who self-identified as business owners by a statistically significant margin favored it more than the overall population I wish I could explain to you why that was not answering the survey but that was also a an interesting point to me I don't know why I'm only suggesting that that there may be a variance between a poll and pulling the lever on a table or vote where you're going to be spending a couple hundred bucks more as a private citizen and possibly two or three thousand dollars more as a business owner yeah just a quick clarification question the the mill increase is reflective of the top level and I don't recall the three levels in the comp plan but it is the top level in the comp plan correct

[156:02] master plan master plan sorry this would achieve the vision plan as set forth and the accepted master plan vision got it go ahead and finish yeah I'm simply gonna reiterate the next steps for March 17 3 of a scheduled public hearing getting community feedback on our potential options that we've laid out and then hopefully at that point we'll get council direction so we can move forward with understanding kind of the 2020 ballot options Sam and then Bob great if we could go back to slide 12 I'm just trying to square something I heard David say and I'm just making sure that I check this one yeah so it looks to me just City Boulder City Limits here that roughly speaking the residential

[157:01] assessed value is the same as non-residential assessed value but that's not correct because the underlying values are assessed at a different rate is that correct that's correct so the assessed values at 1.9 2.1 so forget her the next slide then what the change means now this is just the Delta if we do library district is that residents of $850,000 will pay two hundred and thirty four dollars more and an $850,000 commercial building will pay nine hundred and forty nine dollars more so David said the increase for both residential and commercial and their tax bill will be three or four percent it would be roughly the same is that correct it'll be roughly three or four percent but the dollar amount will be a lot higher that's correct because commercial

[158:01] property is taxed at 29% I already paying you know four times as much percent it's a larger it says you know the percentages say three or four percent but the dollar amount is actually four times as much that's correct thank you we on to be clear this is not my question but just to build on that the three or four percent includes the school district tax the county tax all taxes if you're just comparing it to city tax it's a 30% increase not a three or four percent increase we went from 12 Mills to 15 and a half miles my question is I know you did read your slides ahead of time so I know you have a couple of packs of pocket slides and I wanted to ask some questions about those because it's I seem to recall and I think you could tell us we did increase the library funding and I think in the last two years Matt to move it closer from baseline to I came up with the words from maintain to meet is that right so

[159:01] that was yeah so this is kind of the what we showed during the budget process us in 2019 year added over you know close to $800,000 to the library budget that really pushed achieved a lot of their maintain pushed slightly into meet community demand in 2020 a little bit smaller increase knowing that a majority of the meet community demand is in the North Boulder operating and so what we do have planned for 2021 and our fund financial is an additional almost two million dollars for nuovo operating that thank you that was exactly looking for and then on top of that didn't we kick in an extra 700,000 in capital towards the North Boulder Library that's okay thank you for pointing so are we gonna have a discussion at some point time either tonight or March 17th about alternative who I mean we're kind of getting up into that like gray area alternative ways to fund the library if we were not to form a district I mean is that a worthy discussion to have at some point in time I think that's up to your call and your

[160:02] colleagues everyone would be interested in having that discussion I mean if there was a way to fund the library adequately I know where we're right there but if people want it to be farther towards full-on the gas tank I'd be interested in knowing if there's a way to do it without raising taxes as significantly as what's being proposed I think just to be clear - because this is based upon the library master plan and not the bomb kind of analysis what what we do miss here is again that backlog issue and so we can kind of adjust the numbers to make sure you're crystal clear how much more it would take to what we call adequately fund or in a sustainable fashion just as long as we're not like we have we have backlogs in every department right right so as long as we're not like reasonable within the scope of like all the there's backlog and there's a backlog right we want to make sure that we're not okay and Katie just a question for you why was the vision plan level chosen the

[161:01] 3.85 as opposed to staying at the meet community demand I simply chose the 3.85 to be consistent with what the library champions documentation is showing so that you guys could have similar numbers and the question would be for them about the vision but council could choose the meet community demand as opposed to the vision yes terms of the race yeah the petition doesn't get ahead of that right in outlines what the mill would be okay thank you you're just like 20 you're also in the back pocket yeah so this is great thank you for this breakdown this is really helpful so you add up the you're the building's leaving the land out of its about twenty million dollars and you throw in the art collection so what is the value of the collection itself not the art collection but the books and like you don't have to answer

[162:00] now it's the kind of thing where you know so here we have the building presumably the collection will go as well if we have a district that would all wouldn't make any sense not to do everything so it seems like what's missing here we'd like to see in the future would be what's the value of the collection itself or thank tweak in your collections I assume just heart yes that's correct okay yeah and we're yeah I don't know that it moves the needle a ton so I think the like the assets the main libraries are the majority of okay we'll get that Rachel to Bob's question and obviously I'm new here but I would assume that we looked at that or that the champion's looked at that oh that the library master plan looked at at what our options were before we went into forming a district you know how else could we get to the higher level on the call it the gas tank the meter if we did I missed that meeting that there was discussion and that that's how we got to

[163:01] forming the district so I would just ask maybe David or anybody who was involved for our maybe if not tonight to inform us of what discussions might have led up to this notion I believe that the library champions arrived at the 3.85 with the intent to fully fund the entire master plan so that was their goal from the beginning they were like why would we do a library district without it including the best library they could have I I mean we'd have to ask them precisely why so I think I'm asking a little bit of a different question and maybe I misunderstood Bob's but I'm wondering why did we get to district rather than how else could we fund this so I heard Bob to ask sort of if we don't do a district how else can we get to this you know gold standard and so I'm wondering did was that discussion not had sure so I can answer that and then we can also provide a little bit of context in 2018 in November George Kay bomb that was precisely what

[164:00] they were looking at it's different opportunities whether it's within the city or whether it becomes a district so you could see at different levels what it would take for city funding either reducing it increasing sales tax increasing property tax at combination and so George Kabam did look through all of that in addition to looking at the district and what we have chosen through the budget process is to incrementally fund some of those opportunities without raising taxes and having that discussion I don't know if you want to add Tanya yeah I'll just add to that I think this is a perfect example of the need of the financial strategy committee to because one of the last slides that Katie had outlined is all the other city needs too and so I would just maybe urge the conversation to not just look at a solution for the library but what's the solution in context of all the city needs and that's the feedback that we've received from staff from council members to staff just on how the master plans are presented and how we may be looking

[165:01] at a lens of a financial strategy they feel very one-off so how do we balance all those needs and especially in this case looking at the general fund Thank You Tanya and yeah I was just gonna make a comment to the council that we were going down the rabbit hole of tunnel vision again talking about funding this at the gold plate standard without considering all of the other needs and that's exactly what the budget strategy committee is trying to figure out how we're going to do that without every time we have something in front of us that's what we want to do full throttle and it says it in trouble Aaron just a real short question to anyone's knowledge have we ever ever fully funded a master plan - okay so we always it's my understanding and and I'll look to

[166:00] staff to correct me if I'm wrong it's my understanding that every time we pass a master plan we're passing it at the vision level which means that we are accumulating these unfunded needs which is why another reason why we're having this but strategy discussion is we keep just getting everything further and further out of reach I can I respond to that quick so I think we also accept master plans that does not mean we're budgeting for the master plan and so sometimes we get caught up in accepting and budgeting at the same time and so they they are very distinct we are looking at how do we almost II couple those processes but then also acknowledge that there are true budgetary needs within the master plan process so we will be following up with counsel with more information on

[167:00] progress staff has made in this space specifically our planning department in partnership with finance later this year because that's a conversation that the financial strategy committee has brought up and it's really a symbol of where we're at right now in this conversation as well to knowledge I don't believe that we ever ever fully achieved a master plan vision by the time the next master plan is started I think I was in there so just from a process perspective just to press this check in right so so we're not going to do a whole lot of extra pining tonight right the the is that correct that March 17th is when we're really digging into hey what should we do and I'm a question so then Bob to come to your point that would be when we'd have a discussion about what are our alternatives right so and I guess that that would be and I'll just throw out that like so for example

[168:02] on alternatives like we could raise other taxes we could decrease funding from other programs right that would be a possibility I just what just want to get out as as we get in go towards March 17th when we'll have this thorough discussion just to keep in mind that the with the district that we would be more or less matching the taxing base with the patrons of the library and that you of itself would realize additional revenue from people who currently use the library that are not currently contributing to the funding and if we feel that the the tax amount is too large we could form the district have it passed a tax increase and we could lower our other taxes so I'll just put that out there that that having if we feel like this is too much extra tax burden that doesn't mean the district is the wrong way to go we could form the district and then lower city taxes correspondingly if we felt like that was the better alternative so I just want to put up that's one of our possibilities

[169:01] out there Aaron that is no doubt true however that will be done outside of the structure of the financial studies that we're doing right now which is to balance the needs across the different departments whereas this is as Mary I think indicated it's a one-off focusing only on the library and so if we were to do just what you described we would be setting the library up to meet the vision plan of library and everything else would then have to decrement its plan in order to return money to the taxpayers so I just wanted to make that point Katie had another question for you page 23 it's the same guy just so I understand we do have the highest sales tax rate of all of our peer cities but is that big blue bar in the middle so one two three four up is that be community culture and safety tax yes

[170:01] okay and when does that expire just so I'm refresh at the end of twenty twenty-one twenty twenty-one so we will drop back down and move more into the middle of the pack when that expires I must be decide to extend it again right okay and our so we're eight point six something eight point eight four five right now with the community culture and safety tax if I read your it's twenty three there yeah okay there we go and what's our limit we do not have a limit technically on sales I guess effectively what we have found is there are not that many communities that are over 10% right right okay thank you nearby just out of curiosity I understand taxes in the past have sunset or transferred has there been a time in our history that we've ever lowered taxes tech I do know this answer has

[171:01] I've had to answer it once technically yes we did it once but it was a one-year tax for the fire training center that we did not renew and it was several years ago but no I saw this same bear that in mind as we talked about possibly lowering taxes I just wanted to rattle off some some of the results of the let me back out for the new council members back in March and April last year we kind of wondered where the community was on do they want a district do they want to have a tax how much tax would that be and so on and so forth and so we we hired the library hired a pollster and there was actually a polling committee that consisted of Johnnie Teeter who was on the library had been on the library Commission and Lisa Roselle and me we helped we work with the consultant to put together some questions and then they pulled data is statistically available I just want to rattle off some of the some of the results from that poll and this does lead to a request for information so 72% of the respondents that they were not

[172:00] following this discussion maybe more are now but back then 72% we're now following 77% of our community did say that they supported some sort of increased in funding for the library but then when we got into the details of how much they really supported that one of the one of the threshold questions we asked was that for Mills so slightly higher than this 385 we've been talking about and 44% said that they would support a tax at that level of that 44% of 15% said they supported strongly the rest were supported less strongly and then we asked the different thresholds and as you might imagine as the tax went down from four Mills down to about a third of that the in the enthusiasm when table will have a pollster tell us what level enthusiasm you need to have to pass attacks when we asked a question about who's in favor of a property tax increase 16% or one out of six said they favored a property tax increase and then

[173:01] Munir the end of it we gave the the respondents the choice of of either a reallocation of existing funds towards the library or a tax increase so when we gave him that choice forty percent of the respondents said that they would rather have a reallocation of existing funds 26% said they were in favor of a tax increase and the rest were wanted either no change or they were unsure and then one of the final questions we asked is are you in favor of forming a district at all without regards to tax do you want a district and 45% said yes I would so that's those are the numbers I'd looked at the poll today could we have somebody come in interpret those for us at the next meeting I'm gonna let Tommy answer that so I have been in initial contact with Bob Drake and will will hopefully be able to connect with him before the March 17th public hearing as I recall from past polls it's it's

[174:00] not as simple as 51% of the people say they're in favor of a tax and therefore it's gonna pass I think there's a I think Bob would tell or somebody would tell us that the thresholds a little higher than that is that right yes and what we can also do as well also see if we can reach out to the individual who conducted the poll from last year if there's we can answer those questions and if there's other questions from Council we can work with that individual to have that information right my questions are more on triptych for example if 44 percent of people say that they're in favor of attacks what is that does that mean the tax is gonna passed or not I mean I know it's less than 50 but I mean what threshold and so it's more of an interpretation methodology is fine I don't care what the methodology is really more of an interpretation in Boulder Colorado what does it take from a polling standpoint to get to a successful ballot measure and Bob would be great for that I think okay thank you any other questions for Katie Aaron angers my last one although I Bob I

[175:02] think just to those those numbers there were a lot of undecideds I think you quoted like how many support but there a lot of undecided so yeah and that's that's another question I would have for Baba is what how do we allocate the underside is do we assume that they're ultimately supportive or not or allocated so that'd be a good question for bomb right hey cuz it I think that of the people who did have an opinion on the district it was 2 to 1 in favor there were a lot of people who are like anyway so but we haven't cross-examined you in a long time so I won't again I want to get one one of the questions so there's the the question of what mill rate might be put on the ballot for the Taylor election if we go down this route right so now if the petition is filed then the petition states the mill rates that's correct but if we so but if we take control the process and pass a resolution to form the district at what point does the exact mill rate get decided in by whom it would be decided by you and it would need to be determined at that point

[176:00] where you have to certify the election question which i think is probably September 6th so is it decided by us or like the council or the council endlich's commissioners like who yeah would be the two of you so it would be the establishing established bodies would agree on a mill rate yes so I'll just keep that in mind that we don't necessarily have to pick 3.85 as well so we can pick a different umber and also just some more information for the hearing Katie just the options that would exist for a district to provide some sort of tax relief for people yeah thank you for that question it's certainly something that could be negotiated within the IGA and it would be up to the district to provide whatever type of program it sees fit and again I think you would have some control over that if you wanted to look at different opportunities for rebates

[177:04] I wanted to go back to a question that Mark asked you earlier about what would be the benefits for people from Gunbarrel and from our agenda reading is that when it comes to servicing the area what does that really mean what are some of the some of the stuff that people will get that is tangible because I think that's a question probably a lot of people are thinking as well okay is it just in a tax increase in then just people are just driving in but is there possibilities for pop-up libraries in what does that mean with districting and not districting well I'll start and let David take over so again the 3.85 by the library champions is intended to accomplish the vision which does have a gun barrel library and an additional you know library somewhere yet to be seen based upon the population use so I think the argument is that by doing this you

[178:03] would see tangible assets being built within your no property that you wouldn't we don't have plans in our budget so yeah the the champions plan includes a gun barrel library by 2024 I think an Iowa library to follow as soon as possible thereafter so that that is within their funding model assuming that a library board of trustees wanted that to go forward any other questions all right so this is just a question for cam if you've seen this before so it seems like a kind of entry level question here is whether the voters of Boulder would like to have their assets run by a

[179:02] library district rather than by the city through the City Council on the Board of Commissioners so have you ever seen cities try and decide whether there residents wanted something like this to happen ahead of time rather than just going for the Tabor because as we've said 2/3 of the voters will be Boulder residents in the district and 80% of the the taxing base is going to be in the city so have you ever seen SIF he's trying to decide let you give the example of Aurora for instance where something was set up in a way that it didn't work and they went through the IGA and they'll brain damage and they got to the end and the answer was no have you seen folks trying to decide ahead of time whether their residents cared for the idea I really haven't other than you know the public hearing that's required for the

[180:00] resolution I haven't seen an effort made I mean there's a polling and things like that that go on but nothing really beyond that it's been kind of let's just rely on the election and see what happens thank you there was a goodness handout that David gave when these handouts they gave it gave us today tonight there was all sorts of references to polls this organization this City pulled and this city pulled and there was a poll and then a resolution okay and maybe you're not prepared to drill into that tonight but I see the word poll a bunch of times is that like where some of the city's doing with Sam Sam suggested do you know Rutter who generated this this is something that the City Attorney's Office requested today and so that document you have is from the State Library I asked them to decipher what poll meant and it wasn't a

[181:02] poll in the sense of polling I think it had to do with the establishment of Tabor the establishment of Colorado Library lod so polling is sense essentially as they went for a vote so the the one there is one library yeah question just to be clear the public hearing we're having on March 17th is not the public hearing to pass a resolution or that's correct it's it's a it's to inform our path forward okay what that if we were to have a plane on a resolution that would be it uh that would be at a later date okay thank you now we're just looking at this map and it seems I don't know what is the percentage but a large percentage of the areas in Colorado they are districts

[182:02] and I wanted to know maybe even if not now in the future and March 17th you can tell us a little bit more about their processes and what do you think it worked and I think it was mentioned earlier when it comes whether by resolution because from looking at this it seems like districting may be the wave of the future but what does that really mean by looking at this map we had provided a memo last year that talked about a couple of district formations and I can go ahead and add some others to that and then get that distributed to you when the time comes doesn't this provide part of that answer yeah I think it does I mean we need the the State Library asked to have more time it was like like a couple hours before this meeting and they would like to dig through it so what it looks like is that there have been 59 districts formed all but one of them was formed by

[183:00] it apparently by I don't know maybe 80% were formed by a resolution my sense is that I think two or three of those districts have merged but this data is from 2014 the map that you have is from 2011 I don't believe the State Library has updated those maps or the or that document but they would be happy to dig into it more so at this point there are 57 library of 57 library districts in the state of Colorado there are 31 municipal libraries and there are 11 county libraries of the 11 county libraries they serve 675,000 said since residents of Boulder of Colorado 575,000 of which are Jefferson County the municipal libraries serve I think 1.8 million the District Library serve three million yes and and then in addition so in the cover memo to the information as well and this was from

[184:00] that email that was sent by the state librarian there's a list of the districts that were formed by election in there so there it looks like there was seven since nineteen eighty eight that have been informed by an election so this has nothing to library please don't adjourn the meeting once we're done with library have one question about the tribal consultation times alright thank you thank you thank you I'll see you on the 17th all right Sam you had a question about

[185:01] the tribal council yeah so um one minor thing Adam you you I'm gonna come to you as you can't or did you oh oh there are two head I'm just I'm here okay so then so you signed up for two so the next question is it looks like we are oversubscribed significantly on the 17th for the limit two sessions and nobody signed up on the 18th did Dean it was it done intentionally or was that by accident can I don't know I was the first one to sign up so I haven't seen what happened okay well I mean I'll be happy to fill in but we're gonna be oversubscribed you know by one or two in every session because we do this could we have staff take a look at that and then tell us where we're overskirt subscribe where we're under subscribe and see if people want to move around and sure it might be

[186:00] just as easy to huddle and do it now but we can do it however I mean dude little would be a way I can't see it I know here's the junii did you get a chance to fill that out because I don't I don't know that your names on there you must be this can I make a suggestion since we're at the end of the meeting so we did the hard copy since we haven't fully adapted the new council rules with the doodle poll so we could test the doodle poll in this space requesting a similar process to what we did last year where you fill out all of your availability and then we try to spread the time so that all council members can attend so we will be clear please respond with all of your options and then we'll determine it from there I just didn't want people to lose out who

[187:00] could otherwise have gone and I'll just I I was going to dedicate one day to this so if that should be the 18th and 717 that could just switch days I just don't want to do a couple one day in a couple the next day well make note of that the problem with the all availability thing is I can't be all available at all of them I can I can be all available but I can only go to like two so I mean that's another thing for for Aaron or I or any of us to sign up for quote a full day would occupy would keep somebody out perhaps and since I'm willing to do a full day I don't need to do a full day I'm just saying I so kicked me out for this is why I think Tanya's idea of all of your available slots and have staff do their best to make sure that everybody gets a couple slots at least that's what I thought we were doing on that piece of paper because it was you know you can let's go with the doodle

[188:05] poll yeah yeah and Rachel the only reason I asked the question was there's nobody on the 18th at all and so I feel like it needs balancing by somebody all right one final thing before we adjourn I just wanted us to thank Heidi very much for her service Friday is her last day and I know I'm gonna miss her a lot and I think she's done an incredible job and she almost went away once maybe she'll almost go away twice she the new clerk for the city of Erie so they're getting our wonderful person lucky

[189:10] [Music] - parasol felt like that [Music]