May 16, 2019 — City Council Special Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:00] [Music]

[2:09] [Music] [Music] [Music]

[3:03] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

[4:17] 20 no it's not May 23 May 16 this says May 21st May 16 2019 Lynette what you call the role councilmember Brock a present Carlisle here Jones here or so Nagel you're Weaver here yes here young present we have a quorum great we do have one announcement which I assume you want tonight right which is hey we're down to recruiting for just one more boards and commission and that's the University Hill commercial area Management Commission there are

[5:01] some extra requirements for this one but basically you have to be 18 years of age have lived in this city limits for a year and I believe you must have some connection to the hill but the specifics are on the website and we encourage people to go apply if you're interested and just a reminder to the folks in the audience that there's no open comments scheduled for special since this is a special council meeting we're not having open coming to our only topic I guess and Christmas truck will start out great Thank You Jane good evening Council Christmas chuck interim planning director and assistant city manager and i'm here tonight with the alpine balsam team older has a legacy of planning one written in textbooks studied by communities across the world one of big legacy decisions focused on long-term outcomes for the community it's what makes Boulder

[6:01] Boulder think of some of our beloved places around the community downtown North Boulder our bike system our greenways our urban parks our mountain backdrop the open space system these places are the result of long-term efforts that took time investment by this community and forward-looking community members and councils the holiday neighborhood it's a model of mixed income new urbanist living that people from all over the world continue to visit and study back in the early 1990s north Boulder was rural outside the city limits and this area had the potential to be developed as a big-box store the city took action purchased 27 acres of the old holiday drive-in site and in 1997 following completion of the North Boulder sub-community plan the city

[7:02] purchased the site to guide the redevelopment and sold the land of older housing partners where a decade-plus redevelopment of the site has occurred with both public and private investment maybe well see if it's there we go or Boulder Junction it's a new transit oriented neighborhood in the center of Boulder which began in the late 1990s in partnership with RTD to establish a new transit hub in the city and not a twin parking garage at Table Mesa as proposed in 2004 the city and RTD purchased the Pollard motors property and initiated the Transit Village area plan which was completed in 2007 it hasn't been easy it's required significant public investment in bridges new streets paths parks we've even moved a train station back to the Train and last month the housing development on the final portion of the site received its final approvals to continue that vision there's a couple

[8:01] common threads across these legacy projects strategic partnerships investment and time that have led to major transformations throughout the city and in 2015 council made another legacy decision to purchase the Alpine balsam site the purchase was made for two reasons to guide the redevelopment to fit within the community's visions and goals and two to provide space for a new city services hub the city paid 40 million dollars plus interest to secure these objectives then the community invested time in the Alpine balsam vision plan where the area's vision statement was born that Alpine balsam will be a vibrant multi-generational hub for community life and local government services the plan was accepted by City Council in June of 2017 the current phase the Alpine balsam area plan was initiated to develop a common understanding of the

[9:01] expected changes to define desired characteristics in the area and to identify achievable implementation methods the area plan has been building on the vision plan goals also during this time the brenton building was renovated for city services and opened in 2018 and as of a couple weeks ago Boulder Community Health has completely moved out of the property years of community vision development have been leading to the redevelopment of the Alpine balsam site and surrounding area as with other legacy projects in Boulder that Boulder has driven redevelopment will take several years we believe there's a path forward to deconstruct the hospital renovate the pavilion conduct any public improvements or flood mitigation and develop housing or county services over the next several years but I want to remind us we're at a key transition point from planning to implementation we're funding request start coming in and we have to make

[10:01] difficult choices we'll be presenting various passes and options we believe that continuing forward is the right choice including deconstruction of the hospital a new customer and community hub for city services a vibrant mix of Housing and or county services and the opportunity to transition this area from hospital to hub we did receive a letter from the county and we're happy to dive into that in a little more detail after the presentation during the April 9th study session council members had several questions and comments about the Alpine balsam site including costs options to exit deconstruction of the hospital and the original purpose for purchasing the Alpine balsam property so in response to these questions the purpose of tonight's meeting is to share information about the options available to Council regarding next steps and deconstruction of the hospital to help frame the conversation we have two key questions and that is discounsel

[11:01] agree with the staff recommendation to proceed with option a to continue the area plan and be discounsel agree to proceed with deconstruction of the hospital this year staff has framed the discussion around four options option a is to stay the course deconstruct a hospital complete the area plan and redevelop the property option B is to rezone the property deconstruct the hospital and sell option C is to stop do not deconstruct the hospital and sell the property as is an option D is to pause before we get into each of the options I want to share some background information on city services D construction in the area plan to help answer some specific questions that came up and to provide context for each of the options so the first piece of background is related to city services as counsel is aware the facilities that our city serves our community from are aging and in several cases have reached

[12:00] the end of their life whether city services consolidate at Alpine balsam or another property there are several benefits to consolidation most notably the city can better serve our customers from a welcoming and easily accessible location where they may conveniently accomplish multiple business transactions in one-stop renovation of the pavilion building would enable consolidation of city services within the downtown area at a centralized location a consolidation of this scale would likely not be achieved in this part of the city if it's not developed at the Alpine balsam site and would lead to a lost opportunity and a departure of many core city services from downtown the park central and New Britain building at the corner of Broadway and Arapaho need to be vacated in a timely manner these buildings are located in the high hazard flood zone and can no longer be maintained to a proper building standard as required maintenance investments exceed flood regulations the addition of the fourth floor of the pavilion could also allow

[13:00] for an additional building to be vacated and consolidated such as the atrium building on the east bookend in the Civic area we'd have to balance this and there are often we can talk about that more later tonight if we do not pursue consolidation at the pavilion the city will need to least 60 to 90,000 square feet of office space somewhere in Boulder which we estimate would be a cost of roughly two and a half million dollars a year in lease costs that would then escalate each year and then we would explore other opportunities through the facility's master plan the second area of background is related to the hospital deconstruction itself in the four options that we're presenting tonight there are two in which the hospital is deconstructed and two in which we hold the hospital in a vacant state so to provide a little bit of background on that in either scenario we're proceeding with securing the hospital site decommissioning the systems in the building this work is funded and is currently underway if we

[14:01] choose the deconstruction path we're looking at a cost ranging from 11 to 16 million dollars for the deconstruction itself and that range really reflects the level of recycling and reuse effort in the deconstruction process and we can discuss that again in further after the presentation or we can hold the hospital vacant for an undetermined period of time in this case we would hire a staff person to maintain the building in its decommission state and continue to pay utilities and maintenance costs the last area of background is around the area plan itself why should we do an area plan in this area really the purpose of area plans and the Alpine balsam area plans specifically is to guide redevelopment of the city-owned properties and the area to create a common understanding of the desired changes such as land use to ensure that those changes are consistent with the community's vision for a vibrant multi-generational hub for community life and local government services to identify the public improvements such as

[15:01] streets plazas flood mitigation and other crucial infrastructure and to ensure the economic and financial viability of the development options proposed in the area so with that let's dive into the options option a is to stay the course so what would happen next in this option is that we would continue with completion of the area this year and begin deconstruction of the hospital we would then implement the area plan by completing the deconstruction we would then update land use and zoning and changed the land use and zoning we would work on designing the pavilion renovation and we would sell the non city portions of the site which is roughly the Western two-thirds of the site to buyers such as market rate housing or affordable housing developers and/or Boulder County we would then renovate the pavilion construct any public improvements or flood mitigation and arrange for financing for the affordable housing development then we would open the city

[16:01] services hub and begin housing development on the site and then that housing development or county services would complete in looking at the financial investment in this option this option does have the largest financial investment we've already invested in the purchase of the site as well as the renovation of the brenton building next would be deconstruction of the hospital at 11 to 16 million dollars this expense is included in the adjustment to the base that's proposed for next week and that would continue through 2021 then we would have the option to sell some land which we estimate could range from 18 to 32 million dollars of income we would then work on funding the city's share of public improvements or site improvements in the area or any flood mitigation and again depending on the level of flood mitigation and that has a pretty wide range of anywhere from 2 to 20 million dollars and that would be integrated sometime between 2022 and 2025 and

[17:02] included in the city's annual CIP then starting in 2022 we would start making payments on a bond essentially for the city services table that's the pavilion remodel and that would be roughly three to four million dollars a year for 20 to 30 years beginning in 2022 and we believe there's an option between now and then to work that into the city budget so we'd be ready for that when that expense arrives wait can you say that again so it's three to four million a year renovated every say that again so what we would do is we would essentially borrow the money to do the renovation just like your house has a mortgage for the renovation the total for the renovation is about fifty eight fifty nine million dollars to renovate the one building yep that does include the fourth floor and we can dive into that renovation detail here we've got some slides to help walk through that another

[18:01] quick question the three to four million dollars a year does that account for that two and a half million dollars a year that would have been spent on leases it does not so you'll see that as I walk through the next location thank you so in looking at this option and how does it achieve the vision and goals identified in the vision plan it does achieve the original intent for purchase it allows for community guidance on the future redevelopment in the area through the area plan it achieves the city services consolidation and enhancements and it also allows for control of the redevelopment process as the city is the landowner option B is to rezone and sell this is really an option to maximize our return and then sell the property without an area plan so under this option the next steps would be to stop the area planning process begin the deconstruction analyze essentially the highest and best use of the property for land use and Zoning with the goal of

[19:00] increasing the value of the property we would then initiate a Boulder Valley Comprehensive Plan land-use map change and rezoning we would deconstruct the hospital only if that analysis determines that it makes sense to deconstruct the hospital we would then prepare the property for sale and hopefully go on a contract with a buyer that buyer would have some period of due diligence upon which then they would enter into a redevelopment process through the city's redevelopment regulations can you explain why there isn't it does I think was a lease a question why isn't there an area plan in this option or help us explain that one we wanted to try and create options that distinguish between themselves and so option a is the area plan option this would be an option if you want to get but you want to try and maximize your your return that was the idea behind this option but is that really the only difference because because under on your option a you were gonna sell to there's

[20:00] the land anyway right I mean so what one difference between a and B is no area plan right certainty of rezoning either way and we have selling of so substantial amount of the land for use is that we would prefer through our rezoning anyway so is that the primary difference or is there another difference that we're not grasping here I think that is the primary difference is the area plan there's always been the intention that we would sell off a large portion of this site after the use of city services is accommodated on the site under this option we may sell the entire thing and and not locate city services here so that's the other big difference between this option this is really the one to rezone the property and try and create as much investment as the investment as possible there could be I want to do too far in two weeks can now you wanna get through presentation but there could be a an option a B no pun intended which is a hybrid which a and B that that that involves us not but

[21:00] inserts these services in the pavilion building right in other words there's something like there's two distinctions between a and B one is no area plan the other is under a we definitely would use the pavilion building for city services under B we might not is that right yeah B we sell the whole thing well okay question under B we would not use the pavilion building that's the assumption is that we wouldn't as we kind of crafted these options again there are there's there is a span between each of them through the area planning process we can choose whether to locate city facilities that Alpine balsam or not that would be part of the deliberative process of the area plan thanks Chris sorry one other thing I guess I would see is that you said in a we would have control over the development whereas in B we may not but if we rezone dit could we put systems in place such as viewsheds or things like that to have more control on the development that

[22:01] happened theoretically yes if you sold the property we could put some sort of conditions or covenants on the property at time of sale that a buyer would have to accept typically if we want to guide the redevelopment in an area that's where we use the tools in our toolbox of area plans and sub community plans then we can write zoning if we want to like we did in Boulder Junction that's form based code so we're driving the design of buildings a little bit further okay great thanks okay these clarifying questions because we're starting to have our discussions but it's a clarifying question when you mentioned Kris that we would zone it to highest and best use would that include community input or would it just be based on highest and best use yes it would be based on community input the comprehensive plan land-use map change and the rezoning could be done through a community-based process thank you but

[23:00] the big difference here is that then once we do that rezoning we would sell and the redevelopment would go through our normal kind of site review process essentially so let's look at the finances of this option we already have the already invested costs we have the hospital deconstruction if we choose to do that then we would sell the land which in a very rough estimate somewhere between 15 and 40 million dollars based on what zoning we choose on the site there would be a period of time where we'd be holding the the building for the buyers due diligence period probably then we would go out and look for lease space for relocating city facilities we would have an initial cost of configuring that lease space which we estimate at roughly two million dollars it would occur sometime in 2020 2021 and then once that space has been configured we would then move into that space and we would be making our annual lease

[24:01] payments of roughly two and a half million dollars a year again with an escalation per whatever our lease agreement is in clarifying can you go back inside fine question if the principle difference between option a and option B is option a has an area plan option B doesn't an either event we're rezoning and selling to a developer why is the land sale lower on B than it is on a it really depends on what zoning you select that's why there's such a wide range there but okay but that's true for a also right yes yeah but I think through the area planning process we started to use the scenarios that were identified that have been identified so far in the area planning process if there's if there's further questions on that Bob let's dive into it after we resuming in looking at how this option achieves the vision and goals identified in the vision plan it

[25:00] does not achieve the original intent for purchase if we don't locate city facilities there but we may be able to achieve housing on the site depending on what zoning we choose it doesn't allow for community guidance on the future redevelopment through the area plan we would have input on as Mary asked about through the rezoning process and then development review process it is inconsistent with our community-based deliberative planning process we typically go through a deliberative planning process like an area plan or sub community plan before we would then consider land-use map changes or rezoning on a parcel it does not achieve the city services consolidation and enhancements however it does maximize our opportunity for City return on initial investment option C is to stop and sell now and so under this option the idea would be to stop and sell the property as soon as possible so this option differs from B and that it assumes no changes to land users owning so it would keep the public zoning that's on the parcel today and

[26:00] then we would prepare the property for sale so under this option the next steps would be to stop the area planning process we would secure and shut down the systems in the hospital and pavilion as we're planning to we would then determine if all are some of the buildings such as the Brenton building the pavilion or the parking garage would be sold as well and then we would prepare that prod the property for sale and hopefully begin a contracting process with a buyer a buyer would have some period of due diligence and then the property would be redeveloped by the new owner the financial investment and this option foods are already invested costs we would then operate the hospital in a decommissioned state which could be roughly a million dollars a year during the time period until the property was taken over by whoever the future buyer is and then we would sell the property as is for whatever that value would be

[27:00] the city would then securely space and occupy that lease space as I described it before if we look at how this option achieves the vision goals again does not achieve the original intent for purchase or that community guidance it does limit the city's future investment on the site it may not likely not recoup our initial investment and it does not achieve the city services consolidation and enhancements option D is to pause and to reevaluate and this is really to allow for a reevaluation of the purpose goals and vision for the property so to implement this option we would still secure and and decommission the hospital building we would hire a full-time building maintenance staff person and then we would step back and establish clarity on what the desired goals and vision are in alignment with councils direction we do have some concerns about the risks associated with holding the

[28:01] hospital vacant there are security concerns we've had recent examples of vacant and decommissioned buildings related to trespass so this does create a liability for the city should anything happen on the property so we're taking the right precautions to avoid that there's the ongoing and extended maintenance for the undetermined period of time to be able to keep the building running and that be keeping systems running addressing roof leaks etc there's always potential health hazards that arise from a building held vacant for a really long period of time growth pest infestation those sorts of things so the city's taking every precaution to ward against that the financial investment for this option obviously is our already invested costs the ongoing expense of maintaining the building and its decommission state and then the lease space configuration and annual lease payments for relocating city services wherever we can find lease space in Boulder so how does this

[29:03] achieve the vision and goals this is really the option opportunity or option to step back and reassess on what those new goals and vision would be for the property so the staff recommendation when we look at all of the options they are all viable and possible there's pros and cons to each of the options as with other legacy projects in Boulder they require strategic partnership investment and time focused on the long term outcomes for the community we believe proceeding with option a will implement the path that you've been providing guidance on since 2015 to lead towards the long term outcomes for this community the area plan will answer the remaining questions and establish the future for this area the costs and the financing can be addressed and phased and the city is in control of the timeline so to help in trying to organize the conversation tonight we've completed the staff presentation before

[30:00] we go straight to the typical questions for council that staff is prepared and identified in the memo we thought it might be helpful to organize the conversation a little bit tonight by topic category or almost kind of bucket so with deconstruction financing and costs area plan and flood mitigation the pavilion further discussion of the options so the thought is maybe we can organize that based on what areas Council is interested in focusing on then we'll bring up the staff questions for council for discussion so with that we're happy to dive in and start answering questions I think we've heard from a lot of members of the community asking questions about where we deconstructing these buildings I think it would I know that we we have spent some time on this over the last few years I think it would be helpful for us and for the community to have a refresher on the reasons why regardless of which option you go down why deconstruction makes sense as

[31:00] opposed to ripe repurposing this building I think Michelle has some thoughts on that is that work for people start with that one yes okay hi I'm Michele crane our city facilities project manager so some of the highlights of why we have recommended deconstruction of the hospital and we presented to you back in November of last year on this but the key elements and considerations and I just brought up one of the slides from that presentation but this hospital first of all is a hospital it's an eye to occupancy so any new use other than a hospital which is precluded by our agreement with BCH when they vacated would require that we bring the building up to meet all current codes that's current energy codes current life safety codes and current flood codes so right now the building has been patched

[32:01] together over a number of years this is a picture of one of the mechanical systems of which there are many of these big mechanical rooms 31 air handling units that serve this building again they were designed and laid out to serve a hospital so rough ballpark estimating the cost to renovate this building which would really include gutting the building in order to bring it up to meet these codes back of the napkin is about a hundred and seventy-five million dollars if you were just to try to reuse this building but some other key considerations with the cost is just looking at the reuse so we also evaluated the reuse of the pavilion and a key element when we looked at that is the form of that building and and the opportunity to transition that building from what it is now and the shape of it and how it fits within the site in the context of the Alpine balsam area and what our goals were there and what that reuse could be and actually one of our determinations is if

[33:00] we tried to just scrap the pavilion and build back something there we'd probably build back the same building it's an l-shaped building you know we would build back that same form most likely which is not the case with the hospital the hospital's like sprawls more than two-thirds of the site well more than half the site more than two-thirds of the building is actually interior dominated so very little access to light it really going going across the site we determined early on it would be very hard to achieve a lot of the goals of the Alpine balsam area plan are really many visions just to break up that site into other areas and redevelop different pieces of that site and so these were a number of the factors that came into our conclusion to not use the hospital but it's a complex building again designed to be a hospital it would need and complete gutting of the systems in any case and most of the building kind of should be taken down you would really just be reusing the form and the shell of the building of which it's not really

[34:00] an appealing form it's not really very easy to adapt to other uses it was also just a question on cost and you mentioned hundred seventy five million back-of-the-envelope this was about three hundred thousand square feet is that right it's just it's three hundred and twenty three thousand square feet so if you use just square foot you'd be you know over 150 million the complexity we've got asbestos to abate you know that range could easily go beyond this we've heard and I know these numbers come from we've heard from members of community who who say they they believe that we could renovate this building for $200 per square foot so we have kind of like a difference of opinion I guess on what the cost to run it agree with your numbers I'm just sharing you I just when we put together our budgets and something I know just from private practice is most the time people talk and a lot of time people talk in construction costs so what it is just to do the construction and they don't include things like tenant finish sometimes it's in doesn't include that it doesn't include what we call FF&E so fixtures furnitures and equipment nor does it include soft costs so when we

[35:01] put together our budgets because we're coming to get the full cost of a project together when I say 500 or 600 dollars a square foot we're trying to present the entire project cost so including all soft costs all development costs you know fees for PMDs but also our furniture furnishings and fixtures so sometimes that can be a little bit of the disparity between numbers it's just you have to make sure you're comparing apples to apples just around one final number out there so we can have the whole this is from our presentation I'm happy to go through other slides this was just one about different levels of deconstruction we can get into that I do have a slide well I guess this question does maybe as a segue into the cost the silver and gold and platinum thank you for that but regardless of whether we're at silver were a platinum roughly $50 a

[36:03] square foot using 330 thousand square feet I think krispy of its range of 11 to 16 so I'm just doing some quick math there I just want to put this in perspective so what you've said is to renovate the building five hundred five hundred dollars a square foot to tear down the building 50 dollars per square foot ballpark right okay when you talk about the all-in cost it's helpful to understand that for the pavilion renovation is that also an all-in cost like that's really every dime that's required to get city staff in that building that is an all-in cost that is the cost that we put together as the city because that is ultimately what we would need to complete the project so yeah our costs are all in costs and that includes even exterior improvements our share master site development that includes essentially looking at it as a parcel including our development of the right-of-way that would be included and technically our parcel Sam then Mary so

[37:02] the three hundred and thirty thousand square feet includes the pavilion building the deconstruction that we would do would be about two hundred and seventy thousand square feet yes but we would also do with this project and what we're including is the interior demolition of the pavilion building okay numbers as well assuming you know we would go through and got that building on the interior we would leave the shell of the building okay we can say that slower so then it's gonna say because which portion of the deconstruction cost is deconstruction of the so the costs that we're presenting up here in any one of these options in the silver gold and platinum the scope of that project is to take the 200 and roughly seventy thousand square foot hospital down but also what's included is the interior abatement and demolition of the pavilion getting that ready for any kind of renovation project okay Mary is there so

[38:05] you have up here we're seeing the the variation in different deconstruction costs do you have a per square foot cost for just scraping because that's been proposed by some community members so just scraping would essentially be your silver what we would be allowed to do in Boulder so what we would do in the silver which is our current codes which really don't prescribe any kind of recycling or reuse of materials we would have to abate the materials in there so the first phase would be abatement we would do soil testing again all of these numbers are excluding what we might find in the soils but then we would combine essentially interior and exterior deconstruction and we would take the building down all at once and just haul away the debris and that's what that would cost anyway that debris so that's as close as that's essentially a scrape and we've done a couple independent cost estimates

[39:00] on this project just to get that range and they're all falling within that that range thank you against before we get into the Silver Gold imply there just deconstruct versus not deconstruct roughly fifty dollars to deconstruct per square foot at roughly 500 to deconstruct and then renovate sorry and then of course if you deconstruct it to 50 you'd have to then build some build something to replace that have you got a back-of-the-envelope of how many housing I know that's a little bit funky how many housing units at $500 you could create in the existing shell versus how many housing units you could create in the same area brownfield in other words are in addition to the the cost 50 plus construction cost versus 500 or is it apples and apples on housing units or is it because the hospital is kind of funky the way it is you'd get you'd be less efficient on housing units if it was to be housing yeah that's that's I hadn't we've not done that analysis so that would be tough but I think some considerations are again two-thirds of that square

[40:01] footage has no access to natural light and any kind of housing would require a lot of access to natural light and so that would be one challenge I think that would be hard and recouping that I think is we've looked at the building 300,000 square feet is a lot of area to use for any one use and so while there's areas of the building that seem appropriate for one kind of reuse or another you're still talking about an entire massive system of a building that somehow has to get carved up and that's challenging given that below ground issue which is really important it's probably the ground so you really couldn't make it housing oh he's probably fair even though you know the numbers is probably fair to assume that we could create fewer housing units if we were to repurpose the building to housing and if we were to scrape the building and build housing in the same two or three acres is that fair yeah that's probably a fair assumption okay and that just to clarify that issue of that large floor plate is

[41:00] both the basement and the first floor that you have that issue of a massive floor play without access to natural light Thanks which is what makes the building really hard to adaptively reuse so I'm looking at the memo page 22 where it talks about silver gold and platinum and for the gold it says meets proposed 2020 energy code what does energy codes have to do with the construction because I can understand the recycling but yeah so in those codes they actually are now proposing you I'm going to turn to some of that draft language that we've had some new requirements on commercial deconstruction and so what is being looked at is presenting that a hundred percent of recyclable concrete and asphalt be recycled but that also 75% of total waste tonnage of construction and demolition debris generated from the project be diverted from landfills by at

[42:00] least three separate materials and so that is what we actually took into consideration in our gold option so if we were to develop this under that proposed 2020 code energy code do you mean the building code yeah that's what's confusing it was essentially a typo in the memo I think it didn't mean energy code right I think it meant building good building code yeah that's that's part of just to try and kind of connect the dots when Kristin Witco and Wilbur twilled were here about a month ago or so talking about the code update that's where this is coming from so did you so there's two parts one is whether to deconstruct or not I guess I'm just curious if somebody else deconstructed it besides us say they hit the same costs right roughly from all right I guess I guess maybe more importantly if

[43:02] we sold it without it being deconstructed we're trying to hand off the cost but presumably it just comes out of what we can get for it or they're likely gonna go with that silver option unless our codes you know by the time they do that dictate that higher level but their costs are gonna be roughly in line with that and in some of the real estate experts that we talked to we asked that direct question of okay if we just sold the property but left the hospital building standing how would a buyer potentially treat that and they said they would probably ask to deduct that expense from the purchase price okay good so is there an option that we could get our codes up to standard by if we were to sell it could we get him up to the point of the gold standard and so they would have to recycle my

[44:02] understanding is those are being proposed to go into effect in 2020 so I think any one of our timeline scenarios is we probably wouldn't have a sale through prior to that and we can't throw that into a contract stating that they need to be even though it's I think most likely they would end up deconstructing under that code by the time they got to that and you still have to go through the process of submitting for permit and all that and so by the time they do that they would be under that 2020 coated thanks but I guess the point is that whether we do it or somebody else does it somebody's gonna spend the money and we're either it the this is a question it'll be subtracted out of what we sell it for or we can do it ourselves but it's a wash is that what they tell us or do we sum out is there a way for us to come out ahead buy it out to me what's the financial implications of us doing it versus somebody else you know what I'm saying yeah I think it's a wash

[45:01] I just wash if we follow codes I think that's you know what we're finding it's roughly a wash if we follow codes the Platinum option that we have up there is something we've been looking at from previous council direction to look at the most sustainable approach the really the fundamental difference there that you won't get from anybody is that we've really methodically gone through and looked at what could be reused and are trying to look at reuse and are going above and beyond the 2020 codes even when it comes to recycling and so that's the incremental difference that you you know you would get out of this project but we can certainly come back to our gold which is recycling as much of the building as we can all right so listen let's figure out yeah well in your exploration of whether to wash or not if we're doing soils testing and we do it then at sale we will know what the soils condition are or will abate the soil

[46:00] whatever we find in it whereas if we sell it there's going to be the uncertainty of what's what they could in there and they mean one who deduct you know a higher amount because it's not clear what the soils piece is so one advantage of us doing it is there's probably a little more value in the properties that we sell because we know what's there okay I was just gonna make a process suggestion okay because there's a series of decisions here some of which impact further discussions down the road and this is effectively like a study session so I was just wondering if it would make sense to pause at different stages and right now it would be the logical places pause and say does counsel still it's just a straw poll does counsel still agree that deconstruction makes sense that we can then move into the gold silver or platinum and then pause to see where counsels on that just go through the Chris's list of things because I think if we're very methodical an iterative about it I think it's going to take us home to where we're home is as opposed to try and remember all this stuff and

[47:00] then yeah I think that was the whole point okay I'm not sure though about I would talk about silver that presumes that we're all on the same page as far as deconstruction well to me this affects yeah go ahead yeah I had a question for Sam and with respect to the soils abatement so are you saying that if we sold it that the soils testing or evaluation wouldn't be done as part of the due diligence I don't think so because the developer that whoever's buying it the buyers due diligence is I would think they're gonna assume the risk of the soils abatement anything that has to be done there as well as the cost of the deconstruction and if I were a buyer I would want to to

[48:01] make sure that I deducted as much as I could from the prices of the land to be able to cover the cost of this unknown soils abatement right isn't it unknown so that's that's a question for essentially that's how it would work so when we bought the property we did what's called a phase 1 and phase 2 environmental assessment which is an alysus that happens very commonly in real estate transactions a buyer would do something very similar based on or use the one that that we had prepared and they would use that to then assess what's the level of potential risk for purchasing this property knowing that there may or may not be things in the soils and so they would then factor that into their pro forma to help them determine what they would offer as a purchase price or is it and that's because you can't really do full soil testing with the buildings on top of it is that the deal that's one of the considerations yeah so there's an unknown there okay Bob wanted to vote on

[49:07] yes/no deconstruction and then talk silver gold versus talk silver and gold first all right we're gonna go your way and see how many people are inclined to deconstruct ourselves okay since Lisa was not here I think she was opposed to deconstruction yes I think she was and can I just say that I mean I think I've been very interested in deconstruction but I'm compelled by the staffs explanation of why I won't work and but also if the if the next stages I think we're positioning ourselves better for the next steps whatever they are if we deconstruct first I think there's a difference of opinion in our community about whether it's gonna cost us five hundred dollars a square foot to renovate the building or two hundred hours and maybe the numbers in between those two it's gonna cost us roughly 50

[50:01] to deconstruct what really persuades me whether it's two hundred five hundred is it's not going to cost us five hundred dollars a square foot to build housing there I suspect we don't know what the number is I suspect we could put a lot more housing and that same footprint if we were to brownfield constructed it and it would be a lot less than five hundred ollars a foot then if we were to try to jam it and artificially into a building that's been five hundred dollars to get less units that's kind of where I'm at well and I think it's safe to say if you couldn't reuse the hospital I for one would would want to but it's a it's it's a crazy building filled with lead and asbestos that doesn't have any access to light that's built what's a morgan crate i mean it does yeah so that's where I'm headed with that okay all right so silver gold platinum and I might note that for the purposes of the discussion that's going on an email about how much it might be useful at some point for you guys to

[51:00] break out the 500 bucks because if we have a cross for soft cost if we have a cost for furnishings and nobody else is including in theirs it's hard to compare apples to apples absolutely so maybe we should just go ahead and break that out for people so they will understand where the numbers are coming from okay so platinum what do people thinking on this and maybe you can just give us the high points of this so everybody's tracking it's taking the same old thing away from this chart sure so silver is the option if we pursued that today under our current building codes which don't really require any kind of recycling in commercial projects we would that range is about 11 to 13 million for trying to do it that way it would take about a year so a lot of that savings is strictly in labor cost that would come down so we would cut the time in half that comes out to about 28 to 33 dollars a square foot and again the phases in

[52:01] that is we would still have to abate the building but then we would essentially just take the whole building down all at once and Holloway to a landfill and then we would still do that psych rating and could put a finished grade on that the gold option is again under kind of what the proposed 2020 building codes are and so that's around the recycling standards there and so that now the real increase that you see there comes from the labor of sorting materials and sorting things like the steel the copper the aluminum that have some potential salvage value and in pulling that out we would then break this into again now the phases that we're talking about we would do interior deconstruction along with Bateman because we're sorting and then we would do our soils testing and then we would proceed with exterior deconstruction and then get into the site grading and so that's about a year and a half worth of time the Platinum

[53:00] option is the one that we've also been working on and this is where we've actually been looking at the site and how we can take that first level and we're talking about demoing and abating a whole area basically at the ER area and creating a warehouse that's almost like a shopping area we've been working with resource and other partners to look at what is possible to reuse from the building so they've come through and inventoried the building we have some other consultants one of which was one who worked on the scene Anthony's projects that I've talked about before in Denver who does a lot of this sort of inventory of materials so things like carpet tiles and ceiling tiles to actually look at what we could reuse and take out of the building hole before we get into actually recycling and putting things into dumpsters and then taking it away so that's that incremental cost up to the 16 million that 16 million I should also say it's about 15 for the actual deconstruction that 16 includes operation and maintenance and security and for that first year

[54:01] for all three numbers and so that project would take about two years because you know we've now pulled out the duration of what we're doing and the labor and the time that that takes and so the keys are the the first phase is really about an exhaustive disassembly for reuse first and then the phases kind of follow interior exterior and site creating so that's the kind of big differences I will say that a lot of this can also be determined through the bid process and that's when we construct the bid for the demo and abatement contractor we can ask for a lot more detail than is typical in a bid many times you're just asking people to take a building down and so whatever they decide to do with salvage value whatever they decide to do they're going to do the most economical thing for them to get that building down we would want to be somewhat artful in our bid and put alternates in so we could actually compare some costs about different variables actually see some

[55:01] transparency and what their salvage value costs might be or what are their projected it is a commodity so really at the end of the day it's what the price is at the time that they turn it in but we can get a lot more transparency in the bid to evaluate the difference there are hybrids between these like high-grade this stuff you take out and then get on with it as opposed to saving everything yep they're absolutely as I think you know at the end of the day the platinum option there's a point at which we have so much material in there and we likely will not find people who can use all of it so we're gonna have to find a time that we just have to keep moving and we're gonna recycle that so I think we can yeah there's gray throughout this yeah I'll just weigh in I'd like to take silver off the table I think we have to walk our talk and if we're holding people in the community to higher standards starting next year I think we need to meet that standard we can have interesting discussion between gold and platinum whether there's something in between those but I would take silver

[56:01] off the table I don't think we can demand something of our community and then not live up to it ourselves I know it's going to cost us an extra million or $2 but that's the cost of owning this property and even if we're not gonna sell the stuff you're reusing somebody's getting value out of that there is a community benefit to reuse even if it's not the taxpayers it's the residents or whatever okay well so do we have to choose between gold and platinum or can we say let's at least meet 2020 and and maybe high-grade some of the stuff but you you are gonna flood is not like resource I happen to know resource does not have room for all the stuff that's in it okay you're on in there Mary yeah I don't think we need to make a specific determination but maybe I maybe we could focus on a little bit on timeline say like hey really creative abatement reuse

[57:02] people we got eighteen months how good can you do you know and particularly cuz you can also extract some value out of some of that reuse stuff so that people might come back with some creative alright that's the thing that I think really gets me is how long but the fact that everything has to be sequential and it feels like it's taking that it's gonna take forever it's hard to swallow so I think yeah if we could somehow get creative and try to push that a bit knowing that construction projects always take longer than you plan one yeah one thing I will put out with the time is so there are then decisions on the heels of that you know I think understanding that we may or may not be ready to make the next step with what our next some of its going to be a consideration of when we're ready to if we're going to renovate the pavilion so some of those things will be drivers about some of the timing there's some in interplay there also can you be more

[58:00] specific what's the first obstacle yeah maybe maybe a way to describe it is that staff team we've put together kind of what's the timing chart from you decommission the building you start deconstruction then you've got to start drawing your drawings if you're going to renovate the pavilion so that by the time the building is down you've got your crew ready to renovate the pavilion so it's not standing there empty for a long period of time so there's like lots of cascading things that happen so I think that's what Michele was referring to is if you hurry up one step but you don't plan to bring everything forward a little bit more that's the timing piece but if if the direction from Council is to look at trying to make the timeline as efficient as possible we can work on trying to see how we can make that happen that you should give 18 months to the contractor and require the 2020 recycling standards and and get the best that we can it

[59:01] saves a half a million dollars in security costs and so on as well right so I want to just wanted to point out there's an additional monetary benefit to being able to do it in a year and a half right and I do think there's room for creativity I mean there's let's try not to be a bureaucracy about this if we're done with giving you instructions with gold I do have a question that you may not know the answer to and I'm not suggesting that we would do this I'm just more of curiosity I know we're gonna talk about the pavilion building a little later on tonight you guys done it back the envelope of what it would cost because I know we have to be kind of precious how we tear down around the pavilion building which presumably in and of itself has a cost is that cost of deconstructing around the pavilion building and some internal in the pavilion building greater than if we just tore the pavilion building down as well have you did you run that cost yeah we did look at that cost which is

[60:00] greater it's about a wash wash yeah yeah we've sliced this a number of different ways you just took a wrecking ball knocked the thing down it's probably if we did gold we never really considered silver until recently so it's it's more of a gold standard when we looked at just you know if we just went ahead and demoed the pavilion I believe that cost was around 2 million dollars I'd have to check but I think that was it versus it's not that delicate again it's a little bit where the sequencing of the projects you know what we've estimated is what it would cost to patch back some temporary walls right and so into the pavilion and then bring some mechanical equipment in and keep that building alive or integrated into these yeah just to summarize let's say we wind up picking them hybrid in gold and platinum and 18 months and it comes in 215 million dollars but preserving the pavilion building what you're saying is were we to tear down the pavilion building using the same standards it still be about 15 million

[61:01] dollars give or take a million okay okay yeah this is great so we'll continue to bring forward an adjustment to the base request for the deconstruction for consideration next week I know we'll probably this is just a big picture for the audience that's watching where's this money coming from we know I know is gonna be an adjustment to base but did we'd like have like 15 million dollars is kind of laying around or to spread out over time or where does the money come from yeah if you want to go ahead well sorry Sheryl's gymnastic yeah Patel er chief financial officer will answer this question yeah thank you so we are proposing that this funding come from the excess funds that we have from 2018 and that totals about fourteen

[62:01] million dollars so that's where the majority of this we would propose comes from but that would in fact pretty much wipe out any of those excess funds over our reserve limits good seat cushions you found it our seat cushions something like that yes the right I think we are done with this one okay should we go to pavilion renovation next - would that be helpful is that what you're suggesting so back earlier this year in February we

[63:00] presented to you kind of a test fit or to test fits if you will on a renovation of the pavilion building and we were really testing what the kind of capacity of that building was to consolidate city services what we were looking at was the ability to focus on our three kind of primary buildings that are kind of a greatest concern if you will Park Central New Britain which both need to come out of the high hazard flood zone and then Center green where we have an expensive lease annual lease payment and so the minimum square footage we were looking to accommodate was about 70,000 square feet and about 260 staff our first test fit which is as the building as is would be able to accommodate that that grouping of buildings so it would accommodate about 75,000 square feet in some range of 260 to 275 staff we also looked at the ability to put on the additional floor because it was one thing that we found in our reuse analysis about this building it was

[64:00] actually built very well and it was structured to actually foresee a future floor so the structure can accommodate that and what we looked at here was a blend of either providing community amenity space which was just something we had heard out of the Alpine balsam vision plan but we did also test fit how many more staff you could get out of that space it was an additional about 18,000 square feet could be 20,000 we didn't maximize that entire roof footprint but ultimately you get about a 93 thousand square foot building and we could get anywhere from 260 to 300 staff that additional staff is actually equal to about the staff that we have in the atrium building right now so in essence you could consolidate for buildings into this building and again it would be through kind of our first phase of design that we would really balance the trade-offs between you know how many staff we accommodate in there and the other kind of amenities we want

[65:00] but we believe we could accommodate that number of staff and many of the amenities that we're looking to achieve with kind of a customer service hub in a centralized building so that was sort of the analysis that we presented there and the different options that benefit that we saw of the additional story again you get 18 to 20,000 square feet you get to consolidate that fourth building this is also the best time to do it you're never going to come back and put that story on the building you've got to bring elevators up you essentially have to rip off a roof you would never do that over an occupied building or if you did you know your costs would likely double to do something like that so this is really an opportune time to do that and it really preserves our options and enhances our flexibility in the future so we think it's a value it's it's nine million to put that additional story on what that nine million doesn't really account for is again the kind of economy and efficiency we get when we consolidate our staff so we we duplicate spaces we duplicate restrooms we

[66:00] duplicate lobby spaces all kinds of amenities the more we can consolidate staff into one building we can achieve these sort of shared approaches with all of those staff but we can really reduce the amount of common amenity spaces so that's a little hard to get is you're not talking about accommodating 15 more staff in 18,000 square feet you're adding amenities but that's not what this says and so that right presumably there be something else going on in that 18,000 square feet it's a trick it's one it's somewhat of a trade off it's one or the other and the test fit that we presently know but it doesn't mention any of the amenities problem so we're looking at apples and oranges here trying to decide whether we want to accommodate 15 more staff or for nine million dollars and that answer would be no but we don't know yeah maybe I'll add a little bit of context big picture if council will remember I think it was late 2008 2017 we

[67:01] I had a conversation about the reuse of the pavilion and we really wanted to understand is this a good idea or not and so we actually commissioned and worked with the Urban Land Institute to do a technical advisory panel on the reuse of the pavilion and then following that we then had an architecture firm really do a deep dive analysis of this and those conversations and working through that was really really helpful that's what really for me at least answered oh if you were to tear this building down you'd end up building one back almost in the same spot oh the building is built out of concrete that means it's really really well built and so you that makes a lot of sense to reuse a building that's how it has a really good structure the other thing that you see up on the pictures and Mishelle correct me if I get the colors wrong but the brown areas that are shaded in those floor plans are public spaces so larger conference rooms or meeting spaces and so we have some

[68:00] choices as we would enter into the process of renovation of the building to decide how we want to utilize the space inside that building so right now we've we've essentially anticipated as Michelle described that there could be some larger public spaces in the building maybe we we decide that we want to be as efficient as possible in terms of consolidating buildings and so michelle has put this kind of design process flowchart together that starts to describe the first step we would do is enter into a program phase where we would start to do that analysis and so we gave you some snapshots of numbers but as we go through the programming and disk ematic design phase is where we'd really start to understand what our what our capacity would be so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't hang your hat too much on exactly those numbers we would still have a lot of design work to do if we decide we're gonna renovate this building and if we're gonna add the fourth floor so Cindy do Mary so I'm

[69:04] also wondering what's going to happen with the space where the atrium is now what's the plan for that in conjunction with how if the atrium people were to move into this building and the other was again looking at resources that we have how we're gonna use them one of the things that the library bless you Aaron had wanted to do was to add more seating to the auditorium there so that there there could actually be more community use of an existing building that's already there I don't remember what the cost was but we were talking about this on Tuesday nights nine million seems like a lot to be putting that on for some unknown kind of thing in the future other than this small number of employees relatively small I should say that's a lot of employees and a lot of trips in that area as well okay so the

[70:00] question you want answered is what was happened to the atrium yep so the Civic area master plan identifies we had kind of three phases of that project first is Park at the core then we've got the East bookend and then eventually the West bookend we've done the park at the core work and that's complete the next phase is the East bookend we were working on kind of essentially East bookend and Alpine balsam together and right now we are focused on Alpine balsam so East bookend is is waiting once we get this work done then we can start to circle back to the East bookend and what's envisioned there and part of this is to answer those questions about city services as well councils had discussions previously to that so the future of the East bookend the future of the atrium is still a conversation to be had thank you Mary so in the previous slide I noticed that there was a lot of

[71:01] brown on the fourth floor and so to get a better idea of what that nine million dollars would get us how many employees might fit in that Brown if it were instead of an amenity yeah so the atrium building is about 30 employees so that's what we're talking about is that additional and yeah that's it's so it's 30 again this was sort of a quick study of what might fit and what Chris had showed in that other timeline is what we really need to enter into is a robust programming phase where we get some stakeholders involved we consider all of our facilities what are the true needs and so we can really balance what type of amenities should be in the building balanced with how many staff are in the building what we have figured with this is that we could consolidate the equivalent of four buildings the number of staff and roughly the same number of square footage with the fourth

[72:01] floor and still get space left over for amenities that we have been talking about kind of across the city so meeting space large kind of gathering spaces things that we've talked about at Alpine balsam but those are all things that we would want to flesh out further in a real programming phase this is really just a test fit so there's a lot of options to be had here ok so so we don't really know if that rough Brown shaded area were accommodating employees instead of meeting spaces how many employees that might be it's about it's about 30 more employees Yeah right cuz 18,000 square feet 30 employees that 600 square feet employee do our who do we really office it 600 we don't actually atrium buildings are closer to 10,000 square feet so that's what I'm saying is it it's we would get the 30 plus still

[73:00] maintain some ability reason question was like if you were if let's say you made it all into office space as I'm understanding your question 18,000 square feet you got some elevator or whatever like what's your sort of employee capacity if we decided to use it all for office space if we maxed the whole building out crammed everybody in we could get more standard we are using about a hundred and seventy square feet per person okay so then a hundred employees if we crammed yeah if we really match this just to make this so that was my question that was that's not to say that you need to cram 170 employees on the fourth floor but just had a better idea of scale scale okay and I think maybe in terms of the logic phasing of a process first I think we'd be looking for direction and feedback on do we want to use the pavilion if yes then we'll start entering into that schematic design phase and programming

[74:01] phase I should say where we can start to actually answer these questions understand the cost benefit of the fourth-floor in more detail and so I think that's part of why we don't have an exact number for you tonight is we we haven't conducted any of that work yet and do we need to we have a queue sorry but just process-wise do we need to decide fourth floor tonight you do not okay so let's not spend too much more time we have Sam Bob Aaron and then back to you so I just wanted to observe that in test fit one it's about 280 square feet for employee because it includes stairwells and all that stuff too and so if we use that same on on the upper floor to be about 60 employees you know which includes the area that the employees don't occupy so I think that's the main thing to come back with is understanding that it's difficult to justify the nine million dollars if it's just amenities that we

[75:03] don't understand what it is that's where the the difficulty is so the amenities need to be described I mean an additional meeting space is great it's obviously he did but you know community space on the fourth floor doesn't make any sense you know most people I don't think people who would go into those buildings aren't going to say hey I want to go to the fourth floor for an amenity and so we've got the terrace we kind of considered the renovation of the daily camera building where actually there's there's some beautiful views to be it's not bring that one up so I know we're not deciding between test fit one and has been to which I'm finding Park that but I'm still struggling with the cost of test fit one because I think you said was a but I know it's a swag now can whole Genie numbers I'm gonna assume that your plus or minus like twenty percent I think he said it was like 51 million dollars for test fit one date

[76:01] no no 58 I think is testament to how much is test well you're right you're right 50 40 yeah 40 79 minus 9 million that's like that's like six or seven hundred dollars per square foot for an existing building I understand the five hundred dollars a square foot they had the eighteen thousand square feet that makes sense to me I don't understand how it's gonna cost us six or seven hundred dollars per square foot to get out an existing building definitely since you told us that part of the 15 million dollars for the demo included internal demo for the pavilion billions a week I make sure we're not double counting that but how was it I mean we could build a new building for less than 700 ollars of square foot well these prices for 2024 start and and we have been seeing that kind of escalation and then and so that is one of the considerations into that number but we can break down those costs as was talked about earlier we have the soft cost it also includes that master

[77:00] site development so the development of the right-of-way around the building so road improvements and other pieces of infrastructure around the site this building with those costs that is how a project when we have a site would have to be developed yeah we would have to essentially develop our parcel including the site on there so we would have those right away improvements to make the problem is that this this renovation of this building at 700 ollars of foot which is more than it would cost to build it remember we've already paid for the plant - right so it's really more than 47 million because it's the allocable portion of 40 million which we've already paid right because we we paid 40 million for the dirt or something right the building and so we're gonna we're just for that ability that building alone we're gonna be into this for like 55 or 60 million dollars which just blows my mind for 75,000 square foot building I mean any builder in town could build you a 75,000 square foot building anywhere you want and included for a lot less than that and the problem is is really skewing artists

[78:02] on the lease versus use the pavilion Billy I'm it really really pushes pushes me towards lease because it just it blows the model so I am really questioning those numbers you don't need a decision tonight not only on one versus two but whether we keep the pavilion billion or sell it or tear it down I'd really like you to come back with with real numbers I mean maybe those are the real numbers but there are numbers that are not quite credible to me you know this is where break it out even if you're just guessing you still have those breaks up we do otherwise we're inviting as part of that show us you know do an RFP for RF I ask guest builders what they would charge us to build us any 5,000 square foot building in town assuming the land was already acquired yes and I'll just first just to piggyback on that I mean that really that I think would help us to break that out into those component

[79:00] pieces right that that you know what is the right-of-way cost what's the furniture and fixture and and and then be real clear about the lease alternative which of those chunks would you is that lease alternative really equivalent to you know because it's not all of it right so there's that I just one quick thing on just I want to keep it in mind here is that one of the things I think that the potential benefits of this site is as a really beautiful neighborhood gathering place in an amenity place so just keep that in mind this we're thinking about the pavilion use and and whether there's some additional space and whether there's some any space is that if there are you know clauses and meeting space and gathering space and things like that I think that's part of what makes this eventually when it's built a a potential net positive for the surrounding area Cindy mm-hmm I just wanted to go back to the numbers of trips which goes to the

[80:01] costs to the roadways to transportation and said let's let's so but not was a factor in this though with a pavilion with the numbers of employees that are coming in there if we're bringing in employees from four buildings it's just it seems like a huge upgrade in terms of numbers of trips in that neighborhood and so it's to me a consideration okay Bob in Sam but so time together what Cindy just said in what Aaron just said in addition to finding out how much it would cost us to build a seventy-five thousand square foot building someplace else I'd also like to know if we did tear that building down because we just made a decision to not spend five hundred dollars to renovate a building four foot and turn down 450 now we're talking about renovating a building for 700 and purses turning down 450 so we're being inconsistent with that decision just because we happen to own this building doesn't mean that's the building that would put our employees in you put our employees in any building maybe at least versus build and so if we were to tear this down for $50 a foot rather than

[81:01] renovated at 700 ollars a foot I'd like to know what could go there could it be a public amenity as Aaron suggested could it be housing if so how many housing units because we keep the building we're not putting housing units there right and then and then that does go to Cindy's question what's the impact on the community if there's 300 employees there what's the impact in the community versus if there's you know 15 houses there and so I think to make a decision we need to have all that information what are the alternatives let's just not use this building because we happen to own it every hole to buy although the fact that it's a cement building means somebody should hold it okay so good so as first traffic goes prior to the shutdown of the hospital there were people and all these buildings how many people were employed

[82:01] by the hospital roughly we actually have done that analysis and I might have gene dive into this this is information that you're gonna get on June 4th there's a part of the area plan conversation so we did traffic studies based on the different scenarios in the area plan and one of the key findings is that that proposed scenarios with the area plan including city services at this site will generate trips at a level that is less than half of the traffic that was estimated to have been generated during the active hospital so there were six hundred to a thousand people working in that building plus visitors plus patients so it was a pretty active site at its peak as the hospital has moved out traffic is obviously dipped in the number of trips have dipped but we went ahead and modeled what that would look like and the the trips that it would be generated is less than half great I just wanted to get that out to make sure we

[83:00] understood that so we're gonna we're gonna traffic study on June 4th so we can have more of a conversation on it if that would be helpful on June 4th so if you go back to I just want to tie a bow on the pavilion here so what we're saying is a break out the costs and the benefits right but I guess what the question you're asking about the billion tonight is no direct question on the pavilion tonight that would be a conversation as a part of the area plan okay all right okay maybe as we move to next steps I thought you were looking for more direction on this let us know ahead of time what how much you're looking for that if we this conversation was actually really helpful and part of that is for us you know we don't want to do too much analysis doing a bunch of cost estimating on a building that we may not have any interest in actually

[84:01] using so what I'm hearing tonight is that there is an interest in looking at reusing the pavilion for city services we need to understand and unpack those costs to make sure that this is a fiscally prudent decision to make and so we'll work on bringing back the breakout of those costs is that a fair assumption that is is if it turns out it's not seven hundred because you did a great analysis in Exhibit A of the lease versus using the pavilion building it turns out that the cost the pavilion building is dramatically less it might be then then obviously that's gonna have to redo that analysis because then the billion guns going to look more attractive than it did in Exhibit A the last thing I'll just flag to is as we look at least versus own if we're gonna own our building like this one this is a purpose-built building we're building a building for 50 to 100 years and so we're designing it as a customer service hub versus leased space we would just move into a building and we wouldn't do

[85:00] that purpose-built design and so that's part of what we're also designing for is we're designing for a 50 to 100 year life span of a building for a very very specific municipal government service okay and that's a point well taking that will come up in the area planning process right okay what's our next topic we can dive into additional costs if we'd like to or dive into more of the options but if not then we can circle back to the questions that we had framed for Council in the memo that's what I mean oh wait where's the list of five things one of them was flood for example I think we want to at some point we want to check that one yeah so so why don't why don't we do that before we talk financing should we talk flood mitigation yes please let me pull up and I'm a I'm gonna kind of start to kick this piece off what I wanted to start with was actually just a step back on Goose Creek and explaining a little bit

[86:00] more of Goose Creek so if we look at this and I'm gonna see if this is gonna work here I don't know if it is I see I've got a laser pointer up here so this is Broadway here this is Pearl Street down here and this is 28th Street so if we look at this this is Goose Creek so it goes from downstream the confluence with Boulder Creek and Goose Creek actually does split there's a lower and upper down here this is the lower and then it continues west past 28th Street and past Folsom and then it basically stops the the actual Creek itself at about 19th Street the Alpine balsam site is over here where that green or yellow star is so where's the water go and come from the water comes from the neighborhood in this whole big area over here and how does it get from over here

[87:01] to the creek itself goes like that all over the place it flows through the streets is basically how it works it flows through our storm sewer system until that gets overwhelmed and a big rainstorm or in a flood and it finally makes its way kind of towards that channel and so we've been doing flood mitigation on Goose Creek since the 1980s so the 1980s to the early 2000s we did a whole bunch of mitigation work in this section of the creek and we did that mitigation to a hundred-year level so think of the way the flood engineers described it to me and I'm gonna play one on TV here is it's a hundred year straw that we've built for that section of the creek when we look from 19th Street West it's really constrained in that area and so 100-year mitigation might not actually be remotely possible and so it's really constrained we may only have a five to ten year straw in that section from 19th Street to basically Broadway and and West what

[88:03] we've been talking about with the Alpine balsam project is hundred-year mitigation and part of the reason that we were looking at that was thinking about this is essentially kind of the headwaters of Goose Creek for lack of a better description and if we can detain some of that water before it goes downstream it might have a great downstream benefit to where now that five or ten-year mitigation from Broadway to 19th Street actually is more like 50 or something more than that your mitigation so it would be a big benefit to the downstream users so we've been doing that analysis looking at detention in North Boulder Park and in the previous discussions with Council we heard Direction hate be very careful with North Boulder Park look at what detention would do make sure it doesn't mess up the park we just literally last week got that engineering analysis back there water at North Boulder Park is basically

[89:00] at the surface which means you can't really go down at all or now you create a lake and it's not really helping anything and so in order to detain the amount of water to have a downstream impact would be a really big detention pond in North Boulder Park and might not be a good option anymore and so what we're gonna talk about this more on on June 4th is we might need to reassess what level of flood mitigation we look at for this Alpine balsam site knowing that we might not create that downstream benefit that we were thinking we were going to be able to create and so we're looking at options of what would less detention be and is there still a downstream benefit and if there isn't then maybe what makes the most sense is just to look at what would mitigation just on our city-owned property look like like what would a private developer do to mitigate the flood impacts on their site so does that help give a little bit context of kind of where we're at and ground us it's very helpful so one of the things that said in the

[90:00] memo was that the reason that we were looking at doing upstream detention was so that the building's built on our site didn't have to do the raising out of the floodplain correct and so there's what impact does not doing that have on the way construction will have to occur on the site are we able to make it so that the buildings that are built there don't have to be flood proofed and that's the additional analysis that we just talked about with our engineers to start this last week yes let's understand what would it take if we're not going to get that downstream benefit that we were thinking we might how do we do still dry up as much of the site as possible so that maybe we reduce the hundred-year flood plain on the site itself and that's the analysis that we we just gave them some direction to go work on thanks Mary then Aaron and Chris that upstream detention

[91:01] at North Boulder Park had a price tag associated with it Dannette it did our back of the napkin estimate at this point was in a kind of 15 million dollar range so that that could potentially go away correct that number could change pretty drastically depending on what we decide to do thank you thanks for that Chris can people hear me is the microphone working I'm not sure that said it wasn't but how about this no it still no so I'll just shout the so Chris had clarified them the the the flood detention levels that we were looking at before in our previous conversations that was really about a kind of neighborhood level flood mitigation rather than mitigating the buildings for the construction of the buildings on the outline balsam site itself that's correct so we're in the middle of upper Goose Creek and 2 Mile Creek 2 Mile

[92:00] Creek is north of here and it basically kind of dumps through the neighborhood and meets Goose Creek at about 19th Street so we've been in a flood study and now mitigation planning for upper Goose Creek as well as 2 Mile Creek and so that's where we kind of now merged these projects together a little bit to figure out how do we do neighborhood level mitigation including those downstream benefits and so we kind of hook the two projects together for a little while and so that's what we were really looking at it's neighborhood level not just this site alone right so then what we're looking at then potentially going forward is more about how do we how do we just deal with the flood waters from this site the flood waters that arrived on this site and what we may be able to do is look at a phased approach as well we may need to do some downstream flooding provements from the 19th through kind of Broadway section and that's actually phased and scheduled with the money in the CIP in upcoming years so it could be that we

[93:01] also do some mitigation on the Alpine balsam side itself and then let some additional flood mitigation work downstream happen that would then inform how we might handle it so we're talking about maybe do some analysis should we just reserve some SIA some space on the Alpine balsam parcel for future flood mitigation knowing that that'll be dependent on some downstream actions and first so those are the sorts of options and analysis that we're working on now okay anything I just asked is that you know when you say like look at mitigation on this site just be very clear about how much of it is the typical amount required for any site worry like oh you need a detention area for the runoff from this site versus what we might look at to lend a benefit to the community as a whole so I think it's important to make that distinction it hasn't always been clear yeah we can make sure that we're clear thank you yeah and I think just to follow up on what Aaron said it it is unusual to tag the site with neighborhood so in other

[94:02] words if we were going to do the detention and all the parks say that was going to go ahead and go forward and it has impacts on more than just this site then maybe only a portion of that could have been assigned to the site rather than the entire bed yep I agree with that and I'm glad that some of the pressures being taken off the park because I was a little alarmed by what making it into a dependent detention pod would have looked like so this is good news so just to completely understand what what Sam the point that Sam just made so what you're saying Sam is that even taking Alpine balsam out of the picture some sort of detention may have been needed anyway yes yes and so Chris just mentioned here but doing those mitigation projects is something

[95:01] normally that Public Works would undertake right and it would be attributed to floodwater and it would be part of the utility function and so I just didn't think we wanted to tangle up the cost for something that has a broad benefit in a specific project all of which is inflating what's happening here in a way that makes us although why does this cause so much yeah yeah well and kind of the converse of that to Chris's point about phasing it as well as long as we're taking of care flood mitigation for the community as a whole we might as well plan for that for the effect that that mitigation has on this particular site yes yeah okay well that's helpful is there question about this or more this is just so that okay yeah this was more context we thought it might be helpful to have this conversation part of what we were

[96:01] hearing was that concern back from April 9th about there's a really big price tag sticker shock and so we wanted to make sure that we level set on that the flood mitigation it really is it's depending on this engineering analysis and it may or may not actually be that price tag okay okay excellent okay what was the other list financial yeah any other financial costs or with that then we can either do any further discussion of the options or bring up the council questions oh I do financial question yeah me too do you have finances we have the finances kind of as it was broken out in each option but let's go ahead with questions and then if there's a back up side that helps it will jump to it okay on the different options but particularly the option a where where you say can we get

[97:01] the the dollar amounts up for that you had on that timeline at least okay so the there's the different costs here and it includes selling you know whatever two-thirds of the side or something like that and then you're saying well we'll get 18 to 32 million out of that to then offset the purchase cost another development cost right so does that then assume that whoever bought that site would be funding any affordable housing on the site themselves let me make sure I hear your question correctly is what you're asking is if we move forward and we're going to sell off pieces of the site and we do affordable housing on one of those parcels are they still buying land is that right assuming this is like a market rate purchase and then they're the whoever buys it was responsible for building any affordable housing come without city subsidy yeah we have some we have some options and I

[98:00] might have Curt jump up here to dive into it more but we have some options about how we sell-off land on this site we could sell it all at once or we could phase it as well we could sell one parcel say to an affordable housing provider where they want to then do a tax credit project then we might sell another parcel to a market rate housing developer who would then build market rate housing so we have some options or we could sell the whole thing and somebody could master develop that whole whole piece with a combination of affordable and market rate so we do have some options but then I think Curt might be helpful too and encourage you is you come up and answer to answer that that just what I'm trying to get at here is that when we're looking at the finances of course of housing and particularly affordable housing is a major potential goal for this site we've talked about a lot and did it and we want to see how that goal tracks through the financing because it seems like right now it's not in the financing at all and so optionally right now just include money

[99:00] for a but Curt please so Curt for Howard director of housing Human Services so I think the so one of the concepts here in which you've rightly identified is the affordable housing component is separate from this so someone would purchase this property for 18 million they would have to create affordable housing in some way either on the site or off the site or whatever the options are what we've been looking at this as what affordable housing could be created within the confines of the site without further investment so similar to how it's done at 30 pearl different parts of the site facilitate that or one part of the site will put money into the other affordable components of the sites so we've looked at different options with different densities so there's a range of affordable housing depending on the density that

[100:00] you know what would be created for the site if we wanted additional affordable housing probably above 25% we'd probably have to invest additional funds beyond this okay so basically this scenario includes 25% affordable housing yeah although there could be a range of that depending on the amount of rental and ownership it could be anywhere from twenty to thirty percent I would say so so if we want more affordable housing than that then it requires additional investment past what's in this that's correct we if we looked at all and it says so there's the land sale option we talk to it all about donation of land to affordable housing developers and like guys that one of the scenarios we're looking at so that would I would see that simply as an additional investment into affordable housing above and beyond that because it would reduce that amount that we had that's correct

[101:01] reduce your it reduce your 18 million but it would create more for lousy I guess you could donate that or you could also hold on to a right I mean you could you could retain the land and that's correct it's something like that yeah but that would essentially require additional investment yes so my question kind of relates to Aaron so Kurt don't go please so mostly what we're looking at at the moment is is rental housing options is that correct because that's just kind of what happens right now okay so I think I understand your question through option a and I think Chris alluded to this that we would have a little more control of the land so kind of similar to Pollard where we did have for sale right so we could potentially influence that certain

[102:00] parcels are for sale certain parcels are rental and create a mix that would be beneficial to what we're trying to create and how would phasing was mentioned so would of phasing so say similar to the way the pollard work or the similar to the weight evap work actually where some it was all parceled up and phased in so that some parcels were held longer some more sold off sooner things like that how would that influence the potential affordable housing and also the I guess and this would be a question for Chris the the financial the fiscal outcome of the initial purchase of the site so if I could give maybe a couple of examples so

[103:00] let's say in that phasing that the the first piece you wanted to create was an affordable housing building or components the the challenge with that is we would sell that that property to affordable housing developer or our housing authority we wouldn't have the additional benefit of the rest of the site I'm to invest into that so we wouldn't have the benefit of the cross functioning of that financing one of the advantages is it could go up in value over time as well the market components if you did an overall plan for the for the sites with with different components of ownership and a rental you could you know you could really look at different options which which we could create in June as well okay yeah I think it's Kurt

[104:03] described it it's really a it's a cash flow decision mm-hmm you know if you sell it all at once then now you get you know a bigger check and then you can use that to support affordable housing you could use it to support some of the site improvements if you want to sell over time kind of parcel by parcel you just depending on what parcel you sell you'd have to decide how you want to manage that cash flow if it's affordable housing first it may be that we need to provide funding to support that and then wait a while and as Kurt said then you know the land value may increase a little bit and then you'd sell off another parcel and it may be worth a little bit more those are policy decisions that we could make from a cash flow standpoint and so what if you were to parcel it off the whole site as as a whole there would likely be some parcels that might be more valuable than others and so what might one do in a

[105:02] case like that if if you parceled it in pieces and then looked at it hmm this one here is like really valuable and if we hold on to it for two years it really makes sense so I mean how would we go about doing something like that I think that's something that we could look at through the area planning process we could put some guidance in the plan related to that I'm relating back to the transit Village area plan there's a phasing mechanism in the transit Village area plan so we're right now only implementing phase one of T vApp it's 160 acres overall only the area from 30th Street East to the railroad tracks is in phase one so everything from the railroad tracks to foothills is in Phase two we have not started land use and rezoning because that's all privately owned here we're essentially the property owner of this entire parcels so we've got more control over the phasing but if we wanted to describe a phasing

[106:02] plan in the area plan we could and so that would be maybe one mechanism that we could look at on the fly here but that'd be an approach and so we could say do a phasing plan that a maximizes our fiscal responsibility to the people and B maximizes our affordable housing yeah so if you wanted to have a phasing plan that said either start with affordable housing or start with the market rate housing depending on your objectives related to cash flow that's something that we could look at and then and then I guess the third thing could be the benefits of the flood mitigation that's going on for the entire community so some marry one thing that might be helpful if you remember back on on 30th and pearl I think it was about two and a half years ago we did a study that we presented the City Council they kind of looked at different bookends of how we

[107:00] could develop but the the various levels of affordability when you start looking both at density and units ownership types we could do a similar exercise on this site that was done by a consultants but I think City Council found that very helpful yeah yeah okay thank you soon so I just wanted to bring up two affordable housing that the Community Benefit definition will likely be done by then and the first phase of the definition of Community Benefit and site plan review is to have affordable housing be the community benefit that gets looked at in site plan review so it seems likely that we will get more than 25% affordable housing here or additional money in there cash in lieu as the market rate developments happen and they have to if they want you know hide exemption or floor area ratio

[108:00] exemption from the zoning that they're more affordable housing I'm funding for affordable housing will flow from that market rate development and it also seems married to your idea of phasing that doing market rate first will produce funding for affordable housing that can then be used to contribute to affordable housing projects wherever we designate it so when we go through the area plan it seems like we could state our goals for affordable housing we could state where we think we'd like it to go we want it all on-site or do we want just the 25% on-site and and kind of think through the mechanics of how the market rate will fund the affordable and so the money would definitely be in place by the time the for the book came whether or not the land was donated we might have other options with that so it seems like that should be part of the direction we give at the area plan discussion is how we

[109:02] want that to work but I thought Pollard was really well done and I think that that's kind of what giving the direction of maximizing affordable housing would be I mean I wouldn't want to constrain it to say let's have the market rate happen first I just want to say do a phased plan and see how we get the affordable housing maximized right thanks well and same things for that of course the community and if it would produce additional funds if the if the buildings are above a certain density level right yeah so if I could if I could just work through a little bit more on the finances if you can indulge me here just to I'm trying to figure out that the the bottom line for the 25% affordable housing so we have a sense of what the cost of the city is of that and then of course additional affordable housing would cost more so is I'm understanding this so we've got the the deconstruction right which we have the money from for additional funds from

[110:01] 2018 right so there's that piece there's the share of site improvements and flood mitigation looking like that will be on the lower end because where it looks like we probably aren't going to do a huge amount of flood mitigation I don't know maybe that's five eight million or some you know something like that in terms of one-time cost and then in terms of our current annual costs we're we've got three million a year to pay back the site costs for the forty million we purchased it for and for the pavilion remodel if we do that we're looking at three to four million a year so we're looking at six to seven million a year in costs which would be then offset by selling the land for 20-odd million maybe something like that and so so that's you know we're in for five or eight million you're minus 20 now you're so you've got maybe 13 million in excess plus 6 7 to 8 was it 6 to 7 million a year which so you might knock that back

[111:02] if you invest that maybe it's 7 you're six million a year or something like that does that sound about right so maybe the oli and if we do all of this and we renovate the pavilion and we get 25 percent affordable housing we end up with maybe a city requirement long 30 years of six odd million a year yeah I think that's a great way to look at it is then and then to compare that to what are the objectives we're trying to achieve and if the objectives are city services and housing now you can look at I think we're achieving those objectives and as I've started to weave all wrestled with the finances and how to describe it we had a dual-purpose function of buying this site one was a government services purpose and one was for steering the redevelopment and let's say it's for housing that's the focus of the conversation on the housing side you have expenses and then you have income and you want that number to work right for what you want to achieve on the

[112:01] government services side you have expenses but it's infrastructure in the end our buildings are just like our infrastructure it's where we provide our services from similar to bike paths and pipes and there's so there's no income line item on that side of the pro forma its expenses or alternate expenses so I think that's what you described is exactly that it's we have an ongoing expense related to providing the infrastructure that we need to provide for this community and then we have a housing return that we can decide where we where we put that money okay and then because the the least cost alternative is three odd million a year something like that great so now we're looking at 3 million or a little less a year maybe net cost to the city over 30 odd years in order to make this scenario happen with a kind of baseline of affordable housing with additional investments getting us more affordable housing that is a decent summary yep okay thank you I mean I've been waiting for that number

[113:01] for my whole time on council so now I feel like I have much better numbers we'll shift a little bit if we don't have to do 15 million on flood mitigation well that included I mean like you know it's a follow-up question okay I'm sorry well I mean yeah I want to I want to know take that and make it fifty percent affordable housing because I do think yeah that's the next question all right well that my question is because I would I think that there's an appetite for that on this site and getting just 25 percent I don't think it's good enough so I do think we want to build that into our thinking of the services provided per dollar of taxpayer money and I don't know if you've done that math but I would love to kind of understand that as we get to me it's important as part of the area planning process to build expectations around the investments and

[114:01] what we're getting for them and to me that's a level we'd want to get to so if I can say like the reason why is establishing that baseline it's on is kind of that's what you get from from just selling it with our current requirements my guess is that the amount of investment required to get to 50 percent affordable housing will be heavily dependent on the number of units that we have on site okay so that and we need those questions answered yep and that's kind of the process that we're trying to work through with the area plan as we brought scenarios in terms of how what what the land use and zoning could look like in terms of intensity of number of units and so once we start to land on what's the level of intensity and get some policy direction on the level of affordable housing then we can start to run more of what those numbers would look like obviously it's variable dependent on where the tax credit market is and those sorts of things but we can at least start to have an understanding of the range if that makes sense so that's the process we've been in is we started

[115:01] really wide in the area plan and now we've been slowly narrowing and narrowing so we're down to a few options that's what we're gonna bring in June and say are these the right options to take tout to the community and if the answer is yes take those out to the community we'll have some conversations and then based on that feedback from the community then we will end Council and Planning Board we will then bring forward a draft area plan and that's what we would bring forward for review in August and adoption in September very okay so my question that was raised in this little conversation here was on the the whole site financing so that was done with the certificates of participation right and there were there was more than one building that was encumbered to to be able to finance this so my question is

[116:01] is as the principal is paid down on that site are buildings unencumbered my understanding and I look to Cheryl is the answer is yes the way we structured the co PS is they phase the first building is I believe the park central building which I think rolls off and this year or next year if I remember right so they are so as we pay down the principal those buildings the COP on that building releases thank you I just wanted I think you said this last time but I don't remember what the cost is to the new britain and parque central building and whether or not that's part of the cost of this do you construct and demolish them yeah Michelle do you remember it is part of the three to four million dollars a year it was part of the it's not part of the 59 million for the pavilion renovation but in the costs

[117:01] of the entire project we included the deconstruction of those two buildings and and how much were those mission it was like two million dollars yeah beasts or both both yes thanks thank you okay so and if in all of the stuff that the county's thing which involves potentially affordable housing on yet another site I don't know how you begin to weigh the that but that that's also kind of interesting and is that also a discussion that happens in June yeah actually that was the last thing I was going to bring up was related to the letter we received from the county and the feedback we had heard from council the last time we checked in on Alpine balsam was to bring forward options related to the county so that will come on June 4th if council has any specific questions related to the letter

[118:01] from the county that you would like addressed on June 4th it'd be great to hear them tonight but that is the discussion that we were planning to have on in June well I guess the question I have for the county you can ask the mist or maybe they're watching right now um is is what are they willing to pay and how much housing does that displace in other words I they mentioned two acres and so how does that two acres fit into this 18 to 32 million dollars in proceeds that we feel we can get from the land otherwise who weren't if they weren't a fire are they willing to pay market rate I get the fact that there's there's 17 acres up that iris and Broadway that they're dangling in front of us but that may be available anyway so I want to take that off the table and so what are they willing to pay and and then you guys can do the analysis of if county offices go in those tio2 acres what how much affordable housing are we losing by virtue of taking those two

[119:00] acres out of the equation can I ask a question though why do you think that if they don't build their county facility here they have to build it up I believe maybe I'm wrong I believe they're gonna they've decided to have two acres of land someplace and they have 17 acres land so the they can buy 2 acres of land and vacate 17 or they can buy two other acres of land someplace else in town vacate their seventeen or they could just shrink their land the two acres they only need two acres and they've got seventeen so they've got 15 X excess acres so I don't want us to rush into a decision to sell them two acres we can get seventeen because I think we're gonna get somebody's gonna get 15 to 17 acres up there to develop into affordable housing to makes use no matter what do you mind him just I think the the the intensity levels that they'd be looking at Alpine balsam would be higher then you would put at iris and Broadway so I think the I think

[120:03] I don't think it's quite a two-acre to to a core kind of kind of thing and but there's also I I want to keep investing in the possibility partnership with the county but absolutely do that analysis but I would want to keep the the thoughts of how could we collaborate on housing at that iris and Broadway say in the mix because I definitely want to do that but I mean this is not cheap land I mean we bought it for five million an acre and we're talking about selling for five million making her and if I were the county I'd be asking myself if I need two acres his den says they want to make it is this the land I want to be buying there's probably land in in East Boulder and other places there's a heck of a lot cheaper than five million bucks an acre yeah for sure I know they're synergies to for them with mental health partners that kind of clout but anyway let's keep it on the table and keep analyzing which is somebody from the county here it looks like maybe like to hear from okay won't you come on it yep yes I'm from the county James Boulder

[121:01] Boulder County Building Services you're right the county is very interested in participating with you and they'll Pine balsam site we've done a facility's master plan in the last couple of years and part of that we recognize that we really wanted to consolidate our services and so from that viewpoint the Alpine balsam site is much more attractive to us than developing the 17.7 acres and IRAs in Broadway like you guys have discussed about buildings nearing the end of their useful life our buildings on the North Broadway and iris campus are near the end of their useful life and so we would be looking at some kind of way of dealing with those services somewhere else and with our facilities master plan it is the the number one site for us is the Alpine balsam site and I think it would be reasonable to suggest that a market rate would be something that the county would be interested in but that's not my decision

[122:00] but it seems like that would be something that we would be working with the city on great I think we have some questions yeah okay so in the letter we got today he mentions 120,000 square feet and what we have kind of eyeballed is a hundred thousand square feet according to staff at the corner and so are you flexible to be able to work within the hundred thousand square feet and the other question I'll have is about the parking garage they get mentioned in there we do have a parking garage on site and is there some way that you could collaborate and use our garage to meet some or all of your parking requirements so the 120,000 square feet is really a fixed number for us and we looked at the same frame' community hub as our model for a consolidation of services and that again came through that whole facility's master plan effort and so we really

[123:02] can't negotiate that square footage that is based on the services that we need to accomplish and the consolidation of services in one building as far as parking goes we as you saw in the letter we're looking at some kind of a reduction probably more aggressive than 20% but we'd really have to do a real parking study to assess that but just my reaching out to our alternate transportation mode folks in transportation they are like you know we don't know what parking is gonna be like the needs in ten years we might not own cars in ten years like they were blowing my mind with some of the stuff they were saying and so that would have to be really considered I can tell you that our parking needs for our clients is something that we really want to annales you know do a real careful analysis of we feel like we are more willing to work

[124:04] with our employees having the site closer to the bus barn downtown is also something that's very attractive to that came apart by the facility's master plan and that works for our clients and our employees we all have ego passes yeah so the hundred and twenty thousand square feet I'm I'm gonna anticipate that staff could probably figure out how to deal with that and enlarge that section just a little bit the two acres is what was a little more difficult in a sense because so if there's a way that we can work to keep the two acres a little lower but could meet your 120 thousand square foot need and meet your parking needs I think you know we're not there yet and we're in the area planning process but I think that would be you know would it would fit with what we're trying to do as far as affordable housing as well so we're trying not to lose acreage that we don't have to so that we could accommodate both this hub

[125:01] idea of having city and county services available in the same place but also maximizing affordable housing so that's just to comment I'm happy here you say market rate and we can have a negotiation later on I'm just curious though as a county taxpayer why would you a market rate for these two acres here when you could develop two acres densely at iris and Broadway and why wouldn't you just carve out two acres for three acres or whatever you need to create 120,000 new square feet I get to fight the buildings are old and their economic useful life is gone as well and so forth so why would you you already loaned that land why wouldn't you just build there so facilities master plan work shopping and we had an executive advisory board and we weighed the pros and cons of everything owning land is very important to us and so that was why we were very attracted to that parcel of land 17.7 acres it seems great because we own the land but there's a number of problems with that site first of all we

[126:00] have active functions on that site we have five buildings with services in operation and so for us to consolidate those services we'd have to lease space and then that is not the best in public service because an all of those services will have to be in another space and it would be more decentralized than it is right now the function on that site is kind of decentralized five different buildings there the openings the doorways are in different locations so you have to kind of know where your your are on the map to know from how to get the public health over to Health and Human Services so from that standpoint from a functional standpoint it's kind of hard to develop that site there's four ball fields on it we would have to work on how those ball fields would be addressed with a community engagement process there's also flood mitigation in that site so it is a complicated site and I think the biggest problem from a

[127:01] development standpoint is how do we it's much easier for us could be to develop the yelping Balsam site because it is that consolidation of services we have county services downtown we have county services in the the old Kaiser Building and so that's meeting that goal and it's also putting it's closer to mass transit and so being able to develop that while the functions are still happening in Ireson Broadway is a good pathway forwards for us thanks for being is very helpful yeah and I think in your letter you mentioned a date that you need to know by it was coming up real quick right what was the date you're it's like the end of June maybe something like that my question is can we get a little more time to figure things I've been talking to Jean about that and we wanted to make sure that we're moving forward on this process and this whole discussion has been really great for us because we've been talking to our County

[128:00] Commissioners and saying this is important you know being close to mass transit it's important consolidation of services before is important and as an outcome we've actually identified that it's our highest priority site even though we own the 17.7 acres and the county is also interested in some kind of affordable housing on that side too so that's a shared value for both the city and the county and then you also talked about kind of the density about a hundred and twenty thousand square feet we couldn't develop it as dense on the Broadway and iris campus it's it's Rize residential around that and I think the height limit is 35 feet in this site we're still talking 55 feet as a height limit for our building the build is sixty right now and so the bigger area of acreage if we could get three acres we could get 120,000 square feet and have a three-story building like we do

[129:02] over in Longmont if we get 2 acres then it has to be four-story structure and so it the math kind of works that way great well and I would just have a request for you all and for our city staff as that as we continue to sit down and Sabol and keep having these discussions if we can flesh out a little bit more time looking at you what collaboration on housing and iris and Broadway might look like because I think if we're gonna collaborate with County I think it's very promising but I think a large part that would be like to Bob's point if we're getting less housing on Alpha and balsam how can we get even more through the collaboration and iris and Broadway request to everybody I'm just gonna jump in and say I guess another question I have and I'm sorry I didn't realize you were sitting there is one of the issues we were talking about before is if we decide to use the pavilion and we decide to put a fourth-story what do we get and one of

[130:02] the things that might be on the table is additional public space and it occurs to me that if that happens and if the county happens that we might want to look at if there's synergy around shared spaces in a hub situation I'll just throw that out there since I don't know if you guys have thought about that and that's down the road but it seems to me that it's the same public so one thing that we have found county facilities standpoint is that it's great to have this kind of consolidation of services because then we can have shared amenities the larger conference rooms are big if conference rooms are just notorious and county facilities they're always hooked up and then when we started those are the first things to be cannibalized for office space and so when we have a consolidation of services 120,000 square feet we can actually have those larger meeting rooms and those seem to be like amenities that could be

[131:02] shared resources to both the city in the county okay back to you so in the letter that we perceived today it also said something about selling the Irish and Broadway property in order to fund the purchase of the Alpine balsam property so I was kind of curious following up on Aaron's question about affordable housing how I mean if you're gonna sell it will you be selling it to a private developer or will you be selling it with covenants on it you know what what are you imagining as far as the sale of that property and if that indeed is gonna be part of what funds the purchase of Alpine balsam so yeah it would be contingent on some kind of a sale of our property to be able to develop with you because it's I valued parcel of land and

[132:02] this is more of a question I would say for Kurt to what is an affordable sale price to make affordable housing work on a parcel of land like that I know it's not market rate I think that if you just put it out for market rate it would you would get a high return on your in parcel of land and it's not my area of expertise but it is my understanding that you have to sell it at lower rate for it to pencil out for affordable housing I think that can be true it can also be from market rate if it's sold to a affordable housing provider and then they get both the tax credits and assistance from the city in order to make the numbers work so it's certainly something to work with Kurt on I think yeah so I thank you for the extension on June 30th obviously I guess we'll try to move as quickly as you want us to but we would obviously need more specifics now

[133:00] I I feel like we can but whenever we get to specifics and whenever you you know we start talking about numbers I would personally be interested in and what a lot land swap would look like I don't know if money changes hands one direction or the other but but if you guys were saying you'll need the 17 acres anymore and and and you won't really want to acres or three acres from us I'd be interested in in what that would look like and whether you think somebody needs to pay somebody as part of that transaction so I guess think creatively the other thing too you know those four ball fields you know the county is not it's not our mission to provide any active recreation and so it's kind of an anomaly for us to have four ball fields up there it's more of a city activity you know we do more parks and parks and open space okay okay what you think about here anything else I mean for the county no hey thanks so much thank you okay so the question can

[134:03] you put the questions up we need to answer let's bring this home okay okay I think we agreed to Oh thought we agreed to - yes okay have we okay well let's marry so I would like us to ask staff to come back with a phase plan that considers maximizing affordable housing looks at the fiscal responsibility that we have with the site and also takes advantage of the flood mitigation that's already happening so those would be the three things that I would want in the phased approach can I ask a clarifying question yes when you say maximizes affordable housing how does that mean NIC's is a city county hub or on the

[135:03] additional acreage maximize the affordability of the housing that make sense I mean it might mix the county but I just wanted to know what you weren't yeah yeah no I I guess it would imply that it might mix it yes so so I would just say that if we're going to think about maximising affordable housing we have to think both the Irish and Broadway site and the Malcolm balsam site and so to the extent that there is potential creative transaction that would get the county facilities located there in the hub but also facilitate a bunch more affordable housing over Irish and Broadway hand and what's left on the remainder of the Alpine balsam site I think we should look at it as a whole if

[136:00] we can and so I do like the phased approach as a option for us to look at you know and so other options to look at might include you know selling everything it wants if we can do a transaction with the county and the transaction with an affordable housing provider to be the master developer and they figure out the mix of affordable and market because that's what they're good at then I could see selling it at once you know the western portions at once to an affordable housing provider and letting them figure out a what can be maximized here and potentially be how can they work with the iris and broadway site people tracking with that is that mostly nodding yeah yeah okay yeah I'll agree with that with what Mary said and then as amended and added on to by Sam just I'll just say kind of staff you you you talked me into the option a how many think I think it's looking like it can work out which I have not been convinced

[137:00] of up until this evening so thank you for all that information so I think taking those next steps to flush out the area plan makes sense the thing that I think is really important is as part of that area plan is to look at the scenarios that suited to Mary's point that were we're maximizing affordable housing what does that look like so you know when we put together our aerial plan you know what are the different options and how much affordability do they get because like Xan I want to see that 50% level if at all possible if not more if we could make it happen but with the caveat that look at the both of the pair of both sites because I'm willing to work with the county here if we can get even more housing somewhere else but it's just that it's so important on the the scenarios in the next step and the finances and how much affordability we can get for how much City subsidy remember so if we more move forward and do all of this well you know obviously come back to us but will this then go

[138:00] out to the community and community engagement in terms of options that you guys come up with yes so that'll be the next step on June 4th we're gonna bring those options to Council with really the key question of are these ready for all of these options or which of these options are ready for public review so it's a check in with Planning Board and council on that then through this summer we'll be doing that community engagement on those final set of options okay and so this is kind of I guess negate the previous options that you guys had come to us with I don't you know with the different number of units and where the buildings were placed is this kind of starting over again we've been in a narrowing process so we started with a very wide range of options the Vision Plan was was kind of a lot of potential uses on the site we've then been narrowing and so now I think we've got a

[139:00] mix of city services and maybe county services and housing as kind of our down to kind of three main uses and so we're gonna bring that set of options so I think it isn't about I think we're building upon those previous options and narrowing great thank you the one thing the one thing I'm still not sold on is the pavilion building I think we have three options there we spend 58 million dollars to get ninety three thousand square feet maybe with or without the floor but that's just kind of one option right there's a lot of money per square foot the second option is to build a seventy five to ninety three thousand square foot building someplace else I'd like to know what that would cost and then the third is to the lease option right which you guys have already laid out but it'd be nice to compare that lease option to the building we have there and a building to be built I mean if this building does so as well maybe the kind of you buy it for us for fifty eight million dollars I get

[140:00] you almost 120,000 right there I suspect they won't because I subtract the vacant build out under twenty thousand square foot building for less than fifty eight million dollars and so if they can do it I suspect we can too so let's really crunch those numbers and I don't care when you bring that back but just know that I'm not sold on on maintaining the pavilion building that 700 bucks Baker if you can make that not 700 ollars Nagar I'll do you have a sense of how much of that just off the top of your head is the street improvements and all the other site stuff I mean because I think that it is skewing this conversation and I'm just kind of back of the envelope what are we talking about yeah not specifically the street improvements but in the range of projects that we've worked on where we look at the construction cost and the construction budget as opposed to the whole budget with all of the equipment and furniture and the soft cost it's almost half the construction budget

[141:00] portion of it versus the entire all-in it's it's a little bit more than half but that's what we typically find working on a number of other projects in the city that when you put the all in there you nearly double that price but it's just I think it ever made this point earlier take the furniture out because we have furniture no matter where we are wonder all three scenarios lease build someplace else to use is gonna be the same furniture right there soft costs on building in renovating versus lease and I get that so you should factor that and break it out the factor it in but take out anything that's common across all three so we can really do apples to apples comparisons and we can provide that and in comparison to other kinds of projects for sure yeah but how we arrived at those numbers Sydney so I agree with parts of what everyone has said with the phased housing with what the caveat that sam says of working with the county I think there's some real opportunities there I think Bob brought up some really important points about cost and also

[142:00] looking what it may be like as the city moves east which it has been doing steadily to locate that somewhere else where that where the costs may not be so great for city consolidation of staff so but it looks good and I'm looking forward to seeing what the numbers are when we come back I guess one other I totally agree with what's being said here and I think when you breakout costs it'll be much easier of us to get get over our sticker price or sticker shock and actually compare the apples to the apples I also I guess and I don't think there's a number that's attached to this but I think the reason why I keep coming back to a hub is because I think there's an added public benefit to that versus having to go out to Walgreens Circle or what is the place where Green Energy Center I don't always think you know to

[143:03] try to find city staff I mean there's idiom and I don't know that you can quantify that but I do think that when we try to compare things that we need to to put well what are we getting for it and so some of those like that and we're also giving some stuff up so we need to be clear about both sides of the equation but I just think that there are some things like that we're going to make improvements on getting services to the people especially around human service stuff which i think is a great need for us to deliver better so our make it easier for people to get their services so I guess I'll just throw that in I don't know how you quantify it but it's a reason to try to pull this off in addition to the I already said it before I think the expectations of percentage of affordability of whatever gets built is is going to be important so that I'm

[144:04] very much in favor going above and beyond to get these together and also to keep the city functions like planning and development services central and where people know that they can get to them and it's close to other municipal services and county services so I see a lot of value in that it's worth a little bit of extra money if it's spread out over fifty or a hundred years right and and then you know at least costs as Bob said comparison billed versus buy is very helpful to look at and understand what the payback time is on one versus the other to the extent that the building cost less than fifty eight million dollars then when you put whatever the construction costs are and the land costs and then put that into comparison I think it will look a lot better than then forty years it is now or whatever so I want to keep at least studying it

[145:00] because I think there are knock-on benefits that come from doing that and from owning your own building okay so I think we've answered your questions good enough yep any other thoughts things that we want teed up for June 4th Mary just just to add to the list of things to consider for the phased approach and and I just wanted to clarify by making sure that we have a good fiscal outcome for the city and in that I mean kind of making sure that we spread out the expenses and the land sales to to influence the best outcome great and also to get the I know it's not as big as the holiday site but what happened up there and the way that was phased seems to be an outcome that most everybody likes so to the extent that it adds to

[146:02] the interest of what gets built there and whatnot I'll just throw that in there isn't a nice outcome speaking of that one thing I hear from the community is is McCabe city offices may be affordable housing in market-rate middle-income housing great great great great you it would be nice as we together this aerial plan if there was some sort of community amenity there I don't know what it is cultural center whatever more than just meeting rooms I mean I'm community amenity I know that for every square foot of a community amenity that's in square foot we can't give to a housing but it'd be nice to see what the list of options of a community amenity might be because we hear that from the community over and over and over again I mean we've spent 40 million on this thing housing is great offices maybe okay because we need them but what's in it for everybody in the community and it and not that we need to pin that down tonight it doesn't have to be a built a minute either because it could be like a plaza an event space a concert you know it could be outdoor in addition to the service

[147:03] provided okay is that good enough all right um thank you any less from you guys no thank you this was a very helpful we're gonna circle back talk about how much of this can we pull into the June 4th conversation recognizing that those materials are basically ready to go in about four days for us so some of it we'll be able to pull into the conversation on June 4th some of it will bring back at a later date but this conversation has been incredibly helpful thank you great well what you guys provided really shed some light tonight no and thank you yeah yeah I want to thank staff for pulling this together so quickly and and so well so very helpful and a big credit to the team and they've rallied over the last month to pull all of this work together so it was a great team effort Thanks everything and thank to the

[148:00] Attorney's Office for the confidential memo that was very helpful as well great all right you need thing on process here finishing early all right and unanimously all right great [Laughter] [Music] - parasol felt like that [Music]