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[9:09] [Music] view and have come to the conclusion that perhaps the applications that we received did not have the diversity of thought that we were hopeful to receive and so I'm gonna make a recommendation that we actually continue to leave the application period open until 5 p.m. next Monday so that would be January 29th and that I would consider the applications that I've already recommended for approval along with any new ones and then recommend appointments at that point in time the issue that so

[10:00] you will need to decide if you want to do that or actually just deal with the recommended recommendations this evening but if you do want me to extend the application period the important thing that we need to decide is should the first meeting of the group be extended so the first meeting of the group is scheduled for next Wednesday January 31st and that group is already set up if we extended the application period you would not have a chance to review my recommended appointments before January 31st the next time you'd have an opportunity to weigh in would be February 6th which means that the first meeting of the group would be delayed until at some point after February 6th so I am sort of seeking your direction on would you accept my recommendation that we extend the application period to January 29th and if so do you want to proceed with the January 31st date or

[11:00] well should I find another date so that you can review the recommendations on February 6th so so Jane thank you for this I was wondering in the in our materials I know that there's a desire for the report from the group from the working group to be completed by March 15th and then that report would be delivered to Council something like April 15 would it hurt the effort this delay by one week or so if the report was dude like one week later and it came to tell us all three weeks later I don't think so the the point of trying to get things done by March 15th was so that if there were going to be changes in the city code provisions regarding initiatives that those would be in effect by early

[12:00] May so I don't know the timing as well as perhaps my colleague David does what do you think I think I think that we could still work within that timeline and I guess worst case if we get pushed up against the election season that there's always the option of adopting any ordinances that were related to the next election by emergency and and we would have to make those decisions by late August early latest first week of September correct well I think that there are there are potentially two categories of ordinances that could come out of this the first of course being revisions to our election code that would be one the other would be changes to our Charter and if their Charter changes then those would just get kicked in to our normal you know into the Charter Committee the Charter Committee making a recommendation our study session in May on what goes on the

[13:00] ballot or what you want to consider and then into the ballot season over the summer thank you and just a follow up to that David that was helpful um with with respect to those that are ordinance changes it appeared from Jane's memo that there's really two groups of things those are some more time sensitive relating to referendums and initiatives which would be helpful for us to decide on by March April timeframe because typically those are submitted in the June July timeframe versus those that relate to campaign finance that probably don't need to be bottom done until the summertime that's correct okay so I have a thought um one is what if you just held it open till the end of the week yeah and and then proceeded if you pick people on Monday will they have time to get to the meeting by Wednesday yeah I don't know so that might be one thought is closed at Friday and I don't know if that not that you should work that not

[14:00] that you should work over the weekend but anyhow just a thought and I guess for my purposes what I just want to see is a diverse group of people that have something to offer on this topic that are reasonably collaborative and I trust you to choose that and I don't need to see the list again I agree with woods Anderson I do as well the thoughts okay I agree as well okay it seems like a consensus to me so I will extend it to 5:00 p.m. this Friday and I'm going to expect that there won't be a lot of new applications you know maybe five or six so I'll have plenty of time to review them and make a decision that evening so I'll send I'll send that out either

[15:00] Friday night or Saturday morning so the people will have an opportunity I had already talked with our communications department that this could be coming so we'll be ready to issue a press release tomorrow morning and social media as well so I think that we can make this happen and I appreciate that and your confidence thank you oh just so you know I I think I said this before but just to be clear I'm going to write to all of the people that were recommended for appointment to let them know that it's been delayed until the end of the week so that they're aware of that okay your letter last money was not final right and just so you know the letter that I sent them on Monday said that it was all contingent upon this meeting and and council approval of the recommendation so we'll just let them know that it's been delayed for a few days excellent great thank you

[16:02] okay yeah so the next is the boulder shelter management plan and sheltering policies and this is a follow-up to our discussion in a couple of weeks ago and January 4th as well as conversations with regards to the boulder shelter management plan which we really didn't talk about on January 4th we had talked about in December and so Karen Ron has been listening and answering questions you have a memo in your packet and she's ready to make that presentation right now Karen thank you so I'm going to go through just some of the highlights that are in the memo because there was a lot of information in the memo in response to all of the questions that council had from January 5th and then also some follow-up questions and we probably have a little more specific information in particular for Lisa in response to her questions also so just to give you an update on where the shelter management

[17:00] plan update and approval is let's see if we can do this okay okay you can't see it all you can see it over there okay so that's not going to change on the main screen there so I think the only screen that's changing is the one up there on the left is that one not yes that's the only one there we go okay okay so just to quickly recap the shelter management plan process on December 5th council provided some specific direction regarding new language for the shelter management plan revisions these two items were provided to the shelter staff and board for

[18:00] consideration one in particular was related to s VPS at the shelter and making sure that that language was consistent with council direction another thing that council wanted us to take a look at was including in the management plan conflict resolution policies we did not include that in the shelter management plan revisions however those processes will be included in the city contracting process in the city contract the reason for that is because there's a number of conflict resolution nuances and policies and procedures that if they were in the management plan would require the shelter to come back with all of those changes for city manager of consideration and review so we felt that from our staff perspective that incorporating the requirements for conflict resolution which we'll talk a little bit about later that we could include that in the city contracting

[19:01] process with the shelter so based on the feedback the shelter's submitted a revised management plan on January 19 the revision was consistent regarding SPPs with council direction and the planning review team completed their review and submitted to the city manager for decision on January 22nd so the specific language that the shelter submitted for their management plan approval you can see here the shelter will not serve sexually violent predators who are on parole and the shelter will discontinue services to all s VP's if an alternative sheltering option for this population becomes available in Boulder County through attrition the shelter will reduce its SVP population to a maximum of one person currently there are four s VPS at

[20:00] the shelter and when this management plan goes into effect that would mean three of those would need to be evicted from the shelter sure so so but going from four to one yes that's not necessarily attrition I mean you would think they would rotate out so I'm just kind of curious right so as the residents those four current residents leave the shelter that space is not replaced not available for an SVP but these but the ones that are there will continue on as long as they're there and so they're they're rehoused or leave voluntarily or find housing elsewhere and one last question so let's say those guys leave you have left one so what is the shelter supposed to do when they get another SVP say no you can't come here

[21:02] yes that's what the policy states okay and so I assume in that case they would maybe refer them to severe welter weather shelter or some other venue yes they could go to severe weather shelter that would be available to them however if they violate behavioral rules or program rules particularly related to the safety of themselves or other clients or staff they could be suspended from severe weather shelters thank you did you say something about they would need to be evicted right away but that but that's not the case we're attrition means that they can stay until their term is that's correct without that language when the management plan goes into effect they would be evicted from the show just heard you but with the language proposed yes okay that's great

[22:01] thank you so what programs are the SVP is in now because my understanding is housing focus shelter is what the majority of the beds are supposed to be at the shelter is that correct that's that's correct that's what the majority beds are so then two questions one is are the SVP s in housing focused shelter and did they get there through coordinated entry so I'm gonna have that's a detail question I don't know I'm gonna have Greg who's the executive director of read harms come up and answer that question for us so one of the four has left so we're down to three one of those s VP's is really only using morning services right now so we have two people who are in in reserved bed program so is that housing focused shelter it is and did they come in through coordinated entry they did okay

[23:01] and then another question is we saw that the during severe weather the bed count that the shelter's about 150 people occupying beds give or take hundred forty 150 and then there was a mention of a lottery system so can you explain to me the distribution of housing focused shelter beds versus severe weather shelter at the boulder shelter for the homeless and how that works yes so we're considering everything at the shelter housing focused shelter the severe weather shelter is at a separate location run run by the bridge house organization so two two separate programs are our numbers at the shelter have bounced around from the 130s to 160 the lottery that you mentioned is if we hit 160 if we have more people asking

[24:00] for housing focused shelter than we have room we run a lottery to see who gets in we've only had to do that once this year so one time we we were over capacity and had to use the lottery system so those 140 to 160 are all housing focus shelter correct got it and most of those people staying for a long time 90 days what's because I know we've had a lot of exits so what's the profile of the shelter so between a hundred and a hundred and twenty folks are in our reserve bed program and the rest of the people who are coming are on what we call standby so they're kind of on a night to night basis some some people have been in reserve beds since October some are just joining it it's kind of its kind of fluid so people move in and out on a daily basis what are reserve beds and what are two other beds so when you when you go

[25:02] through coordinated entry do you get referred to housing focus shelter that's at the shelter you have the option when you come to the shelter you can either go on a standby basis which means you just show up and and if there's space you get a you get a bed or you can sign up for a reserve bed which is a guaranteed bed every night so it's it's up to the client to choose what what path they want to take so what are the differences between those two why would somebody choose to stand by bed over a reserved bed a reserved bed requires that you be there every night and requires that you do a chore so there's a few obligations there some people don't want to sign up to be at the shelter every night they just want to use it as they need it so we we have that option so if you have a reserved that can you stay there arbitrarily long and leaving commas you choose versus a standby bed do you have to

[26:00] 00 in the morning or 7:00 in the morning right now everyone leaves at 8:00 in the morning so even has in focus shelters still 00 in the morning yes so there's no vocational training or programs that are intended for day services for people who are read we're still under the old management plan so we we don't have the ability to do any day services yet so that's what so if we approve this will you begin doing day services say it gets approved next week 00 in the morning if they're and housing focus shelter it's okay okay so this is a little further down the presentation but yes when the management plan is approved then clients would be eligible to stay at the shelter one of the things we're working through right now is the funding for Day Services because when we implemented the system and we're looking at standing up the navigation Center plus program Bay

[27:00] year-round sheltering program based adding case management housing focused shelter case management to the shelter we've been looking at all of these costs we will have to add funding for the day services and we're working on that right now and what the existing source source of funding that we have to be able to implement that when the management plan is approved so why don't we go back to presentation and you'll be here right yeah one question in that sure it could great could you explain a little more about the lottery system how does that work is it first come first serve you give preferences to people who are disabled senior how does that work no so the lottery system is those folks who have not signed up for reserve bed so it's people who are only on standby who go to the lottery

[28:00] and we run the lottery if we think we're gonna be full and it's just that it's a lottery so you just pick a number or pick any you pick a number okay and as I just mentioned we are now looking at how to fund the additional day services the year-round services and program based our housing focused shelter are funded the shelter is going to be adding a case manager to really focus on housing so we do have a funding gap for the day services portion which we think will be able to come up with a plan for very soon so suspension policy and procedures was another area that council was very interested in so we talked with

[29:01] the shelter and bridge house about their suspension policies all as Gregg said all of the suspensions prior to October 1st have expired with the exception of safety related suspensions and the shelter currently has 12 safety related suspensions Bridge house has one suspended individuals can go to severe weather sheltering once they get to severe weather sheltering they would have to comply with rules and behavioral policies there as well so another area that council was interested in was transportation options particularly for people who are under suspension and how would they get to severe weather sheltering on those days that they needed to access shelter so we've been working with the shelter Umbridge house through coordinated entry to make sure that the information that's where severe weather sheltering is is very robustly put out into the community so people know that and we're also

[30:00] looking at transportation options either a cab to get to severe weather sheltering if that's someone's only option or bus passes but we will be funding some option for that group of clients who have no other option except severe weather sheltering so that they can get there you're also interested in an ombudsman Bubbe's person role or our community mediation services serving in some conflict resolution capacity particularly for the shelter so currently the our community mediation program does work with the shelter in resolving post grievance issues so if a client who's been through the grievance process at the shelter would like to go through mediation to resolve those conflicts they are currently using mediation and we've had a couple of

[31:01] clients over the last couple of years that have used that service to resolve conflicts with the shelter so those referrals are currently being made to CMS mediation is also at a vixen Court they work with clients who are being evicted or about to be evicted either to extend their eviction time so they have more time to find alternative housing things like preventing an eviction to show up on their credit report and to connect clients with support services they also work with our our public housing agencies across in Boulder and Boulder County to prevent evictions so some additional services that we've been exploring with mediation and the shelter and the courts would be providing earlier information and involvement in addiction court process to prevent severe some way of resolving

[32:00] conflicts which would actually prevent an eviction mediation is also looking at youth facing housing and stability mediation with parents for younger people training for homeless in this agency staff and conflict resolution so this has been an area that there's been some interest expressed in to help staff resolve conflicts with clients before it escalates to a suspension this would be under suspension prevention assistance also reentry assistance for suspended clients so working with clients who are no longer suspended and then how can they get back into services and increase their likelihood of success and not being evicted or suspended again from the shelter or or from bridge house or another service they're also looking at expansion of the services that are we're on the previous slide that are already

[33:00] being provided so these are the kinds of things in terms of conflict resolution and support for clients that are being considered care yes who which court serves the eviction process so I'm gonna have clay come up so clay Fung is our community mediation services manager and I think some of the things that they are doing and considering helpful for him to explain yes so a fiction Court is handled in the 20th district court so it's County Court in terms of kind of a logistical matter they're typically held every Friday morning the hearings and it can be about twenty to forty cases can be heard at any given time you know you have a lot of cases I would say we've just had a bunch sort of built up over the holidays but I'd say you'll have twenty cases on the docket which is generally generated the evening before

[34:01] so some of those cases get resolved so they have a lot of no-shows unfortunately and a lot of instance tenants don't show up so a lot of those will get default judgments and you might be looking at you know maybe four or five where you have both parties present and unfortunately tenants just sort of get the judgment against them but I'd say twenty is a good average and you say it's it's County Court yes fictions are Pendleton County Court because they're they're governed by state law and not municipal law and one just curious so those hearings are to actually mediate there yes I work in the courtroom well we took it outside of the court but we we do they're very much on the fly there's time pressure and what we're really trying to do is to see if something can be accomplished either a payment plan to sort of prevent the eviction from going through or in summonses just simply to reduce some of

[35:00] the hardship of the eviction can we have a little more time to get somebody out but it's very quick very on the fly and so do people contact you then or do you intervene do you read the court docket and get names well the judges are our partners so typically what will happen is the judge will first take role essentially to see if there are cases where both parties are present and then the judge will if there hasn't been some sort of agreement made because in some cases the attorneys will sort of self mediate and see if they can come with something but in typical examples where you have what's called the pro se parties where they're not represented by attorneys what a judge will do is we'll refer them say we have some mediators in the back room before we move forward I'd like you to speak with them and see if something can be worked out thank you yep yeah so I wanted to address two things here one was appeals to the mediation after whom a service provider has provided some

[36:00] kind of suspension of services to a client and then the others are we introduced so have you had many occasions in the last couple of years to work with clients of homeless service providers who have been suspended we've had a few I mean I wouldn't say it's a great number but you know we've had a handful a handful okay and how does that process go right now typically they have actually there's two ways but a lot of them have actually come through as potential discrimination complaints to the office of Human Rights and typically they've you know few people feel that they've been excluded for discriminatory reasons and what we would do in that instance is we would you know do intakes essentially both with the client and the agency that they're dealing with and then we would run them through sort of a table mediated process with the hope of coming up with some sort of written agreement that would create clear expectations for each party which may or may not include a path to re-entry or it may also be a path to address a grievance that a client may have that's not necessarily

[37:01] related to re-entry but that a client may have with that agency so what if it's not a discriminatory situation in other words it's just a simple dispute of facts yeah well in some instances you know there may not be as much as we can sort of do with that if there's like a you know an exact violation of policy and the violation of policy is a violation of policy and if there's a safety issue there's a legitimate safety issue we don't want to override that but oftentimes what mediation can do is kind of around the margins maybe explore a path for both the client and the agency to work together in the future for example I'm thinking of one case and you know if financially peace that I can't get into detail but it was where granted there was the suspension would still stand for a while but then there was a clearer path for the client to re-enter than there might have been absent mediated conversation I think it's one of the

[38:00] concerns here generally is when people want to make an appeal the principal would be you don't have the same agency that issued the suspension here the appeal because there could be conflict of interest there so what are your thoughts on the possibility of being creating some kind of Appeals process because right now the grievance process some suspension occurs and then the grievance process goes within the same organization and then perhaps they move on to the mediation services to mitigate the judgment is there any way that you can see of intervening as part of the Appeals of grievance process well if I understand the question correctly I think it's really almost are we willing to take on more of a quasi-judicial role and maybe having more decision-making power than what we might have is sort of a mediator which it's really up to the parties to come up with that and I think

[39:00] you know there would need to be some sort of structural and philosophical changes you know I think there's specific expectations like if you're looking at an Ombuds function where a person is a decision ultimately may be binding or what they call a mediation arbitration model where we try to mediate but if we can't do it then that impasse needs to be broken by the person making the actual decision currently we don't have people that are qualified that within the team and those qualifications can be received through training and the like but right now I don't think we have that capability given just qualifications of our staff so if it were the will of counsel that that'd be something that we explored do you think it's a possibility I mean how extensive would it be to acquire that capability actually some of those trainings aren't terribly difficult I mean you know if they're not like getting a master's degree or anything like that you know they're relatively brief I think some can be done in a week but I think it's important that if one were to undertake such a thing that the

[40:00] proper credentials you know be part of it all and you know I think it is doable but we also the other question that I would just put out there is a you know fundamentally of the mediation service has acted as a neutral since the 80s and this is a pretty significant change in the mission and scope of what the mediation service does and I think I haven't fully thought out you know what are the implications for that what are some of the concerns that that may bring because it really is changing that role not what you say it's not doable but I just want to make sure we look at what potential downsides might be to that you know is there a reluctance for people to bring stuff to us if there's a feeling that we're also you know we may pass judgment on them later on I mean I don't know so those are the only I would put those out as cautions I wouldn't say those are deal-breakers but I think there's just a few things we need to be aware of sure I mean in addition to that if the agencies wouldn't be willing to do this we're talking about but that was just curious from your standpoint and so thank you for the answers absolutely

[41:02] thank you if we expand its severe weather sheltering to additional days what would that those costs look like there was also a question about what what the how we went about developing those options that's in the packet I'm not going to spend much detail about that so that we can we can get to a little bit more about if if severe weather sheltering days were expanded what would the costs and the upsides and downsides would that be so just to recap a little bit in the development of the strategy and the working group recommendations there was a historic trend of increasing costs and resources going for adult emergency

[42:00] services without an exit path to programs and services or or housing the working group recommendations and the homelessness strategy identified about 20 additional days besides the 210 beds that were available in the new system for severe weather sheltering so the intent of that was to provide some additional sheltering during severe weather for those clients who were not in shelter programs but were at risk on the streets so that they did have a place that they could go so so just a little recap so in September of 2017 council requested staff to explore more than these twenty days we did the research on the hazards to human health the range of conditions and variables were very broad to be practical for establishing really specific thresholds for severe weather sheltering we've

[43:00] talked about this before at other meetings we wanted to include be sure that we included all the National Weather Service watches and warnings in addition to whatever the temperature or condition thresholds were and we did this we researched also weather patterns in Boulder County for the last three years so in considering this balance of adding additional severe weather shelter beds with what the goal of the strategy is there was definitely a desire to avoid developing a parallel system sheltering which is what we used to have but ensure that there was a safety net for those people who are at risk on the street we also looked the assessment of other communities criteria which was pretty broad and there was a number of different criteria and also discovered there was no standard definition of what

[44:00] severe weather is so council approved the standards that we had on October 24th of last year and the standards that you see up there are the ones that council approved and that's an estimated 60 to 80 annual days we contracted with bridge house for this service for up to $100,000 a year to to provide that severe weather sheltering so council also asked for information about if we went to the boat old Bohol criteria for sheltering which you see that criteria up there that would expand sheltering to about 140 to 150 nights and the estimated cost for that would be about a hundred and eighty thousand plus potential additional cost which we don't know at this time for coordinated entry housing focused shelter or navigation

[45:00] services and this is a reference to right now folks who come to severe weather sheltering they are encouraged and referred to coordinated entry following their stay at severe weather sheltering if we were significantly expanding this there may be many more people being referred to a coordinated entry or housing focused shelter program and so there may be some staffing implications there that we are unaware of right now so we also looked at standing severe weather sheltering to the entire sheltering season typical sheltering season which is October 1st May 1st which is about 212 days and that cost our cost estimates are two hundred and thirty two thousand dollars plus those additional potential costs if there's impacts on coordinated entry or housing focus shelter so I think I've

[46:07] already mentioned some of these concerns about that that we looked at and concerns that came up regarding expanding severe weather sheltering so it's increasing significant additional funding requests over time historically for services not connected to long term solutions so we would have to really guard against that it's the potential for creating a parallel sheltering system in severe weather shelter or additional sheltering every night during the season it may make it a little more difficult to meet our new system goals if those clients do not have service plans and exits to housing the strategy prioritizes new resources to exit homelessness to exit rather than expand emergency sheltering and it could also potentially expand

[47:03] options for people not connected to the community without any service entry conditions or criteria just those are all things that you've heard before and have been part of the considerations in the past and so this church just a recap of adult shelter utilization including severe weather shelter housing focus shelter and Bridge house path to home so you can see a peak peak two nights of peak capacity 235 on the 21st of December and 248 on the 26th of December so these two nights exceeded the and you will see there's another two there's a 220 up there these these nights and a 212 these exceeded that 210 capacity of the existing ongoing programs and those were severe weather shelter nights people could access

[48:00] severe weather shelter beds at those sites on those nights kind of interrupt you a quick question and at the bottom it says I'm the shortest of severe weather shelter utilization of 100 beds is that true every night I know that that the venues change from time to time is that an average or is that the usual capacity so if we need additional severe weather sheltering beds that's the usual capacity of 100 additional beds there we go below that are there any churches that are only 80 or 70 or something like that I think there probably are Isabelle could probably answer that question yeah sure so as a bill comes up we become nice to know what the minimum is in other words what is our minimum capacity on those nights that we have to be rotating through a church or synagogue that doesn't have hundred beds hi good evening I'm Isabel McDevitt with bridge house so we have an arrangement with the faith community until we can get into the site on 30th Street and every night

[49:01] of the week we're able to offer the standard 50 beds for path to home but some of those faith sites we can go up to an additional hundred so usually we would want to keep it to just a hundred but some spaces can do up to 150 I'm so on severe weather shelter nights where we have a space they can't go over the 50 or in some case it's at 60 we will open an additional site to account for severe weather shelter so some nights we're able to accommodate it for example Heart Hashem or Saint Andrew can accommodate you know well over 50 but a night atonement Lutheran we would offer an additional site right next door at harvest m to make sure we can have the capacity for severe weather shelter so wouldn't we just say that I'm through those backup arrangements you have that you always have 50 plus 100 beds available 150 between at the home and

[50:02] the severe weather or shelter we can yes would say the highest number that we've had combined past the home and severe weather shelter this season was 95 and that was on the 26 so we've been mindful of resources to make sure that we have that capacity but we haven't seen the need to have a full other hundred beds where we're really looking at the 50 beds until we need to but we have contingency plans to make sure that's available it's just good to complete the picture on December 26 when you use 96 of those beds the other 150 to people because we have two hundred forty eight people shelter the night we're at the boulder shelter for the homeless in North Boulder correct I believe so yes as we're rolling coordinated entry out have you like if this was January have you seen an increase and the severe weather bad usage or passed a home so I looked at our numbers today our average

[51:01] for severe weather shelter nights across the season has been 71 combined so 50 Pat the home plus 21 severe weather shelter folks and I believe last night we had 50 folks at our primary atonement location and then another 35 at saying excuse me starfish M so we're still not seeing you know much higher so how does the population in the severe weather shelter how is that changing night tonight is it the same people or are you getting a real mix up that's a that's a great question so what we're seeing is a combination of people who are brand new to the system and then we refer to coordinated entry we're seeing a combination of people who have been screened for housing focus shelter or

[52:00] path to home that are not currently engaging in program plans who are coming to severe weather shelter and then we make every effort to get them engaged in those program services and then we're seeing a portion of people who are informed of you know the additional resources who just choose not to come back so it's a it's a real combination we've provided city staff with a lot of detail on that that we could send to you it would be helpful thank you so Isabelle if we were to look at changing the temperature triggers and moving to something that was more like 65% of the nights in the sheltering season would that be something that if resources were provided that your chest could manage we would certainly look into it that would have to be a board decision of ours you know we are well-equipped to provide these services

[53:00] that's why we you know submitted to do so I think you know that would be something we would strongly consider do you want to tell us anything about your thoughts on the weather triggers and and you know because we're trying to think of a balance between a parallel sheltering system but also making sure that people are safe so do you have any thoughts on that absolutely I mean I think it is tough we have changed the whole system and I think we're seeing some really really positive outcomes from the perspective of engaging folks in a much deeper program opportunity and really being able to position coordinated entry not as a punishment but as an opportunity to get more services whether that's through housing focus shelter or path to home but that doesn't mean that there's not a big culture shift particularly for folks who have been in our community who are pretty service resistant so I think it

[54:02] is a delicate balance I don't believe that there's risk of changing that culture by changing the temperature degrees by you know a fair amount I do still think that there's a reality that there are going to be folks who are going to still choose to be outside of the system because this is a very significant change to what they're used to so I think we have to work diligently on the housing exits and we to work diligently on making our programs attractive so that people actually take advantage of them and that we have the assets that were anticipated in the plan I mean the plan anticipates to 24/7 facilities neither one of those is up and running right now so the plan is not fully implemented and until it is I think we've got to keep our eye on the ball of what the plan is supposed to do which is to help people get housed so

[55:01] for this season because you know we're still in transition I think we should consider some different options but I still would say that the overall direction of focusing on housing is the right one can I push you a little further if you were gonna make recommendations to us this evening for this season of transition on severe weather shelter what would they be Wow that I you know my my board has some you know strong opinions about this I I would say that given what we're seeing as far as capacity we have capacity to do more around severe weather shelter I think that you know they're the 21 degree mark does feel like it is a little arbitrary

[56:00] when it's 22 degrees however I think we should not look at a complete every night of the season I think we could maybe look to our sister communities to see whether we could rise that temperature a little bit I'm sure city staff has done research on that but we absolutely have capacity within our current programs I mean we are not having to open faith community after faith community after faith community to accommodate the need as you saw in that chart we do have some additional capacity so yeah we have boho up here and I was wondering what would happen if we went to those criteria the boho criteria with 32 without precipitation and 38 degrees with person it's every night big right

[57:02] there's two different boho criteria there was the original boho criteria and then there was there was the boho every night criteria I think what's up for discussion is the original boho criteria which would raise the temperature to the 32 degree marks but I'm interested yeah I think if we did that we would be open more nights but I don't anticipate that service usage would be that different I still don't think we're gonna see a hundred more people show up I think it would the reality is is that the changes around the requirement of coordinated entry have already changed the culture in the community and I think you know a lot of folks are taking advantage of the new resources which is great and I think there's people who are service resistant who it's easier for them to and you know less confusing for them to just stay wherever they are and not come in for

[58:01] shelter under any circumstance even if they know about it and either even if it's night tonight because it's too hard to figure it out night tonight so temperature criteria probably won't change that for some folks but certainly for the people in limbo I think it would be helpful to have more options when we're just on that sort of fringe temperature thank you okay thank you that's very helpful sorry you're almost done do you have recommendations for those that are service resistant in this new plan what it's the second time this week that that I've heard that this is an issue and so what what are your thoughts there well anticipated in the plan was that you know again the goal is housing so we know in this community as evidenced by the homeless outreach team and the municipal court Navigator we've

[59:02] put resources into folks who we know don't walk through the doors of service providers you know they never have or if they have it's been in really sporadic ways yet they're very well known to the community so we are still working with the housing resources in the region through the one home coordinated entry system for permanent supportive housing to try to get those folks housed and they may never walk in the door of the shelter or bridge house but they are still on the housing priority list given their vulnerability and their length of time in the community so they're still known to us but they may not be using services day to day or night tonight and so the reasons which the service resistant would be addressed in

[60:00] permanent supportive housing is that kind of what I hear you saying yes I mean even in supportive housing housing first as a model was developed for folks to basically leapfrog the need of having to be in a shelter it right into housing it it's a it's a great solution for someone who maybe you know has so much trauma that they can't be in a shelter environment with a lot of people or their you know high-level needs around mental health and again being with a lot of people is tough or you know addictions you know kind of preclude them from being part of a community dynamic so it's a great option I will say that it's it's an option for a small percentage of the population I'm just given you know the criteria you have to meet to be eligible for those services but it's certainly a great a great resource for folks who are living on our streets right now and does the permanent supportive housing option take

[61:03] care of most of the service resistant or is it a smaller I'm trying to get an idea of that addresses in that category well it's it's it's a combination of first we need the resource so it's it's you know it's it's a scarce resource but when someone is identifying identified as being eligible for a housing first unit whether that's through you know the muni court navigator or another service provider then there's quite a bit of work to do around you know making sure that they have identification and all the things you would need for a landlord so the concept behind putting folks into the housing focus shelter program if they're willing to do that and to have an environment where they feel comfortable and can can be while that process happens is to try to get more people off the street because that takes

[62:01] a while there's a bureaucratic process about housing no matter how low barrier the housing might be for the individual so it can work but it takes a lot of resources to even get someone ready to be you know approved by landlord well so we're gonna let you finish you grab your mic okay and you also want a little bit of a recap on an update on system results to date and they are very encouraging so through December there's been 87 exits countywide into housing 74 from the city of Boulder 14 to housing from housing focused shelter 13 to housing from path to home navigation 10

[63:00] went into residential programs ployment or substance abuse to clients reconciled with family or friends in Boulder and 35 were unified with support systems outside of Boulder County yep can you explain the residential program just old more I think Wendy can explain that I'm not familiar with which residential programs that good evening Wendy Schwartz homeless programs manager in these cases there were ten that went to the bridge house ready to work program so that's the employment program and one that went into residential substance abuse treatment thanks okay that's the

[64:00] end of our presentation so additional questions lots of questions but the goal for this evening is we want to tell everybody so the goal for the evening was just an update on what council had information that council had requested in can you before we get to questions the next steps in terms of city managers as the authority not this council about the shelter plan and just kind of where we're at and then so the city manager has I believe the disposition from the planning staff and she'll be making a decision after tonight so basically whatever we want to say to the city manager about her pending decision so this plan can go forward and actually be implemented okay and we're over our time so with that in mind questions that are pertinent so I had put out a little questions today yes I don't need them answered tonight in night of time but if I could get those answered on hotline that would be very helpful yes we'd be happy to do that

[65:01] Darren why do I have additional questions this one winter when we're done I have a few comments can we go ahead with comments everyone okay shoot great well I'd like to thank the shelter for being responsive to some of the feedback that we've given over the last few months and Karen thank you also for being responsive to the concerns and issues that we've raised recently and so it seems like we're really heading in the right direction here I just wanted to zero in on a couple things one of them is the the mediation question so clay had some great answers about that programs working right now which I appreciated but it sounded like it's not quite clear how we might get that function that I think we were interested in that Sam was zeroing in on about you know if there's an appeals process that the shelter for penalty how there could be someone to help at least facilitate you know that being a an advocate or something like that so I think that

[66:00] seems like it needs a little more work it seems like possibly the mediation services could provide that but it's not a slam dunk so it's now because it is voluntary right now and I think as clay suggested we could do a little more work on looking at arbitration which is more of a quasi judicial function and I think you know that would have to be explored before we would could do something like that and then I think we could talk with the shelter a little bit more about how we might be able to be part of the appeals process because this these are these are policies of the shelter board and the shelter operation we don't want to step into their process that they've established before they've had an opportunity to run that process but we do hear you that we don't want to get to the end of that process without having some type of Appeals or conflict resolution part of that my perspective

[67:00] it's less about stepping into what they're doing and more about if that doesn't work out that we you know have some way of providing several requires presses of an additional level that's required I'm sorry that's required in the appeals process which part she's asking are you do you want it required well I would say that the option is always available yes and then rather than it's a required step and it currently is available that's not what I was hearing from yes so what I'm talking about is that someone who felt like they'd gone through the whole process with the shelter but they felt like the outcome was not fair to them that they would have people that they come to at the city or some other third party who could say let us help mediate that buuuut with the shelter over there and we have done that yes but it's voluntary mm-hmm voluntary on the part of the voluntary but who I'm the part of the

[68:00] client and the shelter well I so I so the appliance could come and use our community mediation services if they didn't like the outcome of the grievance process but they wouldn't be required to use it you know it would be voluntary for them to come I think in Gregg you can add to this every time a client has come the shelter has participated in that process voluntarily I guess I heard clay talk about more of an arbitration function yes so which i think is a little closer to what we've been advocating yes and that would not necessarily be voluntary and and is an arbitration binding so that we actually yes so maybe either play can come back up or David can also weigh in because now we're getting into a quasi judicial process and typically arbitration when you get into that realm it's its

[69:01] contractual remedy so you usually define between parties what you're what you want to dispute and then how you want to dispute it so this is a little bit different in that you don't have a contract necessarily between the shelter and a client that we're involved in so it's a tricky path so David are you saying that arbitrary arbitration doesn't really apply in this case I think it's typically not done in this type of a situation so if you if we were to have you know so I'm kind of this is off the cuff here a little bit but if we were to do something it would probably be where we would have a funding agreement or some other arrangement with the shelter and as part of our funding arrangement we would contract to have some kind of process available so I

[70:01] would think that we would probably do it in a contract with the shelter and we could you know we could offer hearing officers of course you know it it's gonna be a contractual remedy so of course you need a willing buyer and a willing seller of those services okay so Sam wants in on this one too I just gonna say everybody wants it so we'll just go Sam Mary Cindy here pretty much right we're in is on this I feel like we need to have a pathway that's well-known for the clients of any service provider it's not just the shelter it could be bridge house or any other provider as well so that we are providing them with funding they're providing services to a community that we think is important that they be served in a certain way but it's also important that there be a pathway to resolution for grievances

[71:00] that isn't just moderated by the people who made the original decision and so I heard from clay mediation arbitration that sounds like the process that was being considered would start with an attempt to mediate to try and get both parties on board and then if that did not work then some kind of arbitration in which its quasi judicial and a third party in this case the city would make a decision about the merits of the cases they understood them I agree David it seems to me like you know a contract that goes along with funding would be a legitimate way to have that conversation with the service providers and we're providing them with a certain amount of funding and it also provides I think the whole community with the sense that there is a pathway it isn't just within these service organizations that the city's involved with trying to make sure that everyone gets treated fairly and so I guess I'm interested in where Erin was

[72:00] going with this which is how can we work together the city and the service providers to make the best system so that if somebody is not happy with the resolution not even saying ahead of time who fault it may be that there's a pathway to have that heard outside so I'd like to keep exploring it I don't know if it belongs in the management plan it sounds like the contract may be a better place you know and the annual funding yeah yeah I don't think the management plan is a land use document and this is really kind of I don't want to overstate it or understate it but it's almost like a human rights issue so I agree belongs in the contract not the management plan right so I think it's all for me I do want to come back to it's not on this subject but I want to come back to the temperature triggers before we leave this so we'll come back to those let's resolve this we're gonna pick up the pace little Mary it sounds like the answer my question was going to be about would it be included in the contract and in the upcoming contract if

[73:02] it could be included in the upcoming contract that was my question and it sounds like the answer is yes yes Cindy well I'm just wondering how it's going to play out it sounds to me that if there are two parties who are willing to mediate that and there isn't resolution that is there for the client it could be for the other party as well and if one enters these and and our mediator is doing the job dispassionately it seems that that kind of thing could be resolved at that level and if there is an appeal process contractually tied to this it seems and then it's a binding resolution if it's something it seems that we wouldn't want to force a party into something in terms of taking care of a client if it's an unwilling thing

[74:04] to do I mean I just don't quite see where this is heading in terms of getting into an arbitration situation and if it were to go that way why wouldn't it be in the somewhere within the municipal courts purview again which we would hope would be a dispassionate listener in terms of the mediation well so in terms of the municipal court that's the easy one so typically the Municipal Court is they're equipped to enforce municipal violations and the prosecution of misdemeanors and this is not really that it's not that this is more of a dispute resolution between two parties so that in and of itself is not a particularly good fit our Municipal Court also serves the role of being hearing officers for city administrative

[75:00] actions so a lot of we do some enforcement through administrative actions and and our court provides services through there that's something that could be considered it could also be somebody you know we could also figure out some other hearing officer to hear these types of claims and disputes so that the second part of your question was I was just thinking I didn't know if the court had a mediation service or not I was thinking if there was a mediation service appended to the snow and getting taking it out of the City Council deciding sure this kind of thing typically mediation it's either done by the parties without the benefit of somebody helping them it's with attorneys or through something like community mediation services and a lot of times if there's a Reza you know frankly a lot of our lawsuits settled through a mediation process you know they don't take a lot of things to trial and I think that you know mediation

[76:00] services are often quite beneficial from that regard but then if you have an unsatisfactory result is from mediation you know I think that what what I believe Sam is describing is you'd have your ticket punched complete mediation and then once you did that that would give you the right to ask for a hearing officer and then have it have it heard I think another part of your question this may be more appropriate for Karen was just about providing services to people who have problems with the organization and frankly I think that's something that as we look further into this we're just going to have to figure that out because I know that that we will have to figure out how to balance the interests of the one client who is making a complaint with those of the remaining people and the shelter to also be able to live in a safe environment that was basically what I

[77:00] was getting at yeah okay so did you what did you take away from that Karen so you would like us to consider some options for conflict resolution that is more structured and formal that would be a pathway a clear pathway for clients but they have a clear pathway for a resolution to their problem mostly I think one other thing that I heard from the question about how often has this happened is not very often a handful of times in the past few years I think this would be something that we would want to be really well understood by the clientele as well as the service organizations so just to make sure that they know I mean you've emphasized that it's voluntary which is great but for that to be something people can take up means they need to know about it and so that would be the other pieces making sure it's well understood

[78:00] whatever the pathway is okay yes we can bring that back to you thank you but not hold up this agreement okay temperature I was just gonna say that I think the original boho temperatures are something I'd be interested in us looking at to fund and to be the triggers for severe weather sheltering which triggers 38 degrees with precipitation 32 degrees without so it's not the every night not the every night it's the original severe weather criteria which was 38 degrees with precipitation expected for 32 degrees without so that hundred 18 seems to be for those things do you incremental cost seems to be both the every night between November 15 no go back is that a hundred eighty thousand just for the temperature

[79:01] chance that Sam talked about or is that also the every night between November 15 that's the every night so what's the estimate on the temperature change one it's gonna be somewhere between a hundred thousand and one hundred and eighty it's gonna be somewhere between our current cost and adding some additional days we'll have to figure that out but it'd be somewhere just an incremental hundred thousand that's looking maybe in the thirty to sixty thousand additional cost yeah it could be on the high-ranked as many of those every night days that are identified did meet these weather triggers okay in and for the rest of this we talking for the rest of the season the rest of this year for the foreseeable future I mean we're in a period of transition so I'm just clarifying well I mean I would start with now for sure at that and I guess I feel like it could go all

[80:00] year I mean we get some pretty cold nights and June and July when it's rainy so I would just apply that through the year generally speaking it's mostly gonna be in the sheltering season and revisit next year yeah agree that sounds good anybody disagree I get some pretty bad weather in May it seems for sure snow and things like that it has to be you know we're making requests to this house we can't tell them what to do so it sounds like Isabella knees take this to report it sounds like there may be sympathetic but well they have capacity and then there's a resources part to this dude and I guess the only other caveat is that we monitor it closely because we want to also the investment in the new culture change to also be successful so we're going for two goals here we're coming back in June with an update on all of this so to be an

[81:00] opportunity to assess them I just want to say that the church that you provided with the nightly sheltering was very helpful thank you more more of that will be very helpful yeah thank you okay and let me echo the thanks to the shelter for going through all this with us and while on the bridge house - it's a whole new strategy and I know it's been a bit arduous but I think we're hopeful that it's taking us to a good place is that good for you okay thank you Karen Saylor's thank you as well I will be departing this evening and you'll be advised by deputy city attorney Erin O'Brien or Erin Poe I'm sorry who will be working with the housing division on this right thank you all

[82:39] selector let me introduce Curt fern harbor the deputy director of housing and Jeff Jia Jian senior project manager who will present the housing board update good evening I'm also joined by Kristen Heiser who from the division of housing that

[83:01] oversees a lot of our funding aspects and supports the TRG and c-dac that you'll learn a little bit more about so when we presented this to you on December 5th it was a little bit of a short preparation schedule and that the the community wasn't really tuned into that topic that night so we're gonna go over a few of the aspects that we went over on that night as well for the benefits of bringing everyone up to speed Jeff is going to be doing the presentation tonight jeff has done the bulk share of the work in preparation for this study session good evening everyone nice to see you again I'm gonna just spend try and keep it to about 15 minutes of an overview of mostly what was in the memo for the benefit of those

[84:01] watching at home or on the recorded version and provide a few updates to that information as possible the way we organized the information and the thought process to bring you the draft ordinance that you requested is up on the screen we reviewed a number of existing conditions and then made some assumptions about why we why we would want to create a housing advisory board what it would do and what types of experience and perspectives we would want to see represented on it as a way of preparing a draft for you to consider tonight so I'm going to go through each of those briefly and certainly if you have questions about the content feel free to ask and we do have three study session questions for you as is our practice we have prepared a draft purpose statement to describe why the commute what this will do for our

[85:00] community when created what the functions of it the Housing Advisory Board could and should be and then what perspectives experience expertise types of of contributions you want people to be able to make that are appointed to the board so we started with a city charter as a city attorney on car pointed out in December there are charter provisions that govern the creation of advisory boards and commissions and currently there are twenty about half are more purely advisory and half are more technical in nature for the most part unless otherwise enshrined in this in the Charter they have five members five-year terms monthly meetings although often they do take a break in the summer and the advisory boards for the most part are making recommendations to inform City Council decisions as we mentioned

[86:04] before there are a number of bodies that already support the city's pretty extensive housing efforts there are seven that we outlined here and in the memo planning board covers development projects land use policies that affect the production of housing and what kinds of housing policies that define that what is developed and you you have also relied on them for advice on a number of uses of housing and there are recommendations on things like the co-op ordinance and others the technical review group is our is our division of Housing Committee that provides recommendations to the city manager on funding applications for affordable housing projects and programs they govern the affordable housing fund which is cash in lieu and other sources as well as the chap and and to a lesser

[87:05] extent our home dollars and some CDBG funds the home consortium is a regional collaboration it covers all of Boulder and Broomfield counties that is organizes the distribution and uses of the federal home program which runs about one and a quarter 1.3 million dollars a year Community Development Advisory Committee which is our longest standing committee governs makes recommendations to the city manager on the use of Community Development Block Grant funds for housing programs capital needs of nonprofits public services home ownership committee is a division of Housing Committee it advises staff on the implementation and administration of our home ownership program with about eight hundred permanently affordable units homeless strategy board it's a regional countywide effort to coordinate and align resources with the countywide

[88:02] house homelessness strategy so that is fairly new board and as as you're aware is working on the issues we were just talking about and then lastly the Boulder Housing partners commissioners are appointed by the mayor with advice from counsel they govern the city of Boulder Housing Authority which is our large largest provider of permanent affordable housing in Boulder do we want ask questions as we go or good to be in first you cool as long as they're really like clarifying they're not delving deep yeah well so as I look at this group I'm sure that these have different levels of responsibility and influence right and so would I be correct in thinking that the Technical Review Group is a very important one of this list they we rely on them heavily they are a bore a

[89:02] committee which is composed of people primarily with specific expertise that we have determined is important to advise the city on making funding decisions specific funding decisions so they have technical ability in evaluating the feasibility of projects the appropriateness and adequacy of the subsidy that's provided and the benefit that's created so fairly specific technical expertise there and so they provide advice for for funding cycles during the year plus opportunities is that right that's correct okay so that's it's fairly heavy left and about how much how many dollars would you say that they recommend each year and give you advice on the range would be three to ten or eleven million in a year the average is five to six okay and then the home consortium if you just stick a budget number on what babe is it a million dollars a year

[90:01] 1.3 oh it's declining okay and then the Community Development for the block grants how much is that a year okay so we got like six and one and one and then the homeownership committee now my understanding from conversations was that there hasn't been as much activity in homeownership is that right or wrong or the activity is somewhat different in that they review and help develop the administrative policies for the programs and they hear exceptions to exception requests and make recommendations to the deputy director of housing on whether there should be an exception made to a policy they do meet regularly I don't know the total that they would provide it would probably be in between the TRG and the c-dac okay and the homeless strategy

[91:00] board and then there's that's the county board there's also this affordable housing group that's gathering at the county level right so how do those really influence what goes on with our housing program are you speaking of the the regional okay so that that board is actually in the midst of being created probably over the next quarter well with possibly within this quarter but certainly by next quarter and it's looking like it will be broadly represented by some of the means to some of the cities like city boulder division of housing longmont housing the housing authorities and then others within the community that are stakeholders which could represent nonprofits it could represent chambers so a variety of interest for you know that have a larger

[92:02] interest in affordable housing and it will be a larger there will be a larger board I think 15 is the number that's being targeted right now Kurt just while you're talking about that is that envisioned the city representatives being city staffs electeds both what at this point it would be city staff although there's I think there's three sub or sort of sub committees one of may which have elected representative representation okay thank you in the last group housing partners commissioners your conversations with them mostly about projects where you're looking at how much can we put in versus what can you do with your how does that look and work and feel it wouldn't be it normally wouldn't be

[93:01] project-specific it would be more at a strategic level the the project specific interaction would be at a staff level and then the bhp staff would obviously have to they they meet regularly with with their commissioners about specific projects so when you say strategic level what would a venue be where the commissioners and housing got together and what would the discussion look like so we as lead staff Kurt and I over the years have met with the commissioners directly on their strategic planning efforts we have regular meetings with staff and occasionally meet with their commissioners as desired it yeah and

[94:00] they'll bill office that they will often invite us for a strategic discussion or you know start of the year or you know something like that but they would I would say that there there's certainly independence of us yeah of course they're totally their own thing they're our Housing Authority I was just curious when you say strategic I I would imagine like okay we have this much money that we can pool and these opportunities that we can do we're on the ground would we want to look at that but you're saying it's not really so much we're on the ground it's higher level that's correct all right yeah and that we will also listen to them they'll give input around policies and approaches that we're taking as well yeah we have Mary and Lisa and yeah but what's are any of these governed by the Charter membership limits that you stated no earlier no none of these are none of these have

[95:01] been established by ordinance none of them are advisory to council directly with the exception of Planning Board which is in the Charter have you ever kind of step back and looked at all of these different committees and considered a merger or something like that might make sense so each of them we have three but it would be within the purview of the division of housing and we do periodically assess that what functions they fill and whether there are opportunities to look at them differently each time we've said all these each have a discrete set of responsibilities a discrete set of expertise that we're trying to use community volunteers to support the city's efforts if I could just add something to that when it comes to the home consortium so the home consortium does beyond the city of boulders boundaries and so the goes beyond the city of boulders boundaries and so we are pooling home funds with Longmont

[96:01] Boulder County as well as Broomfield the home consortium members which are made up of city staff members from Longmont Boulder County and Broomfield do vet projects that then go to the TRG so there is cross coordination between those two groups when it comes to making funding decisions using those home dollars so there is some cross collaboration there okay it Lisa yeah I just want to point out that none of these except for the Planning Board are appointed by City Council so they're all answered to the city manager so these are a lot of groups so are these public meetings and are these lists at their time of meeting I've never seen them I know Kristen is that they're in but I've never seen them in what we advertise for our boards and commissions so what's the opportunity for the public to come and

[97:00] watch these discussions sir and could they be more public and can we have them more listed so people of interest could go and attend these meetings sure so we do publicize all of our meetings can't be public or our public and they're publicized on the city's website as well as we put public notices in the daily camera we have a listing of about 200 partners that have either received funding previously or just have contacted us with an interest in funding we said nope last me emails letting them know when there's a fund round occurring with that said we are we just entered this year we are reverting or we are moving towards a quarterly fund round in order to provide greater transparency and predictability to our partner for our partners and the community and so at the beginning of each year we'll send out a funding notice saying hey these are the deadlines for meeting these four opportunities our funding application opportunities and then all they'll be public on our website as well as we're

[98:02] gonna start and we've notified our partners of this that all applications will be posted on the website so whenever we receive a funding application those will be available on the website for review to the public is invited to attend our meetings and there it depends on the size of the meeting what we're anticipating usually they are held in our near our offices in the atrium however we have had in recent situations we did consider holding a meeting actually here in the chambers because where we were expecting a possible turnout so it really is varies depending on the topic to be discussed I will say that so all of that is public there are council get notices we don't right now okay and you can you pause I'm sorry can you remind us who you are and when you say our are you speaking on who so I'm Kristen Heiser I'm sorry I didn't I introduced myself but I thought the community investment program management with the division of housing the team that I manage oversees all of the

[99:00] funding and compliance for the division of housing so when you say our are you speaking on behalf of you when you said like when we have a funding cycle the division of housings funding size which involves how many of these it involves the technical or fee group home consortium c-dac and that's those three okay thank you can I just drill into the notice this is just a direct follow-up Elise if you don't mind that we talked about notice in the paper like I always look at this section a notice right and other than plain word I don't think these make it in the section a notice we could expand that I we do not asking for changes question so is it is this then but are all of these in like back in the classifieds page three but they all are like every single one particularly I can assert that the federal funding applications always are because we're required to do that where I would like to go with the conversation is there are times where because of the

[100:01] nature of a funding request confidentiality and agility to move quickly is required to be able to work with our partners to be able to provide them funding and circumstance circumstances and those situations we do not post them on our website because of confidentiality issues or just because we can't meet the timing requirements so there are there have been situations where we have to make a funding recommendation and go to the city manager within days and that gets in the way of some of the public noticing so I'm gonna get I get to get back to the presentation right okay I just want to ask and I think you alluded you could do that could those these meetings I mean we know when the Planning Board meets we know and BHP meet people can go to all those meetings and I will say that council does the point one one or all of them all the pH piece so those are appointed by but it would be really helpful if those were in the section a

[101:02] notice that's not a question okay that's a fine point we're going back to your presentation we have lots of input to give you I just want to try to get us to another way we prepared the draft ordinance was to review the research we did a couple years ago on housing boards around the country there were ten of them that are detailed in the attachment to the memo attachment B but we found pretty significant variation in their functions they advised councils and commissions elected officials a by staff advise mayor's so there's no common you know predominant way that they're set up we did find the majority of them are mixed with experts members as well as at large or lay members some are all expert and some are non expert as well so while most have experts on them not

[102:01] all have specific membership qualifications we also did a little bit of community and outreach and requests for input I think we were fairly successful in reaching interested parties with the time we had we had two public meetings attended by almost 50 people between them and then received over a hundred responses to an online questionnaire I hope you had a chance to click through to see those all those responses are posted as well as a summary of the commonalities to the extent that there were what we heard from those and a few conversations that reached out directly and emails was certainly there was no I wouldn't characterize any of this as a majority opinion of the community feedback so these are more themes and had enough

[103:01] resonance with enough people to stand out and in this case you have listed some of those that the board should really have a clear purpose it really should be a tool and a resource that helps us do more faster that it should be a higher level board that really focuses on strategies policies priorities and that the membership should be balanced there needs to be due to the type of issues and the complexity of some of the policy choices housing expertise does make a difference in those and we have heard that from former participants of housing task force from several years ago if you remember that as well as a need for you know general perspective at large people who care about our community and are willing to participate with others in that furthering our efforts some diversity open-mindedness creativity innovation more themes that we heard across the

[104:01] board and then one thing that was a particular interest was the desire to have some people advising you or with the rest of the board members that have really struggled with housing affordability at times in their life and you'll see in the proposed of the draft ordinance that we are implementing that in one way by recommending that a renter be involved and as a member of the board so I won't go over all of these but we sorted several responses into how people should approach this work and what kind of life experience or other experience might be helpful we took all of that and we made some assumptions in order to craft the purpose functions and composition of proposal that you have and I've mentioned some of them that this should not be a duplicative or gonna board it shouldn't replace anyone else it should be additive it should create a new resource for us to further

[105:01] our efforts innovation creativity whether it's coming from the community or from national research you know how can we do new and more things to accomplish our goals as a theme there an assumption that we're making that the thought that the focus should be on policy making an assumption that not program operations and that it would be beneficial if there were funding recommendations or priorities that came out of out of this board's work but that actual funding decisions are best made at the recommendations made by the TRG which is dedicated to this and doesn't have as broad a focus as a housing board will so with those assumptions we drafted a purpose statement for your review and input if you wanted to formalize something along these lines it would be probably formalized in the bylaws rather than the of the housing advisory board rather than in the

[106:00] ordinance itself but it could be done that way I believe we'd want to think that one through a little with City Attorney's Office yep so I understand that affordability is one big challenge with housing maybe the biggest it seems like there might be others as well which include diversity and diversity of housing types and so on so is there a reason you focus just on affordability here rather than kind of a full spectrum of potential challenges yes and this is I guess another assumption we made which is primary discussions and policy choices that you make and you asked for our support with have to do with affordability that is repeatedly the highest priority issue that people mentioned when talking about housing overall land-use patterns and decisions are really already covered by the Planning Board and so what types of

[107:00] housing can be created there's certainly some overlap there when you get into things like the current discussion around ad use and you'll see in later that we acknowledge that there's overlap between Planning Board and the housing advisory board and recommend a way to approach that there could be other issues like compatible development smart regs some of the ones that you mentioned so it could certainly be may have a broader mandate we took the approach of saying you know giving it some focus around the affordability challenges so that the list of functions that we put into the draft ordinance came out of a lot of the input that we had from the community from the research we did we looked at what functions other city advisory boards have what other housing boards around the country do and took this took a list and started massaging

[108:02] it to come up with this proposal for your consideration and we look forward to getting your advice on and direction on how you would like to shape it it's your it's certainly something that is could take all kinds of different forms but these are the ones that we thought would be a good starting point for your discussion in looking at the functions of the board it's clear that effort to avoid duplication we need to have some clear divisions of responsibility with the other groups in the city that's important the city's efforts but that's there are certain key relationships between a housing advisory board and other committees and groups that need more than just some words that describe different roles so we are proposing that you consider for the three housing

[109:01] division of housing committees the technical review group meaning development Advisory Committee and the homeownership committee that you sign off on an operating approach that would have them providing information and really updates and reports on their activities to the housing advisory board and in return getting advice and around aligning the work at the policy level and the recommendations that the housing board is making with the decisions programmatic decisions that the three committees are making so that's on the left side on the right side the importance of having coordination between the efforts and discussions at the Planning Board and the housing advisory board led us to propose to two approaches one would be parallel to what is done with landmarks in which the Planning Board have points a non-voting member to that advisory board to enable collaboration and coordination alternatively you if if that is asking

[110:03] perhaps a lot of added responsibility for the planning board the the chair of the committee or the housing advisory board could regularly report to and request you know any kind of discussions of - Planning Board were the two ideas that we had around how to help that relationship be strengthened so moving on to the composition of the board what we did here over and over was multiple perspectives are very important we landed on a starting point for you to consider to community members at large with no specific experience or requirements 3 the community members with relevant professional experience without determining exactly which kind of professional experience they would have so that they could support with their experience and expertise the discussions of the policy questions that

[111:03] they'll be asked to provide recommendations on in part that is based on the technicality of some of these and in part it's based on the experience of housing boards around the country which are predominantly or in some cases exclusively using professional people with professional experience direct professional experience often with particular experiences required such as owner operator of affordable housing or developer or a realtor or user resident so we thought that based on the feedback we've been getting that this would provide some balance and provide a group of members who could support each other in providing the best possible advice and recommendations to you and we did include that one of the members should probably at least one should probably be a renter based on the community feedback

[112:06] so we've outlined a quick timeline we heard you in December we did in a notice that this was a board that was likely to be formed with the standard boards and command Commission's recruitment I heard that we have at least a dozen people who have expressed interest in this board if you do create it so I outlined we outlined in this that we could probably bring you an ordinance depending on your feedback tonight for first reading in Feb you and hopefully second reading in March at your meeting in March recruitment with clarity around who you would like to appoint could begin the constraints on that are primarily your ability to interview folks and your desire for and the desire you have might have for a length of time by which people would

[113:02] have to apply once we open it formal applications and then whether you want to weigh in on the questions that are on the applications so if those are depending on the answers to those we believe we could provide you with a slate of or you could receive applications and review them and interview them and in time to appoint board members in April it's conceivable it could go quicker depending on your availability and desires there and then we're projecting that we could get started with meetings in May and June lastly we we started we've started to collect suggestions that we've heard ideas for potential work plan items if you see a board in April or around then what would they start working on here are some of the suggestions that we've heard we could certainly to the extent

[114:02] you want us to bring you so when you consider an ordinance that's something that you could also consider if you want or we could wait until the board is seated and begin working on them in the early days with a work plan for their term of all right so we had three questions outlined in the memo I don't know if there anyone has questions on the content or you want to dive into discussion I'm sure we have a ton show us the three questions again all right feedback on the purpose statement feedback on the functions and then feedback on the composition of the board okay do we you just have broad questions but I think all right so if we go back to your we love all the people who are participating currently in housing

[115:00] decisions the two boards that Council does have some oversight over the planning board and BHP are do the TRG the c-dac and homeownership committee do they weigh in do they ever update Planning Board or BHP not currently and is there a reason for that so all of these are are really supporting the staff program operations efforts so they are internal to the city in that regard we have at and at some level we have tried to preserve some of objectivity so building a relationship between the members of the TRG and the BHP commissioners could be perceived as

[116:02] or even lead to certainly would lead to a different level of understanding for their projects when they come forward so we if we were to do that we would probably want to figure a way to do it with others that apply to help us meet our housing goals I mean what I was asking specifically is a lot of times we'll have something in front of us and then we'll have a Planning Board recommendation and other boards recommendations and I'm just wondering the Planning Board makes some large decisions sometimes they might be well served by having input from these other boards so I think their scope is a little bit different like the homeownership committee is working at a much lower level a particular homeowner will we'll do it in a request to them so they'll look at sort of that that sort

[117:00] of micro level mm-hmm and then they were they look at sort of the internal they give feedback on sort of the internal policies within the division of housing related to homeownership I'm not sure that that's a really I'm not sure how relevant that is the Planning Board or bhp the home consortium that's it's sort of a different animal as well because it's it's it's more of a regional you know HUD required process that's good so I'm happy to go into the follow up question sorry so I think I understand that most of the groups wouldn't have much to say went to the Planning Board there would not be a lot there it seems to me however just following up on Lisa's the technical review group has a really interesting role I mean it advises I think on a quarterly basis

[118:00] plus opportunity right and so opportunities obviously have to move fast but you know I serve on the Planning Board it would have been very interesting to understand how all the funding pieces fit together because there's the tax credit piece there's the you know what comes from the housing department itself for the opportunities and so I assume that for things like Tantra and for the Osage rehab that the technical review group was involved with those decisions right I think it would be interesting if they debriefed somebody about those decisions outside of the housing department because I think one of the things that we're hearing is this is kind of a murky process but it's you know big dollars and it results and good things for the community I mean Tantra is a great success all those Osage and Thunderbird work is great success but I think whatever happens with the board that we're talking about now I think the Planning Board would benefit from understanding that a little better I didn't understand it very well when I

[119:00] was on the Planning Board and that's just something that I think generally speaking increasing the literacy of our community particularly the boards that work on this couldn't hurt a thing I think we would be glad to do that once our American than me yeah there's a slide there that's got plane board to have or have to planning board the the ex-officio representation it seems to me like there's a very subtle difference between each of the two ways to go could you elaborate a little bit under the differences there sure the model we started with was landmarks we're planning board appoints a non-voting member that participates in all the landmarks meetings that makes a bunch of sense it's also a significant additional

[120:02] responsibility for a board that already has a lot of work so in thinking about that we thought well what's an alternative if that were to be something that Planning Board felt like was a little much or council a you appoint planning board as well and set their work program to some extent that an alternative to establish a stronger relationship between these two boards would be to have the chair of the housing advisory board regularly go to planning board so it's a question of where the work is and what direction the information is flowing on both it should be two-way but in the first it's planning board participating in the work of the committee a planning board member in the second it's more an agenda item on planning boards meeting and then

[121:00] discussion that's how I'd characterize the difference and there are certainly other ways to do it those are the two that we thought worthy of putting up for you to consider but my question just has to do with size and our limitations on in having just five so if we want to just be a little big bigger yeah what are our options so so our general default rule in the Charter is five voting members one option would be to have the five and then have a ballot item changing the Charter to be able to have more that's how crab has seven members or you could have non-voting members like the Planning Board chair or you know bhp representative and expand it that way okay that's really just voting members okay any more questions and we'll launch into

[122:00] let's do the let's do them one at a time then can we just start with the function or the purpose where you recommend it that at least one of the members be a renter did you consider putting criteria beyond that say for example a renter in a certain income level or situational circumstances the most common comment we have is there should be a market rate renter because of the challenges of the market for renters right now others suggested there should be someone who is renting an affordable unit some of the board's around the country require that it be a section 8 renter we thought that the rental renter perspective was important but didn't choose to recommend that it be more constrained than that okay first question

[123:05] every statement Lisa Jill Sam so I appreciate mine pretty much with this except I don't want to limit it just to affordability certainly affordability should be a huge chunk of the discussion but at least my intention of this board is to get the community talking more about housing in housing solutions housing types so there is better understanding of housing better understanding of what our challenges are and dialogue between different neighborhoods different people with different perspectives and so I'm fine with having affordability in there but it cannot be just affordability it needs to also include housing in general and

[124:00] how you want to phrase that I don't have a strong opinion I like how you have your little circle functional coordination where you have hab or you have TR GC deck and Hawk informing and reporting to have and then have advising and aligning where and so I like that circle just so that the housing advisory board is in tune with the funding challenges and opportunities and or it becomes conversant in housing lingo and and funding because it's as we all know it's pretty complicated and there's all different types of housing so I think I'm fine with the with the draft purpose as long as it includes this functional coordination as well as more than just affordability so

[125:03] I'm not going to wordsmith you can figure that out all of us might want to okay yeah yeah yeah I actually agree with Lisa on that and largely because I think that affordability could be interpreted as our IH program and our T to restricted homes and we have so many housing types that provide affordable options that that are not in that and so how do you you know categorize all those whether it be a mobile home an ad you a co-op even the conversation we had about split lots you know some people saw 800 as a good missing middle range and some people thought it was you know totally unaffordable so I think she's right we need to broaden that I I'm really concerned you know every other housing board or the plan that the City Council votes on so Planning Board and Boza and anyone touching housing it's really rooted in some kind of document right

[126:03] like planning boards interpreting our code so I'm concerned that this is a little bit rootless and I you know the comp plan really is the guiding document so when we say the city's housing goals I'd love to see something along the lines of rooted in the Boulder Valley comprehensive plan just so that there's those clear guiding principles of what our housing goals are and they're not making up new housing goals we actually have really clear housing goals there they're coming up with ways to meet those I guess for me I like the way it reads but I would take affordability out so that it would say responses to boulders housing challenges and accelerate progress towards the city's housing goals I'm kind of ambivalent as to whether we call out the comp plan here or not because the comp plan is

[127:00] kind of our guiding overall document if we want to that's fine but I also think that we have other like housing goals that we've set out like that the 10% you know permanently affordable and then the new 5% goes and I don't think those are necessarily in the comp plan and that way I don't think so but I could be wrong so there's also other places that we've set goals and as a city so I I think as a vision statement this might be just good enough but I would take affordability out of it because I'm concerned about diversity as well as affordability and that people have good equal opportunities and that we are developing the right stock with and this is where I think housing can inform planning right it's like if housing advisory board sees a challenge with some kinds of zoning they could tell that to Planning Board and say actually it would help us if there were a land-use fix that went along with these other housing goals so I think there's I

[128:00] really do like the link and it's going far I feel that you've created with Planning Board Erin so I think you're at a great statement and he's very sharply written but I'll agree with different pieces of what's been said that I think having a mandate beyond affordability I think makes sense but different from Sam I would keep the word in there because I think that is our most critical challenge with housing so I wouldn't want to just drop it and say well we have lots of challenges and they're all you know so I would keep affordability in there so it makes you'd have maybe it makes the wording a little less great but something in there that like what Lisa was going for something like housing challenges including affordability yeah something like that well and to me okay I had a little bit more yeah and so that was on that that

[129:03] particular language and then just that I thought what Jill said made sense to me because we do have I don't know if we put it here or if it's in the secondary paragraph or something but in addition to the the comp plan which I think does have our percentage goal in - and we just altered it this year to say ten or more I forget the language we chose but but then also like the middle-income housing strategy that's adopted so I would want to make sure that the housing board was moving in accordance with our adopted goals and plans so whether that goes in this statement or whether it's in some like next paragraph you know that's the explains their mission I think that's a good thing to include you're just you lost me on that you want goals and plans well actually to just that makes it make it explicit that they should be carrying out our various adopted goals and plans and that could go here or it could go in an explanatory thing afterwards and they're kind of Commission okay I'll just throw

[130:05] in there I I'm agreeing sort of trending towards where Aaron's heading I think we should list if we want to expand we should but I think taking things out makes things more vague let's add stuff in if we want to be more specific so I think affordability is a huge one but if we want to say diversity and accessibility is kind of the three challenges then I would say them because I think that clarifies I guess for me just having affordability be the only one is the only challenge I had if you want to add it so they're just a few and we understand there's even others beyond those that's fine but those are the big ones that I think yeah other thoughts on this who hasn't spoken I just had a question for you Suzanne on you mentioned accessibility and what do you mean by that are you meaning accessibility to for to people with

[131:02] disabilities are you accessibility a that's a good question I was being kind of loose about it I mean just because I think affordability I mean we're looking at for instance the shared equity model which doesn't mean the house is affordable but you're providing accessibility for people into housing so you could mean it that way it's tools to make it accessible even if it's really expensive it could also mean literally accessible to all I guess yeah I think I think both definitions would be good here because I was thinking more in along the lines of things like Universal Design things like well that's true except for this do we think this advisory boards gonna be dealing with design in terms of you know housing types if you add diversity I think that that's okay I like the idea of policy and and types

[132:01] but I don't want these people to have to review InDesign but I mean I think diversity also has two meanings right there's diversity of housing types and there's the diversity of the population that connect access those types so I mean I actually like leaving it laying in that way because there's multiple meanings of each of them okay so what I heard is adding those to other things and maybe either if you're just gonna make it one paragraph housing goals and plans if there's a second paragraph you can add lots more well I think it with respect to Jill's point which I like about adding making sure that it's rooted in some sort of document I think that there are various documents that have bits and pieces so maybe saying something to the effect of relevant documents or something like that okay anything else on this lisa microfilter

[133:07] i'll wait for the next question because it's the feedback on the function someday okay we'll go to that next is that good enough on the purpose okay okay good so where do we get at the who sits on whose board part okay so we're dealing with functions that's great a clarification question on this one what do you mean in the second point by legislation as opposed to state and federal advocacy we don't usually call say with the city council does legislating right so the full statement is study prepare and recommend to the council long and short range priorities specific legislation probably in mostly going to be ordinances that you as a council would pass finding priorities and programs to alleviate affordable housing problems so that's how we draft

[134:01] it we couldn't fit it we didn't want to fit all six and jam them in a small fun so in that case legislation means local ordinances yes and then there's this the last one there is to advise you as counsel on appropriate advocacy roles for state and federal legislation that's just what do we want to consider the word ordinances rather than legislation I just always think of legislation as a state and federal thing good also I'm curious it sounds you have a number well number one I want to make sure that it's we've now kind of correct it we're not going to be just talking about affordable housing so through all of this we're gonna have a variety of different housing including affordable housing ok do we can I let's pause there for a second and when we say affordable

[135:00] we mean permanently affordable and market rate correct or do we want to state that market rate of worth stating in some place it's not the purpose is that what you were getting yeah I just want to make sure we have as broad of a bandwidth on housing so this community can talk about housing which we haven't done ok well so that's the dialogue piece but in terms of the definition of what do people want to expand to be very clear it's both firmly affordable and market rate affordable we're talking about yeah well I mean I suppose because market rate affordable is what 0 ting I mean the problem with saying market rate affordable is how long will it be affordable unto whom and that's always my challenge with if we're talking about shedding 900 homes a year from affordability and that's a point that people like to keep bringing you up then market rate affordable I would just leave it as affordable and not get specific about that because things like mobile homes I believe will often stay

[136:02] affordable for a long period of time but things that are on the bubble like homes in South Boulder may move out of for debility fairly quickly I just meant that ok let me put it another way some people when they think they see this think we're only talking about per deed restricted and I think we're talking about more than deed restricted so I just meant to make sure that we're clear this board is gonna advise on beyond just deed restricted yes that's what I meant sure and I was gonna make a concrete suggestion just following up on this on number four similar to what we did in this purpose statement considering impacts of policies on housing affordability diversity and accessibility something like that to make it clear it's beyond but we name the things we care about yep okay that's good see I I never got my question which is it was why do we have coordinate regional housing efforts when there's

[137:01] going to be a regional housing board that's my question word for word well we have telephone right here that's shorthand for the full statement function which would be to advise the City Council on regional housing issues in the implementation of regional housing efforts per the city of Boulder or I mean so how is there not going to be overlap between what's forming and right now so there could be overlap and depending on how its implemented I think the the point here was to advise the City Council I mean the City Council is actually like a key stakeholder in the regional plan in the regional strategy and I think to take them out of to take this housing advisory board out of that

[138:01] discussion saying you don't give input on the the regional approach it's really again it's advising the City Council no I just wanted to understand why it was in there because I was not fused it's not that it doesn't have the role of the regional okay I think it's to advise us how we should be playing ball regional in those regional that's correct anything okay I just come in because I think that that an important clarification and I guess I would say number three evaluate and advise council on innovative approaches number five advise on regional housing coordination and efforts I mean I think that makes it really clear that that's what they're calling this is an advisory board right here yeah I'll agree with that because their role isn't to go out to the region and coordinate all the regional efforts right it's to advise and you know so that I think that's a good point well

[139:00] one thing I wanted to bring up is at the retreat we had a good conversation on how this board might help with mobile home issues and maintaining affordability and sustainability of mobile home parks and their residents and I wonder if that's worth getting in here somewhere do we want to call that out explicitly or how do we make that known that that's something we'd like them to work on well Erin that showed up is one of the first work items proposed work items so I actually think it's covered but if everybody else is comfortable that it I mean I know it's in the work item but if we don't need to mention it here that's fine I just thought I'd mention it we might want to consider putting here it's fine if we don't need to I think that diversity piece and the definitions covers it okay okay anything else on this one are there any expectations that aren't covered by this list of functions if this is what

[140:01] your Housing Board does for you are you is it is it sufficient well I'm with the as modified by your comments already I think it would be great if we had somebody doing this yeah no I like this but you know I'm hoping that and I just have written down some things that they could advise us on infill programs so like coops ad use do play those kinds of things funding so downpayment assistance other things types of housing you know that might work in various neighborhoods and of course you want to look at the sub community and the neighborhood to see if that can be some be supported I think other function should be review our affordable housing approaches review our

[141:00] middle-income housing programs and approaches and what are other communities doing what are what kind of innovations are other communities doing what are their successes would have been their downsides I'd like them to look at that and just the types of housing and maybe looking at perhaps zoning not not actually doing Planning Board things but looking at hmm so this this area anyway I don't want to belabor the point but maybe having it having the opportunity to having a discussion on zoning and I'll get to why that might help once we get to the board composition I have some ideas and I'd like to speak to that first so I guess one of my questions about that long list you just made is whether we need to

[142:00] spell out all that stuff or does diversity capture do we have to list all you know 80 years coops mobile homes or are we good if we because once you start listing then you got to be comprehensive right right in reviewing the other boards that councils have created the clear approach in the ordinances that create their functions and enable them is to be provide a general outline of the responsibilities for example tab does not talk about transportation advisory board does not talk about all the different strategies and tools that we are trying to use in part because that list would get really long and in part because we can't anticipate all the emerging issues over the next 20 to 30 years that this board will be working for you so I would say based to be consistent with how most of the boards are set up you take a more general approach such as these I think the word

[143:00] innovative covers everything that Lisa said ok so we're done with this one we're going to three no no we're not kidding just that I think it is covered here advise on strategy schools policies all of you know it all covers that and just that like you said I think we get enough okay the one thing I want to add and I don't know if you had a line here but I think one of the things that we went to housing advisory board to do is be really well informed about what the TRG and the other two groups are doing and to the extent and you drew it in your little diagram to advise on what the housing advisory board thinks priorities are and then the TRG can consider that with everything else I need to when they're looking at funding so I I almost think it needs to be here because it's coordinate with the other housing technical groups we call it out or not it just doesn't seem to fit into any of the buckets that are there well I don't know why it's just those three though

[144:00] shouldn't they be why would they only coordinate with those other two why not I mean it we're they're coordinating on regional stuff are they not at they'd be meeting with the Planning Board anyhow why would we limit it just to the technical ones well we can say whatever ones we law and they're coordinate with Planning Board as well but those three specifically they don't coordinate with anybody right now except for the housing department so it's a change in perspective that they would do that there's one other thing that we could add but I this is a question is is they serve a role in elevating the community dialogue and adding transparency to the community discussion around housing that is not how I would say that but any of that concept is that that this would help connect the dots for people anyhow so

[145:00] that I would hope by appointing this board and then holding these conversations that that would be a result so I could almost list it as a function if you guys agree transparency well I'm not sure if the I haven't figured out the right way to say yeah I mean I think you can wordsmith it but you understand the idea I think there go hand in hand what Xan said as far as bringing the function of those groups a little more and planning boards already well understood by the community and but those other groups are kind of less less part of the discussion right now and can ask a clarifying question as we launch into this next one shout this one let's finish that one out and so I think it's somehow to bring transparency and coordination amongst all the elements the community involved in housing decisions and engaging the community in that I really liked what you said about elevating the conversation to my hope is that this board doesn't serve to further politicize housing yeah okay we'll go to

[146:04] three position you need a question before Lisa goes yeah I had a question about it less about this piece but the in terms of how they relate to other boards as what is your thought on on issues where because this board we're talking about that they would recommend ordinances for example but the ordinances might well be under title 9 which is the purview of Planning Board right which has to make recommendations on that would you see this follow it like recommendation from Housing Board then planning board then Council or do see another sequence two things that would overlap between the two bodies in the event it were a title nine question it would need to go to planning board on other issues it's really a question of how you want advice to come to you as council if you it would certainly it depending on the issue if you go sequentially you have a certain kind of

[147:03] advice it was made here and then modified or elaborated on here and it perhaps creates the sense of hierarchy or you could get it parallel you could ask both boards to weigh in okay so let's have a discussion about this piece but I'd like to come back to this question because I think it'll matter so thanks for that yeah yeah questioners you I wanted to add to this good so going back as to whether planning board goes to have or have goes to planning board maybe add to this later conversation about whether or not both should occur for a period of time until things are established and I'd like to talk about that okay so I would like to just propose something and talk through it first and then get some legal advice so what I would like to propose is that

[148:01] we have a nine-member board and that we basically have five members that are that serve and are voting members each one of them gets a staggered term so one gets one year two year three four five then we appoint to what will be we hope board members but they would be in they could participate but they would be ex officio and once we pass the ordinance in the fall then they can become voting members nimi charter yeah if we go if it passes and then so there's there would be seven members the eighth member would be I like the planning board ex officio being on there and I I want to discuss

[149:03] your idea I think that could be helpful and then I would like to get somebody from TRG to be an ex officio on this board so that you bring that kind of expertise somebody who's dealing with TRG I mean maybe you'd suggest c-dac I don't know but it seems like TRG kind of has most of the action so and so that brings you to nine so you have ultimately seven voting members and two ex officios one of which is from planning board and when we just from TRG or some kind of that that kind of expertise I would so is that legal yes okay so thank you so I would like in

[150:00] terms of requirements I would like one of the people to be renter I would like one of the people to be a homeowner and the rest of them I think and the rest of them would be like the planning board your say they would apply and they would have you know different walks of expertise they could be from real estate they could be from a neighborhood they could be from section eight they but a broad section of people and let the City Council make the decision in terms of that diversity of people right now we have Planning Board my almost my entire time on council there we have never had assigned

[151:00] position for a Planning Board but we almost always have had a design professional on the Planning Board so anyway I envision it in that way instead of saying it has to be three professionals and one of the things I have with three profession we don't have three professionals on any other board so that doesn't seem to go well the council could apply it could appoint and people are open to a body at least I just want to ask Lisa question about I think that it could be helpful to have a person on the board that does not live in the city a commuter or some other person that brings in a perspective outside of the bubble so I don't know if that's legal I have a

[152:03] feeling that they have to be a city resident to be a voting member they could possibly be ex officio they that what you're after I'm just still after a perspective that is outside of Boulder it's all we have Aaron and then Bob so at least I think I think that's a great proposal thing it takes a lot of things into account if I could just offer a couple suggested modifications and see its huge thing and other people was that I really like the idea of getting this on the ballot and doing a charter amendment and going to seven people one thing I think that's gonna be a little bit of a logistical challenges of pointing a large board from scratch as they're starting all at once so I wonder if we might start with

[153:01] the five and then the Charter change would then give us an opportunity to stagger a little bit and bring on the two other people next year if if the Charter change were approved and so instead of having two point seven people all at once we could do five this year and two next year but they would still get to that seven and then I really like we're going with the two ex-officio members as well in terms of composition you know having a renter and a homeowner I think is good you know you know we're talking about how there was feedback from the community about people who had you maybe struggled with their housing and I think that is an important perspective having renter doesn't necessarily reflect that I mean there are plenty of renters who are fairly comfortable they face different challenges than homeowners do but not everybody is struggling so I think it's worth considering also having a resident of affordable housing as a member of the board and that and that could be of different kinds of could be rental it

[154:01] could be home ownership or something like that but that might get more to that that area of food back were of somebody who does struggle to afford market rate housing for example so those are my thoughts there I just wanted to agree with Aaron about the some sort of criteria for the renter I was proposing as a separate person but I said yeah as a separate person like a homeowner a renter and the resident affordable oh okay okay okay thank you Lisa that's a great start so I'll just agree with a couple things I was gonna actually make the same plate that Mary did which is I think it would be if we could figure out a way it would be great to have some for representation of people who don't live in Boulder because keep in mind one of our goals is to allow people who work here to live here and if we just have people who live here already we're not gonna get that perspective so I don't know how we're gonna make that work but I think would I

[155:00] think it's really really important I agree with Aaron's approach on that on the if we know if the voters allow us to go to seven to wait on I'm appointing those to people until I have to we get that permission it's otherwise it's kind of awkward there ex-officio and if the voters say no then I guess we told them to go home or I'm not sexist here I think it's gonna be a lot of work just a 25 so we do five this year and two next year and I like the ex-officio the printed ex officios from from Planning Board and the TRG I think that was all good I'd like to throw in a few preferences so we're talking about requirements number talked about preferences so one of the requirements was a renter and I think that's great we can talk about whether one is a sufficient number or not but I think I think you also in your materials also talked about preferences and this doesn't have to be hardwired these are just preferences you know we're always looking for you know balances gender balance and so on so forth a couple of preferences that I would put out that without being prescriptive would be Geographic so you know we wouldn't want off all five or seven of them to come from the same sub community we would a

[156:00] preference would be to have them spread out across town I think my preference would be to have more than one renter maybe with Aaron's amendment that starts to get a little closer to where we need to be because again that's the cohort to some extent we're really focused on people who already own homes and already live here are probably in pretty good shape it's the folks who can't afford to buy homes for the people who can't afford to live in Boulder folks we're trying to help him so they are the best situated to share with us what some of their needs are I get the fact that we also want a neighborhood input because per Lisa's laundry list of innovative things some of those could affect people who live here as well so I think we're looking for a balance between those those two so I we could go on and on about but about cohorts we could talk about age cohorts we talked certainly gender and so I would just say that would all of your preferences and obviously it's up to this council and future councils to make that weighting decision you know it's dead first of all I'm fine Lisa with your proposal that sounds great either

[157:01] whatever we choose I don't have a preference so much on the number right now as much as this cohort you know the experience of people who rent versus own is vastly different in in this community and 54 percent of them rent and in 46 own and so if we were gonna do a truly representational board it would be if there are seven members four would be renters and and they are neighborhood people to renters live in our neighborhoods so we could still do that from each of our sub communities and you know we know that about 10% of our residents live in affordable housing so I think that's a really important demographic and then that could fall in either the rent or own category cuz there's those who rent at BHP those who own through Sol or whatnot and and then finally I think a mobile home owner is really important we've thousands of mobile homes and that experience is again really really different than you know either renters or owners in real

[158:01] property so so I I think as we're forming this board it's it's really really important that we get that diversity of perspective so I'm pretty good with Aaron and lisas combined suggestion of start with five give them their staggered terms and then if charter amendment passes that we get to seven then we'll figure out how to add the other two certainly support the ex-officio members and the TRG if there's somebody there willing to sit as next officio on this and a planning board I know it is a little more for Planning Board but I expect they'll be interested to be honest with you I mean we usually don't have when I was on buying board we didn't have much trouble filling the landmarks and I think this will be even more interesting I for sure want to see a renter and a homeowner but beyond that

[159:00] I really trust Council to kind of make this blend I agree I would support having as broad a spectrum of experiences on the board as possible but also I would like to have some people who know something about housing regardless of where they live so in other words if we have a person that we say that guy-girl has experience in housing finance and they previously lived as a renter and now they happen to be a homeowner I think we could benefit from from that experience so it's really hard to you know make a bunch of prescriptive slots because you get people who have really interesting combination backgrounds so I guess for me I feel it's important that we have a renter and a homeowner and beyond that I'd hope that we look really at the people and their experience individually and try and build a diverse board so I'm kind of more where Bob is I think in saying that I have preferences that we had people with this broad experience but I don't want to prescriptively say you have to have this and that and the

[160:00] other the one other thing that I'll point out is I believe in charter it says that all of our advisory boards have to have a mix of genders so I believe there's always going to have to be that to factor in as well so I like like Bob's idea I agree with what everyone said about the numbers and I like Bob's idea of the geographic diversity because I think that that will give us a really I see this as a community board in the sense that it really represents diverse elements of the community but the housing issues are really grounded in community and I think that it's important that they are well represented there are lots of people who in our community about housing and issues through dealing in their neighborhoods and with issues that are involving their neighborhoods one of the groups that hasn't been mentioned as people who can't afford to

[161:00] stay in Boulder and rather than having worrying about people coming into Boulder and meeting they have a say in it I'd rather that would be fine ex-officio but I would rather have more people involved who are from here who are seeing the sort of radical changes and challenges that we're all dealing with and will have a positive say in in evaluating and moving us forward that way but I think all of the questions and responses here who knew there'd be so much enthusiasm for this housing board it's really great I wish I have something from Mira buy-in I told her I would for her so I'm nearby right now where I'm reading premier by Europe I wrote and she can't be here tonight one she favors the seven or nine member board in order to get a greater diversity of opinions too we learned at

[162:03] council meeting last month that count the city already has three or four housing advisory committees consisting of housing developers real estate experts financial experts that important perspective seems well represented thus I would like this new board to mainly consist of lay people that is community members at large it is important that our advisory boards also benefit from the perspectives and ideas of everyday citizens Boulder has smart talented residents it's a resource we shouldn't overlook and then three her last point is one of the things she heard most consistently on the campaign trail is that neighborhoods feel they received the impacts of housing decisions and policies without any real voice in the decisions it's not to say neighborhoods won't change but they should have an active role in shaping that change the new this new board represents an

[163:00] opportunity for them to have actual seats at the table job it's from Europe I great well I I wonder if we could codify some of our intentions so maybe not I I get what people are saying about prescriptive is tough like you want to be able to tap the best people with diverse experiences and if you put on too many rules then you lose some of that ability you know like when we appoint boards we for each one of them it has well you have to have at least one man one where you might have to have two design professionals or whatever but could we get something maybe written into that to at that level that says we look for in this board people who have experienced you know housing challenges who come from diversity types of housing who perhaps a mobile home owner you know like some I don't know exactly what it is but we've had this discussion about some of the things that we're looking for in people people who have experience with housing policy so like something like a little you know a sentence that

[164:00] lists some of the qualities that we're looking for in board members so that we're reminded of that in future councils are reminded of that as they point future board members I tagged on to that and so and following on that in addition to to expressing our desire for this diversity I would suggest that when you form the application you ask those specific questions or you render are you own or how long have you lived in Boulder what sub community do you live in what's your experience in other words have them call that up so then we look at these applications we can kind of put them in piles or here's the renter file here's the homeowner pile and these are the people who live here and people want to live here or sub communities however we want to organize it so let's be very very specific about those questions you can force them to answer the questions ahead of time so I'm gonna jump in so I agree with all of this I do think that we want to and it's already been said but I want to underscore it we want diverse people who have a profound interest in the housing policy and

[165:03] problem-solving our solutions and I think that that should be however whatever the right words to say you can't just if you've never thought about it you've never done it but you but you kind of thing no I we need people that are really gonna advise us um one of our biggest challenges so I just want that that would be the kind of the first thing and then we look for all these different types of experiences around that and I it sounds like since nobody's mentioning professional experience that we're kind of doing away with that and I would suggest maybe we replace it with that the this interest and experience with housing issues and policy yeah and can this be I would just hope that we don't scare away somebody who might be really interested and has not had housing challenges but has a lot of wealth of experience in real estate or I mean I

[166:03] don't want to get into these professional skills but for me I'm hoping we can encourage what you just said Zann and maybe you guys can right go back and but that we want to make sure that we have people who are interested in advancing our housing policies and our programs and have some experience but we also want to encourage people who feel like they want to apply that they can apply I mean we don't lay out for Planning Board well you have to have this experience and planning and stuff like that that comes out in the planning board application and in our interview and we don't take somebody for planning board or any of our boards that Harry I just think instead of saying you have to make your living and the in in this sector it's just we're taking that out

[167:01] and saying no you just have to have some experience and a profound love of working on these issues okay we have Sam them and Mary and then Jill I want to be a bit of a curmudgeon here because Matt's no longer with us I'll be mad tonight and I want to push back a little bit on the idea that we're gonna list a bunch of things and people on piles I mean in particular the piles thing really rubs me the wrong way because somebody could have been a renter before and now there are a homeowner they could have been a renter and a homeowner and now they're back to being a renter for something that changed in their life so I want to want us to do what you were suggesting I think Aaron what you say you know talk about characteristics we want in applicants like we want you to be passionate about housing and knowledgeable about housing policy and dedicated to you know helping us better our housing policy in Boulder here are some of the things that we think that we want to have is experiences from the

[168:00] applicants and and then just list them in no particular order because I think it's the the some of the parts in the applicants that are going to make them the most appealing so I just want to be careful that we're not trying to just take a bunch of boxes and that we look at the whole of the experience of the people can I just say that that collectively we want the board to have a breadth of diversity of these types and that way it's not no one person it's more that we're gonna look for as we appoint as we had people and people come off that will be looking to have a breadth of that okay Mary and then Jill so kind of along those lines and adding to what what Erin proposed is let's not forget that there's a link among transportation housing transportation and the cost of child care so there's that triad so somehow including that those view points are also part of the

[169:02] equation would be great and I think I feel like Sam does but when it comes to the professional experience that sometimes we categorize professionals into one lump and they're actually we're all community members I know real estate professionals that are young and renting and paying off student loans and I know real estate professionals who have millions of dollars and owned 20 houses in Boulder it's totally different same with developers not all of them are created equal we've got small-scale incrementalist developers and we have big you know as big as you want to go out of state so so just be I think you know just like you're saying with this maybe you rented maybe oh and I think it's important for us not to lump professionals into categories either okay are you gonna make something out of this soup a process question well great Jeff if there's any other clarifiers the one thing that's not

[170:01] clear enough to me is whether you want the ordinance to specify a renter or multiple renters or not I don't think you want I've heard that you don't want to specify any other categories of members I was I was suggesting a renter and a homeowner I thought Aaron and Lisa said that yeah I heard pretty good consensus although there is still that one bit we did want to get in there one renter at least one runner one at least one one are we you want to do one resident of affordable housing or previous resident of affordable housing you would propose that Aaron I like that but I would leave it open and let the council decide if we get too prescriptive and and we have that requirement then we're gonna have to keep opening and we don't get somebody of that requirement to apply I like where Sam's going we all come with

[171:01] a whole host of different experiences in life and just like you said you know you just went through all these professionals you can't you can't categorize those people so I for me I'm hoping we can that the council can look at the quality of the applicants make sure we have a renter that renter might might be an affordable housing renter it just depends on the quality of that candidate and one homeowner and because if we're going to start with five I want to make sure we get the best people on here as possible and I think we represent broad perspective of the community can I can I follow on that just briefly I think when there's only five it's really important that we'd be very careful on just specify like renter and how murder when we go to seven maybe we can revisit this because when you go to seven you have if it happens if those people vote

[172:00] for it then you have more latitude so if you have three that are kind of prescriptive but out of seven anyway we could revisit that idea I do think that we should have that sentence that said in filling spots on this board the council will be looking for a collect you know collectively at the candidates to bring a diversity of having lived in different housing types you know whatever but I would just spill that because we do want to leave bread crumbs for we're following Council members I wonder if if we can include ethnic and racial background in that because I think that does affect how you experience housing in Boulder yeah that's already part of the Charter requirements yeah board membership you'll consider you'll consider it yes and I think diversity can cover a range of characteristics I would say the more

[173:00] vague you make it the less pigeon-holed you would be in possibly not having applicants to fill that spot I was in suggesting picture knowing because we're talking about a list of different qualities that were interested in considering and people but I'm glad that applies to all our boys okay is this the last question well there's it may not be a question but is it really is incumbent upon you to determine the speed with which this can move forward given the need for you to if you choose to use the same selection procedures sometime of yours to interview candidates and we will need some time to prepare application materials which may or may not you may or may not watch want to review what we are asking so that you'll have that information when you go to interview and select so I don't know that you if you

[174:01] want to take it up go fast I think it's probably a couple hours of interview to your existing interview schedule that's probably as fast as it can get done or you'll need to schedule interview times probably early April so here I talk to a number on the community who are interested in both this board and other existing boards and I think to the extent possible I know someone's dependent upon us I'd like to suggest that the application deadline be the same because if we stagger it if we have all the other boards and commissions and then housing we put people in a very difficult position because they don't should I wait for the housing board or should I apply for one of these things and I think to the extent we can have the same February 16th deadline I know that puts you guys under the gun as far as putting the application together because it's only a couple of weeks we can we can be doing the ordinance in parallel I'm not worried about the ordinance part of it but I'd like to throw that out there for discussion I

[175:00] know that's pretty darn quick I just suggested just a slight modification to that which is with the goal of appointing people at the same time so people can apply to multiple boards but perhaps the application deadlines a week or two later let it shift a little bit to give a little more breathing room to prepare them as we try to try to interview them more or less the same time in March and make the appointments at the same time at the end of March yeah and if we can't do it in the same number of nights and we may need to add another night of interviews I'd like to since we do actually you in fact do that because we're gonna have a lot of applicants and we're making five appointments so I think I'd almost suggest that we if we do a tonight that'd be dedicated towards thousand Borton maybe there's a few make up some other boards but okay people who don't like extra meetings be forewarned I actually think we'll need to do that and it'd be nice if we did it when half the council wasn't at NLC so okay we'll ask staff CAC to find another evening but it'll have to be an on Tuesday so and it will need to be before

[176:05] the 20th of March if that's that's if your goal is to be able to share applications to multiple boards and consider them that's when you're making your other appointments so C's the 11th to the 14th so is it before March 11th then if I have this right we have our council meeting on the 5th caucus March caucus on the 6th board interviews start on the 8th Thursday for interviews continue on the 13th and the 15th then we have a council meeting if I'm correct on the 20th mm-hmm and maybe we could do something

[177:01] on the 19th yes I suggest that maybe we could have the interview on the 19th and is the 20th when we're making appointments yeah certainly all right we're gonna earn our Spring Break this year yep well the 19th work for all of us here works for me yeah I can do it so it's only meerabai and ok why don't we go ahead and just say that we need to take them like we need to tape them as well we are confirmed that they'll be taped that one would be somebody have to watch it on the 20th on this schedule there are two things one is that there will likely only be about two weeks from the time we are able to get the application materials up and then the deadline unless we want to take up Councilmember Brockett suggestion of extending the deadline for this one board I'd be okay I'd be okay with Aaron's suggestion of

[178:03] extending it a week or you know when are they due now this sixth a be wary interviewing them till March 19 even two weeks I would be okay if that gives you guys some wiggle another practical question is as a new board there is a set of questions that have been used so those need to be developed and provided as part of the application process moving quickly mean the limits your ability to weigh in on that we could provide them we could do it as you see but if we want to get it up you know together and out to the public next next by the end of next week let's say those are boards in Commission Committee I don't know but maybe you guys do the first round give

[179:02] them to us and if council members want to add on to those questions or modify them then we could do that and get them back to you and then out by date certain well that's what we do with our other boards I would also say that the the questionnaire can't possibly be perfect the first time since we're giving you just a few weeks to do it it means that we have to ask good interview questions as well because the questionnaires are very important but the interviews are equally important and so if we have time to think about it and there's holes in the questionnaire because we haven't given you enough time to really go around the circle on it then it's up to us I think - consistent questions during the interviews that fill in those gaps we have we have twenty boards and commission sets of applications and I don't know what councils ever waiting on those certainly not anytime recently so I would just tend to trust the staff you heard a lot

[180:01] of the things that we care about I would tend to trust you guys put together the first application if we think it's you did a really really bad job you'll probably hear hear from us for next year's round we have council generally does weigh in on board and application okay Jill and then I have a thought I'm gonna be a contrarian here after listening to this conversation I think it's really fast you know when I applied for Planning Board these bigger more important boards you want the opportunity to sit down individually with council members I did that with many of you it also you you want to think about the questions even meet with other you know people in the the field it just doesn't feel like this gives people time to really do a good job and I hear what you're saying Bob because I've had other people like oh man I'd go for tab if I don't get the housing Advisory Board but I kind of you know whatever it is but you know what so what they should just go for what their first choice is and if they don't get it

[181:01] there's 7 months later there's another application period just seems really where they cancel no but it just seems really fast we want to get this right and we want good people and we want to know who we're appointing and we but which part is I mean what would when you say it's fast you mean them having to come up with a questionnaire or people I'm coming up with a questionnaire the people getting noticed that this is happening and that it's open and that you know what it's what the function is I mean III spend months preparing for to apply for a Planning Board you know well before the applications even open just talking to the people in this field and I just don't we're not giving people any real chance to thinker it just seems really fast I would suggest I mean I think Heidi told us there's already like 17 people who have

[182:01] applied for this board so there have been people out there thinking about it I like Bob's recommendation with Aaron's caveat of giving staff two more weeks because people do when if they're gonna go to the effort of applying for a board and this interview isn't going to happen until the 19th so it's even longer so right now they have two months they have two months to prepare I think there's a lot of people who are pretty savvy we've had different housing process processes and stuff so I would like to get this board seated at the same time if people and usually people apply for multiple boards I think you applied for a couple boards people apply for two or three boards so from my perspective just getting it going and these are staggered terms so I assume there will be a

[183:00] one-year term a two-year term up to five so and and then we can evaluate okay here's somebody a little green maybe we'll give that person to one year and here's somebody who walks on water and we'll give that person a five year how can I dig my Hill is on at this point I just want to make sure that that we're doing this right and I don't I don't think just because people want a backup option is that our reason to to rush so given that can you just spell out the timeline based on what we said but when do you think you can get out applications depending on the amount of input and whether it's all consistent or not on any questions I think I've talked with the city clerk staff we can get that up and posted by the end of next week if not sooner which would give and if we're going to go an extra two weeks that gives a month of time for people to

[184:01] apply if you can schedule the interviews on the 19th I don't see why you can't meet that 20th appointment deadline okay is it okay to shoot for that and if okay well and I would also suggest because right now I'm starting to write questions if people if people have suggestions I would suggest that they just send their questions to staff and staff can look at those it's not like they have to pick ours but it just helps them with your some ideas and we're talking three or four right yeah it three to five is fine if you have thoughts get them in this week how about that as I look at this schedule we may not be able to get all the other pieces done in time for an April meeting of the board if we could try but you'll

[185:05] have to I don't know Aaron I'm gonna put you on the spot if the ordinance is can we win can a board be seated if it's the ordinance has to be passed and we have 30 days well I think a board could be chosen before the ordinance was was final you know the the ordinance controlled I think when the first board meeting would happen so 30 days after passage of the ordinance sometime after that the board could sit and have an agenda and have their first meeting can I ask a question couldn't you start them with some of the ABCs of Housing and I mean take them to the comp plan talk about our housing policies talk to them about these different boards or committees the TRG C doc I mean just give them a 101 on

[186:03] housing and types of housing challenges we have a model for that the affordable housing task force actually had about nine meetings where significant portion of the time was spent on individual pieces of orientation materials as it were and do we decide are they meeting monthly that's the standard established in the Charter my we will depend on the work plan and them and how they'd want to operate I suppose whether they want to meet more frequently so I of course have an idea about this as well and and I would like because housing is such a challenge and we have so many and for me it's very timely I mean and and I guess I'm wondering if we could do two times a month so just hear me out hear me out so if you start with 12 months then go by two and if you have the little circle

[187:03] where TRG comes in and meets with them four times a year 24 mine 420 then there's holidays there's winter holidays there's spring holidays in there summer then I would take another six or seven out of there and then you're down to twelve thirteen so maybe have it monthly but then you know this would be a good way to go maybe have it have it monthly but then for additional times a year these financial people weigh in and meet with the board and talk to them or advise them have that energy study session yeah okay so we have to resolve that I don't think so in the Charter

[188:02] there has the the regular monthly meeting language and also the ability to hold special meetings okay I think I think purpose of the application I think people are gonna want to know is this a weekly gig or a monthly gig so I like Lisa's final approach which is monthly with with some additional meetings just people's expectations keeping in mind they have to staff okay so we done so this is outside of the three questions sorry that those were great if we could go to slide 15 in the presentation potential work plan items for sure I agree with orientation fee waivers next but IT project review I think have been on the list for affordable housing that's on the wish list for the affordable housing developers and if I was starting with those because those have been things we've talked about for a while to get here the n goes to

[189:00] regional housing coordination and mobile um strategy and I mean mobile home strategy is important to keep here I would like to add to this and I don't know where it comes around regional housing coordination but the down payment assistance shared equity program because I that's one of the types of things that I think we could really benefit from a housing advisory board you know having him wrestle some details to the ground and go around with staff and really kind understand how it would work and and in the context of a pilot so I would like to add that and get the feedback from them towards the fall timeframe when we heard that you'll actually be able to have bandwidth to get going on that so anyway I just thought I'd throw that in there because I think we could benefit from hearing from them about that I'll just acknowledge that I know that it was missing absolutely think they should work on it I'm just when the slide went up there I realized missing

[190:02] it was a mayor culpa not I omitted it intentionally at some point I do think preserving existing yeah housing something that everybody agrees on and be she had some ideas that they wanted us to think about I would throw that up there is also good feet wedding material you might have you know some board meetings where bhp might come and talk to them about here's here's the challenges they're looking at and so any of the Hauser's you know I think there's enough big stuff going on that two meetings a month for the rest of the years probably not an overreach in order to really get their heads around these because these are all interesting and complicated okay let's stop before we

[191:01] make the list too long you know well it just yeah just back on the coordination with planning board we there's a lot that we've worked out tonight and I don't want to try to pin this to the ground right now but I think we do need to figure out how they're going to interact with the Planning Board on the areas of common interests and in particularly Planning Board will you will make motions on particular language on you know leading up to ordinances right so that's very specific and said you know if you get something at competing from the housing board that could be difficult so can we just keep in mind and think about it and at some point we're gonna have to define how those relations work together thank you okay be good yep thank you you good I think we're done today early we're done early

[192:09] [Music] [Music]