April 30, 2026 — Boulder Urban Renewal Authority Regular Meeting

Transcript

Captions from City of Boulder YouTube recording.

[0:00] for the most part. Nice to see your faces. Um, I'm just going to help get us into the meeting agenda. Um, as you remember last time, uh, you elected a temporary chairperson, uh, on April 2nd and the first thing you'll need to do, uh, today after we swear on the rest of our new members uh, is electron chair, first chair. So, um, we'll do that in a moment. So I think we can just start by uh doing roll call Sharpie for your pick your name. >> Uh I need a roster in order to do roll call >> here. Nicole Rashall >> here. >> Chris Mohamad >> presester

[1:00] Harvey. >> Carlo >> here. >> Carol Winer >> here. >> Uh Neil Richmond >> here. >> Will sh >> here. >> Bean >> here. >> Michael Chzi >> here. And nine this one. >> Yeah. Right. >> We have a Is that it online? >> I think so. >> We have a quorum. Okay. Uh first thing we need to do is swear in uh our commissioners that uh weren't able to swear in our April 2nd meeting. So I think we have a little uh preamble that you all need to say to taking it out the office. We can get that language and then

[2:10] Okay. So for those that did not uh do the oath at the last meeting, you wouldn't mind uh raising your right hand and then um all together you can say I and then your name and go through the oath of office. There you go. I I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States of America and of the state of Colorado and the charter and ordinances city of Boulder and faithfully perform the duties of the office of a member of the Boulder Urban Regional Authority from which I'm about to enter. >> Thank you. >> All right. Uh before we do elections, we

[3:00] want to just quickly go around the room and do um uh introductions. Is that correct? So few new faces. I'm Mark Wolf, assistant city manager of our staff support for bureau. >> Jennifer Princel, I work for Mark in the city manager's office. >> Sarah Guyer in the city attorney's office. >> Claire Via Boulder County Commissioner. Uh Sydney Chan Burough board the president of the board of BBST board of education. >> Chris man, new burough board member. Chester Harvey also new burough. >> Carla Brown board member. >> Elliot Levante, city of Boulder staff member. >> Sorry, >> that's okay. >> You do. >> Tara Winer, Boulder City Council. >> Brown, I'm the economic development strategy manager in the city manager's office. Andy Arnold. I'm president of Pioneer Development Company. The consultant that sent you the document to read

[4:01] Richmond, new burough board member or commissioner. >> Bill Schro member new commissioner. >> Michael Bureau second round 20. >> Alex, city attorney's office. >> Selena online. I'm m you to the bar. >> I'll introduce myself as well. Selena Dance. I work over at the city manager's office and I'm an administrative assistant but also your board secretary. Is that the right term? Um so yeah. >> Great. Thank you. Okay. Excited to hand over the uh chairing of the meeting to somebody. So um as last time uh you all can nominate a chairperson. that nomination uh needs to be accepted and then you all take a vote. Um if there's multiple nominations that are accepted that be a majority vote um uh to who is

[5:02] elected chair and you'll do the same thing for chair. So we can open the floor up for nominations for chairperson. >> I'd like to nominate Richard as chair. >> I'll second that one. That nomination accepted. I I can talk a little bit about myself if you want. Okay. Um so I'm Ana Richmond. I was born and raised in Boulder. I did my graduate work at CU. I have a German degree and an MBA. Um most of my career was working in southeast Wyoming in economic development. So I've done economic development for about 12 years. Most of that for the city of Cheyenne. Um so we were generalists. We did uh already done uh business attraction, business retention, working with community college, working on workforce programs, partnered with the downtown development authority chamber on downtown beautifification. Um last

[6:00] five years I've worked um in clean energy supporting deployment of clean energy technologies. I moved back to Boulder a year ago and I wanted to get involved. So that's why I threw my hat in the ring and happy accept the nomination. >> Are there nominations? If I can nominate myself, I will >> and I don't know who doesn't doesn't know me. So maybe I could myself. >> So yeah, so my name is Bill. I've been in Boulder about 20 21 years now. Moved here to open up a coffee shop on the hill. Um, I've been the chair of the Hill Commercial Area Management Commission for six years previously. Um, have an undergrad in planning, a master's in communication both from CU Boulder and an MPA from CU Denver. I left Boulder to be the assistant town manager in Eagle, Colorado, where I was in charge of economic development, helped establish a downtown development

[7:00] authority. Moved back to Boulder and for the past five years, I work as the director of operations for Downtown Colorado, Inc., which is the uh nonprofit statewide member resource organization for urban renewal authorities, downtown development authorities, business improvement districts. Basically, when any URA around the state calls for help, like we're usually the one they call. So, I'm very familiar with establishing DDAS, supporting URAs with strategy, board dynamics, things like that. Um, I've been involved in several City of Boulder work groups and other things like that. um throughout my time and uh have a lot of experience in nonprofits and running boards. So, as a chair, I think again I have a lot of experience, but more than anything, I would run the board in in a way to be able to keep things on track, make sure we're doing the right things, and give you all a platform for uh sharing your opinions constructively.

[8:02] Bill. Uh should we do um any other nominations on chairperson and we'll take nominations on vice chair? Well, let's let's take a vote just in case somebody might be interested. Vice chair that up for chair. So, we'll do a vote on chairperson. Uh so, all those in favor of please raise your hand. All those in favor of Bill as chairperson, please raise your hand. Six. Uh seven. All right. So, Bill is elected uh chairperson. Uh Mr. Chairperson, do you want to take over? >> Thank you. So yeah, it's I'm I'm a little rusty

[9:01] when it comes to City of Boulder stuff, but yeah, I appreciate uh the opportunity and thank you guys uh for that trust. Um so following the agenda, second would be a nomination by vice chair. >> I nominate Ana. Is it Ana? >> Ana Richmond. >> I'll second that on the second accepted. >> I do. Yes. Are there any other nominations? That'll be in line for a motion. >> And all those in favor, please raise your hand. >> Looks unanimous. >> All right. >> All right. And moving on to agenda item 6B, consideration motion to accept the

[10:00] findings of Boulder Junction phase 2 condition survey findings. >> Sorry, chair person that we have to approve the minutes. >> I'm sorry. >> Item four is minutes. >> Oh, >> you may have moved. Oh, you're reading them. >> Oh, got you. Yep. >> Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Got it. Okay. Um, so yes, uh, approval of the minutes from April 2nd. I obviously abstain. I was not here for that meeting. Is there a motion to approve? >> Second. >> Second. >> Second. Any discussion? Can we vote for by acclamation? Would that be appropriate? >> We don't have any standards in the bylaw. >> Okay. The vote by acclamation, I guess, as I understand it, by Robert's rules, is that if there's a disscent, voice your descent. Otherwise, it'll be so moved and approved. Make sense? Okay, cool. By acclamation.

[11:00] All right. Minutes are approved. All right. Um, Burough's role in city economic development strategy. Is that presentation by the staff? >> It is. Um we are really five and six are intended to be together but we just felt like with this being our kind of first uh real meeting uh as Bura um our largely expanded bureau it'd be helpful just to pro provide a little bit more context of where uh urban renewal ultimately fits into our overall economic development strategy. Brown will take us through a few slides um there. I think the thing we just want to highlight is there are um we're going to focus in on Boulder Junction today. Um there are other areas of the city that we're contemplating for urban renewal and want to talk a little bit about the why behind that um and some of those early conversations. Um Boulder Junction is still also a very early conversation and you'll hear a little bit more detail on where we are in the process and what the role of board is

[12:00] today um in that process. Um so we're looking forward to that conversation. But to start I think it'll be helpful just to get the broader context of what we're thinking and um you know ultimately the consideration of any of these areas um for urban removal will be a conversation with you all as a board and and advising us and going through a very intentional process. But I think just at at a high level helping fill in some of the blanks of why urban renewal and why these areas might be a good foundation before we start jumping into Boulder County. It's fine. You can go right to the next slide. Um, again, hi everyone. I'm Rean, economic development strategy manager. Um, I think Mark framed us up well, but at a high level, our strategy is really about being more intentional and proactive in how we attract investment and to support vibrant areas across Boulder. Um, a key piece of this work primarily related to Boulder Junction.

[13:00] So, we'll get more into this and it's not on this slide, but I do just want to note that last year we completed an effort called the improvement district analysis. Um, through that effort, we took a hard look at our existing general improvement districts and really asked the fundamental question, are these still the right tools for some of the challenges that we're facing today? Um, and what we found is that while GADs have been effective in certain contexts, they're not always well suited to address some of the current barriers we're seeing, whether that's infrastructing infrastructure needs, um, redevelopment feasibility gaps or more complex evolving district conditions. Um so that analysis really helped us kind of take a step back and think more broadly about both finan financial tools and governance structures um and how we can better align those today with economic realities. Um so with that we've been working to expand and refine our toolkit

[14:03] um things like metro districts enhanced incentives and tax increment financing. Each of these tools can be powerful, but they're not a one-sizefits-all. Um, so the focus for us is making sure that we are matching the right tool to the right challenge. Um, and I'm happy to share that district improvement report with you all later on. Go to the next slide. So, Bureau plays a critical role here. um working together bureau and staff will help evaluate whether urban renewal is the appropriate tool for a given area. With that there are a few considerations. Um do we have a clear vision for the area? Can the private sector deliver that vision on its own or is there a gap? What are the real barriers holding investment back? And importantly, what type of intervention would actually move the needle? Is it

[15:00] infrastructure, financing, ongoing operational support? Um, so this framework really helps us ensure that we're using urban renewal strategically. Next slide. So using that framework, we've begun identifying a set of areas where there may be a role for urban renewal or other tools. These are still preliminary. They're at different stages of understanding. Um, but they represent places where we're seeing either strong opportunity or persistent redevelopment barriers. And so those include Boulder Junction, which we'll get into deeper, 55th in Arapjo, the East Bookend of the Pacific Area, and the North Boulder Arts District. We can go into the next slide. So I'll briefly highlight these areas in a little bit more detail. in North Boulder. Um the conversation is largely about infrastructure constraints. There are barriers related to flood mitigation

[16:02] requirements um and limitations in water and sewer capacity which make redevelopment difficult without intervention. So urban renewal could be a tool to bridge those infrastructure funding gaps. Um and importantly this is already a place with a strong identity. It's a creative mixeduse area. So, the opportunity is really about building on that momentum, not necessarily starting from scratch. Next, at 55th in Arapjo, um we're seeing a slightly different situation. There's already um pretty strong policy foundation in that area with the East Boulder sub community plan and the station area master plan in place, but there are also site constraints particularly related to the flood plane that are impacting development feasibility. Um at the same time, this area has a significant upside. It's a major gateway into East Boulder. There's

[17:02] strong potential for multimodal connectivity. Um, and we're already seeing redevelopment activity underway. So, the question here is whether targeted intervention could help unlock and accelerate what's already beginning. Next slide. And then we have the east book end of the civic area which is really about strategic reinvestment. This is a key location anchoring um the eastern edge of the civic area with opportunities to strengthen civic and cultural uses including the farmers market. And so here the focus is less about overcoming major barriers and more about enhancing and coordinating investment to reinforce the area's role as a civic and community hub. Slide. Right. So with that broader context in mind, I want to shift into older

[18:00] junction phase two, which is where we've done the most work. F Mark, >> just wanted to see if there were any questions on kind of that summary before we jump into specific. >> Do we is that in order of importance or how we're going to um deal with like are we going to start with Ber Junction or is just random? >> Boulder junction we have done the most work to date, but with the other areas it's not in any priority order. >> Okay. will say that it'll depend a bit on um conditions as we start looking at and I mean conditions generally not condition study yet um for those east book ends a good example where we know we have a planned redevelopment um there so there might be some you know more urgency to do a condition study um that potentially is within the boundaries of the downtown development authority as well so it's not necessarily urban renewal but um those are the types of conversations that we would have on all of these areas probably from now through the end of the year probably into next year.

[19:00] I'll I'll put one name on staff and call us. >> Um yeah, does this group have the task of sifting through those priorities at all or is that strictly your job or h how does the city look at these four areas? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I I think the role of staff u will be to do some preliminary analysis of those different areas and if we think um urban renewal is a potentially good tool to realize some of the vision that that Regan outlined that's when we would bring it to this group for discussion. So Boulder Junction is a good example of that where we feel like it based on what we know now. Uh it's worth looking at renewal in Boulder Junction phase 2. So we're starting that conversation with the board today um for Boulder Junction. We follow a similar process for those other other areas kind of be able to outline

[20:02] some of the pros and cons of the removal. Do we look at it as one at a time or all of them? >> Yeah. >> You know, dynamically, >> it's a good question. I I think we could do a little bit of of both. Um, we we don't have like a comprehensive citywide urban renewal strategy or anything like that, at least at this time. Um, I I think we do tend to look at those individual areas kind of based on the conditions that are in them. determine which economic development tool may or may not be uh may or may not be useful. Uh so it's a combination of things, but I think the point is fair of like making sure that the board has a a big picture um as you all are starting to dive in more specifically. >> Yeah, I just had a quick question. You had mentioned that it was within the boundary of the downtown development authority. >> Maybe.

[21:00] >> Maybe. I was going to say I wasn't aware that that was a thing. >> Yeah. and Rean could give a little bit more detail um as the project plans for that. Um so that we are exploring a downtown development authority currently. Um the study boundaries would include that eastern bookend Pacific area which is the 13 to 14 the Rapahoka Canyon. Um u the stage we're at now is we're preparing a city council conversation at the end of May uh where they would um give um essentially final policy direction on a few elements of that whether or not to bring that forward for consideration to be placed on the ballot. Council chooses to place that on the ballot. That would be uh likely this November. Uh and then the electors of that are your uh business owners, property owners, and residents within the proposed boundary. Um which right now is um still a study area, but likely to be downtown and the hill perhaps the

[22:01] connection between the two, but that's still to be determined exactly. >> Yes, >> I'm still a little bit unclear about the answer to the question over here. I'm sorry I didn't hear your name, Carla. So, has council directed that this group should just be considering um the the Boulder Junction area or are is it within our purview to consider some of the other? >> Yeah. And happy to throw a friend. um you are a independent body at this point created by the city of Boulder but the city council doesn't direct you to do a specific study and consider these areas when they're brought by staff so you're not constrained by one specific area you are able to consider whatever staff brings to you both feel >> can we so we have a a a study

[23:00] >> for trans junction can we direct a study of any of these >> you can provide direction staff consider that go out and see if there's consultants and follow that process for other areas if you feel that's perfect >> I'm just trying to understand what those are >> just a practical one there is there are budgetary um constraints so >> yes >> um >> yeah that would just have to be >> that would be a you could direct us to come back to you with that And I think, you know, we've been anticipating, you know, there there to be some activity once the board was up and running. Um we do have Pioneer meet Andy here um in a little bit more detail soon. Um they are under scope to do more than one condition survey if we choose to do so. So we're kind of ready for some of that. How how fast, what's the sequence, how we pace that we can have those conversations. >> Okay.

[24:01] Sorry, another point of order to to your point, Alex. Um I assume that when the authority was created that it was the boundaries of the city of Boulder. It's >> okay. So yeah, we the the urban renewal authority is allowed to undertake projects or plans of development in multiple spaces throughout the authority as long as it's within the the overall authority boundaries. So it's very very common for like the city of Colorado Springs has 23 24 active plans of development, right? And we would be a board overseeing each of those. So as long as it's within that authority, I I would imagine we have the the direction or or at least the opportunity to investigate further opportunities where reasonable and again budgetary wise. >> Yeah. Yes, there is a budget to do so. Yeah. Any other questions? >> Renewal districts and there's talk of a

[25:02] downtown development authority here as well as talk of metro district. How does the ven diagram work? Like what can overlay what and what are we specifically charged with? >> Yeah, it's a great question. You are charged with the urban renewal aspect of that. only urban renewal areas within the authority boundaries. Um the tools can interact. Um so for instance, you could have an overlapping metro district and an urban renewal area. You could have an overlapping urban renewal area and a DDA, but you can only have one tiff. So if you had overlapping downtown development authority urban renewal area only one of those entities could be the one to access the tax procurement financing. So there's some parameters around that in particular. Um and you know any area where we would be thinking about multiple or overlapping we would want to make sure that we're having that

[26:00] discussion with the board so you have the full context of what we were contemplating. And a metro district is not tiff, right? That's just additional mills. >> That's right. And currently, we do not have any active metro districts. City council did just adopt um an ordinance that allows commercial metro districts within the city. So, we would first need to have a metro district proposed and then city council has the authority whether or not to uh essentially allow that metro district to go to an election. >> Thanks. Are any of those anticipated? >> Um we are anticipating one in Boulder Junction which we could talk a little bit about that relate. >> We have not received that yet. There is a question. Um, Chica. >> Yeah, I was just going to add that um

[27:01] I'm pretty new to this. So, so, so I I was going to ask whether there's a citywide um economic development strategy like we get to have a bigger picture, then we start diving up pieces. I'm saying we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to do that. So, that that's where I thought we would start from. So, maybe I'm missing that. Yeah, that's a a fair uh fair question. We did a little bit of that at the at the April 2nd meeting to try to ground in some of the high level strategies of economic development. We we can circulate our economic development plan. Um if it's broad and so that for instance will say um utilize your urban renewal authority, look at opportunities for redevelopment as one of the strategies of of many. So we're we're happy to to share that. The other thing that will drive a lot of um

[28:00] these areas and you'll hear more about it in Boulder Junction is um you know did we do any sort of sub community planning, area planning um that was looking at um a significant amount of redevelopment or change within an area um looking at our comprehensive plan which um may be adopted over the summer. U knock on wood. Um, and that will have a lot of guidance across the city as to what what areas are are kind of looking at change over time. And so then we'll be doing some of that matching to where we need economic development tools to try to help facilitate that in certain areas. And so, um, I I've heard a couple of like, hey, what is the full context here? And I think we can we can do a little work on staff end to make sure that the the board has that that information. All right, thank you for the questions. Um, I guess at this point, are we ready

[29:00] for Andy for almost presentation? >> Um, I'm going to set the stage and then I'm going to pass it on to Andy to dig deeper into the condition survey findings and next steps. So, we can go right to the next slide. Um, so the purpose of the work that you are about to see is really about due diligence and informing next steps. We're not making any final decisions today. The purpose is really to present the conditions survey results to evaluate whether the area Boulder Junction phase 2 meets the statutory criteria for urban renewal. Um, and lastly to consider whether it's appropriate to move into the next phase of analysis, which would be the urban renewal plan and impact report, which Andy will speak to more. And just really want to emphasize again that this step does not establish an urban renewal area or commit the city um to an urban

[30:02] renewal area in any way. Um it really just allows us to continue studying the area in more detail so that if and when we do come back to you all um with strong consideration for a new urban renewal area we can do so with a clear understanding of the options the impacts tradeoffs. Let's go to the next slide. So quick background here. Um Boulder Junction has evolved into two different phases guided by the transit village area plan TVAP. Um phase one west of the tracks is largely complete. Um it's a successful transit oriented mixeduse district and that success was supported um largely by public investment. Phase two, east of the tracks, is a different story. It remains quite underdeveloped,

[31:00] um, more complex conditions, and it's not following the same trajectory as phase one. Slide. So, one of the key lessons from phase one is that transformation didn't just happen on its own. It requires that significant public investment um critical infrastructure improvements and strong public sector leadership. And that context is important as we think about what it might take for phase 2 to realize its potential and its vision. So with that, I I'll turn it over to Andy to walk through the findings in more details. >> Great. Well, thank you, Regan. Hello everyone again. My name is Andy Arnold. I run Pioneer Development Company. We're a consulting company that really specializes in public private partnerships and uh we do this mostly in the state of Colorado. We work with about half I would say of the municipalities that have established an

[32:00] urban renewal authority but we also do this nationally largely focused on brownfield development. I live in Durango, Colorado. Um, and so it's very exciting to be here with you at kind of the starting, right? Because there's a lot of ways that you can leverage urban renewal and tax income financing in very creative ways that really advance community development and economic development in a meaningful way. Uh, there's also a host of examples of how it's been abused, right? And so I think hearing this board and what you're talking about uh today, I'm I'm confident Boulder's in a good spot. So, what I want to walk you through is really the first step in the process. And as Rean was saying, um, urban rule 101, basically this is not to form this plan area, not even establishing a tiff district. What we're looking at is given this area that we're studying, is the area boundary correct? And is the area eligible for urban renewal treatment? We'll walk through what that means. Um,

[33:00] unfortunately, we're stuck with this word called blight. Goes back to the 50s. It's a very charged term. I'm going to explain to you how it is defined in statute and really what this term means is what are the conditions that are arresting sound development from taking place and more importantly what are the conditions that are arresting not just sound development from a private sector standpoint but that are arresting maybe your plan for this area. You know what's holding it back as Regan just described TBAP and older junction you know phase one phase two. What are the differences then? And we'll maybe we'll jump to the next slide and I'll talk a second about tax increment financing. But um the tax increment financing piece, I just want you to know as a as a board, as an urban renewal authority, you have an incredible amount of uh public financing tools at your disposal to try to remediate those conditions and really attract incentivize development that hopefully you want community, the city, Boulder wants, all of the taxing entities, Boulder County, the school

[34:01] district would like to see. tax increment financing is your most powerful tool. But today, we're really not going to get into that because that's what's going to come later. So that in terms of process, we're going to the first step in forming any urban renewal plan is to do what is called the condition survey and that was what was in your agenda packet. That's the document for what'll come next if this board decides to deem this area eligible for urban treatment is that impact report. That's where we look at that area. We see what could be developed in this area over the next 25 years. How much incremental property taxes, sales taxes, lodging taxes could be generated in that area? And what are the impacts to your tax advance? The city, the county, the school district, your special districts that levy either property or sales tax or allow you to tax in that area. And then finally, you have your urban renewable document. That's the third statutory document. And that is basically your guiding document for the plan. It's going to set out the goals, describe why it's eligible, and

[35:01] also dictate, you know, what kind of powers you have within this plan area, such as how you're going to leverage tax increment finance. So, those are your three documents. That's what holds up your renewal plan. We're at stage one here. Um, so what is a condition survey? It's not a public opinion survey. It's not, you know, a trimble. I've got the, you know, multicolored vest out there looking at, you know, what the topography is. This is actually a statutoily required document where Colorado renewal law describes play. They have next slide. Oh, >> look. I'm hitting it on my computer. >> Doesn't translate slide, please. >> Oh, yeah. That's the one. Thank you. So, just a couple things. It is a technical evaluation. There's 11 factors plate will get into it. focuses on those statutory lighting factors and it applies to the area as a whole. So, as you'll see with the conjunction, this is

[36:01] about like it's 168 acres, 75 parcels. You know, it's pretty broad area. There's a lot of people's property in that area. It doesn't necessarily mean that any one property has flooded. It's more are there conditions impacting this area as a lot of comments sometimes when I do these condition surveys. Are you calling my house bladed or my business bladed? Not necessarily. I mean, maybe it is, you know, there's just no roof on it. No, but um at for the most part, this has to do with public. Next slide, please. So, what counts as plight? There are 11 defined statutory factors of play. We'll get into them in just a second, but really uh the examples that I would say are including things that impact the public domain. So, a classic example is imagine you don't have a safe crossing on a road, right? You're on one side of the road, there's a highway, there's no pedestrian sidewalk, there's no light,

[37:00] can't get across. That's actually a blighting factor. That's defined by statute. Same thing if we don't have sidewalks throughout an area, especially if your plan is demanding that you have pedestrian connectivity, active transportation, infrastructure, bike lanes. that lack of that especially given adopted plan that says that this is improvements that you want to see that could be a bling factor. A big one is infrastructure. So when you think of you know parcels or areas of your community that lack storm water infrastructure improvements maybe they're inundred flood plane that could be a blighting factor. If you don't have adequate water or sewer to that area maybe the water lines are older the sewer lines are older. They're not sized appropriately to match the developments being proposed. that can be affect classic ones can include environmental contamination. So there are situations in which you have properties that may have had contaminated contaminated soil from past use. That can be a blighting factor. Um unsafe conditions again that that ties into that 100red-year flood

[38:01] plane idea. There's also other unsafe conditions where maybe you've had a lot of traffic accidents throughout a segment of road that goes through this area that you're studying. Maybe there's been some deaths, pedestrian or road or vehicular deaths. That's obviously unsafe conditions. Maybe that road network needs to be improved. Again, a blighting factor. And then there's the ones that you would commonly think of, right? Boarded up windows, burnt out houses, things that aren't meeting code, deteriorating structures. That is also a playing factor. And the last thing I'll highlight is that, and this actually is very much impacting Bolton Junction area as a whole, vacancy. you have a significant amount of vacancy whether it's apartments whether it's commercial development that impacts your property values and that is also considered a blighting factor by statute. So as you can see it's not just like boarded up windows it's not or broken windows that are constituting blight. It's really you know what are those underlying infrastructure conditions environmental conditions maybe market conditions that are holding an area back. So that's what

[39:01] we're analyzing condition survey. Most importantly, there's 11 factors. We've got to get at least four of them in an area for it to qualify. If you only find three, it doesn't qualify. So, this is the map of the survey area. All the parcels that are in purple are the parcels that our team looked at um along with Rean and Elliot for a small portion of it. Um and so we had 168 acres, 75 parcels that were served. Um, again, this is that phase two of Boulder Junction. Uh, it's basically everything east of the tracks except for a couple parcels by Prairie Avenue. And primarily this is industrial and commercial property. I think the assessment is about 95 91% is assessed as industrial commercial. There's like a handful of residential properties and actually the rest of the assessment is state assessed, meaning railroad tracks. So, um, it's very much a commercial and industrial district. Next slide, please.

[40:03] And so what we found is by analyzing this district there were eight statutoily required blinding factors that were identified in the district that exceeds the statutory minimum of four plus factors. So this area from our perspective your perspective is what matters. It qualifies for urban treatment and uh the conditions aren't just in one area. There are areas of Boulder Junction phase 2 that they're more concentrated these blading factors, but they're interspersed throughout the area. I mean, these conditions that we can get into in a second. Um, you know, largely impact the full road network. The flood plane is very much a large percentage junction phase two. And so, you could claim that these conditions are are dispersed enough for this whole area to be in. I'll highlight the fact that you don't have to necessarily survival boundaries. It's up to you. Next slide, please. So, this neat little

[41:02] map is geoloccated lighting factors. Each color is basically signifying a certain lighting factor within statute lighting factors 1 through 11. As you can see, one thing that I want to highlight is that if you look west of Foothills Parkway, you'll notice that there's a number of different factors throughout that area. If we go uh east of Foothills Parkway, those properties largely didn't show much light or those conditions of blight except for one, and that's lighting factor for unsafe conditions. That's the 100red-year flood plane. Those parcels are very much impacted by the 100red-year flood plane. If you look in your document, you'll see there's actually the flood plane overlay. It's in light blue. You can see how much those properties are impacted by slide, please. And then I'll just walk through this real quickly. So these are the eight factors. This is actually how it's defined in statute. So factor one, slump, deteriorated, deteriorating

[42:00] structures. There are a number of factor of of properties throughout the Boulder Junction phase 2 area that have, you know, deteriorating facades, deteriorating outside elements, some foundation cracking that's going on, especially with the light industrial parcels. I mean, it is a light industrial park, so it doesn't have the same aesthetics as, you know, old junction phase one. Um, but there's certainly some deteriorating buildings throughout the area. The main reason why this factor got triggered though is because the vacancy is extremely high. And this factor actually has to do with a decline in property values. And when you have large swats of commercial property that are vacant, you're not generating income on that property, it gets assessed lower. It's bringing down property values in that area. Um, factor two had to do with the streets, and this was largely in the pedestrian space. So, it's amazing. You walk from Bolt Junction phase one, and you have great sidewalks, medians. It's very easy to walk and bike about. The second you go over the railroad tracks, it's very

[43:01] difficult to get across Pearl Parkway. It's very difficult to get to different streets. It's actually a little dangerous to blind corners and things like that. And yet, you have this adopted TAP plan that says this should be a really great pedestrian, you know, connected area. So, clearly that infrastructure is lacking. That signals that factor. There's also deteriorated streets throughout the area. Factor three has to do with parcels. There's some odd shaped parcels throughout Boulder Junction phase 2. They're regular shapes, triangles, or they're like don't have exact access and there's some odd easements throughout it. That's triggering that factor. If you have parcels that aren't, you know, in a configuration that can facilitate development, that'll trigger that. Factor four I mentioned is the 100red-year flood plane. That's really the major concern for the unsafe conditions. Um, I'll jump to factor 10 because it ties in with factor 4. We did notice that there was a uh in the EPA databases a significant amount of underground petroleum storage tanks throughout this area. That's relatively

[44:01] normal, especially when you've got like auto repair shops and things that are collecting oil. But that's also flagged as potential environmental contamination. And if these parcels are going to turn over, different businesses come in to purchase those properties. That's an issue. You're going to have to do phase one, phase two environmental site assessments, and that could be very costly to develop. So that's why it's getting that uh flag. factors. Um, six has to do with the infrastructure. Again, this goes back to the street infrastructure, pedestrian infrastructure, and also the um the Boulder slip which is going to impact the 100geear flood plane. That's a major uh infrastructure improvement to try to mitigate the flood plane. There's already plans in the works of how the flood plane will change once the storm water infrastructure improvement is done. And if you really want to like kind of see the before and after, just go to Boulder Junction phase one and walk through some some of those areas where they did build up all the storm water uh infrastructure. I think it's right by Prairie Avenue. Um you could

[45:00] like walk down there. I mean, it's beautiful. You know what they've done, but it's if you look around and you look underneath the roads that are like passive the bike path to the sidewalk, it's a massive drainage channel. You know, it doesn't look it that way because the art the way that they designed it, but it's it's all that's what allowed Boulder Junction phase one in many ways to develop is that they remediated the flood plane and that allowed this vertical activity to happen. Boulder Junction phase 2 hasn't had that improvement. So, that's a major infrastructure improvement that's lagged in the condition survey. Um, finally, there's obviously site deterioration, signage, things like that throughout the area. And the last factor, factor 11, uh really has to do with underutilization vacancy. And this area, given your TBAT plan, is clearly underutilized compared to the vision that your community has for the area. And then I mentioned before, the vacancy rates are really high throughout this area. So there's high amount of vacancy that speaks to the utilization of the area. Next slide,

[46:02] please. So yeah, we just kind of went through this, but the summary is infrastructure gaps, environmental and physical constraints, parcel challenges, and under stationation vacancy. Those are like kind of the main takeaways from the condition survey that in my opinion make this area eligible for treat. My opinion doesn't matter. It's yours. So next slide, please. Um why this matters as Reagan and Mark have talked about before this is our first step but you know these are conditions that the private sector obviously is not handling on its own in my opinion I'd call it a market fail right like then you've got a multi-million dollar say stormwater infrastructure improvement who's going to go and just build that for an entire area when maybe I only own one parcel maybe that improvement is more is more cost would be for me to just build those apartments or build this new commercial set. And so that holds back an area

[47:01] because everybody's kind of everybody that owns property in the area or people that are interested in investing in the area like well when is that going to go away? If that went away, maybe I would do something. So that is just one example. But same thing with the streets. And then there's also this interest. I mean BNSF there's talk about the light rail Boulder station that's in between Boulder phase one phase two you know that would be a great amenity that's also going to require significant public infrastructure you know investment and an urban renewal plan can help solve those gaps especially through tax increment financing. So that's why this matters. That's why we're studying the area to see is this worth, you know, pursuing from Wood's perspective, from the city's perspective, and can we, you know, leverage those tools to create catalytic projects that change this area for the better. Next slide, please. All right, I think we're down to the last two. Um so just as again a highlight does this uh the impacts of

[48:01] this of this decision which you're going to be asked in a second about we can have a discussion obviously but this does confirm whether or not the statutory criteria of blight is met. That's that's what this condition survey and this discussion is meant to do. It does allow us if you say that this area is eligible to move to those next steps which is that impact report tax and credit financing projections and the UR plan. But like Regan was saying, this doesn't approve a URA plan. This doesn't approve the use of TIN. Uh and it does not commit any funding. So just to be clear about where we are in the process. Next slide, please. Let me bring it back to >> Yeah, Mike. Go ahead. Any Yeah. Any questions? >> There's a lot. Okay. Let's let's kind of get a list on here. Michael, Claire, Chris, >> just clarification on the issue of deterioration. Sounds like um it doesn't necessarily have to be a deteriorate building if it's a the buildings are empty. They're

[49:01] dragging down property values and that could be a light consideration. Is that correct? Okay. So, they don't have to be crumbling buildings with windows. >> I would say more often than not they are. >> Yeah. >> You know that that visual observation, right? We look at the assessed values over time and we're seeing that there's an area of the city that's not appreciating like oh there's there's something going on. >> There's a lot of empty space in Bjunction. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Thanks. And I had questions about a couple of these factors and I realize that they're statutory and we take what the legislature gave us and work with it. Um but I'm wondering so for me the factor 1A about deterioration of properties I look at that it's sort of circular that that's indicative of other problems and these buildings would be occupied they would be in better shape if there were better infrastructure better road you know street layout etc.

[50:02] But I I wonder I mean analytically I guess the way I'm looking at it is what about having an urban renewal authority or you know and a tiff actually leads to these buildings being approved. It's still up to individual property owners right and I have a question about another factor. >> Yeah Mark I'm happy to answer that. >> Go for it. Yeah. So that's a great question because I think you know we are getting a little bit into the tiff discussion but I mean this is kind of largely the point of what we're studying here. I like the way that you frame that. I think it is in a way cyclical the way that these factors impact each other. Like honestly there's a lot of overlap with these factors and if you see one probably seeing a few and that that kind of proves the point right but how do you help right? How do you attract that new investment? How do you fix those properties? get investors in that. Um, one of the things that an

[51:00] urban renewal authority can do is when you create a tiff district, that tiff district can do multiple things, but it is essentially capturing property taxes that have base value of an area, the current property taxes, that's not touched. Everything that's going to the school district, the county, the city that continues to flow to the school district, county, city. But if there's new development, that's the discussion, right? No, I know how a tiff works. I just I guess I'm just thinking that >> um you know it's for me it's some of these other factors if if they were ailarated we wouldn't have the deterioration but the deterioration alone that could happen anywhere. could happen when there's absolutely brand spanking new infrastructure. I I I think maybe >> I guess to follow your question then. Yeah, I guess in my mind TIFF could potentially help fix some of those infrastructure improvements which allow for >> property owner would decide whether they

[52:00] want to invest or not. So the statute says what it says and I think I just disagree with that as a factor. But but I also had a question about about lot layout and I know you know in other areas you know the like crossroads mall formerly crossroads mall that I was involved with the diagonal plaza like the lot layout was a real impediment to redevelopment but the only way it was going to be fixed is not the only way but potentially would be if the city contemplated condemnation. So I wonder whether you know how an urban renewal authority in alone affects the fact that we've got lots of hiddy pigly lots that are in separate ownership and nobody can agree on what to do. You know, we could have an urban renewal authority in a tiff and you'd still have all these people saying, "Nah, I'm good. I don't want to

[53:01] redevelop." >> Yeah. I mean, I guess the way I see this is the condition survey is meant to be a snapshot of the conditions today relative to the plans that have been approved in the area and vision for the area and are there conditions in that area that align with statute that hold back that vision and hold back private investment and so I agree that the question is well how do you fix it? Well, that's you know it's not easy to do. It's a public private partnership. you need the private sector to come to the table as well. But the I guess the point of the condition survey is not necessarily to say um we can absolutely fix these conditions. It's more to say that these conditions are present and therefore it warrants our you know considering this being an urban renewal plan. I think we can what an urban renewal plan would then do is look at what items we ultimately want to prioritize with

[54:00] the use of of tiff. Um what does the area look like? How will it meet our goals? Are there any kind of urgent um or imminent opportunities for redevelopment that we would be looking at? Is there a role of urban renewal in that? That type of thing will be spelled out as we start getting into the details of the play. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I get that you were just looking, do these statutory conditions exist? And yes, they do, but we could do this urban renewal authority and still have totally illogical flot lines. >> Yeah. No, it's it's a I think it's worth stating to the board that's always a risk with with any type of endeavor like this, but especially with urban renewal uh plan areas. I mean there's a host of them throughout the state where they put one and I mean I'm sure Bill can talk about a lot of them since he's on you know TCI works with so many of them but they put up a plan and years go by nothing happens right so I do think it you raised really good points how can we if you do want to go forward with

[55:01] Boulder Junction how can you be very intentional to make sure that like we are remediating this blight so that we're getting the outcomes that we want because it's not just enough to say X marks the spot private sector like yeah it's here and then you sit back and hopefully it changes I think there's a there's a graph most of my questions were just answered but one question just related to phase one you mentioned all the public investment that helped enable phase one and I was just curious what was the nature of that investment >> speech >> sure yeah so I think one of the big differences is in phase one compared to phase two is that the kind of catalyst for the original buildout of phase one was a lot on the corner 30th burl that the city owned. So we were able to attract partners for certain type of redevelopment on on that lot and then

[56:01] the public investment came from mostly the use of general improvement districts there. Um so that facilitated in part um a partnership to develop a park garage and then there's some um transit um transportation demand management programming alongside of that general improvement district. So those are some of the uh public improvements. Otherwise the kind of vision for how the um the structure of the streets and the infrastructure were paid for by development through um house properties to be developed through through that area. So it's kind of the initial we had land catalyzed it through the initial project set a very clear vision and implementation plan for as development came in set the zoning etc and then supplemented with the use of general improvement districts. So some of what Regan was speaking to of looking at the conditions in phase two was to say we don't have that kind of public land to be able to to spur development. It's

[57:00] probably not going to be enough for general improvement district. At least there's not a value to ask property owners to kind of go down that road. So, what are other tools available? >> Any other questions? >> Yeah. Yeah. Another tools question to Claire's point. Does the city still have the power to use condemnation to assemble? >> Is that in the that that's determined in the bylaws of the authority? >> Is that so? We're having two questions here, right? You're asking does the other real authority have >> Well, yeah, essentially. Right. >> Okay. So, I mean, by statute, it does. I'm not going to speculate on whether or not that's a part of the plan because we're not at that point yet, >> right? But I mean, the tool still exists. >> Yeah. The governmental authorities under the statute have very constrained, but they do have the ability to condemn property. >> Okay. This hasn't happened in a long time. >> As far as I know, yes. >> Often times, sir, it's written out of the plan. Yeah. these days is that eminent domain which can typically be in an urban plan. Again, there's powers of the plan. Um oftent times communities

[58:01] will say no, we don't want this plan to even have it. I will say because it does relate to the condition survey. If the desire is to use this plan, you have to have at least five statutory blood factors. >> Any other questions? Yeah, Carl, >> I have two. I'll make them short. One is does what happens in phase two phase one? >> I would hope so. >> I Well, I'm saying the other way. Is phase two dragging down >> the economic value of phase one? >> That's a good question. Um, and then Mark, feel free to chime in. I mean, here's my opinion on it. If an urban renewal plan is done correctly, it should catalyze development, catalyze economic activity. Um, while we didn't study phase one as part of this conditioning survey, I know Elliot and I have had conversations about vacancy

[59:00] rates and it's staggering the amount of apartment and and office vacancy throughout phase one. And this is all to read about there. So, I think what when I >> Yeah, that's why I was wondering the success. Yeah, I >> that's argued that's stated yeah in this report. >> It's a good point and I don't know what's driving it. I mean there's a lot of reasons throughout the state of Colorado that we're seeing vacancy increase and and it doesn't have to just be you know this plan or Boulder. But I will say that like I think the hope here is that Boulder Junction phase two if it were to develop that it would have kind of symbiotic relationship with phase one that you would be able to see not just new development phase two but that phase one and see you know greater activity more people renting out those apartments more businesses coming in that's the hope >> yeah may kind of add on to that um so Junction from a development standpoint is fully developed phase one um so from From the aesthetics point, it is certainly successful.

[60:00] >> It has been economically successful. >> So that's a great question. So co really took a toll due to the number of offices that are available in that space. Um and the absorption of Twitter for instance was over there and we saw what happened with Twitter and that was one of our largest tenants. Um, so it was kind of hit with a a I don't want to use the word perfect storm, but it was hit with a situation where you had COVID and you lost some anchor tenants and that's kind of one of the reasons why it's off its vacancies. I don't I don't know if it's necessarily attributed to the lack of development in phase two. I think more just the economic conditions that existed at that time. Something else that happened was the RTD bus station that was there actually closed down for a relatively long period which meant that one of the tools that we utilize in the general improvement district was more difficult to access. Um so the good news is RTD is now operating again out

[61:01] of that station. There is now a confirmed plan for the front range passenger rail. As long as that plan gets confirmed from the state level, um that that will actually be one of the main that will be Boulders's station. >> What's the time horizon on that? >> 2029 is when they anticipate the six first routes, if you will, from Denver to Fort Collins to be operating. Um that is a whole other conversation we can have. But I think what all of this is kind of leading to is that there's a lot of opportunity in phase two and to use lack of a better term to strike quiet the iron's hot um given all of those upcoming conditions but also knowing that um there's other things in the economy and I I'm trying to not use the the sword here but with Sundance coming um there's other opportunities as well

[62:00] for some of development that may also play key roles into that economic development. >> I thought the sword was bold or slooh. >> That's that's that's a debatable other one. >> It's it's not slow. >> We got debate about it. >> Yeah. >> Oh, really? >> Well, it's definitely not slow. >> Definitely not slow. It is a question. >> Yeah. So actually I think >> so sorry did you >> well I had a second question. >> Okay why don't you why don't you finish >> okay but I I don't want to take up too much time on this second question is kind of the flip side of this which is the is the underlying drive for for phase two the pearl art center or is that kind of one of the reasons we're looking at this or is that like the driving force? you know, I can start and maybe Andy, you can add to this. Hey,

[63:01] it's a factor. I mean, we've had Boulder Junction, our plan, TBAT, in place for a long time. Uh the improvement analysis that uh Regan mentioned goes back 18 months that that pointed out that GIS probably weren't the right tool, that we needed to look at other things like urban removal in the area that predated um any awareness of of the proposal for Pearl Arts District. That being said, I think knowing that there is a a potential major investment in this area is an opportunity and kind of a reason to um for us to engage with uh prospective developers in that way. Um and I don't know if you have some experience in kind of that area. >> Yeah, I I can say that it's definitely all of the above for why study in this area. Um just a couple things. one, this is a broader area and that's on purpose, right? It's we we're looking at everything that's phase 2, not just the

[64:00] plural arts district parcels. With that said, it doesn't h this board has a lot of say over what are the boundaries of this area. It's difficult to make the boundaries bigger if we didn't study it, right? But since we studied all this area and looked at all the lighting factors, you could shrink the the area down. I say that because strategically and and this commissioner goes back to your your point about how do you solve some of these problems, right? You don't have any urban plan area when it's first establishes and over time if nothing gets developed there's no tax increment, right? We don't collect off of the existing taxes, reflect off of what's new. So oftent times strategically the best way to go about creating a plan is knowing that there's development interest in an area but then testing you know does this development actually need incentives or does this development move forward and we're able to leverage some of those incremental revenues to solve other problems throughout the area to facilitate more development. So I I

[65:02] would say that strategically it's very beneficial for Bura to be studying this area knowing that there's this development that's being proposed. I think the impact report in later stages of this will have to evaluate how much can this development actually generate and does it need any revenue to move forward. But that's that feasibility piece because a big thing with urban with urban renewal is this concept of a but for you know proposition. It's not in statute but it's best practice. It's like but for your efforts as a board but for this plan this development or these improvements would not have occurred you know so we always have to meet that threshold. >> One of clarification could you explain I'm not familiar with this Pearl Arts District is that the area east of Foothills along Pearl to the south >> it is >> I don't even know I've read about it a lot but I don't know the boundaries. It's a proposed development within this study area.

[66:00] >> Correct. >> It's where Cenita Brewing. >> Oh, got right now. Just to clarify, we >> the city has received so they have gone through concept review at the city so far to get feedback on their proposal. In that proposal, uh the developers have said that they are going to be seeking uh metro district financing and urban financing. >> Okay. >> And so we what we haven't seen yet, we have been in converations with the developers. We have not seen the the numbers behind that yet. Um, so as Andy mentioned, a next step would be to look at the numbers on our end, get an understanding, sit down with them on their end. That would eventually lead to a more formal negotiation on both of those fronts and eventually brought to the board. >> Oh, sorry. Let me go Chester, Claire. >> Yeah, we'll get you Nicole. >> So, um, excuse me, Carla mostly got in my question, which was about sort of how

[67:00] we arrived at this point. Um I I I will I think take this opportunity just to ask so the memo says that we're asked to evaluate whether the evidence presented by the study supports a finding these conditions exist. So that's you know what you've presented on and then also that it substantially impairs or arrests the sound growth of the municipality and constitutes an economic or social liability. Is that the next phase or is that something we're trying to get at hermit today? >> That's in statute. >> Yeah, that's statutory language. It has a lot to do with police power and that's just kind of how it's phrased, you know, the men that the menace to society to. >> Okay. So, so with with that in mind though, like something we should consider today is about this impairment >> and like like whether this area is sort of like substantively impairing. >> Yes. >> Okay. Do do you want to speak either of you? I mean, I can, but I'd rather Well, I mean to add Yeah. Absolutely. The consideration statute. >> Yeah. You know,

[68:01] >> practically speaking, I'd say um and not to editorialize, but just as as you're looking at the at the objective findings, Yeah. there needs to be both a finding of presence and that it's impeding the city's plans and that in itself like the the conflict with executing the plan is considered to be that sort of second factor. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So I I mean I guess with with that in mind and the and the way the statue is written around like social liability. So I went and drove around the area yesterday. I talked from the friend who's a commercial artist who works people there. I mean I would sort of argue that there are occupants of that area. It's an underoccupied area but there are occupants of that area who are there because it is a relatively affordable place in our city. And so something that we maybe could consider as an authority is the extent to which that is a social life or you know what are what are the ways that this is not just a liability but it's also an asset to the city in its current form

[69:01] and to what extent you know are the ways that it is um you know according to the criteria like you know weighing against the asset that it provides which is in some sense is a a a place that you know affordable arts commercial etc spaces like can exist or soccer etc. So so I would I if that's on the table today I think it's worth us noting as well. I think it's a good question and I I think displacement is certainly as you know probably not within the purview of what you're considering today that would be whether or not to create an area and whether or not the kind of tradeoffs are ultimately worth it. I I think in just looking at you know some of the the factors right that um you know there would be kind of x million dollars in public infrastructure that would be needed to make that area better even if we're not talking about kind of major

[70:00] redevelopment. there's a major flood project that the city would do someday but doesn't have the funding and it it doesn't kind of rise to the list of priorities and storm water fund to to do that. So that's not on the horizon. So so then you start getting into the the but four that Andy was mentioning right that we have not seen redevelopment proposed in the area. the one on the table or at least that has gone through concept review is saying it is it is not viable on the public sector on the private sector alone without some type of assistance including that for the project and so that's the kind of the consideration is looking at the report that that Andy put together and deciding whether that meets the criteria once we get to that stage of analysis where you see the financials we talk about what might change over time and where those investments might go if we are to use TIFF. That's what the board will have to weigh is ultimately is that

[71:00] is that the right tool should we establish an area move forward. So I I think you're hitting at the right tension there. Um but I think you know we're really just looking at we have not seen that kind of level of investment in the area whether what are the reasons for that and and that's what's in in your report. >> Yeah. Yeah. And if I could just add a quick point because I think it's a really good point and what Mark just said is critical like that's kind of the if you were to form this area that's part of the fun part of like how do we leverage some of these tools to make sure that maybe these artists or you know entrepreneurs that have moved there how how do they continue to grow? >> I going around the area I I agree there's really cool properties there. There's like a giant I think adult playground like that you know and then also Boulder soccer and you know all of those things are great. That's why I said at the start we're not calling any particular property or business blighted. We're looking at the area as a whole and are there conditions that may be holding back you know that area. And I'm sure many of those businesses if we were to

[72:00] interview them individually is there something that you would like to see done you know on the roads sidewalks is there an expansion that you want to do with your business? you can't afford currently. I'm sure you get a lot of feedback about that. >> I will kind of add too from an economic development standpoint being very conscious that the kind of this type of businesses and zoning um it's not prevalent in Boulder. So considering that as we consider this URA and especially the plan um in particular those are the types of things that you know we want to be aware of and how do we kind of retain because yeah you can't have an an economy operate solely on office spaces. you understand that there's a a diversity that is necessary uh for an economies to be successful and knowing that this is one of those diverse locations. It's also something that can be considered when it comes to our economic development plan but also um the urban renewal plan. Yeah, Claire. Oh, I had a different

[73:01] question, but I just want to speak to that concern that you brought up with um I was on the planning board in 2003 uh here and when you know the first concept plan came through for what at the time was called I think the transit village and we had a lot of conversation about the fact that this is one of the few places in Boulder where you can have this light service industrial and everybody mentioned Earl's saw shop as their favorite place to go get their chainsaw sharpened and what's going to happen when you know there's nowhere to get your chainsaw sharpened in Boulder anymore and you have to go to Walmart. So it's, you know, that that's a concern and affordable space. I guess it for me it's so the city of Boulder already they adopted an economic development plan. They know what they want to do here. I may have made a different decision if I were on council, but that decision's been made. So um yeah, so I'm not gonna we can't revisit

[74:01] that. I will say for me one of the benefits of of a urban renewal authority in TIFF versus a development authority is you're not increasing propert taxes. So you're not going to you're not going to drive them out other than the fact that their property values will increase. But the question I had was um but to your point I guess Andy about um about we'll only have revenue to invest in infrastructure improvements when those improvements are are done you know I mean when when there's redevelopment so how do we get the money is there do do urban renewal authorities have bonding authority and they can bond against the tip is that and does that require that's debt so under chabber. Does that require a vote or >> Okay, >> that's one of the reasons they're very attractive for these types. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[75:00] If I might just really quickly your point on light industrial is a good one and I think and this is part of the broader context that I think we can provide before the next meeting is that um in our comp plan that's coming there is a lot of talk about light industrial being kind of a hub in its own way. The East Boulder sub community plan talks about light industrial being really important and there are actually areas in that plan that say they should not be areas of change and we should really preserve the light industrial to the greatest extent possible. That that area is a little bit different than this area west of west of Foothills. And so I I think to Cla's point, it's just that the plan goals are a little different in Boulder Junction and why we're considering a narrow area in that way. It does not mean that there's not displacement considerations that we need to think about, but I think the broader context of like where we are trying to preserve light industrial versus other areas might be helpful as we get into the the plan conversation if we go that

[76:00] way. >> I'll get started. >> This is kind of related to everybody's question so far. I mean, if we think of think of the city of Boulder, a lot of the city of Boulder has been in a flood plan. A lot of the city of Boulder has inconverted sidewalks and potholes and all of the things. And I I just feeling like are we putting all of these indicators here because we are going to ultimately get to condemnation is that like how do we make sure the city residents are not feel like everywhere is up for blight determination because of the statute is so I feel like pretty aggressively applied in this very large area and what degree to which I'm still funding like the arts district in conscience bay and Sundance and >> what It's it's like what are I would like to it feels like there is something like almost a foregone conclusion that we're trying to backward plan for and I would love to be really clear if that is the case and because like if we have guaranteed development with conscious

[77:00] bay and we're going to recoup that money right away will all of this changes the narrative for me to a significant degree and then I also just wonder like so if we prove agree that this is blighted because laws are really, you know, allow it to be um are we just on this train of like the next thing, the next thing the next thing because there are plans already in place that we I haven't had fully fleshed out in a way that um feels feels reasonable for me being super new to this particular conversation around bel I and others can feel free to to chime in. I there is no predetermined conclusion. I I think what we've tried to do as staff is set up this board um to be ready to go and we had our previous board um set up some of that with cost sharing agreements with the city authorizing some of the work with Pioneer to do some of that pre-work.

[78:00] Normally you would see that pre-work and have those conversations u but we kind of had to move in a parallel track to get the sport seated in the right way so that you could be in the position to consider new areas. And so normally you would get some of that pre-con conversation that you weren't afforded to and I appreciate the difficulty jumping into that conscious bay proposed project is is a part of this. Um but that is not a foregone conclusion. And if and if we felt if we were seeing something that they can execute that development without urban renewal without city intervention then I think we'd be having a very different conversation. I don't council Eric certainly speak to this as well. I think um you know council would be looking at some of these economic development tools in a different way if we felt like the development could happen on its own but each area will have to look at that independently that's a part of what the impact study is for and you know we want to engage in conversation and tap into your all's expertise as board and determining whether or not ultimately

[79:00] urban renewal is is appropriate for this area and others. So, so I hear you that conscious bay like because of the significant constraints for that part of that area, they they could they themselves could not move forward. They need this assistance to be able to move forward. And then and then I guess it's tangential related to some of like the business the business aspect of this like city is going to like evaluating the degree to which uh their other policies and ordinances are more or less business friendly to like help foster whatever development comes here in a significant way. Yeah, on the first point, yes, we there. So, like the flood um the Slooh project that's been alluded to that that's a project that needs to happen in order for the the concept that Conscious Bay has proposed um that that investment needs to happen in order to facilitate development. That's one example. There's kind of other public financing um that they've thrown out there until we see the numbers, but I don't can't answer that. But yes, generally that is what we've been told is that there needs to

[80:00] be some type of public investment to for that project to happen. And then as as Rean outlined, this is one of other tools and so I you know I know that we won't use urban in every area. We probably won't use it in all four of just the areas that um we put up on on screen. And so, um, you know, I I think what we can do because I I think there's an interest and it's probably helpful for this board to make decisions is to provide a little bit more of that broader context of like where is the city really considering using economic development, where do we not feel like we don't need to, so on and so forth. Um, I think we can do that before our next meeting. >> Thank you, >> Y. Yeah. Thanks for your patience. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, this question is for Andy. I was reading your report on page four, the first line, the way, and I'm not trying to preempt anything. Um, I know it's the

[81:01] condition survey we're talking about. But your statement that feasibility and community alignment remain are a concern. Are you able to add more color to that statement? Because that's a very strong statement. Yeah. So I'm just pulling up the report now. So you said that on top of page four just so I have this correct. Feasibility and community community alignment however remain are remain a concern. And I went on to say that there's development challenges study area that complicate projects and add to construction costs. And I list what those may be. Um, and then in addition to ensuring feasibility, the Boulder community seeks to attract development that supports community priorities. So, I think what I was getting at there is that tension is a lot what we had discussed earlier. There's this multi-deade planning effort in part of the city of Boulder with TAT

[82:00] and um phase one, phase two where there's this vision for how this area should look and how that's going to align with the community building priorities and clearly there's something holding back that vision especially in phase two. So that's where I talk about the feasibility. So that's what I mean by the concerns. That's the kind of the connective tissue between what I believe are these conditions that are holding back feasibility. That feasibility is also tied to this broader community development vision in the area. I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's what I was going for on that page. >> Okay, Patley. Pat, >> thank you for your question. Katherine, >> um, I just had a question about how the the geography was established. We keep calling it Boulder Junction phase 2, but it's like bigger than Boulder Junction phase 2 and it doesn't have 2A in it. And so, how was this established? Do we have the

[83:00] ability to expand it if we need to? I heard you can contract it, but will we also have the ability to expand it? >> I I can talk to Mark Elliot, Rean. Feel free to chime in. Um I think you know there was actually a series of you know conversations regarding you know what is the study area. Um this is where I think our company and staff landed given I would say a large part of it is the flood plane. So, especially that stuff that was east of Foothills, um that again is is very impacted by the 100red-year flood plane and would be uh also impacted with the storm water facilities that are being proposed where the flood plane would be uh essentially removed or or mitigated throughout that area. So I I think the thought process was let's cast a wide net the condition survey and make sure that we're capturing all the possible parts that major infrastructure improvements could you know impact and again the thought being the only way to get to these major

[84:02] infrastructure improvements is probably with some type of funding mechanism. I think it should be said that an urban renewal plan and their tiff, you can't spend the tiff outside the plan era, right? So, you got to be careful about the boundaries because the boundaries are too small and there's some type of public improvement that is outside of it and you've established it really can't go back and change it. Um, so it's just I think I think that was the strategic move. I don't know if there's other areas that you think we missed. Obviously, we're all here to cure it. The only problem is that we have to amend the condition survey to include those areas. >> Just a follow-up question, the distribution of the conditions when when I look at page eight, you know, it's just a dramatically different distribution and concentration of some of the conditions when you look west versus east of foothills. Does that have any impact on our ability to move

[85:01] forward either with future directions to city staff on planning or some of these tools that we've been discussing the fact that only one of the four conditions might exist east? >> Yeah. So, this is it's really a policy decision, right? Like the reason I mentioned before that that distribution gets thin on that side is because really from our perspective it's largely the flood plane that's impacting that side of of the highway. Um does that mean that that side can't be included? No. I mean statute literally just says if you find four or more factors within your area then you can deem it eligible for treatment. it doesn't have any in insight into frequency of the factors or how clustered they have to be. That's more frankly it's the board's decision just and I don't want to set I am not an attorney so you guys can correct me if I'm wrong on this. Uh but it's it's a legislative decision of finding a play. This is why the board looks at these

[86:00] reports and say yeah we think this is it. If you have an issue with that boundary as is, by all means, like part of the statutory uh criteria is it meets the eligible blighting factors, but it's also drawn as narrowly as possible. So, if you think it's not drawn as narrowly as possible because of what you just said, that's that's a valid. >> No, I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page in terms of understanding that point because it sounds like budget. I guess I don't know what the budget is. We don't have specific details there, but if that's something that we have to concern ourselves with, maybe focusing the efforts might be relevant. But >> yeah, and I think what um if you all um are determined that next step that the impact report would get at some of the the numbers so we'd be able to understand kind of what investment wise we'd be able to do and we can play with the boundaries to to make some recommendations to that end. All right. Are there any other last

[87:02] questions? So, I'll I'll just share as chair. Um, obviously I have opinions on all of this and it was really hard for me to not to not keep jumping up and trying to say stuff. Um, so when we're having our discussions, I will do my best to leave any co comments or questions that I have till the very very very end and really only make them pertinent or things that like I would be aware of that weren't covered otherwise. So I have three um Andy Mark I I guess I'll leave it to whoever might want to comment to these, but the three things um that you could speak to is one uh Claire had asked about bonding. Could you speak briefly about the value of of being able to do developer agreements to access the availability of TIFF early and not necessarily go into bonding and what that looks like? The second point would be to speak to the URA statute where there are accommodations for relocation

[88:01] and how that's built in. Uh going to some of the questions that came up about certain areas that were under the u the the study area. Um so yeah just to speak to relocation elements and then last the third of the the third would be the role of the board in finding factors of of economic development versus what's being asked of today. Did you get I think so. >> Okay. >> All right. I'll go first and if I forgot anything jump in. Um so first you asked a question about I think Bill uh bonding versus developing development >> just so that everyone's clear and we're a little bit that's that's that's in the future right it is >> but if you were to form this plan and authorize TIF the next step and this actually goes to your question about foregone conclusions right like you as a board urban renewal authority would have the ability to to leverage tax increment finance it doesn't mean

[89:00] that you have to share Right? And it doesn't mean that you have to share it with a particular entity or with for a particular project. That's all negotiable. So you can enter into these revenue sharing agreements. One of the typical ones is bond. That's usually tied to a metro district where you've got tiff flowing to the metro district. Metro district can issue debt. As uh commissioner Le said, you can also issue debt through the UR. What Bill is ask talking about is that sometimes you have a business that's in an area that wants to redevelop and that business knows, hey, I'm going to be generating new sales and property taxes. Can I get that money back? Essentially, and what the URA can do is enter into a development reimbursement agreement. So, you're not issuing any debt, but you're saying, "Look, we we recognize there's a gap in your proforma or that you have something that's preventing you from moving forward. we're going to sign an agreement that your next 25 years of property taxes that you generate are going to come back to you at the end of each year. So, you reimburse what that business or what that development

[90:02] creates. Um, that keep that that mitigates your risk as you don't have to go out to bonds for it. It's uh it puts it more on the private sector and they have to figure out how to make the most of that money. Did I answer your question? Sure. Um, all right. So number two, >> uh number two was the URA statute for accommodations for relocation. Yeah. So there is federal urban rental law that says if you displace anybody, you have to basically find them in adequate um an adequate place to live or relocation. I think in my experience, I haven't really seen that too much with displacement with urban renewal plans. I don't know if you have experience with that, >> but that's a use that's a that's qualified use of funds. >> You can use tiff to to help relocate those businesses to those people. >> Yeah. >> And I will say that there's an overarching urban renewal law that has nothing to do with Colorado's urban renewal that if you displace people like you have to find place to get that's

[91:01] like federal. >> Cool. And then third, um, just the role of the board and finding factors that and and al editorializing here. Um, I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of questions that are more education related because we're all relatively new to this or this is the first plan that Boulder's had in a while. Um, I think it's totally great to ask those questions because truthfully, one of the things I see worst around the state is boards that are not educated making decisions that have real impact on land use and real impact on city financing. Right? So, being educated and asking questions about that is super super important. I think that's absolutely paramount like as we're still sort of forming our understanding of this. But going forward, it's also very very important to understand that there are statutory requirements of what we can and can't consider and where we should and should not sort of dip our toes during certain conversations. And so as a board to try and keep things on track,

[92:00] there's a time and a place for certain conversations like statutoily. And as we get more sophisticated about knowing what's coming up, I think it's important to like have the right venue and the right timing for the right conversations. Not to say they're not relevant now, but going forward, that's something I'm kind of keeping an eye on. So, with all that being said, Andy, um, legal, anyone, if you might kind of speak to what is our charge today and what is, what are we supposed to be doing? I >> think your charge is pretty narrow. Feel free to add to this. I I think some of the context around economic development is something that's heard and I think can just be helpful that you all feel comfortable understanding what the place is of of the authority in our broader city plans for economic development. So I think that's fair. Um, but your point is well taken of making sure that you all understand exactly what the purview is and what the charge is. And for this particular item, your your charge is fairly narrow and simply reviewing the the condition survey and

[93:01] determining whether or not those are um accepted under the the definition like not agree with that and point out actually based on the meetings law you are on the agenda item for the condition study. That is basically all that should be discussed and decided is in this agenda item. Not that all of this information cannot be shared with you and we're happy to have these discussions. Just want to bring it back to the concept of the agenda that was publicly posted. >> All right. Um there isn't a motion but I think we are probably in line for a motion and then probably discussion after that. Is there a motion? >> Yeah. there. Should I make that motion? >> Is anyone willing to make a motion? Okay, there. >> Okay. I move that the Boulder Urban Renewal Authority Board accept the findings of the Boulder Junction phase 2 condition survey, specifically that the study area meets the statutory criteria for blight as defined in CRS 31-25-103

[94:02] and recommend that staff proceed with the development of an urban renewal plan for the area. >> Second. Second. Okay, now discussion amongst the board. So, I know there's been lots of questions. We can certainly bring in everyone who's who's here as well, but this is certainly a place for us to talk amongst ourselves. Go ahead, CL. >> Yeah, I mean, what I'll just say about the motion is that the questions I had were probably actually me correlate correlating with the statute itself and the decision that the legislature has made about what constitutes blight and makes an area eligible. I think it's pretty clear from the analysis that you know we this area meets the requisite for criteria. I I may not you know I might have made a different judgment about what should be necessary to use tiff but based on the statuto criteria I think I I will be voting for this motion.

[95:02] >> Any other comments questions discussion? Yeah, >> I guess I I will clarify. I'm going looking at the statute right now and um the statute is written with a bunch of ore clauses and so actually like the only thing we do need is that it meets four of these criteria. It doesn't need to constitute economic or social liability. It doesn't meet >> that's one of the ores. >> Well, right. So it just needs one of those four things I think. >> And these four are one of those four. Yeah, it's a little little confusing, but so with that in I think I think that if if it needed to include all of those, I would be voting against this motion, but given that it's only one of them, my thought process is that yes, it it does meet those criteria. >> And to the sake of educational, like because I think what you're bringing up is very very important for right now. Is there anyone who is unclear about what the statute says for what we need to be doing right now? because this is definitely a good time to be be sure that you understand what

[96:02] you're saying yes or no to. >> I just have one one other question. >> Are we allowed to kind of like legally reply rely upon this report? So if somebody were to come and be like that report is not accurate but we're relying on it. Is there is there any >> what do you mean by risk in this context I guess is my question because you are allowed to review this accept the conclusions and move forward if you feel that it is adequate that's your role as the board here is to review this decide whether or not you accept it um though in terms of risk you're not going to be personally sued that's always >> I I was just more asking like in general how we get these reports and nothing to say about Andy, but but what if somebody were to just like have fraudulently put

[97:02] this together, but this is what we're relying on. >> Well, in the future, you would be able to review any additional evidence that comes forward, you could revise your recommendation. This still has to go to the city council to be finally accepted as an urban plan. So anytime in that period of time if there is some new evidence that comes to light that you want to revise this plan it can come back we can alter your recommendation or put forward a new recommendation. Obviously, we would need to coordinate that the staff and we'd have to discuss how that would go forward, but you can you are not locked into a path after this vote that cannot be changed. That makes sense. and and I'll just allow it, but um to give you all some comfort that staff acting on behalf of Europe did a competitive bidding process for firms that work in this space and reviewed multiple proposals and ultimately um vetted Joe's pioneer and adding to commission report. So um we did our due diligence to try to bring a consult in

[98:01] that would provide quality report that you all could rely on. >> And I can send you a bad one if if they don't I will I will redact all the names. Yeah, there's examples of bad report. >> Yeah, clear. >> One question. If we approve this motion and the city goes and does a urban renewal study, whatever the next step is, does that prelude looking at these other areas as a practical matter given staff, you know, uh availability and budgets? >> It does not I I think, you know, practically um we're likely not to bring you another condition study in your next meeting. Hey, I think at your at your next meeting we likely see the impact report um for Boulder Junction um and we'll kind of go from from there. I think we can provide some idea at your next meeting on what the sequencing might be um in consideration of other

[99:01] areas. >> It says I haven't looked at any other plans or any other options. So it's hard to say yeah go ahead with that one guys when I don't know where the tradeoff is. Yeah, I would say this one is it's been in the works in terms of knowing that it was a priority. Um, it was a little bit more ripe than the other areas. Um, we can put together a little bit more information on on how we anticipate the timing on the on the other potential areas and what the board would would discuss. >> Can I just say real quick, it's not really a zero sum game, right? You're doing these plans like, you know, you're not not limited like statute doesn't say you can only have five, right? you know or or like you can theoretically have as many plans as you want but remember every one of these plans you have to negotiate with taxing partners. So that is a limiting factor because you know the county and school district and the city they're going to be like well how much are we sharing you know as as we get more and more plans. I was just thinking more the

[100:00] practicality. Yeah. >> Of the city staff >> and the legal people, you know, all our resources and our budget resources. >> You can't look at I understand. >> I mean on a practical matter and like no offense to Andy, but like we also don't need to hire a consultant to make these decisions. like we could I I think theoretically any of us could actually bring something to the table and we could find as a board that it constitutes an economic or social liability and then use evidence that we've collected. So it's there are different probably ways of going about this. >> So I'm going to bristle with that. >> Yeah, I'm going to >> that makes me scratchy. I understand your I understand your point. I Yeah, I I totally understand your point, but I I think it's a matter of good practice. Um it's always worth having folks who are experts in the field bring us and and and the other thing to that though and just functionally this is how the board works a lot is that this board maybe

[101:00] versus other boards in Boulder will have a lot of behind thes scenes work between consultants and the staff before it even gets to us. Right? So like we do kind of have to lean on the staff's expertise that we're only seeing things that are that really sort of pass muster. Right? We we can suggest based on what we find. I think that's the right implementation, but making decisions based on that are probably not the right angle. >> Any other questions or comments on on the motion that is still under consideration? >> Just want to make sure I understand what we're approving. So, this this is a a step I know. Sure. >> This is a step towards the next step. We're not there's there's no specific action that comes out of this other than developing the impact plan which we would consider at a future meeting. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. Mark, did you That's okay. >> Great. Anyone else? Okay. Uh, closing discussion. I think I'd be in line for a vote. Did we roll call vote obviously for things like

[102:01] this? Yeah. >> Yes, we did. >> I mean, I was I'm sorry. Can someone help facilitate that? We'll call those. >> We'll just go we'll just go around the room again if that uh works. Catherine. >> Yes. >> Michael. >> Yes. >> Stephanie. >> Um you can do we have our bylaws with that. Um unless it specifies specifically I think uh abstensions are considered a yes vote unless we have something in our bylaws. >> So you can abstain it will be recorded as a yes vote. Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes.

[103:00] >> Chica. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And just point of order. What was your vote again? Chris. >> Say Chris. Yes. Okay. Got it. Chris. Yes. Okay. So, the motion carries. All right, thank you all. That was a good presentation. Thank you, Andy, for the work. Thank you, Regan and staff for putting all that together. I know this has been quite a bit of work to get even just to today. So, thank you for all of that. Um, let me pull up the agenda. Ah, thank you. Okay. Um, new business. Is there any new business to introduce? I assume that that would be staff to in introduce if there was >> it could be staff or >> we do not have any new business. >> I have a question. >> Yeah. >> So, we've talked several times about budgetary restraints and

[104:02] >> if we could have some type of presentation around what those are, timelines, how the agreement then between the city and bureau works. >> Yep. >> So, that that helps us plan. >> Yes, we can do that. Um and briefly, we we do have a a cost sharing agreement with um the city in place. And so, um for any tiff areas that are created, we're able to reimburse the city for expenses, but we can share a little bit more about um so far what we've spent and what we anticipate >> and what what constraints we have. >> Thank you. >> All right. Is there any other new business? Okay. I I uh chair's privilege. I guess I have a couple of things I want to say because this is probably the only time to say it. Um but first off, I guess thank you all for your votes as being chair. Um Urban Renewal Authority, like the authorities themselves and the boards are no joke. Like I've seen them

[105:01] go south in a lot of different places. Um and like I said before, it's really around like education for sure. But the other thing that I feel like I really want to focus on is being able to facilitate a good functional board, right? There's going to be a lot of different interests. And I mean, this is Boulder. Like we're not just like a lot of interests, but like a lot of interests with PhDs, right? So like I know that each of you brings something to the table and these boards work when each of your perspectives is heard because there can very well be an upcoming plan of development or something like that where somebody's local insight or somebody's educational insight is really valuable to the rest of the board. Right? So part of what I see my role as chair being is helping to facilitate a platform for you all to ask your questions. But that all being said, I'm also kind of a policy wonk and an administrative wonk and running a good

[106:00] board on time and not taking a million hours every time is trying to answer our questions uh appropriately. When it's information that can be shared, I'm really going to be big about trying to have you tell me and I'll have the staff share my phone number. I want you to tell me when you have questions and see how I can help work with staff to facilitate information sharing before this meeting, right? Because ultimately, as as death by Meetings has said, the meetings are not the place to learn what you need to learn. It's to discuss what we don't know, right? And if we're able to come together and discuss things that have an uncertain outcome, that's the best use of our time, right? If we're coming here for an hourong presentation on some of the things that like background on e economic development, we can set a time for that, but that's not a great use of our meeting time. You know what I mean? So, I want to do my best to understand what your what your questions are, what you want preparation

[107:01] help with, things like that. help me get that to the staff and have that shared with everybody because if you're asking that question, others are probably doing that as well. And as a as a chair, I see that as part of like what my role is, right? So, the last thing is to say like there are ways to screw this up as a as as an authority in the sense that like you can be sued. Um, that orientation part was not a joke and especially urban renewal. I think we all know the horror stories or if you don't know them I can tell you um where either the city or the authority itself has come under fire especially in a very hot political climate right now. The best way that I've seen to avoid that is to try and build trust every time we meet. We need to be building trust with our constituency, with our development partners, with our with our stakeholders. And we do that with transparency and doing things the right way, right?

[108:02] So, as a chair, I will do my best to make sure that that's what we're bringing to the table. If at any point you have any questions about that or if you want to talk to me further about what does that mean or like, you know, am I doing anything wrong, I'm open to feedback, I want I want to be here to help and facilitate. But that's what I feel like I'm going to bring to the table as chair. Any questions or comments about that? I >> think I would just add one thing on the open records laws um about the number of you all meeting together. Yeah. >> Yeah. Don't do that. >> Two or less. >> So, just to reiterate that if you do get together, it is kind of considered a a meeting that needs to be disclosed on records. >> Yep. >> Don't hang out together. >> Don't hang out together. Sorry, guys. I hope your apprentice >> the same talk about bureau. >> Yeah. But but all that to be said again I get but I I'm not trying to gatekeep by any means access to staff. If you

[109:00] have questions please do. But as chair it would be very helpful for me to understand if you have questions for staff or if there's other concerns that you have so that I can kind of keep the temperature on what's going on and prepare our meetings to be the most constructive as possible. Make >> sense? I'll just echo. Thank you for that bill and I'll just echo for those that haven't been on the the city board staff does welcome your questions in advance happy to to answer that and provide those answers to the board as it's helpful. >> Thank you. >> I think we elected right chair right vice chair. So thank you. >> All right. Um next is upcoming meeting schedule. >> I know we're already over um we're likely to need another meeting. It'd be nice to get on a regular meeting cadence. Um, I don't think we'll need to meet monthly, but it might be good to have a meeting time available. So, we were looking at probably mid to late June as our next meeting date. Um, I don't know if we want to just follow up again with a poll might be just the most

[110:02] efficient way and let's try to get a time that works for everybody. >> Okay. Yeah, that'll be distributed by staff and >> Yes. >> Right. Okay. Well, with that, I'd be in line for a motion to adjourn. So, move. >> All right. Second. >> There we go. >> All right. And we're done. Thank you guys for >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. The saints have a meeting on